Remember Paul Revere’s famous midnight ride where he raced through the countryside shouting "the British are coming, the British are coming"? Well, I kinda feel like that. With Christy taking some vaca time with the Peanut somebody has to keep sounding the alarm that the FISA vote could happen this week!
Everybody say it with me "No retroactive immunity for telcoms. No prospective immunity for telcoms. No basket warrants."
(Ahem, I can’t HEAR YOU! Try it again, in unison while I listen……… Ah, much better that time, but you still need practice.)
Here’s the scoop kids, if the telcoms get immunity, we are never going to find out for sure what the thing is that the President authorized that at least one judge seems to think was so flagrantly unconstitutional and illegal that its protestations of believing the President could authorize it do not even pass the blush test. Here’s Marcy on the latest on the AT&T case.
Now, I’ve advanced a theory about what it might be that was so black and white/ open and shut illegal that most of the top tier of DOJ was willing to resign over it. And I truly believe that for a guy like Comey to stage something that dramatic, it had to be a really clear violation, not a question of differing opinion.
The simple reality though, is if there is any kind of immunity, or having the government step in as the deep pocket for the telcoms, it’s all going to get swept under the rug.
It’s unlikely that most, or even few, of the legislators who will be voting on this bill have actually read it, much less understood it. Yah know. Like Joe Klein? [that last link is to a compilation of links for all the back and forth Glenn Greenwald did with Joe.] The links in this post should give you guys "digg" and "spotlight" fodder for every single day between now and the vote.
Go forth and Influence some opinions out there!!!!!
Related posts:
- Can Skittles help fix the PATRIOT Act and FISA?
- On PDB Day, a New Direction against Terrorism? John Brennan’s Coming Out Party?
- Rep. McGovern To Vote Against Supplemental
- Holder Refuses to Stand by Statements Saying Violating FISA Breaks the Law
- Senate Finance Delays Health Care Vote: Did Baucus Screw Wyden and Lose His Vote?
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Good morning, lhp!
Just putting 2 things side by side:
1. Here we are working hard to make sure intrusions on privacy do not occur without a warrant.
2. Meanwhile Facebook (and other companies?) are intruding on the privacy of people and broadcasting that for all to see!
This troubles me greatly.
Hiya, LHP. I am really getting obsessed with this FISA thing, thanks to FDL. Talk about shenanigans!
Good morning loosehead!
TheraP, I think they backed off. I quoted an announcement a couple of days ago from an email I received from MoveOn. I don’t think I kept it.
But IIRC this is at least the second time they’ve creeped up on our privacy and had to back down. I don’t use FB much and am rethinking the idea of having a profile up there.
Practicing:
[pretend these are all in caps]
No retroactive immunity for telcoms!
No prospective immunity for telcoms!
No basket warrants!
Well, how was that?
I agree, they did back off somewhat. But you cannot opt out of this entirely. It must be done purchase by purchase.
My concern is overall privacy. Not just what the govt might do.
The Facebook thing is a very bad precedent. I don’t use the place at all, but I am a concerned citizen – on behalf of the rights of all of us.
I read that facebook did a reversal on that info sharing. I can’t find the link. Will keep looking. Found it on google news.
Kos had a great piece up a week ago or so on how the Dems are speaking out of both sides of their mouths on this. In short, it is not clear where our own stand on this.
I’m registered to vote, just registered to be a firepuppy and will register my surprise at the new look. Oh yeah, I would also like to register my disapproval of the Bu$h Crime Family and everything they stand for.
As far as FISA goes, these guys got so many lies happening at once that it’s impossible to even speculate how far any denial applies. When it comes to lies, they’re like jugglers with too many balls in the air!
BTW, does anyone else think there are any Keriktor Issues with America’s Mayor Rood Dude Rudy?
Thank you.
(Ahem, I can’t HEAR YOU! Try it again, in unison while I listen……… Ah, much better that time, but you still need practice.)
You forgot to ask for the four-part harmony…
Which is why I stopped using Facebook.
I still have the page, I just don’t log into anymore.
So, FYI to anyone who sends me facebook messages–Don’t be offended, I’m never gonna see ‘em.
BTW, A source of frustration for the FBI (back in the days when we still had civil liberties) was that credit reporting companies knew more about us than they could find out w/o a warrant. Affinity cards, you know the ones popular in the 1990’s I had a Rugby association Master Card for a while. The kind that seemed like such a good idea because a couple pennies off each of your purchases went to your affinity group?
Did you think master card did that out of the goodness of their hearts? Nope it was a cheap and easy way to get folks to volunteer to have their spending tracked. The FBI knew that all this data was already being collected and analyzed, just not available for use to solve crimes.
Under such circumstances, the outrage expressed by Americans about loss of liberty rings a teensy bit hollow to them sometimes. We have been lulled into giving away most of our privacy by people who we never elected to anything.
Reclaiming your rights will involve taking on the market research industry as well.
I don’t think it matters all that much what the FISA provides, anymore than the prohibition against the CIA acting within the US kept it from acting within the US. If the telcoms lose they will sanitize their files or toss some underling to the wolves or both. They provide so much financial support to both sides, few Congresspeople will bite the hands that feed them.
jayt
Bb work for you? Sopranos are ready.
I’m still tryin’ to figure out how to get rid of the little blue “f”…. It says I’m logged out, but the “f” still shows up here.
Mornin’ all. enjoying a beautiful snowy morning here on the east coast
Bb work for you? Sopranos are ready.
Sure. I’m as bad in that range as any other, so let ‘er rip!
I’ve always been suspicious of those ubiquitous supermarket cards, too. Sure gives “someone” an easy way to track what you buy, and when. Most give you decent reductions on some items, but I wonder if we’re trading privacy for a few pennies off…
I thought the little blue “f” was a link to your facebook page
Someone said recently, that the congress is just a corporate management layer. If this is so,then they will go in the direction the wind blows.
I see plenty of harumping, and clearing of throats from the hill, but no one is getting on their overcoats and going out into the blizzard to do battle.
Hello, Exile – your voice’s register is quite pleasant. welcome. and yes, there seems to be a slight issue there!
Two alternatives to getting the “discount” associated with supermarket cards, while maintaing your anonymity.
1. In the country (Stop ‘n Shop) they have a store card that they swipe if you don’t have one of your own.
2. In the city, my son, who doesn’t worry about the privacy thing, got himself a card. I just use his.
Good morning LHP and all!
I’m almost played out with FISA, although I will be following the legislation this week. But I just got done watching the fireworks between Karl Rove and Chris Van Hollen. Geez, it was even more interesting than I thought it would be! Apparently Karl doesn’t like to be touched, and Chris is all touchy-feely. Talk about matching truth for bullshit! I knew it would be better than watching Huckabee!
There has been several legal actions [from memory] where consumers sued because they stores did NOT notify them that they had bought recalled food. The consumer’s lost. What I do is get a card without filling out a form, insist on it and ask the manager what they more – my business or my personal information? Also several my group of friends do is trade our store cards so that my friend in Portland OR is using my card and I am using theirs here in AZ.
Costco does send me a letter when something I buy is recalled.
Now if we can only get certain Democrats to represent
most of their constituents and not just a few large contributors.
I agree that defeating the immunity provision might eventually reveal what the illegal spying was about, but when talking to Congress, I think it’s also important to stress that we expect our telecom providers to maintain our privacy and not become spies for the government on every thing we do, say and read.
A major purpose of the original FISA was to give telecoms a shield against “unwarranted” requests from government, so that the telecoms could be our first line of defense against Big Brother. Immunity turns them into Big Brother’s Brother.
We need the telecoms to say “NO!” because we have no way of knowing what’s happening. It’s our privacy that’s being invaded, and we can’t find out when or why or how the information will be used, or by whom. So the first line of defense is the telecoms saying no to unwarranted requests.
If they give them immunity for saying “Yes” then we’ve lost our defense and they have no incentive to say No.
The telecoms not only violated FISA, they violated their contract with us to maintain our privacy, their obligation to say No against unwarranted requests. That’s why they can’t be given immunity.
I’m too lazy this AM to go searching for the link, but a week or so ago there was post about how (I think it was Homeland Securty) was tracking upticks in Falafel sales looking for terrorists.
Except that Iraqis and Afganis don’t eat falafel, Israelis and Palestinians eat falafel. It was very funny.
So, if you want to hav some fun and have some money to spare on charity, take your supermarket card and start buying outrageous amounts of middleeastern food items, always using your card and always on the same day/time of the week.
Donate food to soup kitchen (unless you like Middle Eastern food). The reason you always do it the same tme is to make the idea of setting up a surveillance seem cheap and easy. Wait for FBI to show up (they will be relatively easy to spot.) Walk up to agent with a gift wrapped box of falafel mix and give a big hug.
I missed it. I like Van Hollen, but am sorry to hear he was willing to touch Rove. I’m not particularly squimish, but jeez. That’s something you would clean off your shoe with a long flat stick, throuw it away and wipe soles on grass.
P.S. What exactly is the theory behind now not being
able to edit comments after submitting them?
If Preview was my friend, Edit This Comment was my SO.
It seems clear that the telcoms are the main source of dish for the alphabets and anyone else who can use data mining of telecom databases.
In the old days it was just telephone communications, but lordy now the telcoms handle the internets and that’s where most of the juice is to be found these days.
The bomb, I suspect, is that they have been data mining your internet activity, may read your emails, surfing and purchases. Almost everyone these days has an enormous internet footprint and so they become open books for the Alphbets or anyone who wants to blackmail.
And they have been doing this to everyone including Ds and Rs and so forth. And now they want to sweep it under the rug and frame some new spook law under FISA.
Screw facebook and myspace. Why not set up a web cam and send it right over to the NSA? E-networking was the best thing since sliced bread for the spooks. It is mana from heaven.
Holy cow! We’ve been at Mayo Clinic, battling the cancer that has taken up residence in David’s body — an uninvited intruder, to say the least. And finally today, I am able to take a breather and come back to FDL. Only FDL is TOTALLY different. Yikes! I think I like it, but in our world, everything is changing and tipsy and hind-side-to, so needing some stability (not to be confused with room at the inn).
The ReShrublicans are running amok. Now there’s something reliably unchangeable.
Okay. Time to read the comments. Nice looking site, folks.
And the same applies to those cellphones which so many people are in love with. Your every movement can be tracked as long as the thing is turned on. And many people have been tracked… and where might they have been?
In the MA area, I’ll use a supermarket card for discounts, but I also notice that the coupons they give me at the register tend to match things I buy — products and brands — so I think the coupons I get each time aren’t just random, they fit my profile.
(((((barbara and david)))))
{{{{{{hugs}}}}}} The site just changed yesterday. All of us are having adjustment issues
LOL!!! Actually, 707!!!
I’ve noticed that with Target coupons that come in the mail. Scarily on-target (!) with prior purchases.
Best to Barbara and David. Struggle is all.
Correction on the GPS thingy in your cellphone. It still works when your cellphone is turned off. The only way to disable it, is to take the battery out of the cellphone.
Scarecrow – that is quite true – the coupons that are spit out with your receipt ARE fit to your profile. Try ‘forgetting’ your card and see if or what kind of coupons you get.
Good morning. What happened to Dodd’s hold? Was it totally disregarded?
And every time you get foreign currency at the bank now, you have to do it in such a way that it is tracked via your account.
LHP unless there is a power supplied to the phone’s GPS broadcasting a position I don’t think it would would send a position if it is turned off. I think we need to check this out.
Even phones without GPS can be located by triangulation from 3 receiving towers.
Anyway. I keep my cell off except to make a call… and even that in rare moments.
I would REALLY like everyone to say loud and clear when they talk to their representatives;
”I want to make sure these companies have not STOLEN from ME and if they did I WANT MY PROPERTY BACK and I want to be COMPENSATED if it’s intellectual property that can never be protected again”
they have been STEALING, they are stealing our intellectual property, they are stealing our private information, they are stealing our secrets
there is NO other reason for them to even CARE if their behavior is examined, there is no reason what so ever
they have been asked to steal by the administration, they allowed it because they were promised the spoils of that thievery
it is really important to make the issue more then the abstract ”my rights have been violated”. it is VERY important to make it MORE then ”they broke the law” or ”they violated the constitution”
we MUST say WHY they cannot be allowed to break our law, the principles are fine in a land called Nirvana but this is NOT Nirvana, this is the land of the greedy, the land of me
we must show them that even in the land of ”me” we CANNOT allow government nor business to steal our information
I would also like to ask my representatives if the administration is blackmailing them into agreeing to allow the criminals to get away with their criminality
and I will ask
”why else would you allow law breaking UNLESS they are blackmailing you”
man I could go on but it is really important to put a practical face on the reasons these crimes CANNOT get immunity
LHP – and that is key to the surveillance. Once they know the members of a particular “tree huggers” group of Friends Peace group, they just need to track movement to know if they are going to any place in common (as in a meeting or demonstration). Probably they track Face Book too, as in those who belong to anti-war or other groups can be tracked similarly.
Perris they have the goods on all the congress critters and so they are going to get their votes. Why do you think there is so much caving to the thugs on national security matters, telcoms and so forth. Nothing short of mafia blackmail. If you don’t play you… retire to spend time with your family… or take a K street job and cash out and shuddup.
So that you can get info to blackmail them when you get into power.
My best recollection is that Qwest refused to play ball with BushCo on this. Anyone see particulars on their refusal? What was the pitch? I’d think they might be more forthcoming than those who caved.
Anybody else get the e-mail from Leahy this week, the one titled “One Step Closer to Privacy”?
I appreciate that Leahy is trying to do something about identity theft, but damn, that subject line raised my blood pressure. Privacy should be the default for me, not something I have to fight for, and as concerned as I am about identity theft, the illegal actions of my government concern me more. I can take steps to protect myself against identity theft, and there are remedies in place there.
How’m I even gonna know that AT&T has reported to the government that I received a phone call from Dubai? Will the government care that it was my son who is in the Navy, and was on shore leave, and called home for a minute? No, they just got the ticket they needed to monitor me, and everyone else here I talk to. And I can’t even KNOW they are doing it, and nobody is going to review that they have a REASON to do it, and I can’t make them STOP doing it.
And that bullshit about if I’m not doing anything wrong, why should I care, is just that, bullshit. The Fourth Amendment isn’t just a damned suggestion.
This is another fabulous looseheadprop post, digg it pups!
OT, but I think we are all quite fond of Glenn Greenwald.
He needs your vote in this law blog contest to overcome a lead that Insta-(he who I will not name) has racked up.
http://www.abajournal.com/blawgs/blawg100/politics
Note that Jeralyn at Talk Left is also in the running, your call, peeps.
Do we know which bill is coming to the floor, Judiciary or Intelligence?
I don’t like all this tracking either–I shop small Chinese and Italian groceries that don’t have tracking cards (and do have lower prices and better produce–talk about total domination!), and never give my phone or zip when cashiers ask. BTW if we wanted to regain control, we’d lobby the next Congress to reverse course and make all privacy disclosures “opt-in” instead of “opt-out”. Opt out gives them incentive to hide the moment when the choice is made; opt in gives them incentive to make it prominent.
That said, for all their flaws, neither Facebook nor Mastercard can put you in jail. The corporate atmosphere contributes to the political one. But they are separate spheres. And the first course of business should certainly be on the political side.
BTW – Facebook backed down completely (at least this time). Here’s a clip of the email from Move-On:
Dear MoveOn member,
Big news! Last night, Facebook changed their policy and announced that no private purchases made on other websites would be displayed publicly on Facebook “without users proactively consenting.”1
This is a huge victory for online privacy—and shows how regular people can band together to make a difference as the rules of the Internet get written.
Facebook deserves credit for taking a huge step in the right direction. Their decision will hopefully set a precedent for all websites—that the wish lists of corporate advertisers must not be put before the basic rights of Internet users.
When sites like Facebook listen to Internet users and take big steps in the right direction, a little positive feedback goes a long way in encouraging them to keep it up. Can you send an email thanking Facebook today?
Email Facebook here:
privacy@facebook.com
I would advise those of you with large net footprints and expressed progressive political views that your dosier is brimming with data. Facebook, My Space and networking are the spooks wet dream come true.
Yes, they are being blackmailed – or their children are being threatened. Someone there has to stand up and announce this. and we have to announce that we have their back and we will be watching to see if there are repercussions.
Before she left for vaca, Christy expressed considerable concern that Reid was going to ratfuck Dodd on the hold.
Which is why I gave you all thos e links up top. Please spotlight and Digg those and email links to all your Senators (both parties) b/c I truly believe that most of our legislators are getting their info about what’s in this bill from Joe Klein. Sigh!
So, we need to educate both the press and the Senators. And we only have a few days left before the vote.
Jane seems to think that the MSM is paying attetntion to the Digg thingy. If we are going to try to push an article onto the front page of Digg where some MSM copy editor might take notice, use one of the substatnitive ones, not this sing along piece. We want to give them useful date.
The “Joe Klein” link up there takes you to a comilation of all the posts in the Glenn Greenwald schools Joe Klein sequence. The “I’ve advanced a theory” link takes you to my post where I specualte that the telcom immunity might relate to illegal spying on our internet traffic
IIRC, that’s right, and the CEO is being brought up on charges of insider trading. Also, there is a trial going on and a whistleblower from AT&T came to Capitol Hill begging that they not interfere with the trial – to not give immunity and let the trial go forward.
my own personal attempt at privacy:
use cash whenever possible.
shop at Trader Joe’s (no card)
keep the cable tv and the dsl separated
don’t join facebook!
don’t buy stuff from Amazon and minimize online purchases.
That’s not knew, the Foreign Currency Transaction Act has been around 4eva
Thanks for the tip. Went there, did that.
They have silenced Sibel Edmonds.
How can these gag orders intimidate people?
Danial Ellsberg certainly know how to speak up and deal with the consequences.
Let them try to put a hand on Sibel if she speaks.
Speak Sibel! We have your back.
If the telco’s get immunity, wouldn’t they then have no legal reason to refuse a subpoena for all of the records? If they refused, wouldn’t they be subject obstruction or contempt of Congress?
On Blackmailing. I think it is more nefarious than that. MSM has been willing to lie for Bush in the pressing for war in the MidEast etc. My belief is that the real FEAR for politicians is that the MSM press for a swiftboating (with completely false accusations) if they don’t go along with the neo-con agenda on ueber Mid-East war, and spying on citizens is part of this terror agenda to keep everyone very much afraid.
Barbara go click on the link to the At&T case. Marcy’s post explains a lot
I just read through the thread. And yes, this FISA bill is important to protect us from govt intrusion.
But, it is also imperative that we be protected from corporate intrusion as well!
I am concerned for that person (above) who wants their Facebook “f” deleted from their profile. Is Facebook responsible for that too? That once someone links to a site, they are forever linked back to Facebook, at least to their profile there… and who knows what else?
So, I’m just saying… that while we’re on this topic of our Constitutional Right to Privacy – that we consider the myriad ways that corporations have figured out to track our whereabouts and our doings.
This has me steamed!
Thanks, LHP. Lordy, lordy, I’ve missed all y’all. Hope everyone fully appreciates what an incredible community FDL is. I sure do. Back soon as I can make it here.
I sure hope that Bill O’reilly doesn’t get caught up in the great Homeland Security falafel caper.
Do we know which bill is coming to the floor, Judiciary or Intelligence?
I could be wrong (and if so, would appreciate being corrected) – but I believe that the Intelligence bill is up first, with Judiciary’s as a fall-back.
I read a Kagro post the other day, and nobody seems sure whether the Intelligence Committee version has the retro-active immunity in it or not.
IOW – hell, I don’t know.
One could postulate the the Long Island ICE raids, using local law enforcement, were practice for using that info. Entering homes without warrants, using a series of transfer points to make the prisoner’s “disappear”; right out of the NKVD.
I used to work for a company that confirmed the sales of commercial real estate properties. This market research was used by appraisers and real estate brokers in an effort to project the market value of properties that were being marketed or in some other way needed an official evaluation. In order to do the job right, I asked some very specific information, some of which the principals objected to as proprietary information. Unfortunately, some of this “privileged” information was essential to get the right perspective on the sale, and greatly affected the value of the property. In some cases, what has value to one person might not have so much value to anyone else. Yet good and timely market information is essential to the real estate market.
Makes me wonder just how far is too far? We need to ask ourselves what are the consequences of doing without some of this information? And is it worth cutting off private companies from market research.
LHP (on foreign currency): but the way it is done at our bank (Bank of America) seems to be new. You are not allowed to do it unless you withdraw from an account. In short, you can’t just bring in your Euros and exchange them for pounds as you were able to do. It doesn’t really matter to me, but it seems to be part of some larger change. Also, I don’t know if anyone else has come up against this, but it seems as if Bank of America is now paying some of its people based on how much they can turn over accounts & CDs. And we were lied to by the person involved (who had called us at home about the new “offer”) about the changes vis-a-vis accessability of the funds. If I hadn’t been alert we would have gotten screwed. Seems as if the lack of oversight in banking is working well for them, but not for some of the rest of us.
I thik that was Christy’s concern, that Reid was going to do a 3 card monty and put the Intelligence bill out there, perhaps on a day when Dodd can’t get back in time to filibuster. Both bills are still live and that is very nervous making.
We are braced for some horrible procedural fastplay
imo, part of the problem isn’t only the violation of privacy – it’s what is done with the data and who has access to it.
is it used to target advertising? or is it used to deny employment? air travel? to make one the target of investigation based on non-crime related activities (from the books we read to our political view to the type of food we purchase).
so, i might be ok with google paying attention to my web surfing patterns if all it was used for was to target on screen ads (and strong minimization procedures were in place).
but if my web surfing patterns are connected with my health records, with my employment records, with my purchase patterns, with my travel patterns,…. whole ‘nother story.
i do think with reasonable regulation, oversight and transparency we could create a system that worked (that encourages innovation and protects our privacy). but we don’t have a functioning system (in regulation, oversight or transparency) – and that is the foundation we need. and if we can’t get functional and reasonable fisa legislation (that the gov will obey), i have no idea how we are going to get the rest.
LHP – are you going to be the point person on FISA while christy is gone? (i’m hoping *g*)
the president will claim executive priviledge, he has actually had the nerve to do that with abrhamoff
Laugh of the day, parody on Rudy. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/060035.php
OT – watching Huckabee on the stephanupolous show… I’m thinking the big money interests will come after him hard if he gets any traction in the primary.
So you’re assuming that they would prefer to bite the hand that votes for them? ‘Cuz that’s what it comes down to! Except that the voters are not of one voice. Solution: get voters to achieve consensus.
I was looking ahead to 01/20/09 and beyond.
Is it just me being suspicious, or is there an agenda behind the fact that the three righty blogs are listed FIRST, followed by Glenn and Jeralyn?
the president will claim executive priviledge, he has actually had the nerve to do that with abrhamoff
did you have to bring up the Abramoff/State Secrets, or Executive Privilege issue, or whatever particular sophistry they’re claiming?
My blood pressure, ya know.
I agree with Richmond. I think it is fear of swiftboating, also if you get out of line, the party bosses have a word with your donors and suddenly your campaign cash dries up, you suddenly can’t get a favor done, It’s the difference between sitting at the football players/Cheerleaders table in the HS cafeteriea and the sitting at the AV monitors table.
Years ago when Newt Gingrich shut down the federal gov’t Mie Forbs, a then Republican Congressman from LI, actually went to his Congressional office each day to answer his own phones and try to type his own leters (I got one, he types as badly as I do—in fact I stole the “can’t spell, can’t type” line from him)
In response, he got frozen out completely by his own party. Susan Molinari literally told him he couldn’t sit at the GOP NY delegation table in the cafeteria. His donors disappeared. Things got so bad, that the Dems were able to recruit him to switch parties.
I always like Mike. I thought he was decent guy. One of the very few donations I ever made to a GOPer, was to him.
Huckabee is probably the biggest threat for the general election.
It seems that they really don’t have much more time before the next recess to complete this.
Methinks that they are simply going to let it expire and return to the original FISA bill. Then Bush will have to ask them to pass a new law in January…and the advantage is back to Congress. They won’t make another mistake like they did back in August…Bush will also be in a very precarious position, information wise, under the old Bill, which doesn’t have the immunity for government agents that spied domestically. Really all Congress will have to do is deal with the issue of the domestic interchanges that carry foreign-to-foreign communications. That was what the FISA Judge was concerned about.
And it seems to me that new FISA bills could easily be filibustered dead in the amount of time left for this year. That would kill it and the temporary act would expire January 1st.
In addition, Bush says that HIS highest priority is getting a Defense Department “Supplemental for Iraq” passed. Congress is pushing another version of the S-CHIP bill, as well as an Energy Bill. It will be quite difficult to deal with the FISA bill with all of this occurring, especially if people want to attempt some diplomatic stalling manoeuvres.
i’ve read several places that the intelligence bill will be brought up first, and the judiciary bill will/can be offered as a replacement by amendment.
this seems like a process to doom the judiciary bill…. and i don’t know why it should be done that way.
I know I’m out of touch with the mainstream, but how can Huckabee be a problem for whoever the D candidate is? Money problems leap to mind. And he’s a schlub-no Bill Clinton he, despite eery similarities in their resumes.
This is the one I love: Patriotic Car Dealers
Abuse of the Patriot Act?
We are getting complaints from car buyers who have their own car financing from a credit union or an online lender, and the car dealer forces them to sign a credit application anyway, falsely claiming “it’s required by the Patriot Act”.
Looks like wide stance Larry had anm equally wide circle of friends with benefits.
muwahahaha!!!!
YES, make sure there is no telecomm immunity in any legislation.
HOWEVER I want to make sure, as well, that we are not exchanging our Fourth Amendment privileges in exchange for no-telecomm-immunity. So not just “keep immunity out of FISA” but instead “don’t pass FISA at all.” Because even without immunity, FISA is a reprehensible piece of legislation that guts the Fourth Amendment.
Ok the link didn’t show up in my 88 comment.
AmericaBlog has the story.
I currently am only scheduled to do two posts today while Christy is gone. This one and another (non FISA) post immediately after. Of course if things heat up, Jane is known to mix up the schedule to account for breaking news.
That being said, I will try to be on the threads as best I can until the vote. The irony is that the Vote may be on Wed and I am in court that day and can’t be here. Erhhhhggggg
FEEL the waves of frustration emanating from me
I talked to Sen. Bingaman’s man last week about this. He said it is their opinion that the bill is not coming up. Sen. B. opposes immunity for telecoms, I asked him to tell B. to support Dodd’s hold if FISA comes up.
If Congress subpoenaed the telecos for the records the Administration could simply say “these are Classified…and we’ll only show them, in closed session, to the leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee…no notes on them and no subpoenas”.
Re being forced to sign a credit form anyway, we had a car dealer try to insist that State Law mandated that. I reported it to the police! Literally. That they had lied about that.
The police reported that they had suspicious activity at that same dealership related to reported thefts by the dealer, where keys were missing etc.
I say if something like that happens, file a police report. Because it’s akin to “identity theft” kinds of issues.
My feeling about that dealer, given what the police said is that they were involved in “laundering” of car registrations. Wanted that data from customers to use for other illicit activity.
You cannot be too careful these days!
Anyone who uses gmail probably has noticed that the ads beside each email are related to the CONTENT of the email. I use gmail, and I like it, but Google is getting awfully powerful and intrusive.
OK, not that I want to hijack my own thread or anything, But that spoof is hilarious.
And so well done!
LHP at 82 (and others). A key issue we haven’t addressed yet, but which is central to this all is that of the beyond immense shift in lobbiest numbers (and amounts) since say the 1980s. Why? There was a change brought about in who could bring changes into legislation being passed, essentially opening it up to a free for all (pig’s troth) rather than a small group who administered the whole. Bringing about this change (for the worse) was the reason behind the take down of the Dem whose name I forget (Mills?) who was found with his lover?prostitite? in a casino? around that time. (I remember the picture in the paper of him beside a fancy water fountain). Anyway it was the end of his career, and of the status of the committee he controlled. Reinstituting control over who gets to insert things into bills is the only way around this, around the out of control budget in terms of junk, and people in our own party such as Rahm and the DCC.
I am thinking for the future
tom hartman is on fire right now talking about the ”home grown terrorism” bill
this bill is worse then the fisa bill
Yahoo email does something similar. I think they are all trying to profit these days off of our info… again, intruding on our private messages and extracting words, phrases, etc. for their ads.
This burns me!
thanks for the reply. we will do our best to make the calls and faxes to our senators this week (senate contact info for downloading).
i will be extremely pissed if the senate does not wait for the info due from the DNI (by dec 10, iirc) before bringing this to a vote.
looks like i will be extremely pissed.
That would be bad, and I’ll tell you why, old FISA is inadequate for tracking disposable cellphone users. There would be a gap in surveillance and targets could slip “into the wind” as they say.
Just curious…I guess I missed the thread where Christy said she’d be away. Well deserved vacation, IMHO, but when will she return? She picked a good time to get outta Dodge!
Thank you Jane Hartman, I am glad the “primary scare” made you see the “light”. Those little single person committees running around gathering evidence, are a nice touch.
But if it is FEAR of swiftboating, then they should be doing everything to make it QUITE ILLEGAL…both for the Telecos, but also the government employees involved. y offering immunity they will, in fact, bring all sorts of swiftboating down upon their heads.
Here’s an example…let’s say a Congressman, or an aide, passes on some word about a potentially illegal NSA program to the media by phone or internet. The NSA can use it’s authority to domestically spy on an issue that might “assist terrorists” to check the phone and internet records of those in the Intelligence Committees. Then they could divulge who leaked the information to the media that the Senator or his aide was “aiding terrorists”.
That’s my next post up. Right after this one. Stick around
TheraP at 95: My partner’s identity was stolen a couple of weeks ago, seems to have been an inside job at our bank (but took place in another state through their transactions). The bank requested we close and renew all our bank accounts with them,but we refused because what is to prevent the same person from doing it again if s/he/they got the information from our account in the first place. We were contacted by bank security in another state when this happened. We insisted however on going to the local police to report it. PIA to deal with, and to have it internally come through the bank really pisses me off.
I’ve been trying to get front pagers here interested, to no avail. Scares the living daylights out of me. I think the lack of interest relates to the fact that the legislation just sets up commissions, not punishments. My response: can you say witch hunts?
YES! My son was home on leave over the Thanksgiving holiday, and bought a new car, and had that exact thing happen to him. They wanted him to sign a credit app, claiming they HAD to have it for Patriot Act, even though he wasn’t getting financing from the dealer, he had his loan from his military credit union already arranged.
Dad stepped up, said, no, he isn’t signing that. Had to argue with the guy, who kept citing the Patriot Act as the reason it had to be done. Amazingly enough, they managed to sell him the car without having that signature.
Mr. L says that if they claim he has to do it for the Patriot Act, that immediately makes him suspicious.
Two weeks I think. She’s going away for part of the time, and taking a couple extra days off to bake X-mas cookies.
Oh dear, now I have a real dilemma. Go see The Savages at 12:30 & miss your post on a subject I’m very intersted in, or see The Savages at 3:00 & miss Juan Cole.
My son bought a used car a couple of weeks ago. As he was paying cash (certified check), don’t think they collected any credit info on him.
The FISA vote is coming! The FISA vote is coming!
One if by land line, 2 if by cell.
two really good posts from kagro x on fisa procedural matters – especially with regards to what we can expect:
What’s the status of telecom amnesty? (Fri Nov 16, 2007)
Do people hate Congress because there are never any clear answers? Well, yes and no. (Mon Nov 26, 2007)
twolf,
707!
you funny, twolf!
Really though folks. You can send emails, spotlights, diggs etc to any of the posts linked above today even though most of the recipients won’t see them until tomorrow morning.
OTOH, your message could be the first item in somebody’s in box tomorrow
OT but an interesting piece on how the Iraqi Government is still in as much disarray, if not more, since the surge began.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..wgF”> Sunni Legislators Walk Out of Parliament
This is in direct response to a major politician and his followers in the Sunni Party being arrested after a number of raids last week. So now the US Military is providing weaponry to Sunni warlords and their militias who are not represented in the government…while at the same time attack Sunnis who are affiliated with groups in the government and essential for reconciliation. Simply nutso.
I did! And like she says, not the subject line, the CONTENT of the email.
I know it’s done by a machine, but machines have very long memories.
Richmond,
BofA has to make up for their losses in the Great shit-pile somehow…
eCAHN, that’s my point. He was buying, using a certified check from his credit union, there was no financing from the dealer’s point of view, but the dealer was insisting that he had to sign a credit app, authorizing the dealer to run credit checks on him, because “The Patriot Act requires it.”
Then they had to argue about how it wasn’t necessary. Did my son sign a credit app and have checks run on him by the credit union? Sure. It would be expected – they are loaning him the money. Why would the dealer, who wasn’t loaning him jack, need that? Because the Patriot Act said so – or so they claimed. And with that credit app, they get the keys to looking at all kinds of his information that should be private – but national security says they need this? A car dealership?
It’s bogus. I don’t know what their motive was, but something there that is just not right.
There is a really irritating pop-up on this site that says “You Are the 999,999th visitor. Congratulations, You’ve won!” It jiggles around and the “click-off button simply takes me to the ad.
How do I get this permanently gone!
ot – via laura rozen at war and piece:
LHP, never dug anything before – but it looks like I have to register to do that? Is that right?
Since we’re talking about Facebook and other abusing registrations….
I think that’s that “packet sniffing software” that was the essence of the FBI’s Echelon and Carnivore programs. Remember when Echelon was abandoned it was because the FBI could get the same utility with commercially available software.
Presumably software like the kind Gmail uses
Oh, I guess the IRS prolly has been using this shopping tracking for their audits. I’m sure every agency is using it every possible way.
Seems par for the course. Probably Wolfie isn’t getting high enough fees for his speaking engagements & needs something to repair his resume.
LHP
What time will your next post be? Must make decision in next 10 minutes!
On FDL? I’m not getting it. Sometime when I go to another site, a pop up follows me back. try logging out of FDL, closing and reopening your browser and then logging back in
These bills come with summaries for those who dopn’t wanna read them. There’s no excuse for not at least reading that if you’re a rep or in the media.
Yep, and Condi is also getting something from him. Tit/tat.
I’m the wrong one to ask, I can’t get Digg to work for me and I did register
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has offered Wolfowitz, a prime architect of the Iraq War, a position as chairman of the International Security Advisory Board, a prestigious State Department panel
Ahem. Didn’t I just mention my blood pressure? I’m liable to pop like a cheap balloon if
y’allthey keep this crap up.I wonder if the apartment-management company would mind if I hung a heavy bag in the living room?
9 AM FDL time which I THINK is noon EST– I have a hard time with the time difference thingy
My mon taught me therte’s no such thing as a stupid question except the one you don’t ask. So here goes. I just don’t get this. say you have an American comminicating with an Al Queda person overseas. Can’t that communication be intercepted overseas?
And what also pisses me off is that the have CNN news (meaning missing Aruba girls) blaring in a bank of TVs as we bank, the whole wrapped up in pulsing red-white-blue faux-patriotism colors.
It’s actually done by software, and who’s to say that software isn’t storing the content somewhere, or at least scanning the content for “suspicious” words or phrases or names? I had heard or read once that it’s done by pattern recognition, not really by content, but I don’t believe it for a nanosecond.
This new site is REALLY irritating. The linky’s don’t allow titles anymore and one can’t quote and then find a link without losing either your quote or any text you wrote when you return to the site.
This is really making providing sources an impossible battle. Someone needs to fix this.
Here is the broken link to the Sunnis walking out of the Iraqi Parliament.
I can’t title it like I used to be able to.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..9jmVcLewgF
Depends on how good the summary is. Staff work (Except for my beloved Cong Research Service) can be pretty hit or miss these days. I think there are Regent U grads in places other than DOJ
Made my decision. Off to see The Savages. I’ll read your post later & am sorry I won’t be around for the discussion.
Hey looseheadprop — unlike the government, you can control what Facebook will publish.
Sshhhh…I have two profiles there. One is my “out” profile, the other is my pseudonym. The “out” profile I don’t use for shopping for anything. The pseudonym I use for everything I wouldn’t say/do “out”.
And I use another identity altogether for shopping and any other transactions, one not tied in any way shape or form to Facebook.
;-)
Or maybe, since from the comments here it seems to be widespread and not an isolated incident, our gummint has put out some sort of notification that this is required of car dealers (a sub rosa way to extend the long arms of the Patriot act, perhaps).
Or do I need to dust off the tinfoil hat?
I’m vote number 911…
No Sunday Funnies on George Stephy. Is he honoring the strike, or (since he didn’t actually mention it) just being pragmatic. i.e. there isn’t anything new and funny out there?
I’m in the Phoenix commercial area, and your comment is listed at 8:53 AM on my screen when my clock reads 9:53 at the time your comment went up. Does that help?
cinnamonape — they still work. You may need to become more adept at HTML, rather like Haloscan of old.
Your link, titled, for example:
Sunnis walking out of Iraqi Parliament
are you sure they are keeping track of you only by facebook name and not by ip address?
rayne, I have almost completely given up shopping on the internet. Once in a blue moon, I’ll order books off Amazon b/c they come fast than having them orderd through the bricks and mortar version of B%N or Borders.
I’m just PO’d at facebook for daring to try to pull a stunt like that
On Rice and Wolfie- as if they haven’t screwed up the State dept enough! And, clearly either Wolfie can’t make it on his own in the private sphere (i.e. no one wants him because his reputation proceeds him) or they are pressing for more corruption.
On this very topic see the brilliant front page NYT piece on Malawi going from starvation to profit in their agriculture by NOT doing what USAID and World Bank wanted (”free” enterprise). Instead the gov. helped pay for fertilizers and seeds (just as the US does to farmers here). Alas USAID can no longer send/sell them US Corn (privateers as diplomats) as foreign aid; instead Malawi is selling its surplus corn to Zimbabwe and elsewhere. This is one of the most heart warming articles I have read in years!
CBS News Reports that:
Mike Huckabee has Chuck Norris in his corner. Melissa Gilbert is backing Rudy Giuliani. And the Osmonds are swooning for Mitt Romney.
CBS News adds: “not surprisingly, most of Hollywood’s celebrities are backing Democrats”.
Can you hear the dog-whistle? I can.
You’re right. I’m just saying people should at least read something. this bill is complicated so the summary won’t be that much help. But it’s something.
i’m hoping there will be a tech/tools thread in a day or two so we can all compare notes and help each other figure things out. also if there are genuine bugs, it would (i’d think) be useful for the tech folks to have a place to go to find out what problems we are having.
just a suggestion to lhp and the powers that be….
Am I going nuts or are some of the posts being doubled for me (or is this only for me and the other Ziggarats)
new thread
They would have a serious problem with IP addresses, selise. There are lot of people who have multiple users on PC’s at home, let alone work environments. It’s got to be related to log in at facebook and/or email address, or there would be holy hell to pay. And I’ll bet that Facebook is still going to have to ratchet back on the Beacon…
Imagine a guy buying something for his mistress via computer, unaware that his wife was still logged into her Facebook account.
Hence my lack of worry; the government is a far bigger concern because they don’t give a shit right now under this administration, no punitive action will be taken that will stop them if they have anything to say about it.
p.s. we could even write up a FAQ based on what suggestions/questions came out of the thread (i’d volunteer if no one else is interested).
Times
The Surge is Working! The Surge IS Working! The Surge IS Working! Damnit!!!!
Rrrr-ruff, ruff.
Doesn’t matter to me, dogwhistle or not.
It can even be captured here in the US. Quite simply both ends of a communication with a known terrorist can be intercepted. That would presumably be a person who has been targetted by a FISA approved warrant…or fall into the category of an “emergency 3-day” waiver. It doesn’t matter if one of the individuals is an American.
Foreign-to-foreign communications are exempted. Now some have suggested that the NSA or CIA could obtain US communications without a warrant from a foreign intelligence source (MI5). But I think that this would have serious legal problems as judicial evidence…and if these were a regular matter of exchange would likely be termed an illegal acivity. Any sharing of information to that foreign agency ( a “quid pro quo”) might be suspended by the court, as well as there being a cease and desist order.
It would be akin to the USG asking for the telecos for written transcripts of phone conversations. The telecos may not be providing the access to the phone calls directly, but they are acting at the behest or as agents of the USG in violating the 4th Amendment.
What cannot be done is to capture domestic-to-domestic conversations without a warrant already having been issued. That doesn’t allow the 3-day waiver, post hoc issuing of warrants.
I don’t think this is remotely government-oriented. For what it’s worth, I paid cash for a new car in August and nobody asked me for any credit check. I would have walked if they had tried. This sort of thing has been going on for years–dealers WANT to check your credit, and sleazy ones will even try to get enough info to run a credit check, then do it without asking. (NEVER fill in the “SSN” on their innocuous-looking customer information forms.) It’s part of how they decide to negotiate with you. If you’ve a low score, beware the Four-Square!
See, frankly, I’ve never understood this “terrorists will have more rights than Americans” thing. Where does that even come from. It seems like bullshit just on its face, but how can anybody even say it?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thebl…..ar_me.html
I checked and as of a few minutes ago, PaulRevere.com is still available. Paul Revere.org belongs to some policeman in Iowa who doesn’t want our guns taken away. (PS I don’t either, any more.)
My son says the best grafitti he ever saw read: “If voting changed things it would be illegal.”
We should pay attention to affinity cards. They not only track your purchases, but your physical location every time you shop. Great stuff for serious profiling. At the same time they were introduced, all of the grocers stopped doing sale deals to anyone but affinity card holders, so the net gain to shoppers appears to be zip (except check cashing convenience maybe). The only thing they seem not to track are beer and cig sales – perhaps afraid someone would try to subpoena the data for a divorce trial and gum up the works.
When they were first introduced, I watched a groc store manager use a chain drug store affinity card in lieu of theirs for someone who had forgotten her card, saying I could lose my job for showing you this. I assume retailers are being compensated (directly or indirectly)by data aggregators for the data.
Of course, they are convenient for cashing checks, etc. but the amount of info being served up is major and not random. At the beginning there were groups of folks who swapped around cards periodically, but then the merchants started mailing bonus coupons, etc. Possibly in part to discourage this behavior. I don’t think people in this country care about privacy… Perhaps another thing that comes under the heading of if you’re not doing anything wrong, why should you care.
Anyone know who the aggregator is… Choice Point? It would be interesting to know exactly how this works. Do the grocers get compensated or get computer systems and valuable inventory, sales-profile and check credit data? Does the aggregator handle the bad checks? What does the aggrogator do with the data?
LHP: You need to read REAL American Hx. Revere was “created” many years after the American Revolution by famed American poet, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, in “Paul Revere’s Ride”. What really happened was much different and is accurately portrayed by Ray Raphael in “Founding Myths”.
calvin highly recommends that book and Howard Zinn’s, “A People’s History of the United States.” We need to know our history. There was a revolution, a real one, not the one in our nation’s history books.
What is in our history books is what our conservative “keepers” want us to know. However, we did have a real people’s revolution. It’s well-worth the time to delve into our “real” history. It’s worth to find out how we’ve been bamboozled all these years.
Yeah, they won’t like the tax tax tax man.
Still, that might not stop the fundies in some midwest states from picking him.
P.S. I don’t see Preview working here.
That would be hilarious if it weren’t such a sad situation.
Excuse me, weren’t Norris Gilbert AND the Osmonds all actors and on Hollywood t.v. shows?
Seems you can’t expect someone to tell the truth if he’s paid not to. Or, maybe they just don’t have script writers doing the work for media ‘journalists’.
Let me assure you that the vote is coming before Santa, and it’s going to result, as I’ve said many times, in a bill no one here will like at all.
Want to know one reason why? Go out in the street tomorrow and try asking anyone you see (get over the momentary embarassement) if they know the FISA vote is coming soon. They simply won’t have a clue what you’re talking about. It’s not even a blip on their radar. And if and when you context it a bit, they will still look at you with a querulous expression.
There is colossal indifference to the a different type of “takings clause”–that’d be the taking of the Constitution from you.
Has the mainstream media been covering it? Hell no. Daily Britney, O.J., “cop murders wife” maybe with his own on the fly reality show–Hell yeah. That’s your America.
And that’s why when it matters no one’s going to step up to the plate, chiefly your “Democrats.
Again “Children who became adult bodies who are perpetual adolescents or tweens nearly 200 million to people who aware 1″ is the ratio.
This tragedy about to happen has not been a blip on the media radar in the medium that most of America still watches to get their “news” –the T.V.
Tweety and MSN “OJ/Britney” BC and Floyd Abramns’ little boy getting a new liberal wind in his sales barely scratches the surface with this. How long before they start an O.J./Britney Tuesday?
The perpetual adolescents who are your country simply don’t know and don’t care and they are far more concerned about reruns and wonder why they’re happening, and “Gossip Girl” has ratings that outnumber the jokes that are titled Presidential “debates” (with “Lightening Rounds and insipidly stupid questions from people like Blitzer) eight or nine to one.
Pssst. Preview isn’t a preview.
And I like the way sales was spelled. It’s more accurate.