zed

The party of hate & racism. That’s the GOP.

David!

read – no zed

SteveAudio @ 2

The party of hate & racism. That’s the GOP.

Their talent is their ability to make racists feel like their hate is something honorable and patriotic, rather than something to be ashamed of and keep hidden.

I watched that Republican thing last night. And the GOP was playing the race card in terms of the immigration issue. That much was clear. And those views will filter down into the populace. When you don’t have solutions, (the Republicans have learned their lessons well), resort to racism. This sort of nastiness still works.

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

Hi, Dave!
Nice to see you here.

Alvord, if you’re still here, I wrote you an apology near the end of the last thread.

FunnyDiva

(As opposed to those stupid scoldy no-fun liberals, who are all the time making a fuss every time the white man tries to stick up for himself and his country…)

Terrific post. I feel so strongly about this issue and am always glad when someone shines a light on it. Thanks.

eCAHNomics @ 7

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

The other theme in last night’s ridiculously fake debate was the Bible. And if you can frame it right, the Bible can be twisted into supporting racism.

David! Long time no see. I appreciate the real version of the Ramos-Campean story. We lost Air America in San Diego, so I’m listening to the only station I get. KFI, Los Angeles. It’s been so obvious that they haven’t told the whole story…

Eli @ 11

eCAHNomics @ 7

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

Not if Rahm can help it.

Eli @ 11

eCAHNomics @ 7

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

Yeah, there’s the Rahm problem. But even if that were to go away, what would happen in Congress if legislation were brought up. The remaining Rs, who will be much more to the right than the current crew, will raise holy hell. Ugly ugly ugly.

Eli @ 11

eCAHNomics @ 7

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

The other thing is we need to elect someone who can inspire Americans to thinking about a better “way” and smarter future (a la JFK). Read: Not Hillary.

Oh poop on the Republicans!

What pisses me off about this is that Rahmbo is telling the dem candidates to follow suit and veer right on immigration. We know that racism is very much at the root of the repig “revolution” but the dems aren’t supposed to play along with it. We need to hold our people’s feet to the fire to do the right thing.

After all, we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree—all except those who were natively born here, whose ancestors didn’t come over the sea via a boat.

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

eCAHNomics @ 15

Eli @ 11

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

Yeah, there’s the Rahm problem. But even if that were to go away, what would happen in Congress if legislation were brought up. The remaining Rs, who will be much more to the right than the current crew, will raise holy hell. Ugly ugly ugly.

Let. Them.

The madder they get, the more the mask slips. Good for Democratic brand, terrible for Republican brand. Plus it would be nice to see the Democrats start saying, “We have the votes, so fuck you.”

Loo Hoo. @ 13

David! Long time no see. I appreciate the real version of the Ramos-Campean story. We lost Air America in San Diego, so I’m listening to the only station I get. KFI, Los Angeles. It’s been so obvious that they haven’t told the whole story…

Stream it over the toobs via iTunes. That’s how I listen.

iirc, before this issue really took this ugly hold, the majority of americans favored some way to legalize the status of those here illegally — payment of fines, highers fees, etc. it’s been remarkable to see how easily manipulated people are and how thoroughly corrupted the media is.

Richmond @ 16

Eli @ 11

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

The other thing is we need to elect someone who can inspire Americans to thinking about a better “way” and smarter future (a la JFK). Read: Not Hillary.

Or even a smarter way and a better future. *g* Still not Hillary.

FunnyD

Richmond @ 16

Eli @ 11

Well, unless the Democrats figure out that Hispanics are a growing constituency, and that they should be trying to appeal to them rather than jumping on the anti-immigrant hatewagon.

Or that, y’know, it’s the decent and moral thing to do. But doing the right thing out of self-interest is probably a better bet (it’s bound to happen eventually, right?).

The other thing is we need to elect someone who can inspire Americans to thinking about a better “way” and smarter future (a la JFK). Read: Not Hillary.

Do we need to even mention Rabbit Rahm’s crap lately?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

Except for the fact they seem to own both parties and the MSM.

eCAHNomics @ 7

I fear the way this is heading, in the sense of reversability. Once these hates are fanned, it’s very difficult to damp them down. Therefore, even if there’s a D tsunami in 08, and even if there aren’t too many Blue Dogs, it seems unlikely the mood of the country will allow for reasonable immigration legislation.

I think if the democratic presidential candidate speaks to this Christian Nation about what the right thing to do is, there is hope. Nobody really hates the Mexicans. They are angry that the firms that used to hire Americans are now hiring undocumented folks, but they do not hate the people. This whole conversation needs to be redirected. I know it won’t be easy, it’s so easy for Americans to have a scapegoat-particularly if the economy continues to go in the tank. But the right person needs to frame this in the right way.

Even my diehard republican neighbors like Mexicans!

RevDeb @ 18

What pisses me off about this is that Rahmbo is telling the dem candidates to follow suit and veer right on immigration. We know that racism is very much at the root of the repig “revolution” but the dems aren’t supposed to play along with it. We need to hold our people’s feet to the fire to do the right thing.

After all, we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree—all except those who were natively born here, whose ancestors didn’t come over the sea via a boat.

If the Republicans want to throw away the Hispanic vote for, well, forever, and make the whole country more like California, why on earth would you want any part of that?

“Look, Hispanic people! We hate you just as much as the Republicans do! Isn’t that great?”

The best case is if it turns out Rahm is seriously out on a limb here and marginalizes himself within the Democratic party, but I’d prefer for that to happen *before* he sabotages a national election.

Oh come on guys. I mean, really, what are your priorities?

What’s more of a threat to this country- a little economic meltdown,
or hoards of brown people who are never going to
contribute to the RNC?

The madder they get, the more the mask slips.

You’re forgetting human nature. The more racism becomes public, the more it spreads, like a virus. This is not a positive development for Ds. It makes progressives’ policies more difficult.

So….I wonder how many of the victims of 9/11 were people of color???? Do these flagwavin’ 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, Homelandian racists only care about the victims that were white and Christian – does that translate for them into only, say, for example, 400 white Christian people that they care about who perished??? Did the rest of the victims have no right to be here in Homelandia because they didn’t look like them, and were probably illegal aliens from Mars?? Really, they are that empty headed.

What a bunch of ignorant boneheads.

Funnydiva2002 @ 8

Hi, Dave!
Nice to see you here.

Alvord, if you’re still here, I wrote you an apology near the end of the last thread.

FunnyDiva

i thought your apology was a class act. wish joe klein would take note.

That thing which works everywhere else does not work in New Mexico. Lew Wallace, first colonial governor said that (more or less) before or after penning Ben Hur.

We are not first of best in much, but we do better than most at diversity.

They should listen to Richardson on the issue.

OT (Very). I don’t know if it was mentioned earlier, but Eric Schlosser has a killer op ed in the NYT today about tomato harvesters getting screwed by Burger King (see also http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../132624/89).

What to me is most disgusting in this sorry mess is the role of both Goldman-Sachs and Mitt Romney (Bain Investment) in depriving the harvesters of their rightful earnings. In addition to boycotting Burger King, their out to be sign holders (picketers) outside G-S and Bain head quarters. Also, Romney needs to be asked about this by MSM.

eCAHNomics @ 29

The madder they get, the more the mask slips.

You’re forgetting human nature. The more racism becomes public, the more it spreads, like a virus. This is not a positive development for Ds. It makes progressives’ policies more difficult.

It didn’t work out so well for Senator Allen. Excuse me, Ex-Senator Allen.

allan_in_upstate @ 28

Oh come on guys. I mean, really, what are your priorities?

What’s more of a threat to this country- a little economic meltdown,
or hoards of brown people who are never going to
contribute to the RNC?

the brown islamofascist horde that’s gonna come halfway around the world and fight us here.

FunnyDiva
“hey, shrink! You can get anything you want at Alice’s Restaurant!”

So, what would the Republican equivalent of Krystalnacht look like?

And when the bottom drops out of the mortgage market and economic chaos ensues, will they find some reason to blame it all on “illegal aliens”?

And will President Bush find a reason in all of this to call for more tax cuts?

Warning: contents of this message may contain snark.

Bob in HI

Eureka Springs @ 25

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

Except for the fact they seem to own both parties and the MSM.

I wasn’t going to put it that way. But the thought has crossed my mind though. ;0)

eCAHNomics @ 29

The madder they get, the more the mask slips.

You’re forgetting human nature. The more racism becomes public, the more it spreads, like a virus. This is not a positive development for Ds. It makes progressives’ policies more difficult.

yep. Those of us who care about the common good as much if not more than in our own self-interest are definitely in the minority. It will take a lot of time and work to undo the “greed is good” mentality that the repigs have infected the country with.

RevDeb @ 18

What pisses me off about this is that Rahmbo is telling the dem candidates to follow suit and veer right on immigration. We know that racism is very much at the root of the repig “revolution” but the dems aren’t supposed to play along with it. We need to hold our people’s feet to the fire to do the right thing.

After all, we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree—all except those who were natively born here, whose ancestors didn’t come over the sea via a boat.

You beat me to it. Rahm has got to go.

Thanks for this, David.

The Republicans can’t talk about the economy because they’re still talking up the “Bush Boom” — or were up until a couple of weeks ago. But they can scare the crap out of people.

It didn’t work out so well for Senator Allen. Excuse me, Ex-Senator Allen.

That racism stopped one candidate does not deny my point. Fearmongering can turn people on the margin against immigrants. You remember war fearmongering & how it turned the country into rabid revengers.

Phoenix Woman @ 40

Thanks for this, David.

The Republicans can’t talk about the economy because they’re still talking up the “Bush Boom” — or were up until a couple of weeks ago. But they can scare the crap out of people.

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

Rahm, the DLC, Harold Ford Jr., James Carville, among others, are insidious.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

That is the paradox, probably less than 5% are rich. There are a lot of middle, lower middle and poor whites voting against their self interest.

Let’s be careful here.

CNN chose which questions would be asked. During the Democratic debate, CNN forced a young woman to ask “diamonds or pearls?” of Hillary when she really wanted to ask about Yucca Mountain.

Yes, there was a ton of wingnut crap to choose from, so a fair choice of questions would have included a lot of it. But people did ask serious questions; CNN chose not to use those questions.

What we need is to take the professionals out of the picture altogether: the public can submit the questions, and then vote up the questions that they most want to see asked.

RevDeb @ 18

What pisses me off about this is that Rahmbo is telling the dem candidates to follow suit and veer right on immigration. We know that racism is very much at the root of the repig “revolution” but the dems aren’t supposed to play along with it. We need to hold our people’s feet to the fire to do the right thing.

After all, we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree—all except those who were natively born here, whose ancestors didn’t come over the sea via a boat.

one thing (among many) that really bothers me about this, is how the economic policies of the dems during clinton’s presidency has contributed to the problem – from fucked up trade policies that increase immigration pressure to off shoring jobs that create economic insecurity here. if the dems would be the party of the working class instead of just throwing the occassional bone – the economic pressures that make us ripe for scapegoating (of immigrants or whoever) could be defused.

lecturing people about their racism, i fear, will just add to the resentment.

Joe Buck @ 45

Let’s be careful here.

CNN chose which questions would be asked. During the Democratic debate, CNN forced a young woman to ask “diamonds or pearls?” of Hillary when she really wanted to ask about Yucca Mountain.

Yes, there was a ton of wingnut crap to choose from, so a fair choice of questions would have included a lot of it. But people did ask serious questions; CNN chose not to use those questions.

What we need is to take the professionals out of the picture altogether: the public can submit the questions, and then vote up the questions that they most want to see asked.

I think we should ask the League of Women Voters to consider putting on a presidential debate.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the next 11 months ramping up a carefully choreographed series of supposed “illegal alien” terror-type incidents…KKKarl has been counting on immigration being “the issue” for 2008, and it has been carefully cultivated over the past few years, it is the only issue that can compete with Iraq other than an Iran attack, but they’ll rationalize that too….they will ramp it up…just watch.

AP – Thousands of Iraqis whose support for the U.S. war effort in Iraq has put them and their families in grave danger at home are being excluded from a new fast-track system aimed at speeding up refugee resettlement in the United States for American allies, officials said Thursday.

selise @ 31

Funnydiva2002 @ 8

Hi, Dave!
Nice to see you here.

Alvord, if you’re still here, I wrote you an apology near the end of the last thread.

FunnyDiva

i thought your apology was a class act. wish joe klein would take note.

Thank you, Selise.
Temper gets the best of me sometimes, but I’m learning and trying to mitigate the damage when I can. Because I owe that to FDL at the very least. And to myself. And because the personal cost of an apology is so much smaller than the value of keeping this community in the ‘class act’ category.

FunnyD

It’s all in the framing…

“Do you believe the Justice Department should be giving immunity to illegal alien drug smugglers in order to prosecute U.S. Border Patrol agents for breaking administrative regulations? … Yes or no.”

eCAHNomics @ 41

It didn’t work out so well for Senator Allen. Excuse me, Ex-Senator Allen.

That racism stopped one candidate does not deny my point. Fearmongering can turn people on the margin against immigrants. You remember war fearmongering & how it turned the country into rabid revengers.

I think it could be turned against them with strong pushback that points out just what it is they’re saying. Unfortunately, the Dems aren’t so hot at strong pushback, and the media isn’t real keen on reporting it when they are.

I still believe we would reap quite a lot of “Oh my God, I can’t believe he actually said that” moments, and the Republicans would go from 40% of the Hispanic vote (2004, IIRC), to 20% (2006), to something like 5%. As the Hispanic population grows.

SteveAudio @ 2

The party of hate & racism. That’s the GOP.

Well, they covered those two topics big time last night at the debate.

Eli @ 42

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

Not at all – George Soros put them up to it.
After consulting with Kos, of course.

Steve-AR @ 44

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

That is the paradox, probably less than 5% are rich. There are a lot of middle, lower middle and poor whites voting against their self interest.

we haven’t been giving them enough of a choice lately.

if someone lost their good paying job due to nafta (or even thinks they did)… they may not blame the Rs for that.

On Rahm, he would be (in essence) insignificant if he didn’t have his leadership position. Who would we have to convince on that one, and who would we replace him with? Other than that, we would need to convince someone (a minority person?) to run against him.

Richmond @ 47

I think we should ask the League of Women Voters to consider putting on a presidential debate.

i agree. but both parties rejected them in the ’90s (iirc because they would not exclude ross perot from the general election debates)

Steve-AR @ 44

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

That is the paradox, probably less than 5% are rich. There are a lot of middle, lower middle and poor whites voting against their self interest.

We do that here in Oklahoma a lot. We are considered a ‘poor state’. Just behind Mississippi, another red state. Go figure.

Oklahoma was not always thus. And we do seem to be getting a tiny bit bluer.

Richmond @ 47

Joe Buck @ 45

Let’s be careful here.

CNN chose which questions would be asked. During the Democratic debate, CNN forced a young woman to ask “diamonds or pearls?” of Hillary when she really wanted to ask about Yucca Mountain.

Yes, there was a ton of wingnut crap to choose from, so a fair choice of questions would have included a lot of it. But people did ask serious questions; CNN chose not to use those questions.

What we need is to take the professionals out of the picture altogether: the public can submit the questions, and then vote up the questions that they most want to see asked.

I think we should ask the League of Women Voters to consider putting on a presidential debate.

Amen!

Bob in HI

Eli @ 42

Phoenix Woman @ 40

Thanks for this, David.

The Republicans can’t talk about the economy because they’re still talking up the “Bush Boom” — or were up until a couple of weeks ago. But they can scare the crap out of people.

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

You’d almost think they were being set up to be the scapegoats.

LS @ 30

So….I wonder how many of the victims of 9/11 were people of color???? Do these flagwavin’ 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, Homelandian racists only care about the victims that were white and Christian – does that translate for them into only, say, for example, 400 white Christian people that they care about who perished??? Did the rest of the victims have no right to be here in Homelandia because they didn’t look like them, and were probably illegal aliens from Mars?? Really, they are that empty headed.

What a bunch of ignorant boneheads.

Wrong, I think. They care only about the Jews and the Christians.

eCAHNomics @ 29

The madder they get, the more the mask slips.

You’re forgetting human nature. The more racism becomes public, the more it spreads, like a virus. This is not a positive development for Ds. It makes progressives’ policies more difficult.

I’m not sure it doesn’t spread at least as harmfully when it’s underground…also like a virus. But your point is taken: having blatant racism out in public is double-edged. Good thing the reality based community has brains on its side–we’re likeliest to find a way to maximize the benefits and mitigate the pitfalls of having racism show its true, ugly face.

FunnyD

Richmond @ 56

On Rahm, he would be (in essence) insignificant if he didn’t have his leadership position. Who would we have to convince on that one, and who would we replace him with? Other than that, we would need to convince someone (a minority person?) to run against him.

if i understand correctly, leadership positions are affected heavily by fund raising ability. :(

On League of Women Voters and debate: perhaps Moyer could give up one of his PBS shows for an hour debate. The problem with the for-profit Teebee stations is that they all want to showcase their own “news”casters (who of course are biase).

I’m up for another round of YouTube Debates, only this time, the netroots vote on the Ques…! ;-)

Richmond @ 64

On League of Women Voters and debate: perhaps Moyer could give up one of his PBS shows for an hour debate. The problem with the for-profit Teebee stations is that they all want to showcase their own “news”casters (who of course are biase).

i still want amy goodman to moderate

Hiya y’all. Racism is stupid.

selise @ 63

Richmond @ 56

On Rahm, he would be (in essence) insignificant if he didn’t have his leadership position. Who would we have to convince on that one, and who would we replace him with? Other than that, we would need to convince someone (a minority person?) to run against him.

if i understand correctly, leadership positions are affected heavily by fund raising ability. :(

Hmmm. Thinking, thinking, thinking. By the way a terrific piece on ActBlue in the NYT the other day. Clearly we are being taken seriously.

Eli @ 42

Phoenix Woman @ 40

Thanks for this, David.

The Republicans can’t talk about the economy because they’re still talking up the “Bush Boom” — or were up until a couple of weeks ago. But they can scare the crap out of people.

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

And Bill Clinton’s!

Yes, there was a ton of wingnut crap to choose from, so a fair choice of questions would have included a lot of it. But people did ask serious questions; CNN chose not to use those questions.

One of the questioners was on wnyc this morning. He thought the Qs selected were representative of the topics of interest & that they were quite good. The reporter on the segment thought that the debate sounded just like the R town meetings with R prez candidates that she’d attended. If this is accurate, you can conclude that last night’s debate was completely representative & not biased by CNN selection.

Funnydiva2002 @ 69

Eli @ 42

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

And Bill Clinton’s!

And the numbers of hetero-women and gays in the workforce taking away jobs from those truly worthy of them.

Steve-AR @ 44

Oklahoma kiddo @ 19

Who are the “Republican base”? For the most part they are white, male and rich. That leaves out most everyone else.

That is the paradox, probably less than 5% are rich. There are a lot of middle, lower middle and poor whites voting against their self interest.

Economic self interest. Never underestimate the self interest value of self righteousness. The GOP sure as He** doesn’t!

FunnyD

ot – eCAHNomics, i listened to clark today (wnyc podcast) based on your comments. speaking of the mask slipping… the guy is a raving lunatic (where lunatic = warmongering imperialist)

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

Funnydiva2002

I’m not sure it doesn’t spread at least as harmfully when it’s underground

Then you weren’t very alert from 1992-200(approx)4, or whenever it was that W raised the issue. Most of the undocumenteds came in during that period and no one scapegoated them when the econmoy was in trouble after the tech bubble burst or after 9/11. Only when the issue became front & center did racism start to rear its head. And even then, it’s taken quite awhile for it to be provoked. California excepted, when it became an overt issue much earlier.

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

I think he might have gotten a bunch of RNC emails… (per a rumor in a comment yesterday at Thinkprogress via Atrios)…I think he’s got Rove by the cojones on a bunch of stuff….with the news today, I’m even more encouraged…

And, on a good note, I read/heard somewhere that radio shock jock Savage is going down (advertisers have pulled away).

Maybe we can convince non-military companies to pull away from the war-support. There have to be many business people who realize this has been disasterous. Without the pro-war people behind Rahm, he really doesn’t have that much going for him.

SnarKassandra @ 67

Hiya y’all. Racism is stupid.

You got that right!

Bob in HI

Funnydiva2002 @ 69

Eli @ 42

“But if the economy *were* tanking – and we’re not saying that it is – it would *totally* be the Mexicans’ fault.”

And Bill Clinton’s!

this time, i think, there would be some truth to it – see nafta & china trade (*), see banking deregulation, see media consolidation,…

(*) i think trade is great. just not the kind we got with clinton – w/o labor or environmental protections, etc.

LS @ 76

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

I think he might have gotten a bunch of RNC emails… (per a rumor in a comment yesterday at Thinkprogress via Atrios)…I think he’s got Rove by the cojones on a bunch of stuff….with the news today, I’m even more encouraged…

LS- I had to read your comment twice. I thought you meant at first -angry emails from the RNC. But you mean evidence. Terrific.

bobschacht @ 78

SnarKassandra @ 67

Hiya y’all. Racism is stupid.

You got that right!

Bob in HI

and some of us brown americans had family here long before the white people showed up.

selise @ 73

ot – eCAHNomics, i listened to clark today (wnyc podcast) based on your comments. speaking of the mask slipping… the guy is a raving lunatic (where lunatic = warmongering imperialist)

Yessiree. I was amazed. I never heard him slip his mask so completely. But then he’s proud of bombing Kosovo, so I guess we shouldn’t be too surprised. You know, the libertarians have been blaming Clinton for Iraq, on the stream of causality that he thought humanitarian intervention via war was just fine, which set a new meme. I originally dismissed this as just another “Clinton did it too” excuse. But the more I review history, the more truth I see in it. That’s one of the reasons I distrusted Hillary so early.

eCAHNomics @ 70

Yes, there was a ton of wingnut crap to choose from, so a fair choice of questions would have included a lot of it. But people did ask serious questions; CNN chose not to use those questions.

One of the questioners was on wnyc this morning. He thought the Qs selected were representative of the topics of interest & that they were quite good. The reporter on the segment thought that the debate sounded just like the R town meetings with R prez candidates that she’d attended. If this is accurate, you can conclude that last night’s debate was completely representative & not biased by CNN selection.

which gives redstate even less grounds for whinging! (see previous post)

FunnyD

SnarKassandra @ 67

Hiya y’all. Racism is stupid.

Truer words were never spoken, Cassie, but one thing we do really well in this country is stupid.

selise @ 55

Steve-AR @ 44

That is the paradox, probably less than 5% are rich. There are a lot of middle, lower middle and poor whites voting against their self interest.

we haven’t been giving them enough of a choice lately.

if someone lost their good paying job due to nafta (or even thinks they did)… they may not blame the Rs for that.

No they blame “free loading” Blacks, Mexicans, Libruls, etc. Since Goldwater the R’s have developed the ability to “push buttons” in the primitive part of people’s brains, (Fear, hate, fear of the “other”, envy etc.) and have people vote against their own and their families interest. It doesn’t respond to logic.

SnarKassandra @ 81

bobschacht @ 78

You got that right!

Bob in HI

and some of us brown americans had family here long before the white people showed up.

So, you like me and my family need some “perfecting.” (*snark).

Wow, An awesome smackdown of Scottish Haggis’ little pipe dream on FISA…

“Seeking a compromise that would answer both of these concerns, Senator Specter has proposed substituting the government as the defendant in place of the telecom companies in these cases. Senator Specter has the right goals, but substitution won’t accomplish them. Substitution – allowing someone to step into the shoes of a party and inherit that party’s legal position – works well when the substituted party has the same interests as the original party. That’s the case, for instance, when a party dies and his heir is substituted in, or a government official retires and her successor is substituted in. But substitution doesn’t work when the original and substituted parties have conflicting litigation interests and positions. And that’s the case between the telecoms and the Bush Administration.

The major litigation goal of the telecom companies is to avoid costly damages and legal fees; a secondary goal is to uphold their reputations as patriotic and law-abiding corporate citizens. In contrast, the litigation goal of the White House and Justice Department is to avoid the political and legal repercussions of revelations about its surveillance programs. This difference could play out in a couple of ways, were the Government substituted for the telecoms in the lawsuits.”

http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..uting.html

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

It is– if they actually vote contempt on *someone*. *anyone.* But until they do, Rove will just laugh and waive it off. Threats are no good unless you are prepared to carry them out.

Bob in HI

eCAHNomics @ 75

Funnydiva2002

I’m not sure it doesn’t spread at least as harmfully when it’s underground

Then you weren’t very alert from 1992-200(approx)4, or whenever it was that W raised the issue. Most of the undocumenteds came in during that period and no one scapegoated them when the econmoy was in trouble after the tech bubble burst or after 9/11. Only when the issue became front & center did racism start to rear its head. And even then, it’s taken quite awhile for it to be provoked. California excepted, when it became an overt issue much earlier.

Exactly. That is also why Bush took the opposite tack from the rest of the Repubs (i.e., comprehensive immigration, etc.)…so it would not appear to be his position, but it originated with Rove, because he knew all along the Repubs would lap it up like a kitten to milk, and they have, and it’s gonna get worse…Rove knows the base.

Richmond @ 71

Funnydiva2002 @ 69

And Bill Clinton’s!

And the numbers of hetero-women and gays in the workforce taking away jobs from those truly worthy of them.

Well, nobody can accuse this hetero-woman of taking anyone else’s job right now. Who knew there’d be an upside(?) to getting canned?

FunnyD

bobschacht @ 88

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

It is– if they actually vote contempt on *someone*. *anyone.* But until they do, Rove will just laugh and waive it off. Threats are no good unless you are prepared to carry them out.

Bob in HI

alas. sigh…

Steve-AR @ 85

selise @ 55

we haven’t been giving them enough of a choice lately.

if someone lost their good paying job due to nafta (or even thinks they did)… they may not blame the Rs for that.

No they blame “free loading” Blacks, Mexicans, Libruls, etc. Since Goldwater the R’s have developed the ability to “push buttons” in the primitive part of people’s brains, (Fear, hate, fear of the “other”, envy etc.) and have people vote against their own and their families interest. It doesn’t respond to logic.

it does, partially and with time, respond to economic security. less need for scapegoats then.

Richmond @ 86

SnarKassandra @ 81

and some of us brown americans had family here long before the white people showed up.

So, you like me and my family need some “perfecting.” (*snark).

me be super perfect now!

Funnydiva2002 @ 90

Richmond @ 71

And the numbers of hetero-women and gays in the workforce taking away jobs from those truly worthy of them.

Well, nobody can accuse this hetero-woman of taking anyone else’s job right now. Who knew there’d be an upside(?) to getting canned?

FunnyD

Yup. I realize I should have typed *snark* – but you obviously got it!

OT: Writers Strike

I can see why the Studios think they don’t need writers when they have “real life.”
Warren Whitelightning Steals Sausages, Flees in Doughnut Truck.

Richmond @ 80

LS @ 76

I think he might have gotten a bunch of RNC emails… (per a rumor in a comment yesterday at Thinkprogress via Atrios)…I think he’s got Rove by the cojones on a bunch of stuff….with the news today, I’m even more encouraged…

LS- I had to read your comment twice. I thought you meant at first -angry emails from the RNC. But you mean evidence. Terrific.

See comment #12:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/28/250000-2/

SnarKassandra @ 93

Richmond @ 86

So, you like me and my family need some “perfecting.” (*snark).

me be super perfect now!

*g*

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

It is– if they actually vote contempt on *someone*. *anyone.* But until they do, Rove will just laugh and waive it off. Threats are no good unless you are prepared to carry them out.

Bob in HISnarKassandra @ 93

Richmond @ 86

So, you like me and my family need some “perfecting.” (*snark).

me be super perfect now!

Hmm. Might need some work on grammar and syntax, tho’ :-)

Bob in HI

I thought Huckleberry did a great job of taking Romney down last night on the issue of a child of an undocumented immigrant getting an education. The fact that he got such applause was wonderful. And what did Romney do? Wrote something down on his notepad!!

Bob I like to talk like LOLcats.

Richmond @ 91

bobschacht @ 88

It is– if they actually vote contempt on *someone*. *anyone.* But until they do, Rove will just laugh and waive it off. Threats are no good unless you are prepared to carry them out.

Bob in HI

alas. sigh…

It only takes a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

Richmond @ 86

SnarKassandra @ 81

and some of us brown americans had family here long before the white people showed up.

So, you like me and my family need some “perfecting.” (*snark).

Funny, you don’t *look* imperfect.

(Or, alternatively: Some of my best friends are imperfect.)

OT

…so Rudy cooked the books while booking with Toots.

punaise @ 103

OT

…so Rudy cooked the books while booking with Toots.

You betcha.

hi Eli!

eCAHNomics @ 82

selise @ 73

ot – eCAHNomics, i listened to clark today (wnyc podcast) based on your comments. speaking of the mask slipping… the guy is a raving lunatic (where lunatic = warmongering imperialist)

Yessiree. I was amazed. I never heard him slip his mask so completely. But then he’s proud of bombing Kosovo, so I guess we shouldn’t be too surprised. You know, the libertarians have been blaming Clinton for Iraq, on the stream of causality that he thought humanitarian intervention via war was just fine, which set a new meme. I originally dismissed this as just another “Clinton did it too” excuse. But the more I review history, the more truth I see in it. That’s one of the reasons I distrusted Hillary so early.

yes wrt to clinton (both of them).

never heard clark go so far either – but then, i never got the appeal he had to some members of the netroots. he always seemed dangerous to me (probably because of his enthusiasm during the iraq invasion)… but the wnyc podcast – wow.

p.s. i’ve been saying for months now, i would not be surprised to see senator clinton ask clark to be her running mate.

Hi Kassie!

bobschacht @ 88

Richmond @ 74

OT-Any of you get a feeling that Leahy’s new Rove-net strategy is a workable one?

It is– if they actually vote contempt on *someone*. *anyone.* But until they do, Rove will just laugh and waive it off. Threats are no good unless you are prepared to carry them out.

Bob in HI

Talk of contempt by Leahy is a joke..never will be 60 votes..any contempt citations will have to come out of the HR where a simple majority will do. Of course they will have to get it by Nancy, Steny, and Rahm; goo luck with that!

CTuttle @ 101

It only takes a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

It is even simpler for ordinary Americans like me who don’t need a vote to hold this Administration in inherent contempt.

British polling firm, Opinion Research Business, found 1,220,580 violent deaths in Iraq since the U.S. invasion.

Who knew?

CTuttle @ 101

Richmond @ 91

alas. sigh…

It only take a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

But, Dem majorities necessarily need more people than rethug ones because Dems keep running in and out of the room all the time to check on what the the DCC and RNC think of the issue that it is hard to get an accurate count.

eCAHNomics said: “You’re forgetting human nature. The more racism becomes public, the more it spreads, like a virus.”

Our founders wrote a document to address human nature and provided mechanisms for disinfecting and eliminating viruses…….
The virus in this instance, the “neoconfacsist virus” is a variant of the “facsist virus.” It is a cousin of the “absolutist virus,” which has a propensity to attack, religion(s) whereas the “facsist virus” feeds on reason and logic, destroying brain neurons and life. Once it hits critical mass you have genocide and hate crimes predicated on ignorance and brainwashing. Some people think they actually walk on two feet, when they are really still walking on all four!!

punaise @ 103

OT

…so Rudy cooked the books while booking with Toots.

Fasten your seat belts on this one!

is “booking” another word for sex?

selise @ 106

eCAHNomics @ 82

Yessiree. I was amazed. I never heard him slip his mask so completely. But then he’s proud of bombing Kosovo, so I guess we shouldn’t be too surprised. You know, the libertarians have been blaming Clinton for Iraq, on the stream of causality that he thought humanitarian intervention via war was just fine, which set a new meme. I originally dismissed this as just another “Clinton did it too” excuse. But the more I review history, the more truth I see in it. That’s one of the reasons I distrusted Hillary so early.

yes wrt to clinton (both of them).

never heard clark go so far either – but then, i never got the appeal he had to some members of the netroots. he always seemed dangerous to me (probably because of his enthusiasm during the iraq invasion)… but the wnyc podcast – wow.

p.s. i’ve been saying for months now, i would not be surprised to see senator clinton ask clark to be her running mate.

That would be my guess..Clark is strange; very bright, very educated..makes sense 90% of the time and the rest is wacko.

What would really scare the pants off Nancy, Rahm, Steny, Schumer, DiFi and the rest is if we would start petitions in the various states to stop foreign government lobbists from having tax exempt status. That would also pretty much end all the pro-mid-east war hawk funds.

Loo Hoo. @ 112

punaise @ 103

OT

…so Rudy cooked the books while booking with Toots.

Fasten your seat belts on this one!

He’s got all of Dubya’s other character traits, so let’s see if he has his ability to skate away from any scandal. If he can get away from this one, then the Republicans will know he really does have The Right Stuff. So to speak.

selise @ 79

Funnydiva2002 @ 69

And Bill Clinton’s!

this time, i think, there would be some truth to it – see nafta & china trade (*), see banking deregulation, see media consolidation,…

(*) i think trade is great. just not the kind we got with clinton – w/o labor or environmental protections, etc.

Point taken. Truly.

Of course, the GOP at that time was fighting (sincerely, really!) tooth and nail against banking deregulation and media consolidation and for labor and environmental protections. And they rolled back that bad, bad, NAFTA and banking deregulation and media consolidation just as soon as they could. /snark.

And that was just to be snarky, because you did say “some truth” and not “yeah, it WAS all his fault, and the heirs of St Ronnie of the Raygun were completely blameless.”

It’s hard to admit how “not very alert” I truly have been so far and how late I am to this dig-deep, think hard, kick butt and take names progressive shindig that’s been goin’ on.

FunnyDiva

SnarKassandra @ 113

is “booking” another word for sex?

nahh, it’s just that *bonking* didn’t sound right.

booking is old-timer slang for taking off, getting out of here, so it kind of works.

NEGATIVE (or realistic) TORONTONIANS:
thestar.com Poll

Is the latest Mideast peace initiative likely to be successful?

Yes

167 8%

No

1789 91%

Toby Wollin @ 84

SnarKassandra @ 67

Hiya y’all. Racism is stupid.

Truer words were never spoken, Cassie, but one thing we do really well in this country is stupid.

Only _one_ thing that we do well is stupid?*g*

FunnyD

punaise @ 118

SnarKassandra @ 113

is “booking” another word for sex?

nahh, it’s just that *bonking* didn’t sound right.

booking is old-timer slang for taking off, getting out of here, so it kind of works.

OK, thanks. I heard of “booking it” to mean running away.

Funnydiva2002 @ 121

Toby Wollin @ 84

Truer words were never spoken, Cassie, but one thing we do really well in this country is stupid.

Only _one_ thing that we do well is stupid?*g*

FunnyD

Well, everything else that we do well just kind of flows from that…

James Joyce @ 111
Point taken, but I’m hoping I don’t have to be quite so pessimistic. Which is unusual for me.

Richmond @ 115

What would really scare the pants off Nancy, Rahm, Steny, Schumer, DiFi and the rest is if we would start petitions in the various states to stop foreign government lobbists from having tax exempt status. That would also pretty much end all the pro-mid-east war hawk funds.

they have tax exempt status?

SnarKassandra @ 122

punaise @ 118

nahh, it’s just that *bonking* didn’t sound right.

booking is old-timer slang for taking off, getting out of here, so it kind of works.

OK, thanks. I heard of “booking it” to mean running away.

It certainly would give “Book him, Danno!” a whole different kind of dimension…

punaise @ 103

OT

…so Rudy cooked the books while booking with Toots.

it turns out that the books he cooked were cooked on a 1967 Remington electric oven which makes it impossible for the books to have been cooked as claimed on a 1968 model.
why are the liberals trying to frame ‘america’s mayor?’

Rudy hid, saw l’amie.

selise @ 124

Richmond @ 115

What would really scare the pants off Nancy, Rahm, Steny, Schumer, DiFi and the rest is if we would start petitions in the various states to stop foreign government lobbists from having tax exempt status. That would also pretty much end all the pro-mid-east war hawk funds.

they have tax exempt status?

AI*EC does – and Aspen (the roots are turning) Institute.

nobody ever really booked me
the way she booked me
she booked me good

’something’
george harrison

punaise @ 127

Rudy hid, saw l’amie.

i don’t get it.

saw the friend, right?

How excited am I that David Neiwert is going to be posting a regular column on Thursdays at FDL?

Pretty effin’ cool if you ask me.

OT Joe Klein is Shocked to find Rs acting like Rs!
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/11/29/21487/251

hiya Jane!

cool.

Richmond @ 110

CTuttle @ 101

It only take a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

But, Dem majorities necessarily need more people than rethug ones because Dems keep running in and out of the room all the time to check on what the the DCC and RNC think of the issue that it is hard to get an accurate count.

Ha! Good one.

hid the salami

neurophius @ 135

hid the salami

i am still confused

Funnydiva2002 @ 120

Toby Wollin @ 84

Truer words were never spoken, Cassie, but one thing we do really well in this country is stupid.

Only _one_ thing that we do well is stupid?*g*

FunnyD

Nah, FunnyD — we do lots of stupid stuff in this country and we do it all the time. We elect people who despise most of us and use certain hot buttons with certain groups to manipulate them to vote in certain ways. THAT is stupid. And those groups keep pressing that bar, like rats in a psych experiment, every single time they wave those bloody flags. We saw it last night at the debate.
No mention of education or the economy, but wave anything around that appeals to hate or fear and whammo — people start salivating all over the place. I’m amazed they did not have to mop the floors afterwards.
A lot of us have been trained really really well to keep pressing that bar, even when the reward is against our interest or better judgement – the right wing has trained a lot of people very very well.

Cassie, yes l’amie is (woman) friend.

I’m veering into inappropriate territory perhaps. look up “hide the salami” on urbandictionary.com.

SnarKassandra @ 136

neurophius @ 135

hid the salami

i am still confused

Put the hotdog in the bun. Hold the mustard please!

but for good old fashioned xen*phobia there are many ‘hotspots’ around the globe—

Funnydiva2002 @ 117

It’s hard to admit how “not very alert” I truly have been so far and how late I am to this dig-deep, think hard, kick butt and take names progressive shindig that’s been goin’ on.

FunnyDiva

oh me too! i didn’t start paying attention until september 12, 2001.

maybe that’s part of why i’m so very pissed off at bill clinton – there’s that stew of a sense of betrayal combined with being pissed off at myself for not paying attention. i voted for him twice… and come to find out i should not have spent th ’90s trusting him.

i am now determined to hold the dems to the level of scrutiny that i want republicans to hold their politicians.

what should i bring for lunch tomorrow? if i do local bread and texas cucumbers and texas cheese are m&m’s from someplace else OK? or should i make cookies so local they’re across the room from me?

SnarKassandra @ 100

Bob I like to talk like LOLcats.

That’s why your blogging alter-ego is FreckLOLs CATsie, right?

man, I hope punaise gets here soon, he’s sooo much better at this!

FunnyD

Toby Wollin @ 137

Funnydiva2002 @ 120

Only _one_ thing that we do well is stupid?*g*

FunnyD

Nah, FunnyD — we do lots of stupid stuff in this country and we do it all the time. We elect people who despise most of us and use certain hot buttons with certain groups to manipulate them to vote in certain ways. THAT is stupid. And those groups keep pressing that bar, like rats in a psych experiment, every single time they wave those bloody flags. We saw it last night at the debate.
No mention of education or the economy, but wave anything around that appeals to hate or fear and whammo — people start salivating all over the place. I’m amazed they did not have to mop the floors afterwards.
A lot of us have been trained really really well to keep pressing that bar, even when the reward is against our interest or better judgement – the right wing has trained a lot of people very very well.

Read the link in my 132

OK. NO SALAMI for lunch!

SnarKassandra @ 141

what should i bring for lunch tomorrow? if i do local bread and texas cucumbers and texas cheese are m&m’s from someplace else OK? or should i make cookies so local they’re across the room from me?

:-)
‘local’ cookies across the room from me

Funnydiva2002 @ 142

SnarKassandra @ 100

Bob I like to talk like LOLcats.

That’s why your blogging alter-ego is FreckLOLs CATsie, right?

man, I hope punaise gets here soon, he’s sooo much better at this!

FunnyD

Freckles is a stuffed dog that used to sleep in my bed.

Probably already mentioned here, but it’s worth noting that the NSDAP exploited economic disaster by blaming the Other. It worked extremely well for them too.

The GOP is simply taking yet ANOTHER page from the Nazi playbook. You’d think someone in MSM would call them on it, seeing as this borrowing is so blazingly obvious..but, alas, no.

Richmond @ 139

SnarKassandra @ 136

i am still confused

Put the hotdog in the bun. Hold the mustard please!

And maybe you will get some buns to bake in the oven.

eCAHNomics @ 144

Toby Wollin @ 137

Nah, FunnyD — we do lots of stupid stuff in this country and we do it all the time. We elect people who despise most of us and use certain hot buttons with certain groups to manipulate them to vote in certain ways. THAT is stupid. And those groups keep pressing that bar, like rats in a psych experiment, every single time they wave those bloody flags. We saw it last night at the debate.
No mention of education or the economy, but wave anything around that appeals to hate or fear and whammo — people start salivating all over the place. I’m amazed they did not have to mop the floors afterwards.
A lot of us have been trained really really well to keep pressing that bar, even when the reward is against our interest or better judgement – the right wing has trained a lot of people very very well.

Read the link in my 132

Done that. I’m not sure I’m glad, though. All this reminds me of is that last scene in “The Island of Dr. Moreau”(the Bela Legosi version) where the “mob” former animals who have been now turned into semblances of human beings turn on Moreau…”Are we not men…”
Just too creepy for words. The whole thing.

Jane Hamsher @ 131

How excited am I that David Neiwert is going to be posting a regular column on Thursdays at FDL?

Pretty effin’ cool if you ask me.

Um, yeah! Pretty forkin’ cool, even! Good for you, Dave and FDL.

FunnyD

CTuttle @ 101

Richmond @ 91

alas. sigh…

It only takes a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

Could you give me a ref for that? I have been looking and can’t find, simple majority in the Senate to vote out contempt.

punaise @ 138

Cassie, yes l’amie is (woman) friend.

I’m veering into inappropriate territory perhaps. look up “hide the salami” on urbandictionary.com.

Nice cop-out, punaise. Wondered how you were gonna get outta that one.

But, Cassie, I didn’t get it either until someone translated to “hid the salami.”

FunnyD
Still joke impaired!

Jane Hamsher @ 131

How excited am I that David Neiwert is going to be posting a regular column on Thursdays at FDL?

Pretty effin’ cool if you ask me.

Whoa, yea.

Check out this NRSC ad. Fearmongering of the baldest sort, followed by hopefullness, so you’ll consciously forget, but subliminally remeber that they squeezed your guts.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../2152/3385

Funnydiva2002 @ 154

punaise @ 138

Cassie, yes l’amie is (woman) friend.

I’m veering into inappropriate territory perhaps. look up “hide the salami” on urbandictionary.com.

Nice cop-out, punaise. Wondered how you were gonna get outta that one.

But, Cassie, I didn’t get it either until someone translated to “hid the salami.”

FunnyD
Still joke impaired!

See, Cassie – one of the major difference between being a progressive and being a Rethug is that our minds are filthy…but we don’t keep to ourselves. :)

BTW here’s the blurb from a story at the NYT by the ever insightful Michael Gordon:

American military officials said the Iraqi government had yet to develop a plan to absorb an influx of refugees returning to Baghdad and prevent it from setting off a new round of violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin

This is sadly funny on so many levels. Our military accusing someone else of not having plans. Another case of blaming the Iraqis. The myth of progress in Iraq already being hedged. That Iraqis are returning because they are running out of money possibly to homes in areas that have been ethnically cleansed.

eCAHNomics @ 155

Check out this NRSC ad. Fearmongering of the baldest sort, followed by hopefullness, so you’ll consciously forget, but subliminally remeber that they squeezed your guts.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../2152/3385

I watched that, and we need some major de”lie”ification disinfectant about the non-facts in that one!!! It is unbelievable about how they spin and lie…

Hugh @ 158

BTW here’s the blurb from a story at the NYT by the ever insightful Michael Gordon:

American military officials said the Iraqi government had yet to develop a plan to absorb an influx of refugees returning to Baghdad and prevent it from setting off a new round of violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin

This is sadly funny on so many levels. Our military accusing someone else of not having plans. Another case of blaming the Iraqis. The myth of progress in Iraq already being hedged. That Iraqis are returning because they are running out of money possibly to homes in areas that have been ethnically cleansed.

Don’t you think failing to plan is the Bushco plan? (shock doctrine with a touch of genocide)

Hugh @ 157

BTW here’s the blurb from a story at the NYT by the ever insightful Michael Gordon:

American military officials said the Iraqi government had yet to develop a plan to absorb an influx of refugees returning to Baghdad and prevent it from setting off a new round of violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin

This is sadly funny on so many levels. Our military accusing someone else of not having plans. Another case of blaming the Iraqis. The myth of progress in Iraq already being hedged. That Iraqis are returning because they are running out of money possibly to homes in areas that have been ethnically cleansed.

Why in god’s name Michael Gordon is allowed to write anything for the NYT at this point is beyond me. His stuff is pure propaganda.

Cassie, ygm.

selise @ 140

Funnydiva2002 @ 117

It’s hard to admit how “not very alert” I truly have been so far and how late I am to this dig-deep, think hard, kick butt and take names progressive shindig that’s been goin’ on.

FunnyDiva

oh me too! i didn’t start paying attention until september 12, 2001.

maybe that’s part of why i’m so very pissed off at bill clinton – there’s that stew of a sense of betrayal combined with being pissed off at myself for not paying attention. i voted for him twice… and come to find out i should not have spent th ’90s trusting him.

i am now determined to hold the dems to the level of scrutiny that i want republicans to hold their politicians.

Now, that’s a determination worth keeping.

So…I can’t even remember who Bill C beat out for the Dem nomination that first time. Was it close? Did we, the inattentive we, in our ignorance pass over the better candidate for the guy we’d most want to share a beer with?

Because, as with the “a clinton or a republican” sequel, the viable, non-democrat alternative was 4 more years of Bush 41.

And I think I started paying more attention on 9/12/01, but I clearly trusted NPR and the News Hour for far, far too long. And only got to hard-thinking, deep-digging Lefty-Blogistan about the time of the Libby verdict. (rends raiment, tears at hair, dumps ashes on head).

FunnyD

Hugh @ 109

CTuttle @ 101

It only takes a simple majority, in either House, to bring Inherent Contempt charges to bear upon the cabal… ;-)

It is even simpler for ordinary Americans like me who don’t need a vote to hold this Administration in inherent contempt.

This group? They will always be in inherent contempt…

Richmond @ 148

Richmond @ 139

Put the hotdog in the bun. Hold the mustard please!

And maybe you will get some buns to bake in the oven.

Um, Richmond, you’d better hope Aunt Betsy doesn’t catch you skating on that thin ice!
Just sayin’!

FunnyD

Please forgive this TOTALLY Off Topic, but for fans of Kentucky Basketball:
Ralph Beard RIP
Tommy Kron RIP

Dirty Repugs are turning everyone into spys. Next they will be asking children to report discontent of their parents.

>Firefighters asked to report people who express discontent with the government

David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Thursday November 29, 2007

It was revealed last week that firefighters are being trained to not only keep an eye out for illegal materials in the course of their duties, but even to report back any expression of discontent with the government.

A year ago, Homeland Security gave security clearances to nine New York City fire chiefs and began sharing intelligence with them. Even before that, fire department personnel were being taught “to identify material or behavior that may indicate terrorist activities” and were also “told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States.”

Unlike law enforcement officials, firemen can go onto private property without a warrant, not only while fighting fires but also for inspections. “It’s the evolution of the fire service,” said a Phoenix, AZ fire chief of his information-sharing arrangement with law enforcement.

…

Raw Story

selise @ 141

Funnydiva2002 @ 117

It’s hard to admit how “not very alert” I truly have been so far and how late I am to this dig-deep, think hard, kick butt and take names progressive shindig that’s been goin’ on.

FunnyDiva

oh me too! i didn’t start paying attention until september 12, 2001.

maybe that’s part of why i’m so very pissed off at bill clinton – there’s that stew of a sense of betrayal combined with being pissed off at myself for not paying attention. i voted for him twice… and come to find out i should not have spent th ’90s trusting him.

i am now determined to hold the dems to the level of scrutiny that i want republicans to hold their politicians.

Good for you, selise, I agree. Scrutiny. Somebody ought to write a song…

Eureka Springs @ 159

Hugh @ 158

BTW here’s the blurb from a story at the NYT by the ever insightful Michael Gordon:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin

This is sadly funny on so many levels. Our military accusing someone else of not having plans. Another case of blaming the Iraqis. The myth of progress in Iraq already being hedged. That Iraqis are returning because they are running out of money possibly to homes in areas that have been ethnically cleansed.

Don’t you think failing to plan is the Bushco plan? (shock doctrine with a touch of genocide)

I think they planned all of it, and I think they regard it as no different than placing a roach bomb to….what are they now calling it…”clear and hold”…They always tell you exactly what they are gonna do, and they do it. That is the reason it is so insane. If you can believe what Naomi Klein is saying…then you have to look back and realize what they’ve accomplished so far…they are right on schedule…they are capable of anything and everything. They do have a plan, and it ain’t pretty, it’s just that it is so blatant that people find it unbelievable.

scrutiny, mutiny, loot…

Funny D – That is a good question- the beer drinking test! (I will try to be honest)

Hillary-no (she will want white wine)
Richardson-maybe. He would drink but seem distracted.
Obama-yes. I invision talking sports
Edwards-no (somehow in my imagination he would ask for a coke).
Kuchinich – would he ask for carrot juice?

Rudy-No. He would be a mean drunk
Romney-No. He doesn’t drink I think
Paul-yes.
Huckleberry – over my dead body!

LL @ 148

Probably already mentioned here, but it’s worth noting that the NSDAP exploited economic disaster by blaming the Other. It worked extremely well for them too.

The GOP is simply taking yet ANOTHER page from the Nazi playbook. You’d think someone in MSM would call them on it, seeing as this borrowing is so blazingly obvious..but, alas, no.

Say what? Got some links?

Funnydiva2002 @ 161

So…I can’t even remember who Bill C beat out for the Dem nomination that first time. Was it close? Did we, the inattentive we, in our ignorance pass over the better candidate for the guy we’d most want to share a beer with?

here’s the 1992 dem primary from wikipedia

i think the lesson, for me, was that it’s not good enough to vote and then to forget about it for 4 years. being an engaged citizen requires paying attention and holding our politicians accountable 24/7.

Putin-y

SnarKassandra @ 172

Putin-y

***

Putin-y against Scrutiny? Lot of that going around, these days…

Booman Rawks… “The 9ui11iani Dream”

http://www.boomantribune.com/

Richmond @ 170

Funny D – That is a good question- the beer drinking test! (I will try to be honest)

Hillary-no (she will want white wine)
Richardson-maybe. He would drink but seem distracted.
Obama-yes. I invision talking sports
Edwards-no (somehow in my imagination he would ask for a coke).
Kuchinich – would he ask for carrot juice?

Rudy-No. He would be a mean drunk
Romney-No. He doesn’t drink I think
Paul-yes.
Huckleberry – over my dead body!

Mr. LS says he thinks they are all closet Jack
Daniels drinkers….Hahahahaha…

KO had this last night,too. With the obvious comparison to Bradbury’s Farenheit 451. Oh, and part of this present-day mandate seems to actually be to draw inferences about a household’s “hate and discontent” from their reading material.

And dont’cha just love that it’s now merely expressing “hate or discontent of the US” that identifies a potential terrorist. And don’t tell me that’s defined as hate and discontent of the US constitution. Anyone with half of a functioning brain cell at this point should be able to see that in this case US=Bush Admin. L’etat c’est moi indeed.

There’s just not enough spit to do this one justice.

FunnyD

AZ Matt @ 165

Dirty Repugs are turning everyone into spys. Next they will be asking children to report discontent of their parents.

>Firefighters asked to report people who express discontent with the government

David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Thursday November 29, 2007

It was revealed last week that firefighters are being trained to not only keep an eye out for illegal materials in the course of their duties, but even to report back any expression of discontent with the government.

A year ago, Homeland Security gave security clearances to nine New York City fire chiefs and began sharing intelligence with them. Even before that, fire department personnel were being taught “to identify material or behavior that may indicate terrorist activities” and were also “told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States.”

Unlike law enforcement officials, firemen can go onto private property without a warrant, not only while fighting fires but also for inspections. “It’s the evolution of the fire service,” said a Phoenix, AZ fire chief of his information-sharing arrangement with law enforcement.

…

Raw Story

Puty – he drink Wodka, and he drinks them all under the table.

Hugh @ 157

BTW here’s the blurb from a story at the NYT by the ever insightful Michael Gordon:

American military officials said the Iraqi government had yet to develop a plan to absorb an influx of refugees returning to Baghdad and prevent it from setting off a new round of violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin

This is sadly funny on so many levels. Our military accusing someone else of not having plans. Another case of blaming the Iraqis. The myth of progress in Iraq already being hedged. That Iraqis are returning because they are running out of money possibly to homes in areas that have been ethnically cleansed.

People cannot be this stupid. I think it’s a matter of trust. People have grown up watching/listening to the news, and they just trust it. Certainly there is a corporation that would like to make money on smart people.?

Plus, here I can only get tv if I buy cable or direct.

LS @ 176

Richmond @ 170

Funny D – That is a good question- the beer drinking test! (I will try to be honest)

Hillary-no (she will want white wine)
Richardson-maybe. He would drink but seem distracted.
Obama-yes. I invision talking sports
Edwards-no (somehow in my imagination he would ask for a coke).
Kuchinich – would he ask for carrot juice?

Rudy-No. He would be a mean drunk
Romney-No. He doesn’t drink I think
Paul-yes.
Huckleberry – over my dead body!

Mr. LS says he thinks they are all closet Jack
Daniels drinkers….Hahahahaha…

Hmmm. I sort of like that idea!
I forgot Thompson. No. I think I would catch his eyes wandering for the nearest pair of exposed honkers ;-)

Edwards, Diet coke

bg @ 181

Edwards, Diet coke

do you know the stuff that makes it sweet is poisin?

bg @ 181

Edwards, Diet coke

Of course. Missed that!

Richmond @ 184

bg @ 181

Edwards, Diet coke

Of course. Missed that!

That’s funny.

Kassie: Aspertame. Poison.

No, no, nooooooo!
I was using the beerdrinking as a metaphor for how we got fooled by Clinton 42.
I in NO WAY advocate the beer drinking test in regards to choosing Pres #44. Not even as fun. Not even as snark. Eeeeeeew.

FunnyD

Richmond @ 169

Funny D – That is a good question- the beer drinking test! (I will try to be honest)

Hillary-no (she will want white wine)
Richardson-maybe. He would drink but seem distracted.
Obama-yes. I invision talking sports
Edwards-no (somehow in my imagination he would ask for a coke).
Kuchinich – would he ask for carrot juice?

Rudy-No. He would be a mean drunk
Romney-No. He doesn’t drink I think
Paul-yes.
Huckleberry – over my dead body!

The Diet part I know from personal experience.

Pelosi…Martini..or Manhattan?
DC: Those two or Scotch on the rocks.
Whiskey sour for some…

Are we out of effluent?

bg @ 188

Are we out of effluent?

The GOP’s two main constituencies: the affluent and the effluent.

Queen Judy? Long Island Ice Tea

W – effluent on the rocks.

LS @ 192

W – effluent on the rocks.

W = brain full of rocks

I guess I should keep a copy of Farenteit 451 prominently displayed in my house in case the fire department comes in for an “inspection.”

bg @ 190

Are we out of effluent?

Nope! It is still trickling.

SnarKassandra @ 181

bg @ 181

Edwards, Diet coke

do you know the stuff that makes it sweet is poisin?

say thank you to donald rumsfeld.

selise @ 171

Funnydiva2002 @ 161

So…I can’t even remember who Bill C beat out for the Dem nomination that first time. Was it close? Did we, the inattentive we, in our ignorance pass over the better candidate for the guy we’d most want to share a beer with?

here’s the 1992 dem primary from wikipedia

i think the lesson, for me, was that it’s not good enough to vote and then to forget about it for 4 years. being an engaged citizen requires paying attention and holding our politicians accountable 24/7.

Yes indeedy, I think that’s the lesson for me, too. And it really was a weak starting grid for the dems in ‘91, wunnit? Because IIRC, even Al Gore in ‘91 was not the potential statesman he is now. And Jerry Brown?!!! Jay Rockefeller has shown his blue dog stripes recently….Yuk. Almost as bad as Dukakis v Bush in 88, which I sat out.

And our balancing act will be how to be effective at demanding accountability without having that perceived as violating Jane Hamsher’s First Law of Progressive Politics: Never, ever, EVER use the right’s talking points against your own party. Ever.

FunnyD

Funnydiva2002 @ 196 –

that’s a tough rule. i need to occasionally use the word “liar” and “coward” and “complicit”…

Jane @#132:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty damned cool too. Thanks for inviting me along.

bg @ 184

Kassie: Aspertame. Poison.

Aspartame/Nutrasweet/Equal
NeuroTransmitter Analog
Poison because in high concentrations it acts like a neuro-transmitter (the chemicals that go from nerve to nerve and keep you moving and thinking and stuff). Lots and lots of reports of people having seizures associated with consuming a lot of diet soda sweetened with aspartame.

I know, you didn’t ask. Just had to demonstrate that I’m not always a knee-jerk defender of chemicals. Why do I avoid aspartame and accept pthalates? Because I don’t _eat_ my Fimo/Sculpey. Oh, and because aspartame just doesn’t taste good to me. Yuk.

FunnyDiva
Real sugar and real butter, please. My body has evolved to cope with those.

David Neiwert @ 200

Jane @#132:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty damned cool too. Thanks for inviting me along.

woohoo! excellent news

Funnydiva2002 @ 198

selise @ 171

here’s the 1992 dem primary from wikipedia

i think the lesson, for me, was that it’s not good enough to vote and then to forget about it for 4 years. being an engaged citizen requires paying attention and holding our politicians accountable 24/7.

Yes indeedy, I think that’s the lesson for me, too. And it really was a weak starting grid for the dems in ‘91, wunnit? Because IIRC, even Al Gore in ‘91 was not the potential statesman he is now. And Jerry Brown?!!! Jay Rockefeller has shown his blue dog stripes recently….Yuk. Almost as bad as Dukakis v Bush in 88, which I sat out.

And our balancing act will be how to be effective at demanding accountability without having that perceived as violating Jane Hamsher’s First Law of Progressive Politics: Never, ever, EVER use the right’s talking points against your own party. Ever.

FunnyD

With that Dem field, if Bill hadn’t won the nomination, it would have been 0 Dem President for the last 28 years instead of 1.

neurophius @ 193

I guess I should keep a copy of Farenteit 451 prominently displayed in my house in case the fire department comes in for an “inspection.”

And a facsimile of the original “Alice’s Restaurant” album cover!

‘cept those gung-ho whippersnapper firefighting spies are likely to be even younger than I am and not get the message at all.

FunnyD

LS @ 188

Pelosi…Martini..or Manhattan?
DC: Those two or Scotch on the rocks.
Whiskey sour for some…

Perhaps a Brandy Alexander?

Bonne Soir, Suzanne…

selise @ 197

Funnydiva2002 @ 196 –

that’s a tough rule. i need to occasionally use the word “liar” and “coward” and “complicit”…

That’s OK, because I’m sure most of the time you don’t define them as the right does or use them for the same reasons the Right does.
Hey! It’s the dawning of the Age of IOKIYAProgressive!!!

FunnyD

Funnydiva2002 @ 204

neurophius @ 193

I guess I should keep a copy of Farenteit 451 prominently displayed in my house in case the fire department comes in for an “inspection.”

And a facsimile of the original “Alice’s Restaurant” album cover!

‘cept those gung-ho whippersnapper firefighting spies are likely to be even younger than I am and not get the message at all.

FunnyD

I don’t have the original album; would an original copy of the cookbook do?

Loo Hoo. @ 205

LS @ 188

Pelosi…Martini..or Manhattan?
DC: Those two or Scotch on the rocks.
Whiskey sour for some…

Perhaps a Brandy Alexander?

Ha, ha!

LHP upstairs now

Funnydiva2002 @ 200

bg @ 184

Kassie: Aspertame. Poison.

Aspartame/Nutrasweet/Equal
NeuroTransmitter Analog
Poison because in high concentrations it acts like a neuro-transmitter (the chemicals that go from nerve to nerve and keep you moving and thinking and stuff). Lots and lots of reports of people having seizures associated with consuming a lot of diet soda sweetened with aspartame.

I know, you didn’t ask. Just had to demonstrate that I’m not always a knee-jerk defender of chemicals. Why do I avoid aspartame and accept pthalates? Because I don’t _eat_ my Fimo/Sculpey. Oh, and because aspartame just doesn’t taste good to me. Yuk.

FunnyDiva
Real sugar and real butter, please. My body has evolved to cope with those.

And it can hurt people that already have neurologicle problems.

Steve-AR @ 201

Funnydiva2002 @ 198

Yes indeedy, I think that’s the lesson for me, too. And it really was a weak starting grid for the dems in ‘91, wunnit? Because IIRC, even Al Gore in ‘91 was not the potential statesman he is now. And Jerry Brown?!!! Jay Rockefeller has shown his blue dog stripes recently….Yuk. Almost as bad as Dukakis v Bush in 88, which I sat out.

And our balancing act will be how to be effective at demanding accountability without having that perceived as violating Jane Hamsher’s First Law of Progressive Politics: Never, ever, EVER use the right’s talking points against your own party. Ever.

FunnyD

With that Dem field, if Bill hadn’t won the nomination, it would have been 0 Dem President for the last 28 years instead of 1.

Oh, Lordy, is it THAT long since the Carter years? I’m THAT old? Say it isn’t so, PLEEEEZE!

FunnyD

“Is a great American political party really going to base its entire presidential appeal on scapegoating the Other?”

Is this a serious question? That has been the Republican strategy since at least Nixon… maybe before.

LS @ 179

Puty – he drink Wodka, and he drinks them all under the table.

Never ever drink with a former KGB guy!

But still, why would he get under the table before drinking?

Maybe Putin and Kasparov could have a drinking contest and winner take all! LOL

Richmond @ 116

What would really scare the pants off Nancy, Rahm, Steny, Schumer, DiFi and the rest is if we would start petitions in the various states to stop foreign government lobbists from having tax exempt status. That would also pretty much end all the pro-mid-east war hawk funds.

Yes revoke the tax exempt status of lobbyist and healthcare. Neither lessens the burdens of governemnt. In fact they effect the decisions of policy makers, linining pockets in the procees and in many case bankrupting Americans, while the well represented interests flourish……………………

In reality we are facing the same threat, our forefathers faced as the mecantilist corporate interests of the KIng of England and his cohorts in crime “used” the American colonist for the glory of England. Well in todays terms its the glory Exxon MObile and “Executive Oil,” and “we the people” find oursevles in the identical posotion as did our forefathers, raped by Corporaticgovernment. Wake up america……… you have been made numb by beer commercials, the booze you consume and “Dancing with ther Stars, the indiscretions of Brittany and the loser OJ. These issues are all more important than the usurpation of our constitution, under the color of law by defacto facsist!!!!!!

‘Men will be conditoned by men in little black boxes” Does anyone know whose quote this is??? This person was an “enlightened man!”

Jane Hamsher @ 132

How excited am I that David Neiwert is going to be posting a regular column on Thursdays at FDL?

Pretty effin’ cool if you ask me.

Beyond cool. After providing mountains of evidence that brown people are targeted, David’s most frightening point is that it has become normal.

Hate radio is broadcasting 24/7. Fake News has become standard fare.

The middle class has been worn down by assault after assault from the GOP. Worn down, broke, looking for affordable colleges for the kids, stuck with gas guzzling cars, angry. The American couple raising children has gone from a one paycheck family to a four paycheck family, two jobs each to get by.

It can be easy to hate the ones that are being set up by the GOP to take the blame.

This is one of those Times of History. Study it and you will see that societies have sunk into the many horrors of racism at just such a juncture.

Education is key. I hope we have time.

Hey Beantown1775, Hockey fan? What does it take to awake the slumbering??? Any comments on Mass Healthcare Reform and Blue Cross Blue Shield and the rest of the tax-exempt not for profit, yet very profitable healthcare lobby in Mass buddying up to the legislature to impose healthcare reform via mandated health coverage. Is this constitutional? Has the IRS failed to enforce the rules of inurement as the legislature fails to address the ability of people to pay costly premiums and instead comes down with a mandate. HOw is this healthcare reform? This is healthcare fraud.

Beantown 1775 “The middle class has been worn down by assault after assault from the GOP. Worn down, broke, looking for affordable colleges for the kids, stuck with gas guzzling cars, angry. The American couple raising children has gone from a one paycheck family to a four paycheck family, two jobs each to get by.

We the people find oursevles in the identical position as did our forefathers, raped by Corporaticgovernment. Wake up america……… you have been made numb by beer commercials, the booze you consume and “Dancing with the Stars, the indiscretions of Brittany and the loser OJ. These issues are all more important than the usurpation of our constitution, under the color of law by defacto facsist!!!!!!”

James Joyce @ 217

Hey Beantown1775, Hockey fan? What does it take to awake the slumbering??? Any comments on Mass Healthcare Reform and Blue Cross Blue Shield and the rest of the tax-exempt not for profit, yet very profitable healthcare lobby in Mass buddying up to the legislature to impose healthcare reform via mandated health coverage. Is this constitutional? Has the IRS failed to enforce the rules of inurement as the legislature fails to address the ability of people to pay costly premiums and instead comes down with a mandate. HOw is this healthcare reform? This is healthcare fraud.

“Is this constitutional?”
Great question.
I don’t know the answer, but I will be looking around for it.
If anyone out there understands the constitutionality of mandating that people buy health insurance, I would very interested in knowing more.

Oh, and James, I was a hockey fan, back in the day.
Right now, the Celtics are looking pretty good.

I would’ve loved to have had more coverage of the Republican’s appearances down here in South Florida. Just like George Bush and his good ole brother Jeb, the pandering to the cubans, who boat over to our shores and swim onto the beach only to be welcomed with flowers and gifts of handouts, these anti-immigration candidates all welcomed these new “Americans” and shook hands, acting like they were immigrant lovers too (as long as they’ve been voting Republican). Not a word about the poor , starving Haitian people (dark brown ones) that try the same only to be jailed and then set adrift to find their way back to an island with no resources or food or jobs or Am,erican support. By the way, in all the appearances in Little Havanna (sometimes called Miami), there was not an American flag in sight. Plenty of Cuban flags though. Funny how that wasn’t ever noted by the media. Does anyone wonder why the Chairman of the Republican Party has recently resigned? Yep, he’s Sen. Mel Martinez, Cuban-American from Florida. I think he may have been uncomfortable talking about the brown ones like the other Republicans do. Not to mention what the other 3 South Florida Congresspeople don’t mention. That they are 3 Cuban-Americans (Ross-Lehtinen and 2 Diaz-Balarts) that vote as a block for anything George Bush wants them to .

You forgot to mention that Ramos and Compean are Mexican-Americans and that they are “browner” than Aldrete-Davila, so enough of the racist crap and try to focus on the fact that Aldrete-Davila had entered the country illegally! On 11/15/07, two weeks ago, the sainted victim was arrested crossing into El Paso, on charges of possession and intent to distribute marijuana. This done, in 9/05 and 10/05, while he was under immunity to testify against Ramos and Copean. Just thought a little balance was needed.