[Please welcome Caroline Fredrickson of the ACLU to discuss the pending FISA/RESTORE legislation. As always with guests, please stay on topic and be polite -- any off-topic discussions should be taken to the prior thread. -- CHS]
As the Joe Klein flap (H/T Glenn) has raged forward, with one Time misstep after another, I kept asking myself from whom he could have gotten such inaccurate information. Wonder no more:
Klein Kerfuffle
FISA facts.By Peter Hoekstra
Over the last week, a venomous debate has raged between Time columnist Joe Klein and his far-Left critics about the meaning of Democratic legislation aimed at how foreign targets in foreign countries are treated under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. With respect to the arguments of his critics, Klein rightly pointed out that, “This is all a partisan waste of time, fodder for lawyers and civil liberties extremists.” He also was correct that we should be seeking bipartisan consensus on critical national security issues rather than using them as pawns to further extreme political agendas.
As one of Klein’s sources for the complex technical and legal points that seem to be in contention — and because Klein, his critics, and Democrats in Congress have accused Republicans of trying to “misrepresent” these issues — it is important to correct and clarify the record on three critical points, which also bear heavily on the broader debate currently at hand.
First, the issue in both the Protect America Act that became law in August and the legislation currently under consideration in Congress, is how to ensure effective surveillance of foreign intelligence targets in foreign countries. The issue is not nor has it ever been about surveillance of Americans, as some Democrats have irresponsibly suggested. Under any of these bills, if the intelligence community wanted to target an American in the United States for surveillance, it would need to obtain an individualized court order.
The straw-man complaint of the Left, however, is that Americans who talk to targeted foreigners in foreign countries might incidentally have their conversations intercepted. It takes a pretty good degree of self-absorption or paranoia for someone to believe that efforts to target al-Qaeda operatives in foreign countries are somehow about them. If someone in the U.S. is talking to al-Qaeda, I believe most Americans would not find it controversial that the intelligence community needs to know about it and in fact would expect our intelligence professionals to be aware of it….
And it keeps on going. The level of mendacity in this self-serving, factually and legally inaccurate tripe would be shocking if I didn’t see the reason for it: Klein is in a bind for not double checking on his facts, Time is embarassed because they didn’t bother to do so either, and Hoekstra is livid that his GOP tap dance is in danger of being exposed as shill service for the WH – so he’s trying to spin his way out of the inaccuracies of his own planting.
What Hoekstra hopes for is that, again, members of the press and the public won’t bother to read the FISA language and the RESTORE Act itself. Or the Fourth Amendment. (Please note that I’ve linked up an annotated version here for those who need extra explanatory information on constitutional and rule of law principles.)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. (emphasis mine)
Please also note that the 4th Amendment doesn’t have language to the effect of “enforce when you feel like it” (as we have already parsed any number of ways) and that it does not apply to foreigners. Period.
Wired has a very simple explanation as to how this is actually working:
…Under FISA when the NSA wants to spy from inside the United States (other than capturing radio waves), the NSA has to prove to a court that it has probable cause to believe the targets are terrorists or spies. Then the court lets NSA order Google to help it spy. If its an emergency, the NSA sends the order, then convinces the court.
Under the Protect America Act, if the NSA thinks these guys aren’t going to be communicating with Americans (in this and many cases, highly unlikely), it can just order Google to comply. No warrant is necessary.
If the targets then do write to an American through the Gmail account, the government has to “minimize” the information, or if they want to use it to target the American or keep the name of the American for intelligence purposes, they have to go prove to the court that the targets are likely bad guys. If the communication with the American shows a likely attack, the government can use it without a court order.
If the government suspects that targeted “persons” it thinks are foreigners might communicate with Americans AND they want to wiretap from inside the United States, it can ask the court for a warrant that lasts for a year. All that must be proved is that the targets are likely to be bad guys. The information sought doesn’t even have to be related to terrorism – it simply has to be ‘foreign intelligence’ information.
Any communications with Americans has to hide their names, unless a fairly high level official decides it is necessary to know the name to understand the communication or if it is necessary for national security.
Now, the statute uses the word “persons” in this section.
Klein seized on this to say that the bill gives the same rights to terrorists as to Americans, since some Republicans say the word “person” means the government must individually name each foreign target when it wants an order to wiretap inside the United States. Dems say that’s silly.
The correction basically says it’s impossible to know.
But FISA defines person as “any individual, including any officer employee of the Federal Government, or any group, entity, association, corporation, or foreign power.”…
Also more here. Reporting skillz 101: read the original material and take no one’s word for anything without double and triple checking it. Get opposing points of view. Not so hard. And yet, unfortunately, not done nearly enough.
Given the recent federal court decision in the EFF suit requiring fast track release of telecom lobbying actions (PDF) on behalf of immunity on this legislation (more here), I think we all need to take a step back and ask ourselves why exactly they are in such a rush to shield themselves retroactively and prospectively from civil and criminal penalties if they don’t think they broke the law in the first place? Because it seems to me that handing them a grand gift of forgiveness for blatantly breaking expressly drafted US law runs contrary to everything I know about squeezing a perpetrator who has made wholesale admissions against interest. Let alone asking questions about the rampant use of the state secrets doctrine to cover governmental tracks on extralegal activities.
But then, perhaps that’s because I’m looking at this through an enforcement of the rule of law lens as opposed to a milking my latest cash cow one.
Which leads me to today’s guest, Caroline Fredrickson, director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. We’ve asked Caroline to give us an update on the status of the various FISA law updates in the Senate and House, and to talk about the outstanding legal questions and problems that remain in each, let alone the legislative questions. And what we can do to help with all of this. With that, I welcome Caroline and open the floor to questions.




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Oh, this is all just too complicated for me. *shaking head* I think I’ll just believe Mr. Hoekstra. /snark
This is all too confusing for me. I’ll just read TIME to find out what it’s all about.
Morning everyone. Welcome to Caroline and all the folks from the ACLU who’ve agreed to drop by and update us on where things stand at the moment. (or at least where we think things stand because, frankly, it’s gotten way too murky for my comfort level of late…)
Sorry for being impolite Ms. Frederickson. Welcome & I look forward to your insight on this issue. In a sense, I’m more interested in the behind-the-scenes. Why are some Ds having such a hard time coming out on the right side?
eCAHN, we were thinking almsot the same thing there. You’ll take Hoekstra’s word. I’ll take Klein’s. Same thing.
Hey beerfart-great minds!
“far-Left critic” here, I guess.
Actually a moderate independent.
We at The Institute for The In-Depth Study of Inscrutable Blinding Glimpses of The Obvious know why the rush for blanket retroactive indemnity.
I’ll take “far-Left critic” for $400, Alex.
Stopped to read– passed up the zed! Good post! Thanks!
Welcome to Caroline
Bob in HI
OHH!! Daily Double!!
Welcome, ACLU.
Hello Caroline, thanks for coming.
The EFF victory was a little more substantial than most people (who are not lawyers and have not read the opinion) are getting: the judge granted an injunction compelling the DNI to produce the documents re the contacts between Telcos and McConnell and the the DNI and the the DNI and either or both Houses re amending FISA, and that it be done by 12/10, precisely because Congress is considering whether and how to amend FISA and this information has a possibility of being very important in that debate.
Go read the opinion (it’s a 12 page .pdf):
http://www.eff.org/files/filen….._order.pdf
From the opinion, here’s what they wanted, and what the judge compelled the government to produce:
I had put this up in the comments yesterday afternoon shortly after it moved on the wires, but to all appearances the crowd had already moved on to another thread….
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nt-1120857
Bjt seriously. I do jhave a query. I mean, this IS confusing. At least for me. This is where I get confused: Foreigner believed to be AQ is communicating with an American. Now, it matter to them how they intercept the communication as long as they do, right? But in that instance, if they want to monitor the America, they need a warrant, right? Here’s my problem: Can’t they monitor the from the AQ end without a warrant? If so, how would that change under the propsed legislation?
Hello everybody!
As you all probably know, recently the, the House passed the “RESTORE Act” on partisan lines. The bill made some improvements in the “Protect America Act” that was rushed through Congress in August. Most importantly, it reasserted the intelligence court’s role in approving surveillance before it takes place — a lot of the improvement was due to the concerted efforts of the Progressive Caucus, and Congressman Rush Holt, bolstered by grassroots and netroots pressure.
The RESTORE ACT had no telecom immunity provisions whatsoever.
The ACLU still had concerns, however, with the so-called “basket warrant” structure of the bill. The House bill allows the FISA Court to issue year long programmatic orders – that identify neither the target nor the facilities to be tapped. We believe this raises serious Fourth Amendment concerns, as “general” or “program” warrants have long been rejected by the courts.
In the Senate, the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees have reported out two very different bills. The Intelligence bill largely makes the “Protect America Act” permanent. The only role for the court is after mass surveillance has begun, and then its only involvement is to approve the procedures by which the surveillance will be conducted. It also allows the Attorney General to single-handedly dismiss any pending case against a communication service provider who turned over customer info since 9/11. In other words, it gives immunity to the phone companies.
The Judiciary bill is better in two very important respects. First, it does not provide any immunity for the telecoms. Second, it includes a very important caveat inserted by Sen. Feingold – that surveillance can only collect communications to which at least one party is a “specific individual target.” This seemingly prevents the government from conducting mass, untargeted collection allowed by the House bill and the Senate Intel bill.
Next week, probably toward the end of the week, the Senate will take up FISA, although we have not been given a date certain. Procedurally, the Intelligence bill is the base bill – the Judiciary bill is pending as a substitute. Of course, both can be amended (and filibustered).
Senator Dodd among others has said he will filibuster any bill with telecom immunity. Well, his first chance comes on the Motion to Proceed. He’s got to come to the floor and stay there. Reid will no doubt file cloture — which is the mechanism to end a filibuster. A vote on the cloture motion happens 36 hours after filing. Unless Dodd leaves the floor for any reason in which case Reid can quickly bring an end to the process.
So, what’s important now is to ensure that Dodd has help in sustaining the filibuster and in voting against cloture. We’ve heard from some other Dems that they oppose immunity but from very few that they will actually try to stop a bill. Voices from constituents are really important to put pressure on Senators to join the filibuster.
Hello Caroline,
Your insights will be greatly appreciated.
Caroline — Do we have any sense at this point whether this is even going ot move forward in the Senate for debate or otherwise on December 3rd? Or has the date been changed? I’m getting conflicting reports and a lot of tap dancing — but nothing solid on voting time frame. Do you guys have any specifics or calendar information you can share?
Hello, Christy.
Welcome, Caroline.
scribe @ 13
Knowing about any of this Aids The Terrists.
;)
Oh, and not to divert from the thread, but the Greenwald v. Klein battle is starting to get attention in the wider media, viz this post
http://gawker.com/news/catfigh…..327927.php
from Gawker.com.
Welcome, Caroline. Thank you so much for the ACLU’s efforts on this.
I understand the “democratic process” on this bill has moved underground now (especially in the Senate), behind closed doors, for more of that Reid deal-making sleight of hand. The end result will no doubt be a sudden Unanimous Consent request that flies through on the Senate floor sometime next week. Chris Dodd’s hold be damned.
Do you have any inside information about how Jay Rockefeller’s lobbying on behalf of Cheney and Addington, and their Senate Intelligence Committee FISA bill work product, is playing with Reid?
I have really one issue with the democrats though, they insist on using terminology that does not serve their cause
for instance, when an official can survail without a warrant that is saying nobody is going to check and make sure the information they are acquiring is for security purposes and without someone to check they are given license to steal, plain and simple.
the main purpose of requiring a warrant is not to help us hide things we are embarrassed, it’s to help us hide things we are proud, our life work, our contacts, our manuscripts, the trade secrets we’ve acquired over our lifetime
those are the things we need to keep from prying eyes
so the proper terminology should be;
“why wouldn’t you want a judge making sure you are not stealing?”
that’s the real way to frame the fisa discussion, not some abstract; “it’s against the constitution”, or “it violates my rights”…sure those things are true but they are too abstract for most people to understand why it’s important not to violate these rights…in other words, we must present the practical ramifications of not making sure there is no stealing going on.
Caroline,
Welcome to the Lake!
What I’d like to get out of this is a list of principles, like the ones the Congressional Progressive Caucus came up with several months ago (on their website), by means of which to guide evaluate any FISA proposal. They wrote out each principle in whole sentences, but my list would include things like
*No blanket immunity for anyone or anything
*No basket warrants
*”Probable cause” rather than “reasonable belief” as the standard
*retention of the role of the FISA courts rather than transferring that role to any part of the executive branch,
etc.
What list of principles should we use for guides?
Bob in HI
Welcome Caroline.
This isn’t a question as much as a suggestion. One of the things that struck me reading the FISA legislation is the absence of any definition or reason for identifying a “target.” In Hoekstra’s piece, and almost invariably in discussions like Klein’s, the words “target” and “terrorist” are used interchangably. In fact, I don’t think Hoekstra used any other noun.
I think it’s important to remind people that while the public justification of these intrusions are “terrorists” and “al qaeda” that is not what the statutes refer to.
FWIW, gang, the Wired article I link and quote from above has a great explanation on “basket warrants” that is both readable and clear. In case folks have lingering questions on that particular issue, click through the link and read it for even more information. I also link up an older post of mine that lines out the legalities and problems with it in non-legalese, also linked above.
Christy, in answer to your question about timing, we’ve heard that the bill won’t come to the floor until at least mid-week next week, not the 3d, maybe the 5th. I could see it slipping even more.
The idea is that the Dems feel like they need to spend some time on Iraq (imagine that!), coming back from their “district work periods.” So how many days will they talk about the war? hard to say. Also, they’re so so behind on the funding bills that they’ve got to pass before the holidays.
Still, current expectations are that we’ll be on the bill by the end of next week.
And let me also flesh out a bit the Senate rules on filibusters. A “hold” is really just a note to the leader that a Senator wants a chance to object to a motion to proceed. When there’s an objection (which has to be made in person), the leader can decide to move to other business or can file cloture on the motion to proceed. If the leader files for cloture, then the Senator who objected has to stay on the floor to filibuster. But if the Senator doesn’t actually show up to filibuster than no filibuster can happen.
Count me and my significant other among the paranoid. And a good portion of Asia.
Hello Caroline!
As for the timing question above, it is still unclear. We understand that the Senate will be turning to Iraq on the 3rd – and FISA after that. It’s hard to predict these things, so we are aiming to be ready to go on Wednesday if need be. It’s never too soon to get started!
perris @ 22
You make great points.
My only reply to objection on abstract Constitutional grounds is that the 4th Amendment was clearly intended to confer a presumptive right to privacy. Not “absolute,” just presumptive. Meaning that you, the private citizen, do not have the burden of proof of the “reasonableness” of your particulars. The government has the burden of proof of establishing probable cause. It helps to not lose sight of that, I think.
Bork once irascibly retorted “privacy to do what, Senator?” during his ill-starred confirmation hearings. Dude had it all wrong, 180 back-assed. How cats can get through law school and the Bar exam and not understand this escapes me.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 25
What we all as a society need is a lot more clarity, rationality and care. Not that we’re likely to get it soon, but ….
Actually, we can’t expect to get it. We need to drive the discussion to compel it.
As to the ACLU rep – what about Reid further delaying the vote to accommodate the Court order in the EFF case – has anyone brought that up, or thought about it.
And, FWIW, in a conversation with a Congresscritter of my acquaintance a couple weeks back when the House was working on this bill, I made a strong case against retroactive immunity. To paraphrase the response: “it won’t be in the House version, but will ultimately get ironed out in the conference committee.” Anyone working on that?
Any word on what Harry Reid will do? Never mind I just read above. Why is Reid working against us?!?
Bob, those Progressive Caucus principles are shared by the ACLU. We have worked closely with the Caucus on this legislation and we’re very aligned.
And to Jay, exactly! The President’s acolytes love the word “target” but what exactly does it mean? That was exactly our argument on why individual warrants are still required — just because the DNI has said that an American is not the “target,” if the DNI is tapping that person’s phone then the DNI should have to get a warrant. Basic 4th Amendment.
Caroline and Michelle — I know this is a bit of inside baseball, but there has been speculation that Reid was fudging the calendaring on this to prevent Dodd from being in the Senate to filibuster. With the Iowa caucuses coming up on Jan. 3rd, it’s cutting campaigning close for him — and the other Presidential candidates. I’ve asked Reid’s office about this a couple of times and have been told cetegorically that is not the case, but the rumors keep persisting.
Any inside information on this that you can share? Are you hearing the same things on both ends of this?
I think the uncertainty on so many aspects of the parliamentary procedure and other legislative procedural issues really lends itself to rampant speculation — which can be incredibly counterproductive to pushing things forward in a proactive manner. Whatever thoughts you all have on how to best push a rule of law agenda forward, I’m sure this crowd is all ears on how they can help. Thanks!
We really need a reporter to get Harry Reid on the public record, explaining why he is steamrolling right over a very important public hold announced by a member of his own party. And whether this means he will do the same to his Nevada colleague Ensign’s hold on Senate campaign record computerization, and on every other hold in the Senate going forward, thereby effectively ending the practice and custom of individual Senate holds. [Holds which used to mean that a bill was not brought to the floor in any form, nor was a motion to proceed made, nor was a cloture motion made, so long as one Senator maintained his or her reasonable and principled “hold” on (objection to) a piece of legislation or a nomination.]
jayacrkroyd — Your concern about “targeting” language is right on. The Administration and its friends have justified this program by saying that if you’re not the target, you don’t have anything to hide, and most importantly, you don’t have any Fourth Amendment rights. They’ve literally turned the Fourth Amendment on its head — suspects have rights but the innocent do not.
I have a couple of questions:
Does the immunity provision in it’s current state also provide immunity to Government employee’s and office holders?
Can one presume that the current FISA overhaul law that was rushed into law in August was slammed together as a makeshift framework to allow for the TSP program to appear legal?
Thanks in advance for all of your efforts.
Welcome Caroline,
I’ve been concerned about this issue for some time now. I’ve written and called my rep, my senators, as well as other legislators on relevant committees. I’ve given money to progressive orgs (including the ACLU). I live in a state with two Senators on the wrong side of this debate (I call them Republiclones); I can write or call them, but it is highly unlikely that it will have an effect on anything except my stress level.
What else can I or others in this situation do?
I’m wondering if they’ve been listening in on Giuliani, since he fits the description of an American doing business post-9/11 with known Al Qaeda-affiliated persons overseas.
My apologies to Caroline and the ACLU. Got the zed, read, and was called away before I could post this. Back now to finish the comments.
Reid, there’s a good question — what exactly will he do? He will most likely file cloture (if in fact Dodd shows up to object). But we’d encourage everyone to try to let him know that he should honor the filibuster. One thing that often happens as the result of a hold and a potential filibuster is that Senators negotiate to solve the problem. The problem — immunity in the Intell bill — could easily be addressed by agreeing to drop that provision. So Reid could push for Rockefeller to accede to the Judiciary Committee on that point.
Hi Caroline, welcome!
Caroline and Michelle — I know that both Sen. Feingold and Sen. Leahy have done quite a bit of work on this behind the scenes. Sen. Feingold has been especially active on the basket warrants and other constitutional issues in terms of actively working the Dem caucus and the more libertarian end of the GOP for better legislation. Any chance that either of them would filibuster if Dodd isn’t there for a vote for some reason?
You know, christy, if Reid does try to make Dodd choose between campaigning in Iowa and filibustering, I think the campaign may be able to take advantage of that.
Video at scheduled appearance stops of Dodd on the senate floor protecting American rights might actually be more effective than an in-person grin and grip.
Or video house parties with filibuster highlights.
The `campaign has been very creative in using electronic media.
Caroline, this may sound like a silly question. I am reading and reading and I still don’t understand why the intell bill takes precedence(?) over the judiciary bill. Is it true?
from scribe @ 13
Michelle Richardson, ACLU @ 28
should we be asking our senators to delay consideration of this until after these documents have been released (and studied)?
Oh, and speaking of Senators that need some pressure on this, this is the list that I’ve been working off of in terms of potential pressure points. Anything to add or subtract on this in terms of GOP members for our readers who have been making calls and sending faxes? I’ve been working off the “every Democrat needs a call” assumption — but any particular Dems that need extra pressure in your opinion?
NH John Sununu (202) 224-2841 (202) 228-4131
ME Olympia Snowe (202) 224-5344 (202) 224-1946
ME Susan Collins (202) 224-2523 (202) 224-2693
NH Judd Gregg (202) 224-3324 N/A
NE Chuck Hagel (202) 224-4224 (202) 224-5213
MN Norm Coleman (202) 224-5641 (202) 224-1152
NV John Ensign (202) 224-6244 (202) 228-2193
IN Richard Lugar (202) 224-4814 (202) 228-0360
OR Gordon Smith (202) 224-3753 (202) 228-3997
SD John Thune (202)224-2321 (202)228-5429
PA Arlen Specter (202) 224-4254 (202) 228-1229
VA John Warner (202) 224-2023 (202) 224-6295
IA Charles E. Grassley (202) 224-3744 (515) 288-5097
OH George Voinovich (202) 224-3353 (216) 522-7097
Caroline Fredrickson @ 40
Yes, Reid certainly could. Full stop.
Michelle Richardson, ACLU @ 35
Well put. This is the reality that Joe Klein isn’t about to touch with a ten-foot pole.
Why is it with the worst President in our history in the White House with one year left and job approval ratings in the toilet, a commonsense approach to changes in FISA must run the gauntlet of Democrats like Jay Rockefeller and Harry Reid who seem completely incapable of standing up to Bush or the Republicans on anything no matter how crazy or fundamentally contrary to our country’s Constitutional values?
It is bad enough that Democrats must overcome the obstruction of Republicans and Bush but their own leadership undermines them. What’s up with that? Why is Harry Reid more concerned with accommodating Mitch McConnell than his own side?
LS @ 38
For that matter, alledgedly the Bush family itself has had past business dealings with the bin Laden family-certainly through its Saudi connections.
Not to get all tin-foil hatty, but efforts to keep the sun shining on an eventual FISA bill could potentially hurt some very powerful Republicans.
Thank you Caroline (and Michelle) for the work you and the ACLU have done and continue to do.
I would ask how the “War on Christmas” is going but I’ll leave that for your next visit to the Lake. ;-)
Michelle Richardson, ACLU @ 35
“Strict” (and accurate) construction of the 4th Amendment finds that the incontrovertible intent of the Framers (you need look no further than Cuddihy, maybe add a dash of Rakove) was that the private activities or private citizens were to be respected as private absent compelling independent objective showing of the need for their breach by authority (or agents of authority — see “Writs of Assistance”), whereas the activities of those entrusted with public power were to be kept public absent compelling independent objective showing of exigent circumstances requiring that they be held in secret.
This core founding principle of American LIBERTY is by now nearly fully inverted.
Hugh @ 48
It fits with what Jonathan Turley has been saying about this Congress not wanting to touch impeachment — if there is no immunity, and it is shown that this Administration has violated law and/or Constitution, they would [almost] be forced to begin impeachment hearings and the evidence would be pretty clear for removal from office.
selise @ 45
Aids The Terrists.
Hugh @ 48
Follow the telecom money.
I’m still puzzled why that gang of four, including Ashcroft and Comey support telcom immunity. After testifying about that hospital scene, it’s very unclear as to what Comey and Ashcroft objected to. Any ideas?
Christy, I don’t think Reid could really fudge the calendar like this, even if he wanted to. Just too many balls in the air to worry about whether Dodd can get back from Iowa in time.
Irish Jim, the immunity provision doesn’t purport to give immunity to the government employees but in reality if the cases don’t move forward against the telecom companies than no evidence against the DNI and others will ever come into the public eye.
As for the Protect America Act, it does basically make the TSP legal and by providing immunity retroactively essentially makes it legal in the past too.
Christy, I think Leahy and Feingold may well participate in a filibuster but I think they’re still trying to figure out the best way to get rid of immunity and fix other parts of the bill.
Steve in NC, hey I feel your pain! My sister lives in NC too. But there is a lot you can do — first, contact the presidential campaigns. Why hasn’t Clinton said she’d support a filibuster? Ask her campaign to have her speak out. Same for the others. They will care a lot what you think. And any House members — even if not your own House member (since they almost all have state-wide ambitions) should hear from you. The House will be a key player in this drama.
I imagine Reid thinks like Hoekstra that the only people paying attention to anything are the DFH contingent on the net.
I have come to the conclusion that the strategerie the Ds are using is the one that says, in 2008, everything will be blamed on the Rs!!! We win.
Sadly, no. I don’t think that will be the way it works.
Is Sheldon Whitehouse still for telecom immunity? Jay, DiFi and Sheldon seem like an odd trio.
Caroline-
Many thanks for coming by to talk to us. My question relates to alarger issue I think is being obscured by press accounts focusing on the interpretations of the language of the bill: the poential criminal liability of government officials. In terms of seeking truth and accountability for post-9/11 domestic spying, can you briefly contrast for us the possible next steps under the following scenarios?
1. The bill passes with telcom amnesty. Are there any next steps?
2. The bill passes without telcom amnesty. What might we expect to see in the coming months/year in terms of going after wrongdoers?
Many thanks,
jfaustus
Caroline Fredrickson @ 26
This rush at the end is reminiscent of what happened with the Military Commissions Act last year, a truly awful bill passed only through the machinations of Harry Reid to facilitate it.
As for filibusters, why is it that Harry Reid seems willing only to honor those of Republicans and ignore or subvert those of his own party?
IrishJim @ 36
as was discussed in a thread earlier this morning – Jonathan Turley is saying that (quote is from rawstory):
i wonder how our friends at the aclu see this… it’s hard to explain the goals of our D congressional leadership without something like this going on – thank goodness for holt, the progressive caucus and in the senate – dodd, feingold (and anyone willing to help them)
Caroline,
One FISA mystery I hope you can clear up: During the Senate Judiciary Committee markup on FISA, where they passed out only Title I, Diane Feinstein was credited with major work on the “Exclusivity” provision. Yet, I’ve heard no explanation of the significance of this provision. Can you explain the significance of it to us in terms that non-lawyers can understand?
Aloha,
Bob in HI
forgive me if someone else has already asked, more eloquently, but…the central issue around the Klein/Time thing, to me, seems to be one of “Creation Of Reality” (as in the oft-quoted Suskind piece, “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”)
that is, with Time, something–a very important thing–that is demonstrably false is presented as Truth from a magazine that’s at least thought of as our culture’s modern Town Hall–someplace where “news” (here defined as factual) is discussed.
it seems, in this light, that a push back from this community would be key, one that basically–no, *actually* says, “we SEE what you’re doing, here. IT IS A LIE. now, let’s sit down and discuss this, please. actually, no, not “please”. SIT DOWN, NOW.”
sorry, but I really think “Creation Of Reality” needs to be among the biggest crimes ever. its ripple effects have been far too injurious to far too many.
thoughts, please…? :)
I don’t quite understand what Dodd can accomplish with a filibuster. I can’t come up with 41 votes to block cloture. Reid can’t block a cloture petition..it only takes 16 Senators to ask for a cloture vote…What am I missing?
So Joe Klein is nothing more than Pete Hoekstra’s stenographer.
Going forward, Joe Klein should be invited to speak exclusively at stenographer’s conferences instead of journalism schools.
SteveInNC @ 37
don’t know that it will help, but when i call R senators on this i say:
1) please don’t forget that george bush will only be our president for a little more than a year. when you vote to give the president these powers – you are voting to give them to hillary clinton.
2) i remember when the republicans used to work to protect the rights of americans… i hope we can return to that.
Hugh–
As for filibusters, why is it that Harry Reid seems willing only to honor those of Republicans and ignore or subvert those of his own party?
I think what is going on is that Schumer and Reid believe that as long as republicans keep voting in a bloc in unpopular ways, they will pick up more senate seats in November.
In their view, the republicans are self-immolating, and they don’t want to get in the way of that.
on topic
greenwald reports (gleamed from think progress0
Caroline Is Jonathan Turley believable?
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp…..ou-so.html
If what he says is true and the Dems dont want to expose this Admin’s crimes, what can we do?
I just want to thank Caroline and Michelle for all they do. Also, I posted the link to this post over at Swampland. More evidence of Joe Klein’s fraudulence.
In response to SteveInNC (comment #37) nd to amplify Caroline’s response (comment #40):
This is Jeani Murray, I’m the field director here at the ACLU, and have a few additions (also – thanks Christy for sending over the list of Senators with their phone numbers – we have a few additions and I’ll add them momentarily) but first:
We have taken on a number of different tactics to pressure Members of Congress on these issues (petitions, advertising, emails, calls, mtgs directly with them, etc)the constant effort does make a difference. We were very pleased the House version did not contain immunity for the phone companies.
For someone living in a state with senators are not likely to budge, you may want to:
1) make a phone call to the leadership
2) send a letter to the local newspaper
3) call into local radio call-ins
4) continue to advocate via the Internet – if you have a blog, keep writing!
5) contact the offices of the senators who are
running for president.
We are sending out an action alert later this afternoon detailing some other activities folks can do to keep applying the pressure. we’ll send to Christy a link if that would be helpful or you can go to http://www.aclu.org and find it as well.
Thx!
selise @ 60
It’s really annoying. If congress members are fighting for telcom immunity because they believe impeachment is tied to telcom immunity and that is partly responsible for resistance felt from both sides of the aisle on telcom immunity, than it is really hampering our rights as citizens.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 32
Does this mean that the old list is still valid and does not need updating? The current version is dated October 5th.
Bob in HI
Hoekstra is a Michigan west coast far right wing Republican ideologue. What a surprise that he would want to use the press to promote their deception.
Maybe this is a silly question, but I haven’t seen this addressed.
If the US government can spy on foreigners, what stops foreign governments from spying on me? Don’t we have any treaties or UN involvement? The US government contracts out their torture(rendition) and is not charged with conspiracy(RICO?) Have they contracted out their spying to some other government to get around the Fourth Amendment as they have the Fifth?
jayackroyd @ 66
But that is a defeatist attitude. We know some Bush dogs will vote for this nonsense. And once it is law, how certain are we it will get repealed after we retake the White House?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 46
as a tool to help us contact our senators, i made up contact info vCards for all 100 senators (they are cross platform compatible with a wide variety of address books/contact lists/email programs for mac, pc and cell phones). download them here.
Bob, honestly, the exclusivity provision probably won’t mean much if FISA ends up looking like the PAA or Senate Intell bill — it mattered when individual warrants were required. That is, you could only engage in domestic surveillance by complying with FISA and getting warrants. But if FISA as modified by PAA doesn’t require warrants any more than it’s more of a fig leaf than a real protection.
And in answer to the questions about impeachment, I actually think providing immunity has much more to do with the telecoms than with protecting White House lawbreakers.
By the time the case has proceeded all the way to the Supreme Court, most likely W will no longer be president anyway. If the cases proceed. But then again there are criminal penalities . . . .
Bluetoe @ 73
I posted a link to this thread at Swampland. It’s funny that in the time it took me to post it, 2 others posted Hoekstra’s crap too. Joe Klein must be hating the day he agreed to post on Swampland. We won’t let up.
Christy -
Please forgive this interruption. ThinkProgress just reported the following pertinent information:
Court orders Bush administration to disclose telecom ties
I think it would be good to get on the OTHER Time bloggers’ cases for maintaining their wagon-circling radio silence on the issue of journalist ethics. Instead, they’ve been doing nothing but putting fluff pieces up.
jayackroyd @ 66
The problem is they are doing a good job of immolating themselves as well.
I wonder if ads placed in Reid’s state might have some effects.
Hi Stephen — Yep, I have the PDF of the order as well as a summary article on it linked above. Thanks much for the link to Glenn and TP.
What puzzles me is that it seems as though the American conscious has lost sight of the fact that government will always become the greatest danger to it’s own citizens unless it is constrained by law. It is not a matter of the good or bad will of those occupying govt at a particular point in time, oppression is the natural tendency of government. The founders understood this and that is why they crafted so many constraints on government.
This is why the rights in question are not abstract.
What is interesting is that there is a general distrust of govt in the American public but somehow there does not seem to be the connection between the structure of the constitution and having a trustworthy government.
How can we make this connection clear?
Caroline Fredrickson @ 55
i expect to have vCard contact info up for all house members by monday. (same link as for senators above) hope that will help.
selise @ 85
Another silly question. How will the House be a key player in all this. I almost feel the ball is thrown entirely into Reid’s court.
RealWorld @ 84
Exactly.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The empirical basis validating that maxim is dispositive in the human sociopolitical historical record.
If that’s not enough, I have two clinically confirmatory words for you: Zimbardo and Milgram.
What happens if someone is calling to another country or receives a call from another country (say Canada or Mexico) under the legislation the administration wants? Can they just wiretap anyway if without any suspicion or cause, based simply on foreign nature of call?
I also saw the Charlie Rose interview of Charles Rangel who was explaining the Harry Reid basically made an agreement with the GOP Senators that instead of forcing them to actually filibuster he would just count the votes and if he can’t get the 60 votes to end it he just concedes an the bill doesn’t pass, is this really what is happening?
Selise – The vcard contact list is fabulous!
Here are some additional senators we feel need to hear from folks (will send contact info shortly, or folks can go to Selise’s vcard link):
IN Evan Bayh 202-224-5623
WV Robert Byrd 202-224-3954
DE Tom Carper 202-224-2441
PA Robert Casey 202-224-6324
ND Kent Conrad 202-224-2043
ND Byron Dorgan 202-224-2551
CA Dianne Feinstein 202-224-3841
MN Amy Klobuchar 202-224-3244
LA Mary Landrieu 202-224-5824
MI Carl Levin 202-224-6221
CT Joe Lieberman 202-224-4041
AR Blanche Lincoln 202-224-4843
MO Claire McCaskill 202-224-6154
NJ Robert Menendez 202-224-4744
MD Barbara Mikulski 202-224-4654
AK Lisa Murkowski 202-224-6665
AR Mark Pryor 202-224-2353
NV Harry Reid 202-224-3542
WV Jay Rockefeller 202-224-6472
CO Ken Salazar 202-224-5852
NY Chuck Schumer 202-224-6542
MI Debbie Stabenow 202-224-4822
NH John Sununu 202-224-2841
MT John Tester 202-224-2644
VA Jim Webb 202-224-4024
RI Sheldon Whitehouse 202-224-2921
Okay, I have to sign off in a few minutes but I’ll try to address a few more questions. Reid won’t “block a cloture petition” — he’s file it as the leader. It has to be signed by 16 Senators but Reid will easily get that. Once it’s filed then Dodd has to filibuster. And in order to invoke cloture and end the filibuster, supporters of the bill will need 60 votes. Dodd doesn’t actually need 41 technically. So if only 38 Senators vote against cloture but there are only 58 votes for cloture, cloture fails. I’m a Senate rules weanie.
Christy, great list for calls! I think you could add all the Dems on Intell who voted for the bill in committee and the freshman Dems as particular targets.
The House is a player because the House bill and the Senate bill will have to be reconciled in a conference committee. And if the bill they put together can’t pass the House because the Progressive Caucus won’t support it, then they won’t get a bill done.
Which of course is ultimately fine with us because allowing the Protect America Act to expire would be the best solution. If it expires, we simply go back to the original FISA which was much better legislation than anything on the table now.
mui at 86 — After the Senate passes something on this, the Senate and the House will then have to get together via a conference committee to resolve the differences between the Senate legislation and the House/RESTORE Act, which presumably will not be what Reid introduces in the Senate. (If he does, this gets streamlined quite a bit, but I’m hearing it’s not so likely.) The conferees are appointed by the leadership on both sides — and the House conferees will hopefully be folks like Rush Holt and Jerry Nadler, who have been holding the line on civil liberties enforcement issues. If that happens, then it is less likely to be a completely odious bill that gets negotiated between the two houses and then sent for signature to the President.
contact info attached to my last comment (and will also send our action alert link later this afternoon). Thx!
The pathetic answer is probably simply that any Republican hold will be fully backed by every Republican in a cloture motion vote. But only rarely will a Democratic hold be fully backed by every Democrat under Harry Reid’s “leadership” of the Democratic caucus in the Senate. So Reid probably plows ahead whenever he knows he can get 60 votes to roll over a hold (which thus means only over Democratic objections), except when he personally agrees with a particular hold.
Along with “impeachment is off the table,” it’s voluntary unilateral disarmament by the Democrats in Congress. But it doesn’t seem to bother the rank and file party membership in the Legislative Branch a bit, judging by their public silence and refusal to think for themselves in deference to their deeply-flawed party leadership.
Perhaps the fourth and second amendments need to be linked. Prying that gun out of my hand, prying out any info they want. I don’t know how to help the general public understand more clearly.
Does anybody know if Hoekstra’s letter was *solicited* by anyone at Time? As a sort of hey-we’ve-done-your-dirty-work-now-come-save-your-favorite-tool kind of thing? An ex-post-facto “validation” of the “it’s all up to interpretation” is just TOOOOO convenient to accept at face value, imo.
Mui – The House will be critical in the conference process. There will be great pressure on the House conferees to water down their own bill to accommodate the 60 vote requirement in the Senate. We need to keep the pressure on the House members to stand strong on some of the important parts of their bill, such as prior judicial review.
I’m so proud to be known as a far-left extremist because I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
What on earth has become of our country? That one should be labeled “far-left” for wanting to protect those rights that our forefathers have died fighting for?
Caroline, Michelle and Jeani — Thanks SO much for being here. This was very helpful, and I look forward to the information link from you all later this afternoon. Much appreciated!
Couple of things.
A. The original justification for allowing spying, with or without warrant, on “foreign powers” or “agents of foreign powers” (all of which includes a MUCH more mundane group than terrorists) based NOT on probable cause that they were committing a crime, but rather on the MERE probable cause that the conversations involved a “foreign power” was based on the national security and diplomatic aspects that the S. Ct referenced in the Keith case as a kind of possible carve out.
However, now with the Patriot Act and many other changes, we have definitions of “agents of foreign powers” that have nothing to do with original concepts of foreign powers and we have all kinds of ill-defined concepts of what groups are terrorists (PETA? al-Quakers?Crips? Hells Angels?)(a report a year or so ago revealed that the “lists” of what are considered to be terrorist groups varies in a mind boggling manner). More importantly, the justification for allowing the original “spying” to be based on such a lowered standard was that that info was not to be allowed to be used for anything other than the diplomatic purposes that are central to the Exec Branch – now, however we have the laws changed to specifically authorize the spying to collect evidence usable for criminal prosecutions with NO PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE A CRIME IS BEING COMMITTED as long as there can be any tack on that there was some tangential intelligence purpose to the spying, and we have also have the Executive Branch claiming Bill of Attainder rights with respect to its perceived political enemies, such that the “diplomatic” and national defense uses include kidnap, family and child kidnap, torture, depravity, disappearing persons, etc.
Procedurally – how can these evolutions and devolutions be challenged, especially in light of the abysmal result in el-Masri’s case?
B. Don’t we have a catch 22 on the front of trying to provide for judicial oversight of datamining, given the Constitutional constraints involving blanket warrants? How do you have a court, consistent with its duties to the constitution, involve itself in blanket warrants, especially where it will have only oversight duties and NO OVERSIGHT POWER because of the “secret” nature of all the activities?
C. What is the situation vis a vis teleproviders in other countries where they operate if they are making this kind of infomration available to the US for “all foreign” communications, without even the minimal prior constraints of understandable foreign power connection requirements and with the newfound concept of the US being able to troll through all foreign communications in datamining efforts that can be used for criminal prosecutions wholly unrelated to terrorism and that have no oversight to prevent abuses like corporate espionage to benefit US or US Politically favored entities and blackmail?
Hope I didn’t get here too late.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 91
*blush*
Margot at 97 — Yes, I found that particularly appalling as well. And I think folks who are constituents of Pete Hoekstra’s should write some letters to the editor to that effect.
I am deeply offended by the phrase civil liberties extremists. What the hell does that even mean? I’m especially offended that Klein conflates Democrats and “civil liberties extremists.” I anxiously await the day he refers to Republicans as fetal-rights extremists, or authoritarian extremists.
Caroline,
My sign-off sentence in all my letters to Senators and Representatives is that no bill is better than a bad bill, because it leaves the old bill in place. Do you agree with that position?
Bob in HI
Folks please remember to Digg It and help get the word out. This, like many of the fine posts here at the Lake, is too important to keep to ourselves.
Michelle Richardson, ACLU @ 96
Okay will we be action alerted on the house. Those are so helpful.
Thanx Caroline, Michelle and everyone. I think a primer and a pow wow is invaluable to morale, particularly for me.
Margot @ 97
wow
well done, reading your comment gave me those shivers you get when you know you’ve read somthing simply profound
Christy Hardin Smith @ 98
many thanks to all the folks from the aclu! i hope you will consider coming back as events progress.
It is also important to remember how all the different aspects of the Republicans’ gutting of FISA work together. The Republicans want to give the Executive all the levers to engage in unrestricted surveillance while giving it a patina of judicial review.
If the government can define who is a target and how minimization works, if it can surveil with basket warrants, and if it can give immunity to those who abet it, then it can playing with the definitions surveil anyone anytime and hide forever both the surveillance and the participation of entities like telecoms in it. And the 4th Amendment becomes a dead letter, just another casualty in the war on terror.
Why do Jay Rockefeller and Harry Reid hate the 4th Amendment?
And muchos gracis Jeani as well.
dakine01 @ 104
We just started a Digg account recently. Come check us out.
re the comments on Turley’s comments – that once the criminality of Bushco becomes inescapably clear through the Telco suits, the Congress would find it impossible to resist the momentum toward impeachment:
Didn’t the Judge from Michigan, who issued an injunction against the so-called TSP (later reversed by the Sixth Circuit) also make a factual finding in her opinion that, based upon the President’s own statements defending the program, it was clear that criminal conduct had taken place. IIRC, that issue was not addressed by the 6th Cir, so it would stand.
Hey Rachel — thanks so much for your help in coordinating thsi chat for us today. Much appreciated!
Caroline, thanks so much for being here!.
I have two questions: The Wired piece that Christy cited states
it is my understanding that the targets don’t have to be “bad guys” — merely people that the intelligence community believes can be a source of information that relates to US National Security interests. Is this correct?
Also, in Hoekstra’s piece, he wrote:
it is my understanding that the reason “incidental collection in criminal cases” does not require a warrant is because probable cause justifying electronic surveillance must be established before a criminal warrant targetting an individual is issued — and once it is issued, there is no need to get warrants for other individuals that the target talks to (unless those other individuals become targets themselves).
But there is no standard at all that must be met for surveillance of foreign to foreign communication — and absent warrants, the intelleigence community would be free to spy on collect information on American citizens with impunity by claiming that the “target” was foreign.
Is this correct, or am I missing something?
112 – Judge Taylor made it clear that the basis for her ruling was the 4th Amendment (a path that lots of law profs didn’t like at the time, but one I thought was a fantastic strategy based on the fact that the feeble Congress might, if the ruling were based on FISA, simply try to revise FISA).
Unfortunately, Congress has ignored the fact that the only court to review “teh program” on the MERITS has said it clearly violated the CONSTITUTION and has instead gone off pretending that they just need to rewrite the law to accomodate the activity that a court said violates the Constitution.
I’m probably way out in left field on this because this issue is very complex and encompassing but my questions come primarily from Frontline: Spying on the Homefront, what is the status of the lawsuit against AT&T and wasn’t the data mining in Las Vegas in 2003(?) patently illegal? Shouldn’t we also be addressing how the government is utilizing “private”/corporate data bases to sift information?
I know I need to read the links in the post and I’ll be getting to that shortly. Thanks.
Just wanted to add my thanks to the ACLU people.
Further on Turley’s remarks – I agree that by the time things are resolved on the program Bush will be out of office, so impeachment will be off the table
IMO, the reasons Dems won’t dig too far is that they do not want it to become clear to what extent Democratic leadership enabled the programs. They are planning on being here after 2008 and a thorough investigation won’t impact on GWB being President 4 more years – but it may impact on the members of Congress who plan on staying around. They won’t investigate, IMO, bc they are saving themselves. Not the Exec.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 101
The same goes for constituents of Lieberman, who is about as immovable as granite these days.
mui @ 119
my image of Lieberman is one of dried effluent clinging to that granite
Since when is holding journalists accountable to the truth a far left enterprise? I’m getting sick of this paintbrush. Far left is Maoist or something.
Hoekstra can kiss my ass.
Just a quick reminder for folks: I’m going to be taking a few days off from the blog for some holiday R&R (those cookies don’t bake themselves, you know!). I’ll be off from tomorrow for a couple of weeks. Everyone have a good few days and I’ll probably drop in to say howdy at some point, but The Peanut needs some unfettered momma time and so she’s going to get it. :)
Didn’t want folks to wonder if I wasn’t around — I’ll be here, just not online so much for a few days. But you’ll be very well taken care of…with perhaps a surprise or two along the way.
Christy:
Have fun and enjoy yourself and The Peanut and Mr. ReddHedd!
(I have been enjoying Blue Texan’s posts immensely.)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 122 –
thanks for the heads up… will there be a fdl point person on fisa while you are gone? looks like the next two weeks may see lots of developments.
p.s. i hope you and the peanut have a great two weeks making cookies and doing holiday stuff together.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 75
No, they see this as clever tactics. Same with the impeachment question above attributed to Turley. Right now, they can run against Bush, the worst president ever.
If, instead, they have to defend details of how and why they intend to deal with the “war on terror” or “national security” then they feel like there will be distraction from the central message of throw the republican bums out.
The risk they are running is that the “republican” modifier may fall out of that sentence.
Mary @ 118
True, but as far as I’m concerned that doesn’t rule out other penalties. If Bush violated federal laws, then he should be tried afterward, provided there’s enough evidence. The crimes are serious, and I don’t want them repeated by someone else.
In some cases, I’m sure that’s true. Not that we wouldn’t be well rid of those folks, too. Call me a “civil liberties extremist”, but I’m getting pretty short-tempered about how little Congress respects the Constitution it swore to defend.
CHS
LOL!
We’ll miss you. Have a great time.
perris @ 107
I had a similar thought as well: so now the Constitution is far left? For subversive though, my favorite is the Declaration of Independence. There’s a document to make authoritarians cower… like sunlight to vampires.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 122
Have a good vacation.
This completely OT
Last night in one of the posts which I can’t find, I really am at a loss as to where I saw it-Senor moment-I am sure it was FDL, there was a link to a post about a letter to Proctor and Gamble about sanitary napkins.
I want to thank you for the great belly laugh I got. I have never been angrier in my life and that post was like fresh air.
Excuse my OT does anyone have the link?
Burnie
Momentarily de-lurking to send some love to all of you at the ACLU, and to tell you, Christy, to enjoy your holiday, and the sooner we see you again, the happier we’ll be.
(ducking back into the shadows).
Christy Hardin Smith @ 122
I’m starting to get that hankering for homemade lebkuchen, kiffeln, and toll house, too.
Maybe you want to put up a recipe exchange thread sometime?
Enjoy the baking!
new thread
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ke-action/
“If someone in the U.S. is talking to al-Qaeda, I believe most Americans would”
Every defense of these criminal acts contains a statement like that above and each time I hear it I want to say: this implies you already know who belongs to al-Qaeda and where there phones are. If you know that why haven’t you captured them instead of listening in on their phone conversations?
Fact is, of course, they don’t know who is al-Qaeda and where their phones are. They just want to fish about in everyone’s phone calls and maybe get lucky, perhaps, even capture some dirt on a political opponent or even some salable trade secrets, or… Well, you get my point :-)
At the least I hope everyone who interviews these slugs will at least throw that statement back in their faces.
Glenzilla has now posted a response to Hoekstra’s nonsense: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
scribe @ 132
Christy did one last weekend.
scribe @ 132
Cooooooooooooooooookies :-)
egregious @ 136
Missed it – I was both off the net Tues-Sun and still lolling around in a haze of tryptophan, football, snowflurries and playing with the dog.
Somebody paid for a poll asking about, among other things, telcom immunity
I got contacted today. The poll included a quiz to see how much I actually knew about current events.
Somebody is trying to figure out the threshold of informed awareness on this issue
annagranfors @ 62
This really gets my goat as well. The BusChen/Addington axis of you know what, is the progenitor of a scorched earth campaign designed to remove all counterforce to its evil intent.
Even if democracy prevails and the wrongs of this administration are somehow reversed, the resulting strictures will play towards fouling the new administration’s ability to hold power.
So with the old constraints against unfettered power over the population dismantled, the current regime has the wherewithal to overturn any action against itself as well as ensuring that should an overwhelming backlash succeed in dismantling their impositions, that the successors are hamstrung in every way conceivable. Either way, the people are held hostage to those who seek to impose their will on the government through sheer arrogance, stubbornness and brutality.
Oh, and Klein is a pissant for his shameless shilling of the reich-wingers’ world view over his supposed democratic brethren.
Mary @ 118
As usual, Mary is spot on…
looseheadprop @ 139
did you ask who was conducting the poll and who had commissioned it? i’ve found that i can always get an answer to the first question and frequently the second as well.
looseheadprop @ 139
Did you do well on the quiz?
BobbyG @ 8
And isn’t that because some Dems fear that if no retro-immunity is given the Telecoms (and others) that it will be found that certain WH officials, even POTUS, have committed crimes that would, on principle, scream for impeachment? And don’t many of us know that there is seldom any principle shown inside the Beltway, it’s about relationship and expediency?
Thus, the Dems would look bad for *not* acting on these potential crimes on principle, and this would push back the independent vote in the ‘08 elections, and no doubt reduce any gains the Dems might make in ‘08.
You mean Peter Hoekstra doesn’t like Democratic positions? Wow, there’s a story. Better grant him anonymity and rush his gripings into print in one of America’s two biggest weekly newsmagazines!
egregious @ 127
Long ago, Al Capp invented the “Shmoo“. The marvelous Wikipedia prevents me from having to invoke “IIRC” to report that Shmoon (the plural of Shmoo)
No mention here is made of cookies. However, I’m sure they would be happy to oblige, if properly informed of the need.
Bob in HI
Hoekstra’s labeling of main-stream positions as “far-left” reminds me of those old New Yorker illustrations of the view of the world from New York: New York, then…nothing. Then Los Angeles.
To Hoekstra and his ilk see themselves as “sensible and centrist,” and everybody else as far left.
What a douchebag. (Can I say that here?)
Remember how much authority we DO grant to the US government to force telcos and ISP’s to cough up data to the government next time we excoriate Google for giving data to the Chinese government. (I’m not a fan of any of them, but sauce for the goose….)
The reality is that the number of server farms and outsourced service providers in China – ie, the sheer volume of data physically and virtually within the control of the Chinese government – is staggering, and growing. One says “No” to the Chinese with considerably greater reluctance than a junior CIA staffer says it to Dick Cheney.
When we’re talking “information security”, we can’t limit our discussion to restricting what we knowingly give to Uncle Sam.
Too bad this place is run by some of those “far-left” critics I sometimes read about. Therefore their arguments can’t possibly have merit. It’s all just sour grapes because they have to rely on ad revenue directly, rather than having HR cut them a check every 2 weeks, creating the illusion that ad revenue and salary outlays are unrelated.
If there is something I’ve learned from this website and a few others, Republicans often accuse the other side of the very thing they’re guilty of and then muddy the waters with a he-said she-said when it blows up. Do you think they keep saying “liberal media” when how can that be true when the “liberal media” is quoting a far-right GOP hack blindly and going to print with it. How liberal is that? I teach American Newspapers at a university here in Germany and I have used this website and Glenn Greenwald along with the original articles to give perspective. I used Glenn’s most recent update on the debacle and the orginal article. Good stuff!
So Klein is a liberal commentator??? Someone please ask the question: Why would you ask a REPUBLICAN about a piece of DEMOCRATIC legislation in the first place? And then pass it along as truth?
“it was Hoekstra — one of Washington’s most partisan GOP operatives — who lied to Klein by claiming that the House Democrats’ bill requires warrants for every foreign terrorist’s call and that the bill thus gives the same rights to foreign Terrorists as American citizens.”
Englischlehrer @ 149
Marcy “emptywheel” Wheeler at http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/ is also excellent.
WE decided to push back our action alert until Monday morning. Will send as soon as available. Thx!
I was watching frontline and the national security letters from the fbi where no judge signs off and all of the people who went to vegas in a week had their privacy compromised for nothing it turned ou, there was no judicail check or balance. dubious probable cause eyc the 4th amendment is gone caput
I guess that when CHS did research papers in College, when she footnoted and item she just listed the book and said look it up yourself.
Please, if she is going to asert that something is true and wants to make it look like she is docunenting the “fact”, she needs to narrow what she documents to that which is pertinate to her assertion. A quote with a link would be most appropriate.
Otherwise she, Time, and Joe Klein are all cut of the same cloth.
Prerry sad.
Example, please?
Roy at 154 — You mean, such as my direct link to the FISA law itself, my direct link to Rep. Rush Holt’s dissection of the RESTORE Act, which includes a direct link to the Act itself, and my direct link to the 4th Amendment with footnoted and annotated information pertaining thereto on the same page?
Jeebus, try clicking through the actual links before trying the whine and dodge idiocy, would you?
Oh, and also my direct link to the PDF of the judge’s most recent memorandum on the fast tracking of the lobbying efforts of the telecom companies for retroactive immunity, among other issues discussed in the legal order.
I could keep going Roy. There are a lot of things linked up here — some of which go directly to more posts with even more original information linked up in them as well. I know this, because I wrote a lot of them, including but not limited to this post (also linked above,btw) which outlines the initial FISA law and constitutional framework issues.
jayackroyd @ 66
Their mistake, IMO, is that their first priority is to govern and the politics is a distant second.
If you can make your way of governing work for you politically, then fine. I think we, here at the lake, see that as quite normal. But, to only see the politics is being too greedy by half.
DeAnna @ 74
I’m certain it has been done in the past. There are intelligence operations where the CIA can’t work domestically and the FBI wasn’t (until late in the Clinton admin) able either. So, using a foreign agency, such as Mossad, to snoop and report to us, would probably have been done. Whether that was what happened in the case of agents tracking the 9/11 suspects isn’t clear. Able Danger might’ve been one breach of the law where our intell. people were tracking the 9/11 suspects in America and that would’ve been useful if done properly, but still probably illegal. We still probably have newbie intell people at the FBI — see Sibel Edmonds stories for more detail.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 157
Well, of course I did check the links. In a previous Klein article you said that Bush administration sources were Klein’s sources and then as documentation linked to Glenn Greenwalds Blog. The whole blog.
Look, I can do all the reading on my own. The point is if I do that why do I or anyone else really need to read you.
It is simple, you seem to be educated and I would presume that you understand that when you digest other material you need to give specific documentation. I personally could give hoot. I read enough to know if something smells a little off or not.
My point was that the reason that people believe one line trash like Saddam being involved in 911 is that we Liberals – or progressive if you are to weak-kneed to own up to being Liberal – are so bad at giving factual information. I am not impressed by a show of intelligence – I am impressed with intelligence. If you want people to get it you have to keep it precise and easy to understand.
Of course, that point was made in a previous post that no one read on this blog. You are all too busy letting everyone know that everyone knows everyone, trying to be the first comment, and general name calling and opinion spouting.
The only reason that I am here is that I watched you and others on C-SPAN at the “I am just so popular and my ego is enormous” Yearly Convention in New York. I was favorably impressed and decided to look in.
I must say among the liberal/progressive bloggers there are only a few that are anymore less full of themselves than the MSM.
Just remember you are dealing with the masses. KISS.
Heck is you can’t even win over someone that basically agrees with you what chance do you have with others.
Twice now a person on this site has assumed because I was critical that I did not read or look at the thing I was criticizing. I guess that is “since you don’t agree with me you must not have read what I wrote.”
And yes, it is the direct link to the “whole thing” of anything that is the problem.. That is not documentation, that is a reading assignment. The people that you need to rally to call their congressmen and understand the issues, do not have the time to wade through all that. They work and raise families and if they even bother to read what they think are egg-head blogs, they just need a link to the part that substantiates what you say.
The Republicans give them 30 second sound bites, you give them Dostoevsky. Who do you think they are going to listen to?
Thanks for reading my comments though, I thought no one was listening.
As an unfortunate constituent of Hoekstra’s, I will add a few things:
- I wrote the congressman on this issue a few weeks ago, and the response I received did contain the claim that passage of FISA reform would give foreigners the same rights as Americans
- Hoekstra is not a lawyer and has no legal background, he’s a former corporate executive
- when the secret FISA surveillance first was revealed, Hoekstra called for the imprisonment of the reporters who broke the story – in fact predicted their imprisonment within a year, but then the 2006 elections happened and clipped his wings a bit
- Hoekstra is reportedly posturing for a run as governor of Michigan in 2010; he loathes being in the minority in the House, and he is extremely ambitious, with an arrogance and temper that would get him a FOX News gig if everything else does not pan out for him
Anna Parenna @ 156
Read 161.
I’d like to hear an answer to P. Lukasiak’s questions. I’ve read everything on this thread, and I still am not really sure how this boils out.
Correction. Reading the wired blog lets me understand – the bottom line of the basket warrants is that the NSA will be collecting the vast majority of everything Americans say to non-Americans. And permanently storing it.
Right?
I would like either an ACLU person or one of the bloggers to answer this question, please. And if the answer is yes – THIS IS HOW IT NEEDS TO BE PHRASED IN ADVOCACY! All of the above debate was semi-incomprehensible. Basket warrants = NSA collects most/all of American communications w/non Americans. One sentence. This entire discussion is in a Republican frame of “terrorist rights”. There’s a Republican attack – which gets more ridiculous the longer you look at it – which has **nothing** to do with the real problems here.