You can always tell when Christmas is coming up when you’ve got wingnut rellies with e-mail accounts. About a month to six weeks beforehand, charming little propaganda missives, either carefully crafted in various wingnut-welfare-supported sheltered workshops or homebrewed elaborations on something Bill O’Reilly or NewsMax spouted three years ago, start coming into your in box.
You know the kind. They’re stuff like this little e-mail which is presented to you as I received it, designed to prey on people who never read a book unless it was for school (and sometimes not even then) and whose curiosity about the world and the people in it is limited in the extreme:
*Twas the month before Christmas*
*When all through our land,*
*Not a Christian was praying*
*Nor taking a stand.*
*The “politically correct police” had taken away,*
*The reason for Christmas – no one could say.*
*The children were told by their schools not to sing,*
*About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.*
*It might hurt people’s feelings, the teachers would say*
*December 25th is just a “Holiday“.*
*Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit*
*Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!*
*CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod*
*Something was changing, something quite odd! *
*Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa*
*In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.*
*As Targets were hanging their trees upside down*
*At Lowe’s the word Christmas – was no where to be found.*
*At K-Mart and Staples and Penny’s and Sears*
*You won’t hear the word Christmas; it won’t touch your ears.*
*Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty*
*Are words that were used to intimidate me.*
*Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen*
*On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton!*
*At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter*
*To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.*
*And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith*
* Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace*
*The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded*
*The reason for the season, stopped before it started.*
*So as you celebrate “Winter Break” under your “Dream Tree”*
*Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.*
*Choose your words carefully, choose what you say*
*Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS, not Happy Holiday!*
A few things come to mind on reading this:
1) What is it with the addiction of right-wingers to Comic Sans MS? This is a font that when misused, as it is about, oh, 98% of the time, just about screams the following message to the world: “The author is an idiot. On no account should you, the reader, ever take this person seriously.”
2) This is, of course, the most insidious form of the right-wing smear machine — the e-mail smear. As this article from The Nation explains, e-mail smears are so nasty because it’s often time-consuming and difficult to trace them back to their originators. The utter lack of accountability makes them the perfect right-wing smear vehicle; libels that right-wing commentators can only slyly hint at on camera for fear of being made to own their words are stated in their full slanderous form in the e-mails that are sent out to dozens of recipients at a throw, who then in turn send them out to dozens more recipients, and so on, and so on, and so on (emphases mine):
But in some senses, the kind of under-the-radar attack embodied in the Gold Star e-mail–which never made the jump to Fox or Drudge–is even harder to deal with. “It’s a Pandora’s box,” says Jim Kennedy, who served as Clinton’s communications director during her first Senate term. “Once [the charges] are out in the ether, they are very hard to combat. It’s very unlike a traditional media, newspaper or TV show, or even a blog, which at least has a fixed point of reference. You know they’re traveling far and wide, but there’s no way to rebut them with all the people that have seen them.”
Such is the power of the right-wing smear forward, a vehicle for the dissemination of character assassination that has escaped the scrutiny directed at the Limbaughs and Coulters and O’Reillys but one that is as potent as it is invisible. In 2004 putative firsthand accounts of Kerry’s performance in Vietnam traveled through e-mail in right-wing circles, presaging the Swift Boat attacks. Last winter a forward began circulating accusing Barack Obama of being a secret Muslim schooled in a radical madrassa (about which more later). While the story was later fed through familiar right-wing megaphones, even making it onto Fox, it has continued to circulate via e-mail long after being definitively debunked by CNN. In other words, the few weeks the smear spent in the glare of the mainstream media was just a tiny portion of a long life cycle, most of which has been spent darting from inbox to inbox.
3) It’s designed to prey on the ignorant and/or bigoted. Though the people who created this e-mail probably knew better, they also knew that their targeted audience has no idea that Christmas has, at bottom, nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Here’s the simple truth: Nobody really knows when Christ was born. December 25th was picked by early church leaders to capitalize on the popularity of various Pagan holidays celebrated on or near that date, which is close to that of the winter solstice.
In fact, almost all of the trappings of what we call Christmas — the tree and decorations, the mistletoe, Santa (originally the Horned God or the Lord of Misrule or any number of male Pagan fertility gods), the holly and the ivy — are all lifted from Pagan Yule traditions. Yes, folks, that little tree that graces this post is Pagan through and through! Just about the one thing that isn’t lifted straight from pre-Christian traditions is Santa’s red suit — and that comes to us courtesy not of the church, but from the Coca-Cola corporation, which made sure in the 1930s that his raiment was dyed not just any old shade of red, but Coca-Cola red.
The Puritans, the ultimate Christian Fundamentalists, certainly knew all about this. (Well, they didn’t know about the Coca-Cola angle, as it hadn’t happened yet, but it wouldn’t have surprised them one bit.) That’s why they outlawed keeping Christmas wherever they controlled the local governments, either in England or America. It had almost died out in England until a concerted effort was made in the early 19th century to ressurect it, once the power of the Puritans had long since receded and the ruling Anglicans had got over their fears that bringing back Christmas would lead to the Catholics getting out from being trod underfoot (Catholics in England weren’t quite as lacking in civil rights as were Jews or women, but they weren’t far from it). The repression was even more pronounced in America, particularly in Puritan-founded New England; it wasn’t until 1870 that it was made a public holiday in the US.
So, then, what is the meaning of Christmas? Not really sure what it is now, other than as the chief means by which US retailers stay afloat. Originally, it wasn’t about Christ at all. And nowadays, among the wingnuts, it’s not really about Christ at all either, except when He can be used as a means to score points off of Democrats, the college-educated, or anyone else they don’t like.
I guess the moral here is this: Christmas is what you make of it. Let’s see if we can make it into something good. Oh, and if you ever have the chance to debunk a right-wing e-mail smear being circulated all over the place, grab that chance with both hands.



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zed.
PW!
PW!!!!!!!
RonD @ 1
:P
PW
Steve-AR @ 3
Ya need to economize…
Suzanne @ 5
Bonne Soir, Ma Cheri…
I get those emails forwarded to me by the R side of the family. I consider them all to be propaganda.
email spam is perfect for Repubs: it requires no intelligence, it’s easy, no research is needed, and it’s just like having the runs: you just sit there and it happens.
hi PW.
Happy Chanukah.
Hey, where’s my facebook thingie?
PW!!!
Looks like an awesome post.
soon as I rescue my supper and finish the last debate thread I’ll read it and be back.
Oh, wait, I’ll Digg it first…
FunnyDiva
Evening all. Glad to see you in the Lake tonight PW. Fortunately, I do not have any wingnut relatives who speak to me, so I don’t get that crap.
dammit!
OT but I noticed this at Froomkin just now:
I think the number of journalists who have been easy on the Bush Administration is a lot higher than this, probably in the 90% range, but still this gives you an idea of how many reporters have their head so far up their ass they will never see daylight again.
SteveAudio @ 11
log back in… some cookie cleaners will cause folks to have to relog
Don’t say “Happy Holidays”…say “Happy Chanukah!”
Yep, I get these craptastic missives all the time from the wing-nut relatives. Mostly I just dump them unread, but every now and then my evil twin takes over and I respond with factual rebuttal, links and references. Somehow it’s just not as satisfying debunking the fantasies via e-mail as it is face-to-face. Watching the steam come out their ears as I poke holes in each stupid theory is vastly entertaining. The tricky part is retreating before there’s a full-on meltdown, those can get a bit messy.
funny
I don’t wish anyone else happy birthday on my birthday I wish it on their birthday
why on earth would I wish someone merry christmas when I don’t even know if that’s the holiday they celebrate?
happy holiday does the trick perfectly
Suzanne @ 8
You should see what gets sent to pastors. If it mentions Jesus, someone will think “Oh, I should send this to the pastor . . .” Actually, no, you shouldn’t have.
And then there’s the Christmas junk mail, specially crafted for clergy . . . and it starts coming in early September. Puts Macys and Target to shame.
Blergh.
I’m pretty much an atheist (recovering Episcopalian, sorta small-b buddhist in inclination, so not a “hard atheist”), but I loves my Amy Grant Christmas CDs, and I recently funded and I manage the re-issue of this magnificent CD.
More important shit to fight about.
Suzanne @ 8
I get them forwarded from my brother and a couple of cousins.
The delete key gets a workout on those days.
Oh, and PW? IIRC, most all of the rituals used in the Christian holidays (and not just Christmas) originate with pagans of some sort. I believe the early church was quite adept at co-opting whatever components of the local religion that they could in order to make the Church more palatable.
Peterr @ 20
Ever used any of it as sermon material? Enquiring minds want to know.
What was it? The “one nation under God” came in in the 1950s. The “in God we trust” I believe dates back to the Civil War. There are all of these bits and pieces of our national life that people think have been around forever, except they haven’t.
test 1,2, 3…
that’s it, i quit! ;>)
Thank heaven for Snopes.
What is it with the addiction of right-wingers to Comic Sans MS
That’s easy. It’s makes the hatred look cute and harmless.
The real question is, “What font would Jesus use?”
Answer below
still no f steve, log in, go to your profile page and make sure your f/b url is posted in the little box thingie
Answer: Jesus would use a baptismal font.
EvilDrPuma @ 17
Or better still, Happy Saturnalia. Nothing like that real old time religion.
Chanukah will be over on the 12th. Don’t wish me anything after that.
Suzanne @ 5
Howdy!
DrDick @ 31
Merry Feast of the Unconquerable Sun! (Any Mithraists out there tonight?)
Nobody sends me those emails anymore – I spent a lot of time answering them back with facts and questioning motives. I kind of miss it actually..
TexBetsy @ 32
Aw, we’ll still wish you well.
TexBetsy @ 32
You spinnin’ the dreidel, Betsy?
Indeed.
Wha we are in fact celebrating is Winter Solistic — a Pagan Holiday created to deal with Seasona Affect Disorder.
That itinerant rabbi was born sometime around late July / early August. But the church in its infinite desire to hook up with a sure thing co-opted a pagan holiday by rewriting the claendar.
Sarcely the first of its lies and FAR from the last.
Phoenix Woman @ 33
Always enjoy modding your threads – a special treat having ya here at late nite :)
Phoenix Woman @ 37
Kinky.
EvilDrPuma @ 36
Probably be wishing me a speedy recovery. Diskogram is Monday and I see the surgeon tuesday to schedule the surgery. Oh, and my folks arrive a week from today.
TexBetsy @ 32
Freedom from pain. I always wish you that, Betsy.
AldeaMB @ 35
Heh!
I find Truth or Fiction to be a good place for debunking email hoaxes. If I decide to reply to a spam email attack from the rightwing smear machine, I’ll put a link to their debunking and include it with a heartfelt “I’m sure you wouldn’t have knowingly sent me something that is false, and I wouldn’t want you to send it to someone else under those circumstances either. Check here before you send another like this.”
Sort of a “Preview is your friend” kind of email, more in sorrow than in anger.
If I keep getting them from the same person, that’s when the anger starts to surface.
this should work
TexBetsy @ 41
Well, Happy Procedure Day.
EvilDrPuma @ 34
Merry Nara of the Flying Spaghetti Monster with Gouda will to men and pizza on earth.
EvilDrPuma @ 40
I was gonna ask, but now I don’t want to know…
BobbyG @ 21
I hope you have this in your collection:
The Animals’ Christmas
It’s been a favorite of mine for years and years, and I’ve never given it or played it for anyone who didn’t love it. (Oh, did I mention it’s Jimmy Webb too?)
Phoenix Woman @ 37
yep. starting a week from tonight.
TexBetsy @ 41
You are going to be one busy girl. Hopefully also a shortly pain free one.
Happy Ayyam-i-ha, Ya’ll! However it’s not til late Feb… *g*
religion:
charley manson in the sky.
Hugh @ 15
You can tell the ones like Lara Logan, who want desperately to tell the whole truth but are censored by the Bush-loving network bosses, from the jaded hacks who just spew whatever line BushCo gives them because it’s either that or the dole queue.
You know, I look at that and I have to laugh…has it ever occurred to them that they’re devaluing exactly what they propose to stand for? It’s such an obvious right-wing smear that I’m surprised people can’t see through it.
Myself, I do believe Christmas should be about Jesus’ birth. I watch a Charlie Brown Christmas and get moved by Linus’s speech and everything.
On the other hand, there are a ton of other holidays out there. Hannukah (sp?), Kwanzaa, and let’s not forget New Year’s! I think Happy Holidays is a perfectly valid thing to say. And I also think a “dream tree” may be one of the dumbest possible names for a Christmas tree, but that’s just me.
So I’ll leave this off with an example of what I think may actually be a good way to promote Christianity, hopefully to counteract the poison in that email above.
Three principles: Respect yourself, respect other people, and try to leave the world in a better place than when you found it.
Happy Holidays! :D
EvilDrPuma @ 23
Actually, I have. Not often, because I don’t want someone to get embarrassed at sending it to me. But when I know it was sent as a joke (say, if PW had forwarded the email above to me), it’s fair game.
TexBetsy @ 41
positive outcome thoughts headed your way! Hope folks coming is a positive and even if positive, not too stress inducing.
Phoenix Woman @ 54
Unfortunately the hacks seem to be in the acendency and outnumber the good ones (and Logan is one of the best) by at least 10:1.
Unfortunately the hacks seem to be in the acendency and outnumber the good ones (and Logan is one of the best) by at least 10:1.
hackcendency
I had to look this one up for Kwanzaa: Habari Gani?
Oh do I hope we get to the point where none of you has to wish me “pain free”.
Peterr @ 45
thanks for link & good advice
I agree with the basic point but, I don’t agree that “Christmas is what you make it.” I mean, so is tomorrow. Look, Christmas is the day that celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ. Don’t believe in Christ and Christian doctrine? Fine. There’s plenty (too much) secular stuff for you to enjoy if your so inclined. The wing nuts have just taken their point too far. But they do have a point. Problem is, instead of just making that point, they’ve lied and concocted a ‘war on Christmas.” For example, i worked in Kohl’s a few years ago at Christmas and I heard that numbskull with the red glasses – Gibson is it -and O’Reiley repeating the line that kohl’s employees had been forbidden to say Merry Christmas to an employee. And that was just bullshit. They called a meeting to tell us that we could, in fact, say “Merry Christmas” to people. But, I mean I have no use for anyone whose sensitivities are offended by anything I do to celebrate Christmas. That’s really tough shit. It didn’t use to be this way. And Kwanzaa is just bullshit but if people wanna celebrate it, that’s cool. I’m not gonna do anything to hinder them and it doesn’t offend me. Just don’t equate it with Christmas. That’s a big deal. Obviously, we know very little about the historical Jesus. I don’t think that matters at all. Many of us also have a tradition of going to mass or services or whatever. Even if it’s a hypocritical only day of the year.
Yeah CHRISTMAS is a pagan holiday that the english at least tried to outlaw many years ago
I find that a bit refreshing that despite the centuries people still cling to the old religions that christiantity tried to triangulate into their speil
make ya think that theres somethin real and important behind all the bullshit
merry christmas y all>
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 57
They’re only staying four days, and they’re here more for the kids than for me. :)
yeah! steve audio is f’d!
TexBetsy @ 61
So do we…well, except as a very general wish, of course.
I’m happy to celebrate Jesus, Buddha’s, or Moses’ birthday. Or the Winter god, or the solstice. Also it gives meaning to those mundane tasks like getting new socks. How much nicer for them to come in colorful wrapping opened with fanfare and exclamations — and to be shopped for by someone else! The new year has always been about reaffirming old connections. It’s a way of making the mundane special.
It was the German Pietists who made Christmas an emotional, at-home holiday. Before that it had been rather rowdy outdoor affair. The transcendentalists took up the custom from the Germs.
In Louisa May Alcott’s Little Women, the rather bohemian March family celebrates at home, Pietist fashion, with home-made gifts and carol singing, while wealthy Episcopalian neighbor Laurie and his grandfather go off to church in a horse-drawn carriage. As has been pointed out in Massachusetts it was not an official holiday until 1870. The film of Little Women, starring Winona Ryder and Gabriel Byrne, was very, very nice. Better than the book in some ways.
HA! I’ve been over reading lgf…. (yes, yes, your concern is noted!)… things I’ve learned so far? let’s see… Ron Paul is a “ferry”…. yup, that’s just how it is spelled… and, oh – John McCain is a pussy and Jack Bauer is gonna “kick his ass”.
I have debunked several of these with links to well respected sources. Then I add that I see they have forwarded this wrong info to everyone they know, and being a good christian they would surely want to correct the info. Or it might look like they were LYING. In other words, shame them.
I never heard the term “dream tree” used until reading the wingnut propaganda posted above.
Isn’t Festivus coming up soon?
And that’s it for me. Goodnight, all. Best of all possible tomorrows to you all.
And a pleasant ChrismaKwanzakuh to all.
Peterr @ 45
Snopes and About.com also help get the correct info out. I was getting all sorts of stuff from my brother and every time he sent one, I would go to About and check and 98% of the time it was a hoax or scam. He still slips up every now and again but when he does send stuff to me now, he has usually checked it first.
Phoenix Woman, I’ve only read half of the post, butPeterr @ 20
Share a really top of the line advert you get?
Oh yeah People used to say “Happy Holidays” when I was a kid and before the war on Xmas. it’s perfectly appropriate because it’s a holiday season. But i wish people Merry Xmas, too. If they don’t want to have one, that’s their choice.
Night RonD.
These are the standards I strive to achieve…
* Unity of God
* Unity of religion
* Unity of humankind
* Gender equality
* Elimination of all forms of prejudice
* World peace
* Harmony of religion and science
* Independent investigation of truth
* Universal compulsory education
* Universal auxiliary language
* Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics
* Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty
However, I do tend to sin on the non-partisan politicking part… Oops… *g*
Peterr @ 56
Looks like Peterr’s next sermon just wrote itself! (Glad I could be of help, Rev.)
Kulkulkan bless us, everyone.
-GSD
I will admit to listening to three “holiday” CDs:
Jimmy Buffett’s Christmas Island,
Leon Redbone’s Chritmas Island, and
Aaron Neville’s Chritmas music (forget the title and too lazy to look for the disc right now)
OT but funny. You all know that Sen. Lott wants to just do something different. He’ll now have time to go to brother-in-law’s trial:
LINK
But to say “Christmas is a pagan holiday” is just wrong. It’s a Christian holiday, obviously, as it commemorates the birth of Jesus Christ. The fact that this celebration originally coincided with pagan celebrations is, in my view, neither here nor there.
It’s not Christmas without listening to Alvin.
Suzanne @ 39
PW’s always a wonderful treat. ALWAYS!
Merry HalloThanksMas.
:)
OldCoastie @ 69
Suzanne keeps plenty of industrial grade brain bleach in 55 gallon drums always handy if needed. Sounds like this is definitely an occasion for a big dose. That site makes me feel like I need to take a shower.
Beerfart Liberal @ 75
Happy Holidays is a carol to sing too! You hear so many covers of it everywhere. So it always puzzles me at the weirdness of the freakout of the phrasing. Then you go to England and hear ‘Happy Christmas’ instead of ‘Merry Christmas.’ I just shrug, grin and wish it back.
Then joke about the 30 bazillion variations on 50 carols i hear at work.
AZ Matt @ 81
Dayam, there goes my Flynt theories…
GSD @ 79
Blasphemer!!!!! Quetzalcoatl is the One True Feathered Serpent Creator God!
madmommy @ 86
Keep the drums full and stationed by each entrance and exit to the Lake. Also conveniently located near all restrooms and beverage/food stations.
Beerfart Liberal @ 82
Well, actually it isn’t the birthday of Yeshua al Nazarat, which is sometime in the spring or summer. The date was set by the early church to correspond to the Saturnalia, the big pagan Roman midwinter festival. Most of the ways we celebrate it are also derived from pagan practices (evergreens, holly, gift exchanges, etc.).
EvilDrPuma @ 89
Pach might wanna weigh in… ;-)
Suzanne @ 83
One of my favs but now I will be hearing it in my head for weeks. Thanks. :)
Beerfart Liberal @ 82
The celebration is paganism co-opted to serve Christianity. So is Easter. Look it up. (And this is from a cradle Episcopalian Lay Eucharistic Minister.)
Where’s Trex?
Ooops. The gay Brigadier General is on Hillary’s steering committee.
-GSD
Suzanne @ 83
Bradley Schlozman does Christmas?
Ouch!
Beerfart Liberal @ 95
Here…
http://trexstasy.blogspot.com/
madmommy @ 86
well, apparently Mitt’s gay and Rudy’s gay… everybody but Hunter and Tancredo are gay… that’s a very interesting perspective, doncha know… I think I’m about done reading, now that I know everyone is gay… kinda takes the surprise outta it…
edit: also, Edwards is gay, Hillary’s a dyke, CNN is a bunch of commies and the questioners were all a bunch of Dem plants and I almost forgot, Cooper is gay… any questions?
Hysteria @ 55
Excellent! Happy Holidays right back at cha!
Beerfart Liberal @ 95
Here: http://trexstasy.blogspot.com/
newtonusr @ 97
(laughing) only this crowd would know what that was about and laugh, newton.
Beerfart Liberal @ 95
He built a brand new tree house:
TRex Tree House
It’s fun, but watch out for that first step on the ladder — it’s getting splintery from all the foot traffic.
CT, you are faster than me.
DrDick @ 91
I really could give a flip.
Suzanne @ 102
Schloz certainly is nasally enough… ;-)
Marion in Savannah @ 103
There’s a wheelchair lift now as well.
Marion in Savannah @ 94
I don’t need to look it up. That doesn’t make Christmas “a pagan holiday.” Easter, obviously, isn’t celebrated on the date of the Ressurection ’cause it’s different every year. But it’s probably close. There really was no need to “co-opt paganism” for Esater.
TexBetsy @ 41
are they coming to help you?
In the good old days christianity was pretty adept and lightfooted at stealing pagan symbols and ceremonies and making them their own
This was evident well into the invasion of europeans into the new world where pagan gods became saints and were given some standing in the catholic church.
Christmas was sucked in hook line and sinker.
AZ Matt @ 81
More fun! but at our own expense. Hope the dems plan to drive this kind of crap home after the primaries.
Some other winter festivals from wiki:
Germanic:
Modranect: or Mothers’ Night, the Saxon winter solstice festival
Yule: the Germanic winter solstice festival
Celtic:
Samhain: November 1 – first day of winter in the Celtic calendar (and Celtic New Year’s Day)
Persian:
Sadeh: A mid-winter feast to honor fire and to “defeat the forces of darkness, frost and cold”.
Yalda: The turning point. End of the longest night of the year (Darkness), and beginning of growing of the days (Lights). A celebration of Good over Evil.
Zartusht-No-Diso: for Zoroastrians
Scottish:
Hogmanay: (Night of December 31 – Before dawn of January 1) – Scottish New Years Eve Celebration
Slavic:
Karachun – the ancient Slavs polytheistic winter solstice festival
Buddhist:
Bodhi Day, traditionally December 8th, is the Buddhist holiday that commemorates the day that the historical Buddha
neurophius @ 104
I try… Dang, I’ve no comments on my newest post… 8-(
Marion in Savannah @ 94
Easter? On the Third Day He Rose Again From the Dead, Exited the Tomb into the Light…
And if He sees His shadow, we will have six more weeks of winter?
Right?
It’s also symptomatic of another wingnut religious belief (or just red herring): that anybody choosing to say or do differently than them somehow impinges on their right to do as they choose.
Hi, me saying “Happy Soltice” actually doesn’t kill Jesus or even stop you from saying his name.
I always think how weak their faith must be, that they feel the need to force it on everyone else.
greenwarrior @ 109
nope. coming to light chanukah candles with my son.
OldCoastie @ 99
Yep, the wingnuts are pretty much a one-note crowd. Pity so many of them rejected a higher level of education, they might have come up with a larger collection of ways to denigrate others. Then again, maybe not.
BobbyG @ 105
Right. I had 7 years of theology from Jesuits so none of this is new to me. All I’m saying is it really doesn’t make Christmas any less a celebration of the birth of Christ that the early Christians chose to do it at a time which coincided with pagan feasts.
Thank you! Thank you! Historical awareness is something that most of us lack, thanks to our politicians and ideologues who want to keep us at heel. About the only things the New Testament was responsible for, in a Christmas vein, were the child and the gift giving. Everything else is, as you rightly point out, a pagan (read indigenous cosmological) ritual or ritual paraphernalia.
Lovely!
Thanks
Suzanne @ 90
I was thinking about selling a really good burger with bermuda onion.
rwcole @ 110
Which pagan gods were cannonized saints?
Beerfart Liberal @ 108
Then why is the holiday named after a pagan (Anglo-Saxon) goddess?
CTuttle @ 113
I commented on yesterday’s, and read today’s post. But I didn’t comment cause I didn’t want to look like some freaky stalker chick ;0)
Loo Hoo. @ 74
There’s a blog that a friend turned me on to called “Going Jesus” that collected a bunch of these things into one place. She calls it “The Cavalcade of Bad Nativities“, and has other, similar collections of religious kitsch. (The link is to a 2004 collection, but she’s saying now she’s putting up a new one this year.)
Oh, and the line of cafepress products she advertises is not your typical Christian stuff: WTFWJD?
My favorite Christmas music – classic – but I’m a sentimentalist…
Blue Christmas by an unexpected artiste:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related
rwcole @ 110
Virgin of Guadalupe was a pagan Mexican corn goddess from Veracruz (can’t remember her name just now). Much of the associated iconography and color symbolism are the same as well. The Jesuits made a practice of gradual conversion and used indigenous practices and beliefs to illustrate Christian doctrine, which allowed the native peoples to make equivalencies. This is why there are black Jesuses in churches all over Durango and north central Mexico. They conflated him with Xipe Totec, a reborn Aztec god. Hopefully they did not continue methods of worship, as Xipe Totec’s priests sacrificed humans by flaying them alive and then cutting out their hearts. The priests then wore the skins.
caia @ 115
ding, ding ding!
Canuck Stuck in Muck @ 119
Wasn’t the gift-giving Pagan too?
I could be mistaken. I suppose the Wise Men did bring gifts, so it may have been both. I know there were monks who observed Christmas with fasting, believing all the feasting and cavorting to be heathenism.
Hugh @ 48
707!! I’ll eat to that!
FunnyD
Suzanne @ 102
And then we’d dig through CSPAN to find a link.
Peterr @ 124
OMG, I got a bumper sticker through Cafe Press once! No Child Left A Dime
Comic Sans truly is the Font of Satan! Luckily any wingnut relatives have given up sending me stuff like this but it still drives me crazy…
BobbyG @ 114
Do you ever get the feeling that your obvious theological lessons keep repeating themselves the same way, day after day?
Got to go. G’nite, all!
Although I am not religious, one of the things I like about Christmas is all the great music.
caia @ 128
No, no! It was the Weismans! Nomadic Jews from the Negev.
Roses are Reddish, Violets are Bluish; if it wasn’t for Christmas, we’d all be Jewish.
Night Peterr.
EvilDrPuma @ 122
Because we speak English? I mean, it doesn’t matter to me. Doesn’t make it any less a Christian holy day.
Peterr @ 130
spew.. no shit! only the lake can turn a christmas carol into a cspan hearing in 3 moves.
caia @ 115
Never thought about THAT. Very interesting.
BobbyG @ 136
Actually my family would be Germanic Pagans.
I just wanted to wish TexBetsy all the best I’ve been there. I have learned not to respond to those types of e-mails, except where I know the sender is sending it out of snark. Collecting and sending them for all the Fox contested holidays became something of a contest/drinking game I’ll leave the rules to the drinking game to your imaginations.
Peterr @ 130
I like this one, as well – Alvin perjures himself…
DrDick @ 126
Jesuits have always been very sharp.
Between Thanksgiving week and New Years Eve 2001, I performed over 25 hours at the Wall Street Station on the Red and Green Lines.
Shortly before Christmas Eve the fire was put out but the subway was still thick from the smoke. Imagine the folks who braved the toxins of the area to get the economic engine of the city jump started.
Imagine as we sang “Silent Night” and other gentle Holiday songs together on the platforms.
The Gopers ain’t got a clue of the Love that happened back then. All the war and misery that the Gopers have put forth since the Towers fell, cannot stand the weight of the gentle acts of kindness that I was witness to.
Leave the self inflicted misery of the freepists behind, folks. We have a world to rebuild and an infant century full of promise still waiting.
Beerfart Liberal @ 138
Now, see, that’s just dodging. You said it wasn’t necessary to co-opt paganism for Easter, but the very name of the holiday in the Germanic languages comes from the name of the pagan goddess whose festival it co-opted. Just admit it, man.
Hugh @ 135
Me too.
(BTW- That’s Cleto Escobedo III, Music Director of the ABC Jimmy Kimmel Show, singing the 2nd verse lead of Away In A Manger. Beautiful.)
It is usually a good thing that a religion is able to accept the practices and beliefs of the old religions it is about to suck into oblivion. Christianity was great at it.
One can argue that the universal unconsciousness that Jung thought was present in religion was used as coinage by christianity in order to grow the faith.
This whole thread’s a keeper.
madmommy @ 123
I tell ya’s my wife might get suspicious…! *g*
ReneND @ 149
Every thread at Late Nite is a keeper in my humble opinion.
What is it with the addiction of right-wingers to Comic Sans MS?
Heh. Indeed.
This gives me chills, though I’m not particularly religous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;index=8
And this, cause it’s cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;index=6
GROOOOAAANNNNNNnnnnnnnnn
C Morris @ 30
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
December 25 is the first of the 12 days of Christmas. Advent hasn’t even started yet–this coming Sunday is the first Sunday of Advent.
I demand an end to the “War on Advent”! And what kind of “Christian” thinks that Christmas is over and done by December 26?
Oh, wait…maybe those Christians would like me to be “tolerant” and respect “di-ver-si-ty”. Naah–they don’t go for that stuff, do they?
Suzanne @ 151
FDL ROCKS every day (and night)!
AldeaMB @ 35
I’ll forward all my wingy emails on to you, shall I?
;-)
Suzanne @ 151
Problem is trying to bookmark everything and then actually find it again.
CTuttle @ 150
See!! I didn’t want to sow discord at the Tuttle abode during the festive holiday season. But if it will make you feel better I will go and comment, maybe I should sockpuppet?
rwcole @ 148
Accepting the older, as well as the newer, would go far… What would also go further is amending the schisms within each too… *g*
BobbyG @ 156
Always nice to see you BobbyG..and late nite is rare for you.
Blue Texan @ 152
Royalty in the house…
Hi BT!
madmommy @ 159
Tut, tut… :P
daschle? how old is this email anyway.
“cds from madonna” ?
Beerfart Liberal @ 82
It’s not simply “neither here nor there”. There is no evidence that the birth of Jesus “coincided” with the pagan celebration of Solstice. The timing is all wrong for that birthdate to have been in the winter season.
Therefore, pagan celebrations were co-opted and the birth of Christ was deemed to occur on these dates. Part of this may have been that the birth of Christ represented the emergence of a new cycle, That the sun itself was often representative of Christ. And simply that it was hard to get people to give up their old pagan ways, so that Christian symbology was overlain with the older practices and given new meanings.
It’s an old method used in converting those who are tied to other religions…retranslating their religion into new forms. The missionaries did it with West African animist gods of the Voudun pantheon…making each “god” representative of a saint and actually falling below one of the Senior gods in the pantheon.
The first Sufi missionaries in Indonesia taught their Islamic religion through the use of older characters in the Ramayana shadow-puppet tales.
Buddhism transformed the polytheistic form of Hinduism into a doctrine in which the panoply of multiple gods and spirits became avatar symbols of the different natures of Buddha. Thus you’ll see many of the same “deities” in Buddhist temples as in Hindu temples…but they aren’t deified at all.
Christianity was built upon both Jewish and post-Alexandrian Greek Philosophy (logos, sophia , the idea of virgin birth conceptions of incarnate dieties, hades) and traditions as diverse as Zoroastrianism and Egyptian Atenism. As it spread it absorbed other traditions as well.Christmas and halloween are just a couple of these.
Eureka Springs @ 161
Thanks. I lurk a lot when I can. Been kinda ill today.
Been busy looking after my folks most of this year after I got laid off in March.
EvilDrPuma @ 146
I’m not denying the origin of the name. I just don’t see the significance. The death and resurrection of Jesus are believed by alot of people to coincide pretty closely with when we celebrate Good Friday and Easter. If that’s true (and I believe it is) then it’s really coincidental that the feast of the resurrection of Jesus is in early spring at about the same time as other feasts – pagan and religious.
cinnamonape @ 165
Catholicism was significantly co-opted in Latin America…
Oh no, I’ll probably get that one. I’ll reply with a choice black friday utube shopping frenzy video.
What do you do when the nicest people send you crap? I get stuff forwarded from a relative that I don’t even think is republican. I know some are barely aware of what’s going on politically, some are gullible & so on. But it’s really weird what they send me. Very depressing how ignorant so many supposedly smart americans are.
The stuff I get on immigrants has me grinding my teeth. I usually email the debunking from snopes or similiar.
ReneND @ 149
AArghh! If this country paid as much attention to International Talk Like A Pirate Day as to Christmas, we’d be in a lot better shape. When’s the last time you saw people pumping everyone up for Talk Like a Pirate Day four weeks before Talk Like a Pirate Day? It’s the War on Talk Like A Pirate Day, I tell ya!!!
This year, I think we should talk about the War on Chanukuh until after the 12th, then we can talk about the War on Christmas.
Avast!
Suzanne @ 151
Hi Suzanne,
Read through quickly — everyone seem pretty perky, yes?
Just as ‘cult time = denomination (or religion)’, ’syncretism time = established practice’.
What’s fascinating here is that the ‘war on Christmas’ is resistance to syncretism, and that’s as futile as resisting language change. The 17th-c Puritans spent Dec 25th breaking windows of the Anglican churches in Charleston. There were presumably Druid O’Pagan types complaining that it was time to put the Myth back in Mithras, the Saturn back in Saturnalia.
This doesn’t make the Christian feast day of Christmas any less a Christian feast day. It doesn’t mean that Christians have to say ‘Oh noes, I is a pagan now.’ It just makes it a feast day with archaeology, and being attentive to that archeology is far better than backing up the rotten revisionist trailer that is ‘Judeo-Christian’ over the plot.
Ahh yes this is the time when scary night begins to be vanquished, a time when the first navigators, keepers of the calender, the great priest/storytellers came together to watch the stars. The goodfolk came together knowing the heart of winter was upon them and some gathered around the fire might not make it to spring. after a few thousand years of political/cultural and economic overlays there is still that bit of hunter/gatherer and early farmer that knows about this time in all of us it seems. And so we build up the fire and look to old friends and share our little best with them.
Ed*ard Teller @ 170
Arggghhh!!!!!!
CTuttle @ 168
In Mexico, parts of Central America, and in the Andean regions, Native peoples co-opted the symbolism of the Catholic church (based on Jesuit analogies) to allow them to continue worshiping the old gods, which was strictly forbidden and severely punished. Maya still do this. In Haiti, Cuba, Brazil, and elsewhere in the Caribbean and South America, the African slaves did the same thing. That is were Voudon, Santeria, and Condomble come from.
Beerfart Liberal @ 118
As well, can you tell me a reference to celebrations of the birth of Christ by the EARLY Christians? My understanding is that this was actually discouraged until about the 4th century. But perhaps your Jesuit training gave you access to an earlier reference.
cinnamonape @ 165
Not to be snide, but, um, so what? I mean no Christian with a brain believes the nativity narratives. I guess I’m just missing a point and probably won’t get it.
argosfalcon @ 173
Ding!
Good night all! Gotta drag the outdoor decorations out of the attic tomorrow in preparation for setting up our white trash, tacky as hell Christmas display.
Ed*ard Teller @ 170
Ha. I agree. I was referring to the christian/pagan discussion.
cinnamonape @ 176
Nope. Sorry.
Night MM.
sleep well madmom
I get this mail from two people, and always, always, debunk it w/ a link to snopes.
Some Dems dont like Nancy Pelosi all that much, but you should have seen the RW emails about her. One was a faked interview where she is spouting the communist wet dream.
I always ask, who, what, when and where. Those things are always left out.
Another I remember well was one fake interview by the Clintons supposed secret service detail, saying how rotten they were, even Chelsea-and even smeared Gore.
This God thing, though, where someone having other beliefs, or people speaking another language in America, sheesh, I suspect is cloaking (not very well) racism & religious bigotry.
And why the teddy bears, infants waving flags, sunsets and mountains, puppies waving flags, kittens, hearts and stars & eagles…..please, its so, so predictable, blah.
DrDick @ 175
Mahalo… ;-)
TexBetsy @ 116
pink boa awaits you. let me know what help you might need when you have a date….
Aloha, MM!
aarrr! i’m wit me matey ET. More time devoted to Talk Like A Pirate Day.
and also Syttende Mai. Fer shure you betcha!
shano @ 184
Thanks Shano!
I think I will make it an early night. Take care and may Hesaketa Emesse bless all of you.
nite doc
sleep well Dr D
arrrrrrr banging me head on me keyboard at all this pirate talk from alla landlubbers here
I have a grandmother who is 90-something. Bless her heart, she has e-mail access. She lives alone, and I know that it helps her feel less lonely–having that connection to the rest of the world via the “tubes”.
I tried gently passing along the Snopes article debunking some alarmist thing she sent me one, and that didn’t go over too well. So I just don’t try any more.
Beerfart Liberal @ 167
That’s because they can be set to the Jewish Passover, which is, coincidentally, a celebration of death and life that’s timed to the spring, hence the sacrificial lamb, the Korban Pesach. (Outside the world of industrial agriculture, the little lambs show up around the same time every year.)
I’m reminded of the puzzled-child questions about Australia: if it’s summer there when it’s winter here, and winter there when it’s summer here, when do they celebrate Christmas?
Well, if the Jews had been Australian, you’d likely be celebrating Hannukah and Christmas in July, and Passover and Easter in late autumn.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 188
Ah, a minnesota girl. You anywhere near Fargo? A few of us get together here once in a while.
DrDick @ 190
Bye Dr. Dick,
And I’m a bit sad, and have to be at work tomorrow at 7:30, so bye!
Beerfart Liberal @ 138
But that’s because the co-opting of elements wouldn’t diminish any celebration as a Christian celebration for YOU. It doesn’t matter “for you”. But at the same time the historical facts indicate that these festivals were co-opted. That tells historians something about the process of missionarization and conversion. The fact that these pagan, animist, or pre-existing religious symbols, names and events were “taken”…rather than an independent name, symbols, and festival dates derived from earlier Christian or Jewish customs suggests that these were critical to the success of the spread of Christianity beyond being a small Jewish sect with a fate like the Essenes. Dropping Jewish customs and taking up the trappings of the cultures it was encountering was part of early Christianities success in evangelizing the Greek and Roman worlds, and beyond.
I too will leave, the night is cold, the bed warm and I can dream such impossible things like love peace and reason being common things.
Nite, Christine and DD!
*waving g’nite to all the leaving sleepy pups*
Well, it’s that time of the hour when I gotta run. And a good thing, too. I may have been a bit snotty tonite anhd sorry to anyone on the receiving end. before I go, lemme try to make my point. See, I don’t care much about why Christmas is celebrated when it is or how Easter got it’s name because while Chrisrtians a long time ago … i guess the word being used here is “co-opted” and I’m comfortable with that …. co-opted pagan feast days, after a certain time the feast/holy day celebratec by the Christian became and undoubtedly Christian celebration and pagan origins make it no less so. But I love trivia like this. G’night. Se ya’s tomorrow.
Suzanne @ 201
‘night. I guess I’m fixin’ to crash as well.
Love the FDL posse.
Cinnamonape, You Rawk! 8-)
EvilDrPuma @ 146
And how hard was it to say Paschal, or the English translation “Passover”?
pseudonymous in nc @ 195
True. But since I moved to Florida, it almost seems like Christmas in July, anyway. I’m not used to this at all.
Dang, A mass exodus… Nite, Ya’ll!
cinnamonape @ 198
I agree.
CTuttle @ 204
So totally Agreed!
Not a total mass exodus – just the usual folks headed off to bed CT
BFL, I empathize, I live in Hawai’i!
i am still here CT
TexBetsy @ 212
I wasn’t denigrating Ya’ll, just remarking on the number… *g*
Tony Blankly said on the Mcloughlin Group that he read a book from Regnery that said they know exactly when Jeesus was born and that all the pagan stuff comes from Jeesus!
So there!
(I always trust the guy who’s dressed like a plantation owner)
Suzanne @ 210
Actually, me too, I’m still here for a bit. How are you Suz and Betsy? And CTuttle…
Ct, it really is the usual folks going at their usual times. Take off that tinfoil lei.
Sorry I was busy and didn’t get a chance to respond to you earlier, christine e. had a busy busy day and (gasp) have not even read the news other than the front page of FDL today.
I’m ok christine, yourself?
I’m still here, but nobody’s talking to me.
Having spent a few Christmases at my mother-in-law’s in Atlanta, I can say that dead-grass brown Christmases don’t inspire me at all.
hey renee in ohio – i’ll talk to ya (in between bites of carrot cake if you don’t mind)
smapdi @ 214
I ask myself, why did we waste an intellectual visa, then granted citizenship to that pompous air bag… What a shame…
There MUST BE a war on Talk Like a Pirate Day. The drummer from my son’s extinct band is over cutting firewood, and he claims he’s never heard of it. See!
Hi, Renee in Ohio.
Suzanne @ 217
Sounds like the perfect time to click on the Reality Based News Feed!
happy x-mas!
Hi Renee.
Suzanne @ 216
Tin Foil Lei? Nice… *g*
TexBetsy @ 218
OK, but way behind, and you? And sad, sad, about our TRex leaving FDL.
I guess it’s a kinda evolutionary argument. Religions that suck up the practices of other religions have an evolutionary advantage.
Ed*ard Teller @ 223
lol
Ed*ard Teller @ 223
When is it again, I’ve forgotten. It was pretty funny the first time.
Hi TexBetsy and Suzanne.
I’m only still up because I’m hungry as all get-out after getting home from teaching a couple night classes.
Surfing around trying fo find out what I can about the Republican YouTube debate without having to actually watch any of it.
thought you would like that touch, ct :)
renee, the lake live blogged it in the comments downstairs – nice place to read without having to actually watch those fools pass gas.
rwcole @ 230
OMG, boy-o, you tryin’ to start another flame war, linking religion and evolution? FOR SHAME, sir! /snark
FunnyDiva
Talk like a pirate Sept. 19th
good post, pw. and well written.
even so, i’m sure someone’s already said this.
i miss t-rex.
ReneND @ 231
September 19. You celebrated and can’t remember? Must have been fun. That, and the war on the holiday make us forget.
dmg @ 236
*sigh* I’m having to chew gum and… ;-)
trex just went next door folks. you can go over to his place (pointing at treehouse) and see that he is fine – he is having fun and enjoying himself and would not want anyone to be sad about him leaving.
Suzanne @ 240
omg, brain bleech!
I’m going to to bed. See y’all tomorrow.
Ed*ard Teller @ 238
Yes well, If that is the only thing i’ve forgotten….i’ll be thrilled.
nite betsy
pain free sleep wishes tex
I wish ya pain free sleep, Ma’am…!
thanks all.
I like Trex. Hope all is well with him.
Uh-oh, am I the only liberal who likes Comic Sans MS? Does this mean I need to change my signature font?
What font would you recommend, Phoenix Woman?
Hi to anyone I missed when I was writing my last comment.
It’s crazy time around here, being the last week of the quarter for me, and my husband is under a deadline to finish a project. Finding something to eat once I get home requires a certain amount of “foraging”.
One of the classes I reach meets only once a week. There was no class last week due to Thanksgiving. So I’ve got a lot to cover tomorrow, plus review for the final, and oh, by the way, someone from my department needs to observe part of my class.
I’ll come back and read the YouTube threads after I survive tomorrow’s class. Now I’d better get some sleep.
Suz, You’re being paged… ;-)
Sandia Blanca @ 250
I LOVE that font. I’m not changing. I don’t think anyone will mistake me for a wingnut or even a conservative or even a moderate or even a liberal. Left of all those dials, Comic Sans MS notwithstanding.
Among Republicans in Iowa, 32% believe former Gov. Mike Huckabee won tonight’s Republican debate; former Gov. Mitt Romney gets 16%, former Mayor Rudy Giuliani 12%, Sen. John McCain 10%, former Sen. Fred Thompson 7%, Rep. Ron Paul 6%.
Among Republicans in Florida, 44% believe Huckabee won the debate; Giuliani gets 18%, Romney 13%, McCain 10%, Thompson 5%.
All other candidates receive less than five percent each.”
Interesting. Huckleberry’s got a hard on fer the nomination
Suzanne @ 241
Is true. But I think some of us are sad for ourselves because there’s a fresh, therapod-shaped hole in the Late Nite community. I’m glad that TRex is happy with the move and that there’s camraderie at the TreeHouse along with the snark. And I’m looking forward to how Late Nite evolves going forward.
It’s just that there’s some mourning, too. Not for TRex himself, maybe, but because what he contributed here was valuable and it’s worth being a bit sad that those contributions are no longer ongoing here.
Hmm. That made more sense in my mind than in written form, but I’m probably in EPU land anyway…
FunnyDiva
Seems to me that the worst thing that could happen from a gooper point of view is a face off of Huckleberry vs Rudy.
It’s the Jesus people vs. the tax cuts and kill islamo fascist people. Could signal the beginning of a public meal as the two eat each other.
rwcole @ 253
Amazing, having won and being, you know, soft on those immigrants and all. And in GooperCentral, no less…
Go Huck!
greenwarrior @ 252
Eveery time you send an html e-mail God eviscerates a kitten!
no, that is valid, funny d. i’m just saying that he does not want us acting like he died or something. he is having fun – yes there is a hole but there are changes coming according to what he said last nite. me, i’m choosing to look forward and not be all teary like i was last nite. tonight, i am a lot better than i was last nite.
If the goopers figure out that Rudy’s a dick- well then things are super fucked up in gooperville- cause that’s who the money bags guys are rootin fer.
tw3k @ 258
oh, well, in that case…
Trex may have been a bit too much of a free spirit for this blog.
Suzanne @ 258
Heh, ‘Simper Fi’… ;-)
Suzanne @ 259
Yeah. I knew we were on the same page. Just wanted to reach a hand back for those who aren’t quite where you are yet.
(((SOOO-zanne)))
FunnyD
Funnydiva2002 @ 254
I didn’t know who he was talking about half the time but when he is in form he is really funny.
rwcole @ 259
Well then they’re going to get a real kick out of this…
“Giuliani billed obscure agencies for trips“
It’s to sleep for me. Nite. Nite.
Jane recognized his brilliance when he was just a commenter like us here. She started him on this path he is on and has to be proud he is out of the nest flexing his wings on his own. Sure the nest feels lonesome sometimes, but that’s what life is all about. If we do not change and grow, we are stagnant.
If Rudy pisses himself in public, then gooper might go for Freddie- on the theory that a dead guy can’t do anything to humiliate the party.
Managed to get my tree up between reading the comments. Thanks to Cinnamonape for all of the facts. It was so interesting. Midnight here, and I’m off to bed.
i think the goopers, if not rudy, will latch onto huckabee. they don’t like flip flopper mitch and don’t trust his religion. hucks they do – IOKIYAF(fundy)
Renee in Ohio @ 232
Renee,
I only watched a few minutes of Fred Thompson. I swear Rudy gave him a look that translated roughly into “There is a hit in your very near future.” Such a look!
eerrrr. flip flopper MITT not mitch.. sorry for the error
rwcole @ 268
Maybe the overall GopperSphere will, but the Fundys will fall back to Huck, since they will have been burned so badly. Split that party big time.
I hate Comic Sans with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns. Glad I’m not the only one.
…and I owe Suzanne a giant-sized Coke!
If Huck wins the nomination, Wallstreet will abandon the gooper party for good. They have never believed that the Lord sends em dividends.
newtonusr @ 275
so pay up dood – and i believe it is more than just one you owe me.
Typical wallstreet guy may go to church sometimes- but he ainta gonna piss all over himself fer the Lord.
CTuttle @ 263
Wasn’t that Simper Phi? Funny anyway. I’m on my way over to read the comment thread.
And free-spirited in itself isn’t a problem, necessarily. But sometimes it’s hard to curb the snark and wit enough to recognize that not everyone who says “hey, that was insulting” is a wimp or a whiner and that there _is_ such a thing as playing too rough (especially as a front-pager). Even in Late and Late Late Nite.
But that is my personal impression/guess as to a tiny bit of what might possibly have happened behind the scenes. And I have to give props to TRex and the FDL powers that be for handling what was probably a tricky and uncomfortable situation so professionally. That nobody seems to have lost face publicly makes EVERYONE look good IMHO.
Early morning for me tomorrow. See y’all briefly at the TreeHouse, and then tomorrow afternoon, PST.
{{{{{FirePups!}}}}}
FunnyDiva
rwcole @ 276
If Eureka Springs is about, he may have a thing or two to say about Huck and dollars…
Not the cleanest dude in town.
rwcole, as long as the GOP is screwed (and not in the good way), I don’t care how they fail or who abandons them – as long as they fail and are left all by themselves with no one to blame but themselves.
ReneND @ 196
Late getting back to the thread (frenzied domestic interval) so don’t know if you’re still up, ReneND, i’m in sin city (Minneapolis)
Huck may believe that the Lord splashes money all over those whom he annoints.
The real gooper problem is that Clusterfuck tried every fuckin thing in their bag of tricks and none of it worked. Sounds like a serious problem to me. So what do they say now? That asshole just didn’t do it “good” enough?
rwcole @ 277
No, indeedy, just “values voters” who can be manipulated into ignoring their economic interests in favor of judging and punishing anyone who isn’t their brand of fundie–or even just a “godless lib’rul”.
FunnyD
Try to imagine Huck as prez for a minute. Can’t do it? Me either.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 282
Yes, still here a minute or two. My daughter is in Minneapolis, so I’m there regularly.
Fell in love in Minneapolis once or twice but it was too fuckin cold to take my pants off.
Suzanne @ 281
From your keyboard to god’s ear…
late late nite is up
Goopers all get screwed in the BAD way–with sand in the KY Jelly.
Alicia @ 274
lol,
I guess I’ll join the anything but comic sans party :)
rwcole @ 288
or coat, or scarf… 8 degrees here tonight. brrr
Rene
Frustratin ain’t it?
You can’t believe how cold the universe can get until you search for your rental car in a Minneapolis parking lot at midnight.
rwcole @ 294
Yes tis. Only a dusting of snow, but bitter cold.
newtonusr @ 280
Well, he likes it a lot and can’t keep his hands on it.
There are guys out there who fuck their money. It’s not romantic- but it turns em on.
I’m always willing to have the knowledge of folks trained by Jesuit, as they are often the most aware of the sourcing of Church History. Leaving aside the issues of whether here was an historical Jesus (which in my view is supported, not be contemporaneous records of the individual, but by the rapid diversity and spread of the “cult” of Jesus), a little searching on the internet and a couple of reference books I have indicates that Church Fathers discouraged any celebration of Christs birth until the 4th Century.
Tertullian, the 2nd c. Church Father, does not mention any nativity feast day at all, either as a heresy or sanctioned festival. The theologian Origen in 245 AD condemned celebrations of Christ’s birthday “as if he were a king or pharaoh.” Perhaps showing the influence of gnostic theology which denigrated the flesh over the spirit, Origen argued that sinners, not saints, revelled in their carnal emergence (birthday).
The Roman Calendar of Filocalus (354 AD) is the first to suggest that a festival called Christ’s Mass existed. In his Chronographiai/em>, a reference written in AD 221, Sextus Julius Africanus spread the erroneous idea that Christ was born on December 25. This is nine months following the Incarnation (March 25)- today’s Feast of the Annunciation. This was also the date of the Vernal Equinox,the time of the Jewish Passover, and traditionally also the date of the creation of Adam. It was also held that this was the traditional date of the crucifixion. Because Jews believe that true prophets lived an exact number of years to the day, early Christians believed this was also the date Christ was crucified.
But Africanus, and early Christians, muddled the tradition in two significant ways. If the Jewish prophetic tradition was followed, then Christ would have been BORN on March 25th. This could not be the date of his spiritual INCARNATION. In fact, the Gospels hold that Jesus was not filled with the holy spirit until the 6TH MONTH of Mary’s pregnancy. Thus the date of INCARNATION (not birth) would be be about December 25th if Jesus had been born on March 25th.
Africanus calculated that Jesus was born 9 MONTHS after the traditional March 25th date of Incarnation. (Presumably he either neglected to read the Scriptures correctly, or believed that the term of pregnancy was 15 months). In any event he didn’t recognize the fact that there would have been only three months left from the Scripturally accurate 6th month Incarnation (March 25) to the time of birth (June 25th).
An official Christmas festival was only recognized after the revival of Catholicism in the Eastern Roman Empire following the defeat and death of the Arian Emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. A Christ Mass feast emerged in Constantinople in 379 and Antioch in 380. The feast terminated after Bishop Gregory of Nazianzus resigned in 381, but was reintroduced in Constantinople by John Chrysostom around 400. It spread more slowly elsewhere, arriving in Alexandria about 430. Given that Arianism was still dominant in many Slavic, North African and Western European areas, it likely had a slow spread there. This may be why the festival was merged with traditional pagan celebrations, particularly those with Celtic or Germanic elements.
Like your mom said, never put yer money in yer mouth- you never know where it’s been.
There are a dozen or so doozies runnin fer president who haven’t had a good night’s sleep or spoken an true sentece for months.
ReneND @ 287
if you want to try to meet up some time give me a holler at gjuerne (my cat’s name but she doesn’t read) at yahoo and hope you understand this outwitting the spambots we hope
Funnydiva2002 @ 279
‘Simper Fi’ – that’s Matt Sanchez.
rwcole @ 253
Actually, I agree that Huckabee “on”…if “winning” in a race to see who can jump into and swim out of a septic tank makes one a “winner”.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 302
Got it -will do. Fun. I actually love Minneapolis and if she decides to stay we may head that direction. At least it is a blue state.
My wrongwing friends send me that kind of stuff from time to time. And they aren’t surprised when I reply by debunking it point by point. In fact, they expect it as they don’t want to have to do their own research to see if the message is true or not.
ReneND @ 305
there are a few more firepups here, we haven’t gotten around to organizing a meetup yet, it would be fun.
O’Reilly and the other wingnuts re-write our history to support their religious fascism. While xmas was certianly celebrated by the British State Church and the Catholic Church, in America, since the revolution had rejected much British, Xmas isnt even mentioned in Alminacs until the mid 1800’s. The Puritians even arrested people who celebrated xmas because they knew christ was not be born in winter. Xmas in America was Carnival time! Wassail time! The poor electing kings and queens of missrule!
The Real Battle for Christmas
The Battle for Christmas: A Social and Cultural History of Christmas That Shows How It Was Transformed from an Unruly Carnival Season into the Quintessential American Family Holiday. – book reviews
Journal of Social History, Fall, 1998 by David Yosifon
By Stephen Nissenbaum (New York: Alfred A. Knopf 1997. xiii plus 381pp.).
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-C…..0679740384
oh, fuck these people. Really.
They embarrass the Baby Jesus. Yes, they do.
Create your own counter-emails. Circulate them back.
Why is it that only liberalism is associated with the taking of Jesus out of Christmas, the so-called “reason for the season”? (And don’t you love it when they get all frothy over the abbreviation “XMas”?) If you’re going to blame the ACLU, then you’d better have equal scorn for Macy’s and Wal-Mart. I don’t see this happening with the War on Christmas people–their kids would go crazy.
My relatives are fond of passing along such nonsense, too.
Rancid spam
Tut Tut.
Several people mentioning Snopes without a one of them pointing out that the Santa – Coca-Cola thing is a myth;
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp
C’mon people, look alive!
I no longer receive these kinds of nonsensical screeds. I found out some time ago that if you analyze them, cut them into tiny little pieces and send them back to the sender with a note to the effect “stop sending me this crap”, that you stop getting them. Of course, some people may stop speaking to you, as 2 of my work colleagues did after 9/11 when I dismantled crazy tub-thumping nonsense that they sent me, but you can’t have everybody like you.
I’m sorry, but I happen to LOVE Comic Sans MS, and I’m no right-winger!
I’m sure the thread’s gone stone cold by now, but I want to contribute my favorite Christmas Story, which I’m sending as my Christmas letter this year–all about the time when a bunch of strolling carolers in a Hollywood shopping mall sang “The Christmas Song” (you know, ‘chestnuts roasting on an open fire,’ etc.) to an audience that just happened to include the guy who wrote it–Mel Torme. It’s a great story, and totally NON-political. Here’s the link:
http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL245.htm
Happy Holidays, all!!
Alicia @ 274
Luckily, they found the guy that invented it.
http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
Beerfart Liberal @ 82
December 25 is the birthday of Mithra, “the unconquered sun” who was celebrated with lots of lights in people’s windows. It was arbitrarily decided to celebrate Jesus’s birthday on that day in order to co-op the very popular holiday. Everyone knew Jesus had not been born on that day. This is a historical fact.
The holiday got a further boost from Saint Francis, who invented the Christmas creche and pageant as a way to educate the illiterate.
Through St. Francis, the Christmas story became a celebration of the created world — matter — which as God’s creation Christians (unlike certain heresies, supposedly) deem to be good.
It is because Christmas is a pagan holiday that Cromwell banned it — but it came back like a boomerang after the end of his regime. In the end Cromwell went down in ignominy, not Christmas.
I like the fact that Christmas has been a materially oriented celebration for a thousand years. I’m a fan of Saint Francis and am happy, though an agnostic, to take some time to celebrate the world and its creatures. If only the official holiday were really 12 days long!
Heh Guys and girls. I am an atheist, and live in a Muslim country at the moment. Most countries have a predominant religion, and the main feast days/holidays/religious significant days are imported into their legal holiday structure. In Kuwait where I live, it is expected that Christians will take a coule of days or more vacation to celebrate Christmas, and this is considered normal.
However, the legal holidays turn around the Muslim calendar, with 2 or 3 days for Eid el Fitr at the end of Ramadan and so on.
I have no problem saying to Muslim colleagues “Ramadan Mubarrak” in the same way I would say to a Christian “Merry Christmas”. Similarly people say both to me.
This whole debate is just anal, and without any real meaning, whether it is Billo with his war on Christmas or the FDL bloggers with their happy Chanukah (whatever that is?). All societies tend to designate certain days for festivities, and a recurring theme of all them is that they should show some gestures of goodness to others.
In an ideal world we would all communally celebrate everybody’s feast days and be nice to each other.
IMHO
Beerfart Liberal @ 82
‘where two or more are gathered in my Name’ or something like that…
DrDick @ 141
Do you have an irresistible urge to conquer Russia in the dead of winter?
rwcole @ 288
An yet, you went back for more!
LOL