I don’t quite understand this wingnut trend to “volunteer” to be waterboarded:
Ashcroft caused an uproar when he declared Guantanamo Bay was a “good place” for detainees. In addition, he defended the torture tactic of waterboarding:
Ashcroft also responded to questions from the audience. The first question came from a woman who asked if Ashcroft would be willing to be subjected to waterboarding.
“The things that I can survive, if it were necessary to do them to me, I would do,” he said.
Tough guy he-man terror warrior Glenn Reynolds also recently said he’d be “happy” to be waterboarded and suggested Michael Mukasey do the same.
Where to begin?
First of all, does volunteering to willingly submit to an illegal practice make the practice somehow all good? I mean, I could volunteer to be shot up with sodium pentothal, but that doesn’t mean the Austin Police department should start questioning suspects that way. Also, isn’t there just a teensy bit of difference between willingly participating in something as opposed to having the procedure forced upon you?
And what does Ashcroft mean by “necessary” here? Does he mean to say that he would be waterboarded if it were necessary to prove that it’s a perfectly swell technique or that he’d do it to keep alive? And who gets to decide that it’s necessary? Because I’m pretty sure the people we’ve waterboarded weren’t given a choice.
Finally, Ashcroft’s definition of torture seems to be “anything that doesn’t kill you” which is about as creepy and disturbing as it gets — and not at all surprising. And this guy was our AG. Great.
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Impeach.
zed for me?
nope
Sounds like he thinks he couldn’t survive waterboarding, but would be happy to try something else. He’d be happy to pay us Wednesday for a hamburger today.
Yo, Asscroft — prove it.
Also, during this speech, when asked about the hospital room goon squad visit, he lamely answered the question about who called his wife by saying he was sedated at the time. Is there a course on how to skirt questions Republican style 101?
Ashcroft is just like Bush. He talks tough knowing that he will never, ever have to backup his assertions with deeds. It’s so easy to pretend to be a tough guy when all that’s required is words.
Oh, I want to see the demo. Televise it. See if he can sing while gurgling and shooting snot bubbles through his beak.
John Ashcroft: El Macho!
Let’s have Chimpy, Darth and Kinda Sleazie do the waterboarding on Ashcroft. No worries about them screwing it up.
Badwater @ 7
Bush seems to have been attacked by a spell of some kind that leaves him unable to articulate…reprent…by Ehh..uh.Ud….Omlert and Mahamahood Ayebas…
The first question came from a woman who asked if Ashcroft would be willing to be subjected to waterboarding.
“Can the AT & T corporate logo appear on the towel?”
Well… now wait a minute… maybe if he’s waterboarded by the “right” people… we’d finally get the ‘truth’ out of him about Bush/Cheney/Rove/Gonzales/Rice/Rumsfeld/etc…
Think about it… hmmm?
[RBG Note; we really don’t want to suggest anyone should suffer that fate.]
Doesn’t sound to me that Ashcroft has any interest at ALL in being Waterboarding. His response appears to mean “If someone forced me to do it- I’d survive—I hope”.
When the eaaaaagleee liiiiiiessss……
It’s torture, and he knows it’s torture, and he knows it is illegal…he knows very well that he’d end up on ice like the guy at Abu Gharib.
LS @ 15
Test your gag reflex here.
this is absolute bulldicky. waterboarding or any torture is only effective as torture when the tortured is not sure he/she will live. anytihing else is bogus. these nuts are just trying to prove their point that “see I survived and said nothing’ so therfore it’s not torture. if it were a real life situation they’d all crap in their pants.
It is difficult to understand the insane mind or it’s motivations. Attempting to causes distress that you may want to avoid unless there is a physical danger to your immediate vicinity.
I wrote about this this morning over at my place. What is further freaky to me, is that is mentioned in the Rocky Mountain News, but not in the Boulder Daily Camera!
That just flat freaks me out. Boulder is infamous for it’s left leaning, and is fondly (sometimes) referred to as”The Independant Republic of Boulder; 26 Square Miles Surrounded By Reality.” We’re talking serious granola-town here, with a big dollop of patchouli if you get my drift.
Just what in the hell is going on if the Boulder Daily Camera is becoming part of the Village Wurlitzer?
i kinda liked steven king’s suggestion to waterboard jenna.
The bestselling author offered his unorthodox investigative method in a Time magazine interview during a discussion about the media’s coverage of celebrity news.
“I said something to the ‘Nightline’ guy about waterboarding, and if the Bush administration didn’t think it was torture, they ought to do some personal investigation,” King recounted to Time. “Someone in the Bush family should actually be waterboarded so they could report on it to George.”
“I said, I didn’t think he would do it, but I suggested Jenna be waterboarded and then she could talk about whether or not she thought it was torture,” King continued.
BobbyG @ 17
LOL
Diane @ 6
The closest I’ve seen to an answer, from Comey’s 5_15_07 SJC testimony:
More finally – isn’t there a difference between volunteering to do something you know you won’t do and actually doing something?
linda @ 22
my post didnt show up…i was suggesting Bar,for the job,for her water displacement possibilities
LS @ 23
Dude be funky, ‘eh? He needs to come to Vegas and hang and sit in with our band. We have guest artists all the time.
“The things that I can survive, if it were necessary to do them to me, I would do,” he said.
Now that’s a very interesting statement in light of what we know about the Bush Family Crime Syndicate. VERY interesting indeed.
1,672 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Blue Texan and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
JEEzus…the founding fathers must be askin’ God ta change their citizenship! We have full blown fascism in ALL the branches of the federal government and we have the God damned Clintons runnin’ as the Democratic alternative.
The Norske has been callin’ for mass direct action as the only way to break the oligarchic control of the Democratic Party …I think the movie “V For Vendetta” was a blueprint. Gunna need ta knock a lotta things down before we ken restore the IDEAS that have defined our democracy for 200 years.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…WE GOTTA LEARN TA TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER AGAIN!!
My question is how many people died or were brain damaged by being waterboarded by this country & will we ever find out?
linda @ 22
Someone in the Bush family should serve in Iraq and report on it, but that’s not going to happen either.
Clusterfuck says that his big peace meeting in Annapolis WAS a hopeful beginning- past tense- so it’s all over?
“Is that all there is- is that all there is? If that’s all there is my friend- then let’s go dancing”
I read that it’s impossible for him to admit it’s torture without exposing members of the Administration to lawsuits. I admit I don’t fully understand that, but assuming it’s true that’s likely why he said that. Can somebody explain or correct my first sentence?
If a cop waterboarded a non-citizen suspect for information, I get the impression that the last three AG’s would not only find it constitutional but would argue to allow the evidence in court. I almost wish some cop would do that, just so I could watch the Justice dept squirm.
Boxturtle(Alas, that would probably be popular with the GOP base. Animals.)
Boxturtle @ 35
That was the basis of the whole Mukasey waffle.
I’d like it to be necessary for Ashcroft to testify before a House Judiciary Committee considering impeachment procedings against Bush and Cheney for going around the Fourth Amendment and the FISA court FOR YEARS, as well as other various charges.
Mr. Ashcroft, I’m sure you could survive answering a congressional subpoena as well as answering truthfully and fully the questions that might be asked. The Bush Administration, on the other hand, might not survive such testimony.
This goes beyond the shocks the conscience standard of the 2005 Bradbury OLC opinion cited by Mukasey and instead hearkens back to the 2002 Bybee, Yoo, Addingtion memo:
How are ya gonna give up info that will save the world, if yer dayed? D’Oh…
“Finally, Ashcroft’s definition of torture seems to be “anything that doesn’t kill you” which is about as creepy and disturbing as it gets — and not at all surprising. And this guy was our AG. Great.”
And to think Darth and his gang could come up with something (at his hospital bed) that even he wouldn’t approve!
How scary is that?
newtonusr @ 23
That question was put to Ashcroft by commenter Kathleen who’d asked Marcy Wheeler and the other folks at TNH what she should ask.
Bravo to Kathleen.
Oh foo. What did I do to end up in mod this time? I stayed away from the spec*al words and g*mbling stuff…
I was wondering when someone would bust out a Let The Eagles Soar reference.
Didn’t take long at all.
Rayne @ 40
Hard-refresh, Rayne. It is there.
And this guy was our AG. Great.
Until even *he* got too creeped out by this administration…
ModNote: While this post brings this gruesome practice into focus, no one would seriously advocate its use and comments suggesting such are subject to moderation and removal.
Rayne @ 39
Yes, and the thing about his answer is that he confirms that he wasn’t just ill, he was actually “sedated”, which means they pressured a sedated man to sign-off on their crimes.
Boxturtle @ 33
Because torture is illegal in the US. So, if you commit torture, not only have you committed a crime, you have also committed a tort (a civil wrong for which you can be sued)
The Lurking Mod @ 44
No one here, that is.
At 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, on the other hand, its use has not only been seriously advocated but also approved. This, I submit, qualifies them for removal.
Paging Mr. Lurking Rep . . . Mr. Lurking Rep to the white courtesy phone . . .
When is the crisco man going to appear before Leahy and/or Waxy? And one wonders what will happen if he refuses to tell the truth?
And was good in comparison to his successor.
STTP in Ohio @ 38
Could it get any more scary and creepy? Oh yeah…
President Rudy Giuliani.
Ashcroft:
““The things that I can survive, if it were necessary to do them to me, I would do,” he said.”
1) There are things that I can survive, and there are things that I cannot survive
2) There are things that it is necessary to do to me, and there are things that it is not necessary to do to me
3) I would do things that I can survive, if it is necessary to them to me
This does not say whether waterboarding is one of those things that he can survive.
Therefore it does not say whether he would submit himself to waterboarding.
Or whether it is torture.
Or whether there are any circumstances in which it would be necessary to waterboard him.
LS @ 45
IIRC correctly he had just had surgery.
The other thing none of these discussions seem to be including is that the waterboarding treatment is not the whole of it. These prisoners – who are randomly and brutally “waterboarded” – live for years in the most debased and abjectly dehumanizing conditions, completely hopeless, apparently tortured in many ways. Waterboarding a small portion of the treatment these people are subjected to.
I would be happy to allow Glenn Reynolds and John Ashcroft, among others, to see if they can prove waterboarding is ‘not as bad as all that’ if they will also allow themselves to also be locked away in the same kind of conditions that, say Jose Padilla or any of the prisoners at GB have endured for, say, one year.
How about that? Lets also say they can still write and blog about whatever they wish to. Now that would be interesting.
Cliff Varnell @ 50
President Rudy Giuliani, Queen Judith, and Vice Chancellor Jeb Bush…
If this was done to him, the arrangement would be that they would do it to him once, he would tap out, and that would be it. The whole thing would last 5 seconds.
Woohoo… see how safe and un-torture like waterboarding is?
He wouldn’t remain strapped down as he repeatedly aspirates the water, chokes, then gags on the water as it runs into his sinuses again.
Volunteer is one of many key words here. I suppose anyone who wants to volunteer for waterboarding should be allowed to try it.
Mitt Romney and VP Cofer Black
NorskeFlamethrower @ 29
Dude maybe a little less protien in the diet?
looseheadprop @ 47
I was under the impression that the president & his staff had immunity for acts comitted the the furtherence of duties(Not the exact wording, I know) and I’m pretty confident that they could show that making terrorists talk is part of the job of the Government. So whom could be sued? And whom could be jailed?
So I’m still confused as to how Ashcroft saying it’s torture could open any hole that wasn’t there before.
Boxturtle(LHP, more enlightenment needed for stupid turtle)
The Lurking Mod @ 44
ModNote: While this post brings this gruesome practice into focus, no one would seriously advocate its use and comments suggesting such are subject to moderation and removal.
I wouldn’t advocate its use in a forceful manner on anyone, but if he’s *volunteering*, (and the statement can quite easily be read that way) then I say boo-yah, go for it, big guy…
Actually, I’m kind of surprised that no one from the admin has been ‘ordered to volunteer’ to one or more of these techniques, just to show the public that, really, it’s no big deal.
“See Dan here – he works in the mail room. He “volunteered” to be waterboarded, and here he is today, only two weeks later, and ya can tell by lookin’ at him that he’s just fine now.”
looseheadprop @ 47
and since we have admitted to waterboarding, it can’t be considered torture.
nomolos @ 48
Isn’t it great that Democrats have subpoena power? We’ve learned so much, and the subpoenas are never ignored.
/s
TeddySanFran @ 61
A commenter over at Thingprogress referred to a commenter at Atrios….that Leahey may have the missing RNC emails, and that the rumor is that they catch KKKarl redhanded in the Siegleman case.
teddysanfran @ 63
Go Democrats!
Boxturtle @ 59
Because it is a crime. And committing a crime cannot be within the scope of your official duties.
Please please please hold the football long enough for me to kick it this time. Please. Please?
LS @ 63
TeddySanFran @ 62
And if they were ignored, of course we would enforce them.
TeddySanFran @ 62
Come for the news and information–stay for the snark!
that Leahey may have the missing RNC emails, and that the rumor is that they catch KKKarl redhanded in the Siegleman case.
Oh, please, please, PLEASE!
War On War Off @ 70
Just a rumor …here’s the link..see comment #12:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/28/250000-2/
You tease me so. It’s just cruel. If only it were true…
neurophius @ 68
Yeah, remember all that summertime chatter about inherent contempt and the lockup under the Capitol dome? Not so much anymore.
eCAHNomics @ 49
ECAHNomics – do you remember what governor it was – Carey? – in New York, who offered to drink a glass of PCBs when the State Office Building in Binghamton was shut down because of contamination?
Toby Wollin @ 73
You got it. http://www-tech.mit.edu/archiv…..0_P003.pdf
and scroll down a bit.
TeddySanFran @ 74
Ahhh, good times. Good times.
May we remind ourselves that during the Easter season many Philipinos get crucified voluntarily.
Should we make crucifixion part of interrogation techniques????????
yes televise it…people can volunteer to be waterboarded and we can vote on both the boarderer and the boardee
or maybe make it a pay per view show with the proceeds going to legal fees for Abu Gonzales
Jelco Cathlon @ 76
Only if they volunteer for it like Ashcroft volunterered for waterboarding.
Jelco Cathlon @ 78
Would it be going to far if we waterboarded them while they were nailed to the cross?
WWJD? (What Would Jackbauer Do)
eCAHNomics @ 74
Yep – another GOP who made a totally empty offer of getting himself hurt in order to discredit the Democrats:
“Governor Hugh Carey of NY offered “to walk into
Binghamton or any part of that building and swallow an entire glass of PCB’s.” Carey nmade the offer to illustrate
that a contaminated state office building was safe. Carey added, “You’ve got to take PCB’s in quanlilies,
deadly, over a long period of time and probably be pregnant, which I don’t intend to become, and then you gel PCB contamination.”
Carey was the governor before Cuomo. When the State Office Building in Binghamton was totally contaminated by a fire in the electrical system, no one wanted to work there at all. The Health Dept. brought in the expert, Dr. Arnold Schechter, who had been used on Agent Orange in Vietnam. The Democrats wanted the building closed down – Carey wanted to show it was “no big deal” He even offered to run a vaccuum cleaner in the building himself.
The building was closed down for years. They were considering just covering it in cement as a memorial, but eventually it was cleaned up and people went back to work in it.
But again, a totally empty offer of bravery – he knew he would never be made to do it; he knew that no one in their right mind would make him do it.
Jesus syndrome.hmmmmwell this could explain why Ashcroft volunteered:
“Who would volunteer for such torture? The truly devout? Or perhaps otherwise? A closer examination of Filipino crucifiction volunteers has revealed that most are criminals, women accused of adultery, or other Islanders seeking to atone for real or imagined social disgrace or ’sins’ by enduring public torture. The motivation behind the ritual crucifiction probably has little to do with Christ, and more to do with social redemption. Indeed, it seems to be effective. After being nailed to a cross, ritual participants are indeed held in high regard and respect, and their sordid past forgotten.
The phenomena is so well described, as to be given a name: ‘The Jesus Syndrome’ by psychiatrists.”
http://www.smthop.com/comments…..mment=true
TW@80
According to wiki & my memory, Caery was a D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Carey
“Nail ‘em to the cross I say! NAIL some sense into ‘em…”
/Life of Brian
eCAHNomics @ 83
You are correct – my fault.
Jelco Cathlon @ 77
There are people who pay tatoo parlors to slice their skin into strips and braid it so that it scars into a braided formation.
It’s called “body modification”–should we do that to folks too? This is carzy
looseheadprop @ 87
I suppose it the pattern is tasteful…
Smugby at 80
A new FDL classic!
Toby Wollin @ 84
My fondest wish for you is that should be the worst mistake you ever make. *g*
Anyone else having problems with the Quote this Comment button? Just started for me & happened on 2 separate comments.
WWJD (What Would Jackbauer Do?)
I honestly don’t know where I might have heard that from. It is too clever by half to have come from my brain. Anyone heard that one?
Do I get credit?!
(cause I’m pretty pleased with it if ya can’t tell!)
Hey LHP,
I just volunteered your name over at TNH as a possible attendee to Ashcroft’s speaking engagement at Cornell on Nov. 29th s part of his Pro Patriot Act Tour sponsored by Young America Foundation.
We’re still looking to sandbag John-boy with more questions about his stay in the Hospital.
Boy, am I in trouble now. *g*
eCAHNomics @ 91
Nope.
Mad Dogs @ 95
‘Cause it’s not like LHP wants a career as a lawyer or anything…
Mad Dogs @ 93
Next question…Well, who did your wife tell you called her from the Whitehouse?
Just so we’re clear, comments that advocate violence against others, including practices of torture, are subject to moderation and may be removed from the thread.
Let’s talk about the issue without personalizing it please.
For Ashcroft [whom I had the privilege of voting against when I was in MO] to make a sincere gesture, it would require his willingness:
1. to be flown to a country not of his choosing;
2. to be forced to stand, without sleep, until he is willing to make any statement the interrogator demands;
3. be grilled–and then waterboarded–by a hostile team of interrogators until he makes any statement the interrogator demands.
Waterboarding and sleep deprivation may not be any good for ascertaining the truth, but they are certainly good for eliciting false confessions.
It shouldn’t, nevertheless, happen–even to him.
There was a time when you could get even conservative agreement to the idea that the rights and value of human beings were not negotiable or granted by governments at their discretion but rather “endowed by the Creator” and therefore “unalienable.” (Look it up.)
Bush bizarro world is getting more and more…well, bizarro.
Scooter getting rich off of Iraqi oil…Bush skipping out on his own “Peace Summit”…now the former Attorney General of the United States of America says he would submit to torture.
You know, given all this craziness, the clenis saying he was for the war before he was against it sorta makes sense now.
You can go upstairs to see my latest zed now!
ACLU – FISA thready goodness upstairs…
It would be a joke if these testosterone-poisoned volunteers show up at some sterilized location for their waterboarding experience and claim it’s the real thing. Instead they should be told that the Army (or whoever administering the test) will get back to them and set up an appointment.
But the “appointment” will be when half a dozen guys dressed in all black, including the balaclavas over their heads, to break down their front doors at 3:00 am some randomly chosen day, pull their “suspect” out of bed by the feet or hair, throw a hood over his head, shackle him, then drag him out and throw him into the back of a van. Then drive him around for a few hours before stopping at some godforsaken, deserted location so far from anywhere that all he can hear are the birds, if there are any. Then they toss him naked into a dark 4′x4′x6′ “cell” for a few weeks with nothing for company except 100 db heavy metal 24/7. Food and water are provided at bare subsistence levels, at random intervals. After a couple of weeks of this, haul him out and interrogate him, throwing a few punches here and there. In other words, just follow the procedures in the Guantanamo Operations Manual.
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Guan…..al_torture
If you don’t convince the prick this ain’t no drill, it won’t be a fair test.
Of course he’s going to say that!
Because he’ll never be put to the test and he knows it.
Right. Just like he volunteered to fight in Vietnam.
I know BT’s question was rhetorical, but I still have to say it: The question of volunteering doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference to the person undergoing waterboarding. Ask Daniel Levin, who lost his State Dept job not long after willingly submitting himself to waterboarding, then writing a memo describing the terrifying, dehumanizing process as “torture” and “abhorrent.”
If Ashcroft really were to voluntarily undergo waterboarding–oh, let’s just call it by its right name: the slow, controlled, systematic drowning of a person under controlled conditions that can usually be stopped just before death–by experts, under expert supervision, his initial willingness wouldn’t matter in the slightest after a few moments. Once his lungs began to fill up and he couldn’t stop it, he would be reduced to flailing, panic-filled, do-anything-to-stop-it horror, even if some remaining part of his mind remembered that the supervisors would stop the process before it killed him.
Which is as good a reason as I can think of for taking him up on his offer.
But that’s just me.
bn
not sure about the rest of you but if wingnuts want to be tortured via waterboarding, I think it would be great.
they would at least know what they were talking about. . . for once.
Umm, at the risk of pointing out the obvious (but I don’t think anybody here HAS pointed it out yet), it’s very easy to say — and even easier to merely imply — that you’d be quite happy to be waterboarded, when (at the moment) there’s absolutely no threat or likelihood of anything like that actually happening. He’s just flapping his jaw.
We should avoid the trap of taking up Ashcroft and other masochists on their offers to be waterboarded. It is irrelevant if they don’t mind the treatment too much personally. As John McCain said in tonight’s debate, waterboarding is torture under the Geneva Convention and U.S. law, plain and simple.
I have an idea that would probably silence any politician or other public figure who offers to be waterboarded for any reason.
Rather than take them up on their offer directly, instead have them tell us which of their relatives they’d allow us to waterboard. Or, if they’d rather, they can give us one of our own choosing (age 18 or older).