Even as Bush and his PNAC Platoon allies in and out of the media pretend that Al Qaeda and/or Iran is the biggest threat ever in Iraq (even though 41% of all the jihadis in Iraq are Sunnis from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), and even as they pretend that The Surge Is Working (while simultaneously planning to stay in Iraq forever to prop up the government they installed because it wouldn’t last fifteen minutes without them), they seem to be rather quiet about what Al Qaeda is doing in Afghanistan.
This is because things really aren’t going that well in Afghanistan:
A White House assessment of the war in Afghanistan has concluded that wide-ranging strategic goals that the Bush administration set for 2007 have not been met, even as U.S. and NATO forces have scored significant combat successes against resurgent Taliban fighters, according to U.S. officials.
The evaluation this month by the National Security Council followed an in-depth review in late 2006 that laid out a series of projected improvements for this year, including progress in security, governance and the economy. But the latest assessment concluded that only “the kinetic piece” — individual battles against Taliban fighters — has shown substantial progress, while improvements in the other areas continue to lag, a senior administration official said.
This is actually a fairly mild assessment. If you go to the overseas media, the picture is much bleaker.
From The Guardian (h/t Down With Tyranny!):
Despite tens of thousands of Nato-led troops and billions of dollars in aid poured into the country, the insurgents, driven out by the American invasion in 2001, now control “vast swaths of unchallenged territory, including rural areas, some district centres, and important road arteries,” the Senlis Council says in a report released yesterday.
On the basis of what it calls exclusive research, it warns that the insurgency is also exercising a “significant amount of psychological control, gaining more and more political legitimacy in the minds of the Afghan people who have a long history of shifting alliances and regime change.”
It says the territory controlled by the Taliban has increased and the frontline is getting closer to Kabul– a warning echoed by the UN which says more and more of the country is becoming a “no go” area for western aid and development workers.
The council goes as far as to state: “It is a sad indictment of the current state of Afghanistan that the question now appears to be not if the Taliban will return to Kabul, but when… and in what form. The oft-stated aim of reaching the city in 2008 appears more viable than ever and it is incumbent upon the international community to implement a new strategic paradigm before time runs out.”
I remember the last time that Kabul fell to the Taliban after a foreign invader stopped propping up a puppet government. Except then they were part of the “mujahdeen”, and we liked them (and Osama, who was soon to be allied with them) because we were using them to drain the Soviet Union’s treasury and thus hasten its collapse, Grover-Norquist-style. Read this New York Times article from 1989, written during the waning days of the Soviet occupation. Replace the word “Soviet” with “American” and “guerrilas” with “Taliban” and you have the situation as it stands today.
Meanwhile, even as GOP/Media Complex tools like Tom Bevan of Real Clear(ly Republican) Politics tell the Democrats that The Surge Is Working So You Must Bend Over For Bush, Juan Cole reminds us that things aren’t really that rosy in Iraq:
The NYT reports that the Bush administration is giving up on most of its political benchmarks for Iraq. Apparently the most they think they can now hope for is that Iraq will ask the United Nations to authorize an extension of the US mandate in Iraq, that parliament will pass a budget, and that the Iraqi parliament will pass a law allowing mid-level former Baath officials to hold government jobs if they have not been shown to have committed crimes in the Saddam period. Powerful blocs in parliament such as the Sadrists oppose the UN extension of the US mandate in Iraq, and most Shiites and Kurds also oppose changes in the de-Baathification regulations. I wonder if even these scaled-down political expectations are realistic. PM Nuri al-Maliki is a minority prime minister with very little support in his own parliament, and only his Kurdish alliance even allows him to stay in power.
Again, if The Surge Is Working, why does al-Maliki need to have US troops around forever to prop him up?
Meanwhile, the place in Iraq that has had the biggest actual drop in violence and chaos recently is Basra, which had been an ungovernable mess as recently as three months ago. How did this occur? Well, instead of seeing a “surge” (read: escalation) in troop numbers, Basra actually saw the complete pullout of coalition (in this case British) troops, which resulted in a 90% drop in violence. Yes, you read that right: Ninety percent.
So, to sum up: We’ve lost Afghanistan, we never really had Iraq (in fact, our hold on Iraq is so tenuous that Bush plans to keep us there forever in order to prop up al-Maliki and whichever US-picked puppets succeed him), and the places in Iraq that are doing the best right now are the ones from which the Brits have pulled out.
Oh, and Al Qaeda’s leader, Osama bin Laden (who unlike Iraq’s late Saddam Hussein, really was the guy who attacked us on 9/11) is still free and still not in Iraq.
Any questions?
(Graphic published originally by azrainman under a Creative Commons license.)
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1?
PW!
Uno.
Hi PW!
Aargh!
Hi Betsy and Phoenix Woman.
I let them know, they should all be here soon.
Osama didn’t attack us on 911. No evidence of that. You are spouting talking points not proven conjectures.
We don’t know who was behind 911. We don’t even know who actually died in those planes.
Save Tucker!
and our press corps has completely forgotten about afghanistan, yes?
Afghanistan again, huh? Welcome to the Wild, Wild West.
Bob in HI
Any questions? yes what do we have to do to get the media to cover this story?
SanderO @ 8
One has to wonder why Osama’s FBI most wanted page does not mention either attack (’90’s or ‘01) on the WTC.
TexBetsy @ 10
Pretty much so, yes.
SanderO @ 8
We’ve been conned. It is really that simple.
Really.
I think Osama is in the closet but only Larry Flynt knows for sure.
smapdi @ 15
Exactly.
LS @ 18
Sorry, I was a little to brief. I was just trying to point out that those two statements dont agree one hundred percent.
SanderO:
If Osama didn’t plan them, why is he taking credit for them?
LS and friends of the tinfoil hat association, of which I am only a nominal member: OK, then who did it?
Iraq didn’t attack us on 9/11.
Iran didn’t attack us on 9/11.
Syria didn’t attack us on 9/11.
North Korea didn’t attack us on 9/11.
Afghanistan didn’t attack us on 9/11.
France didn’t attack us on 9/11.
1,670 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Phoenix Woman and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Remember that right after the Soviets got their asses kicked the hell outta Afghanistan they had a bit of a “regime change” themselves. But let’s look at the surreal nightmare we’re in right now…Saddam was Dick Cheney’s boy, the Taliban were our corporate “freedom fighters”, Musharraf is Bush’s George Washington and the Carlyle Group is a subsidiary of the Ben Laden family. What the fuck have they been puttin’ in our water for the last 40 years??!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION AND YOU BETTER HAVE MY BACK!!
PW – You said it even better. But then again, who is to say but that the Osama family is raking in mega billions in new oil profits as a result of this all.
Opium is the key Al Quieda stoped Opium in Afghanistan but we can’t?
Al Quieda realized that Opium would give rival tribes real money that could make them a threat. Real money buys guns, pays for troops, greases palms at border crossings, convinces peope to look the other way.
Now that Al Quieda is in trouble they are back in the business. Its to late to do anything now.
Richmond @ 21
Don’t know! Most of the so-called 19 were Saudi, Egyptian, and Yemeni. There are reports that some of them were mis-identified. There was not a single Afghani or Iraqi or Iranian involved. That much we know.
Who knows???
What do Nazis and the Bin Laden family have in common? They were both long time business partners with the Bushie family.
speaking of Iraq …..
Stop Blackwater Investigation “IMMEDIATELY”
from Huff Po by The Huffington Post News Editors
The State Department’s acerbic top auditor wasn’t happy when Justice Department officials told one of his aides to leave the room so they could discuss a criminal investigation of Blackwater Worldwide, the contractor protecting U.S. diplomats in Iraq.
The episode reveals the badly strained relationship between Bush administration officials over the probe into whether Blackwater smuggled weapons into Iraq that could have gotten into insurgents’ hands.
LS @ 22
However, it kind of looks like Saudi Arabia may have attacked us on 9/11…
Sorry, folks, but Bush/Israel didn’t blow up the Pentagon or the Twin Towers. Or are you saying that the 08/06/01 PDB entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Attack US” never existed, either?
You know what made the CIA sick to their collective guts about this?
Not only did Bush — Mister “Gimme Only Good News” Bush — blow off the August 6, 2001 PDB, but when the CIA sent agents to Crawford to warn him that an attack was imminent (because they realized he’d blown off the memo), his response to the agents was to blow them off as well, with a curt “You’ve covered your ass now” before sending them back to DC.
neurophius @ 29
Kinda looks that way…but…who are their friends?
Wahhabi?
You’re soaking in it.
Things Come Undone @ 25
I find it difficult to believe al Q or the Taliban really put a hurt on the opium trade considering how strong it appears to have been from the get go of our invasion.. It never stops, imo. The players may change but the cash cow continues.
neurophius @ 29
How can you say that when only 14 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi?
Our blackwater mercenaries come from lots of different nations.
Phoenix Woman @ 30
I never said Bush blew up the WTC or the Pentagon…just for the record…in case I’m lumped in there somewhere…
I have serious doubts about the official story, that’s all. I have an open mind, but I don’t believe the official story…especially considering what has happened since…not to mention the 2000 election and the PNAC “new Pearl Harbor”….I’m just trying to connect dots….
Somethin’ ain’t right.
LS @ 26
LS: Osama bin Laden and the Taliban have been buddies for the past two decades, ever since we were paying them to kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Remember that? He’s always had a friendly welcome there.
The Clinton Administration knew he was bad news a decade ago, and kept a file on him several feet thick. It was that file that outgoing National Security chief Sandy Berger presented to his Bush-appointed replacement Condoleeza Rice, telling her that “you will be spending more time on this [problem] than any other.”
And Condi blew him off.
Eureka Springs @ 33
Al Quieda was publicly for this I agree in private they probably ignored it, amoung themselves.
But for rival tribes zero tolerance no state tolerates rival power bases to itself and opium can certainly buy you rival power status.
I think the story is that AQ wharehoused opium because it was a drug on the market (i.e., the price had dropped because of too much supply. Plans were to release it when prices rebounded but then U.S. invaded. AQ used opium to finance itself; no way they would purge the country of it.
The way to solve the opium problem is for countries to import it legally for medical use, but Big Pharma put the kaibosh on that.
Phoenix Woman @ 37
*G*….I’m just tryin’ to stay….invisible…I know nothing…(like Schultz)….
I agree with all things that bring light to all things….
I know one thing…Bandar Bush…is an interesting character..
9/11 was a very traumatic event. The Bush Administration tried to stymie any meaningful investigation into its sloppy performance on counterterrorism in the months before the attack. This includes the deeply flawed 9/11 Commission. I don’t see, however, a conspiracy, except for a political CYA one.
As I usually argue in such cases, Bush and company can be stupid or conspiratorial but not both. I opt for stupid. Conspiracies take a certain level of competence that this Administration has never shown.
Where does he take credit for the attacks?
I have seen several vids attributed to OBL and I don’t believe it is him on the vids. Can you provide a citation?
Do you remember when there were “small” attacks/bombings in the ME and so forth an all sorts of groups would claim credit for them? Which one did it?
Even if he DID claim it, I’d like to see more proof of how he did it.
I’m not convinced he did it.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 23
Bro, I got yer back better than Larry Craig backstage at a Backstreet Boyz concert.
(in a purely figurative way of course…ahem)
Again, if Bin Laden didn’t plan them, a) why is he taking the credit and b) how does he know so much about them?
From the Times of India (hardly a Bush/CIA dupe) May 24, 2006:
Okay, so what’s up with Lott????? !!
Prince Bandar did not provide financial help to the hijackers either.
There were a few Suspicions when the Bush administration blocked the release of a 28-page section of a congressional report on the attacks believed to focus on terror funding in Saudi Arabia. It was only 28 pages.
Has Bush ever been right about anything? Has Bush ever sucseded at anything? Why are the Democrats backing Bush with his track record when they refuse to end the war?
I will support the eventual Democratic Presidential nominee but Nancy and Harry have to go. Only antiwar pro healthcare Democrats are getting my support.
Two alternative explanations on Lott:
1) He is planning to join a lobbyist group before the new law takes effect that would require him to wait two years.
2) He’s been engaged in a secret homosexual relationship with a young guy that’s about to have the cover blown off.
Of course- BOTH may be true.
OBL hated invaders. He didn’t want them in Arabia, he didn’t want them in any arab lands. So he attacked US and western installations. or supported the attacks.
I’m with him about getting our asses out of the ME and most places around the world.
You think we should have fleets all over the place… bases in 193 countries and locations around the world?
Hugh @ 41
The piece in this I keep coming back to, however, is the absence of data on an actual plane attacking the pentagon (the wings issue) or a list of who died in that particular plane attack. That, even more than the 3rd tower issue at WTC is what keeps my mind going off in 3 directions.
As I recall, Reid has a bill before the senate that would restrict funding for Iraq to money to bring the troops home..
I certainly don’t think that the dems are paragons of courage- but they sometimes try to do the right thing and should get support when they do. The anti dem hatred is sometimes out of control in my opinion.
I don’t think Bush was behind 911, but that doesn’t mean that ex CIA types with access INSIDE the US government did not do 911.
Cui bono?
rwcole @ 48
Frankly I see him a more of a serial hetero- guy. And I bet if Hustler is in on it it is some prostitution ringy thingy.
SanderO @ 42
He directly did so here (edited to comply with fair-use laws):
He reiterated this again in May of 2006 (as I’ve already posted at #44), in the course of explaining what most of us who’ve actually been following the case knew: That Zacharias Moussaoui had almost nothing to do with the hijackings.
Hugh @ 41
I don’t think Bush personally (by design) had a clue about what actually happened on 9/11. I do think that although it “appears” that the Administration operates with a degree of incompetence on one level…isn’t it interesting what they have actually “accomplished”, including the avoidance of any opposition successfully stopping them….all since the election of 2000. That is not incompetence….it is something else.
SanderO @ 49
Rummy knew the Saudis needed to get the US infidels out of the country’s mil bases once the first GW ended. The occupation of Iraq seemed to be the answer, as affirmed by todays news.
The key was to get things going and in that sense, all the combatants were on the same page.
Freeing the Saudis from the US presence was instrumental to Royal continuity — All the players stood to benefit. Except Saddam who sealed his fate with those darn scuds.
I’d guess that Lott is Bi—but that kind of guessing is perilous.
Richmond- Think of the wings as giant bags of fuel, not as a solid.
Loo Hoo. @ 45
Wants to become a lobbyist, according to Olberman. If he quits the Senate before Dec. 31, he will only have to wait a year; after that, he would have to wait 2 years.
The conspiracy theory we were fed by the 911 commission is mostly rubbish. Their evidence standards are in the toilet.
They had no explanation for the collapse of wtc*7… and no planes found at pentagon or PA.
No black boxes in any of them… ha?
OBL has not been seen live since before 911.
Hugh @ 41
I think they’re incredibly competent. That is, if you accept that their goal is to steal as much of our tax dollars as possible, largely by creating conditions for perpetual war, which is the easiest way for them to do it. And they literally don’t have to put any skin in the game.
People have been warning America about these Constitution-haters for a long, long time, yet no one ever seems to listen.
Why do I get this strong deja vu feeling? Propelled back 35 or 40 years and channeling Vonnegut?
Heckuva day, don’t you think?
Lott quits.
Hastert walks out the door in 2 hours, doesn’t wait for the end of the year.
And DeadEye’s ticker needs a jumpstart.
Any chance these things are related?
Ahem.
rwcole @ 57
smapdi @ 58
And the missing passenger list, and the lack of video evidence let out, and the REALLY small hole in the Pentagon (one of my friend’s kids died there so something happened)?
Cheney didn’t croak- just got his heart shocked back into rythm.
Things Come Undone @ 47
I said this yesterday. The media’s view of Bush is that, having been wrong about everything to do with Iraq for 5 years, they figure that the odds are against him being wrong again. This is the same logic that says that if you roll 1,825 snake eyes in a row, you can’t possibly roll it a 1,826th time. Scary that people think this way, isn’t it?
Just one.
Where’s the war czar and what’s he been doing?
Okay, that’s two.
These guys have done a very competent assault on the constitution and managed to move lots of cash to their people.
Bush is dumb, but the people in the background are as sharp as tacks and he plays dumb and incompetent.
Don’t be fooled.
You know, if someone said Lott was involved in hookers and all….no one would really care….JMHO
If someone said Lieberliar loved Collins….hmmmmm
If someone said Pelosi loved Bush…..HMMMM
I mean, honestly, which scenario could really turn DC upside down…really…
A Senator? What intrigue with a Senator would really matter….really…they are all a bunch of old coots….
But…if they nail a female Senator with some man…..all hayel will break loose….I hope that is not what Rove was referring to.
Hugh
Aha- the world famous Monte Carlo fallacy at work again…..
The Monte Carlo fallacy is great for the abstract world of probabilities- in the REAL world if you have 1,000 consecutive “heads” on a coin- there’s somethin wrong with the fuckin coin and the odds are way high that yer gonna get “heads” again.
PW…
Don’t believe anything the MSM tells you. It’s always laced with lies.
rwcole @ 57
americablog cautions on Lott rumor.
http://www.americablog.com/200…..rumor.html
rxbusa @ 63
Ice 9
Did you folks see the latest projections just posited by AP, about a half hour ago?
Ben Feller submitted this piece, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..wh/us_iraq
about a half hour ago… read between the lines for the not so deeply hidden truth…
and here’s the money line: “The agreement between Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki confirms that the United States and Iraq will hash out an “enduring” relationship in military, economic and political terms. Details of that relationship will be negotiated in 2008, with a completion goal of July, when the U.S. intends to finish withdrawing the five combat brigades sent in 2007″
JULY 2007?!?!?!?!?!
Golly gee, could this be, the start of another campaign to salvage the GOP from total annihilation (in the Lifton context) in the next election?
“Some of the people all of the time” has got to stop being “most of the voters most of the time.”
WAKE UP, AMERICA! Get your lazy-ass schlub friends AND FAMILY to get up off the couch and VOTE!!!
(I realize I’m preaching (singing out loud) to the enlightened choir here at the lake, but it must start somewhere;)
This is just one more ploy by the unforgivable, to salvage the unsalvagable, with the help of the gullible, enabled by the dispicable.
DON’T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH IT AGAIN!!!
SO, LET ME REPEAT,
Get your lazy-ass, (democratic shlubs like I once was) friends AND FAMILY to get up off the couch and VOTE!!!
More on Osama from Doug “Pericles” Muder’s seminal Kos diary, “Terrorist Strategy 101: A Quiz“:
rwcole @ 48
Excellent take.
rwcole @ 70
Exactly
nite folks.
night sandero
SanderO @ 61
Because he’s been in hiding since before then. (We haven’t seen Carlos the Jackal openly in public, either. Or Abu Nidal.) Being in hiding is necessary for him, as he runs a terrorist organization.
There was definitely some funny business about stock sales of the two airlines involved in 9/11. The activity was hundreds of times above normal for those kinds of trades; they turned profits of at least $2.5 million which was never collected…
All well-documented, and the 9/11 Commission basically ignored it.
LS @ 70
I don’t know what this is about. What did Rove say?
Rove? Thought it was Larry Flynt who was promisin a gooper scalp.
The tapes of OBL are probably frauds.
Don’t remember ever hearing of a sex scandal with a female senator or congresscritter. Maybe I just missed em. The media would love it if she was found with the whole football team- otherwise I think they prefer the Mano a mano stories.
Used to have a guy who prefered man on dog stories- but he’s gone. How’s it hangin Ricky?
neurophius @ 59
That would be too clean!
Osama is really Dick Cheney on stilts- and after a killer diet.
BTW—Lott’s a wannabe VP candidate…
But which “real” GOP candidate will he ride to vain and temporary glory??
How about Romney… unlimited money, phony to the core (THE VARMINTSLAYER!) and a another Ronnie Reagan, who co-opted the racists of the New Republican Party of the south, to gain his profane power base…
History doesn’t really repeat itself, everything outrageous we have seen already from the GOP in desperaton mode is just a lesser example of the one coming next…
Al Quaeda and the Taliban were on the ropes late in the fall of 2001.
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld saved them from oblivion by
(1) pulling out special forces and UAVs to get to work on Iraq;
(2) getting taken to the cleaners by the various Afghan warlords who
were “helping” us; and
(3) getting taken to the cleaners by the rug merchant in Islamabad.
The rest is history.
solai @ 83
He said that a certain female Senator is a fatally-flawed candidate.
how about this:
Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW
by Carol A. Valentine
Curator, Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
http://www.Public-Action.com
Copyright, October, 2001
May be reproduced for non-commercial purposes.
October 16, 2001– An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
“I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.
“It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people . . . ” Everyone familiar with the content of the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
http://www.Public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
knows bin Laden is telling the truth.
News of this Ummat interview was suppressed in the US. Between the time of its publication and October 7, the US apparently spent its time creating a fake “bin Laden” interview, using either a stand-in or morphing. Or was the fraud produced by the Brits, as a favor to the US? No, the Taliban Home Video was a ham-fisted effort. The Brits usually have more subtlety.
You can read about the US fraud, “The Taliban Home Video,” at
http://www.Public-Action.com/911/hvideo.html
The second bit on Osama from Doug “Pericles” Muder’s seminal Kos diary, “Terrorist Strategy 101: A Quiz“:
[PW adds: Like Iran.]
Those who saw Ol Trent goin ta the Clusterfuck ranch wearing a 500 dollar cowboy hat an lookin like a complete an total asshole know that there’s somethin strange about that boy.
Rayne @ 64
Guesses, ???
rwcole @ 84
Yeah, and it was supposed to be a Senator, or so he said last month. (I know a couple of folks who were pissed at him for making that statement, because they think that he scared off their target before they’d finished getting dirt on him.)
rwcole @ 94
you saying he’s more of a “back porch” kind a feller?
PW,
I am sorry I don’t believe that swill from the propaganda machine or whomever Mr Muder is getting his “facts” from.
Loo Hoo. @ 96
Things coming in threes, that’s my guess.
Love ta see Larry Flynt an Clusterfuck goin toe ta toe- course Clusterfuck would have to fight in a wheelchair.
Loo Hoo. @ 96
They all ate the same food?
Watch for Condi’s “historic” elevation to VP!
Anyone think she wouldn’t get confirmed?
SanderO @ 99
Your loss, Bush’s gain. Keep sticking your fingers in your ears.
rwcole @ 95
My gaydar is up. That is the only thing that would screw over Trent in ole miss.
punaise @ 98
heeheeeheee
who is Doug “Pericles” Muder?
JEP @ 103
I’m watchin’. Could be…or Cheenee, will be fine and back in the 4th Estate tomorrow….
OK – Here’s the theory—-Lott leaves and Denny realizes that it means that the story of his affair with Ol Trent is bout to hit the front pages so he boogies and he calls Cheney to let him know that the story of the little parties in the cloakroom are about to hit the front pages- so Cheney’s ticker starts missin every other beat an he has ta go in and get jump started.
Like that?
rwcole @ 87
I thought Steele was the one who “liked” puppies?
Who is sticking their fingers in their ears ms PW?
You are lapping up the propaganda like it’s warm milk.
Phoenix Woman @ 30
And so whatz with the wingnuts going off about the poll results that 2/3 of Americans think that govt officials had intel about the attack they ignored? Seems pretty clear to me …no complicity, no tinfoil hats needed.
rwcole @ 109
Now what would give that crazy idea?!?!?
Doesn’t everyone wear V-neck sweaters and slacks on fishing trips?
Who said Bin Ladin determined to strike in the US? The CIA? You believe the CIA?
Didn’t the CIA create OBL? He was their man wasn’t he? Is that how they knew how he would react to the US interventions around the moslem world?
Where did they get the story from?
Let’s see the evidence.
Chatter eh?
It’s easy to think that Clusterfuck had somethin to do with 9/11 cause:
A) The PNAC guys predicted that it would take a disaster to ready the american people for Iraq and beyond.
B) He benefited greatly from the attacks.
But seems that there is only that very circumstantial evidence to go on.
rwcole @ 109
lol
9/11 conspiracy theorists have never proven their case. On the other side, there is abundant evidence about who was involved and how it happened. And that the Bush Administration wanted to avoid investigations that would make it look bad.
rwcole @ 109
Two points!
Hastert looks unusually fit in that picture.
rxbusa @ 111
Intel about the attacks being ignored is not the same thing as those folks who perceive that the US or Israel took an active role in facilitating the attacks.
By ignoring or minimizing the intel, it did allow for the “Pearl Harbor” moment that many of the PNAC signatories may have hoped for and gave them the opening to fake the intel to invade Iraq. But that would be errors of omission (ignoring the intel) rather than crimes of commission (actively bombing the Pentagon or WTC)
Whoa, SanderO. Chill and apologize.
Loo Hoo. @ 95
I’ll hazard a guess — the coincidence is a kind of letdown/fatigue — sort of a mission accomplished moment.
They’ve run the neocon playbook through the endgame to a permanent new US base in the ME. It is the culmination of the Republican vision to emplace the strategic US presence where it can control the most wealth.
Ironically it is bankrupting the country so there is no life left in the Republican party to carry it forward into tomorrow. The Republicans have just crossed the finish line and now… they’re finished!
There are no 911 conspiracy theorists.. there is a 911 truth movement which wants to know the truth.
We were told ONE conspiracy theory because there were 4 planes so we think at least 4 people were involved… and that was upped to 19.
But we don’t even know if those 19 were on the planes.
Where is the photo evidence from security cameras of THEM board THOSE planes. It doesn’t exist!
Now that we know more about Clusterfuck, his ignoring intelligence estimates is just par for the course.
He sees the word “intelligence” and realizes that the report is not for him.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence— no wait—how did that thing go?
What am to apologize for? I am not trying to attack anyone here. I am pointing out that the 911 story is a myth and not fact and it is too easy to believe propaganda.
The Bush administration has been curiously less than interested in finding OBL. It’s almost like the two families go way back together. I mean, it’s not like OBL and GWB mutually benefited from 911 and what transpired in the aftermath, right?
bonkers @ 62
I agree with you. You can make these guys make sense if you completely change the motives. Iraq is a wonderful success…if you are a Halliburton or Blackwater stockholder. I think they have achieved exactly what they set out to do.
rwcole @ 119
If your theory is true, he was likely getting a lot of extra “exercise” when they were up there casting their lines, so to speak.
punaise @ 98
rwcole @ 115
You can convict on circumstantial evidence.
rwcole @ 125
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? That one?
SanderO @ 113
SanderO,
You may not remember this but there have been more than one situation over the years when a “CIA asset” has turned on the CIA. Think Saddam. Think Noreiga. Yes, think bin Laden. And there have been others. Often it was because when first used by the CIA, the asset was fighting a higher priority enemy. Like when Saddam was fighting Iran. Or bin Laden and the mujahdin were fighting the Soviet Union. The world changed and the person the CIA (and the rest of the US Gov’t) had been funding was no longer fighting or enemy but became our “enemy”
good nite for real.
tomorrow’s another day.
Loo Hoo and SanderO
Bin Laden may be real, but he wouldn’t be what he is without our neocons to give him his convenient power.
The legends of time are always identified by their enemies.
Bin Laden isn’t a fantasy character, but he is a walking, breathing strawman of historic proportions. What he bacame is due to his enemies needing him to become that, not his own people.
They will only suffer.
Even worse than the rest of us.
For the first time in the history of the USA, an election was decided by SCOTUS…UBL sent Saudi/Egyptian/Yemeni attackers to attack the US (and we know that, because they found the passport of one of the hijackers within hours that floated out of the exploding airplane and survived intact on the streets of NYC), so that the US would attack Afghanistan (where OBL was based), and then we would attack Iraq, because they had WMD’s (which they didn’t)….and the Administration had to lie about the WMD’s and expose a CIA agent working on non-proliferation of nukes….and here we are years later with a treaty that Congress is cut out of, to keep troops there forever…on permanent bases and the largest Embassy in the world (BTW, who and when was it designed)…and…we have lost Habeas Corpus…they are spying on us all….and they have renamed the country, “The Homeland”, and, and, and…they are torturing and rendering people to secret prisons all over the world….
Everything is just fine. The Administration never knew anything about anything….they are incompetent.
I don’t think the CIA ever let’s go.
Former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill says President Bush sought to invade Iraq from the start of his presidency, in his book and on a 60 Minutes interview.
SanderO @ 114
It was the CIA, but, IIRC, Dick Clarke authored the 6 Aug PDB and he was/is no friend of Shrubco…
OK, this is where I start opining that the Martians were behind 9/11 but that they were being secretly manipulated by the Neptunians or possibly the Kreeg from the planet Vorcast. It’s so difficult to tell them a part, you know. It could have been the one or the other. Both have a common anti-Earth agenda.
rwcole @ 125
You go to war with the Secretary of Defense that you have,
not the one that you might wish for.
Gosh darn.
What LS said.
rxbusa @ 128
Exactly. OK everyone…rinse, repeat. And repeat. And repeat.
Everything is so clear now, isn’t it?
This holds true when speaking of Conglomerate-owned Media, and “centrist” Democrats.
SanderO @ 122
Ya know, I’ve done an awful lot of flying over the years for my jobs and both before and after 9/11, I don’t recall seeing security cams focused on each and every gate filming the boarding of the planes. May have been there but if so, they must be fairly unobtrusive.
I think that the neptunian theory is full of holes.
Hugh @ 139
Let’s get Russert to ask Kucinich about this.
It was always about the bases…
Speaking of bankrupting the country…
Fannie and Freddie pullback would devastate economy
What? Unplug the American Dream?
Oh, They’re Paulson’s Playmates…
But are they really unsinkable?
No room in the lifeboat
What could possibly go wrong?
Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae back in the news
The problem is that the creative financial products are peeing in the pool and will be poisoning the mix for months and months to come. Those AAA ratings are about to pancake along with all the other make-believe securities the big banks are repatriating as their book value diminishes by half.
Freddie and Fannie are going to the woodshed and soon.
Kucinich prefers to talk to people who have big knockers bout the elevation of his head. Safety measure I suspect.
Eureka Springs @ 146
Timmeh’s probably too busy brushing up on his favorite Bible verses.
Sandman @ 138
Yea. And I said it before the fucker was appointed. People knew he wanted to complete the job daddy didn’t finish.
(sorry for bad attitude but I still have one)
BTW, where WAS Bush when JFK Jr.s plane went down? Cross my bones and tap me on the skull, mystery abounds everywhere but in the memories of the guilty.
And I was in Phi Kappa Sigma,(skull and bones?)so call me crazy, but a Gore JFK ticket would have been insurmountable.
Now, what does everyone think about LieberJoe’s VP spot?
I’m one of those that believes we think Bush is incompetent because we just don’t understand the objective. Look at it differently and you realize that he is amazingly successful. He wanted a war to expand presidential powers…he got it. He (and especially Cheney) have made their friends wealthy beyond anything imaginable. He ships billions of US dollars to Iraq, and lo-and-behold billions disappear. The list is endless. He has had many successes if you look at it differently.
No question that the PNAC was pushin for the invasion of Iraq as early as Clinton’s term- and that GW Clusterfuck had already calculated that invading pissant countries was a good move politically based on the Thatcher story..
Which still leaves us a little short of him dreamin up an executing 9/11.
Where is the photo evidence from security cameras of THEM board THOSE planes. It doesn’t exist!
SanderO, you’re right. If this security camera info existed, seems like we’d have seen it over and over and over…
We did get the individual pictures lickitysplitly.
Gore fucked up big time in pickin Lieverdoodle- and that was not his only mistake.
JEP @ 150
Uh huh… Kristol already made the pitch…
(Don’t get me started!)
solai @ 152
Yes, yes, and yes. Evil successes though…I so totally agree that the stratergy has been brilliantly executed….and that is what is scary.
All..by…design.
Phoenix Woman @ 94
Reads like a PNAC strategy to collapse the US gov. so private companies can fill the void replicating the soviet model.
marymccurnin @ 150
Thank goD you do. If only about 50 million more Americans would follow your lead, we’d bury these neocon bastards forever. (figuratively speaking of course)
JEP @ 151
ooooooooooooooo…..
So them 9/11 assassins are sittin somewhere with Jack Ruby an Lee Harvey throwin back a few beers an laughin their asses off?
solai @ 151
Did you see the latest Vanity Fair – Billions Over Baghdad.
Loo Hoo. @ 154
They did release security camera video of Atta, Shaheen, etal… from Logan as they passed through security checkpoints… It was presented at the 9/11 hearings…
I think one must BEGIN with the fact that Clusterfuck is incompetent- he may be evil too, but he is definately incompetent. Read O’ Neil for his take on his first meeting with president dumbass.
LS @ 157
Sorry, I don’t buy the Intelligent Design theory. Bush IS less than competent, but folks around him know when to jump in and take advantage of the chaos in his wake.
These messes weren’t planned — they Evolved.
rwcole @ 161
It is questionable. You go investigate it.
Hey, it’s me, that evil deluded person who persists in believing the mounds and mounds of evidence that show that not only did Osama bin Laden engineer the 9/11 attacks, but is happy as a clam that Bush invaded and occupied Iraq, as this has been fabulous for Al Qaeda’s recruitment drives.
In fact, the whole reason Bin Laden finally stepped forward in the fall of 2004 to take credit for (and not just praise) the 9/11 attacks is because he wanted to scare Americans into voting for George W. Bush, who he knew would keep us in Iraq — as opposed to Kerry, who Osama feared would have had us out of Iraq by 2006 at the latest.
marymccurnin @ 150
change “didn’t” to “couldn’t” and you will have a more accurate picture of our current conundrum… a lot of real experts knew it couldn’t be done, and thus the utter failure of the Iraq war project (except that Cheney’s and Prince’s and associated companies are raking in the no-bid dough, which to them may just be worth the 6000 American lives that 9-11 and the war in Iraq represent…)
But, as for the rule of law, lets not forget title 18, section 371…
It may be the fulcrum on which all of this intrigue is eventually balanced…
This may sound rather strange, particularly in this conversation, but…
I don’t think it matters anymore who or what attacked the WTC. What matters is how that attack was used to really destroy the US. That destruction was undoubtedly an inside job by our own government, and the cabal responsible for that needs to be held accountable. “Brought to justice”, as the perp-in-chief himself would say. That cabal has not only destroyed our government, killed millions abroad, and threatened the world with weapons of mass destruction…it is also responsible for the coming implosion of our economy.
Folks can “but…Clinton” all they want, but getting laid does not approach these crimes perpetrated upon the world. These guys need to go down.
Eureka Springs @ 162
My other favorite scam was when the bank in Iraq was robbed. How stupid do they think we are?
Don’t answer that.
I have lived through many messes of the Clusterfuck sort with a shitty chief executive. It’s not an anomoly- it’s what happens- every fuckin time….
The guy can’t direct people- he can’t analyze data, he doesn’t know a “plan” from a race form, and he can’t judge people or their competence beyond them kissin his ass.
Under those circumstances- EVERYTHING will go wrong- and it has.
Shadowstalker @ 169
Ain’t that the truth…
LS
MMMM— maybe not.
Peterr @ 165
This has nothing to do with Intelligent Design theory. Bush knows nothing. He is a mouthpiece. The plan to re-arrange the Middle East is well-documented and authored by the players in his Administration.
Shadowstalker @ 169
Now that has the ring of truth.
rwcole @ 155
Oh, Lieberman. That, apparently, was forced on Gore by Tipper and some of Gore’s soon-to-be former DLC friends. (Gore was a founding member, but started growing apart from the main DLCer a bit over a decade ago; Lieberman, on the other hand, has always been their darling boy.) Gore recognized that Lieberman was the boat anchor that dragged him down, which is why he backed Dean in 2003.
Phoenix Woman @ 167
Mounds and mounds???? What mounds?
neokneme, what bothers me about this is that the government and the Fed have no problem pumping tens of billions of dollars into financial markets to “stabilize” them. Yet they stood by for years letting the subprime bubble happen. Where was their priority on stabilization then?
They could see this coming as easily as I and many others could, but they only act to save investors who really should have known better not the ordinary Americans who really couldn’t be expected to.
Fern @ 175
I’ll drink to that.
solai @ 152
They are not sustainable succeses though there is a reason why people are against corporate welfare. The wrong people get paid money for doing things that would not make money in the market without taxpayer help. Iraq is never going to pay for itself, though Bush is getting paid.
I agree short term yes Bush 2 has made money. But Bush 1’s Carlyle group is suffering from the SubPrime crises that Bush 2 and Greenspan created.
10 to 1 leverage on subprime mortgages that is not smart thats evidence of a gambling problem that is cause for an intervention.
If Tipper could FORCE Lieberdoodle on Gore- then ya have ta wonder what sort of prez he would have made…did she have a gun?
Hugh @ 177
Ain’t that a head scratcher. I’m thinking it was to liquify the the economy to keep the jones at bay. But here we are. Jonesing big time.
rwcole @ 181
Precisely.
Peterr @ 165
One of the most decorated U.S. military Generals of all-time, and Gen Eisenhower seem to disagree with that assesment.
While they can’t control every factor, hence the evolving, I do think there is A LOT of planning behind much of what we’re dealing with today.
Eureka Springs @ 162
Except that Bush is the biggest sock-puppet president in history… anyone who thinks he possesses the genius to cobble together this incredible series of events is delusional, if not certifiable.
“THE POWERS THAT BE” have many pawns, but few of the real “deciders” will show their faces to the public because Louis XVI and MS Antoinette put them all in perpetual “self-protect” mode and all our modern-day Metternichs continually promulgate their condescending agendas.
The Bushes are nothing more or less than “wannabe” royals, four centuries too late for their profane agenda.
“Let them eat yellowcake” has replaced the more arcane version of that arrogant cliche.
LS @ 136
You’re right. All we can do is
calm down and elect good people. We need to educate people every way we can. If that doesn’t work, and it may not, then we seriously worry.
I think we’ll be okay.
rwcole @ 171
Oh, exactly. The reasons he’s got as far as he has:
1) Official Washington — the media as well as the various functionaries — has, as Atrios explained, been dominated by Republicans since 1969 onward, with only Carter and Clinton (both of whom were treated like trash) to leaven the lump.
2) The Republicans set out, per the dictates of former Nixon Treasury Secretary William Simon, to buy up, buy off or bully the media and educational institutions into toeing the right-wing line. The destruction of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 was a key moment. So was Rupert Murdoch’s buying Newt Gingrich for $4.5 million in exchange for Newt’s killing the laws that made it illegal for non-Americans to own US TV networks. (That’s how FOX News came to be.)
3) Bush and his buddies are so insulated by their money and the things that money can buy that they have had almost infinite leeway to screw up without seeing so much as a finger wagged in their faces, much less any actual pain (as in: “Can I afford to eat today?” pain).
marymccurnin @ 159
Ever wonder who pressed Gore to take on Lieberlier in the first place as VP? And, then Joe does everything he can to get Gore not elected……
passports *always* fall intact out of fireballs.
When I think about the 2000 election I often think about the Lieberdoodle/Cheney debate. Boy did Lieberdoodle hammer the Dickster?
At this point in time…I can only hope for a period where we regain some sense of equilibrium in this country, coupled with compassion, equal justice, and sanity…I hope it will happen in my lifetime. I dunno…maybe it is just a pipedream…
It is important to enjoy that which is beautiful in your life everyday…don’t let it go unnoticed or allow oneself to be destracted by all of this turmoil…that is how I feel…really. All we have is now. Now.
LS @ 174
My use of “intelligent design” and “evolved” was ironic. I find the various conspiracy theories here to be just as credible as the intelligent design nonsense.
Option 1: Bush (and his cronies) planned and executed the WTC/Pentagon attacks in order to make their friends rich, instigate a war, and all those other things, and did so in a manner so wily, so competent, and so brilliant that no one can pin it on them; or
Option 2: Bush is incompetent, Bin Laden did indeed plan those attacks, and BushCo’s reactions made such a mess of things that all kinds of others found ways to exploit the situation to suit their own advantage, from Hamas to Halliburton.
Occam’s Razor says it’s Option 2.
Hugh @ 178
They didn’t stand by, they enabled it by busting down the barriers between Banks and the Financial market, in that the Banks could bundle the mortgages and put them up for bids… Previously that was solely the Banks’ sphere… Coupled with defunding the SEC and deregulating much of the oversight of the Government, we ended up with the mess we’re in…
rwcole @ 181
leiberman HAD to be vice president.
who else was going to stop the ‘filth’ of rock and roll?
Loo Hoo. @ 185
Electing good people is all well and “good” but then Steny Hoyer sends them on an AIP*C funded edu-junket over the summer to the ME to get their heads screwed on counter clockwise, and well, there we are.
Speakin of Israel, What happened to Big Mitch?
Electing good people is all well and “good” but then Steny Hoyer sends them on an AIP*C funded edu-junket over the summer to the ME to get their heads screwed on counter clockwise, and well, there we are.
hey that’s so so so unfair.
palestinians just LUVVV their prison walls.
Phoenix Woman @ 167
Checkmate.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 194
Tipper. I remember her sitting in front of some committee around 1970ish complaining about the filth itself. That is the reason I never fully trusted Al.
Peterr @ 192
Hmmmm….I vote for door number 1. The reason being….everything they have managed to achieve ever since, plus, the plethora of evidence…including the unprecedented fall of 3 steel frame buildings on the same day in history…the lack of evidence in the Pentagon wreckage…the thermite evidence….the war games on 9/11….the FEMA prepositioning on the docks on 9/11…the witnesses to the numerous explosions on 9/11…the credible evidence presented by the 9/11 scholars….just to name a few off the top of my head. Until those are addressed to my satisfaction…my personal jury is out.
Tipper. I remember her sitting in front of some committee around 1970ish complaining about the filth itself. That is the reason I never fully trusted Al.
didn’t frank zappa take ‘the tipper’ on?
Couldn’t it be option 3?
(The whole thing was engineered by some third party group of contractors and arranged for by someone outside of govt)—or
the martians
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 201
My memory is cloudy about that one. I hope he did.
Fern @ 132
No it’s “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.
But it’s a much misused concept. There can be negative evidence. For example if one looks under a street lamp repeatedly for you lost car keys it is evidence that they aren’t under the street lamp. Or when you search for WMD’s all over Iraq and don’t find any, that’s actually evidence that they don’t exist in Iraq.
But if you don’t bother to look in the first place…that’s not evidence. Either positive or negative.
But there is a lot of evidence that the Truther Community ignores, or special pleads away. There is a vast literature, for example, in the Materials Science community that has discussed the 9/11 attacks and the collapse of the WTC structures that is NEVER cited in the Truther websites or literature. It’s odd that they utterly ignore this evidence, often taken directly from the scientific studies on the WTC remains.
These studies show that one doesn’t need temperatures to reach anywhere near the melting point to cause structural failure from bending or heat forces. They show that the mass above the crash points was more than sufficient to cause the collapse. That the videos and photographs show that there was no evidence of simultaneous explosive charges below the collision point…and no evidence of explosives there. There was no evidence of thermite or other explosive residues in the air or bulding samples studied by UC Davis.
The list of ignored studies by the Truthers goes on, and on.
The TRUTHERS argue that the Scientists involved in these studies are simply part of an even larger conspiracy. So they MUST be ignored.
And where are the hundreds of individuals who must have been involved in planting the explosives and cutting through the supportive steel infrastructure throughout the WTC buildings, or those who would have seen them. Yes! Those phenomenal demolitions of buildings we see on TV require months of prepreparation…cutting through the trusses and other structural components to allow the explosives to take out the few remaining critical supporting units. These aren’t exactly places where civilian or business life can go on as usual. It’s a DE-COnstruction Site.
Yet no one seemed to notice these major operations going on at all.
And then the bozos were so stupid that, although they planned the hijacking of the aircraft, viewed by thousands of eyewitnesses crashing into the WTC Towers…They weren’t able to detonate their charges until hours later…and then they blew up a completely wrong building that hadn’t been struck by a plane at all. Some great planning there! Yet these are the same mysterious forces that were able to detonate charges so precisely that they were able to set off their first charges to go off at precisely the level that the planes crashed?
rwcole @ 202
Door #3, sans Martians.
I wonder if the zealots,
fighting in the Middle East
Understand, a real Holy Warrior fights for Peace.
…not with rockets, bombs and guns, but with education, food and love.
These scenes of death we see each day,
is blood-spent wrong, lives lost in vain.
And the only beneficiaries of all this bloody fear, are billionaire oil tycoons,
whose fortunes grow each year.
The evil blamed on the United States,
is really everywhere,
dressed in ties and business suits,
sitting in their leather chairs.
There is no single person,
on whom to lay the blame,
if there was, surely don’t you think that we would know his name?
It’s not just Bush, or Cheney, or anyone we know,
It is the sum of greed and fear, the names were hidden long ago.
Yet all together they remain, a scourge on all mankind.
Someday, maybe, we will have
a Peace that will abide.
LS @ 177
Not counting his repeated boastings of having done it, there’s the simple facts that:
1) Osama’s been trying to bring back the Caliphate in all its medieval glory
2) He helped bring down the Soviet Union by pinning them down in Afghanistan until their economy could no longer sustain it
3) He wants to see the US be brought to ruin in Iraq just as the Soviet Union was brought to ruin in Afghanistan.
This is all explained (with quotes from Bin Laden and other Islamic figures) in Doug Muder’s piece Terrorist Strategy 101, portions of which I cited here earlier this evening. (There are other cites, but I’ve already posted a novel’s worth of stuff here from Muder’s piece and other articles, and people are already getting sick of seeing the tinfoil crinklings, even when they’re being debunked.)
Note that things have changed somewhat since November of 2004, when Muder’s essay was originally written; back then, Muder thought that the US economy was strong enough to sustain a long-term war in Iraq. Considering the destruction of America’s manufacturing base and the tottering financial industry (or “Big Shitpile” as Atrios calls it), it’s becoming more and more likely that Iraq will indeed be our Afghanistan, in that it will spell the end of our current form of government. The problem is: What will replace it?
Peterr/LS
Option 3
Various elements including OBL correctly calculated odds of various stimulus/response to maximize their ends and or profits.
For example: OBL’s stated goal was to goad the US into an untennable Mideast position.
Pretty frickin effective I would say.
When you consider that a $10-25 paramilitary operation has resulted in US expenditures of hundreds of BILLIONS and loss of American life in excess of the original attacks (not to mention the ultimate alQ goals of weakened US influence)
Not coincidence, and not an accident.
Planning.
NeoCons and mercinaries – in bed since Iran-Contra.
They have just refined their roles.
Lack of attention to alQ pre-911 – maybe not planned, but not entirely the result of incompetence.
Just as Grover Norquist’s desired end of gutting the Federal Government has been accomplished by this Administration of Departmental heads who do not beleive in their departmental missions, ignoring alQ allowed the neo-cons to propel US forces to Iraq.
CTuttle @ 192
But that’s what I don’t understand. They are all supposed to be into financial market stability but they allow a crisis to occur that was easily preventable and that they could see coming for between 2 to 5 years. It’s just mindboggling.
Loo Hoo. @ 154
I recall photos of several of the hijackers passing through the security check through in Boston.
Watertiger is Upstairs!!!!
I have plenty of tin foil on hand. In fact I keep it on hand ‘just in case.’
but as for 9-1-1.
there’s lots of fishy business going on.
I dont know what and i dont need to know what and i dont want to know.
but something fishy that doesn’t meet the eye.
I recall photos of several of the hijackers passing through the security check through in Boston.
after the photos and names were printed there were articles in the toronto star of those people in the middle east saying , ‘hey i’m alive.’
some anyway
mack @ 208
Only Halliburton and W’s oil interests have really benefited. OBL has not really benefited. Everyone…everyone else has lost…All W and Cheney lost is popularity…
Phoenix Woman @ 187
News Media readership/viewership has been going down the whole time. By supporting a rightwing message these jokers have been killing newsmedia profits. Imagine what Newsmedia profits would be if the same percentage of people read the newspaper watched the news as did in the 50’s.
Sure cable is taking away viewers or are they? During the writters strike you would expect the news ratings to go up I’m betting KO goes way up the rest not so much.
LS @ 191
LS, maybe I still believe in fairy tales, but I think the good guys are going to win. I can’t wait for the primaries to be over so we can hear Guiliani debate, say, Edwards.
I can’t wait for the general election debates!
Things Come Undone @ 38
The Taliban did reduce opium SALES…but they actually never reduced crop production.
Essentially they tried to place it under their control, rather than under the disparate control of the Warlords. By trying to place it under their authority they could reap the tax benefits directly while weakening rivals. Thus they could keep the prices high, while exporting smaller amounts.
There were several cases of opium smuggling traced to cargo the Taliban owned national airline before Clinton and the UN terminated their flights as part of the sanctions placed on them for sheltering bin Laden. The Taliban started storing huge quantities of surplus opium paste in warehouses at that point.
Peterr @ 192
For those who don’t know about William of Ockham, the guy who gave us “Occam’s Razor”: He was a medieval English Franciscan friar and logician, who contributed much to the intellectual seedbed that would form the basis for the Renaissance a century later.
Occam’s Razor is the principle that given a choice of several explanations for a given thing, the simplest and most logical one is generally the correct one. Or, as William himself stated it:
Things Come Undone @ 215
MSNBC gave the game away when they cancelled Donahue’s short-lived show even though it had the best ratings of any MSNBC show and had a rapidly growing audience. They replaced him with Joe Scarborough, who took something like two years to approach the ratings Donahue got straight out of the gate.
At some point they have to choose between subsidizing right-wing propaganda and actually doing what’s best for their company.
Phoenix Woman @ 219
Sounds like we would have a shareholder lawsuit. If we were shareholders I invest opposite the GOP.
I don’t think corporate welfare profits are sustainable. Other GOP companies like Wallmart are immoral.
140 Hugh says: November 26th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Heh! You got it, Hugh.
Some people just keep picking up Occam’s Razor at the wrong end and then wondering why their fingers are bloody.
Hugh @ 209
The 2001,2,3 recession impact had the potential to disrupt the continuity of the BusChen regime, much as it does now. My sense is that the consumer was the preferred conduit of financial liquidity — they spend freely when their “disposable funds” are augmented by equity extraction. Ergo — “go shopping”.
A happy consumer is a compliant and politically supportive consumer.
That, of course is the challenge now — to put Humpty Dumpty’s credit card back in business. The political perogative of maintaining power at all costs trumped financial sanity as the funding floodgates obliged both the political continuity of the regulators and the investment objectives by the purchasers of the opaque, but profitable asset backed securities which had a slightly higher yield over the lowered Fed funds rate. The punch bowl only had to last long enough to keep the political machine functioning. They know it has gone bust now but there is nothing left to do but try to bail out the banks…
Na gonna happen. Bye bye BusChen. Recession now says a new Repbulican administration is forming. Pity.
SanderO @ 61
That’s not what his followers say.
Sander O…do you have some special knowledge of what bin Laden looked like before 9/11? The known interviews with bin Laden demonstrated his animosity towards the US, and his general association of the US with Israel…and his anger that the US were supporting the Saudi Royals and had military bases “with infidels” in “Al Jazeera” (the Arabian Peninsula). An organization representing the information wing of Al Qaida presented a tape that declared war upon the US a year before the Al Qaida attacks on the US Embassy’s in East Africa.
SanderO @ 85
Then there are the tapes, some of which admittedly may actually have been earlier recordings that emerged later. Or with sound footage that accompanies an older video with no sound footage. These more recent tapes are most likely efforts by al Qaida itself (or fellow idealogues) to suggest that bin Laden is healthy and still in control.
But it’s simply mind-boggling that the CIA produced tapes like the one where he admits fore-knowledge of the 9/11 attacks with Saudi cleric Sheykh al-Ghamdi. That meeting also had images of not only al Ghamdi (a member of the same Eastern Saudi clan that spawned four of the 9/11 hijackers), but also of Dr. Zawahari (al Qaida’s #2), and the quite famous al-Qaida spokesman. There were other al Qaida figures in that video as well.
To fake this would require that the CIA obtain actors for all of these individuals, not simply bin Laden. They would have to be voiced coached. They would have to be trained in Arabic, and in the case of Zawahiri, the Egyptian dialect. Sheykh al Ghamdi speaks in the rather peculiar dialect found in his tribe, a dialect hat initially confused translators, until a proficient speaker showed up.
Al Ghamdi is also legless, from injuries he sustained in the Majuhadeen war vs. the USSR. He has to be carried everywhere. He is carried into the council with bin Laden by his ever-present aides.
To find someone like him would be amazingly against all probability. To place him together with dead-ringer lookalike actors able to play al l these other characters is simply too incredible to believe.
This video was not presented for “public consumption”. It was made for the Sheykh’s own needs. Unlike the other tapes it rambles on topics that aren’t all that interesting unless one is a Muslim cleric. But it does shown that both bin Laden and al Ghamdi was aware of a (but not the precise) plot and it’s participants (they were Clan members…some with his last name). In fact, bin Laden had told al Ghamdi to await the world shattering events on CNN late that night. So he watched it with a large number of people he had invited. They cheered like it was a football match.
Bin Laden uses the names of several of the hijackers, calls them martyrs. This wasn’t merely something that suggests that bin Laden was “retrospectively” claiming support for the attacks, or merely supporting those that undertook them. It’s a demonstration that he was aware of the specific individuals involved and even gave al Ghandi, in advance, the time that they would occur on 9/11.
Of course, al Ghamdi indicates he “dreamed” about the actual attacks, but it’s essentially a statement that he really wasn’t aware of the precise plot until it was broadcast worldwide. Why would the CIA include something that would exonerate al Ghamdi? Why not go the whole hog?
Yet you say this “confession” video is faked? And the rationale is that YOU really know what bin Laden looks like…and that it’s an actor???
Just some corrections to the above. Most people would know Sheyk al-Ghamdi as “al-Harbi” the latter is his more precise familial name, the former his clan name. The large clan derives from the same province as all of the 14 Saudi hijackers. Bin Laden’s family come from the adjacent Yemeni province. Bin Laden also uses that dialect in this video.
Harbi is not legless, but is a paraplegic, and must be carried or use a wheelchair. His injuries occurred in Chechnya.
In addition to the major al Qaida figures in the video, there are also many of bin Laden’s children. The actual video may have been taken surrepticiously, or at least unofficially. There are small sections in it where the videographer is caught putting on his turban as bin Laden enters without warning. In addition the video had to be editted, as it contains a section from the meeting interpolated into an earlier section with a crashed US helicopter.
Some believe that the effort was a “sting” to catch bin Laden’s confession. But it’s clear that bin Laden doesn’t deny or challenge the Sheykh’s story suggests that he was forewarned about the 9/11 attacks.
LS @ 200
There was no “thermite evidence”….no thermite traces were found in any of the buildings by the UC Davis group sent to sample the ground and air quality. Neither did they find any nuclear materials, BTW.
What explosions? Explosions have distinguishing features not found in the photos or videos of 9/11. The images captured show dust and other blow-outs expected from a massive building collapse.
The “experts” are not experts in the areas that they are actually making pronouncements about. They lack degrees or credentials in those areas. The Materials Scientists have other, quite reasonable, explanations.
There si a THIRD EXPLANATION not lis5ed above.
That the Bush Administration was aware of a potential attack on the WTC (and perhaps the Pentagon), and instead of being “incompetant” actually did undertake some acts to “respond” AFTER the attack. That would mean that they intended to allow the plan to go forward, which would allow the institution of a National Security emergency in the country and allow them to pin it on Iraq.
In this scenario it was willful “negligence”. Sort of like a poison taster not tasting the food because they themselves want the despot assassinated. The didn’t put the poison there, but they know it’s likely to happen.
But they never realized that the Al Qaida attack would be so successful and major. They likely thought that it would have limited casualties or fail and only kill the passengers of one plane. They underestimated the scale and success of the attacks.
Phoenix Woman @ 176
Did not like Lieberman – but he helped Gore win FLA.