Via Roy, the very prestigious New York Post, as well as Citizen Journalists across the land, are horrified, just horrified, by the results of this poll:
Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll.
The Post reports on these findings in its distinctive idiom:
‘BLAME U.S. FOR 9/11′ IDIOTS IN MAJORITY
‘PLOTS’ THICKEN IN SHOCKING POLL
Michelle Malkin is likewise (ahem) disturbed. “Guess Kos was right when he proclaimed of the nutroots: ‘We are the center.’ The fringe is now mainstream.” Other voices on the Right are just as alarmed: “This is madness writ large.” As indeed it is — for instance, the NY Post wrote it large in all capital letters.
As Roy remarks, “‘Blame U.S. For 9/11′? Seen from a less hysterical angle, the poll result seems like a merely uncharitable reading of the findings of the 9/11 Commission.” Exactly. Which is why I tend to have little patience for 9/11 conspiracy theories, on the grounds that such theories distract from the appalling public record.
But then again, the public record is rather the point. I find 9/11 conspiracy theories troubling, but then, I ask myself, “Self? What do you expect? It is quite clear that the administration began a war on the flimsiest of pretexts, then botched this war in an amazingly obvious fashion, all the while running an absurd PR campaign designed to sell the American people a bunch of absolute horseshit about how swell the war was going.” This is an administration that says torture is not torture, that corruption is not corruption, that lies are truth. Hell, it even stonewalled the 9/11 investigation. What were we all supposed to make of that? The known, undisputed and indisputable history of the Bush administration reads like a conspiracy theory.
So I have some sympathy with those who worry that one can never be paranoid enough when it comes to this bunch. Of course one can take that too far. But there should be no question of where the responsibility lies for the current climate of cynicism, paranoia, doubt, and distrust. Conservatives alarmed by such developments might want to run on a different campaign platform next time out, other than the one they’ve been using, which deliberately foments such passions in order to gain electoral advantage. Just saying.
Honestly. It’s pretty rich seeing lunatics like Malkin getting into hysterics at conspiracy theories. Movement conservativism is nothing else but one big giant conspiracy theory. What else was the Clinton impeachment mess but the wreckage of conspiracy theorists run amok? What else are we to make of the article of faith that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were in cahoots — and of the fact that a conservative who even mildly hints otherwise is going to get smacked back into line mighty quick? What about the hysterical global warming denialism? The Lancet study madness? Or, the daddy of them all, the belief that the Main-Stream Media is deliberately conspiring to win elections for Democrats? And that the only way to prevent their dastardly scheme from succeeding is an army of online idiots who have some half-assed ability to run Google searches and can thus maybe get someone they don’t like harassed or fired for some imaginary transgression?
It’s obvious who’s on the “fringe,” and that would be the 30% crowd. And, of course, the Democratic leadership that’s still for some unfathomable reason afraid of these drooling fools, not to mention their punditocracy enablers. Why should that be, I wonder…?
(Shrugs) Dunno. Might have something to do with Elvis. Or Bigfoot. Probably Bigfoot.
Related posts:
- Late Night: The Wacky World of Wingnut Funny
- Late Night: The Babble Phlegm of the Wingnut Republic; OR, What’s a Half a Million or So, Give or Take?
- Late Night: This Week In Obama Killing Your Grandma…
- On “This Week,” Paul Krugman Dispatches 3 Wingnut Talking Points on Auto Industry in 2 Minutes
- Do ABC This Week Panelists George Will et al Support Murder If It Works?





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Zed?
zed!
1?
Thers!
You gots it DrDick!
Gots me firstest everest zed! Wooo-hooo!.
Thers, bringing us fine crap weekly is a dirty job but I’m glad you do it.
Elvis, Bigfoot AND the easter bunny Thers.
Hi everyone
UFO’s? Maybe its all an alien plot.
DrDick.
No way! Well, congratulations.
and further,
Mary!
Suzanne!
Gawd…after all this tasering and all, now we get Malkin?
This hits just keep coming.
UFOs piloted by BigFoot and Nessie using the Easter Bunny’s list stolen from Santa Claus as to who is good and who’s been bad doing renditions.
Aw, shucks ma’am. Just bein’ obligin’.
(Looks into sunset in very masculine cowboy fashion.)
What is not specific about a Presidential Daily Briefing entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Attack in U.S.” that mentions highjacked planes flown into buildings? That’s not a conspiracy theory, that’s known fact!
Thers @ 13
707
TeddySanFran @ 14
Only known to people who pay attention.
Thers, ya nailed it on the head…
The known, undisputed and indisputable history of the Bush administration reads like a conspiracy theory.
Suzanne @ 12
Hey, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.
Or so I’ve heard.
Just to add to the paranoia”
(snip)
Reports have begun to circulate that the Administration has put together a group of scholars headed by a right-wing activist judge to craft legislation to introduce a new court of Star Chamber, perhaps to be floated in the coming year. As we see in the public pronouncements of the Bush Administration, accusations leveled at detainees in the war on terror are leveled for political effect, and often to parallel partisan political campaigns. If those accusations are rejected by a court, it therefore undermines confidence in the Administration and the Party. Which is why, in the Bush view of justice, a failure to convict is unacceptable. And which is why the Bush view of justice is no justice at all.
Harper’s
(Looks into sunset in very masculine cowboy fashion.)
That made me hear the music from The Good, The Bad and…
you know…
Seriously, though, I am always amazed by what the crowd in the White House gets away with, and what comes out almost daily basis…. Its always so much worse than anything one could have imagined.
And I know there is a lot we don’t know about what happened immediately after — who got out of the country fast, who was with whom when the planes hit … and the whole Iraq thing always smelled like a diversion: look over there! Don’t look here! Look over there!
TeddySanFran @ 14
Condi is still sputtering about it…
“Guess Kos was right when he proclaimed of the nutroots: ‘We are the center.’ The fringe is now mainstream.” MM
Sweet Jeebus on a stick! Now a great majority of Americans just aren’t American enough for the toads. The frickin nerve of us not appreciating all that has been done in our name.
This is just the continuation of making the citizens of this country the enemy.
Michelle is always SO concerned with the truth.
one does not have to believe that bush and cheney personally wired the towers with explosives to think that there seems to be a few things strange about the official 911 story line(s).
TeddySanFran @ 14
AND the Phoenix Memo…. one of 51 different warnings….
My belief is that BushCo allowed 911 happen. They needed their “New Pear Harbor” and saw one coming down the pike….. and just stood there and allowed thousands of Americans die and the other 300 million develop some form of PSTD from the trauma
Bush Derangement Syndrome = the belief, despite all abundant evidence to the contrary, that George W. Bush is a good or even competent president.
Have to say Thers that all those conspiracy theories run afoul of the Bush administration;’s unbroken record of catastrophic incompetence. If they had been running it, the airliners would have flown into the Petronas Towers in Malaysia.
selise @ 25
because, just like with jfk, the official line just doesn’t fit the puzzle pieces
Hard to remain sane when all around you are going crazy.
I always thought that Easter Bunny was up to some funny business…
selise @ 25
Like Cheney was bunkered down and NORAD was non-functional. And Bush was out of town. And the bin Laden family was flown out of the country. And and and and . . .
Steve-AR@19
At this point the Clinton Star Chamber doesnt sound half bad.
Hiya Thers!!! Hiya y’all!!!!!
katymine @ 26
Conspiracy I don’t buy, but willful neglect? That’s this groups modus operandi.
Rut-roh. 9-11. The topic which has always been ‘inappropriate for this blog’…
Might I just toss out that the “official” 9-11 story is itself, by definition, a conspiracy theory?
smapdi @ 24
Exactly. Aspects of the 911 truth movement are troubling. I’ve never believed we were told the truth about this event by an administration that was already then – Cheney’s energy task force is only one example – hiding the truth at all costs.
We’ve been lied to about 911 every bit as much as any of the worst Bushista regime operation/fiascos. That’s as far as my nutty theories on this go.
A perfect oppertunity to prove that gommint doesn’t work.
jayt @ 35
The Mod Squad has prepared with copious amounts of tin foil, copper mesh and everyone has on hip waders.
I think it is OK if this one is true.
You’d think…
As with the Clinton impeachment nonsense, and Bush’s approval ratings, nothing shocks Wingnuttia more than when America listens to their nonsense and then independently comes to a simple, logical conclusion…
*swipes into quotes file*
Suzanne @ 38
will we need brain bleach?
What the 911 commission gave us was a conspiracy theory and one which is very unlikely to be true or accurate.
They simply did not account for much of the evidence and in fact, had it destroyed or have not produced it… the video tapes of the pentagon and ALL the black boxes…. yet they have produced two in tact passports of the hijackers… yea right.
I think the 911 conspiracy theory is whacko and I could go on and on.
What IS out there is a “TRUTH MOVEMENT” not a bunch of conspiracy theories. People simply want the truth. Yea there are some theories advanced… but they are no less logical than the official conspiracy theory of the 911 commission.
I don’t believe a word of it.
SnarKassandra @ 39
Unfortunately, it has not been the case for at least 20 years (if it ever was).
SnarKassandra @ 42
The brain bleach stuff happens after you go to bed.*g*
I actually kind of felt bad about that — the poll result grabbed me & so I knew it was my topic, but I know that yes, this issue can attract the, um, differently epistemological…
I owe ya one, Suz.
The Bushes and the Bin Ladens are close. Real close. A Bin Laden is blamed for 911 but never brought to justice. All parties concerned made tons of money and garnered even more power. And the patriot act was written in a matter of weeks? days? WTF kind of info does a person need to think this wasn’t planned by these very people. Could they have taken any better advantage of the situation?
Ah think ah am gettin the vapors.
Hey ya’ll, I’m back!
After a week away from the lake I can personally vouch for the fact that lurking is no fun. After a day or two I just stopped reading the comments and only read the posts. It was just too frustrating ;0(
This situation always reminds me of the moon landings and conspiracy claims.
marymccurnin @ 23
Arianna Huffington makes just this point about the GOP every time she appears on Countdown: “The fringe is now mainstream.” She is speaking, of course, of bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran Old Lord McCain, double-Gitmo Mitt, and Rudi.
But it’s amazing to think of Malkkkin using the same argument, about DK and the mainstream nutroots.
heh
I just wanted to say that I saw Jane on C-Span early (Thursday or Friday) morning. She looked fantastic, and handled the callers really well. I wanted to post something at the time, but I was stuck at my mom’s house for Thanksgiving. Luckily, she wasn’t up yet, or the TV would have been stuck on FOX.
I keep telling her that that stuff is going to rot her brain, but that’s her whole life, sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes and watching FOX. It’s really really sad.
Anyway, it was kind of an education watching that crap. There’s very little news on FOX at this time. It’s mostly missing girls and sad sad stuff delving into people’s sad lives and personal problems. I really don’t know who’s responsible for that Peterson woman going missing, but do we really need to spend several hours a day interviewing various family members and having them air out all of their personal problems on a national cable network.
I suppose this is kind of the fallow time for that network. They air this really sad crap just to keep their sad sad viewers stuck to the tube, so they can get their political indoctrination later. Well, there is some indoctrination happening, but O’Reilly is a lying jerk, and Hannity is stupid as a brick, so I have a hard time seeing it being effective.
Well, maybe it is. My mom thinks H. Clinton is a bitch and just really truly hates her on some kind of visceral level. I don’t pretend to understand it. It’s some sort of programming that she got from the constant drumming of propaganda she watches on FNC. When that crazy person called in and called Jane ‘Unamerican’ she sounded just like my Mom. Except that was a man … sort of.
Anyway, my longest post ever. I just try to reason gently with my mom, but I don’t try to change her. It upsets her too much. I think even she knows now that Bush is a liar and a crook. But she can’t get over her hate of anyone who opposes him. Except me, because I’m her son. I suppose I just have to love her, I have no choice, she’s my mother.
You mean like this, Thers?
Oh, lord, lord. All of my relatives finally left.
madmommy @ 48
Welcome back! Glad to see you survived your sojourn into wingnuttia.
Thers @ 46
Presenting bill for:
4 sets of hip waders
2 cases of reynold’s wrap (heavy duty)
1 bolt of copper mesh
assorted liquid refreshments to gulp down with the various antacid medications*
*itemization of these items prohibited by federal health privacy regulations
hi madmommy! did y’all have fun?
Thers @ 13
Chewing on big grass, like wheat.
We’ve been lied to about 911 every bit as much as any of the worst Bushista regime operation/fiascos. That’s as far as my nutty theories on this go.
This is pretty much my position. I do think there were good people on the Commission, but it’s also clear the administration’s position was “stonewall.”
They took that position, and they want moral immunity from conspiracy theories? I dislike conspiracy theories in general, but what the hell did they expect?
You can’t make this shit up.
link
The “freedom commission is shutting down an Islamic School. I wonder how many hate spewing fundie schools they want to shut down? Black is white up is down….
Hey Madmommy.
Lurking can be fun.
Maybe just for other people.
Haven’t I read that A Lot more people lurk than post comments?
Must be a reason.
I guess it depends.
On stuff.
Lots of stuff.
marymccurnin @ 47
Heh, why did they allow Osama to escape when they had him pinned down in Tora Bora…?
“All right. You’ve covered your ass, now.”
George W. Bush – August 6, 2001
The problem with these types of theories is the evidence and the facts. If they are fuzzy you can claim WHACKO nutjob and no one will look further.
Then yoiu appoint some commission of bobbleheads to white wash the little evidence which is brought forth, and keep the evidence secret for 50 years and and MOVE ON because the nation needs to heal or in the recent case.. get on with kicking ass and making some money for the MIC and the oil sector… and the Israel lobby.
If it wasn’t for the Jersey Girls there would be no 911 commission and if you ask them.. they don’t buy their conspiracy theory of 19 guys on orders from OBL in a cave.
And OBL is not officially accused of that one by the FBI. Now that’s odd in itself. He’s been made to be uber buggie man and he’s not being sought for 911. Ha?
welcome home madmom
DrDick @ 6
Got your zeddy popped, eh? Was it good?
Really, what the poll shows is simply how little Americans trust this president and his administration. Very few of them may actually believe he orchestrated it, but I bet a majority of them are afraid it might be true and given what shocking things they’ve seen happen … are unable to rule it out. Can’t be laughed out of bounds, because what if ….
It has been well established that Condi Rice was given a detailed report of an immenent attack.
Fuck the Truth. The Necon/Repub manta…
burnspbesq @ 64
Very sweet. I will always cherish the memory. ;~)
Burnsie!
That comment was kinda risque for you.
Hubba Hubba.
That is to say, high officials might not have had exact information about the date, time, and form of the attack, but why in the hell did they have to have that sort of information?
madmommy @ 48
Sorry about ‘Bama, they had opportunities… Hawaii is about to become the only undefeated team, Kansas is down by 10 late in the fourth…
DrDick @ 53
Not as bad as Mark @ 51, but in the neighborhood. My step-sister showed up with a giant Ronnie Reagan tote bag. It took all the strength I had to supress a full-body shudder and a nearly uncontrollable urge to fling the nasty thing into the fireplace.
Former Saudi Ambassador, and good friend to Bushies, Prince Bandar says the Saudis could have helped stop the 9-11 attacks. The “hijackers” were being followed with precision by the Saudi government. But Bandar blames US officials for not being serious and credib le enough. This raises many questions, such as why the Saudis did not try to stop the attack.
There are claims that Prince Bandar (or his wife) aided the “hijackers”. I wonder why Congress would help cover up evidence of this?
jayt @ 35
What do you mean?
My belief is that BushCo allowed 911 happen.
LIHOP, then. (Let it Happen On Purpose). Makes more sense than MIHOP (Made it Happen on Purpose).
The obvious problem with MIHOP is that it imputes a competency to these thugs which is itself unbelievable. And there has been no leak of any such plan. The Immovable Object.
The “official” story, however, doesn’t wash either. The Laws of Physics trump the 9-11 Commission. The Irresistible Force.
Swear on a stack of bibles that the first time, on 9-11-2001, I saw the tapes of the Towers coming down, I said “No fucking way”.
I said a few months ago that if there’s a Heaven, and I happen to get there, first thing I’m gonna do is head for the Information Booth and get myself the true low-down on 9-11 and the JFK assassination.
Peterr @ 18
Actually, if they really are out to get you, it’s not paranoia — it’s caution.
Philip Zelicow was Condi’s deputy and he led the 911 commission and did his best to quosh a real investigation. That report was a joke.
SnarKassandra @ 55
The kiddos had a blast, the pics are on FB. There were no huge fights so in the grand scheme of things, all is well. Did you have an enjoyable Thanksgiving?
Apart from the purple-heart bandaids, the thing that rankled me the most about the 2004 GOP convention was Rudy making a whining apology for Bush. “But he was only President for eight months when 9/11 happened!” Setting aside the fact that a term is 48 months long, and the grown-ups were supposed to be in charge from the outset.
demi @ 59
It was very hard to lurk after participating in the give and take. At least for me, anyway.
Howie’s post with all the links to Jane’s CSPAN appearance
TexBetsy @ 63
Thanks!
SnarKassandra @ 39
With co-conspirators like that … we are well and truly f**ked.
Hee hee. Something like that…
My own personal conspiracy theory (at the level of maybe it could be true) is that the Bushies were behind the anthrax mailings. Then 9/11 happened and they ran with it. It would explain why only Democrats (or suspected Democrats) received the letters, why they never caught who did it, and why the investigation just seemed to disappear as soon as nobody was looking. Not to mention that the reports indicated it was military grade anthrax from a US lab.
CTuttle @ 69
Yeah, I figured the hated Tigers would prevail. Great game by the Warriors last night though! Me and the big kid watched it and he was facinated by the Haka. He likes the cool uniform colors, and the warrior guy too.
madmommy @ 80
What beautiful children in the pics!
FOUR sets of hip waders! How many hips do you go through…?
Yeah, the Bush administration’s secretiveness and participaiton in nefarious schemes like torture and the suspension of basic Constitutional rights tends to make conspiracy theories more believable. Arguing against it is the fact that they are incredible screwups. Katrina revealed it to most of America, but we knew it from the beginning.
I tend to believe that they had no specific knowledge of the 9-11 attacks, but they knew that sooner or later there would be a terrorist attack and they were well prepared to take advantage of it to advance their agenda of middle east war and the expansion of Presidential power negating all those pesky Constitutional limits on the executive’s power.
I think that 9-11 was earlier and bigger than they anticipated, but I give them credit for taking full advantage of it.
DrDick @ 83
it doesn’t even have to be a bushie – could be a sympathizer(s) unknown to the bushies. gov is not a monolith (as much as rove has tried to make it one).
DrDick @ 83
Explaining the dems lack of backbone. Scared stiff.
Speaking of Prince Bandar..Marcie has dirt..
Prince Bandar, a confidant of the Bush family, recently retained the former Federal Bureau of Investigation director Louis J. Freeh, as well as one of the fathers of the F.C.P.A., the retired federal judge Stanley Sporkin, to represent him.
“There have been no charges filed,” Mr. Freeh said in an interview. “The prince denies any impropriety and violating any statutes in the United Kingdom or the United States.”
link
I never understood why Bill had the piece of crap Freeh as FBI Director.
Thers @ 86
you don’t think i’m doing this all by my lonesome, do ya? and i don’t wanna hear one word about what those blasted hip waders do to my silhouette.
About 6 months after the 911 Commission report came out Richard Ben-Veniste spoke at an ACLU luncheon and during the Q&A session someone tried to get some answers about many of the 911 Truth issues and boy did he tap dance.
He was a surprisingly terrible speaker and only when he was answering questions did he improve. It was from that point that I questioned the validity of the 911 report. Can’t remember any specific details now but from that point on, my gut feeling is that there was a lot of politics involved.
bottom line – i don’t have enough info to reach any meaningful conclusions… living with the uncertainty and ambiguity is uncomfortable – but i think that’s were we arel.
The MIHOP theory is more about rogue members of the MIC, the intel agencies doing it and this was probably known as in… chatter. It’s more like a cross between LIHOP and MIHOP because it is more than likely that the people used and blamed were not the one’s who pulled it off, but patsies who would take all the blame… set up.
But the disabling of the defenses was not incompetent bumbling, but purposeful so that the appearance of planes could take place. It’s unlikely that those planes caused the towers to collapse and they certainly had nothing to do with WTC7 which was not even hit.
There is no evidence of a plane in PA… or people… but debris from a explosion spread over many miles.
No plane at the pentagon either. No bodies… no DNA… but it was reported from a military lab in MD that all the people were identified… ha?
It was very hard to lurk after participating in the give and take. At least for me, anyway.
Right. Different strokes, and all.
Even when I don’t feel like sharing, I still like to see what my friends are up to.
Just me.
marymccurnin @ 85
Why, thanks ma’am! The quirks of the gene pool always astound me-average folks like me and the hubby can combine and make such cute younguns!
ot – if newtonusr (or any mac techie) is around and willing, i have an imac question. thx.
Just dropping in and skimmed through the Christine Pelosi thread. It’s probably good that I missed that since I might have sullied FDL’s good name.
Is she a ghost writer for J. Low Lieberman?
“I think the way to disagree with a party leader is with respect based upon the principles of the party. Focus on the issues, not the personalities, and offer a constructive alternative. It has been my observation that making it about the person not the policies doesn’t empower a change in the policies.
I’ll end on this note about the war: if we demonize everyone who supported the war (a majority of the American people at one time by the same pollsters who report significant opposition now), we are missing the opportunity to make common cause with them to end it now.”
Around here anyway, that’s all we’ve been doing. Waiting patiently and trusting our Dem leaders to do something. This was just one of many comments about “bipartisanship” and “reaching across the aisle” being the key for us Democrats to bring about change.
Doing everything within my power to remain calm, but Fuck That!
Seriously, do ThoseThatKnowBetter ever think about the thousands of babies, toddlers, pregnant mothers, and everyone else buried in piles of rubble, bleeding to death and feeling the last breaths of their children leave their tiny bodies, before their own eyes close forever? Do these DeeCee elites think about those last moments of these people’s lives when they’re lecturing people on “civil discourse,” and making compromises with people who NEVER compromise, ever?!?!?
All because of bombs made and delivered by our tax dollars, and in our names as Americans, and completely unecessarily.
As I put my 1 and 3 year-olds to sleep tonight, I’m reminded why it is essential those of us, who can see beyond our political playing fields, fight like Hell to stop this madness. I’m happy we have a strong military to DEFEND us. When our selected leaders decide to invade countries which obviously posed no threat to us, killing hundreds of thousands in the process, we have to stop the madmen WITH EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER. Dems have had enough control to significantly disrupt the corrupt machine for almost a year. Too bad they decided they had to play nice instead. 2007 is already the deadliest year of our Iraq Occupation. Our Dem leadership could have reduced those numbers dramatically, and don’t give me any of that 60 votes nonsense!!! There’s plenty they could do. If you need ideas, stop by here again. Many here are quite well-versed in the Constitution and the “ways of Washington.”
Ms. Pelosi, drastic times call for drastic measures. These are drastic times. Let me introduce you to someone who understood this very well, Steve Gilliard.
Here’s a little lesson for you…”We Fight Back.”
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 87
Have you read “The Shock Doctrine”? The theory is that they want you to know what shit heels they are. Katrina was just an example of this.
Why else would they have cut the funding for levee repairs months earlier. Of course, they didn’t make the hurricane show up. They just didn’t give a shit if the city flooded. Especially since it was a democratic strong hold.
DrDick @ 83
IIRC, the anthrax attacks happened after 9/11. That doesn’t mean the Bush administration isn’t behind them. I tend to think it’s more likely a rogue operator with access to government resources, but that’s just speculation on my part.
selise @ 97
Hi selise!
I was hoping to just lurk tonight, being the recluse and all, but what can i do for you?
good night!
DrDick @ 83
And the FBI destroyed all samples, so no future testing can be done. I think it was a lab employee at Ft Detrick and the Bushies are trying to hide the fact that bio-weapons R&D is still going on.
Before I go, here’s the link to my post today about kids who have parents in jail.
DrDick @ 83
Not to mention the photographer who died had taken an unflattering photo of a Bush twin falling down drunk. Not to mention that the building in Florida where the spores were found was the HQ of the National Enquirer, his employer. Not to mention that Rudi’s firm bought the building after the company that owned it went bankrupt. Not to mention that Rudi was the first person to set foot in that building after it was de-anthraxed.
Not to mention that Tom Daschle, to whom one of the anthrax letters was sent, was later the first Senate leader to be targetted by the opposition in his re-election campaign, breaking a long-standing agreement between leaders of both parties not to work to support the opponent of the opposition’s leader.
jayt @ 73
Sorry, but given what I know about the previously untested methods that were used to build the towers, and given what I know about the explosive power of large quantities of jet fuel, I have no difficulty believing the “official” explanation. Wasn’t this all covered on “Frontline” in 2003 or 2004?
Steve-AR @ 90
Freeh was present at the confirmation hearings and the swearing-in of the new Attorney General.
The reason I question the whole 9/11 business is simply because it all worked out too perfectly for Cheney. It’s like everything he’d devoted his life to came true and real so quickly. Not a hitch. Not a stumble. Until the 2006 election. Things are now slowly starting to turn. Rove and Gonzoles are gone, Libby is a convicted felon, and everyone (almost) wants us out of Iraq. Even Darrell Issa distances himself from George Bush. Who’s with him? Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham? Laura?
9/11 – Ooooohhhh…tabooooo…..shhhhhhh…the boogyman, ….911., 9/11, 9/11….yeah, let’s deal with it….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zLCxNP3Ju0
Could it be that the opportunistic use of a shocking event just spun out of control. With those with hidden agendas seizing on the fear and confusion of the moment, to push those agendas forward. And that that the sources of these started from an assortment individual actors with a similar goal, and later coalesced into a loose confederation of fellow travelers?
DrDick @ 83
Hee hee.
If I’ve never mentioned that you rock, please allow me to amend that oversight.
I want to make a point that is hardly discussed in this the conspiracy theory
the president knew we were under attack, he knew that buildings were being successfully bombed
yet he remained in the venue that was advertised on his schedule for I think 45 minuites
that’s right, the cia did not escort the president to a safer location, a location that would not be publically known
instead they kept him in the building where everyone knew he would be
seems to me they were sure the plains wouldn’t be comming to the advertised building where the president was scheduled
this to me is a huge piece of information
that’s right,
madmommy @ 84
Vili is pretty cool… Which Tigers? Auburn, Clemson, or Mizzou? They all won, or about to win today… ;-)
burnspbesq @ 106
Don’t know about the construction side of things, but as I recall jet fuel has explosive properties similar to or greater than fertilizer bombs. One of those did a significant amount of damage to a structure in my home state.
Pretty much *every* nefarious thing that the Bush administration has foisted upon this country has been based upon, or justified by, 9-11. Illegal wiretapping, the destruction of the Bill of Rights, torture, the loss of Habeas and Posse Comitatus, a general environment of fear etc., is justified, pretty much solely, by what happened on 9-11.
I’m thinking that it’s not a coincidence.
SnarKassandra @ 104
Is that the link you posted earlier today, or is that a new one?
perris @ 112
What are you saying exactly. I am either reading too much or too little into this.
demi @ 94
I hear ya, demi! I think that since this is my only opprotunity to discuss issues with like-minded people, when I can’t participate it is just too frustrating to just lurk.
Hey madmommy! Welcome back!
Same one Teddy.
Thers @ 110
(laughing) there are many who would disagree – but i’ll let ya in on a little secret… flattery will get you just about everywhere – well, almost everywhere. this lady does have some standards (laughing)
The reason I question the whole 9/11 business is simply because it all worked out too perfectly for Cheney. It’s like everything he’d devoted his life to came true and real so quickly. Not a hitch. Not a stumble.
Yeah, but it worked out even better for Bin Laden — Richard Clarke was IMHO completely right when he said that invading Iraq was precisely the intended effect of 9/11.
Which is partly why Iraq makes me so angry. It’s degrading to get played by terrorists.
newtonusr @ 101
thanks for delurking – so sorry to intrude!
my imac won’t recognize an external firewire startup drive anymore (was working until today)… can’t even get it to boot off of the techtools dvd. using option key and power on, i get to the screen where i usually get to choose a start up drive – now only the internal (and failing) drive shows up.
am i going to have to get a new imac sooner than i planned?
Loo Hoo. @ 108
Addington, the snake.
Thers @ 121
Cheney or Bin Laden?
Thers @ 121
We weren’t played. BushCo is a wholly owned subsidiary of SaudiCo.
this lady does have some standards
That’s why I married my wife. Unlike most women her standards are apparently remarkably eccentric…
Hey You, Loo Hoo!
Madmommy, do you discuss politics with your husband? Just wondered, ‘causa what you said.
(Don’t mean to get too personal.)
TeddySanFran @ 126
Exactomundo.
Just finished watching Live Free or Die Hard, loves me some John McClane. Although Alan Rickman in the original….but I digress….
The fear campaign of Bush-Cheeknee is a two-forked one…kind of like their tongues. The real target is Congressional Democrats. If they can keep them afraid of their own shadows, mission accomplished.
But I’m growing more positive that this too is a project that will be Bush-failure. Kinda like that Sammy Sosa trade–always has to overplay his hand does the man with the perpetual chip on his shoulder. And hey, if Barry Bonds isn’t above the law, as the sports announcers say, then a hack ex-team owner risen above his level of incompetence shouldn’t be, either.
Yippee-kay-yay.
Yeah, that crap about WTC 7 keeps being dragged out again and again. One thing that never seems to be taken into account by those people is that the buildings in the WTC complex weren’t really seperate buidings. It really was one one big underground complex with several tall above ground extensions. I used to spend some time in the underground area below the complex when I took the PATH train into Manhattan and got off there to ride my bike to the village. Obviously, this is a terrible design, but in the 60s when they were designing them they really didn’t think about terrorism.
The collapse of the towers destroyed a lot of the underground stucture, and the very intense fire that followed finished it off. I’m not surprised that WTC 7 collapsed. I’m actually surprised that any of the buildings survived.
CTuttle @ 112
Well, Auburn…duh!
When the big kid saw Vili at first he thought he was scary, then I explained a bit of the native culture (not that I know alot) and then he thought it was cool.
Newtonusr, I wasn’t able to watch Jane on Washington Journal until I returned home this evening from my family’s Thanksgiving. Just wanted to say a huge thank you for the 9 YouTube segments that enabled me and others to see Jane in action. She was wonderful, and so are you for providing the videos. Thanks!!
Thers @ 122
I think 9/11 pissed Bush off because it derailed the Iraq time table..They were forced to do Afghanistan first.
I will agree that there is way more to the Saudi side of this than has ever been admitted by the government.
Didja hear the one about Vince Foster, Dan Burton and a watermelon?
S’true.
SnarKassandra @ 105
Kassie,
I read your post earlier. I worked in corrections for seven years. I dealt with prisoners and their families. Your article strikes me a one of the most compelling on this subject I’ve ever read. I now teach college, and read about 350 student papers a year. You’re more ready for college at your age than 85% of my 20yo students are.
Make that 95%….
baby-sitting tomorrow. good night!
selise @ 124
You have an internal firewire startup drive in an iMac?
Nite, Cassie!
SnarKassandra @ 104
Cassie, the word is “prison” not “prision” and it’s “prisoners” not “prisioners.” Might want to clean that up, because it’s a great post otherwise. Sorry, I am a spelling nitpicker.
jane hamsher @ 136
It’s terrible about Vince Foster and Dan Burton.
Ed*ard Teller @ 138
I second the observation.
demi @ 127
He’s not terribly interested, though I have been bringing him along, slowly. He doesn’t pay that close attention so if there’s something going on I usually need to bring him up to speed as to why a topic is a big deal and what it means in the big picture.
Thers @ 57
I haven’t read all the comments so if someone already said this, forgive me:
Remember that Ashcroft would not fly commercial airplanes the summer before 9/11?
I have always remembered that.
Ed*ard Teller @ 138
Wow! Thanks!
I really liked that site I quoted from and I think I will do more posts about the issue.
msmolly @ 134
You are most welcome! Was a blast to do.
Loo Hoo. @ 118
Hey LooHoo! Did you have a nice turkey day?
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 131
I call BS. 3 (three)..steel-framed buildings collapsed on the same day…for the first time in the history of the world…defying architectural logistics…that even one steel-framed buildingcollapsed…ever…ever…ever…ever…would be newsworthy.
Explain it then.
DrDick @ 114
I don’t know about the “explosive” quality of jet fuel, either. As I understand it, chemically it is most similar to kerosene. And what are kerosene heaters made of?
At any rate, I find it hard to believe that jet fuel, or any other similar substance, has the ‘explosive power’ to turn construction grade steel beams into dust.
perris @ 112
That’s not at all difficult to understand.
The objectives of terrorist attacks like the 9/11 attacks are, as I understand it, twofold.
The first objective is to attack the most visible symbols of American power. Political power, the White House (the target of the plane that was brought down in Pennsylvania). Military power, the Pentagon. Economic power, the WTC.
The second objective is to create fear by showing that “hey, we can hit anything we want, anytime we want.”
By those criteria, an elementary school in the middle of nowhere is a nothing target, even if POTUS happens to be there.
It wasn’t at all about getting Bush.
There is no point in going after a single leader unless you can decapitate the entire leadership. And as Tom Clancy showed in one of his books, the only way to decapitate the entire leadership is to blow up the Capitol during the State of the Union address.
Why would the house of Saud (sp) want to ignite the core of the middle east? Who stands to gain from it? Or if it was a long range plan geo-politically and we fell for it (much like the USSR) by over extending ourselfs what next?
I kinda think OBL played the Saudis too. 9/11 put SA on the fence between the US and their domestic extremists, which is to his advantage.
jane hamsher @ 137
Huh?
MM
Well, good for you. It’s a place to start.
I only asked, ’cause my husband and I talk about this stuff all the time. But, we’re a little older. When you don’t have rugrats (and I mean that in a nice way, miss mine being younger and running around the house and all) underfoot, there’s time for other stuff.
Hope you have time to take care of yourself, now that you’re home and all.
Gotta love those little toes.
burnspbesq @ 150
That timetable always bothered me, as well. Even if the intended effect was not to take out a particular government leader, wouldn’t SOP be to quickly move the POTUS to a safe location immediately, rather than letting him remain in a relatively unsecured location for a long period of time?
jane hamsher @ 137
Mom is up late making sure the kids behave.
burnspbesq @ 151
you missed my point;l
they kept bush at his scheduled venue, they did not whisk him away
doesn’t matter the point you are making, if they thought we were under attack the last place you would find the president is at a scheduled venue
how could they know the presidents scheduled visit wasn’t a target?…how could they know there wouldn’t be assasines?
it’s just not likely their “standard operating proceedure” is to allow the president to remain in a building everyone knows he is going to be
burnspbesq @ 152
Ah yes. The Bush Doctrine. I guess that’s why binForgotten is still running around with his dialysis machine in tow.
I think I hear important video games calling.
newtonusr @ 139
internal is the failing (by smart test) drive (original equipment). external is my lacie drive* connected by firewire 400.
* note: the lacie drive is the one we were talking about me taking apart to put in my imac – i ended up not doing that when the internal started failing because my imac only has a 700 GHz processor which is supposed to be too slow for 10.5, and i’m going to get a new imac before upgrading os, was too lazy to attempt the drive change.
perris @ 158
You would think that they would want to get him away for two reasons.
1. So he could manage the disaster.
2. To protect him.
Maybe someone wanted him out in the open. hmmmmm.
demi @ 154
Don’t I know it! They want to know when we are going back up to granny’s house already. My “aquarium toe” is still bothering me. Good thing I rarely wear anything other than tennis shoes or I’d be in trouble.
Hi everyone :) I’ve been lurking, so I’m now wishing every-one a belated ‘Happy Thanksgiving’, although I will look at it somewhat differently now after reading Ian’s great post…
Re; 9/11, it seems to me that ‘The White House’ has spent a GREAT deal of effort to stop us from knowing the ‘facts on the ground’ about ‘how’ it really went down and also I think people are afraid to look too closely, because that will open up things that they are not ready/willing to see clearly.
Now OT, sorry :( I’m just a naturally curious person..
I was just wondering around the web and found this page and I was wondering with all the amazing minds here;) if someone could spread some light??? Many thanks :)
http://www.mymailout.com/MyMai…..amp;p=3fef
Further down this link there is a contract awarded in April(?) to, among others, Qwest.
Question; ‘ Who’ took over from the former CEO (who is now facing jail time for apparently doing a ‘Martha Stewart’, basically guilty of lying to an federal investigator while not under oath)?
And, because Qwest seems to have returned to the fold, ‘Does that mean they are now playing nice with the White House?’
Also, does anyone know what ‘Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12′ is ?
And, What is this contract about?
The March 28 RFI
http://www.fbo.gov/spg/GSA/FTS…..psisR.html called for companies with capabilities in the following:
*The Resource Description Framework (RDF), a method for specifying the syntax of metadata.
*Web Ontology Language (OWL), a markup language for sharing classification schemes.
*Knowledge Interchange Format (KIF), a specification for exchanging data across different computer systems in such a way as to capture semantic relationships among the data elements.
*Common Logic (CL), an update of KIF that uses formal logic to describe the relationship among the data elements.
In addition to these languages and frameworks, the GSA is seeking expertise in using “open-source rules engines, reasoners and theorem provers,” according to the solicitation. It is also seeking insight into “knowledge representation, semantic integration, information flow, formal concept analysis, category theory and the semantic Web.”
No word was provided about how the agency plans to use these advanced tools and capabilities, but interested parties are encouraged to provide contact details at GSA’s Open Source eGov Reference Architecture http://www.osera.gov/web/guest/isp Web site. Deadline is April 12.
“aquarium toe” ?
Hi Jackie. Nice to meet you.
ha! .7 GHz (i only wish 7).
A majority of the people believe 9/11 conspiricy theories.
Lefties are the 70% majority.
So Lefties must all believe 9/11 conspirices?
Just what are the Left, Right breakdown of this poll?
I sucspect the Vince Foster was murdered crowd the 30%ers who listen to Fox and read Malkin ALL think Hilary, Jews etc were responsible for 9/11. I would kill for a follow up poll to confirm my sucspions.
Lefties on the other hand blame Bush and anyone connected to him.
So if the 30%ers are added in then a majority of Lefties would not have to believe in 9/11 conspiricy theories for the statement that a majority of the people believe 9/11 conspiricy theories to be true.
A physical decapitation is not necessary when you break down the legal and ethical structure of a government. And replace it with a system which suits your needs and goals, with the bonus of nearly a third of the general population.
marymccurnin @ 164
Stubbed my next to the pinkie toe on the aquarium stand several weeks ago. Big time pain dance, still hurts!
Welcome Jackie. Thanks for delurking.
marymccurnin @ 165
don’t do it mary (adding aquarium to the don’t mention around mary list along with camels, clowns, and toes)
bonkers @ 159
Have to say that I never really thought that taking out Bin Laden was strategically all that important. His main role seems to have been as financier to al Qaeda and that other people handled strategy, logistics, and the like. There is also the fact that “Al Quaeda” was always more of a loose network of largely independent cells and individuals than a formal operation. The core group provided training, financing, and support services to otherwise independent terrorist groups. There were other reasons to go after Bin Laden and Bush certainly looks a fool after promising to get him dead or alive. The Tora Bora incident also demonstrates a monumental incompetence. The real problem is not that we have let a terrorist mastermind go, but that it makes us look weak and vulnerable.
They didn’t turn them into dust. The fire heated them enough so they became too weak to support the structure above them. And then the 20 stories above the fire fell onto the story below them. If you drop a 20 story building 8 feet onto the top of a 90 story building, the lower building will collapse very quickly, as you can see in the video.
The towers were designed (and somewhat underdesigned) to support the static load of the structure. There’s no way they could support the millions of pounds of falling building that hit them when the middle floor girders collapsed.
I can’t tell you the exact temperature that Jet fuel burns at, but I’m sure it’s quite high enough to structurally weaken steel.
I find it to be quite interesting that here, at this blog, where some of the most reasonable and intelligent commenters anywhere tend to reside, there is honest disagreement about whether the official version of 9-11 is to be believed.
Seems to me that if good and reasonable minds still disagree, there’s more investigating to be done.
go mizzou
Uh, all? I know I was sort of asking for this, but the point of the post is not really to do with what happened on 9/11, but with the hypocrisy of the GOP & wingnuttia complaining about conspiracy theories. Can we pull it back a bit, thanks?
Instead of interpreting the poll as THEIR measure of the rabble’s sanity they might want to see it as the widespread belief that the evil, murderous bastards running this country would stoop to ANY level to get their way. Perhaps even allowing a terrorist attack to gain political and military leverage. Didn’t it work for Adolf in February 1933 when the Reichstadt was set ablaze?
msmolly @ 134
Where, what?
Suzanne @ 172
and pussies.
Thers @ 177
They certainly are hypocritical when their own house is built on tinfoil and fear mongering.
A majority of the people believe 9/11 conspiricy theories.
No. Reread the post.
selise @ 162
We need to have an email chat about this…
So this was just an exercise in political Halloween so to speak.
Loo Hoo. @ 180
Jane’s entire hour on Washington Journal yesterday is captured in 9 YouTube segments, thanks to Newtonusr. Link.
marymccurnin @ 165
“aquarium toe” ?
That’s the one that got her goldfish pregnant. Kind of a long story.
perris @ 158
I didn’t miss your point at all. Rather, I extended to you the courtesy of explaining in detail why I consider it erroneous and/or irrelevant.
Loo Hoo. @ 180
Here.
Suzanne @ 171
707!
Evening, Suzanne! Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.
Melissa @ 21
Don’t forget the part about Ashcroft refusing to fly on commercial jets starting about a month before Sept. 11.
Let’s see, that would be around AUGUST 6 and that damn “okay, now you’ve covered your ass” PDB that Bush brushed off.
Thers @ 177
seems like there is plenty of complaining about conspiracy theories on both sides. just depends on who is president to determine which side is doing what. i remember during the clinton years it was the right wing with theories about everything from who was sleeping with who and vince foster’s death. then it was the dems complaining about conspiracy theories.
now with bushco the roles are somewhat reversed.
personally i don’t care if a theory includes the presence of a conspiracy or not – i’m more interested in knowing if the evidence supports the theory and if the theory is a useful predictor of future events.
yup
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 175
Steel becomes “plastic” IIRC at ~800 degrees. NOVA had a recent show on the latest computer models of the failure and IIRC the floor “joists” and connections turned out to be the weak link.
Since Bush did receive the August 6 PDB warning that Bin Laden was determined to strike in the U.S., it’s hard to argue with that. I mean he was told who would attack and approximately when, but not exactly where.
No wait. Bush didn’t read the memo. He’s in the clear.
Boy, Bin Laden sure benefited….didn’t he…
newtonusr @ 183
ok, no rush (just thought late nite was the best place to ask). thanks.
sorry to all for the OT.
Define conspiricy theory? All the Saudi’s including the Bin Laudin family were flown out of America after 9/11 without being “talked to ” by the FBI.
That is certainly suscpious and warrants further independent investigation as does many other things.
If the MSM reports something and we want to know more because it smells fishy does that mean we believe in conspiricy theories?
selise @ 197
No problem, I’m just smacked with paperwork. Hour maybe.
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 194
Yes, but Condi did. I am assuming that a Ph.D. in political science can read and comprehend simple English.
Who else benefited from 9-11?
Who lost out?
selise @ 197
I’m a Mac “bigot” since 1984, so I’m always fascinated by these techie chats….
I can’t tell you the exact temperature that Jet fuel burns at, but I’m sure it’s quite high enough to structurally weaken steel.
dammit. I can’t find it right now – I’ll get back to you. But jet fuel burns at a temperature substantially lower than that needed to melt structural steel. And whatever that temperature might be, jet fuel does not burn for weeks. There was molten steel being extracted from the WTC site two weeks after the event. Jet fuel can’t cause that – thermite, otoh, could.
msmolly @ 201
I had a phone consultation with newton the other night.
You do realize I was joking right? Yeah, Condi read the memo, but she did nothing about it, like the rest of the crew. I keep hearing she’s smart, but I’ve never seen any evidence of that.
Steve-AR @ 158
The real Jane Hamsher looks looks like this. (capital letters)
Jane Hamsher
Uh, no. The Clinton stuff was nonsense, but it dominated the media and was discussed seriously. Despite the obvious lunacy of Bushite policy, and the craziness of their supporters… they continue to be taken seriously.
That’s the point.
DrDick @ 174
Now that’s really gonna tweak the wingnutterbutters, considering “Dick and W’s Excellent Adventure” into Afghanistan was based on getting the dude. Then, with that great success, they were able to make “Invasion II: Electric Boogaloo” in Iraq.
Without OBL, they got nuthin to justify the Republican War on Terror (TM).
Although, if one accepts the premise that perpetual war means perpetual profits for long lines of war profiteers, such as the Booshes, then they might want to make sure OBL plays the boogeyman as long as possible.
selise @ 162
I wouldn’t hurry to upgrade to Leopard..third party software is trying to catch up..I would wait 6 months. If I can’t get my photo printer to work, I am going back to Tiger for a while.
Steve-AR @ 209
Yep.
My feeling is that the official story is the conspiracy story. Just sayin’. That’s just me…and a whole lot of other Americans.
Thers @ 207
And all this by the “liberal media”…yeah, right. Every time I hear the liberal media theme brought up by the wingnuts it is enough to make me go a bit nutty.
You don’t need to melt it to weaken the steel enough to cause a collapse. In addition, the jet fuel just ignited the blast. Lots of other stuff was burning for a long time.
As for the molten iron in the basement, I’ll have to say that I honestly don’t know the answer to that one. I’m not really an expert on that, but I don’t find it hard to believe that a big fire that burns for a long time can create incredible heat.
Loo Hoo. @ 206
I got suckered?
wouldn’t it be funny it all this started as a simple act of incompetence, followed by the cover up of that incompetence and later seen as an opportunity to fundamentally change the way government works.
argosfalcon @ 215
Not funny. That’s what I personally believe happened.
jayt @ 202
Jet fuel burns at almost 1800 F (here).
Steel melts at about 2500 F (here).
The point of the argument made earlier, however, is not about the melting point, but the temperature at which steel becomes plastic and bends, making it incapable of supporting the weight of the structure it is supporting, which happens at a much lower temperature. Once the jet fuel started burning it ignited many other substances in the building, some of which night well have had higher burning temperatures.
YAY MODS !!
Exactly.
msmolly @ 186
Thanks!
Things Come Undone @ 197
No, it means that we have our BS detectors turned on. I would point out, however, that they should remain on at all times, and when people that we normally tend to believe are the ones putting out stuff that smells fishy, we have to call them on it to the same extent that we call people we normally tend to disbelieve.
That means you, Scott Horton. “Reports are beginning to surface.” Sheesh — WTH is that?
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 204
Personally I keep waiting for the University of Denver to revoke her Ph.D. After all the anthro department at UCLA did it to Carlos Castaneda.
argosfalcon @ 215
I think the fact that the Federalist Society is now 25 years old says it all. What we are seeing today is the result of long term planning.
I am ALL with that.
Loo Hoo. @ 205
uh, treo folks
Well….it sucks..
I give.
TeddySanFran @ 217
a toast to the mods!
Steve-AR @ 208
thanks for the warning. 6 – 12 months was about what i was thinking – unless my imac is really dead. new imacs come with leopard installed (but i suppose i could install my old tiger os). more than that – i’m not sure i’m ready to make the jump from the g4 to intel chips (no way can i afford to purchase the new photoshop & illustrator – i figure that the longer i wait the faster the new imac processors will be – so hopefully i won’t notice any slower response).
damn. just bought a new external HD… was not expecting expense of new imac :( maybe i can get one the refurbished ones apple sells.
treo?
bonkers @ 207
it is not a particularly original thought on my part. Several security analysts and former spooks were saying that after we went into Afghanistan (which may have been a legitimate move, but was hopelessly fucked up, just like everything else these bozos do).
TexBetsy @ 203
what a great guy. i already owe him big time.
Thers @ 207
I’ve seen several references in the Conglomerate Media recently about how Whitewater, Foster, Lewinsky, etc will be dredged up again with a Clinton the 2nd the nomination. I forget at the moment who exactly, but on Meet the Russert and Snufalupagus’s show there were some esteemed pundits taking it as an opportunity bring up all that stuff again.
You could almost see the glee in their eyes when they say…”Whitewater.” Of course, no mention of how after years of intense investigation by possibly the most partisan hack lawyer in America, absolutely nothing came out of it. So what would be the point of bringing it up again? Hmm…..
Oh, and of course no mention of how our Constitution has been shredded before their very eyes by Republicans.
Thanks for saying welcome, Suzanne and TexBetty, but I ‘delurk’ quite often, I always manage to go OT really quickly, but I try to read everything, posts and comments..I’ve learn’t so much here and this is the first place I come to with questions etc… :)
A long day driving and I’m wiped out. Goodnight all!
selise @ 227
Why an iMac? Why not a MacBook?
selise @ 228
PS CS3 seems to work fine. I am having trouble with the Epson print drivers.
Condi has a small yodi-like person from Mexico advising her (of course it could simply be a large silver Crow).
DrDick @ 221
burnspbesq @ 220
I have to say, that as a professor, I have an industrial grade BS detector. I suspect that burns, as a lawyer, also does. It’s a requirement of the job (along with training in logic and evidence and stuff like that).
TexBetsy @ 228
small hand held communication device
Steve-AR @ 222
They have been planning this since Goldwater.
Steve-AR @ 236
Of course you are! :-)
Be thankful you don’t have a 7000 series HP multifunction.
Time to fire up the jukebox!
Night MM.
madmommy @ 234
Nite, MM!
Well I am feeling cold, so we can all have cookies and hot chocolate.
And we can also please put on a sweater or climb under the covers. Thank you!
Malkin should be worried her 30%ers are doubting the government, corporations, the oil companies Hilary, Jews etc a trigger event could as easily turn them against the government.
As it could turn them against us but I doubt Bush can control them.
Steve-AR @ 214
Not so’s I’d advertise it and quote your comment…*g*
newtonusr @ 240
Still having problems? Guess I’d better set up a shrine to whatever gods are protecting me, because my 7310 is working like a charm.
Suzanne @ 238
and she comments from it?
burnspbesq @ 242
Ahhh. The lovely Lucinda. Thanks burns.
i was going to write this post on skippy, thers, but you and teddy in sf beat me to it.
again, we must keep in mind that polls are expressly worded to take whatever position is discussed and tilt it to the right.
the poll didn’t say “americans think the administration plotted to take down the towers,” it said “americans think it’s possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on new york and washington, but chose to ignore those warnings.”
as teddy pointed out, the daily briefing warned of an upcoming bin laden airplane attack, and bush chose to ignore it.
americans know this. they are not saying anything more than this. they’re not saying the bush pushed the demolition button, or that cheney sold the plane tickets to the hijackers.
simply that bush’s incompetency allowed 9/11 to happen.
that’s not conspiracy, it’s truth.
DrDick @ 240
True.. I just wanted to give a concrete example; that this conspiracy has had a long gestation.
TexBetsy @ 248
she can and does, when away from her laptop
burnspbesq @ 234
i have 12in g4 ibook that i quite like (very portable) and it’s only a little over 3 years old. my almost 6 year old imac let’s me have a bigger screen and regular keyboard for when i am home – and it runs my external HDs (4 of them including my main itunes) and my eyetv.
burnspbesq @ 248
Try the 7400. Ouch, baby!
burnspbesq @ 248
It’s a pro3800 and the colors are way off.
skippy @ 251
Damn Skippy, Skippy! ;-)
so … if we do secret santa or something and one of you draws my name …. this looks lovely, don’cha think?
TexBetsy @ 244
Excellent ideas, every one of them.
*pulls on sweats*
DrDick @ 240
Exactly. I’ve always said Carl’s Jr Rove got way too much credit. Rover, Frank sLutz, etc have been living off the fruits of the labor of many that came before them.
Really, how hard would it be when you have the mega-Media consciously helping you out, and the richest of the rich on your side supporting you. Oh, and a lack of scruples whatsoever. Pretty much a recipe for success in the Republican party.
Steve-AR @ 252
It is actually pretty well documented (can’t remember exactly where I have read about it). When Goldwater flopped the future neocons began laying the ground work and building the infrastructure for the the whole right wing noise machine.
Suzanne @ 252
Treo is a Palm version of a Blackberry Phone/PDA
Steve-AR @ 255
non-techie solution. clean the cartridge.
skippy @ 250
hi skippy!
TexBetsy @ 249
Palm handheld, phone,
sex toy, sandwich, etc. All in one. I have one. Kinda cool.T’anks, skippy.
Indeed, they dislike it when people perceive the obvious…
I would have to buy two, thats does look good.
TexBetsy @ 257
DrDick @ 216
Thanks for the temperature info. I still don’t buy it though. Those were relatively small, localized fires. They burned out, for the most part, pretty quickly as evidenced by the amount of smoke, which itself is evidence of an inefficient burning. The first building to collapse was the building hit second, by the plane which kind of clipped the corner of the building, causing a substantial percentage of the on-board fuel to be ejected outside the building, where it burned in open air, as opposed to burning inside the building.
And even if the steel “plasticized”, what happened to it? There were both external and internal support beams in those buildings. Even if warped, they should have still been there after any joint failure.
And even if the collapse was caused by weakened beams, and all of the plates which were bolted to those beams somehow all simultaneously failed, what should have followed would have been a pancaking collapse, where one floor falls onto the one below it, they meet, then fall onto the floor below them, etc. This takes time.
The collapses actually took just a few fractions of a second longer than it would take for, say, a billiard ball dropped from the top of the building to fall through unencumbered space, to the ground below. It has been estimated that a pancaking collapse would have taken in the neighborhood of 28 seconds.
And with that, I’m through with 9-11 for tonight.
A toast to the Mods.
newtonusr @ 264
spew
BTW did anyone post pictures of the SF firepup meetup?
So before this thread ends what of next year in the context of all this?
“Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings,”
Think it’s possible? Of course it’s possible. Take out the word “specific” and it’s not only possible but a fact. Do I think it’s possible that there were specific warnings about planes possibly flying into buildings? I think that is also a fact. Do I think it’s possible that at least one of the named buildings was the World Trade Center? I think that is also a fact.
I don’t think that 9/11 was “an inside job”, but I still would answer yes to the above poll question.
And with that, I’m through with 9-11 for tonight.
A toast to the Mods.
The Mods say thank you and are toasting you with a strong unnamed beverage.
newtonusr @ 241
Wait a minute now….this HP has been performing spotlessly now for several months. (The guy at Fry’s told me that this time they would put in an American made product instead of a Chinese product. Haven’t had a problem since.
I still wanna Mac.
katymine @ 269
and video!
welcome, thers, hi teddy, and hi, ctuttle!
katymine @ 269
Teddy did!
TexBetsy @ 274
Where?
skippy was invited to the meetup but was busy walking a picket line irrc.
TexBetsy @ 263
It has eight of them..I did a cleaning and nozzle check which checked out..looks like a software problem with Leopard.
at one point it seemed that the information age would lead to the truth, now it seems that the information age has made it easier to bury the truth…under mountains of information. ironic.
Steve-AR @ 235
i’m still on CS(1) – from before the intel macs. and since i don’t work at a school anymore, the price for CS3 is prohibitive.
katymine @ 277
don’t recall.
Here’s a little something for all of you “conspiracy theorists” out there.
It’s a YouTube that is 56 mins long, so bookmark it for later. It may make you feel better, or not.
9/11 Revisited: Were explosives used?
katymine @ 270
Hi katymine!
vids. Inadvertent vids, but vids…
1
2
selise @ 253
Aah, I see. In the office, I have a gorgeous 22″ Samsung monitor that’s driven off my skanky Dell laptop, and use one of the cool new Apple keyboards. I know that a G4 iBook can’t drive the 30″ Apple display (I asked about that a couple of years ago), but I would bet it can drive a 21″ or 22.”
Multiple HDDs would probably require a powered hub. Right now I have my iTunes library and Time Machine backups in separate partitions on a single 500Gb Western Digital external drive. At some point I will switch to a G-technology G-raid mini to get some portability and redundancy.
DrDick @ 249
ditto.
And since I’ve been inappropriate for the entire thread, I see no reason to stop now.
Tito and the Tarantulas – and – Salma Hayek!
(The campiness factor was just to much to pass up)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL-76r_pQII
DrDick @ 261
Yes, there have been documents released over the years showing the plans. They’re sort of like that PNAC document where they’re laying out the plans for what’s happening now in the Middle East.
One of the ones I saw from the 60s specifically referenced the social upheaval of the 50s and 60s as well, and how they needed to make sure that didn’t happen again.
Owning the Media to control the national discourse was a big part of the plans. I’d say mission accomplished on that front, at least since Clinton the 1st signed the Telecommunications Act, which Ruturd Murdoch practically wrote. No wonder Rupaul supports Clinton the 2nd!
hmmm, maybe they are not really afraid of this 30%, who are just plebes anyway.
maybe the (D) leadership are really just in favor of the policies they enact and enable – imperial plunder through military conquest, and a police state for the homeland?
that would explain a lot, so give it a ponder. It’s a special night already when one is allowed to doubt the Official Story of 9/11 on FDL.
TexBetsy @ 258
Our Social Coordinator, Ms. TexB…
Loo Hoo. @ 273
C’mon up some Saturday afternoon; I’ll go to the Apple Store at Fashion Island with you.
Max Thrax @ 281
The information age has given us unprecedented access to more information than has ever been available before. Unfortunately, not all information is true and not all of the information is in a context the allows us to interpret and understand it accurately. Sometimes the more information you have, the harder it is to sort it all out. It doesn’t help when powerful individuals and organizations deliberately hide critical information.
Burns I am drooling over here, and it’s your fault.
burnspbesq @ 291
Nice, Burns!
AppleCare!
Sixty-two percent of those polled thought it was “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that federal officials turned a blind eye to specific warnings of the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.
newtonusr @ 265
lordamighty! What does somem lik that thar kost?
sporkovat @ 289
Heh.
Suzanne @ 272
Ummm, was that a thank you for the toast, or for just shutting up?
The question still stands what of next year in relation to all the things tangled up in this issue. Or will some of this remain a permanent feature of the culture and other pieces be resolved?
please tell me you had different reasons for crossing off each of those phrases.
TexBetsy @ 292
Sorry.
sporkovat @ 289
DING! We have a winnah!
After the actions of our
witfearless Dem “leaders” over the past year, how can anyone doubt this theory?jayt @ 297
it could be taken either way – which was the beauty of my comment (laughing)
Loo Hoo. @ 296
About $619
Thers @ 87
Heh, here’s a conspiracy theory that’ll work on those facts:
FDL was modded up for book salon (just in case dontjaknow) then they discovered the late nite topic and mods volunteered for overtime. And now they’re trying to bill you ;-) Outrageous I say!!
bonkers @ 301
Where do I find a patriot to vote for? We still allowed to vote?
It’s a special night already when one is allowed to doubt the Official Story of 9/11 on FDL.
Y’know, I really was not kidding when I said I have little patience for 9/11 conspiracy theories, so let’s not run away with ourselves.
Thers @ 306
Well I’ve been good. Here for the entertainment and not to debate anyone. Tonight anyway.
To quote our fearless leader: Bring it on!!!!
Heh!
TexBetsy @ 300
*shrugs*
Indeed who to vote for, and the question will we be allowed to vote, hmm, their going too in Pakistan some time maybe.
burnspbesq @ 291
Not yet. Lil HP is behaving. Not that I stress her too much. I’ve got a freaking web cam, and I haven’t a clue why…
burnspbesq @ 285
i have a powered hub (also an external dvd burner). i’m transferring a bunch of video tapes to dvd (with some minor edits) for a relative (hence all the HDs) and having the extra cpu means i can have the eyetv running while using my ibook. also, with the imac, i can use any of the external HDs with my ibook via shared drives from anywhere in the house.
time machine sounds great – i’ve been using superduper for backups.
… and the big monitor sounds great – maybe i should got the mac mini and separate monitor route (instead of imac).
sigh. and here i thought things were about back to normal after getting my latest HD and getting all the files moved around and backed up.
Loo Hoo. @ 295
Treo 750, the current top of the line, is about $350 from AT&T with a two-year commitment. That’s more than a 4 gig iPhone. Unlocked Treo 750 from someone like Mobile Planet would be 5 and change.
TexBetsy @ 306
More patriots than you can shake a purple finger at.
Loo Hoo. @ 274
American made? My Macs say designed in California, assembled in China. I read where all lap tops are made in one of four factories in China or Taiwan.
Loo Hoo. @ 311
Has something to do with that guy you met at Kos. Oh, and the black nightie.
LS @ 196
Can’t wait to see what happens at Annapolis. Could be cooked goose, and it could be goose cooked. Hard to know.
Hee hee.
I thank tonight’s mods — they did a great job handling comments to a short-hop post. Well played.
Steve-AR @ 316
Pretty much all actual computer manufacturing is done there and has been for a long time.
Steve-AR @ 316
Must be jobs no Americans would do. That’s what Lush Limpballz told me.
TexBetsy @ 308
TexBetsy,
God, I love you. So Feisty.
And, it is late on a Saturday Night and all.
Still. Girl, you said it.
Ha!
This reminds me of the comment earlier about the types who become Police.
Power and all.
Goodnight to all my firefriends, whether you are looking for entertainment or serious debate or a reason to say
sextoysreally cool, expensive communication devices.It’s all cool.
bonkers @ 302
easy! many whose factional loyalties blind them to inconvenient tendencies on the part of the Good Cop (D) Team can wax poetic on the beauty of H. Clintons possible appellate court nominations as she launches massed cruise missile strikes against whoever our feistiest middle eastern “ally” tells her to.
from whoisioz, another dire and unkind skeptic
Thanks for the links…
The 911 Truthieness food fight has been waging here in Phoenix for over a year. They had a weekend conference 911 Truth movement with all the speakers of the movement were here. IF you do not believe that 911 is the same as operation Northwoods then you are a naive yokel. I am tired of all the bickering.
What I have is questions. Why this, why that…. but my basic belief is they had plan PNAC and used 911 to make it happen. Criminals use every opportunity they find for their benefit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Heading to bed…. see ya all tomorrow
Night Katymine.
sleep well demi.
steve evfuture @ 272
That’s not what the survey asked. It asked if the respondant thought it was “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that US officials turned a blind eye to specific warnings….
It didn’t ask if it was “possible”…but LIKELY. And that’s a very different thing. It’s the difference between a “hypothetical” and a “probable truth”.
Most Americans answered this poll in the affirmative because they believe that Bush, Rice and Cheney knew about likelihod of attacks on the WTC and Pentagon in advance and did nothing. That leaves open the issue as to whether they were utterly incompetant…or intentionally ignored the warnings.
But in either case this is a devastating indictment on the Bush Administration from the majority of the American public.
And in either case most Americans would likely support impeachment for these crimes.
Steve-AR @ 315
Apple primarily uses two Taiwanese contract manufacturers, Hon Hai and Asustek, for laptops. Hon Hai also does the iPhone. Not sure who does the desktops and iPods.
night katymine
Well I’ve been good. Here for the entertainment and not to debate anyone. Tonight anyway.
Fair enough. Pax.
DrDick @ 238
Love you guys…
Christine
bonkers @ 321
The Thugs have gutted the American economy..the coming crash is going to be brutal..and I am afraid it will swing the country to more authoritarian govt.
Thers @ 307
doubt first, then theories. your post expressed doubt:
one component of the Official Story is that they never stonewalled the investigation, the investigation is the final word on the terrible events of that day, and anything not sanctified within its pages is the product of the tinfoil hat crowd, now including the majority of the population.
Steve-AR @ 316
I don’t know. Something about the chip(s). Is it important? Seemed funny that I bought it with a Chinese part, and it kept breaking until I got the American made part/chip.
new thread upstairs
one component of the Official Story is that they never stonewalled the investigation, the investigation is the final word on the terrible events of that day, and anything not sanctified within its pages is the product of the tinfoil hat crowd, now including the majority of the population.
Actually the post says that the poll response is justified on the basis of the report.
The 9/11 Commission Report is in fact pretty damning even if you take it at face value, you know.
But enough. I’m to bed.
sleep well thers
sporkovat @ 333
707 ~ Now that’s funny!
Good night, demi.
I don’t think anyone doubts that the 9-11 attacks were the result of a conspiracy.
The questions is, who was involved in the conspiracy?
after silverstein and the nyfd decided to ‘pull’ building 7, what demolition company set the explosives?
peas!
“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day;
but a series of oppressions,
begun at a distinguished period,
and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers,
too plainly prove a deliberate,
systematical plan of reducing us to slavery.”
Thomas Jefferson
Here late and no one will notice, WGAF?
On “after silverstein and the nyfd decided to ‘pull’ building 7, what demolition company set the explosives?”
Sheesh, that one’s easy: They were in place when the floor renovations were done earlier! But (owl) whoooo? … nfi … but if I researched it and found out, i’d have to kill you …
I say it all the time, does not matter really, if 911 was inside job or not! The results and opportunity presented to the NEO-CONS/NEO-FACSIST, are the same as in pre war Germany, where the Nazi attack on Poland was defensive and pre-emtptive, to protect the “HOMELAND,” the beginningn of WWII. If 911 was an inside job, it only makes it worse….
Fact is without the War Crimes Trials, we would have never known the truth how the Nazi’s created this facade to justify invasion of Poland. “THE BLITZ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
prior posted link did not work?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
newtonusr @ 102
Oh no, newtonusr! I’m the recluse:)
Master lurker. And my car’s name is Newton! Known to lurk, also.
Recluse @ 346
LOL!
ploeg @ 61
And, after the attacks, “I hit the trifecta.”
65yoh @ 341
Charges were already set in place and clean up afterwards was done by by the same company the did OKC.
Interesting…..think about it.
“I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn’t believe anything.”
St. Hubbins
So if you read the public record of blatant deceptions that is the legacy and slimy trail of sinister administration, you know that the Bush/Cheney cabal have lied about virtually everything. But you believe their version of what happened on 9/11? The BBC accurately reported on the collapse of World Trade Center 7 more than twenty minutes before it actually happened. The evil doers got lucky and just happened to implode the New York headquarters of the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, the SEC and the mayor’s Office of Emergency Management (and love nest), dropping a 47 story steel structure in its footprint, without the help of a jet-fuel-laden airliner. Who benefits? Who do you believe?
Last night on the History Channel Gerald Posner and Peter Jennings assure me that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Nothing to see here. Pay no attention to all those documents that must remain secret for another 30 years or so for national security reasons. In particular pay no attention to the tall gangly spook with the receding hairline by the Texas Book Depository who happens to resemble the future head of the CIA and father of the worst human being to ever steal the presidency twice.
http://www.tomflocco.com/Docs/…..kDepo2.jpg
http://educationforum.ipbhost……e=threaded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW03ZBybu4
At the time the warnings of attack were mounting in 2001, Cheney was looking for a pretext for involvement in the Middle East. They consciously decided to do nothing, to absorb attacks they thought would not be so bad.
Watch the movie Zeitgeist:
originally a German expression that means “the spirit of the age”, literally translated as “time (Zeit) spirit (Geist)”. It describes the intellectual and cultural climate of an era. In German, the word has more layers of meaning than the English translation, including the fact that Zeitgeist can only be observed for past events.
“Zeitgeist” refers to the ethos of a select group of people, that express a particular (predominantly post-modern) world view, which is prevalent at a particular period of socio-cultural progression.
TeddySanFran @ 14
Steve-AR @ 194
WTC 7
must sleep
g’nite grassy knoll mutts…
you know what i always say…
peace
Thers, major kudos, tribute and honors for writing this. “What do they expect?” EXACTLY.
It’s not our fault if NOTHING about 9/11 rings true. WE didn’t put out all the stinking bogus stories and lame excuses; WE didn’t muy pronto haul the forensic evidence off to Hong Kong; WE didn’t pave the roads with 9/11 cremains. It’s not like our bullshit detectors died along with democracy.
Does this look like a controlled demolition? LINK
When wingers react to a rational argument by attacking the question and insulting or belittling the questioner,
it usually turns out to be true. And the ‘truer’ it is, the harder ‘they’ react. Just an observation from one who has learned to doubt.
Newtonusr, thanks from me as well. Jane Hamsher really knows her stuff, and has the perfect demeanor for dealing with extreme right-wingers. She is a truly impressive speaker. My own personal public speaking style is similar to hers–casual yet precise–and I know how difficult it is to pull off.
In regard to right-wingers, one of the things I found very interesting, having never really listened to a call-in political TV or radio show before, is that it was obvious within just one or two words whether a caller was Republican or Democrat. The Republican voices were so stressed and angry.
For those who listen to these kind of shows, is this because they were calling in to ask questions of a progressive Democrat, or would they have sounded that way even if there were a right-wing guest?
VictorLaszlo @ 340
Or how many conspiracies?
65yoh @ 341
“Pull ‘em” is fireman lingo for “get the hell out” of a burning (or collapsing) building.
Right, there was at least one “conspiracy” that came to fruition on 9/11. We’re told it was the one hatched by a guy named Osamma. Yet, Bush constantly acts like he’s got something to hide — perhaps just his own incompetence — and the Neocons were known to be hoping for a “Pearl Harbor type” event. And by the way, why doesn’t the NTSB do plane crash investigations anymore . . .
Anyway, here’s a couple more paranoia inducing facts that you forgot in the post. 1) Early in the administration, after stealing the election and after refusing to see the South Korean PM who came to the Whitehouse to talk about starting nuke talks with North Korea, but before saving the “heroes of Hunan” by saying “sorry” with his fingers crossed behind his back, Bush “unsigned” the World Criminal Court treaty. Isn’t that the act of a man with a plan — planning on breaking the principles of Nuremburg, anyway?
2) There’s something real funny about that date. Don’t you think that 911 smacks more of Western psyops than Islamic jihad?
Bartcop asks the right question, what wouldn’t powerful, evil men do to make billions and amass absolute power?
there is one aspect to the conspiracy theory that hasn’t been explained. why did wtc7 collapse? It shouldn’t have, but it did with people being warned that it would. It wasn’t hit and fire damage was minimal.
Improbable Collapse
http://video.google.com/videop…..6596731782
LS @ 150
As an architect (yes, registered, yes, practicing) let me give you a few salient facts to explain the collapse of the two towers.If you want the Number 1 reason the towers collapsed on Sept. 11, look no further than the architect.
Minoru Yamasaki designed the WTC. If you google “Pruitt-Igoe”, you will find that the WTC was not the first building of Yamasaki’s to come down. He’s not a good architect. The design of the WTC towers was radical, careless, unprecedented. Jet fuel is NOT explosive, unless it is mixed with fertilizer, as in the OK City bombing. But it does burn at about 700 degrees, and heat weakens steel. Jet fuel will not melt steel, but it gets it preety hot and soft.
When any grade of steel is heated, the steel weakens, bends, and in the continued presence of heat, ends in “dynamic failure.” The reason no other steel framed buildings ever collapsed before is that 99.9% of steel buildings are well designed. The WTC towers were not well designed, and the collapse of one or two floors virtually guaranteed that the entire building would come down, straight down, and land virtually within its own footprint.
Controlled demolition of the towers? Not possible. In addition to explosive charges placed to cut the columns in an exact, programmed sequence, the structural elements are tied together with steel cables which are then pulled tight, like guitar strings, so that loose pieces of structure do not escape the building envelope. This work takes days and weeks to set up. It is steel cables, generally 1/2″ in diameter, large winches and turnbuckles. It is obvious to anyone inside the building. It can not be concealed. If no one saw lots and lots of steel cables strung across the open floors of the WTC on Sept. 8th, it was not controlled demolition. If you say it is ‘impossible’ that the WTC should have collapsed on its own, I say it is impossible that it was rigged for controlled demolition. And I have a license to back it up.
Did Bush and Cheney and Rice LIHOP? I don’t have the right license to back up my belief that the answer to that is ‘yes’. Did Bush, Cheney et al benefit from Sept. 11? All you need is eyes to anser that yourself.
Mark B. from Austin TX @ 175
I am not an engineer but the buildings looked imploded which would not be hard to do with wireless detonators. I find it difficult to believe both buildings collapsed straight down (the fire weakening the girders differently) One would think the top floors would fall to the side the plane hit, much like a tree falls in the direction it is notched.
Some of the conspiracy theories found in something like “Loose Change” make no sense, like the airplanes that hit the buildings weren’t the ones that were hijacked, but that doesn’t explain why, in the days following 9/11, when all planes were grounded, some planes went around the country picking up Saudis before we realized 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis. Someone had to have advance knowledge. Who in our government approved that operation?
Forget also why the fighters did not scramble. I’m not sure what the rules were for this situation but the planes were obviously hijacked from the get go.
Finally, speaking of the MSM’s failure to look into things, why didn’t they investigate Jeff Gannon, the homosexual prostitute with white house press privileges who apparently stayed over at the white house. Did Bush, Rove and he have threesomes? Supposedly the white house logs don’t show the time he went in and the time he left.
ca @359, did silverstein say ‘pull it’ or ‘pull ‘em’?
peas!
dopey-o @ 363
let me guess, you design dog houses and tool sheds.
Steel becomes “plastic” IIRC at ~800 degrees. NOVA had a recent show on the latest computer models of the failure and IIRC the floor “joists” and connections turned out to be the weak link.
So, if it’s on the now GOP controlled PBS, it’s gotta be true? (sigh) Listen, steel doesn’t become “plastic at 800 degrees unless you’re using that term in a very subtle atomic sense. Steel structures have been repeatedly tested by exposure to prolonged petroleum-based fire and they can’t get the temperature of the steel itself (not the surrounding air, mind you) to raise above 647 F, due to the heat sink effect of the rest of the steel stucture. The fires at the Twin Towers were *very* small and very short, with most of the jet fuel atomizing and oxidizing in the first 10 seconds of the event (it’s in the NIST report).
It’s beyond me to understand how anyone could watch those three buildings fall into their own footprints and conclude that they fell like that without “help”. Given how small the fires were (there were people photographed waving for help at the site of impact, indicating that the fires there were out) and yet videos show melting metal pouring out of the buildings( can you say thermite?), you’ve got to agree that there are some real inconsistancies with the 9/11 Report.