I was on Washington Journal this morning and had the inevitable Republican caller who asked why, if the past election was a mandate to end the war in Iraq, the Democrats just don’t defund it.
I think it’s a valid point, but I argued that while Americans want to end the war, they don’t support defunding as a means to do it because they perceive it as “not supporting the troops.” Now before I start getting emails, let me state emphatically that I don’t think that’s true, it’s just an argument we have failed to make, in large part because so many have been working against it.
As Glenn Greenwald notes in his superb dissection of the problem:
The question that naturally arises is how did this happen? Why would Americans, who overwhelmingly want a forced end to the war, favor every measure for achieving that other than de-funding? How did it happen that — to use Alter’s formulation — “Americans have been convinced” of a patent falsehood: that de-funding would “endanger the troops”?
In one sense, it is hard to think of a political fact — at least since it was revealed that 70% of Americans continued even 6 months after the invasion to believe that Saddam personally planned the 9/11 attacks — which more profoundly reveals how broken our political and media institutions are than this. There are all sorts of reasons which, though misguided, at least constitute coherent arguments against withdrawal. But the notion that de-funding constitutes a failure to support the troops — in a way that, say, timetables do not — is just inane, not even in the realm of basic rationality or coherence.
And yet exactly this nonsensical notion was permitted not only to take hold, but to become unchallengeable conventional wisdom in our public debate over the war. The whole debate we just had was centrally premised on an idea that is not merely unpersuasive, but factually false, just ridiculous on its face. That a blatant myth could be outcome-determinative in such an important debate is a depressingly commonplace indictment of our dysfunctional media and political institutions.
But the real reason this happened is because Democrats not only allowed it to occur, but eagerly helped it. As much as anyone else, even leading anti-war Democrats such as Carl Levin and Barack Obama continuously equated de-funding with a failure to “support the troops.”
Time and again, even those Democrats who supported a mandatory troop withdrawal would talk about de-funding like it was some sort of grotesque act of betrayal (“oh, absolutely not, we will not de-fund the war. We will support our troops”). Over and over, this is what Americans heard even from Democrats who oppose the war:
Meanwhile, Senate Democrats have their own divisions. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, has called for initiating a withdrawal but has rejected a cutoff in funding. “I think that sends the wrong message to our troops,” he said a few days ago. “We’re going to support our troops, and one way to support them is to find a way out of Iraq earlier, rather than later.”
Is it any wonder that Americans reached the completely irrational conclusion that to de-fund the war is to endanger the troops? Not only were Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman saying this, so, too, were most leading Democratic war opponents.
Defunding could hypothetically be achieved by a simple majority in the House refusing to pass any more bills to finance the war. But because Democrats have failed to make the case effectively and are so prone to repeating Republican talking points on the subject, it never becomes a viable option. Which I do find terribly frustrating.
And the Feingold Amendment — which ties funding to troop withdrawal — only got 28 votes last time it was before the Senate, a far cry from what would be needed to pass it, let alone override a Presidential veto.
All of this presumes, however, that the Democrats really do want to get out of Iraq. As I’ve said before, what Harry Reid did to the Webb Amendment — which would have circumvented the PR problem of “defunding” as a means of realizing troop withdrawal — calls into serious question whether getting out of Iraq is something the leadership really want to do at all.
(h/t Bill for making the YouTubes)



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Hi Jane!
6
I stayed up and watched you, Jane. Fabulous.
Downstairs has been advised.
thanks ll
I’m sorry I missed your appearance, Jane — I was down in Richmond and not on the toobz :-(
Jane!!!
Support the troops. Bring them home now.
*channelling Billy Crystal*
You were mahvelous, Jane. Absolutely mahvelous, dahling.
hi Jane
yes, mahvelous — watching the YouTube now
LoudounLib @ 6
Howie’s got linkage at DWT…I liked that kooky wheezer from Texas the best.
;>)
nice work, this morning, Jane…
I watched the entire series from over at Howie’s place.
darkblack @ 11
sweet, thanks db!
Peterr @ 8
Eh, still a little chemo brain-y, flubbed a few, but getting better.
Jane was great..How far things have progressed since Jan ‘05 with Jane, FDL and fund raising.
Jane!
You were fantastic this morning! Nailed every question, looked great, and even kept a smile on your face when the jerk from Texas effectively called you a traitor, right before you gracefully dispatched him with the observation that his type is headed for extinction soon. A truly superb performance!
One small quibble; I noticed that you smiled and shook Jonah Goldberg’s hand as you passed… even though his crotch was fully exposed for a more proper greeting.
Just kidding. Fantastic job!
Jane Hamsher @ 14
sure did not look like flubbing to this viewer. the comparison between you and that doofus on after you was remarkable.
Explain to me, someone, why Feingold gets voted down all the time????
If they don’t want what Feingold wants…what the F do they want?
What does the country want?
What is wrong with these people????
Who are these people???
Must be Homelandians. That is all I can come up with. I give.
I also noted that the host seemed unable to stop smiling the whole time you were on. Don’t know who he is, but obviously a man of good taste and distinction…
Evening all. I see we have Jane with us on Late Night twice in one week. Quite an honor and an event IMHO. Did my part to destroy capitalism today and resolutely stayed home.
DrDick @ 20
me too – i followed howie’s lead and did not buy anything – postponing my trip to the grocery store until tomorrow.
Jane Hamsher @ 14
You were great on Washington Journal, and the listeners liked you too!!!
DrDick @ 20
I myself did not spend one single cent today, I was happy they validated my parking at CSPAN.
Jane, you make me proud to be a fire pup.
Jane Hamsher @ 14
Both you and Christy have made huge progress with the media “thing”.
You were fantastic, Jane. Read egregious’ liveblog this morning, but your on-the-spot great answers are great to watch.
“chemo brain-y” was not apparent.
Loo Hoo. @ 26
*standing on chair clapping* eg did a fabulous job live blogging it.
Yay Jane! I didn’t notice any flubs.
Hi LL.;)
United Homes of Homlandia.
hey Margot :-)
You were calm, rational, logical…and then you left and that bonehead came on…I put the pillow over my ear…I had to go back to sleep…he was annoying…If I did that, so did others…
This is great that all all the videos are posted. Savvy, articulate, believable, and just fantastic!
Thank Goddess for C-SPAN…
The scary thing is that we have a president who’s basically running an extortion racket, and probably would leave the troops in the field long after funding was cut off, just so he could try to blame someone else.
If you don’t impeach a president who thinks he’s above the law, he’ll continue to screw you whenever you try to use your lawful powers.
LS @ 32
Jane, thanks for not including the Doughy Pantload in your CSPAN clip. What a waste of protoplasm.
Although I fully support defunding, my problem is that is too indirect a means to end the war. A sane commander-in-chief would, when faced with an accomplished de-funding, begin disengaging and bringing home the troops. I don’t believe that Bush cares enough to do that. He would more likely begin shorting every other use of funds and contiue with troop deployments. He is just as likely to cancel shipments of bullets and food. Our 160,000 troops are now hostages because he really doesn’t care what happens to them. He only cares about not losing… to the “enemy”, to the Democrats, to the will of the people.
Impeachment is the only answer. Anything short of that and the troops will pay for our leaders cowardice.
I paid for a prescription I filled on Wednesday. That’s all.
On the other hand, my mom, sis & aunt went to the stores at midnight last night for the shopping “event” and shopped many hours and spent much money.
You know, we never talk about the fact that it was George Bush’s fault that Hilary was married to Bill Clinton and talked about WMD’s.
Why don’t we blog about that, whining liberals?
Yours,
K. Clabkrad (ret.)
;>)
Jane Hamsher @ 14
If you say so.
Still, your responses to the . . . ahem . . . crackpot callers were quite instructive. If anyone wants to know what you meant by “pivot and attack,” just point them to this interview and tell them to go to your reply to the caller who called you unamerican (and worse).
Lurking congressional candidates, take note: this is how it is done.
I see Redshift and I think alike.
Margot @ 29
Thanks, Margot. Much appreciated.
It seems clear to me that Reid has no desire to do anything that will help the troops come home – or do do anything about the wire tapping. He and others have drunk the kool-aid that says that if the Dems do nothing the war will be blamed on the Repubs. Alas, the longer the Dems wait to do something, the deeper their feet are in the blood of this war, and the fault will more readily stick to them. Rove has already begun the move to blame the Dems for the whole thing. No matter what the Dems do the Rethugs will blame them. So, they might as well get out now rather than later and at least save a few lives AND get credit for trying to come home.
Little Boots recognizes that the Dems appear paralyzed on the war… I’m guessing, ’bout the 1st of August, he announces “Mission Accomplished” and brings a whole lotta troops home.
while flipping the bird and laughing his ass off.
I argued over at my blog Zippity Do Dah back in September that we indeed do have a strong vehicle for bringing this war to a close via a type of “defunding”.
That simple, and I believe, elegant mechanism is:
This approach would still provide all the necessary monies for salaries, supplies, food and water, munitions, etc.
What it would prohibit is any new folks from heading to Iraq, and because “tours of duty” end, it would gradually remove folks brigade by brigade.
I guess no Congresscritter reads my blog. *g*
Jane, You were marvelous today!
While I agree with redshift etc… Can’t funding for withdrawal be passed now or the bill laid upon the table for all to see.. Showing the American people that bringing home the troops no longer has anything to do with not funding the war?
boosh is a bully. the gop has become the bully party. the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to him. to not back down. to fight back and keep fighting back. most bullies fold when confronted but sometimes ya gotta call their bluff and go toe to toe until they back down.
every time the dems cave in to boosh, it strengthens his bully pupit ego.
jane showed today how to pivot and attack instead of crumbing under the bully tactic of that foolish caller.
Mad Dogs @ 45
What’s to stop him from simply extending the tours of duty indefinitely?
TexBetsy @ 38
Mad Dogs @ 45
Brilliant. Love it. Out smarts everyone of the m f’ers.
really great…
did have one question i wanted to ask you – since you’re 100x more insightful about politics than i am (even with chemo-brain), i thought i better ask…. and now that you’ve given this great opening…
from egr’s live blog:
why do you think speaker pelosi is a progressive? that has not been my impression at all.
Suzanne @ 47
Bush is a psychopath..different animal and much more dangerous.
Bravo dear JANE! Your appearance was oh so compelling – looking forward to you rendering Brian Lamb speechless and happily agape through the general election.
neurophius @ 48
The rage of families of those who serve, and the American public’s rage if he even thought for a moment he could try it.
I’m even willing to bet that a good number of Repugs would stand in his way too!
stratocruiser @ 37
I agree. Defunding alone will leave young kids in uniform with even fewer resources and not force any action to withdraw. While they are there, they should have every damn advantage that money will buy, especially armored vehicles that let fewer of them come back dead or maimed.
The right thing to do is force withdrawal, not starve them. Troops are fodder now, in a civil war. Why make them fodder for more political arguments? Feingold is on the right track: don’t play games with money. Step up to requiring the right action from the president.
Bush probably would leave troops in Iraq without provisions or even food and water. Gates at least has the good sense to say he’ll close bases first. Hell, they just got $500. billion bucks. I could make that stretch for a year, with absolutely no training in this sort of thing. They must be diverting huge sums of money…
Excuse me being OT but today is election day in Australia. Please send your good thoughts and prayers that Bush’s BFF John Howard and his government are on the unemployment line come Monday. We’ll do the same for you next year.
Steve-AR @ 51
I would say Cheney is the psychopath or sociopath. i would further say he is an organized serial offender who uses boosh as his tool and no longer cares about whether or not the result shocks and offends. boosh is just a failure bully who responds when cheney pushes his buttons. boosh is the weaker of the two but they pretend otherwise.
OldCoastie @ 44
I don’t believe that America is paralyzed on the war. I believe the lying Homelandians are stuck, and “they” are paralyzed by their mismanaged, illegal war. Little Boots is stuck though…holding the big bag. I agree…there will be a cry of victory and a whole lotta troops called home…soon, unless they get severe pressure…because the oil interests want to stay no matter what the cost.
Laughing “it’s” ass off…we will see, we will see. Karma is a biatch.
Mad Dogs @ 53
Yep. I heard similar thoughts from some in my family yesterday at the Thanksgiving table who were always rah-rah-Boosh and pro-war. I was astounded, and pleased at seeing some minds opening up.
persiflage @ 56
Go get ‘em ((( persi and all Aussies )))
persiflage @ 56
sending warm, healing, progressive voting thoughts down under with an extra special helping of howard finding himself unemployed at the end of the day.
Jane,
I thought you were marvelous on Washington Journal. You seemed to defuse even the usual cadre of wingnuts who LOVE to call in, and who anxiously await their 30-day fixes.
That’s actually one of my favorite shows; some of the callers are defy belief.
persiflage @ 56
Sending warm wishes that all conservatives everywhere permanently join the unemployment line.
should have read “actually defy belief”
DrDick @ 63
Best of luck…may Howard be long gone by this time tomorrow.
Why does the action have to come from the president? please read powwow’s excellent comment earlier this evening downstairs.
we got into this dayam mess via the dayam AUMF and pow wow does a great job disecting who can do what and how.
What amazes me is that for all the ‘progressive’ talk about defunding, never is it made a litmus test for any prez candidate. If getting out of Iraq was more than a bithching point for the left, they would either withhold any support for any candidate who would not defund or support the one candidate who has called for defunding for years, Dennis Kucinich. There is little point in talking about how bad it is to be in Iraq and then lining up behind the dem ‘leaders’ who keep us there.
persiflage @ 56
Best luck! Saw that at Kos.
by Devilstower
Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 03:59:19 PM PST
Voters will head to the polls in Australia Saturday (today, for those of us on the slow side of the world), and it’s looking as if W’s man down under might be headed for retirement.
The center-right coalition of Prime Minister John Howard, who has been in power for 11 years and is one of the most stalwart supporters of President Bush in the Iraq war, faces a stiff challenge in Australia’s elections on Saturday, polls indicate.
…
Dr.Dick@63
Slight rephrase…
“Sending warm wishes that all
conservativesneocons everywhere permanently join the unemployment line.”I don’t think being conservative is a bad thing, necessarily, but the neocons have given the term an odor from which it may never recover.
Suzanne @ 66
Nice pick-up Suz!
Another must-read. Do not miss this piece!
OT….
Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music
link
Modern, I think, is anything after ~590 CE
john in california @ 67
On the other hand his wife just said he would definitely consider running with Ron Paul. Not a strong point in his favor for me and I actually like many of his positions.
Shadowstalker @ 69
Actually I would cheerfully see all of the neocons, paleocons (big business types), and theocons burn in hell (which is where they have done their damnedest to send this country). Cannot say that my sentiments extend to all conservatives, but certainly the bulk of them.
All of this destructive thinking is not limited to the U.S.A.
It is negative thinking.
What we still have available is constructive, innovative thinking. We need a positive route…we need positive ideas…we need positive solutions…
We need…A-OK.
Affirmative….Affirmative.
We need…YES…Good…Love…Live..Life…
That is what we need….
DrDick @ 72
This is a huge red flag.
One thing that I do believe we’ve bee effective at is taking back support of the troops from the Repugs. I don’t believe they own that term anymore, and slowly we’re taking patriotism back.
I have a bumper sticker on my car that sums it up
Support the Troops, Bring them Home Now. It has a yellow ribon on it and is from the Iragq Vets Against the War.
Suz and newton, I am in awe re: pow wow’s comment.
isit2009yet @ 64
did you change your name you are using here? we tend to like the pups to pick one name and stick with it – not a problem if you did (since you are faily new here) but we like to know to avoid any question of sock puppetry – perhaps adding a formerly known as at the bottom of your comments for a day or so so that everyone knows you changed.
I hope to catch the C-Span rerun. But Jane, you have proven to be an outstanding journalst on a daily basis. Perhaps you covered these points, but they need repeating.
!) The Republicans and Democrats are not funding the troops, but it is being funded by the Chinese and whoever buys Treasuries. This is a debt that will bankrupt our country.
2) The war is “off the books”, not on the budget. There is no accounting by Congress. The “war funding” is a slush fund for war profiteering.
3) The “Democratic leaders”, such as Bush Dog Nancy Pelosi ( the worst woman Speaker ever) are helping to continue the War, or should we say wars of the neo-cons. They have failed to be truthful about the true cost.
3) The “War on Terror” is a fraud. Perhaps there are a few hundred “Al Qaeda”, but the Bushes and Bin Laden families have worked together for 25 years. The fraud is necessary to maintain a permanent state of war against an imaginary enemy. The real war is against the Constitution. The neo-cons will do to the US what they have done to Iraq. Blackwater could easily launch an “false flag” attack on Congress and then martial law.
marymccurnin @ 75
Link? Ron Paul..A fertilized egg is a person Paul? I think Dennis has jumped the shark.
Steve-AR @ 80
Here is the link, even has video. And yes we are talking about sleeps with Nazis and worships blastocysts Ron Paul.
Steve-AR @ 80
Here.
What’s weird is it says it was posted today at FDL at 3:28…
Steve-AR @ 80
To me there is not much difference in attitude between “a fertilized egg is a person” and “I saw a spaceship in the sky”.
marymccurnin @ 83
For me there is a major difference. I can overlook UFOs.
DrDick @ 84
Agree. Mucho agree.
Perhaps the solution is to morph the two and make all GOP talking points attributed to a directive from a flying saucer.
Saw many “Ron Paul for Pres” signs as I was driving to pick up TexTeen from a friend’s house.
Suzanne @ 86
Flown by a fertilized egg.
Suzanne @ 86
Frankly that was where I always assumed they got their ideas. You know, the saucer people talking to them through their fillings.
marymccurnin @ 88
named Rove
TexBetsy @ 90
R-ova
TexBetsy @ 90
I keep telling you, Rove was not born and has no mother. He arose through spontaneous generation in the primordial sewer slime.
TexBetsy @ 87
They’re all over my town. And this is outside Camp Pendleton, real Bush country one year ago. People have had it.
LoudounLib @ 91
eggzelent!
TexBetsy @ 94
;-)
TexBetsy @ 94
worshiping at the altar of the sacred sperm
Loo Hoo. @ 93
Interestingly, I haven’t seen any here or bumperstickers either. Surprising as Montana is prime real estate for his particular form of libertarian whackjobbery.
Suzanne @ 96
Say sacred sperm seven times fast. :)
DrDick @ 97
not bumper stickers. 8-10 foot long signs
Suzanne @ 78
Sorry, I did, it was due to a logjam with an old computer, and a stuck password. No sockpuppetry involved, and I had only posted once or twice before. I will be forced to use this log on now..,
formerly known as maxcat06
Suzanne @ 96
I still refuse to blame any woman (not even Phyllis Schafly, Malkkkin, Coultergeist, or Babs) for Rove. He is quite simply not born of woman. Perhaps from the rotting, fermented splooge of wingnuts flowing through fetid sewers.
Loo Hoo. @ 82
While that link is indeed titled “Firedoglake”, it actually goes to a Ron Paul blog.
Sneaky to get all progressives thinking that FDL loves ‘em some Ron Paul.
isit2009yet @ 100
thanks :) just for a day or so so the pups know you changed is all i ask for.
glad you delurked, fixed the logjam and welcome to the lake.
You are correct, the Democratic leadership is not interested in getting out of Iraq nor are they, out of Afghanistan. They act as though they are above the mandate and in charge of their own destinies despite the unequivocal result last November. They are as haughty and arrogant as the people directly responsible for the catastrophe the voters stated plainly must end. It’s a matter now of rinse and repeat.
Speaking of Iraq, anyone see this?
Iraqi Couple Beheaded in Front of Children for Non-Islamic Habits http://jonathanturley.org/2007…..ic-habits/
by jonathanturley
Today, Reuters is reporting that militants beheaded a couple in front of their children because the man wore Western clothes and was perceived as an infidel. (more…)
Suzanne @ 103
welcome
I’m wondering if Congress could simply defund any future deployments into the theater of troops but allow resupply and support to the troops there. As units came back the number of troops would soon diminish to zero. That would take all the thunder out of “not support: argument.
Another strategy would be to restrict tours to a single campaign. Thus a National Guard or other military unit would henceforth only have to complete their current tour. They’d take all their gear out with them when they left, unless that was transferred to another unit in the field or the Iraqi National Guard.
All this talk about how difficult it would be to pull the troops out ignore the troops are constantly being “pulled out”, while other are sent IN to replace them. Cut off re-deployment into the theater and you soon have everyone gone.
But it’s clear that Bush and Gates are already preparing a PR effort to attack the Democrats for not providing the full $200 billion supplemental. Gates is threatening furloughs and even shutting down bases (while at the same time maintaining the bases in Western Europe that were planned for closure). He’s going to start appearing on TV saying that Congress is making military families have no toys under the Christmas tree because they didn’t do the supplement.
Congress needs to come back into session and haul Gates before them and go through the line item budget of the Pentagon and ask “Are you saying that you couldn’t have suspended these tests for the Star Wars program in order to maintain these individuals in their jobs? Do you mean you couldn’t have deferred project X for a year? That the purchase of new vehicles for the Pentagon top brass couldn’t have been delayed for a year? That the office and staffing for the former Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld, couldn’t have been cut out?
The need to go through each and every expenditure and absurd wasteful Pentagon perk and ask Gates if these have higher priority than the troops in the field that he asserts are suffering, or those being furloughed?
Special session, the week before Christmas.
Make it clear that Gates and Bush WERE THE ONES who decide d who would be cut…it was their priority to do so in a glutted Pentagon budget…and that they chose to budget their War Business Buddies over the troops.
TexBetsy @ 106
thank you…I’ve been reading here for ages, since the Libby trial, but not posting. This seems to be one of the most active sites around.
aka maxcat06
and some good news!
Embattled Oral Roberts President Resigns
from ABC News: Top Stories
Oral Roberts Univ. President, Facing Accusations He Misspent College Funds, Resigns
DrDick @ 81
If Dennis himself has made any such statement, the other Democratic candidates should insist that he be excluded from any further Democratic candidate debates.
But how will the MSM report it?
c’ape, i like the idea of single tours of duty.
boosh with either veto it or attach a signing statement that as commander in chief, he decides who does what when – not congress.
cinnamonape @ 107
I don’t know how to ask this, so I will just flail:
If the troop funding were cut by an act of Congress, and Chimpy couldn’t find alternative funds, and he commanded the troops to remain in theatre…
Wouldn’t every senior officer walk away from the President?
TexBetsy @ 109
another right wing nutjob standing in the unemployment line!
it would create a crisis, but not sure the generals would manage to carry out a coordinated plan to get everyone home. would be a major catastrophe on ALL fronts.
OldCoastie @ 114
He won’t suffer in the least. The Roberts family has been milking the college and ministry for decades and has plenty socked away for rainy days. The gig as university president was simply to keep control over their cash cow in the family and to give cover for their high living lifestyle. Don’t want the rubes getting suspicious. Have to say I am enjoying the Roberts empire crumbling a bit around the edges. Probably resigned to try to halt the investigations which could bring it all down around their ears.
TexBetsy @ 115
An earlier suggestion that Congress tie the funds to withdrawal operations only is what I’m contemplating. Chimpy declines or veto’s and the Generals take a walk up the Hill with some very somber Gooper Senators in tow…
Nah, the Dems don’t have the nuts.
And ChimpCo knows it.
john in california @ 67
Bingo! The big three really have plans that would keep substantial numbers of troops in Iraq for their terms. All support having troops there to continue fighting al Qaida, protecting US diplomats (the vast Vaticanate in Baghdad) and humanitarian projects. Edwards may want to put a lot of troops across the border in Kuwait in a rapid-strike force to attack al Qaida, prevent “genocide” and the spilling over of sectarian fighting in the region…but does anyone believe that these troops won’t be in Iraq placing themselves in harms way? Without having “permanent bases” in Iraq…or will they simply have the new name “encampments” or “forward camps”…or maybe they’ll be “temporary bases”. And does anyone think that al Qaida won’t soon be targeting the bases in Iraq?
DrDick – I believe the taxman is coming after Roberts’ ass… hopefully, they will bust the whole thing wide open.
newtonusr @ 117
oy!
OldCoastie @ 119
Would make my day, possibly the whole year. I have been following their shenanigans since I was a kid growing up just north of Tulsa.
oh! NOW just came on my local PBS – I hope ET catches it – its all about the fuckery going on in Alaska…
cinnamonape @ 107
That’s exactly what my comment at @45 above argues.
I truly believe it is a workable and “politically” viable mechanism to end this war.
Gates retreats from plans to reduce US Military Units in Europe
http://www.armytimes.com/news/…..e_071121w/
http://www.defenselink.mil/new…..x?id=47987
OldCoastie @ 122
Not on until 1130 on KQED (SFbayarea)
Mad Dogs @ 123
what is to prevent boosh from decreeing no more troops until they have replacements. then we have a stand-off.
Mad Dogs @ 123
Janes argument, or suggestion, is the most logical, though. Dems hearts can’t possibly be in the throttling of the Executive, because they hold every card, and simply won’t play them.
And btw, nice catch in the HuffPo piece.
Suzanne @ 126
replacements = 6th deployment?
yikes! not a surprise, but just saw it:
But congressional Democrats have dismissed the warnings, noting that Gates also said there was sufficient money to continue operations in Iraq into February. Congress just sent the administration a $471-billion bill to pay for defense spending this fiscal year, but it does not pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush has asked for $196 billion to fight the wars.
This from The LA Times, November 17th.
Suzanne @ 126
Suzanne, do you meen “decreeing no more troops come home until they have replacements”?
Out of Iraq, Now! Woo-hoo, my Warriors are undefeated…
Suzanne @ 112
Oddly enough Suzanne, it is a Congressional right and responsibility as defined in Article 1, Section 8 to:
The fact of the matter is that Congress, not the President, makes the rules.
And I would hazard a guess that “tours of duty” is in fact a Congressional responsibility that has been abdicated for a plethora of reasons, some good, but many bad.
Loo Hoo. @ 82
There’s some serious fuckery going on here. There is a linky down below that video that says firedoglake but when you actually click on it it takes you to a Ron Paul website with the video.
what i mean is bush is told no new replacements for the troops, i worry that he will make a commander in chief decision to cancel all leaves and scheduled return home for all troups currently in iraq. saying as military leader, the current number of troops is the absolute minimum and that only as new soldiers replace the ones there will any be rotated out.
all right, puppies – jammie time for me…
‘night all.
Suzanne @ 135
Yes, I believe that is a valid concern.
Night OC.
DrDick @ 116
And don’t forget about the juicy scandal involving Mrs. Roberts and the youngsters. Don’t know the credibility of this site, but the story is young….!
cinnamonape @ 134
backstage knows and we are working on rectifying it c’ape. thanks
Suzanne @ 135
First and foremost, eliminate the backdoor draft, all the call ups and the automatic forced extensions on troops who’ve ets’ed or are in the process…
CTuttle @ 141
and do it quickly please!
Suzanne @ 126
And that takes us back I believe to one of Jane’s central points: Time to take a stand!
In my wildly optimistic moments, I’d like to think that Democratic strategists are holding off playing the “defunding” card until after the primaries, so that there will be a Democratic nominee who has a ready-made, politically-dynamite campaign strategy that says “No money for further deployments, so the troops have to come home.”
Those wildly optimistic moments are more frequently submerged by my steely-eyed pragmatic moments where I find my Democratic leaders to be spineless, craven, WATBs.
newtonusr @ 117
And there are no very somber Gooper Senators any more, either. They’ll all let Chimpy run the military right off a cliff before they’ll stand up to him.
11-0, WAC Champions… 39-27 Hawaii…
Suzanne @ 126
Do you mean “no more troop withdrawals”? I think that would be so politically inviable that there would be a firestorm of opposition…and Bush would soon lose the support of Congressional Republicans to block or sustain his veto.
Could you imagine a Republican Congressman or Senator having to vote against a measure that restrained Bush from extending the tours past 16 months under such circumstances? It’d be political suicide…especially in districts where there are major military bases.They’d lose the votes of not only the troops but of wives, parents, and the communities at large who depend on the money these troops bring in Stateside.
NIght OC. Keep up the good fight!
Suzanne @ 135
Thus justifying a draft.
Well, I think I will head out as well. Take care and take action.
I think of boosh as that wounded coyote jane wrote about in her back yard back when she was living in la. how dangerous a wounded cornered animal is.
unfortunately, someone, or a group of someones, has to go into the yard to restrain the animal so the neighborhood is safe again. our dems seem to be too scared of what he might do so they do nothing. meanwhile, that wounded animal with nothing to lose just gets more and more dangerous.
Suzanne @ 135
He’d have no money to send those who had leaves cancelled to “go out”. True, he could trap those already there within the theater…but since he’s already extended tours to 16 months for the Army it would be very politically explosive WITHIN his own party to do this. This would almost make a Webb-type amendment impossible to successfully veto.
I suspect that he’d extend the Marine tours to parity with the Army. But the effects would be difficult for the Republicans.
To soften the effects on the Democrats they could limit the deployments to one tour. Thus no troops who belonged to a previously deployed unit could face a second or subsequent redeployment.
Fern @ 148
he’d never do it… it goes against his something-for-nothin’ philosophy (or scam). He’ll just continue to ignore Congress and reshuffle existing troops. With under a year to go and an absolute commitment from Congress not to impeach him no matter what laws he violates, what’s he got to lose?
Suzanne @ 28
eg’s live-blogging was great. Also a huge personal blessing ’cause of my tv meltdown. I’m still not a fast woman, so I would have been flat out in the cold w/out eg.
marymccurnin @ 75
On the other hand, she looked great while she said it. And I love her accent.
I got the impression that all Mrs. Kucinich really knows about Ron Paul is that he is, like her husband, in favor of ending the war in Iraq. She mentioned no other issues, as I recall, and probably should have just let that question go by because I don’t think she really understood the ramifications of what she was saying. In general, though, she strikes me as a very intelligent young lady.
Did I mention that she looked great?
Fern @ 148
Successful draft would take a minimum of one to two years to get rolling, plus another 6 months to train the troops. Lots of pissed of college age and just out of HS potential voters and their families. Huge debates over “fairness”, women being drafted, exemptions, evaders, the wealthy getting off, etc. etc. etc. PROTESTS!
And then they couldn’t be deployed…since Congress had banned the use of funds for deployment.
new thread:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-youth/
cinnamonape @ 155
Well in that case, I’m wrong!
neurophius @ 137
What if Congress forced his hand and either made him defy law and hold troops hostage in a way even our own media and the 25% crowd could not ignore… It would be a whole new impeachment game or Bush would actually bring them home.
If Bush played outlaw on this scale.. Congress could impeach while funding anything necessary.
Ms. Hamsher, you’re incredible. There was not one false note. You were articulate and spoke with a voice that Americans welcome. What a contrast to all of the garbage which we are bombarded with elsewhere!
My sincere thanks. Love, from Dresden ……
the ongoing rape of iraq is a crime.
stopping the crime is fundamental to remediation.
peas!
cinnamonape @ 118
Here we are comment whatever and the same old lie pops up. The ‘Big Three’ are not in the same place as to withdrawing our occupation forces.
John Edwards has repeatedly said that he will withdraw all troops other than those required to guard the $300m embassy Bush built. He would only guard the embassy, something the U.S. does in every nation it has one, not staff any other facilities.
Yet time and again a commenter pops up with this lie.
It’s a lie folks. Go to Edwards website and see for yourself.
Now…
As to what’s really going on with the ‘Democrat’ Party’s failure to defund the the occupation of Iraq.
This has nothing, nothing to do with the troops and the Dems know that. What they cannot muster the political will to do is defund their ‘friends’ in the MIC who have been giving them millions for decades against just this situation; that is, the ReThugs losing control of the purse strings, and the current crop of corrupt Dems having been bought and paid for will never act against their paymasters interests.
Free Left Blogistan needs to realize that our Congress on both side of the aisle is bought and paid for by the MIC.
The sooner this happens and all the stupid talk about ’spineless Dems’ is replaced by ‘bought and paid for…’ the sooner we can get to work getting rid of ‘Sellout’ Reid and his cronies.
Wake up and smell the corruption folks.
Wake the fuck up!
If the Democrats fix Iraq they will pay an enormous political price for doing so.
If the Democrats allow Iraq — which everybody agrees is a Republican Problem — to molder then the Republican pay the political price in 2008.
That additional 800 americans die doesn’t seem to concern them overmuch.
Does anyone remember what the chimp`s approval rating was the day he landed on the aircraft carrier to announce his version of ” Mission Accomplished “?
Well done, Jane. You did great.
Nice job Jane. You were a breath of fresh air that even the fellow who followed you couldn’t destroy.
When will you do c-span again?
As a fan I was a little disappointed we didn’t get to see Jane tear the flesh off the idiots with her bare teeth. Aside from that, it was an excellent appearance, and you handled the questions, the interviewer, and the callers intelligently and with shocking diplomacy.
As for the netroots’ position on not endorsing cadidates in the primaries, I think it’s a big mistake. Can’t someone start a draft Feingold movement already?
I’ve wondered whether or not the sociopath in the White House would purposefully misuse funds designated for a withdrawal in order to score political points against the Dems.
I’m still wondering…
- Tom
One good way to make the argument that defunding the war would, in fact, support the troops: highlight those with military credentials who are making the argument, such as retired Gen. Sanchez and the folks from VoteVets.
Suzanne @ 17
and watching him i was moved to write an essay on male facial hair and its meaning, that’s how deep he was. Jane’s poise when departing and shaking his hand was a nice counterweight (oops) to his ample avoirdupois and the meatheaded thinking that went along with it.
re defunding the war, why does no one make the argument that defunding the vietnam war, which took FOREVER, in no way endangered the troops there?? But finally brought them one way tickets home and ended the mess.
Redshift @ 35
here here!!
stratocruiser @ 37
here here encore!! Impeachment is the only way americans will be able to hold their collective head up in the world again, as well as here at home amongst each other. i sense our dignity is permanently loss unless we throw these bastards out. Running out the clock is cowardly and Nancy should be spanked for it.
What’s to stop him from simply extending the tours of duty indefinitely?
5000 awols this year? all due to extended tours? hmmmm
I watched the YouTube. Hamsher and the FDL folks are the ones who’re out there in denying the surge. Bush is no longer around “twenty-five percent,” in any case. His trend is upward:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01345.html
But check out Noemie Emery’s analysis:
Nice try, in any case.
How hard is it to say, “We will provide funding for 80,000 troops in January and 40,000 in July, etc.”? Then to Bush, “How dare you send in troops you do not have funding to support?”
Just finished watching all 7 segments of your guest appearance on CSPAN, after some interruptions and errands this morning. I got home too late yesterday to catch it on TV, and missed the re-run. You did a wonderful job, Jane. You were very polite, even to the nutjobs, and your points and responses were well-reasoned and logical. You responded to each of the callers’ issues and did not avoid them. I hope thatt the callers recognized the difference between you and those of the MSM and punditry class, who ignore subjects they don’t want to talk about or give a non-response that does not relate to the question. Well done!! I think you may have changed some Republicans’ perceptions of progressives, at least, I hope so.
I thought your comment regarding Dennis Kucinich was interesting, considering your other statement on the support of Christopher Dodd, and other politicians, based on a single issue.
I say this because, I came across a very util candidate selection devise that had a STUNNINGLY HUGE MAJORITY of participants overwhelmingly picking KUCINICH as their candidate based on agreement/dissagreement with the candidates’ positions on the issues.
http://www.dehp.net/candidate/ to select the candidate who agrees most with you.
http://www.dehp.net/candidate/stats.php to see the results.
Almost 200,000 have taken the poll. Are there that many Kucinich net-nerds out there taking the survey 100 times each? I don’t think so.
As well, your observation that Kucinich does not seem to be getting high numbers in the polls, may depend on the poll sited: http://www.democracyforamerica…..s?&r=1
Another interesting point you might have made when the polling chart was brought up on screen, is how WAPO & Co. are so short on space/$ they can’t even include all of the official candidates in their polling graphic. And this is before anyone has yet to vote in a single primary. To me this is interesting when some of those not listed may not be polling statistically lower than say Richardson, who does make it on the graph.
This might have been a moment to comment on the horse race and big money nature of the election process, even on C-Span. (You did make a good point on Hillary’s potential debt to her big funders.)
I think the Democratic party would best serve its constituency(ies) by simply following up with conviction on the issues the wize American voters want to have addressed in the manner they want it (yes, based on polls) instead of obfuscating & passing the buck. Just a thought.
And yes, I do have a poll fetish. Keep up the great work!