Mario Cuomo gave a speech on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving to 2,000 of the most influential lawyers in NYC. The program didn’t give a title for the speech, but Gov. Cuomo repeatedly invoked, as if she were some kind of Catholic saint, “Our Lady of the Law.”
He called out “power seeking presidents” who engage in “efforts to throw off constitutional restraints” through various means. He decried in particular
“signing statements,” “secret White House task forces,” and the “unprecedented politicization of the Department of Justice.”
But of all the overreaching by presidents, the one that came under Gov. Cuomo’s harshest criticism was
“the seizing by presidents of the power to declare war.”
Cuomo said flat out that the AUMF “violates the Constitution.” He pointed out that under our Constitution the Congress’ power to declare war is non-delegable.
It was one of those smack yourself on the forehead moments. It’s so obvious now that he has said it. He went into some history involving litigation about the Viet Nam War and pointed out that SCOTUS has never ruled one way or the other whether or not the Korean police action, Viet Nam, Kosovo, etc., etc., etc. are legal or not. SCOTUS has neither condemned nor approved of the president engaging in war absent a Congressional declaration of war.
I lost count of how many times he used the word Monarch in his speech—but it was a lot. He said,
“There is a time to be silent and a time to speak. This is the time for lawyers to speak.”
Later, the following line caused quite a few members of the audience to interrupt the speech with spontaneous applause when he made reference to a march by lawyers that had taken place in NYC the previous week to express solidarity with the lawyers protesting in Pakistan:
“If US lawyers are marching in the streets in support of the rule of law in Pakistan, why aren’t we marching in support of the rule of law here?”
(meaning in support of the rule of law in the US)
He said that Our Lady of the Law had endured for 200 years because we had upheld her, but now a timid Congress was throwing away the Constitution with both hands and that
“We have no heroes. We are not even sure what we want to make of ourselves as a nation.”
which I took to mean that he thought somehow we, as a nation, were failing to effectively communicate to Congress what our vision for ourselves as a nation might be. Not that we aren’t trying, heaven knows, but it is obvious that our message is not getting through to them. Cuomo said we have to make them understand that we are after
“something sweeter than the taste of partisan victory”
The clear message was that he fully expected that it was the obligation of lawyers everywhere to speak up in support of the Rule of Law or as he persisted in calling it “Our Lady of the Law.” That he expected us to take to the streets, to the OpEd pages, the airwaves, and to every other medium available to us (I hope blogs count).
He even at one point mentioned litigation that had occurred apparently challenging the legality of the Viet Nam war. Unfortunately, he never mentioned the name of the case, though it was before a Judge Judd [sp?] and there was some intervention involving Justice Douglas. If anybody has clue what that refers to, I’d like to know. There may be some instruction in the history of that case that we can learn from. [Edit: Holtzman v. Schlesinger, 414 U.S. 1304 (1973)]
You know early in his speech, he went into how his grocery store owning immigrant parents were soooo impressed when he became a lawyer. And how they never wanted him to be “a crooked politician,” they wanted him to be a judge.
There is some prestige and deference that people throw your way just because you’ve got that sheepskin. However, that honor comes with responsibility. Shakespeare’s famous “first let’s kill all the lawyers” line was uttered by a character who wants to end the rule of law.
That character believes that lawyers are more than machine operators who know how to manipulate the cogs and levers of the law. We are meant to be its guardians and protectors as well. So, if you want to end the rule of law, you must first silence the lawyers.
His final call to action was this:
“If not the lawyers, then who? If not now, when?”



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zed?
Thank you for this, loosehead.
Justice!
lhp!
Fitz!
Now more than ever.
(Someone should remind KO that the investigation is not closed.)
single digits even after reading the post in it’s entirety
good for Cuomo for speaking up… I’d love to stay, but I gotta go and see if I can find some little petitioners trying to hide the Dirty Tricks initiative on their rubber-banded little clipboards.
LHP, thanks for the post on Cuomo’s speech. At what time does the population stop taking to the malls & start taking to the streets to defend our freedoms. It is not Al Q taking away our liberty, it is our own government & all those representing us in Congress who are no longer an opposition party.
lhp! Good Morning! Great post!!
Yup, we need a little more law and a lot less Shrub.
mack @ 4
The other night, was it Monday or Tuesday? K specifically pointed out that PatFitz had never closed the investigation.
However, do you really believe that Scotty put something in his book that he DIDN’T say in the GJ?
Do we think Scotty is crazy enough to lay his ownself open to an obstruction charge?
I don’t
looseheadprop, it is a rare moment that a read in the middle of the day will send shivers through my skin
I am moved more then usual by your post today…will go to re read to relive
very very nice
Good luck, OC!
Diane @ 1
And I got the Digg zed!
Diane @ 7
The irony is–last week a bunch of US lawyers did take to the streets of Manhattan and march.
But they were marching in solidarity with the Pakistani lawyers, not in support of the rule of law here in the US.
I have heard federal judges give impassioned pleas about how the judicary is under assault –IN THIS COUNTRY.
Frankly, though not perfect or perfectly consistent,
IMHO the judicial branch thus far has stayed closest to its constitutional mission and is the only reason we have not completely descended into non hereditary monarchy.
lhp – you give me hope. thank you.
do you know if there is an audio recording of that speech? i’d love to give it a listen for inspiration.
Anyone have a link for making reservations in Austin for yearlykos?
perris @ 10
Although I understand why Cuomo chose this audience for his speech–if you’ve got the partners of all the big law firms and the heads of all the big General Counsel’s offices all in one room together–that’s probably your best shot at getting some lawyer activism
But in terms of news coerage, it’s a bust. Everybody is shopping, and reporters ain’t working. So, I fear this may not get the notice it should.
looseheadprop @ 13
yep. it’s been lawyers and judges (even jag lawyers) who have, at least at times, fought back at great professional risk. can any other gov institution can make the same claim?
Seconded.
selise @ 14
I have no clue. There were some press there (like American Lawyer–oh, and Chris Cuomo from ABC, but he was there as son not reporter)
But I didn’t see anyone with mike ooms, so unless a recording was made off the podium mike…
eCAHNomics @ 15
new name is netroots nation, here’s a dkos posting on it.
Boo Radley @ 18
You should both DiggIt then so that it can be shared with a wider audience.
Is there a link to a print version of Cuomo’s speech?
Wow LHP!! Spotlight!!!
Good for Cuomo. Nice to see someone visibly hauling out the old terms for these things: “Monarch”. Not “Unitary Executive”. Not any other obfuscatory claptrap. Just plain ol’ “Monarch”: all powers and rights descend from “moi”.
Now if someone important will just point out the absence of daylight between “Decider” and “Dictator”.
And, yes, I’d love to see some lawyers scuffing up their shoes out on the streets.
dakine01 @ 21
Done.
dakine01 @ 21
Done
Mario Cuomo can be one of the most fiery, inspirational speakers in the USA. It has been a while since I’ve heard him give a speech like the one lhp describes. Hopefully, somebody like C-SPAN will pick it up.
selise @ 20
Thanks. I get a message that dailykos is undergoing maintenance! I’ll try a little later.
selise @ 17
Actually, yes. There’s my personal favorite Bunny Greenhouse, who was a procurement officer.
There’s a number of FBI and CIA types–some of whom get, ahem, an occasional mention on this blog. There are NASA and National Institute of Health scientists.
Our government wasn’t broken. Our government was working fine and had dedicated career professionals who worked side by side for years, never knowing or caring about the political persuasion of their fellows, thanks to the Hatch Act.
BTW, the Hatch Act was severely weakened under Bill Clinton. One of the first orders of business for the new president and the new congress should be the full restoration of the Hatch Act and the internal regulations related to it.
It was those regulations that prevented DOJ from coming apart at the seams during Iran Contra.
LS @ 23
How to Spotlight this post far and wide.
Thanks LHP, very well said.
sid58 @ 22
Let me go check the FBC website. The staff there is off for the weekend after the Wed Lunch, so unless Cuomo gave it to them before the event, I doubt it would get posted before next week, if ever. It may end up in the next edition of Federal bar Counsel news, but that won’t be out for weeks.
Powerful LHP. Alas, part of the counter move against lawyers is to make them afraid to speak out, in fear not only of their profits from corporations but also of further vilification (DON’T see Bee Story, where one of the cartoon characters calls lawyers “blood sucking parasites” – no kiddin). This sort of thing tends to intimidate one into quietude.
What also troubles me deeply is how some of our best law schools (Chicago, Harvard among these), have faculty spewing right wing pro-torture, pro-invasion, anti-FISA, pro-Guatanamo stuff “for our own safety.” Here too I see a central theme being the popular perception of Bush (and his right wing flunkies) as part of a pro-Is**** US movement in which war (to the end)against Isl**.
Thanks LHP. I’ve always been a Cuomo fan. And his speech reminds me how bummed I was/am that he never went more national, politically.
LHP — Thanks so much for reporting on this for us. Lots to discuss, think about, and act on here for everyone.
For folks who’d like to see wider discussion on this, the Spotlight function makes it easy to send this along with a note to major media types. And Digg gets it out to a wider reading audience. I highly recommend using both!
Hi, LHP, great post! So if I get you correctly, your saying that lawyers are a sort of 5th estate. Great to have one more safety net to catch us as we fall into a great morass.
I do have some questions, though. Regarding this really interesting concept:
I am wondering if, as facsinating as this concept is, the fact that it has been allowed to stand for several generations now without any successful or valid challenge to speak of, wouldn’t cause it to be looked upon as a sort of common law, societally acceptable mores, so to speak? Could you speak to this?
looseheadprop @ 29
i was thinking about how congress has done little (nothing?) to constrain the administration – but of course you are right… there have been brave whistleblowers in other parts of gov. thank you for the reminder.
Ed*ard Teller @ 27
I didn’t notice any video cameras. Though it’s possible, based on where I was sitting, that they could have been at the very back of the ballroom, but blocked from line of vision
i won, (he’s dead)
Where is Ossama Bin Laden?
Simple: where you think Ossama is hiding ?
In my closet !
He’s dead !
Whith president Bush on his ranch !
Congratulations! You won 3,805 BluBucks!!
lhp, I remember you talking about the protest in support of the Pakastani lawyers, very admirable effort. Sad that nothing is getting covered nationally unless it is about the presidential horserace or Brittany Spears.
I am not a lawyer, but I recently read the War Powers Act in a standard law textbook and was deeply discouraged by how the flimsy arguments against the constitutionality of the Act have long been accepted as legimitimate (Kmiec, for example, was cited). I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) the explicitly stated intent of the Act was to reiterate and restore Congress’s plainly stated warmaking powers in Article I. Yet some lazily asserted prerogatives of the executive due to vague tradition (as if monarchy and despotism weren’t long traditions) are given credence.
Regarding Justice Douglas . . .
Could it be Holtzman v. Schlesinger (414 US 1304, 1316, 1321 [1972])?
Holtzman was Rep Elizabeth Holtzman, who sued (along with some Air Force officers) to stop the US bombings of Cambodia. The district court agreed, but the appeals court stayed the ruling (allowing the bombing to continue) pending a decision at the appellate level. This being the summer, Holtzman et al. petitioned Justice Marshall to lift the stay and reinstate the ban, but he declined. They then turned to Justice Douglas, who agreed on Aug 3, 1973 to lift the stay. Four days later, Marshall reinstated the appeals court’s ruling, writing that he had been in touch with all the justices and all save Douglas agreed with Marshall’s original ruling.
Both Douglas’ original ruling and his dissent to Marshall’s order are stunning repudiations of executive over-reach and judicial timidity.
Another possible case would be Laird v. Tatum (408 US 1 [1972]), which dealt with military surveillance of civilians in the US. The court ruled that the plaintiffs lacked standing and could show no actual injury, but Douglas — ever watchful for individual liberty — dissented magnificently.
If these FISA cases and warrantless wiretapping cases ever get heard, Douglas’ dissents may end up sounding like the dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson.
Diane @ 40
There were 10 mortars lobbed into the Green Zone yesterday, and not a word about on the MSM.
Better Shakespearan scholars than I can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the motivation for the “let’s kill all the lawyers” line was to end a rule of law that the bottom of society saw as being used by the wealthy to screw the poor and working class.
That hasn’t changed. Companies and individuals who pollute, make unsafe products and cheat their employees all have high-powered lawyers defending their sleazy behavior.
The triumph of the American rule of law was that it was available equally to every citizen, rich or poor, of whatever race, religion or ethnic group. Of course, it never did work perfectly, but it worked well and often enough to keep the ideal alive.
Bush and his cronies have no qualms about enforcing the absolute letter of the law when it suits their interests – such as forcing wounded troops to pay back their signing bonuses for not fulfilling their hitches because of their injuries.
OT..but an interesting distraction for today
dailymail
LHP!!!
Thanks for sharing this. It is something to be thankful for! Were media there? It would sure be nice if the speech got some coverage in the MSM.
Bob in HI
Ann in AZ @ 36
Were you there too?
That was exactly his argument!
He said (and this is why I want to find out about this Viet Nam era case with Judge Judd) that if we take the attitude that by inaction or custom we can change one of the most important clauses of the Constitution–remember the power to declare war thingy was one of THE MOST debated parts of the Constitution and it was the taking this power away from the executive that was (along with posse comitatus) that was supposed to be the lynchpins that would keep us from falling into a non hereditary monarchy.
Cuomo argued that if post facto acquiescence (”oh gee well we’ve done it ten times now, so this must now be the way it is”) can trump the clear language of the Constitution
then in one fell swoop we reduce the Constitution to a mere set of suggestions
That might be an exact quote. I did it from memeory, did not write that one down
Shakespeare was about as far from a revolutionary as one can get- he always supported the standing “order”. If he had revolutionary rhetoric in his plays- it was put in the mouth of a fool, a man of pure evil, or both.
Ok, enough BS.
Here’s my $500.00 for the suit. As a taxpayer, I believe I have standing. if I don’t then my son-in-law is an Iraq veteran – is that standing?
Who’s the law firm and where do I send my money? ACLU?
What weight the governor’s words would have had if he were to have spoken them as the supreme court justice he should have been. The position was offered and rejected. He could have run for president and would have been a great one. He didn’t. He does speak well though. Always has.
LHP @47
It happens with language all the time. Misuse by the masses makes it acceptable eventually.
Scary that the same is true for the law.
moderator:
@41 I meant “I recently read the War Powers Act, with arguments pro and con, in a standard law textbook”.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 35
You know, one of the things that sometimes cheezes me off about how the MSM deals with greater blogaistan, is how often they complain that we don’t do any original reporting.
How the economics of the MSM drive things b/c they have to dig, dig, dig and that we are just parasites feeding off them.
So, maybe I can return the favor today and let some MSM feed off this little effort of original reporting. They are all free to use all my quotes. I kept my notes and will hold on to them for at least until I know if there is going to be a print or recorded version of the speech.
Anyone using these quotes, please make sure you give FDL props.
call me inexperienced, but how do I do the spotlight thing? I checked the link, but don’t know where to find lhp’s article to spotlight it.
Thanks
Bush showed his hand when describing what Musharraff has recently done was ‘not crossing the line’.
Clearly Bush has similar lines established in the US and he’s far from crossing them yet too.
He’s sprinting for them as his presidential mandate ends.
-GSD
Oh yay — I finally got my digg thing to work. Boo yah!
Chilling diary over at Kos…PNAC and the Bush Doctrine…some of the comments are amazing:
http://dailykos.com/story/2007/11/23/670/48190
Like the suggestion that we impeach the lawless leaders for crimes already admitted to, like warrantless wiretaps, and move on to restore the balance between the three branches of government suggested in the rest of the Constitution.
lhp — where was this held, and what if any coverage did the nyt give it? it sounds like a truly terrific speech.
reporters work on weds. tday, friday and saturday — every day of the week. at least they’re supposed to. if the press had been invited, i’d be surprised if no coverage emerged. the tday weekend is notorious as a black hole for news. something like this would have been glommed onto, just to fill a quarter of B2.
also, perhaps there will be increasing moomentum about a work stoppoage — something like the moratorium during vietnam. the people have to lead their elected representatives. again.
eCAHNomics @ 15
echan, here you go.
Price goes up $75 after November 30th.
LHP, what a fantastic post! What is going on with the feds trying to control New York elections. I’ve been watching for a post, but may have missed it. Thanks, LHP!
Lady Justice creates a problem in Florida.
My personal vision of Justice has two damp spots on her blindfold and a single tear running down her cheek. When will they ever learn?
GSD @ 55
I was deeply shocked at that. And no one called Bush out on this -including the Europeans as far as I can tell. Also, as has been noted here before, it is almost as if Cheney was advising Musharraff on what to do and say (a preview of things to come….).
Christy Hardin Smith @ 56
Digg important:
You do NOT have to give your real name. You can use your screen name, even if it’s a single word.
If you have already input your real name, go in under the privacy section and change it and save. Gee is there a privacy theme this morning?
Click ‘7 diggs’ [or whatever #]
Click ‘who dugg or blogged it’
Then click your name
Click ’settings’
Look over on the right, to choices, click ‘About me’
Erase your real name, if you like, insert nom de plume
Save
That’s it
Impeach!
Anybody listen to Rove rolling out Jeb???
I like what Cuomo said, but that doesn’t seem to be what is taught and/or cherished at the nation’s leading law schools now. John Yoo, for example, has a law degree from Yale and an appointment as a full professor at the University of California, Berkeley. I tend to suspect that they focus not on respect for the rule of law but on how to get around it.
looseheadprop @47:
That was exactly this layman’s impression (see @41) on reading the War Powers Act and the accompanying arguments.
LHP at 53 — I know. And I also know that the media folks use a lot of original blog reporting and rarely if ever credit for it. (Just ask emptywheel. That happens to her, and Jane and I all the time, just as one example.)
I am hopeful that American Lawyer will pick up on the speech, though. They do good reporting on stuff like this, and it ought to be right up their alley.
GSD @ 55
I don’t have the link but raw story is reporting that the president gave the go ahead for mushariff to suspend the constitution
I am telling you it is a trial balloon
edit
here’s the link
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1123.html
Peterr @ 42
Peter, Thank you. I’m gonna read both (and their antecedents–hopefully before the weekend is out) then I’m gonna ask Coumo. If it is the Holtzman case–she’s been kicking up a little dust lately too…..
And we had that Op Ed in Times the other day from Fritz Schwartz…
I think I might get out the tin foil because –dare I hope? Is this in some way a coordianted grassroots (if you can call a bunch of elites the grass roots) uprising????
Could it be, old time Dems have decided to ignore Rahm and Steny and just do the right thing?
Is that what the “taste sweeter than partisan victory” line was all about?
Be still my beating heart! Dare I hope?
Marcy on more subversion of the 4th Amendment:
Probable Cause
by emptywheel
I can’t say I’m surprised by this news–that some courts are approving government use of cell phone GPS data without first requiring the government to demonstrate probable cause.
(snip)
link
perris @ 68
Here’s the link:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1123.html
Looseheadprop thanks!
This is an incredibly exciting post, dare I be hopeful?
I so love this – Cuomo and lhp, who outlined this so well. I hope that, coming from Cuomo, this will get some coverage.
And yes, lawyers (and ex-lawyers) should be marching. let’s follow our Pakistan models!
Steve-AR @ 70
Is it about this (”Cellphone Tracking Powers on Request; Secret Warrants Granted Without Probable Cause”)?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
I forget where I found this, but since Madison wrote the Constitution and all….enjoy.
“Those who are to conduct a war cannot in the nature of things, be proper or safe judges, whether a war ought to be commenced, continued, or concluded. They are barred from the latter functions by a great principle in free government, analogous to that which separates the sword from the purse, or the power of executing from the power of enacting laws.” James Madison
Loo Hoo. @ 60
Thanks. Just completed my reservations for convention and hotel. See y’all there.
GSD @ 55
I thought Scarecrow’s post on that topic this morning was rather chilling. You know, kinda like Hugh’s list, when you see the laundry list of abuses, it really gets overwhleming.
Yet, Impeachment remains off the table
I read EG’s liveblogging of Jane’s C-Sapn appearnance earlier today and Jane said the one thing I really wanted her to say:
Impeachment is a process that begins with an investigation. You don’t decide whether or not to indict (or vote articles of Impeachment) before you have investigated to see if crimes were committed and whether you have sufficient proof.
So, when Nancy says Impeachment is off the table BEFORE the Impeachent Inquiry has been allowed to occur–she has it backwards.
LS @ 71
thanx ls
let’s just look at the facts;
the president and cheney have acquired more power then the history of planet earth
they know as a fact a republican cannot win the election in 08 unless there is “a miracle”
I don’t want to hear “they are decieving themselves, they thought the dems wouldn’t win the majority too” becuase they had a fix in but the fix wasn’t strong enough
so they know as a fact the next president is likely to be a democrat, which means it’s likely to be hillary
does anyone REALLY believe they are acquiring this power for the democrats or for hillary?
no, they are not
they have a plan to remain in power, they are tossing out trial balloons to see which one they want to go with but they are not going to give up power if they can do anything about it
and don’t forget, the more exposed they are the more brazen they become
hang on to your hats, we are in for a ride
The points that Gov Cuomo make remind me of an argument a friend has been making for 4 or 5 years. He believes that public officials in every branch and level of government have been allowed by the public to enforce only laws that they see as being in their interests rather than the public interest. When Speaker Pelosi said impeachment was off the table he was furious and said that she did not have the authority to pick which parts of the Constitution that she wanted to deal with. If she did not like a law she could work to see it changed or leave, but she could not simply say she did not want to do it. This is the comments of a retired state judge who trained new judges for years. He believes that many lawyers have joined in with the Republican crime family because they are inferior intellects, and view a judgeship as a lifetime meal ticket. He really hates them.
Thank you, lhp! The silence from Congress while our President provides more than tacit approval, nearly cheer leading, for Musharrif tossing aside Democracy of nearly 170 million people is deafening.
In a small way watching Bush Jr’s attitude with Pakistan reminds me of the time Bush Senior encouraged Saddam to attack Kuwait …and shortly there after used those actions as an excuse to invade/ bomb the hell out of a lot of innocent people.
Whatever the motives, the US people and Congress don’t seem to be bothered at all, nor mind the fact we are both funding and encouraging this fascist action in Pakistan. And now the US military is considering enlisting Pakistani tribal leaders in the so called fight with Al Qaeda. Let’s just arm and pay the Taliban to kill more of our troops while they pretend to fight each other and quite posibly initiate civil war within Pakistan.
I suspect Cheney and Bush are just beginning here.
Here’s hoping the lawyers and Cuomo are just beginning to stand up as well.
dmg @ 59
The speech was made at the annual Federal Bar Counsel Thanksgiving Lunch, held at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC. I believe there were some press there (most likely “American Lawyer” and the “New York Law Journal”, as well as ABC’s Chris Cuomo, but I think he was there in his capacity as son, not as a reporter)
It was a sold out event, the whole ballroom was packed and three levels of balcony seating as well. It was so tightly packed that in order for a person to get up from the table to go to the rest room-everyone from that side of their own table and the adjoining table had to get up and move chairs.
I’m surprised the fire Dept didn’t shut us down. Yet the food was still good!
LHP,
Your posts are always so informative and spot-on. Glad you were there to report on this. I wish Cuomo would be more activist because he is a natural leader.
perris @78:
I’m repeating myself, but this demands some rebuttal. You talk as if we invented the military junta. Musharraf, and Pakistan generally, have been very good at them on their own for some time now. Others can correct me if I’m wrong, but our preferred vision for Pakistan was always an oligarchy headed by a “democrat”, Bhutto.
I think Bush’s quote indicates genuine hostility to democracy, but the administration’s politics of supporting Musharraf strikes me as one of weakness, if not outright naivete. The Pakistani military’s interests are at cross purposes with our administration’s: see “strategic depth”, “Afghanistan”.
looseheadprop @ 53
looseheadprop, At the conference at Boston College, No News is Bad News, the accepted paradigm was that newspapers are supporting fewer and fewer reporters in the field. They called this the biggest crisis facing news today. (I think this included TV, as well. When the video comes out to the conference, I will link to it.)
When bloggers were brought up, those in larger publications talked about the need for larger publications to actually do newsworthy stories. This idea, that newsworthy stories must come from large organizations with lots of lawyers, went unchallenged. They said that large organizations which could handle lawsuits of millions of dollars were necessary to do great reporting.
They then referred to do it yourself journalists when talking of bloggers. They talked of the need for training in journalism. They talked of the need for seasoned editors.
All of this went unchallenged.
Yet here is a perfectly important story being brought to thousands of readers without the need for all that.
hmmmmm
Loo Hoo. @ 60
Sadly for me, I had to turn down an opportunity to work on the brief in opposition (too much work to do in my practice–I have 4 huge briefs of my own due by the end of December–what a X-mas killer),
But intrepid lawyers are working on the oppositions and there MIGHT be either an intervenor brief or a shot at an Amici brief.
Neither will be written by me–and it is KILLING me.
looseheadprop @ 69
If any “old time Dem” could call these two out, it’d be Cuomo. Best of all, he’d do it with a rhetorical style that would be gold in the YouTube era of politics. Steny and Rahm would be smarting from the tonguelashing and secretly jealous of it, all at the same time.
“So, when Nancy says Impeachment is off the table BEFORE the Impeachemtn Inquiry has bee allowed to occur–she has it backwards.”
Nancy’s not thinking like someone acquainted with the law or the Constitution. For her “impeachment” is a nebulous, subjective political concept, like “the economy”.
egregious @ 63
dugg!
Scary, isn’t it! No, I not only wasn’t there, IANAL even, but the first thing I thought of as I was reading this post was the term, “settled law.”
I wonder how far back in history did Congress begin to relinquish it’s power to declare war. I’m thinking Teddy Roosevelt? Was his war declared by Congress? How about Granada? The War of 1812? We’ve had undeclared wars and police action since I was a child. That’s quite a long time. I must be not far behind Mario Cuomo in age.
This is certainly an avenue worth exploring, though. I can’t figure out why this hasn’t already occurred to all those lawyers that have been sent to Congress? Or why it wasn’t pursued by some lawyers when hundreds of thousands of people were in the streets protesting Vietnam.
That’s exactly what I was thinking when the Pakistani lawyers demonstrated. Let’s import some of that here.
Yes, if Congress won’t put everything “on hold” till we get the Rule of Law back, then maybe lawyers can do that.
No more legal work till the Rule of Law is restored.
If lawyers really think about it, how can they possibly work if the law has become meaningless????
Ed*ard Teller @ 27
Mario Cuomo is a great speaker and, not only that, a great telly talker, too. On telly, he’s as good as Barney Frank, which is why neither he nor Frank make telly appearances anymore. The corporate fascisti have declared them Persona Non Grata Sopra Telly.
looseheadprop @ 81
thanks. i’ll look into this.
the problem with amlaw is, of course, that it’s a monthly. but the metro and legal reporters for the larger dailies all read nylj.
am surprised liptak didn’t take a shot at this.
Perhaps some of Mario Cuomo’s speech comes from his NYT op ed in October.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10…..omo.html?.
I heard him on C-Span or somewhere making the same points. He can be, I think, the most inspiring speaker living.
But apparently this is EXACTLY what has become of Washington. They’ve (both Reps and Dems) given new meaning to the term ‘lawmakers.’ They simply do as they please and are quite pleased as they do and they either change the laws to suit their needs or lie to cover them up.
BeBe @ 79
Here is a link to Netroots Nation:
http://www.netrootsnation.org/node/756
BeBe @ 79
speaker pelosi’s version of a “signing statement?”
Do you think contacting the Federal Bar Council and asking about the speech may help a transcript appear?
brendan @ 41
I am not a lawyer, but I recently read the War Powers Act in a standard law textbook and was deeply discouraged by how the flimsy arguments against the constitutionality of the Act have long been accepted as legimitimate (Kmiec, for example, was cited). I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) the explicitly stated intent of the Act was to reiterate and restore Congress’s plainly stated warmaking powers in Article I. Yet some lazily asserted prerogatives of the executive due to vague tradition (as if monarchy and despotism weren’t long traditions) are given credence.
Actually, as I read the War Powers Act, the prez *does* have the power to unilaterally instigate military action (but not to declare war, of course).
In exigent circumstances, instances of imminent danger, and/or instances which invoke the need for secrecy, the prez *can* use U.S. troops without even consulting Congress. His only obligation then is to retroactively report his actions to Congress within 48 hours of having done so. This is how I see military action against Iran going down and being justified. Congress then has a certain number of days (can’t remember exactly) to respond.
I have no idea if there is litigation on this matter (I skipped ahead in the comments here and don’t know if it’s covered above). I do know of at least one instance of this provision having been used – that being President Carter’s attempt to rescue the U.S. hostages in Iran in the raid which failed so badly.
brendan @ 83
The only reason Bushco supports Musharraf is because most of the supplies for troops, etc., headed for Afghanistan come through Pakistan; plus there is the possibility that Musharraf enabled other neocon activities via the ISI prior to and following 9/11.
Ann in AZ @ 89
wiki on Declarations of War War of 1812, Mexican War, Spanish-American War, WWI, and WWII are the only listed as having formal declarations. Has discussion on all the other variants as well.
selise @ 96
now that left a mark, selise.
Boo Radley @ 18
Done.
GREAT article, I too did the DiggIt on this.
thanks!
selise @ 96
As for Pelosi’s attitude towards impeachment: Well played, Newt.
brendan @ 83
would not bhutto now be under arrest for corruption if musharraf had not just remade the supreme court?
Great post LHP
Lead the way.. and maybe the architects can get off their butts.
doubt it.
LS @99:
It’s OT, but can you expand on that?
This is the most important topic of our time. The dismantling of the Constitution and the complete disregard for the rule of law will absolutely be the ultimate demise of this country.
Who is in position to get Jane’s data re. impeachment/constitution to Nancy? Surely there is some Law Clerk-type staff around her office who could put the information together. It is the starting of the investigation that is the goal: just the facts. Conyers and Kucinich have both taken some steps. Is she the only block standing in the way? Hope is in the truth, so that is why the investigations matter. There is plenty of legal talent and muscle to help her out.
dakine01 @ 100
That great legal mind John Yoo has had more than one editorial in the LA Times about historical and legal precedents for the president’s authority to use military force wherever and whenever he/she chooses.
Yes, lawyers have an affirmative obligation to
stand up for the rule of law.
Unfortunately, our power to do so has been seriously eroded over the past few decades.
The Right has worked insidiously to misrepresent, marginalize and mock lawyers essential role in our society. The intended consequence of this and the actual result is that lawyers standing to promote liberty and the just rule of law has been severely compromised.
selise @104:
I don’t follow your point.
I love your posts, LHP, just saying.
Were there cameras there? CSPAN? Can someone get it onto YouTube? Is Cuomo publishing the speech anywhere? How about a guest post here or the NYT or Huffington?
The People are The Fourth Branch. And it would be wonderful if Lawyers stand up for We the People.
If legislators fail, our Lawyers must stand up!
He went into some history involving litigation about the Viet Nam War and pointed out that SCOTUS has never ruled one way or the other whether or not the Korean police action, Viet Nam, Kosovo, etc., etc., etc. are legal or not.
yea well maybe that’s because SCOTUS does NOT adjudicate anything on their own – they only adjudicate cases. If no one challenges the government in a court of law on unconstitutional activity engaged by the government, the government can do anything they feel like including signing statements, ignoring laws, violating civil rights, suspending the constitution, and invading countries.
.
TheraP @ 113
I think the people are the roots, and the trunk. Pretty much the whole tree.
looseheadprop @ 69
While you’re at it, take a look at Mora v McNamara 389 US 934 (1967)
Mora v McNamara (cert denied)
Smgumby @ 97
Only if there is someting (like a recording) to transcribe from
brendan @ 106
Start with this, get the info and crosscheck:
http://www.dictatorshipwatch.c…..amp;sid=35
egregious @ 114
Ok. But we need representatives who sue on our behalf. Sue to get the Constitution back!
egregious @ 115
Unfortunately, the tree has some rotten branches that need some serious pruning and cutting back.
rwcole @ 48
Like all really good playwrights, Will Shakespeare’s work can be widely interpreted to express what audience members seen in it based on their own life experiences. Shakespeare mentions the law as a profession more than any other. Here are just two of many other quotes from his work having to do w/the law & lawyers:
Help, master, help! here’s a fish hangs in the net,
like a poor man’s right in the law.
(Pericles, 2.1.153), Fisherman
We have strict statutes and most biting laws.
The needful bits and curbs to headstrong weeds,
Which for this nineteen years we have let slip;
Even like an o’ergrown lion in a cave,
That goes not out to prey.
(Measure for Measure, 1.3.21), Duke Vincentio
LS:
Stop giving me vertigo.
Why are the States not upset? It is the United States, after all.
brendan @ 111
only that i don’t see bhutto as a little “d” democrat and i think there’s some behind the scenes stuff going on with her and musharaf.
bhatten @ 108
Marcy and I have walked this info onto Capitol Hill. We’ve done meetings. It’s not that the info doesn’t get to Nancy, it’s that she doesn’t seem to “get” it.
This is what I mean that we don’t seem to be EFFECTIVELY communicating with Congress.
Giving them info and explaining that info in layman’s terms doesn’t seem to be enough.
I don’t know what IS enough. Just what isn’t working
And the irony is…., many of our congresscritters are from the legal profession and are lawyers (I think the number has been dropping)….You’d think they’d understand this better than anyone…but apparently I think it boils down to the the aristocratic protection racket club and the best money our gov’t can buy rule.
Boston1775 @ 101
sorry ’bout that. it’s just that the analogy jumped out at me as i read the comment.
selise:
My understanding was that the bombing at Bhutto’s arrival was Musharraf’s rebuff to our advances.
pluege @ 114
While I agree in principle, the court can always find ways to act on its own by using the justiciability issue to deny certiorari, or to deny standing to people who obviously have standing, or simply by claiming it’s a political question and walking off the bench knowing they done the bidding of their masters.
That last bit may not have been true when people like Douglas were on the bench, but this whole crew is bought and paid for, even the four who didn’t join in on Bush v Gore. Those people had an obligation to the constitution to point out that the decision itself was an unconstitutional meddling in the election process by five ideologues who were complicit in a coup d’etat.
pluege @ 114
That’s why I am so curious about the litigation he referenced (and which Peterr may have located)
If we can get this stuff into court, the only branch of government that still has some marginal functionality may yet ride to the rescue and save the Constitution
And that’s what it is there for
brendan @ 128
i do not know how to determine who was responsible for the bombing or what were their motives.
but, it’s pretty clear who made bhutto’s corruption charges go away.
As a practical matter, impeachment if off the table cause there aren’t enough votes for it- not because of anything Pelosi said.
The political campaign is underway to determine who will take over for Bush when he leaves office in a year….An impeachment fight would run on for months, would be unsuccessful, and would look progressively more stupid as election day approaches. I can’t see it happening.
TheraP @ 123
Well NYS is a tad upset. Our Gov just got pilloried for wanting to make sure undocumented aliens at least pass a road test before they drive and DOJ is trying to strip away our right to pick our own godamned voting machines.
NY is a pissed off state
looseheadprop @ 124
Honestly, it is Congress that is not effectively listening. Your work, Marcy’s, Jane’s, Christy’s, Scarecrow’s – who am I leaving out? – is well laid out, referenced, edited by commenters, and repeated for the benefit of those of us who learn over time.
Congress and much of the Press has given themselves permission to ignore original, responsible, well researched reporting.
Why?
I just have three words for everyone: “mmmmm…cranberry salad.” *g*
looseheadprop @ 133
We’re using pen and paper in California. Debra Bowen is a goddess!
@ 132:
We need more pissed off states!
When it comes to the Constitution and Rule of Law.
egregious @ 115
It all started with We the People. We ARE the people. It is up to US to force change.
james @ 129
That’s funny/ Cuomo said soemthig about that too.
I’m trying to remeber…..
It was something along the lines that courts would be derelict if they tried to duck a decision on the declaration of war issue (and maybe other issues) by declaring it to be a politcal question b/c all the great SCOTUS decsion ( I think he might have cited Brown v Board of Ed) were at heart–politcal questions.
He said that’s what SCOTUS is for, to take thing out of poitics and bring them into law
rwcole @ 132
Your credulity at the “not enough votes” argument is dismaying.
Your argument is premised on two wrong notions. First, the aim of an impeachment investigation is not to win the 2008 elections, it’s about beginning the process of reversing lawlessness and restoring government under the Constitution. Secondly, the thing an investigation would reveal things that would interest the public, not to mention change the dynamics of a) the elections and b) the process of ending the war.
To your arguments I could have again said: well played, Newt.
rwcole @ 132
as a practical matter impeachment is off the table if pelosi has told conyers that if he begins an impeachment inquiry he will be removed as chair of the hjc.
i do not know if this is true, but when it was reported i called speaker pelosi’s office and asked for a confirmation or denial. i got neither.
Boston1775 @ 134
hypothesis: because the dem leadership think it may negatively affect their votes in the 2008 elections.
Cool! New Christy…
Your Holiday Shopping Conundrums Solved!
brendan
I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with. Do you think that there ARE enough votes for it? That’s an empirical issue.
dakine01 @ 21
I Dugg it, too, but what does that actually do? What “wider audience” does Digg have?
We can also “review” it on NewsTrust.
Like Digg, you have to register to use the site, but then you review the contribution, and NewsTrust posts it for its readers to consider.
Bob in HI
rwcole @ 144
i think the point is that you can not count the votes until after you’ve done the investigation.
rwcole @ 132
I’ve heard that there were no where near enough vote to pass Articles of Impeachment at the outset of the Impeachment Inquiry.
It was the televised Inquiry Hearings that made the Amrican people came awake to the danger posed by the imperial presidency and they, in turn , put pressure on their Reps to ge enough votes to pass the Articles.
Once the whip count showed that the Article could finally pass, the big boys had a sit down with Nixon andconvinced him t resign.
So, yeah, I still balme Nancy. She had a chance to be great, and she blew it
rwcole @ 144
Of course there aren’t enough votes. There aren’t enough votes to end the war, either.
Selise,
Guess we don’t know whether that happened or not? Of course BOTH may be true (Pelosi doesn’t want it AND there aren’t enough votes.)
looseheadprop @ 9
Agree 100%. I read good and very good and exceleent posts here all the time. I don’t think I’ve ever said “great post.” Maybe I have. But that was a really great post, LHP. Made me think – alot – about my responsibility. And I suppose that’s the sign of a really great post. Sounds like classic Mario.
Selise
Don’t you need a certain number of votes to BEGIN the investigation?
selise @ 141
They wouldn’t DENY it?
Well, that speaks volumes.
It seems Conyers needs to pull a Comey on Pelosi. Or more accurately, a Goldsmith.
Recall, Goldsmith issued a new opinion retracting one of Yoo’s and resigned in the same act. Which made it impossible for the WH to pressure him to retract it.
If Conyers were to call a HJC committee meeting put it to a vote whether to hold fund and hold an Impeachment Inquiry (thereby calling her bluff)
a) I doubt she would have the guts to retaliate
b) he would have done more in that one act than he has with the entire rest of his tenure as chairman
I do think there are enough votes in the committee–Conyers needs to blindside her, then he will have tied her hands–in the right way
lhp — Any further word on the state response to DOJ v. NYS on the enforcement of HAVA?
Makes me wish I had been there to hear it – thanks for this piece lhp.
The problem with Congress is that it no longer has any institutional sense of being “Congress” other than with respect to pork and earmarks. It is just a conglomeration of one group, Republicans, solely and impurely after pork and power, and one group, Democrats, almost solely and impurely after pork and power, with a few blips that appear on the screen now and then.
And telling this kind of corporatized Congress that we need something sweeter than the taste of partisan victory is the same as telling the Dems not fight at all and the Republicans to do what they want, reminding the Dems that fighting back is just being “partisan.”
For the “if not now” point, though, that – for what this nation means – was when the torture memos were first leaked IMO, although for me, personally, it wa finding out that the office and power of the Dep of Justice was being used, in the Padilla case, to grab US citizens and turn them over to a secret gov apparatus to be “disappeared” into years of torture and abuse, with no habeas, no sunshine and no truth required.
Monica Goodling wasn’t the Genie that won’t go back in the bottle – using DOJ as a vehicle to promote Pinochet-like disappearances and torture was. And when that was laid bare – to a non-reaction – that’s when we lost who we were.
That’s when there were, officially, no heroes. I know I wasn’t one.
Q. What procedures does the House of Representatives follow in the impeachment process?
A. While the Constitution outlines the basic process for impeachment, the specific procedures are determined by the internal rules of the House of Representatives and the Senate. To begin, the House of Representatives refers the investigation to its Judiciary Committee, which reviews the evidence and may conduct hearings. It determines whether an official impeachment inquiry is warranted and, if so, asks the House for permission to proceed. An official investigation follows, with the Committee deciding whether to offer articles of impeachment to the full House. The House then votes separately on each of the articles, with a simple majority needed to impeach the official. Articles of impeachment approved by the House are then presented to the Secretary of the U.S. Senate for trial.
The framers did not intend impeachment to be merely a way for one party (what the authors of The Federalist Papers termed a “faction” to cast an official from another party out of office. Rather, they saw it as a solemn, somber process, a serious activity with serious consequences. In any impeachment, there are many factors to weigh and much evidence to consider. Moreover, the process contemplates that due process is afforded to the officer who is subject to impeachment. Charges must be considered and made, a trial must be conducted, and appropriate proof of sufficient misconduct shown.
JML @ 153
They are working on the opposition brief as we speak, er, type
looseheadprop @ 156
Any insights or insider info you have heard and are able to share?
FYI: There is a Mario Cuomo speech and debate with Newt Gengrich, about 2008 election, delived in Feb. at Cooper Union. You can find it on c-span website, just enter Mario Cuomo in search, and select the 2007 Cooper Union entry. You can run the slider until you find Cuomo’s speech, follow’s Gengrich and before debate.
“Your work, Marcy’s, Jane’s, Christy’s, Scarecrow’s – who am I leaving out? – is well laid out, referenced, edited by commenters, and repeated for the benefit of those of us who learn over time.”
“That’s why I am so curious about the litigation he referenced (and which Peterr may have located).”
Holtzman v. Schlesinger is indeed the case referred to by Cuomo. It took about 2 minutes to locate using Google and Findlaw.
We know the good folks here have it all over the MSM in terms of research, accuracy, independence, fact checking, and (ahem) spell checking…..but what do you suppose the reaction would be — here, among other places — if the NYT or Washington Post published an article along the lines of “I’m a lawyer, but I dunno what case Cuomo was talking about — can someone out there find it for me?”
The framers did not intend impeachment to be merely a way for one party (what the authors of The Federalist Papers termed a “faction” to cast an official from another party out of office.
you mean like the republicans tried to do to Clinton.
.
The irony is–last week a bunch of US lawyers did take to the streets of Manhattan and march.
Kind of up there with the irony of Yahoo being reamed out by Congress, including Republicans, for turning over user info – - to the Chinese gov.
looseheadprop @ 152
AMEN! The whole purpose of an impeachment hearing is to determine if there is “sufficient” evidence. They have no trust in the process. If the same logic had been employed during Watergate or Iran-Contra, they never would have started.
IANAL, but to analogize with a grand jury: Before convening a grand jury, you don’t need evidence that you’ll be able to get a conviction, you need sufficient evidence that a crime has occurred. Only later, after you have heard the evidence, do you decide to issue an indictment, and that is when it is appropriate to calculate if you can get a conviction. Pelosi has the cart before the horse. Her two year plan for Congress stinks. This month was “half-time” and the Democratic leadership needs a new game plan.
Bob in HI
An impeachment fight would run on for months, would be unsuccessful, and would look progressively more stupid as election day approaches. I can’t see it happening.
this is the triangulation position and its pure crap. Regardless of political ramifications, time frame, and outcome, pursuit of impeachment (irrespective of whether or not it is likely to result in referral to the Senate for trial) is the sworn obligation of the Congress to pursue. The credibility of the Constitution and the government is at stake. The bush regime has undertaken more in quantity, and greater in severity impeachable offenses than the rest of the US administrations combined.
For Congress NOT to pursue impeachment is a gross and complete violation of every Congressperson’s oath of office to defend the Constitution and protect the American people from criminals in government.
For Americans to NOT INSIST that their representatives pursue impeachment is a complete failure to perform their duty as citizens of democracy to be informed, be watchful of their representatives actions, and require that the government adhere to the Constitution.
.
bobschacht @ 161
If Republican Constitutional scholars and John Dean are declaring Impeachment as the next necessary step, what more do we need?
Thanks, lhp. You give me some hope.
Can we sue Pelosi for breach of contract to uphold and defend the Constitution? Or for dereliction of duty?
I am currently reading a book about organized crime in Phenix City, AL during the 1940’s and 1950’s. It is an exact microcosm of what is going on now in the federal government. Selective prosecution, public money going to criminal insiders, illegal spying, accusing the opponents of their own crimes, public intimidation and humiliation of those outside the criminal circle, training children to continue the illegal activity, and so on. It was extremely difficult for people to stand up to the criminals, but they did it and received little praise except knowing they had done the right thing. It took years of trying before a tipping point was achieved and the rest of the town had had enough. I think that we are getting there and the 2008 election will hopefully prove it. People eventually realize that they are being lied to and scammed.
BeBe – What’s the book? You’ll probably enjoy – if you haven’t already read – Scott Horton’s info on the ties between current USAtty in Al – Leura Canary – and “Uncle Si”
http://www.harpers.org/archive…..c-90001453
Sounds like a great speech. Did anybody youTube it?
LHP,
I don’t know quite how to spin this.
It was the baaaaaaaaadddddd lawyers that got us into this mess. (Yoo, Addington, Libby et al)
~~~ModNote: Edited for content – allusions to acts of violence are not tolerated here, and may result in a ban.~~~
I will take the Feingolds, Fiegers, Bidens and Hardin-Smiths of the world.
What a better place it would be!
Are we bound by history to impeach this President and vice President? Do we owe it to the generations to come to focus on nothing else till this criminal administration is brought to justice?
Is Impeachment Our Obligation?
http://willyloman.wordpress.co…..bligation/
Mary, that is where I got the info for the book. It is “The Tragedy and the Triumph of Phenix City, Alabama” by Margaret Anne Barnes. It was published in 1998. I got a copy off Alibris which I love to get old, unknown books. The writing style is ackward, but the story is fascinating. The research was first rate. Old Uncle Si would have been right at home in the Bush Adm.
JML @ 166
How about failure to uphold her oath of office? How do you say that in legal-speak?
Bob in HI
Ann in AZ @ 36
IIRC the reason the courts have not found on the legality of Korea, Vietnam, etc. is that these actions were precipitated as a result of treaty obligations, Korea/ UN charter treaty; Vietnam/ South East Asia Treaty Organization; etc. etc. It would be “dicy” for the SC to be passing judgment on “legality” of an accepted treaty which has been given constitutional status through negotiation and acceptance by the Senate. Your “I am wondering …. so to speak” is a red herring (unfortunately) in legal terms.
What has transpired over the decades since the 2nd WW is the development of the ability of the president to address and respond to a sudden surprise attack of a known enemy in real and effective time. At no time was this ability intended for the president to declare war on another country. However, that history is become indistinct and as a result been conflated with the power to declare war itself, never the original intent of either congress or any executive administration until this one as the prior administrations had no ulterior or surreptitious agenda which called for such conflation to achieve their ends.
It is the current administration which is abnormal in light of all administrations preceding it. It is this administration’s hidden agenda that gives it the motive to mal-distinguish and conflate the war making powers for the ends of their agenda, the grab of ultimate power to exercise control of the nation.
It is my view that the deterioration in education, language use, historical knowledge, memory itself, and the very ability to function rationally are the driving forces that have allowed the current agenda to succeed. That and almost everything is heavily distorted by lies and other misdemeanor of meaning.
FWIW
TheraP @ 90
The idea of a strike is right, but if lawyers did it, a lot of truly innocent people could be harmed.
Maybe a better application would be to have a general strike nation wide of all working people not directly involved in the immediate care of person’s wellbeing. And all the lawyers could offer pro-bono support for the many lawsuits that would ensue.
Food for thought Bb
looseheadprop @ 152
if the report was correct, then yes – i wish conyers would do as you suggest.
but i’m a nobody calling from out of state – maybe that’s the message they give everyone calling with uncomfortable questions. i really do not know.
however, i do know that i don’t like not being told what is going on. and we’re not, in genera, being told truthfully what’s going on. that accusation, i think, is a fair one.
rwcole @ 151
All you need is enough votes in the House Judiciary Committee, particularly in the subcommittee on the Constitution (Jerry Nadler is chair), and I think they have that. What they need– and don’t have, apparently– is a green light from Conyers, who is chair of the HJC as a whole.
Bob in HI
Great words, from a great orator.
Does he have the shoe-leather to back them up? Or is he just inciting others to take to the streets and face arrest, interrogation, being placed on “terrorist watch lists,” “no-fly lists,” having a permanent FBI file created on them which might block getting any job requiring a security clearance, etc.? In short, can he walk the walk, or is he just another air-bag politician like his parents warned against?
I’m serious! Think how much impact it would have if Mario Cuomo (and other prominent Americans — like Al Gore) literally took to the streets in civilized, democratic protest. THAT would be leadership and would inspire, empower, and encourage millions of Americans, far beyond any words Mr. Cuomo might speak to a well-heeled audience of rich lawyers.
selise @ 142
Yes, that’s the Rahm Emanuel/Steny Hoyer thinking. They are convinced that the American public won’t be able to see the difference between the Republican’s use of impeachment to lynch Clinton, and the Democrat’s use of it to impeach Bush. They think it will be seen as “partisan.” But the purpose of impeachment in the House is to do the investigations, hold the hearings, and lay out the evidence. In the face of that, do you really think, as elections draw closer, that every Republican member of the House is going to cling to Bush & Cheney in the face of massive evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors? If I were the Dems, I would salivate at that prospect. We could reduce the number of Republicans in the House to about 20, I think. So I think impeachment in the House would get a sufficient number of Republican votes to make it look bipartisan. Furthermore, the House investigations would probably determine actual criminal conduct by both of them that would probably necessitate appointment of a special prosecutor. And I think the general public would support it.
But Rahm & Steny don’t see it that way.
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 179
not just emanual and hoyer – i think that’s speaker pelosi’s way of seeing things also.
looseheadprop @ 125
I’ve been hounding my Representative half to death about this, and he’s supposed to be a “progressive.” But he adheres closely to the Pelosi line, no matter what I say, or how I say it. And its not just me here. We had a meeting of 40 concerned citizens with him last April, and begged and pleaded with him, all to no avail. We’ve got an impeachment coalition going, and have hounded him at public appearances with impeachment signs.
I think Pelosi, Hoyer and Emanuel wrote a playbook for the 110th Congress a year ago, and they’re determined to stick with it come hell or high water. And their playbook sez, No impeachment. The leadership is locked into this position with a death grip, and they won’t budge. IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Bob in HI
sister of ye @ 44
“The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers” is from Henry VI, Part 2. The context is about how to create chaos, incite rebellion and keep a usurped crown. The characters who proclaimed that goal knew it was necessary to do, but were incapable of carrying it out.
In Shakespeare’s day, lawyers completed their replacement of priests as principal non-noble advisers to the crown. They were a staple character: functionaries, learned, sly, working for the king or patron, more self-dealing than heroic.
Lawyers were among the few literate men. They kept government records (who owned which land – the principal source of wealth and power – who was married to whom); determined and collected the taxes that paid for the monarchy; and knew what precedent and the law allowed and what it didn’t. Killing them all would destroy the records and rules of government.
The vision of lawyers as advocates for a greater, ie, popular, good is an Enlightenment phenomenon. Examples include Edmund Burke, whom Bobo Brooks frequently and wrongly appropriates, and the principal American revolutionary leaders.
That notion suffered considerable, post-Napoleonic era backsliding, illustrated by Dicken’s Jarndyce v. Jarndyce. Even Honest Abe made a packet defending railroads – the new titans of industry – from what we would now call personal injury claims. (RR’s were dangerous: a blown boiler or rickety bridge collapse left mayhem strewn along the siding.)
The tension between lawyer as functionary and faithful retainer and lawyer as advocate for those without power is being played out as we speak: Bush’s political prosecutions of Democratic contributing plaintiff’s lawyers, gutting of public defender budgets, attempted marginalization of the ACLU, etc. as “communist” and “un-American” (at least when seen from the corporate board room or Cheney’s office).
There are faithful retainers like David Addington and John Yoo. And exceptions like Glenn Greenwald and Scott Horton. They needn’t be at war, but as with the enforced war of “science v. religion”, they have been drawn into as another tool in the politics of hyperpartisanship. We need more Hortons and Greenwalds, more CHS and LHP, to out and correct Mr. Cheney’s simultaneously turning our democracy into a monarchy and usurping the crown for himself.
What I been sayin’. Not that attorneys want to hear it, including some posting here.
Shows that listening to commenters in good faith, rather that delivering a smackdown for comments inducing minor discomfiture, might be more fruitful. Can I get a witness? Mario?
Cuomo would’ve gotten to his point sooner had he conversed regularly with regular people as well.
not a knee jerker @ 159
You may have concluded that Holtzman is indeed the case, but I have not. The way Gov. Coumo described it he sounded as if he was referring to something that was common knowledge, yet I did not recall the history.
Lawyers do not memorize every case ever decided. We do research. I stated above that would take the time this weekend to read ALL THREE of the possible suspects mentioned thus far and their antecedent history-and if I was not yet sure in my own mind, contact Gov. Cuomo and ask him outright.
I think the NYTimes would prefer someone who did not jump to conclusions before gathering ALL the available information.
I did not consider 2 minutes on google to be the limits of good research, though there are occasions when that is all there is time for.
In this instance we have the luxury of doing this right.
So, I will take my own sweet time, read what I think might be enlightening, and then if I feel that my opinion is sufficiently informed, offer that opinion.
It’s the best I can do.
If you are convinced that you have found the right case and know all its lessons, please enlighten us. I am eager to learn.
not a knee jerker @ 159
Something else. One of the things I like best about this place is that everybody gets to contribute.
I assumed that he was referring to something that I was too young to remember, but otherwise might recognize off the top of their heads. Not something we all would need to research.
bobschacht @ 177
That is exactly what I’m hearing
The “let’s kill all the lawyers line” is fruitful to remember for another reason, discussed in a different context recently by Scott Horton.
Shakespeare used that line about 1600, just as Elizabeth and the Tudors gave way to the Stuarts. James I and his successor, Charles I, exalted in the divine right of kings to such an extreme that Cromwell led a parliamentary rebellion within less than fifty years. [No doubt spurred by Protestant fervor and the relatively recent ability of many people to read (of first, the Bible), which induced more critical thinking about who had a voice in society and government and why. The proto-revolutionary aspects of Jesus’ character were not missed.]
While the Stuart monarchy was restored within a generation, within another generation Parliament forcibly replaced James II and installed monarchs (William and Mary, after whom the Virginia college is named) who accepted Parliament’s voice and more limited rights of the king. That took place at the dawn of the Enlightment a generation or two before Edmund Burke in England and Adams, Jefferson and Mason here (all lawyers).
My point is this: recent political prosecutions of Democratic lawyers are not meant solely to deprive the Dems of funding or to elect their Republican opponents. They have achieved that. It is also to gut a principal social role of lawyers as advocates for opposition to government abuse.
KKKarl Rove’s favorite tactic is the personal, but behind-the-scenes, attack (however baseless) to gut the credibility of his opponent. (He often does this by accusing his opponents of having his client’s own worst traits.) With that done, it doesn’t matter how accurately they decry wrongdoing and abuse. People stop listening.
Mr. Cuomo needs to spread his message far beyond the New York Bar’s top lawyers. But they have the power and resources to help do that. And we can help.
Who @ 178
Well that’s where I got out my tinfoil further upthread. We suddenly have two very prominent ESTABLISHMENT Dem lawyers, Nick Katzenbach and Fritz Schwartz calling for Mukasey to release the secret torture memos.
You got Cuomo—certainly an establishment Dem—talking about taking to the streets to an audience of establishment lawyers—makes me wonder if they aren’t trying to get folks up outta their chairs
It won’t work if it’s Al Sharpton and Susan Sarandon and Mark Green, again. But if it’s Cuomo and Gore and partners from White and Case, or Sullivan and Cromwell, or Clearly Gottlieb (apologies to firms I left out)
That would be, in its way as powerful as that group of republican Senators going to see Nixon to tell him to resign.
If they can get prominent REPUBLICAN lawyers to join in…..?
Cuomo kept saying this was not partisan and that ALL lawyers should be doing this, Hence his “something sweeter than partisan victory” line.
Maybe something is brewing?
I don’t know, both I can wear tinfoil with the best of ‘em.
I have been wondering for a while where all of the professional associations are – the AMA, the APA, the American Bar – while all of the vile events take place with some of their members aiding and abetting. Why haven’t the licenses of the doctors and psychiatrists who have participated in, or at least observed torture, been taken away? Why hasn’t Alberto Gonzales, among others, been dis-barred?
i was given what for by a few fellow firepups the other day for using that “first we kill all the lawyers” line to mean that we should kill all the lawyers. i think i said shoot all the lawyers.
my meaning was intended to be understood as metaphorical and a bit ironic. there are a bunch of lawyers, Addington, Spector and Yoo for example that i was thinking of when i made my remark. there are many of them, a plethora in fact, who deserve our utter disdain for their skulldudgery and bad faith. the ones who exercise the levers of power to line their own pockets and entrench themselves in strategic positions of power to the detriment of our country. lawyers, as a profession, have a lot to answer for if they don’t stand up and challenge the Bush Administration on it’s many abuses of the law, it’s very criminal and treasonous behavior.
what they and Congress have not done is truly shameful.
looseheadprop @ 188
please, goddess, let it be so.
wigwam @ 65
In his review of Jack Goldsmith’s book The Terror Presidency in the November 9 issue of The New Republic, Neal Katyal, the Georgetown Law professor who successfully represented Salim Hamdan in the Supreme Court, makes an extremely important point about the ever-widening divide between law school and the rest of the legal world:
Short version: Yoo was Addington’s useful idiot. He made Cheney’s deranged ravings about the reach of executive power, as expressed in the Iran-Contra minority report — ideas that were, and still should be, quite beyond the pale — look intellectually respectable. He made it possible to think the previously unthinkable.
If you meant, by your use of the word “they” in your comment, to refer to lawyers in general, or legal academics in general, you owe apologies to about a half million people. John Yoo is an embarrassment to our profession, not a role model or an examplar.
looseheadprop @ 188
We can add to the list the National Lawyers Guild who, at their recent meeting in Washington, DC, enthusiastically passed a resolution to impeach both Bush and Cheney, including:
The NLG has a home page where you can find out who your local contact person is, so that you can join forces with them. In my case, the local contact person had not gone to the meeting and was not familiar with the resolution, so some local education may be required :-)
Bob in HI
I don’t know how organized things are, but we also have Cole and Lobel giving the LA times this pretty nifty graphic on how little the assaults on Civil Liberties have helped on the “make us safer” front:
http://www.latimes.com/media/a…..860990.pdf
earlofhuntingdon @ 187
Just got back from visiting & I must note that earlofhuntingdon, as he did yesterday, does a great job of clarifying the historic context of the playwright his fellow players often referred to as “our Will.”
Much thanks to an articulate scholar of that history, e of h.
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful news to hear, lhp.
The bottom line, as I believe the Founders saw it, with regard to the awesome power entrusted to the federal government in case of the need to commit our nation to war:
It cannot and should not be tolerated or accepted as “Constitutional” that Congress can more easily vote to authorize a beginning of war than to order an end of war, on our behalf.
Yet that is what “legislating” war (see the AUMF, based on the War Powers Resolution) results in: requiring a veto override to end war that was begun by simple majority vote, when a belligerent president defies the clear majority will of the nation and its Congress by vetoing legislation, where no presidential signature or veto ought to be required at all.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 is exclusive to the Legislative Branch – but today’s Members of Congress want to pretend otherwise, and refuse to assert their own Constitutionally-bestowed powers, so that today ending a war supposedly requires Executive Branch approval, even after a majority in Congress has already so voted (by ‘declaration’ as opposed to by legislation).
The strongest footing for Congress in a potential Article I vs. Article II clash about this in court would be an affirmative declaration of peace, or end to war, by majority vote of the Legislative Branch, that the Executive then defies. But Congress thus far refuses to exercise its power in that regard, and thus to pursue the matter in court as need be.
Here’s an analysis and explanation, originally generated by Gov. Richardson’s presidential campaign (but apparently rarely if ever mentioned by him), that spells this concept out quite clearly:
Http://wa4richardson.blogspot……ation.html
looseheadprop, you may find this link to a July, 2007 Congressional Research Service report pdf helpful:
Http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33837.pdf
It summarizes [with a noticeable Executive Branch-biased tinge at key junctures (i.e., with a partisan Cheney Party line - Yoo is cited in a footnote), I thought] much of the history of Congressional authority with regard to war powers, including cites, and it was apparently written to help Congress consider options for ending our involvement in and squatter’s claim to Iraq.
There’s also this brief recap, from a Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. site (he helped to try to challenge the Iraq AUMF in court, before the invasion was launched):
http://www.jessejacksonjr.org/…..03663.html
[The 1973 War Powers Resolution addressed and mooted part of the Second Circuit rulings that are summarized there (in particular by requiring “specific statutory authorization” in lieu of appropriations bills, as authorization for a conflict). Dick Durbin: take note…]
Jackson’s site also excerpts a James Madison quote favored by Senator Byrd, which includes this clear statement:
If Congress alone can declare war, Congress alone can end war. That is the “at least as easy to end as to begin” authority which Congress has abdicated in the face of irresponsible, violent men holding the office of the presidency.
Cuomo’s “sweeter than partisan victory” entreaty is vital. I think of people in Congress now as people who ran for office simply to be “party members” rather than to be legislators or public servants. They surrender their own judgement and will to the decisions of a mere handful of equally powerful (under the Constitution) representatives (Pelosi, Hoyer, Emanuel, Reid, etc.) who happen to have been appointed (by party members, not elected by the people) to head their party faction in Congress, and then somehow consider that “democracy” and a full and fair democratic process. [Or at least that it’s simply “the system” which it is both much easier to just accept, and futile to resist.] The Founders were so right to worry about political factions. We have seen their nightmares come true, before our eyes.
Jim R @ 75
And from pma’s link @ 93 (FYI, Cuomo also made a very effective recent appearance on Hardball to denounce the Kyl/Lieberman Iran resolution after it passed in the Senate, as I recall):
Precisely, Mr. Madison. Precisely, Mr. Cuomo.
Thank you, pow wow! I can’t wait for Suzanne and the Late Nite crew to get here to read this!
Synoia @ 49
It doesn’t work quite that way. They say you have to show your rights were violated or you were harmed. If it’s NSA spying it’s all secret, so nobody can gain standing, despite the obvious fact somebody’s rights are being violated.
Another situation which is similar is when the court recently knocked down affirmative action as being prejudicial and therefore not “equal treatment”. Of course, they’re saying there is no direct proof that the blacks (of today) as a group have been harmed and therefore there is no cause to ‘provide relief’ to any individual or group.
By denying standing they deny justice and take us one step closer to complete destruction of our Constitution.
I’d like to see the next Dem administration warn each and every state in the union that they have to support equal treatment under the law by providing substantially equal funding for each school child in their state.
On the voting front, a Dem administration could demand ‘equal treatment’ by requiring that each and every precinct in a state use exactly the same voting method. It has to be equal for all and verified as effective or else the SCOTUS might disqualify the vote as they did in Florida (Bush v. Gore, 2000).
Incidentally, why was it “Bush v. Gore” rather than “Bush v. State of Florida”? Gore wasn’t preventing Bush from doing anything? It was the state of Florida which supposedly was allowing the recount which Bushies thought might take away Dubya’s ‘presumed victor’ status.
If ‘equal treatment’ is demanded by this court, then it should be done with great vigor.
wigwam @ 65
Maybe Cuomo should be AG.
brendan @ 128
Don’t disregard the idea that our people may have suggested to Bhutto that she go back and then suggested to Musharref that he off her, so there’ll be no resurgent democratic process over there.
Don’t forget how low they will go.
looseheadprop @ 188
He could certainly talk to Bruce Fein.
Being on this administration list for standing for the US Constitution is a badge of Honor and we should all be jumping on it. Remember the elf who bragged about his pot of gold under the tree with the yellow bandana in the forrest, so his remedy for protecting it was to put a yellow bandana on every tree. If we believe citizens rights are being wronged then it is foolishness to stand by and wait for our turn. The National Lawyers Guild and Mario Cuomo are leading the way to Impeachment process for known crimes, who will be found responsible is up to the Impeachment process for which it was designed. We are a people and our will should be implemented by our elected officials when that is not happening the US Constitution prevails. When it is well known such Impeachment action will be springboarded by criminal behavior by the Executice branch the risk will outweigh the percieved gain. Without penalty where is the prevention?