Today’s NYT lead editorial is not happy with the Democrats’ immigration strategy:
The natural allies of immigrants have been cowed into mumbling or silent avoidance. The Democrats’ chief strategist, Representative Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, went so far as to declare immigration the latest “third rail of American politics.” This profile in squeamishness was on full display at the Democratic presidential debate last week in Las Vegas, when Wolf Blitzer pressed the candidates for yes-or-no answers on driver’s licenses and Mrs. Clinton, to her great discredit, said no.
…But the wilderness of anger into which Mr. Tancredo helped lead America is not where the country has to be on this vitally important issue, nor where it truly is.
(…)
The National Immigration Forum has compiled nearly two dozen polls from 2007 alone that show Americans consistently favoring a combination of tough enforcement and earned legalization over just enforcement. Elections confirm this. Straight-talking moderates like Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona and Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico thrive in the immigration crucible along the southern border. Those who obsess about immigration as single-issue hard-liners, like the Arizonans J. D. Hayworth and Randy Graf, have disappeared, booted by voters. Voters in Virginia this month rejected similar candidates and handed control of the State Senate to Democrats.
It may not be “amnesty” that gets Americans worked up as much as inaction. They seem to sense the weakness and futility in the enforcement-only strategy, the idea of tightening the screws on an informal apartheid system until it is so frightening and hopeless that millions of poor people pack up and leave.
Not only is immigration reform the morally right and compassionate thing to do; not only is it the practical and sensible thing to do; it’s also the politically smart thing to do. The American people are ready for it, and the Hispanic population is growing. The demonization of immigrants may play well with the Republican base, but it’s more and more of a loser outside of it. The anti-immigration ship is sinking, but Rahm and Shuler want to jump on it – and take the rest of the party with them.
Consider also Athenae’s great post about the "embarrassment squick" of watching Democrats talk big and act small, again and again (it’s brilliant – go read it, I’ll wait). On issue after issue, the Democrats pull their punches or refuse to fight at all.
Part of it is the Democratic leadership’s fanciful belief in a pro-war, pro-warrantless-wiretapping, pro-torture, pro-corporation, and anti-immigration political "middle," and part of it is their reluctance to pick fights that they can’t win. How many times has Harry Reid thrown up his hands and refused to bring a bill to a vote because he didn’t have 60 votes? How many times has the leadership watered down a bill to attract enough Republicans and Bush Dogs to pass? Where my articles of impeachment at?
The reason that the American public is disgusted with congressional Democrats isn’t that they see them failing to stop Dubya’s rampage against the Constitution and human decency, it’s that they don’t see them even trying. It’s very simple: The Democrats should very loudly go after the war and all the rest with everything they’ve got, and force the Republicans to bury themselves under mountains of bad votes. Yes, the Republicans may defeat everything the Democrats throw at them, but come election time they’ll have to explain why they voted to prolong the war, and to give unprecedented power to the worst president in history. Any Bush Dogs want to stab the leadership in the back, tell them they’re on their own in the primaries.
Yeah, I’m sure there will be a lot of hurt feelings and resentment, but I really don’t care. People are dying for nothing, our Constitution is getting shredded, our economy is tanking and our global reputation is in the toilet. A few ruffled feathers in Congress and disapproving clucks from Broderella are a small price to pay to get our country back.
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Hello.
Hiya, Nux. Long time no see.
Eli!
hiya Eli! Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.
Hiya, CTut! Hiya, LL!
It has been a long time.
You still have your own blog?
I lost all of my bookmarks a while back..
hey-now…
F*ck Rahm…
EPU’d – I knew that grinding of the wheels meant something!
Richmond @ 103
Bustednuckles @ 6
Sure do – just click me and you’ll see my mom kicking ass and taking names.
That last paragraph is a perfect synopsis.
This false framing of “bipartisanship” was intentionally developed 20-30 years ago, and we now have a whole generation of adults that grew up with a Conglomerate Media force feeding this to them their entire lives.
The netroots came along just in time. I was starting to worry it might be too late.
Excellent post, Eli!
Just a quick drive-by to say hi to the FirePups. *waves*
yep!
Busted!
You the dood.
Now, I’ll read.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 12
Aloha, NDFG!
Eli rocks and that’s the truth.
The freakin R’s throw a damn hissy fit and scream and cry every time the Dems try to do something.
Rove the other day said (paraphraseing)
the dems need to quit attacking the R’s and try to come together on the issues that need to be handled for America.
In other words, quit being so mean to us and get down on your knees like we are used to and we will do the same thing to you again, just like last time, except we’ll be nicer about it.
I wanted to throw a brick at my only TV.
I agree, the Dems need to be loud, get in their grill loud, and dare anybody to double cross them at their own peril.
Thanks, guys. Rahm’s pursuit of Republican immigration policy is just an amazing manifestation of the Democrats’ political deathwish.
CTuttle @ 15
Aloha! Did you n the family have a good T-day? We did, marred slightly by one (but only one) wing-nuttish brother who started frothing at the mouth about immigration. Not one other extended family member has forgotten we’re descended from immigrants.
Eli, I like your Mom’s attitude.
Bookmarked, again.
The problem with the Dems is that they actually take a strong positiion, and then they consistently cave. They don’t cave because of votes…they just cave. All anyone can remember is the caving. I don’t think they are very smart. D’oh….
Grrrr!
Bustedknuckles — you might think about using an online bookmarks service like del.icio.us; that way if you have a crash of some sort that eats your bookmarks on your PC, you still have them in the ether.
Polls show that
What does that mean? That Americans don’t favor “just” enforcement? Or that we don’t favor mere enforcement?
C’mon, Times, don’t let your writing get as slipshod as your political reporting.
LS @ 21
I think Arlen Specter might be contagious.
Or else 70% of the population isn’t enough for them.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 19
How we forget our roots… It was alright, I was disappointed my Grandma and Mom bowed out…
The “Signature” of the Iraq war will be hundreds of thousands of veterans with (progressive?) brain damage.
“20,000 vets’ brain injuries not listed in Pentagon tally”
usatoday
The 20k is just since May ‘06 and is incomplete data. The total is estimated to be 150k, which is probably way too low an estimate.
Rove on Charlie Rose a couple of nights ago.. blamed Congress for the war in Iraq. He said the AUMF vote forced Bushco to invade earlier than they wanted and Congress should have never voted on the AUMF at all.. just leave it to the unitary executive, I guess.
Charlie never challenged him on those points.
Great Post, Eli! You said On issue after issue, the Democrats pull their punches or refuse to fight at all.
Sure enough, they get their next chance this coming week. On this issue in particular, one never knows whose tune Rahm will dance to, right? Same with the Dem leadership. When it comes to this, you never know what side they’ll sympathize with…
Richmond – I can’t, for the life of me, figure out what is going on with the signature gathering… they need just a little bit less than a half million signatures, but their presence is awful spotty… just weird that I couldn’t find anyone today… are they going to somehow dummy up the signatures?
I wouldn’t put anything past these guys.
Thanks Rayne.
I will have to try that later.
The Dems deserve disapproval, and the Repukes deserve much more disapproval than the Dems. But, the American people don’t deserve to lose our country to the Homelandians, and the Dems, who purportedly care and represent the majority opinion, just keep letting it slip away….I’m sick of it!! What a tragedy.
Eureka Springs @ 27
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Poor Bushie – they forced a gun into his hands, and he just *had* to shoot it.
Eureka Springs @ 27
Thats where I was talking about above.
Many curse words per episode.
Steve-AR @ 26
Booman has an excellent post…
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…../123558/71
Stuart Eugene Thiel @ 23
That is that other country, Homelandia. We don’t live there, we live here in the United States of America. We have a Constitution. Homelandia just has fake opinion polls.
LS @ 21
I’ve always just taken it as they’re in on “the game.” They run as Dems specifically to keep the Party neutered from within, and keep mega-Business, which most are invested in, insulated from taxes and regulations. It’s all very calculated and intentional, where they throw Liberals just enough bones for us to keep voting them in.
This has been a theory of mine for 15 years, and nothing has been done to change my opinion. In fact, this last year with Reid and Pelosi have proven it for me.
Of course, maybe those rabies have inflicted this lamb so much I can’t see straight anymore.
Rove trying to rewrite history and Rose is like, Here, use my pen!
Jackass.
Eli @ 24
He is one sick piece of work, isn’t he.
As for the Dems and this immigration issue, first off, Rahm needs to be muscled out and silenced.
Then they need to stand up to the corporate whores who are giving them all these damn perks and contributions for once and start ENFORCING the damn laws on the books for the employers who are greasing this wheel.
Eli @ 24
He needs to be Lamonted.
Any multi-millionaire Liberals out there looking for something to do?
bonkers @ 36
I have a theory that their “centrism” on other stuff is a smokescreen for their pro-corporate agenda.
“No, we’re not corporate shills! It’s just part of our overall strategy to attract moderate voters!”
I don’t remember where I read it yesterday, maybe it was here; and I don’t even know if it was even snark, but, I read that W was a crossing guard in school, and the crossing guard person said that he almost caused two serious accidents, so they used him as sort of a “fake” traffic guard or somethin’. It was funny, but horrifying, at the same time.
It was a premonition!!!
Aaaaaaahhhhhh…..
OldCoastie @ 29
The question is who is going to certify these signatures if challenged, your new Dem. Secretary of State?
Jane Harman, (Changed by primary scare? Yea right.) Is back to her old ways with this Bill which passed 404-6
(snip)
“With overwhelming bipartisan support, Rep. Jane Harman’s ‘Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act’ passed the House 404-6 late last month and now rests in Sen. Joe Lieberman’s Homeland Security Committee. Swift Senate passage appears certain,” write Ralph E. Shaffer and R. William Robinson for the Baltimore Sun. “Not since the ‘Patriot Act’ of 2001 has any bill so threatened our constitutionally guaranteed rights.”
Harman’s “proposed commission is a menace through its power to hold hearings, take testimony and administer oaths, an authority granted to even individual members of the commission—little Joe McCarthys—who will tour the country to hold their own private hearings. An aura of authority will automatically accompany this congressionally authorized mandate to expose native terrorism.”
Ms. Harman’s proposal includes an absurd attack on the Internet, criticizing it for providing Americans with “access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda,” and legalizes an insidious infiltration of targeted organizations. The misnamed “Center of Excellence,” which would function after the commission is disbanded in 18 months, gives the semblance of intellectual research to what is otherwise the suppression of dissent.
While its purpose is to prevent terrorism, the bill doesn’t criminalize any specific conduct or contain penalties. But the commission’s findings will be cited by those who see a terrorist under every bed and who will demand enactment of criminal penalties that further restrict free speech and other civil liberties. Action contrary to the commission’s findings will be interpreted as a sign of treason at worst or a lack of patriotism at the least.
While Ms. Harman denies that her proposal creates “thought police,” it defines “homegrown terrorism” as “planned” or “threatened” use of force to coerce the government or the people in the promotion of “political or social objectives.” That means that no force need actually have occurred as long as the government charges that the individual or group thought about doing it.
(snip)
link
LS @ 42
If only he could just be a “fake” president, too. Then again, maybe he is, but the real power is even worse…
D’oh! Quick! Get that border fence up, stat!
Don’t want dem “illegals” helping citizens in distress, oh, no siree!
FunnyDiva
Eli, I have to ask if you had a bowl of Wheaties before typing up this post?
ok, here’s my current working hypothesis for you-all to tear apart.
the dems (not all – but most of the congressional leadership) don’t want to win those fights. they are counting on an overwhelming rejection of the republicans in nov 2008 – and they figure that can only work if the damage bushco is doing is not contained.
so they are involved in a very delicate balancing act – it must appear to us dfh that they are fighting but that they are loosing…. and in times past, i think this would have worked. what they didn’t count on though, was that we are paying attention (especially c-span and congressional hearings) and we have the toobz to communicate with each other. so we know they are faking it.
this has them pissed off – we’re supposed to be their supporters. what the hell are we doing calling them on their kabuki? let alone protesting outside their homes, at their offices and in congressional hearings?
… ok, that’s my hypothesis. please tell me how i have it all wrong.
Eureka Springs @ 47
I should have; maybe I would have gotten it in on time.
Eli @ 41
My theory is that Pelosi is full of herself, because she’s the first female House Speaker, and she is all about legacy (I think she’s very egotistical personally) and doesn’t want to be known throughout time as an “impeacher” or a biatch. Regarding Reid…they’ve got some dirt on him. JMHO. They are the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time in history, unfortunately for us.
Eli @ 49
No pressure.
Really.
/snark
And happy belated Thanksgiving to all Firepups. Front pagers and commenters alike, I’m thankful for all of you.
FunnyDiva
selise, i don’t believe they’re conniving enough for that kind of strategy. just greedy and power-hungry.
selise @ 48
I think this is a very real possibility, but it’s an incredibly stupid strategy. If they fight and *win*, they’re heroes. If they fight and lose, all of those issues are still on the table, but the Dems don’t look like assholes.
Happy post-Turkey day to you as well Funny Diva
Eli @ 45
Agree.
TexBetsy @ 53
And re-puggy whipped…
FunnyDiva
Eli @ 41
Yes, that is absolutely it. This last year of “Dem leadership” has proven it IMO.
Remember all the tough talk from many of these people before the ‘06 elections? Especially Conyers. It was sounding like they were gonna come in a clean house immediately. Now, after nearly a yearof us being patient and trusting of them, and thousands more unecessary deaths in Iraq, Pelosi, Harold and sadly Conyers regularly chastise us and speak about us with bitter disdain.
It’s all out in the open y’all. It’s up to us to do something about. Game On!!!
bonkers @ 36
i do think, policy-wise, the dem leadership seems to have more agreements with bushco than with us. but that doesn’t stop them from wanting to win elections – hence the bones we get thrown to us.
egregious @ 43
eg – I’m not sure – the Sec of State I think issues the certification, but the counties’ registrars have something to do with it…
Eli @ 41
ding ding ding!
selise @ 48
Not far off, Selise! What hasn’t permeated into their dense heads is the fact Congress has consistently ranked below Shrub’s approval ratings… Hmmm… I wonder why?
Pelosi is rich because of her husband’s dealings. She doesn’t need the money. She is egocentric.
TexBetsy @ 53
ok… but then how to explain this interview?
OldCoastie @ 60
Need to research this in advance. What are the next obstacles?
Eli @ 54
i agree it’s stupid…. maybe it wasn’t 10-15 years ago, but for today it is – because most of their base sees right through them.
Do any pollsters ask WHY there is anger with Congress?
selise @ 48
I think that sums it up..every move is geared toward ‘08..they are scared shitless that any effective move to oppose Bush could be followed by another attack on the “Homeland” and resulting in Thugs keep the WH. The problem is how much more of the Constitution can be torn up in the next 12 months and still have anything worth saving in ‘08? I think the percentage of the electorate in play is <10%.
selise @ 66
I believe it was The Daily Show that had one of the correspondents explaining his strategy of allowing his opponent in a fight to keep punching him, waiting for the moment when he would miss and accidentally knock himself out.
LS @ 50
Well, if that is true about Nancy “Impeachment is off the table” Pelosi, and she somehow thinks that she’s been the “break the glass ceiling” for females in Congress, then I think she’s going to be severely disappointed.
I think the message that has come out of Nancy and Condi and all of those other females that Bush assigned to high level jobs is…that women are incompetant. The problem is that THESE women are incompetant at leadership – not that ALL women are incompetant.
But after the cleanup, I think you are going to see many fewer women in leadership positions in DC because of the damage that Nancy and Condi et al. have done.
selise @ 64
“September is fraught with meaning for us – it’s everything.”
Oh, Pleeeeease Nancy…get a life. It’s November, and you are but a nit, in fact, you are fraught with friggin’ nits.
She is an ego freak.
It seems to me what we have in power is what’s left of DLC. If I recall, Clinton did very little to build the party up outside of the DLC. When he left office, there was very little support outside of the DC establishment for true Democratic principles.
Thanks to Howard Dean and his 50 state strategy we have a chance to influence the future. We’re not going away and it going to take some more time to turn the tide.
I could be wrong about the state of the party when Clinton left office, I wasn’t following politics too closely then.
Toby Wollin @ 70
Unfortunately, the same could be said of Congressional Democrats as a whole.
Steve AR said -
And just what makes you think constitutional restoration will be on the corpratist congressional agenda after 11-08?
Millineryman @ 72
Clinton legitimized the DLC and gave it credibility. He won because of his charisma and ability to connect with people, but the DLC touted it as proof of the brilliance of their “triangulation” strategy.
LS @ 71
maybe so, that could explain alot…. but even if it is so, it shouldn’t matter – i think most politicians are a big ego freakish. the problem is when it gets in the way of doing the basics needed by the country.
i’ve been trained to expect the Rs not to act in the country’s best interest (at least as i understand it)… but i haven’t, yet, learned that lesson for the Ds. as i result, i keep being shocked and outraged.
Well said, eli.
Will Rogers supposedly said he wasn’t a member of any organized party; he was a Democrat. I wonder if there is anything called the “leadership” that actually has a much of a thought out plan as we sometimes assume. They act more like an ad hoc group that can’t get its act together.
Eli @ 75
Ah, I got it now. Thanks.
Funnydiva2002 @ 46
LS @ 50
The thing is, this has been going on long before our current crop of “leaders” have been in position. There are memos from the various wingnut
thdink tanks from 30 years ago talking about strategies to make sure the upheaval of the 50s and 60s doesn’t happen again. (no time to find links).A big part of the plan was to control the national discourse, and could be accomplished by gobbling up the major media, and turning them into what we now call the Noize Machine. One of the ones I saw specifically called for running mega-Corporate supporters as Dems. This is the whole reason the DLC was created in the early 80s. Bill Clinton was their first big project and success.
Mission accomplished for these Constitution-hating people. All the more reason another Clinton in the WH would really set us back several years.
Pelosi, Reid, Feinstein, etc are all millionaires several times over. They live in palaces and never associate with the little people outside of campign activities. None have children in combat.
Do they care more about the little people, or the people they take vactions with and have over for dinner?
And the Clintons evidently bought it as well.. The DLC is still their baby and HC seems to be running with that same old strategy.
Eureka Springs @ 74
And just what makes you think constitutional restoration will be on the corpratist congressional agenda after 11-08?
i don’t believe it will be (maybe dodd or gore would care – but not dems in general).
that’s why i wonder if someday it wouldn’t make sense to make some demands for our support. but then i take look at ghouliani and i chicken out.
Eli @ 75
ross perot helped too.
Eureka Springs @ 74
And just what makes you think constitutional restoration will be on the corpratist congressional agenda after 11-08?
I don’t, some cosmetic repairs will be made but the damage is done. The same political dynamic and fear will be unchanged. The Dems will be in the same psychological straight jacket; if they roll back the police state and there is another attack, the Thugs will win in 2010. And on and on.
Scarecrow @ 77
Thanks, Scarecrow. I think part of it is the schism in the Democratic party between the DLC/insider/money party/status quo Dems and the progressive/people party Dems, tugging in opposite directions.
The other problem is the dilemma of how to go along with the Republicans without *looking* like they’re going along with the Republicans…
Bustednuckles @ 37
Aw c’mon, the Grand Ol’ Party is the… beacon of
blight andinaction during theselastdays ofdisease andimmorality!Why even the polls show the
lacklusterous andungrateful moodynessof theunhappy throngs ofbankruptwesterners…Recession fears
spikevanish among U.S. voters: pollThere, there Rahmmy boy, feel better now that Unka Karl is helping you win, win, win?
Toby Wollin @ 70
Would it then follow that we should see fewer men in positions of leadership, because of the incompetence shown by Bush, Gonzales, Chertoff and every other man in the Bush Administration?
Scarecrow @ 87
I think we need to start electing cats.
Eli @ 75
I really don’t understand how anyone can take an organization that has Harold Ford in charge, seriously. The Clinton DLC, was split off in 1996 by Simon Rosenberg in to form the NDN. Mark Penn and Joe Trippi among others are NDN.
Clinton “triangulation” IIRC was developed as a second term strategy.
Probably Clusterfuck has been on the right side of immigration all along- and that’s about where dems should be.
They need to be strong against the war- they may end up gettin sucker punched if it appearst that we’re winnin the fuckin thing come election day- but (without doin a thorough risk analysis) that position is best for them both politically, and in terms of what’s best for the country- which still matters a little..
Might as well, it’s been rumored you can herd them.
At least they would all be going the same way.
Can’t say that exactly about Congress.
bonkers @ 80
i strongly encourage everyone to read samuel huntington’s 1975 report to the trilateral commission on the crisis of democracy.
Steve-AR @ 89
I stand corrected. But Clinton *was* DLC in ‘92, right?
selise @ 59
Think about that for a moment.
More agreements with the Shrubinistas than with us. And they call themselves Democrats.
If we were talking about a Republican like Pete McCloskey, I could possibly believe this. However, we’re talking about perhaps the most radical and subversive bunch of America-haters to ever have power in America’s history. Ever.
And the fact that we can even entertain the thought that our Dems seem to agree more with these killers than with us, is all the proof we need that they are consciously doing all this IMHO.
LS @ 38
As with Lieberman, Schumer, Emmanuel and Feinstein, the issue for Specter seems also to be a deep (irrational) fear of cultural survival pushed at every turn by the propaganda of right wing religious hardliners. Once smart thoughtful men (and women) having been spoon fed these fear for years, have largely lost the ability to reasonably address the political issues at hand.
rwcole @ 90
There was some pretty harsh, awful stuff in the failed immigration bill – I *think* that was an example of a bill being watered down to try to capture Republican/Bush Dog votes, so I’m not sure how much of the bad stuff was Dubya’s.
But yes, it’s possibly the only issue Dubya was on the right side of. I think Rove was even on board – he saw the demographic writing on the wall, even if he probably doesn’t personally give a damn about Hispanics.
bonkers @ 94
Remember when they censured MoveOn?
LS @ 42
Iraqi school guard less fortunate than Bush…
“more agreements with bushco than with us”
You mean like :
Tax cuts for the rich
Lettin polluters pollute
Premptive invasions of other countries
Deficits from sea to shining sea
Ending right to chose.
etc etc
I really don’t think so.
Current DLC Leadership
Congressional New Democrats page on DLC web site.
bonkers @ 94
the reason i write comments here with what i’ve been thinking is that i hold out some bit of hope that someone will show me all the evidence demonstrating that i have it all wrong.
sad to say, i come to this way of thinking by watching the dems in congress (on the house and senate floor and in committee hearings). the more i watch them the more i think this way.
:(
well, hmm… the signatures gathered on the electoral college petitions are supposed to be filed in the county registrar’s office in the county that they are collected (for a raw count and random samples of validity).
wonder how that works with the UC campus collections? in theory, they had petitions for different counties, but if I’m reading the code correctly, the signatures are supposed to be gathered within the county where the signatures are going to be filed.
I think my cold has turned into pnuemonia now… me brain-o now has a fever…
Off topic – another white-trashonomics scam: turning hospital debts into credit card debts, shunting poor people into more 30% interest accounts. Run, of course, by the giant consomer usury companies.
http://www.businessweek.com/bw…..=rss_daily
selise @ 101
I can think of many different reasons for why the Democrats do what they do. But not a single good one.
Eli @ 93
I am far from an expert..but the Clintonite DLC and the Little Rock War Room was 1988 to 1992. Simon Rosenberg split off with a lot of that group in 1996 to form NDN. The present DLC is pretty pathetic and looking for relevance. The idea of moderating the lefty image of the Democratic party that was the mantra of the Clinton 1988 DLC is now with the NDN.
Steve-AR @ 105
NDN is real big on immigration reform, so that puts them way ahead of Rahm.
I think that a whole lot of Congressional Democrats really don’t disagree with the positions taken by the administration. When I listen to my representative, I get the impression that he thinks we need to give up some of our privacy to fight the terrorists. It is easier for me to believe that than that he votes out of purely political considerations such as those that seem to motivate Rahm and Steny.
rwcole @ 99
excellent! please tell me why so i can think that way too (except for the right to choose – i think i already agree on that one).
Scarecrow @ 87
Bingo! They are all ego freaks, but if you observe Pelosi…her constant patting herself on the back for her achievements, when the country she is representing is in dire need of leadership…her schmoozing behavior…her flirtatious behavior….she makes me sick. She shows up all dressed up in her South Sea pearls…very expensive…while people are starving, troops are dying, the country is under the influence of the worst attempt of an overtake of the Constitution and the rule of law in the history of the nation…It is her responsibility to follow the rules.
How dare she remove Impeachment from the table!!! How dare she!! She is stealing the rights of the very people she represents. She is wrong. I don’t care if she is female or male, that is not my problem. I have a problem with a leader refusing to do what the law calls for. There are tons of reasons to impeach…save us from another war…save lives.
Sorry for the rant, but it really pisses me off.
Eureka Springs @ 100
My point exactly Harold Ford, Tom Carper, Al From..Why Hillary is with that group of losers, I am not sure.
masaccio @ 107
I’m not sure which possibility is more depressing.
Selise..
Well the last dem president RAISED taxes on the rich- had what seemed to be to be a good policy on the environment- managed a fairly peaceful eight years- and produced a surplus.etc.
I’m not feelin that these two parties are the same- not in any way
Eli @ 106
They have understood the rising power of the Hispanic vote for 10 years. Karl Rove also had that as a key to Thugs forever strategy.
Maybe the dems are just trying to get through till November without a major catastrophe. Did we ever find out what Nancy Pelosi meant when she said that we don’t know the half of it about this administration?
Maybe they are seriously concerned about whether there will be an election, and don’t want to rattle ill men like Cheney and Bush? I don’t know, of course, just trying to figure some logic…
selise @ 92
Thanks for that. After a brief skim I can see I’ll have to spend more time with that. Very interesting.
They’re talking about pessimism. I guess that’s one thing that really excites me about places like FDL. I find it just the opposite here and other places in the netroots. We’re all talking about ways to restore the Constitution, and are constantly encouraged to actually do things about that. I have more hope and less pessimism than ever about politics. In fact, if someone starts sounding dejected in the comments, there is usually a resounding, “Buck up camper. This is a marathon, not a sprint. ATTACCKKKKKKK!!!” or some such pick-me-up.
It’s easy to confuse anger with pessimism. I don’t think most here are pessimistic. Sooo….
ATTACCKKKKK!!!!
rwcole @ 112
oh no – i did not say they are the same, nor do i think it.
i do think that the dem leadership are closer to Rs policy-wise than they are to us… but that does not make them the same.
I consider myself on the far left of the spectrum on most issues, and I despise Rahm and the other Republican style democrats (including Hillary) but, just out of my own great curiosity, can the poster, or anybody else, give me one reason to think that dispensing a U.S. drivers license to an undocumented alien who is in this country illlegally, is a good idea? When I was young, I was told constantly that a drivers license was a privledge, not a right. What am I missing here? seriously.
Tonsure Wimple @ 103
aw! kicking people when they’re down! aw! i wish these predators get what they deserve. i want to say something much worse, but know it won’t pass our friendly, hardworking moderators.
bonkers @ 115
love it!
… to be fair, i do think i go through a temporary bit of pessimism every time i see the congressional leadership fuck up. but then it passes and the anger to fight remains.
iburl @ 117
I see it as similar to abortion, in that even if it’s illegal it’s going to happen anyway – so you might as well keep it aboveground so it’s being done properly (i.e., if illegal immigrants are going to drive anyway, we might as well make sure they know what they’re doing).
Democrats have always been and continue to be pro labor.
Democrats were responsible for most of the civil rights legislation that the nation has experienced.
Democrats have fought and continue to fight for progressive taxation that requires the wealthy to pay their own way.
Democrats have fought for equal access to education.
Democrats have led the fight for environmental protection.
Democrats favor a woman’s right to chose.
While I don’t agree with all the dems all the time, they are much closer to me than they are to the goopers.
iburl @ 117
Less likely to kill someone if he knows how to drive. Also, so we know who is on our highways, know they are insured (to the extent that this is enforced in any population), and that the car is deemed safe for our roads.
Dems also favor universal health care.
Eli @ 111: I have given a bunch of money to two Democratic primary challengers, Pera and Edwards, and expect to give more early next year to which ever has better numbers.
iburl @ 117
How about reducing the number of uninsured drivers?
Loo Hoo. @ 114
I think that is the most likely explanation. The amount of pressure on the leadership to not screw up is enormous. If they make a misstep and blow the ‘08 election then the last chance to avoid the long night may be gone. I think the better policy would have more offense but their opinions and missteps have huge consequences..mine have none. Throwing rocks safely from the side lines is called “The courage of the non-combatant”.
rwcole @ 123
Well, sort of. Hillary’s plan sounded more like mandatory healthcare.
masaccio @ 124
Excellent. I’ve given to Edwards, and I’ll probably be giving a lot more to progressive primary opponents next year.
Eli, who else among challengers has a reasonable chance? I believe in focusing a lot of money where it has the best chance of working.
rwcole @ 112
Not in any way? That same adulterer enthusiastically signed perhaps the biggest blow to our Constitution, the Telecommunications Act.
They can’t be too obvious about after all, otherwise they look like Zell Miller and won’t get any Dem support, thus the gig is up. Gotta throw dem bones, ya dig?
Steve-AR @ 26
This is also getting press in the Army Times
I think we should be cautious about the numbers as you start getting “double hits”. But it’s likely that a substantial number, probably a majority, of combat troops may have serious traumatic neurological damage. When we consider that the maximum number of troops has been about 155,000, and the total that have served there may be about 600,000…these numbers are massive.
Throw out all the assertions about the low number of casualties from this war due to improved equipment (but recall no body armor and crappily protected vehicles, especially in the early part of the war).
That the military has been hiding these devastating numbers of seriously injured from the public, and denying those injured the necessary medical care and screening they need is simply proof that this administration cares about the troops. They are simply fodder for Bush’s “War President” egomania.
Loo Hoo. @ 114
Something like that… MSM isn’t telling the half of it, so that may be the reference.
We know better than to trust the half-wit media. We probably know too much as it is!
iburl @ 117
Makes sure they read the “rules of the road” booklet at least once, and makes sure the cops can find them when there’s a traffic accident.
masaccio @ 128
Howie Klein is the best expert on that. Off the top of my head, tho: John Laesch, Scott Kleeb, Mo Udall. I don’t think they’re taking on bad Dem incumbents, so much as going up against Bush Dogs for open seats.
iburl @ 117
jmo – it’s not about either privileges or rights – it’s about responsibilities. just because i person has broken one law does not take away their responsibilty to follow other laws – to have to demonstrate driving competency, to have to pay taxes to have to pay for insurance…. and it’s in all of our best interest if the other drivers on the road can pass a drivers test, drive cars that have been inspected for safety, have insurance,…
Eli @ 127
Thanks for those thoughts (safer roads, more insurance). This is a difficult issue, and one that I don’t have any good answers for, but it just doesn’t seem sensible to me. There are other ways to safer roads and better insurance outcomes than handing driver’s licenses to people who snuck across our borders. It pisses me off to think that we are jsut making it easier for corporations like the meat packing industry to break our wage and labor laws by ignoring their part in this.
Whoops hit Submit accidently…
Telecommunications Act allowed America-haters like Ruturd Murdoch and Clear Channel to carry out the last phases on taking over the public discourse. This was obvious at the time, and there were many of us being quite vocal about it, to no avail. We were constantly being told to support our fearless Liberal leaders. Hey, lessor of two evils after all, huh?
I consider NAFTA to be very anti-labor. One of Clinton’s pride and joys.
I consider the Patriot Act extremely anti-Constitution.
The Bankruptcy Act was an attack on the middle class.
And the beat (down) goes on, and on…
Steve-AR @ 135
It amazes me that the healthcare industry seems to have more clout on this issue than all the other industries combined. Maybe because it’s more of a life-or-death issue for them.
iburl @ 136
Many of them arrived as legal immigrants and then overstayed their visas.
Loo Hoo. @ 114
I think by saying that statement it further illustrates her failure as a leader by taking impeachment off the table. The half that I do know is seriously bad, and if she is privy to information that it much worse, then by uniltaerally removing the one instrument that is available to hold them accountable for their action shows weakness and fear, not something I look for in a leader.
CTuttle @ 34
Booman also misses one additional point. The rtroops are only superficially screened after these explosive attacks. It they don’t show any external wounds or apparent behavioral issues they are usually sent right back out. The troops insist on this as they want to “get even” or to show they “aren’t gonna be intimidated”. None are gonna ask to be excused for action if they have no physical injuries…they’ll tough it out. That, of course, is extremely dangerous for someone with a traumatic injury to the brain. It can lead to “hidden strokes” and other long lasting neurological damage that may only manifest years later or under specific triggers.
Eli @ 73
Despite the disclaimer, comment is sexist. Jeez, how could we have known that supporting dems would have led to such an awful pass?
cinnamonape @ 130
More than 1.5 million have served in Iraq. The British have found that even a minor blast injury that show no signs or even a positive brain scan initially can lead to progressive neurological deterioration. The blast apparently can cause injury to neurons deep in the brain, that gradually die over time.
Eli @ 133
Looking at Howie’s ActBlue page…
Gretchen Clearwater, taking on Baron Hill.
Randi Scheurer, running against Melissa Bean.
No idea what their chances are.
CNN) — Richard Roberts, the embattled president of Oral Roberts University and the son of its namesake evangelist founder, stepped down Friday, according to the school’s Board of Regents.
Richard Roberts and wife Lindsay appear on CNN’s “Larry King Live” in October.
“I love ORU with all my heart. I love the students, faculty, staff and administration, and I want to see God’s best for them,” Roberts wrote in his resignation letter.
Roberts’ decision was effective immediately and came as the school fought a wrongful termination lawsuit filed by three professors who accused him and his wife of misconduct.
John Swails, Tim Brooker and Paulita Brooker said they lost their jobs after reporting information indicating that Roberts and his family lavishly spent school money for personal expenses
rwcole @ 121
nafta? wto? china?
don’t ask, don’t tell. lani guiner’s nomination pulled. 1996 terrorism act (the pre-patriot act). extraordinary rendition.
did not the gap between the have lots and the have nots widen during the clinton years? also banking deregulation (leading to the mortgage shitpile we have now)
nclb was a bipartisan bill. equal access to bad education doesn’t count.
have you looked the dem’s energy bill this year?
i think that is generally true – even if most of the pols don’t care about it as much as we do.
i’m not convinced. could you give me more specifics please?
The Lord works in mysterious ways
bonkers @ 137
So true!
Why are we all constantly left wondering???? Why don’t they???? Why haven’t they???? Why did they??? Why isn’t anybody doing something about it??? Why aren’t they all over this??? What is going to happen to us???
Why are there no concrete answers?
I find this infinitely unsettling.
selise @ 146
Roberts. Alito.
How many of the 25,000 soldiers discharge with a “pre-existing” personality disorder and no benefits..really have progressive brain injury?
Do you know where your mutual funds are?
Money managers fight for new lines of credit
Gosh, I hope there aren’t any Republicans in this Donnybrook…
Let’s hope the goopers don’t suffer one little bit… After all they’re going to need the money for
legal defense fundcampaign contributions!Oh, yeah…nothing is concrete….
Eli @ 127
Is there a case to be made for working on healthcare programs at the state level, or is this a jurisdictional issue? I could be mis-remembering here, but I think health plans in Canada started in the provinces and went national later.
Eli @ 150
Hillary has one of the best records of voting against Bush judicial nominees.
link
Eli – i just read at your site that you met HopeSpringsaTurtle and Dr. Turtle! I’m so glad Dr Turtle is home safe. Good.
Steve-AR @ 151
And why were they given a gun if they had a personality disorder?
Eli @ 150
damn. you’re right.
Selise:
1) Pro Labor- I was speaking about support for organized labor. I tend to be pro organized labor and also a free trader- so I don’t necessarily see NAFTA as ant-labor.
2) Gap may have increased- but at the policy level- Clinton RAISED taxes on the wealthy- which is the reason they impeached his ass.
3) No child left behind was a bad law- but not in the sense of bad ideologically- it was just poorly thought out.
4)What about the energy bill?
Steve-AR @ 156
Well, that’s something. I know JPS is in good shape for his age, but I would be shocked if he was still on the SCOTUS in 2013, so I would definitely want a president with good instincts on judges.
iburl @ 136
It’s not just a matter of wages. These are not what you’d call quality jobs, and they probably would not be able to fill these positions at all if it were not for immigrants, no matter what the wages.
We have some unionized meat processing plants near where I live that pay not bad wages, and they are having trouble finding labour, even with special programs to bring people in from outside the country. These are horrible, horrible jobs, and most Canadian-born workers do not want them.
Eli @ 150
And one of my D Senators, Mark Pryor is anti choice… after decades of Dems in his seat prior to him..were pro choice. And Clintons and Clark are supporting him with gusto.
selise: Excellent points. It goes to illustrate what an uphill battle we had. We’ve accomplished so much in reclaiming our Party in such a short period of time, that personally, I’m very motivated. Howard Dean and the 50 State Strategy, Blue America just getting warmed up, and so on. I do feel we need to grow our numbers more here in the netroots. After an initial surge in readership, I think much of the blogosphere has stagnated somewhat.
We’ve at least stopped falling further down the hill, and I think we’ve even started clawing our way back up.
If nothing else, to honor Steve Gilliard and everything he did, we should all remember and live his motto:
“We Fight Back.”
bonkers @ 163
We continue fighting back.
Hmmm, let’s see what happens down under…
by Devilstower
Fri Nov 23, 2007 at 03:59:19 PM PST
Voters will head to the polls in Australia Saturday (today, for those of us on the slow side of the world), and it’s looking as if W’s man down under might be headed for retirement.
The center-right coalition of Prime Minister John Howard, who has been in power for 11 years and is one of the most stalwart supporters of President Bush in the Iraq war, faces a stiff challenge in Australia’s elections on Saturday, polls indicate.
…
Jane is upstairs
selise @ 158
Anyone who says both parties are the same..just read those two names..The next
President will set the SCOTUS for a generation.
iburl @ 117
If you’re like most of us, you were told that driving was a privilege, not having a driver’s license, and you were told that by your parents, not by the government.
The question of whether people “deserve” to drive is a privilege based on whether they know the rules of the road. The question of whether immigration status should figure into getting a driver’s license is solely a question of whether it’s a good idea to have the DMV enforce immigration laws, which begs the question of what other what other non-vehicular laws should be enforced by the DMV.
I suspect the reason this question resonates at all is that a driver’s license is used as ID.
Steve-AR @ 167
I think it’s already been set. I just want to at least hold serve.
Steve-AR @ 44
Steve…I’m a bit confused. Are you saying that groups who actually are planning or threatening attacks on the government or people are not terrorist? That they actually have to succeed in making an attack?
There’s a difference between an individual saying something absurd and a group actually discussing and developing plans for some sort of attack…whether they pull it off successfully or not.
But it clearly does open the door to some pretty contentious areas. When the NRA says that they believe their members should be armed in order to resist the government if they attempt to register or restrict their use of their guns…THAT could be construed as a threat involving violence to influence a political agenda.
If a group plans and places nooses on the doors of college faculty members because the advocated civil rights for minorities, immigrants, or GLBT individuals THAT could be studied by the Harman committee.
But by your definition neither could be assessed as “homegrown terrorism” (or a precursor to it).
IMO it is simply bizarre that we can get injunctions against an individual who make personal violent threats against someone…yet when it’s a group, who are actually far more threatening to a particular victim since they face large numbers of, often anonymous, harassers…this can be construed as “free speech” and any effort to study or stop it is called “thought crime.
Steve-AR @ 155
I’m not afraid of HRC at all, and I will vote for her if she is the nominee. I was never, ever frightened during Bill’s tenure.
The Busheviks, Bushevistas, whatever….they scare me…They must go. I’m worried, however, that Jeb is appearing with Rove…
Don’t forget that the voter irregularities occurred in Florida, under his governorship, and that he did this:
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20011008.htm
rwcole @ 159
1) labor saw nafta (and wto and china trade) as anti-labor.
2) iirc taxes were increased from 35% to 39% (i tired to look it up, but that is my memory) – a good thing, but not enough to share the benefits of increasing productivity (hence my comments and the widening gap).
3) i think nclb was a bad idea all around – students are now (even more) being taught to the test, which means they are memorizing more and learning how to think less. i don’t know as much about the other subjects – but this is really a problem for science teaching, where learning how to do science is much more important than memorizing a bunch of “facts”.
4) energy bill – start here, and then add lame cafe standards and stupid ethanol subsidies.
Steve-AR @ 167
no one is saying they are the same. that is just a strawman.
I would amend a phrase from Tena’s nice piece from “they look like pussies” to read that the cowed consistently conspicuously caving Democrats are explicit pussies, and Emanuel, Pelosi and the Senate Bush asslickers (ya know who they are)–they’re the ones who will get Telco Immunity passed and most of the egregious Senate Intel Committe’’s bill in the next month.
It puts them tenuously close to losing an election that should be a slam dunk based on cascade after cascade of lies about Iraq, Plame, the mafia-esque DOJ that are now trickling out (but you won’t see them on TV–media for the Aruba/Britney/OJ crowd).
And most people have now seen the print media and blog/website but not TV stories about a very real threat to the 2008 Presidential election–the attempt by the Republicans to reconfigure the electoral votes from Caleyforney so that instead of winner take all, they become broken down by percentage which would give 20 important, election winning votes to the Republicans.
See:
Publicity-Shy Giuliani Backer Is Thrust Into Spotlight Giuliani’s California Schemin’ Money Man
This tactic is interesting and deadly in a national election that a state petition could change the way each state counts their electoral votes. I’m surprised that the Republicans aren’t trying to do this in every state where there are significant splits.
selise @ 173
I would respectfully differ and say that this President has already set the Supreme Court into an embedded Federalist Society right wing skew for a generation and a half whatever else happens and whoever else is involved in the selection process. And if this happens, you can kiss any hope of not having 9 Thomases and Scalias goodbye:
Petition to Steal the Election and Electoral Votes in California
OldCoastie @ 60
It’s a two-step process with the Counties involved in assessing the legitimacy of the original set of signatures, either through sampling or (if less than 50 signatures actually submitted) an actual count. Then the Sec’y of State receives these and examines the proportions of confirmed vs. falsified. If it falls above 110% of a specified number the Initiative qualifies. If it’s below 90% it fails. If it’s between those two numbers it requires detailed signature/id checks of additional samples.
BTW The reports of what has been going on with this particular situation is clearly criminal. The false transmission of infornation about the initiatives and the failure of the individual to allow their names to be obtained is against the code. In addition obstruction the summaries and titles of the initiatives is also against the law.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/init_guide.htm
Pete Pierce @ 174
Well then they would lose. What they want to do is use this only in those “winner take all” states where there is a firm Democratic majority. If they did it those other States they might lose THEIR advantage in the Winner Take ALL votes. If States like Florida, Ohio, Missouri, and Virginia…and even Texas…had these systems Bush would have lost. TWICE!
It only works where the State has about 55-60% Democratic support and heavily Republican districts. That way the go from having Zero electors to getting about 40% of the electors in those States.
And ironically, if you are in either a traditionally Democratic or Republican district it actually reduces the power of your individual vote. A Democratic vote in a strong gerrymandered Republican District has no influence, and vice versa. It really doesn’t mean that “everybody’s vote will count”. In addition it makes the value of California’s votes the equivalent of a State like South Carolinas.
It’s really odd that the California Republican Party basically admit that none of their candidates, especially Giuliani (who is behind this) admits that they won’t appeal to the vast majority of Californians. This despite he fact they have a popular Governor? Instead they have to change the rules of play in one particular state!
LS @ 21
You sayin’ we should change the Democratic Party to the Spelunkers Party?
LS @ 50
I hadn’t considered that legacy idea before. Strange, it really should be an obvious one. I guess I wasn’t looking at it from her personal viewpoint.
So, does that mean if Hillary becomes president that she’ll also be put into some awful situation where she has to behave in a pre-scripted manner which pleases the Rich and Republicans?
I don’t think either of those is what America needs these days.