I’m not sure when this started, or whether anyone takes it seriously, but for the past several nights, CNN has been teasing its viewers by hyping the idea that their own anchor, Lou Dobbs, is considering a run for the presidency as an “independent” candidate. Does CNN not see there’s a problem here?
Unlike Stephen Colbert, who never pretended that his brief dabbling with running was anything more than a publicity stunt and parody of presidential campaigns, the arrogant Dobbs has enough conceit and ambition, along with enough devoted viewers stroking his ego every night, to take himself seriously. And if that’s true, what is CNN doing?
I’m not suggesting that a Dobbs candidacy would likely succeed. Although Dobbs’ brand of immigrant bashing may appeal to many on the right, the Republican field is already littered with “illegal immigrant” bashers. There are only so many votes to be had from bashing the US Attorney who prosecuted two border patrol agents or making sure immigrants only drive without licenses or discouraging folks from taking their children to an emergency room because they’re afraid they’ll be deported while their kids are sent to foster care. And with folks like Giuliani in the race, it’s not clear how much room is left for another self-proclaimed hero and demagogue.
Dobbs likes to portray himself as an anti-government populist, a champion of the middle class. But tapping into whatever populist appeal there is will take something more than an agenda of hating/fearing anyone who crosses our southern border without permission. Just being fed up with both parties is not enough. Dobb’s rant last night on the quandary Democrats face over recess appointments was another example of his howling mindlessly at the moon; he seems to have no clue that a lawless regime has the country by the throat, forcing Democrats to take unprecedented steps to keep things from getting worse.
Middle class Americans are under siege from a radical regime driven by right wing ideologues who, while enriching the richest, have tried to dismantle the very government programs that nurtured the middle class. But Dobbs hasn’t explained to his viewers that when Republicans repeatedly obstruct funding for those programs while demanding unlimited funds for wars, it’s part of the “war on the middle class” and poor Americans — voters who are not likely to see their salvation from someone whose priority is building a wall between the US and Mexico. But if he thinks he can sell that better than Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter, let him quit CNN and try.
The problem is he wants to try while sitting in his CNN anchor chair. With CNN’s complicity, Dobbs has been using both his own hour-long “news” show and preview appearances on Wolf Blitzer’s news shows to promote the notion of an “independent,” populist candidate. CNN has been trying to create a buzz by running streamers at the bottom of Blitzer’s shows asking about Dobb’s candidacy, and they’ve used interviews on other shows to ask him if he’s serious — to which Dobbs gave a cutesy non-denial. He’s also using his own shows and web writings to encourage voters to abandon the major parties and re-register as “independents.” Each night, he displays and praises e-mails from viewers proudly proclaiming they’ve followed his advice.
I frankly don’t care if Lou Dobbs wants to quit his job and run for President. But I have a problem with Dobbs using his CNN anchor position to promote his own candidacy, on a program that pretends to be about “news.” And if Dobbs is serious, then CNN is allowing its cable “news” programs to be misused to provide free airtime and campaign advertising to openly promote a Presidential candidate. How can candidates of either party expect CNN to treat them fairly if CNN is openly pimping for Dobbs?
Given CNN’s role, this is starting to look worse than the “I’m just testing the waters” sham that Thompson went through to evade federal election laws and worse than Fox News stacking the deck for Giuliani. I don’t assume that Dobbs has crossed a legal line, and its way too late to worry about his reputation as an ethical journalist. But does anyone at CNN care about its own journalistic integrity?
If Dobbs is running, replace him; if he’s not, stop pretending he is. And if he wants to think about it, give him a leave of absence.
Screenshot from Rauchdickson, “Are you serious Lou?”
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Zed?
Good Morning Scarecrow
Lou will be right up there with Fred Thompson.
And Good Morning Scarecrow!!!
“…a lawless regime has the country by the throat, forcing Democrats to take unprecedented steps to keep things from getting worse.”
I have never seen the current state of affairs described more effectively than that. Anywhere. That got read aloud over coffee here.
::back to lurking::
Caw caw! Good morning Scarecrow.
Good Morning Scarecrow!
and some very good questions for CNN to answer,
Silleigh @ 3
don’t just lurk!
I’d just as soon he keep the soapbox, solidify his following, run and siphon yahoo votes from
Giuliani, Romney or whoever else is on their side. Not that it’s ethical, but . . . .
Dobbs is race-baiting. This is the same old crap of old. Wait till Gringos start heading north to Canada looking for better economic conditions then what is he going to say?
AZ Matt @ 8
“Good riddance” is what he’ll say. But what is he going to do for a program? Interesting subject, though. I never thought about it. How much immigration from Mexico do the Canadians get? They must get some, eh?
Elliott, I just hang out here to learn stuff from commenters and the fabulous posters. I’m not exactly a dimbulb, but rarely have anything to add to the proceedings over here!
FDL: Another Reason To Be Thankful.™
Caw! (or, as our local ravens say, Grark!)
I’m with BFL – let’s have Dobbs grab up every anti-immigrant wingnut that he can. It would be wonderful if an independent could screw up the Repug vote as badly as has happened in the past to the Democratic vote.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. – Plato
::like others here, back to lurking::
Silleigh @ 10
but you know, I think everyone brings something to this table, no matter how modest the offering may seem to be to the commenter! You’re experiences and opinions matter — here especially
OT: Want some good news? Morning Joe minus Joe is hammering the McClellan story. Shuster is on and he’s doing a great job. Then I went to FoxNews and they have on the soldier who was injured and asked to return his sign-up bonus. Fox also had a number posted for all servicemen to call if they’ve had similar problems.
Uh oh, now Fox is Hillary-bashing using kids. Returning to Shuster
And another presidential-sized ego…how ’bout that Bushie in his Camp David bubble with Grandpa Charlie yesterday in a mini “Mission Accomplished” moment.
I’m listening to David Shuster smackin’ down the econidjit Mark Haynes on Morning Cuppa and this is what a passionate journalist/talking head should be. Start with demanding honesty.
Something Dobbs skews as high as that little satellite scam he had going for a while.
Meanwhile, the poultry’s coming home to roost on Bushonomics. Twill on Dobbs and CNN as well.
Morning Scarecrow – CNN tanked for me when they dumped Aaron Brown. The Dobbs schtick is just tiresome.
ah, but who DO they have scarecrow, who?
the frontrunner is a fornicating adultorating, unborn child murdering, family abondoning, fireman murdering drag queen
and talk about kucinich not looking presidential, excuse me, this drag queen is presidential?
errr
not
the next popular candidate is a senile old man
both mccain and thompson
their most presidential looking candidate is a Christ hating olygamist who can’t walk and talk at the same time
so who exactly CAN they run?
there only CHANCE is that they can get hillary as our candidate and HOPE their marketing campaign to breed hatred for the last 8 years will galvanize enough of that hatred to have their base turn out even though they hate their own candidate as well
so who CAN they run?
who?
why, dodd of course
Except for his willful blindness on immigration, Dobbs might be somebody who can be an ally. At least he sees that things are wrong with the government, and is trying to speak up.
If the economy really tanks, we could see a lot worse populist candidates. It’s an old story, pointing to a scapegoat as the answer to problems. So it’s not that a small number of people are sucking all the wealth out of the middle class, it’s those scary brown people crossing the border.
I wish we could enlighten him on this one issue.
Comeone Scarecrow… we know that the MSM is completely crap and can hardly do anything laudable. We got that when we tagged them with the MSM.
I think the real story is that MSM is trying disparately to stay “relevant” and hold on to market share.
They ALWAYS base the internets as unreliable.. and bloggers are slobs in their pajamas smalling away on their keyboards smoking and high. They know the writing is on the wall… people will be looking to the net for new, commentary and everything because it is IMMEDIATE and DEMOCRATIC and offers the absence of everything coming to us through corporate filtering. MSM is skeered and should be.
When I do watch the telly, I basically look at news and beltway bobbleheads as entertainment… not even infotainment and certainly not fact based reality or informed opinion.
Teevee is good for entertainment, travel shows and so forth. Never watch the overpaid blowhards on teevee and couldn’t care less. And I think that is the trend. BillO’s audience is like over 70 or something.
What we do need is to development a net based news reporting network and that seems to be a weak point for the internets… at this date.
Elliott @ 12
Elliot’s right. But I guess it’s like in the real world. Some people are just quiet. But, Silleigh, I can’t speak for anyone else but I really believe that we all benefit from each other’s participation. But you can also benefit from lurking , too. Speech is relatively free here and I guess that means freedom to not speak, too.
Okay, Mark Haynes redeems himself in my eyes just a tad. Asks where’s the outrage about the war being conducted off the books, even leaving aside the deaths on both sides [big leave-aside, pal]. “Where’s the outrage? Where’s the outrage?”
Arianna up next on Morning Cuppa…
Oh the fly…Happy Turkey Day everyone! Speak truth to power. Speak truth to in-laws. Be passionate. And let’s get these turkeys outa charge!
Oh, man….now they’re talking about the fact that the financial price of the war is ‘off the books’ and that the 600-900 billion dollars that it’s costing American taxpayers is waaaay more than Wolfowitz’s prediction of ‘no cost for U.S. taxpayers’. And the phrase ‘where is the outrage?’ was uttered.
See what can happen if we get progressives on the air. Joe Scarborough must be screaming at his tv.
Prairie Sunshine @ 20
Your Thanksgiving should be eventful.
i don’t watch dobbs, so i may have this all wrong… but the rejection of both parties and the appeal to scapegoating seems very much in line with what chris hedges warned us of:
if we don’t find a way to offer an alternative to a government that defends corporations instead of citizens, i fear we are creating the very conditions that make what dobbs has to say appealing to far too many people.
I’m sorry, a p.s. Arianna’s accent absolutely stomps on her message.
Talking about her polling project now.
We were polled last night by somebody called Blackstone on energy questions. Had to shortcircuit the caller, but wonder what that was about?
Caw, Caw, Scarecrow, and you’re absolutely right! Dobbs should decide whether he wants to run for President or pundit in chief at CNN. He can’t have both.
Diane @ 15
I also agree that Aaron Brown deserved airtime more than Dobbs anyday!
Good morning, everyone.
It’s easy to say, “what do you expect from the MSM?” but I assume there are still those within these organizations who take their journalistic roles seriously. They need a lot of support, because the tendency will be to sink into Chris Matthews mode.
As Digby, Greenwald, Jane, Christy, et al have been writing, the MSM coverage of politics has been awful, and seems to be getting worse. I don’t think we can focus enough critical attention on them.
I don’t follow Dobbs closely but it seems to me his continued flirting with running as an independent can’t be good for the Republicans. It’s a distraction for those that might support a current Republican candidate, like Ron Paul or Romney. Those that perhaps don’t like Paul or Romney for their anti-abortion stands, or Huckleberry for his Christian Conservative ties…might go for Dobbs. And the longer Dobbs plays this game the longer his fans might hold off throwing their support to a candidate in the Primary.
That means they will miss contributing to the Republican Primary, or perhaps getting their (second) choice nominated. Thus they may be frustrated with who DOES get nominated and that could compel Dobbs to actually be even more pressured to run an Independent campaign.
And his only real soap-box is his show, so if he decides to really run then he’s immediately out of that…and yet still sucking the energy out of the Republican Party.
yes, but wasn’t it, to a large degree, something that clinton made possible? nafta and fucked up trade policies generally, welfare “reform”, banking deregulation….
these aren’t problems limited to the radical right wing ideologues in the republican party….
I’ve begun to wonder if the Dick Tater Ship will come via right-wing media. They seem to believe they “own” the story line. And truly… are they the ones who will effect a coup? This may sound paranoid… but yesterday I wrote something about that… after the Fox Chair lectured West Point Cadets… and it practically sounded like Fox was trying to make them part of their Propaganda Machine.
I’m not nuts. But I am worried. I think we have reason to worry.
I missed this in the Times and saw it in my local. I guess it’s old news by now, but it’s just crazy. The link is below but I did a double take at the headline:
“IRAQ LAUDS IRAN FOR HELP IN IMPROVING SECURITY”
I thought the Iranians were making it less secure, indeed behind most of the trouble in Iraq. Revolutionary guard. Terrorist organization. Blah, blah, blah. Does this mean we have to get a new bogeyman?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com…..unday/orl-
selise @ 23
I think you make a very good point, Scarecrow, about the obviously even more unfair concept of a paid TV host using the slot to run for office. In this particular instance, I would be willing to let the issue go until after the election. Ideally, he would lead a conglomerate of right wingers off on another “Children’s Crusade”. After the election, we could work on restoration of the fairness doctrine.
Scarecrow @ 26
yes.
i can’t watch much of it… but, i’m very grateful to all of you who do.
it’s like a nazi rally – someone has to show up and voice dissent.
Selise has correctly identified the cause of the destruction of America, our economy, our democracy and our “way of life” – transnational corporations and unfettered free market capitalism.
Corporations have taken over government to the point that it is not the people’s government as in “we the people”, but it is the corporations government… as in we the shareholders.
Until we put down these huge corporations we will be moving toward a fascist state step by step.
The changes required are very radical now to put the jack back in the box. Corporations have insinuated themselves into EVERY FUCKING ASPECT of your lives… from the food you eat, to your education, to your transport, to your news and entertainment, to our military and security and of course our health.
And the reasons corporations are succeeding at owning the world is because they replace the exploitive system of slavery with a new pyramid scheme which makes the plantation owners, or the shareholders in this case enormously wealthy on the backs of the workers.
Slavery is alive and well in the world… it’s not the plantation anymore… it’s the corporation.
They simply changed the name and have marched into the government and taken it over. Racism, classism… it’s back in spades.
I don’t watch Dobbs often either. But, when the Dubai Ports deal was in the works, he was on that issue every second. And, I think that’s when his popularity surged.
Scarecrow,
People in the MSM may have entered there with high expectations and laudable goals, but 99.9% of them are corrupted by money and if they are not they are tossed aside.
Do you want to get your news from Barbie Dolls making $5MM a year? OK $300K.. too much how about $150K? Do you think they are seeing the world as 95% of Americans or 99.9% of the world?
Real investigation and digging in the MSM is ALWAYS crushed because the hit at the sensitive nerve of the “system”… whether it is investigation cops who kill or JFK or 911 or the run up to Shock and Awe… you won’t be getting to the bottom of it via the MSM. No way jose.
Lou Dobbs is one of the liars responsible for stirring up immigration hatred.
Why do anti-immigrationists need to lie and invent statistics to buffer their case? Could it be that this illegal immigration “nightmare” is actually good for our country?
Remember this little exposed lie from a few months ago, when the Republicans were realizing how they might get some votes with a little more bile and hate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05…..hardt.html
Dobbs impresses me as a libertarian money bags who wants to protect HIS property and could care less about anything else. No?
It’s the same right wing .. don’t tread on me and I’ll blow your head off if you step on my property mentality all over again.
SanderO @ 35 –
i don’t think it’s fair to say “Real investigation and digging in the MSM is ALWAYS crushed”… not every good investigative journalist ends up like gary webb.
My daughter who is reasonably politically aware, called me one night to ask why Lou Dobbs was bashing Elliot Spitzer.
It was later reported that Spitzer’s approval rating had sunk to 30% after winning the election with 60% of the votes.
Immigration is a fun issue for the right… they get to use slave labor for profit and then arrest a few and scream we are under siege and LAW AND ORDER must be restored… all the running their sweat shops offshore.
solai @ 39
In case that’s strictly a NY issue, I should have added that this was about the Spitzer plan to give driver’s licenses to undocumented workers.
They don’t all get a bullet in the head, but they get a horse head in the bed or some other demotion or message: Watch out buddy.
Even Karen Silkwood saw where the truth telling will get you.
Sibel Edmonds anyone?
Several of you have mentioned that Dobbs would siphon off votes from the R’s, but I think he would get some Dem support, as well. My dad, for one. He’s generally in line with where most of us are. He’s a lifelong Dem, and particularly fed up with the way this government has been run. But he’s big on the illegal imigartion bandwagon – partially thanks to Dobbs.
There are a lot of Democrats who view illegal imigration as a big issue and would hop on the Dobbs bandwagon. I also think he would get a lot of anti-Hillary votes, should she be the Dem candidate.
You feel safe driving in NYC with unlicensed and uninsured drivers?
‘morning all… start up yer cups – coffee is ready…
I agree with JF. If Dobbs keeps talking about the ‘war on the middle class’ he’s going to attract voters from both parties.
selise @ 28
Good point. Even as a Bill Clinton fan, he’s gets a share of the blame for this mess.
NAFTA has been a disaster, and we must focus immediately on restoring middle class job growth in this country.
A good start would be (gasp) spending lots of money on our decaying infrastructure coast to coast- roads, bridges, electrical grids, etc.
As a bonus, these jobs can’t be outsourced-you can’t pave a road in China and ship it back here.
MSNBC now touting its Above and Beyond heroes contest. Kinda like America Idol? Definitely exploiting Medal of Honor winners for a media promo. Good going, MSNBC.
JF @ 43
I agree with you, but I think it would be better for those Democrats to trail off after a third party than bolt to the Republicans. I believe the immigration issue is potentially a real problem for Democrats because it is complex, with no easy solution. Republicans are always willing to tell people the simplistic answers they want to hear.
SanderO @ 33
As Lou Dobbs likes to point out, the corporations are off-shoring all the work they can to places where the wages are lower, and they’re importing low-paid worker to take over the rest.
How to Spotlight this article. We might start with CNN.
One of the things Dobbs always asks a pro-illegal leader is a very simple question: why can’t we first shore up the borders, and then let’s get to work on a package of laws dealing with the illegals who are already here.
Each and every time, the pro-illegal leader will fail/refuse to answer the question. About all the pro-illegal person can do is repeat the mantra: “but we want a comprehensive solution”….which is NO answer at all; merely a repeat of policy position.
America watches this evasiveness played out on TV. And, America is not impressed.
Among the many tragic errors committed by the pro-illegal leaders, consistently failing to just ANSWER THE QUESTION ranks right up there.
But the pro-illegals crowd seems quite content to always fall back to their default position: those that dare to disagree, are RACISTS! RACISTS, I TELL YOU!!!
Yawn. Which is why, the pro-illegals crowd does what it does best: consistently LOSES. Oh well. I guess the pro-illegals folks really like being losers….must be a confidence issue.
Ghostman
George Simian @ 36
So was Caesar Chavez, who referred to illegal immigrant farm workers as “scabs” and turned them in to the Immigration Service.
JF @ 43
He would get Dem votes but I think far less that from the other side and some “Dem votes” that would go to Dobbs might not have voted Dem anyway if they’re that jacked up(off) about illegal immigrants.
I don’t think he’ll run. If he did, I think he’d be so marginalized after some initial attention that he’ll have a much better platform for his garbage doing what he does now. I just don’t see an upside to it. So I’m assuming he won’t. But I’m not factoring his ego into that equation.
egregious @ 17
He has supported the middle class from the get go. He calls for enforcement of existing laws, and reconizes the eviceration of the working class by corporate AMerica. The same corporate interests behind the “1933 Business Plot,” are at work today, by the hiers to these corporations.
Iaqi American or Iranian, the corporate scum of the world are threatening the rights of all peoples of the world.
Corporate Aristocracy / Estate Tax
Rule of Law / Corporate Usurpation of Constitutional princiles
Jefferson warned all decades ago:
Jefferson Quote:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
THIS HAPPENING ON A GLOBAL SCALE!!!!
If we Americans (the governed) cannot protect our constitutional right here at home, do you think the Iraqi’s or Iranians can protect THEIR self interest from the CIA, “CORPORATE INVESTMENT AGENCY”
Hi Scarecrow,
Over at Slate, David Greenberg, an historian who writes about the history behind current events, jumps into a two week debate, of sorts, about how Ronald Reagan appealed to southern white racists by using the term “states rights.”
While this seems marginally off topic, I relate it to your post in the way that Lou Dobbs is race baiting night after night.
Ronald Reagan went to Philadelphia, Mississippi, the place where three civil rights workers were murdered, and through the use of the term “states rights” allowed himself to be seen as siding with those who hated civil rights.
Reagan was remarkably successful at gaining Republican votes from former Democrats, and the shift in the South from largely Democratic to Republican was helped by the appeal to racism.
CNN and Lou Dobbs have, in my opinion, decided to take this page from Reagan’s playbook and gain greater media share AND influence the political horserace.
Reagan should have been taken on loudly for his appeal to racists.
CNN and Lou Dobbs are being put on notice by you and, I hope, the rest of us.
pma @ 49
The problem comes in when, if Dobbs runs, he has to have positions on issues other than immigration. Like solai said, his “war on the middle class” talks would be very effective, especially if the D and R candidates can (quite easily, in my opinion) be painted as rich, ruling class elites.
SanderO @ 44
I’m far from NYC, but I agree (with what I think is your position) that it was a legal matter.
I really didn’t get the outrage so I asked a gooper co-worker to explain the opposition viewpoint. Her response: “They’re illegal, what don’t you get? They. Are. Illegal.” So, I guess it was a punitive thing with them. They hate/fear them and, goddamnit, they’re not getting driver’s licenses.
Good post, but…I am shocked, at 220 volts that someone on the teevee would, agitate and even organize, or try to redress grievances. Most of them teevee folks are corporate sock puppets. Please, anyone, if you want to run for President or School Board, do it.
Dobbs is conservative, but HE IS AGAINST THE IRAQ OCCUPATION/GENOCIDE. That is more than the “Democratic Leadership” can say.
It is the Republican/Bush policy to allow uncontrolled illegal immigration. It is also their policy to allow employers to hire non-citizens. It is their policy to conceal the cost to taxpayers of 10 million or more non-legal immigrants. Seventy percent of the voting taxpayers opppose uncontrolled illegal immigration policy of the Bushies.
Ghostman @ 51
The inevitable charges of racism against anyone who opposes unrestricted immigration are IMHO most inappropriate.
The first question that has to be asked is this: do we have a right to impose a restrictive immigration policy. Many people, including some of my best friends, believe that we don’t have that right.
STTP in Ohio @ 47
Infrastructure = Jobs would be a good tactic to take. Show the sacks of cash in Iraq and the busted bridge in MN — Got Cash?
JF @ 57
Good point. I actually watched him fairly often myself, and agreed with some of this points, until his record got stuck on the immigration issue. I don’t know a good answer, because it is complex. I’m afraid that the ultimate solution might be when the relative standard of living on both continents is essentially equal (poor), so that there is no flow of people seeking a better life.
wrt Ariana Huffington’s accent….it is a minor point I suppose, but I have always found it disappointing that she still drags her ex-hubby’s name around, instead of proudly embracing her Greek heritage.
Just, ya know, sayin.
OT – Does POTUS Hear the Banging?
Webb almost cracked a smile at the absurdity of it as he banged the gavel, declared, “The Senate stands in recess until Nov. 23rd, ‘07 at 10 a.m.,” and then gave another bang to close the joint until the next chosen senator, Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.), gets a tour with the gavel the morning after Thanksgiving.
Asked how he got chosen for duty, Webb, ever mindful of his local and freshman status, told us, “I’m from Virginia, I’m in town, and I’m very, very junior.” Plus, he said, “I’d much rather be doing this than allow the president to skirt the confirmation process in the Senate. This is an exercise in protecting the Constitution and our constitutional process.”
twolf1 @ 64
OT – Does POTUS Hear the Banging?
Webb almost cracked a smile at the absurdity of it as he banged the gavel, declared, “The Senate stands in recess until Nov. 23rd, ‘07 at 10 a.m.,” and then gave another bang to close the joint until the next chosen senator, Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.), gets a tour with the gavel the morning after Thanksgiving.
Asked how he got chosen for duty, Webb, ever mindful of his local and freshman status, told us, “I’m from Virginia, I’m in town, and I’m very, very junior.” Plus, he said, “I’d much rather be doing this than allow the president to skirt the confirmation process in the Senate. This is an exercise in protecting the Constitution and our constitutional process.”
webb should show up unshaven and in his pajamas for this
hmm I wonder if cspan is obligated to cover the 30 second sessions?
Elliott @ 65
webb should show up unshaven and in his pajamas for this
hmm I wonder if cspan is obligated to cover the 30 second sessions?
Nice story. The experience shouldn’t be new to Webb. It’s called duty officer, in the services.
Okay folks! Let me lay out quite explicitly why Scotty McClellans assertions are grounds for Patrick Fitzgerald to reopen his investigation.
If what Scotty says is true…that Cheney, Bush, Rove and Libby LIED to him about their knowledge of whom released information about plame to reporters then it means that these individuals OBSTRUCTED Fitz’s investigation.
Fitz was not simply tasked to prosecute the original leakers. He was also given the authority to prosecute anyone that obstructed his investigation by lying to him about the events and concealing who actually did make such public statements.
Cheney denied to Fitz that he had knowledge about the role of either Scooter or Rove in leaking to the reporters. Recall that Cheney’s main defense was Scooters assertion that he never recalled his earlier conversations with Cheney. And that he never told Cheney about his conversations with reporters.
Bush also apparently denied his knowledge of either Libby’s or Rove’s leaks in his interview with Fitz. He didn’t know who was involved, according to Bush in his public assertions.
But McClellan’s statement suggests that he has knowledge that he was LIED to..right from the get go. This would mean that at the very time that Cheney drafted the famous “Include Libby in the Rover Denial” memo, he knew Libby was involved. That makes it quite clear that
Bush and Cheney were trying to prevent the “Sacrifice the guy that was asked
by the presto stick his neck into the meat grinder because of the incompetence of others.”They knew Libby was involved, and they directed McClellan to lie (or to unknowingly pass on their lie).
That’s obstruction of justice and perjury to the Prosecutor. Thus Fitz needs to re-interview McClellan about this. McClellan has also testified previously before the Grand Jury…so he could also be subject to prosecution, having mislead the Prosecutor and the Court.
pma @ 66
Maybe on Thursday he can wear a pilgrim hat.
solai @ 58
Possible Rejoinder: So. Is. Driving. Without. Insurance. In. New. York. If. You. Get. In. An. Accident. It. Comes. Out. Of. Your. Own. U.M. Coverage. There. Is. No. Benefit. In. Having. A. Class. Of. Uninsurable. People.
I haven’t looked, but have any of the MSM outlets even mentioned Scottie’s book blurb? And what is the spin, if they have?
Ghostman @ 52
how about this for an answer:
1) because “shoring up the borders” won’t fucking work.
2) because while it’s not working, we’ll be spending a ton of money on building america into a police state.
3) (i’m gonna skip the “it’s immoral” part of the answer for now)
4) because the problem isn’t workers from mexico. the problem is trade deals like nafta which screw over workers in mexico and the usa. all this scapegoating of undocumented workers from mexico is to make you forget that they are our natural allies – but neither the Rs or the Ds will tell you that… because they don’t want their corporate donors to get pissed.
please, i beg you – read jane hamsher and david sirota on this.
twolf1 @ 64
If I were Webb, I would have videotaped it for the future grandkids to see. This administration is going to go down in history as the most dangerous ever. And everyone who steps up to try to stop them will be seen as heroes. Of course, all this depends on us actually winning the final battle and returning to the country we once were.
On a personal note: My daughter went to a protest march. I told her to be sure that she had someone take a picture with her placard. She’d want to show her kids some day that Mommy was on the right side during the Bush years.
cinnamonape @ 67
Here are McClellan’s exact words:
Notice that he makes no claim that Cheney, Bush, and Card knew that this information was false. And presumably Fitzgerald has questioned him under oath about exactly that.
via @ 70
MSNBC.com, CNN.com have it on their front pages. Atlanta paper has it on its first real news page (A3).
cinnamonape @ 67
It’s also quite possible that Scottie told Fitz what he knows already, but that without other evidence or testimony, Fitz couldn’t take it any farther.
This is mostly about two things: Scottie selling books, and Scottie settling a few scores.
solai @ 58
There are people in this world who seem to wallow in the feeling that someone else is getting something that they are NOT. The truth of the matter has no meaning for them whatsoever. The thought that someone else has some piddling advantage or benefit just galls them incredibly. Drives ‘em nuts.
wigwam @ 60
It IS racism. Or I guess, more accurately, xenophobia.
The facts do not back up the argument that there is a huge illegal immigration problem in this country. They are not, as is so often screamed by anti-immigrationists, taking jobs from anyone. They are not taking up all our resources in health care or education. The anti-immigrationists pick and choose their data, in the same way that Bush can find good news in the Iraq War data, to bolster their arguments.
So if there are no (or few) facts to back up the argument that there is an anti-immigration problem, then it is just a feeling these people are taking over our country. That is xenophobia, and it is very close to racism.
It made me more than mildly nauseous to see David Gregory (of Dancing With Karl Rove fame) wondering aloud on Countdown last night about Scottie’s revelations. Didn’t seem to occur to him that it was and is his JOB to find out the answers to his own questions. Compared to David Shuster, Gregory is pathetic.
via @ 70
look back thru yesterday afternoon’s posts and comments, too
JF @ 74
Last night, it was the main story at msnbc.com and yahoo.com, cnn’s main story was about a guest walking off the set of Larry the Buzzard King Live – how dare they do that. Strangely, there was no mention of ScottyMac at foxnews.com.
via @ 70
‘Morning Joe’ was joe-less. Shuster was there along with Willy and Mika. YES, this was thoroughly discussed. It was like a breath of fresh air. I don’t expect it to be mentioned for the rest of the day. We so need progressives on tv.
But, there’s something I don’t get. What is Scotty’s motivation for revealing this? Did he not get a piece of the action? Ari sure did. Did they forget to bribe Scott?
Didn’t Buchanan use CNN as a launching pad for his 2002 campaign on essentially the same America First platform as Dobbs?
Peterr @ 75: “This is mostly about two things: Scottie selling books, and Scottie settling a few scores.”
Exactly. This is strip-tease to sell books. Weasel words from a weasel. He is as much a whore as Jeff Gannon.
Beam Us Up Scottie!!
(sorry….but SOMEBODY had to do it)
wigwam @ 73
Yeah. I’ll leave it to Christy, Emptywheel and others with encyclopedic knowledge of this case, but I doubt that McClellan’s book says anything Fitz doesn’t know or can act on. A job well-done by a fellow Regian but done, i.e. finished,nonetheless.
xanthippe @ 84
I think Scottie is going to have his hands a little bit full – very very soon.
via @ 83
I’m afraid that’s right. However, I don’t mind dragging the details before the public again and, for a few nights, it averted teh gaze of people like Chris Matthews from Hillary and Barrack.
Using the red herring of “illegal immigration” to hide the smell of decomposing bodies in Iraq is a dicey strategy for Lou and the GOP.
And as ‘Crow points out; the republican fishmongering cadre are already fighting over the herring. If Lou doesn’t hurry up and declare, there won’t be anything left to wave around on his “they’re coming up through the drains!” rants, but the skeleton.
Sorry OT, President of Pakistan may step down from his military post. Link
George Simian @ 36
What a F*ckhead! Dobb’s takes a disease like leprosy (Hansen’s Disease) that has such a pervasive fear mythology attached to it and try to create hysteria. Does he ask a real clinician or specialist about leprosy? No…his intent is to create hysteria.
Leprosy is not a very contagious disease. In modern leprosaria the rate of transmission is practically zero, and in sanitary conditions where the patient is under treatment the rate is also next to nil. That’s why most leprosaria were closed down in the West. Those that are at risk from leprosy are those that live with a leper in unsanitary conditions with shared unwashed bedding or clothing, poor diets and compromised immune systems.
In addition one has to realize that the statistics of hieightened levels are often because the detection of the baccilli involved are caught earlier and preventative treatment can be undertaken to deal with the problem before it would ever reach a communicable stage…even if such conditions occurred in the US. Treatment in the early stages are simple antibiotic treatment.
And Dobbs never seems to be concerned about dealing with the factors that might actually prove the most effective at reducing the risks of these common communicable diseases from spreading in the US. That would be to allow undocumented individuals the opportunity to seek health examination and treatment without threat of imprisonment (where the spread would be even more likely) or deportation.
Dobbs, and the Republican fascists, stance on treatment of immigrant children (even DOCUMENTED ONES) demonstrated just how irrationally anti-immigrant these people are. Such a policy would actually INCREASE the likelihood of the spread of disease, both within and outside the non-immigrant population.
pma @ 86
Good point. If Matthews can get his nose out of Hillary’s underpants long enough to mention it. I hope Christy and Jane and Emptywheel and the rest of the tremendous FDL crew, with their great Libby trial credentials, can find out what Fitz is thinking about this….
George Simian @ 77
I agree that is xenophobia (or nativism) and has been with us for a long time, directed against the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Chinese, etc. And, in an economy driven by supply and demand enlarging the supply with millions of low-paid workers certainly depresses the wages is the low-skill segment of the market. As I mentioned earlier, Caesar Chavez understood this and reported illegal-immigrant farmworkers to the INS. Nothing personal or racist, just business.
old gold @ 82
Yep.
And hey, totally, totally OT, but whattheheck is up with Qwest? Server busy messages too, too often. Somebody stompin’ on their toobz? A NSA hissy fit? Bushie showin’ he’s still re-le-vant? Just askin’.
Christy has a new thread ready.
Good morning all. Christy is upstairs.
Why do you all think McClellan is revealing this? Didn’t he get in on all the war-profit money after he left the White House? Look at Ari. He’s been set-up rather nicely. And so has everyone else. What happened to Scotty?
JF @ 43
And that would take away those votes from whom? Those “Dems” would not have supported Hillary would have likely gone to the Republican nominee. Thus a Dobbs entry effectively removes the “Hillary haters” (other than the Hillary hating “progressives”) from the equation. It removes the argument that “Hillary can’t win” because of the Hillary-haters on the right who would be mobilized from the equation…since those mobilized will not vote for Giuliani, or Romney, or even Huckleberry…but for Dobbs.
But for all the above reasons this is why I think that Dobbs won’t run, and why Paul will likely not run as an independent.
Tanbark @ 88
Immigration is all the Republicans have, so count on hearing a lot more immigrant bashing in the next year. It breaks my heart that so many people get fired up about this.
Even if it’s not racism, I have never seen political rhetoric have such a devastating effect on communities. There are kids going around Latino neighborhoods beating up immigrants – even legal ones. They are throwing rocks through the windows of their shops. They are yelling insults and threatening them if they see them walking home from work. This is the direct result of politicians, like Dobbs and O’Rielly, screaming anti-immigrant rhetoric and playing up people’s ignorance.
solai @ 95
I don’t think there will be any revelations in the book, but this could be a shot across the bows, I suppose. Not sure how his mom and brother feel about Bush after their respectives runs for governor and hopes for HHS posts.
Corporate media player CNN is part of the right wing cabal pimping for Republicans. Dobbs is simply a tool. Think about it…when Dobbs shows equal disgust for both parties, he either turns people off to voting or incites them to waste their vote on an independent candidate. Large numbers of people turning out to vote assures more elected democrats. Historically, republicans do every thing in their power to suppress the vote. A low turn out at the polls or a populist candidate who is a spoiler is their fondest wet dream.
forgive the OT
but CSPAN 1 is showing the FISA markup committee meeting from the 15th
Lou Dobbs, the W.C. Fields of immigration reporting. Don’t fall off the soap box Lou.
wigwam @ 73
Actually the total context is important. Here’s the complete statement I’ve read
“The most powerful leader in the world had called upon me to speak on his behalf and help restore credibility he lost amid the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the senior-most aides in the White House: Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.
There was one problem. It was not true.
I had unknowingly passed along false information.
And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President’s chief of staff, and the president himself.“
So, as I see it, he was UNKNOWING about the falseness of the information at the time it was passed. And then he indicates that “the five” were involved in him doing so. He treats them collectively. He doesn’t treat SOME of them like himself, innocent of the knowledge of the falsehood.
No one anymore disputes that Rove and Libby knew it was false what McClellan was tasked with doing. They knew that they had spoken with reporters and revealed Plame’s employment with the CIA. And it’s pretty clear Bush must have had a conversation with Rove about this… in fact Bush said he had spoken with Rove and was told that Rove was uninvolved. So either Rove blatantly lied to his boss about leaking…a boss that kept him in the Oval office for years after promising to fire anyone involved in the leak; or he told Bush the truth and Bush decided to obstruct the truth, toss Libby to the sharks (”the guy [the President] asked to put his neck in the meatgrinder”) because of an incompetent(s).
Libby’s notes show him asking Cheney for the same protection as Rove was getting, otherwise he would be the scapegoat. This, to this point, has remained ambiguous…although the whole statement about Libby being the one that was asked by the President “to put his neck in the meatgrinder” is telling. He wouldn’ protect one staffer over the other…especially when it came to the one the President actually asked to do “the dirty job” in the butcher shop.
That McClellan DOESN’T SAY:
“I had unknowingly passed along false information. And TWO of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove and Libby.”
It indicates that all of them were just as culpable in encouraging McClellan’s unknowing lie to the American public.
The opening segment of Dobbs yesterday was disgusting.
Dems are ‘playing politics’, apparently, when Jack Murtha puts his foot down over appropriations, and the Pentagon’s bullshit whining.
Dems are ‘playing politics’, apparently, by holding pro forma Senate sessions in order to prevent Bush dumping a heap of unqualified ideologues into government on recess appointments.
The big giant Dobbs-head is just spinning out of control. So, who’s going to take him down?
And if he does want to run, let’s see his tax returns. Because that would be very interesting.
I’ll answer that, Ghostman, even if it’s EPU’d.
The ’security first’ approach is a ’security only’ approach. It kicks the problem of the dysfunctional, underfunded, outdated bureaucracy down the road. And there’s never going to be enough security to deal with the ’security firsters’. It’s an excuse that keeps on giving.
Dobbs has never shown any concern with the nature of the ‘package’ to follow. That’s because he doesn’t give a shit. It’s because he knows he can come back and argue for more security.
Now, why might Dobbs be unconcerned with the bureaucratic reforms? Could it be that USCIS is a department that, by definition, is off the radar of most US citizens? Could it be that he really doesn’t have a clue about the details of immigration law, and doesn’t feel the need to inform himself and his viewers?
Dobbs has offered nothing on what to do after ’securing the borders’, because he knows there’s no ‘after’. The supporters of comprehensive reform know that, given the electoral calendar, there are slender windows to address immigration. Once it becomes an election issue, it’s basically US-born citizens appealing to US-born citizens, where demagoguery has its rewards.
And supporters of comprehensive reform need to make this point: unless you sort out the dysfunctional way that the US handles immigration, out of sight of most voters, no amount of border security is going to be enough.
pseudonymous in nc @ 106
i take issue with just one aspect of your comment (the rest i agree with completely)… the so-called “supporters of comprehensive reform” are no such thing – unless they are willing to also address root causes of migration pressure, such as nafta and our other trade / foreign polices that increase migration pressure and our labor policies here which make it harder to absorb more migration w/o it having an negative affect on workers already here.
The trouble with whack jobs like Dobbs or Tancredo or Duncan Hunter, or the more seriously deranged of American society -like like Robertson and Bush, is that they’ve developed, for the sake of money and power, the very same cruel and bigoted views of the very same people who’ve driven those they attack into taking extreme measures.
They are the English counterparts to those very same Madrassa leaders who teach hate through jihad and fundamentalism.
Only here it can be taught on free american TV.
SanderO @ 33
Jefferson Quote:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
Thomas Jefferson
Sandra, is this true of all corporations? Jefferson seems to be addressing the realities, many Americans experience today. Inflation deflation controlled by interest rates set by Fed Reserve, corporate banks and corporate interests, well represented in government extract vast sums of our finite resources from us too maintain a quality of life and standard of living, which lines their pockets…….
How many will not see Grandma this Thankgiving because of the price of gas, or war?
I wish Dobbs would have mercy on us all and quit. I’ve stopped watching CNN because the “red China” and immigrant-baiting makes watching Dobbs bad for my blood pressure.
Dobbs is the problem not the solution.I have not watched him in forever and have boycotted CNN after the despicable debate(which was a cheerleading fest for Clinton at the expense of the others) last week.They are in my opinon a disgrace to “journalism” and I find him more appalling than most.He breeds hatred to feed his monstrous ego.Let him run and get squashed like the bug he is.Although it is getting more scary on the airwaves than ever-and we as a country are poorer for it.
pseudonymous in nc @ 104
Same as what happened with Pat Buchanan, their big giant heads/egos throw their bodies out of balance and they just tip over and fall. No pushing needed.
There’s more to this Third Party business: America is ready. Or so sez “Kathy Leonard-Bushman” in an email under the banner of WeDemocrats.org, which proclaims itself as “The Voice of America’s Progressives”. WeDemocrats started out as the somewhat tiresome product of Ron McBride, but it seems to have matured and expanded during the past year. Anyway, here’s what she says in a recent e-mail:
I was indulging in some wistful thinking of my own, wanting Al Gore to run as the Green Party candidate.
The point is that we progressives are being ignored by the Democratic Party leadership, which which has haughtily decided that we have nowhere to go, so they’ll get our votes in the end anyway.
Stop this merry-go-round! I want to get off!
Bob in HI
Dobbs is causing me increasing nausea. No matter what the real news is, he blathers about illegals.
He also likes to pretend that Democrats are just playing games now that they are “in charge.” He is the new republican poster boy for shallow thinking.
Dobbs does us all a disservice and I would like to think that CNN will consider getting rid of this egotistical clown.
I suppose that if he didn’t laugh all the way to the bank each night, he’d have trouble sleeping.
I’m thrilled that someone has caught on to the Lou Dobbs scam! He’s a bully who shouts down and cuts off guests who don’t kowtow to his brilliance. He convinces the ignorant to register independent then proposes to run as an indepedant. CNN should be ashamed to present this demagog as news. His show is pure propaganda and those he disparages should get equal time.
Lou Dobbs is a Repug tool. That whole rant about Gov. Spitzer and the driver’s licenses was nothing but free campaign time for the Repugs running for office on the local levels in New York. It didn’t work, so now he’s complaining that those damn Dem Senators that won’t allow Junyah to let his friends join the the treehouse club during recess.
“Unlike Stephen Colbert, who never pretended that his brief dabbling with running was anything more than a publicity stunt and parody of presidential campaigns, the arrogant Dobbs has enough conceit and ambition, along with enough devoted viewers stroking his ego every night, to take himself seriously. And if that’s true, what is CNN doing?”
And just how does his character make Dobbs different from the slug currently occupying the White House? :-)
Journalistic integrity?!
You really don’t watch CNN, do you?
Point completely taken, selise. This, though, is the inherent problem of an immigration debate where the people most tangibly affected have no political voice.
it’s “the pat buchanan law”. you run for President, you quit your show.
Well said Scarecrow. Now let’s hope CNN staff actually read this stuff.
To all Lou Dobb bashers…So who are you going to vote for? Your Republican party system corrupt nominee or your Democrat party system corrupt nominee? I guess America will never get a third party independent President because there are too many sheep voters. Don’t worry about Lou he’s just testing your sheep brains. You’ll get to return to your sheepfold if you know what I mean.