A while back, I wrote a ranting post about how Congress should not go around voting on bills like the Patriot Act and new FISA legislation without, ya know, reading up on the subject. I recommended the comprehensive and very readable reference book recently published by David Kris which lays out all of the applicable law and explains how these laws work together. Evidently, nobody in Congress took that sound advice because I keep hearing drivel about how the government needs to expand FISA to deal with the “ticking bomb” or “Jack Bauer” scenario.
Let me introduce to an important legal term we lawyers sometimes use:
BULLSHIT
[Ed. note: My mother always gets really embarrassed and upset with me when in swear in public, or private, so don't tell her I did this, OK?]
Let me tell you a little bit about what the government could do under FISA even before Congress started monkeying with it:
FISA searches without Judicial Approval:
Under 50 USC §1802 and §1822, the government can conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches without judicial approval, otherwise known as a warrant.
Here’s some relevant language from the statute:
notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance [and physical searches] without a court order … to acquire foreign intelligence for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath
Three essential requirements:
1) Exclusivity — the surveillance must be directed solely at communications channels used exclusively by official foreign powers; or the acquisition of the data must be solely from property owned and exclusively controlled by a foreign power; or the physical search must be directed at property used exclusively be a foreign power.
So, say country X has a nationalized telephone company. The AG can certify an intercept. If country X has a server farm used solely by country x, we can sneak and peek, and so forth Some non state foreign powers composed of non US persons (like the PLO) or cartels made up of foreign states (like OPEC) are considered to be foreign powers. So, Al Qaida would clearly qualify.
2) There can be no substantial likelihood that the search or surveillance will infringe on a US person’s privacy interests.
3) The surveillance must be conducted in accordance with minimization procedures that are reported to Congress.
This provision has a one year certification period.
Further under 50 USC § 1805(g) the AG can authorize:
“Training” of US intelligence personnel and testing of electronic intercept equipment of live US carriers using real US citizens as guinea pigs. The testing and training cannot exceed 90 days without an extension by the AG and the information collected is supposed to be destroyed as soon as the testing is completed (or sooner if feasible depending on the testing requirements—basically as soon as possible) but in any case within 90 days unless the AG certifies that it should be kept longer.
Yep, Firepups, if the intelligence agency wants to test new equipment or train their techies in how to listen in, they can get on the wires and listen in while you fight with your mother over the phone, talk sexy with your significant other, write embarrassing email and have a good chuckle over in the lunch room, because there are no minimization requirements on the training. Good to know that an AG—like Abu Gonzales—gets to decide when these intercepts are destroyed. I feel so much better knowing that, don’t you? (gosh the snark is all the way up to my knees already!)
Lastly, under both FISA and Title III, specifically 18 USC § 2518, which deals with domestic wiretaps used in regular criminal cases: the AG could ALWAYS authorize emergency wiretaps without a warrant for the Jack Bauer scenario. The sole requirement is that the Emergency he is certifying must:
1) specifically involve immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury, or
2) conspiracy activities threatening the national security interest, or
3) conspiracy activities involving organized crime that must be addressed before a warrant can be obtained.
This is under the regular criminal rules!!!! All the AG has to do under either FISA or the Rules of Criminal Procedure is certify and wiretap, then apply for a warrant within 48 hours.
The AG has always had all the power he needed for the Jack Bauer scenario. The Constitutional justification put forth for this by some legal scholars is that the authority for this rests on the 4th Amendment exception for exigent circumstances, though the legislative history in the statutes is not explicit on this point. The exigent circumstances exception allows other warrant-less searches to prevent destruction of evidence (like flushing the dope down the john) or to prevent harm to a person (so if I hear the hostage screaming inside, I don’t have to wait for a warrant before I break down the door to save her).
Another source of authority under existing FISA laws for the AG to authorize warrantless wiretapping and physical searches is under 50 USC §1811 and §1829. Notwithstanding any other law, the AG may authorize electronic surveillance, physical searches, or pen/trap surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information for a a period not to exceed 15 days after the declaration of war by Congress.
Can an argument be made that the AUMF triggers this provision? I would not be comfortable arguing that in court, but maybe John Yoo doesn’t suffer from my delicate sensibilities.




250 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
me me me?
LooseHeadProp!
Wow! What a cool post. Does congress know that they can already do the Jack Bauer stuff?
((((((((( LooseHeadProp)))))))))))
Happy Thanksgiving.
Cassie got the zed!
looseheadprop @ 5
Great post and congrats to Cassie.
looseheadprop @ 5
Yep!
And cassie is being a blog whore for a new thanksgiving post about poverty.
Hey loosehead, wishing you and Little Prop a happy Thanksgiving. And don’t worry, we won’t tell your mom that you said a bad word.
Yeah, they could always do all that stuff, but only with oversight and accountability. Those are anathema to Cheney and Addington.
Cassie – Congrats! Is it your first?
LHP–Wonderful post – well, I got as far as your technical legal term and started laughing (literally) out loud.
Gotta go back and read the post. I really look forward to your lucid yet passionate legal writings.
Thank you and
Happy Thanksgiving LHP
I digg it
LHP, I need a brief reality check…of course everyone, Congress and Admin knows all this…so WHY DO they want all these surveillance powers In your opinion?
No, I got lots of zeds in the summer when I was on the computer more.
Speaking of bad words,
this is exactly why I get so pissed off about Bush and his warrantless wiretap program.
LHP demonstrates, with no wiggle room, above that they already had, have and will continue to have, the ability to obtain as fast as physically possible, any number of information streams and/or sneak and peeks.
The thing that Bush is all pissy about is the accountability, AGAIN.
He feels that he should be able to do all these things at will for as long as he damn well pleases without EVER having to justify them to a judge.
WRONG-O BUCKO.
RonD @ 12
1) they want to spy on companies for other companies
2) they want to spy on political campaigns
3) they want to spy on people from their admin who want to write new books about them
4) they want to know if alexis and joey kissed or if they did a lot more
I think looseheadprop has earned enough reputation to be able to contact directly some the politicians that matter and discuss these issues
we need the bloggers at the lake to have a pipeling to the people that really represent us in washington
SnarKassandra @ 7
Cassie, great post. Thanks for sharing and somehow I know that your comments will make a difference. Happy Thanksgiving.
So LHP if they didn’t need all the BULLSHIT what do they need to pass nude legislation? It must be something else… no?
I don’t get it… and aren’t staffers supposed to bone up on this stuff and give an exec summary to their congress critter so they don’t sound so dumb?
So– if they can do these things already, within old FISA, why are they making such a stink about revising it? Seems to me BushCheneyCo would have been better off pleading exigent circumstances and leaving the law alone, re-certifying the need every ninety days.
If they are really only eavesdropping on terrorists, which I don’t believe for a minute.
Maybe? I think that is taken as given.
Does the United States own a little island somewhere to which we could exile these clowns, like Napoleon on St. Helena? Maybe we could buy St. Pierre et Miquelon from France …
burnspbesq @ 21
Could it be a very small isle with a very active volcano, please.
[mod note: Please do not suggest, insinuate, threaten or wish physical violence or harm on anyone, including public officials, both current and former. It is not tolerated here at FDL. We are not like those on the other side. Thank you.]
I don’t believe they have any decent intelligence from all the chatter they listen to.
How many Al Quada are there anyway? Anyone hazard a guess?
burnspbesq @ 21
You’ve forgotten Cuba. The facilities are all ready to receive new guests…
TeddySanFran @ 19
Wonder if they are eavesdropping on each other.
Bush on Cheney. Cheney on Bush. A loop of noxious intent.
SnarKassandra @ 15
number one and number two nails it on the head, they want to steal information for the purpose of profit and power, that’s what this is really about
they want to have an upper hand whenever they are wondering what political tools a politician will bring to an issue or a vote, and they want to be able to examine bussiness plans they have an interest so they will have the upper hand in bargaining.
they can also use this information to pressure bussinesses into breaking our law.
it’s about money and power, they want to stay in power so they can keep taking as much money and assets as possible
Karl Rove. You are just about ‘a has-been’. The result of your activities and grandiose scheme for a Republican majority for as far as the eye could see has been unraveled. HRC will probably be our next president. Clinton beat the crap out of you. And I’m glad. Mr. Rove, you are a putzmeister. You, Karl, will be resigned to the dust-bin of historical libraries of failed presidents, under the heading of ‘Lee Atwater and company’.
RonD @ 12
Can you say “Unitary
MonarchyExecutive” ????SanderO @ 23
More than there were in December, 2001.
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Oh heavens, these provisions would require the eavesdropper to do some work, not just scoop up everything in earshot, not to mention, gasp, submit to oversight by that pipsqueak body claiming to be a co-equal branch with the ominipotent president:
under both FISA and Title III, specifically 18 USC § 2518,
2) There can be no substantial likelihood that the search or surveillance will infringe on a US person’s privacy interests.
3) The surveillance must be conducted in accordance with minimization procedures that are reported to Congress.
The other thing they don’t want to admit about the ‘ticking bomb’/24 scenario is that
if they already know it’s been planted, and
they already have caught someone who knows about it,
they have, or should have if they’re at all competent in investigation (let’s not go into the competency, okay?),
the information they need to find the bomb … because they had enough to identify who was involved, and catch them,
and that should tell them which places they should be looking.
And as for you Scott McClellan, words have not yet been invented, as far as I know, to describe you.
I don’t think they are interested in information about regular working people. I think it is possible that they are watching organized crime with connections overseas…also, they may be watching people within the government and their business and personal interactions with foreigners…also, they may be watching espionage suspects….also, they may be watching opposition parties and opposition groups that may threaten the longevity of their control of the country…also, they may be looking for stuff to blackmail those they wish to control. Who knows?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
that’s if they aren’t able to fix the machines enough for the next election
in addition they have something planned, we don’t know what it is yet but something big is gonna happen that they are counting on to get some voters to the boothes or to keep people from the boothes
one or the other, time will tell
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
Overstuffed snake.
JPL @ 22
Or one of those atolls that are already being submerged by rising sea levels:
http://www.iht.com/articles/20…..acific.php
Thanks, looseheadprop, for another great informational post.
‘Tis enough to make one bang one’s head against the wall, repeatedly.
Why will none of our “leaders” call this surveillance scam a scam? And since when are we supposed to be fighting “scenarios” based on teevee drivel?
I guess this is what the twilight of empire is SUPPOSED to feel like, with all liberties and sensible thinking flushed away….it is to weep.
[Love to all Firepups! Must go out, will be back shortly.]
TeddySanFran @ 19
Well, they might be spying on some terrorists as well…. At least maybe by accident
looseheadprop @ 28
Yeah, in addition to SnK’s list, I was just hoping there was another one, something less structurally damaging to the US.
Need ta locate enemies of the govt. and this govt. has a LOT of enemies!
Do they spy on bloggers?
LS–
So, is this the real LS, not the beeping meeping bushbot we saw at Late Night?(welcome back to the real LS)
“Donald Trump was on Live with Regis and Kelly today to talk about his MTV show “Pageant Place.” But before talk went light, Regis asked The Donald some questions about the economy. Donald is enraged at the oil price, creeping towards $100/barrel, and blames it on a failure of leadership. “We don’t have anybody calling these leaders and saying, ‘You get that damn oil price down.’ Because it’s a joke….Between the oil companies and these oil-producing states, what’s going on is a disgrace. And we don’t have the people to talk it down.” Donald then boldly declared, “I’d talk it down to 10!”
Kinda funny- that’s what Clusterfuck said when he was running for prez.
marymccurnin @ 35
Jaekelopterus Rhenaniae
SnarKassandra @ 41
Yes.
As soon as Bush was appointed king I knew we would all be made the enemy.
LHP–
Thanks for the great primer!
And thanks for laying out the “Exclusivity” clause. Now can you please explain to us what DiFi was doing with the Exclusivity clause that got so much attention during the SJC markup of the FISA bill? The other senators were tripping all over themselves praising DiFi for her work on this clause, but I have no clue what they were talking about.
Aloha,
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 41
YEP.
rwcole @ 43
And can we imagine how often we’d be seeing the clip of that campaign promise had it been said by a Democratic president?
tejanarusa @ 42
Yeah, I was trying to escape being spied on by the NSA by wearing my antimicrowave tinfoil hat, so I thought I should act like a good little Homelandian…then I figured they wouldn’t believe me anyway..so I’m back. Oh, yeah…Impeach!!
SnarKassandra @ 41
We would all be insulted if they didn’t *g*
tejan
Yeah- Wish they’d run it nighly as they announce the latest price per barrel- with the chiron “Statement by Candidate Bush when oil was $22 per barrel- TODAY’S prive- $99.57.
marymccurnin @ 25
If Bush was smart (I know, I know…) he’d watch Cheney like a hawk. That he doesn’t is testament to yet another failure of the MBA Presidency.
RonD @ 45
I know that my site has been visited by the DOJ, along with C*FA, from the site logs. And I’m nobody. The DOJ hit followed a comment from me here back to my site.
bobschacht @ 47
I don’t know. They don’t invite little ole’ me to conference committee meetings
76% of americans will have Turkey this thanksgiving….
20% will have ham
3% will enjoy an intravenous meal
The rest aren’t sayin
LS @ 33
They also seem to be interested in political intelligence. As emptywheel sez over at TNH,
I am Shocked, SHOCKED!, that the Bush administration might use its security snooping powers to collect information it can use for political gamesmanship! {/snark}
Bob in HI
RonD @ 54
Maybe they just liked your comment…maybe they were secretly “blogging” on the job!!! s/
rwcole @ 56
How many are vegetarians?
Kassandra
Don’t know- I made up all the numbers after the first one- from Rasmussen.
SnarKassandra @ 59
Are you vegetarian, Cassie? What will be your main dish tomorrow?
SnarKassandra @ 59
How many are having spam. Spam spam spam spam…
RonD @ 54
During the Libby trial, DOJ , CSA and WH ISPs were all over the sie meter. They were followong the rial from the live blogging.
I used to imaine that SHrub (who likes “the google”) was spending his days sitting in the Oval reading the live blog.
That fantasy used to crack me up
How many are having Ramen soup?
Here’s the real study:
Eighty-three percent (83%) plan on spending Thanksgiving either at home or with relatives. Seven percent (7%) say they will eat at friends’ houses and 4% will eat at restaurants. Only 4% do not plan on eating Thanksgiving dinner.
For most Thanksgiving dinners, 76%, turkey will be the main course. Six percent (6%) plan to eat ham and 9% will eat something else. Forty-six percent (46%) expect they will eat too much on the holiday, whole 41% think they will exhibit more self-control.
The price of oil has NOT gone up… if you are pumping oil out of the ground and are forced to sell it in dollars the dollar dips and the price of oil rises and you make the same money and move MORE PRODUCT. The oil exporters are getting screwed by the tanking dollar.
Of course anyone who wants to import anything is getting screwed too.. or who wants to travel over seas.
We stuck here with useless money and nothing to buy except cheap slave labor produced Chinese crap whose currency is pegged to the dollar.
We’re screwed.
This is actually my hope, just someone at DOJ reading FDL and decided to look at it…the other one, C*FA, worried me more.
Hey- we can all buy bigger TeeVees- that’s SOMETHING.
On CNN, Gloria Borger says of the McClellan allegation: “Nobody cares anymore.”
Borger is hereby nominated for worst person of the day. She is also one of the worst corporate journalists ever.
marymccurnin @ 62
couldn’t resist
I am going with my brother and his GF up to Fort Worth. Her parents live there. We’re leaving at 11 tonight when he finishes work. And we’re going to a vegetarian Thanksgiving feast tomorrow with eggplant parmasan and salad and pie and corn on the cob and some other stuff. I already made a tray of brownies to bring and a second tray for my aunt and my cousin to bring to where they’re going tomorrow. And I made cranberry relish with the blender, oranges, cranberries and sugar.
is there a short definition for pen/trap surveillance?
I feel terrible on Thanksgiving since it celebrates the appropriation of native lands and the beginning of their genocide.
White men like their genocide and slavery don’t they?
1,665 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Great post (though my head still hurts from beatin’ it against the wall after readin’ it)…I have said for a long time that the best thing for the Democrats ta do with the FISA bill is ta let this abomination sunset and let the old LAW back in. That would shove the administration to the edge of impeachment in the last session of Congress before a potentially major political power shift.
In my opinion, bringin’ up FISA revision while workin’ under the old law would allow us a clear look at the evidence of what has been done illegally since 2001 and would not only inform a new law but would cement the politics needed ta force the remnants of the Republican Party officeholders ta break with the fascist oligarchy.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION…WE’RE GUNNA NEED A LOT MORE BEFORE THE FIGHT IS OVER!!
Great post. The Administration’s arguments are nothing about a shell game, a bait and switch.
It is one of the aspects of fighting against the horrendous changes in the FISA law that has bothered for a while: that FISA and other statutes already place a really low bar for wiretapping. What the Administration wants to do is essentially do away with any pretense of 4th Amendment protections.
Snarkasandra, eggplant parmesan is AWESOME.
rwcole @ 68
We just got a TV in our room last week. It is an old one that a neighbor gave us so he can get a flat new one. Now Aunt Betsy can have the living room back sometimes. :)
LS @ 64
Well, there’s this lady, whose house is about to be foreclosed on as a result of [extremely] predatory loans. See Bob Herbert’s column today (no more firewall!)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..Editorials and Op-Ed/Op-Ed/Columnists
SnarKassandra @ 41
Mostly.
Frank33 @ 69
Ellis Island spelling is all that separates her from her dear ancestor, Lucretia.
tejanarusa @ 78
people are WAY too greedy
Frank33 @ 69
Dam*n. I used to like her, several years ago. Thought she was fairly liberal and sensible. But then, that was before blogs and internet access to everything, and I was much more ignorant than I knew.
“spy on bloggers”
Don’t know if that’s possible- like “spying” on the local newspaper by READING it.
SnarKassandra @ 71
Cassie,
For the next holiday, add a cored apple slices when you make the cranberry relish. I hope you left the skin on the orange as well. Just treat the apple like you do the orange and cranberries in the food processor.
Oh wow- three men arrested in the Natalie Halloway case….
Three more months of wall to wall coverage no doubt.
dakine01 @ 84
yes, I left the peel on the orange. But I used a blender and not a food processor. I will do apples next time.
SanderO @ 23
There are 200 or 2000 or 20,000. If we attack Iran there will be 20 million.
Where are the Al Qaeda? They are in the Carlyle group.
What cable teevee do they have to watch the defeatist Democrats on C-Span? That is classified.
SnarKassandra @ 81
Especially those artifical “persons,” corporations. If you’ve read Herbert’s column, it will break your heart. Again.
Multiply this poor woman by tens, or hundreds of thousands. 2 million foreclosures forecast in a year or two. They won’t all be as destitute as this woman, but there will be plenty like her.
rwcole @ 83
But do they also look at who we send emails to and listen to our phone calls and know if we buy music onlne?
Frank33 @ 69
Minor editing added.
I know from rants, lhp. Thanks so much for the excellent recap of current law and operational realities in this post. [I saw a bit of David Kris on C-SPAN today - sharp cookie; also saw a Bowman of the FBI SES, on the same panel, pointing out that FISA Judges are often very unfamiliar with the modern technologies (how they work, what they are) of today’s spying agencies. If FISA judges are so uninformed, I can only imagine how clueless most Members of Congress are. High-tech crash courses required for Congress and the FISA court, STAT, please, someone.]
Here’s my FISA rant about Harry Reid:
According to a slanted observer working for Dow Jones News Service, who spoke to C-SPAN today:
1. Harry Reid is apparently ignoring Chris Dodd’s publicly announced hold on any FISA legislation that includes forgiveness of past lawbreaking (”immunity”) for the telecommunications corporations to such an extent that the hold doesn’t even merit a mention as Reid announces the immunity bill he “will” be bringing to the Senate floor in December. [Against all precedent and normal procedure regarding holds in the Senate.]
2. Harry Reid plans to bring the Senate Intelligence Committee bill (written privately by Jay Rockefeller and Kit Bond in consultation with the White House, but not with the other members of the Intelligence Committee, until the deal was done and presented, per Russ Feingold) to the floor as is. Those Senators who acquiesced in the flawed and undemocratic process behind closed doors in the Intelligence Committee that allowed the (private) deal-making on that bill are the only members of the Senate who have been entrusted with – supposedly – full knowledge, on behalf of every other member of the Senate, about the warrantless domestic security surveillance, and ought to be acting accordingly, with (far, far more) skeptical caution and care.
3. After Harry Reid brings the Intelligence Committee FISA bill to the floor (with its comprehensive and sweeping immunity provisions), he will then ‘allow’ an amendment to be offered – which may be filibustered and would therefore require 60 votes to pass (ensuring defeat) – by the Judiciary Committee in order to substitute their own version of the bill (probably amended since voted out of committee) for the Intelligence Committee’s version already on the floor (with Rockefeller and the Republicans vehemently protesting the substitute amendment every step of the way).
4. Behind closed doors, I believe the effort right now is to “compromise” on immunity (Leahy was already making noises about that last Thursday) in such a way that 60 votes will approve whatever amendment is worked out in private.
Until Harry Reid reappears from wherever he’s in hiding during the two-week break, and clarifies his position to the contrary, these are the facts that are on the public record, and we should take them at face value, and plan accordingly (as Russ Feingold, for one, already seems to have done with his statement on Friday that Christy posted on Saturday).
If good faith Senators (Whitehouse?, Cardin?, Leahy?) really must “compromise” in the name of forestalling allegedly looming billion-dollar penalties on law-breaking corporations – why must they do it now?? Wait until the process plays out – let the chips fall where they may, and once we know what happened, and the Judicial Branch has done its work, if exorbitant fines are assessed and not voluntarily waived by those bringing suit – then start worrying about passing legislation to relieve the burden on corporate stockholders… But don’t anticipate the worst, when “state secrets” so far has been the trump card (and an obviously welcome one to the corporations, as they haven’t once challenged its assertion, as I believe Mary has perceptively pointed out @ TNH), and not one penny of liability has yet come close to being assessed.
Was looking for turkey recipes in some rather old recipe books- came across instructions for “drawing” your Turkey- no- you don’t need colored pencils—it’s how to remove the insides….People used to actually KILL the turkey and then go from there- IMAGINE!
KASSIE
BEATS ME.
Cassie,
Parmesean is cheese and that is an animal product.
Drive carefully and have a safe return!
Slight interruption for laughter–
my dozing cat on the table next to the desk fell asleep and fell off. Good to have live-in entertainment when contemplating the depressing state of the world.
SnarKassandra @ 86
If you’re doing it in the blender, just cut the apple a little smaller than otherwise. Actually, if you can find access to an old meat grinder, that is about the best way to make the relish. Medium grind alternating pieces of orange, apple, and cranberries then adding the sugar at the end and all mixed up. We always had it at T’giving and Christmas
rwcole @ 83
Of course it’s spying if government agents are being paid to read blogs and report up the chain to their superiors, summarize themes, and identify traffic patterns as we travel from one blog to another.
Sander O – I never said we were VEGAN.
looseheadprop @ 55
Well, yes, but I was hoping you had access to the transcript of the meeting and could tell us from that what was up. Technically, they were having an “Executive Business Meeting” on Nov. 15 & 16 in which the first item on the agenda was “S.2248, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2007.” Leahy’s opening statement for the hearing on October 31 is online, as are other statements for that hearing, but I don’t see any links for transcripts of the Executive Business meeting yet.
Peterr or anyone else got links?
Bob in HI
My theory is that W is trying to legislate fascism and he is succeeding.
There are only 2 or 3 ethical people who blab on the teevee. These rest are shills and part of the problem, not part of the solution.
[mod note: Comment edited by Moderator. As noted earlier in the thread: Please do not suggest, insinuate, threaten or wish physical violence or harm on anyone, including public officials, both current and former. It is not tolerated here at FDL. We are not like those on the other side. Thank you.]
SnarKassandra @ 89
That’s how Total Information Awareness works. The only way to detect terroristic patterns is to have a lively, non-terroristic background to pick them out of. That background is us.
If Jack Bauer really, really has to torture somebody to avert a catastrophe, then he will do so, irrespective of the law (which would probably require time-consuming review up the hierarchy anyway). If he’s right, it’s unlikely he’ll be indicted, very unlikely that he’ll be convicted, and very very unlikely that he’ll get more than a wrist-slap probation. (”Now, Jack, you can’t torture anyone for the next six months.”) Even if he’s wrong, he’ll have several chances to persuade people that he thought he was doing the right thing. The odds against him suffering beyond perhaps losing his job are enormous.
But if he was indulging some power trip, he should be indicted, tried, punished. And he should think it over before getting out his waterboard.
Incidentally, this is how the common law deals with such extreme emergencies. In law school we read 19th century two cases, US v Holmes and Regina v. Dudley, involving the arrest and trial of men who had killed one or more people on their lifeboat, to improve the odds for the rest. Both men were convicted and given very light sentences.
SnarKassandra @ 98
Hiya Cas, care to share that recipe for Cranberry Relish ?
Our Canadian Thanksgiving was in October and Christmas is 2 weeks away (just kidding) and I’d like to make it then.
Thanks !
Oh look at this!
Guns for turkeys: Wis. man helps needy (AP)
A man in failing health has sold his hunting rifles to buy 100 turkeys for needy families this Thanksgiving.
You said a vegetarian eggplant parmesean.. it’s hardly vegetarian when it has cheese. Or it’s an odd kind of vegetarian.. no?
Petro, it is on the back of the bag of cranberries. 1 bag of cranberries, 1 large orange (yes peel no pits) either 1 or 2 cups sugar. 1 blender
SanderO @ 105
vegetarian means no MEAT! no turkey. no ham.
Stuart Eugene Thiel @ 102
I know that 24 is a popular show and Kiefer is a Canuck, but I watched 30 minutes of one show and turned it off … suspected terrorists have Habeas Corpus and we fire journalists who condone torture …
SanderO @ 105
Did you see her response?
VEGANS avoid all animal products. Ordinary vegetarians, non-vegan, do use dairy products. Sometimes those who use dairy and eggs define themselves as “lacto-ovo vegetarians.” But, of course, the definitions are somewhat loose.
rwcole @ 68
Well, brushing aside the snark, my teevee blew a gasket last week, so after having a repairman come out and verify that I’d fried the transformer, I got to thinking about a bigger teevee. Mine’s a 27 inch, which is considered small right now, but in my one-bedroom apartment, it seems plenty big. It’s a big honker of a set (picture tube & all), probably weighs 30-40 pounds. If I bought a new set, I’d have to get rid of this one, and get a new one in, and the prices are about 3-4x what it would cost to fix this one. So thank you Sears for still hiring service technicians that actually know how to fix things instead of just throwing them away.
Bob in HI
WASHINGTON (AP) — Two days before Thanksgiving the Senate had a 22-second session, a fleeting moment in the life of an occasionally droning body but plenty of time for majority Democrats to keep President Bush from making “recess” appointments.
Senators have been taking turns standing sentry duty this week — just to prevent Bush from circumventing the confirmation process by immediately installing people in federal posts while the chamber is in recess. Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., who carried out that less than glamorous task Tuesday, is a relative newcomer, a low-ranking freshman and a senator who lives just minutes from the Capitol; he wielded his gavel before an empty chamber Tuesday, devoid of senators and even the young pages who serve as messengers.
“I’d much rather be doing this than allow the president to skirt the confirmation process in the Senate,” Webb said in a statement. “This is an exercise in protecting the Constitution and our constitutional process.”
SanderO @ 66
That isn’t quite an accurate picture. If you are an oil producer selling it for dollars, AND you are buying stuff for dollars, like mucho armaments from the US as the Saudis, the Emirates, Kuwait, etc. are doing, things just be dandy.
Your logic only works if the oil producer is buying stuff that ain’t priced in dollars. Stuff that is priced in Chinese Yuans for example.
I would guess that the Saudis ain’t buying too many lead-painted Chinese toys, so the Dollar/Yuan exchange rate don’t mean diddly.
My central point is that there is more AND less to what meets the eye in the discussion about the dollar exchange rate.
SanderO @ 105
Methane is also an animal byproduct but I’m betting no one eats that … there is a difference between vegetarian and vegan ...
My brother doesn’t like me to watch 24 or anything else with that kind of violence.
This is my all time favorite cranberry relish recipe.
Susan Stamberg’s (of NPR) Cranberry Relish Recipe
SnarKassandra @ 106
Core and slice one apple as well. Wash and cull the cranberries. :})
marymccurnin @ 62
There are people here in Hawaii who prefer Spam to Turkey for Thanksgiving.
Bob in HI
What is culling?
SnarKassandra @ 106
Thanks … I’ll be sure to add dakine01’s cored apple.
SnarKassandra @ 118
***
Cull: sorting out the “bad” ones…
bobschacht @ 110
Why, Bob, you restore my faith in the ability of (some) men to be sensible about such things as tv’s and other electronic gadgets.
Most guys I know would use the heaven-sent excuse of a fried transformer to rush right out for the biggest new big-screen they could afford (or not) and fit on the wall.
In the interests of full disclosure, some of the biggest fights my ex and I had were over buying a new, bigger, more bells-and-whistles tv (multiple times). He dug in his heels like it was a matter of life and death.
Eureka Springs @ 72
A pen register traps the numbers that call into the # under surveillnace and traps the numbers calle dout from the # under survillance.
It’s like the call log on your cellphone
dakine01 @ 116
Thank you Sir !
Eureka Springs @ 115
This cranberry relish recipe is like I learned growing up. Down to the meat grinder used.
SnarKassandra @ 118
Picking out the bad/soft cranberries
SnarKassandra @ 118
… sounds like something done to Seals …
LS @ 64
It’s a staple — best with broccoli and celery and maybe a little chili oil.
Kids love it too — especially when “there’s nothing to eat”.
bobschacht @ 117
Folks do marvelous things with Spam in the islands as I recall.
There is also soy cheese as a cheese substitute. It’s been a long time since I had any, but as I recall, it’s not awful or anything. I think there’s a soy version of “mozzarella.”
[…got back here again quickly. Am still sending love to all Firepups….]
Mrs. K8!
rwcole @ 111
To AP I say, “there ya go again, leaving out the money quote.”
I heard an interview with Webb this a.m.
When asked why he/the Senate was “doing this,” his immediate response was:
“To preserve the Constitution.”
Followed by more pointed explanations about the Consitutional damage done by the Presnit in past recesses.
Petrocelli @ 113
Does it count if you breathe it? (Methane is a gas.)
Bob in HI
looseheadprop @ 122
Thank you.. Been wondering about that for a long while.
Frank33 @ 69
Who – Gloria Boredom?
There is a spiral cut, honey glazed ham out there with my name on it.
And Gravy.
Mashed taters and gravy and ham.
MMmmm HMmmmm , taters.
SnarKassandra @ 107
Yes, but what about the egg in the eggplant?
Pow wow at 91–Wow! That coulda been a post on its own. We have so much knowledge in this place!
bobschacht @ 99
Under most open meeting laws when a body goes into “executive Sessio” that discussion is not public. Do you know if this is the same thing?
tejanarusa –
Boy, am I lucky.
Mr. K8 takes personal offense at any applicance or gadgets which dare to give up the ghost on his watch. He’s highly motivated to fix stuff, if only to prove to himself that he can. We’ve thus saved tons of money — he’s fixed a teevee, two dishwashers, a 1938 Sears Silvertone radio, a 1948 gorgeous chrome/stainless mixer set, a microwave, various computers and components, etc.
And I always praise him to the skies for it. Wanna reward that good behavior — when the male ego works in YOUR favor, it’s a good thing. :-)
Got some guys in the backyard workin on the spa and smokin marlboros—MMM that looks GOOD….When I get old enough, I’m gonna start smokin again.
OT, but if you haven’t seen this, it is a great report card on Junya’s War on Terra – Via the Balkinization blog: David Cole’s Report Card on Terror (pdf).
pseudonymous in nc @ 80
No – I went to school with her and I think you’d be closer to Eastern Europe rather than Italy, frankly.
Hugh @ 136
LOL !!!
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you … see ya on Late Nite Cas!
Dang!
My hat is off to Mr. K8!
neokneme @ 130
Hey sweetie, good to see you again! Hope you are doing well, even though these be sad days in the twilight of the Republic.
Petrocelli @ 126
“Culling” is a polite word for killing. Per Wiki:
Bob in HI
Shuscter on Hardball with Tweety discussing the Plame case right now….
I believe that you can cull ANYTHING- dead or alive! Rocks, grain, worn out dollar bills, worthless presidents, anything. You don’t HAVE ta kill em after ya cull em.
looseheadprop @ 137
Well, it was replayed on CSPAN, not live, but later the same day. So that means CSPAN has the tape or DVD or electronic file.
Bob in HI
Retired Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top commander in Iraq shortly after the fall of Baghdad, said this week he supports Democratic legislation that calls for most troops to come home within a year.
I don’t know if I will be on late night. Have to finish packing and we’re driving north at 11.
Wow, thanks for the legal background, lhp. Really puts the current debates into perspective. It seems that the authors of the original FISA had already thought of most of the problems before 9/11 and the GWOT. As usual we’ve been conned.
Bustednuckles –
And that’s a mighty fine hat you’ve got there! Yup, I lucked out.
When Mr. K8 was a toddler, practically still crawling around on the floor, he swiped a portable wind-up alarm clock and took it apart.
And then he put it back together again.
It’s no surprise that all his favorite jobs have involved figuring out how stuff works. The job he has now is perfect — almost every new customer brings a new type of electro-mechanical problem to solve.
Mrs. K8 @ 138
SnarKassandra @ 107
Yeah!!! Some people leave out dairy and all of that also…some people eat fish, but no meat. I think the creative vegetarian dishes are great these days, compared to brown rice and unidentifiable thingys they used to have back in the hippie days…yuck…I have a friend who makes some outstanding things with vegetable and oranges, and all kinds of stuff…Have a really fun time!!! (Shhhh…maybe someone will save you some fixin’s or at least some punkin’ pie!)
Thanks so much for this post LHP.
I had it in mind when I did my last blog – which maybe 10’s of people read – but could not remember which post your comment was in (BTW the link is broken). I knew about the exigent circumstances but didn’t know which specific statutes. I’m going to link to this post
And for what it’s worth, I agree with pow wow @ 91
And both of you put it much better than I ever could
I’ve always been a take it apart kinda guy too- just never could get the “put it back together” part goin for me.
LS I don;t like pumpkin pie. Save me pecan, ok?
neokneme @ 127
We try to have some around, and I like the veggies added and drop in an egg…
SnarKassandra @ 157
Pecan and ice cream?
burnspbesq @ 21
Actually, I think Crawford, Tx would serve.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
OKK, well it didn’t take what? 24 hours? He’s already retracted.
About the “ticking time bomb” scenario, an intelligence officer involved in three wars including Iraq was interviewed on NPR recently. He said, in the real world, the Jack Bauer scenario, never happened in his experience. He isn’t the only one. So, I suspect that the argument for revising FISA with this scenario in mind is disingenuous.
Coming up next on Hardball “What did the President know and when did he know it” – if only history could do a quick two step repetition right now….
LS @ 159
sounds great!
rwcole @ 156
LOL!!! I’m like that too!
When Mr. K8 teaches kids (and subordinates at work) how to do that sort of thing well, he always says the secret is to CAREFULLY lay out the stuff you disassemble, in order, never ever losing any bits. Then you put it back together in reverse order. And if you have to, you keep notes and little sketches as memory aids.
So why is Jack Bauer so interested in ticking time bongs anyway? I think the issue is way overblown.
Pecan is a whole different word in Texas–as I recall- it’s pronounced peee-CAN but it’s been a while since I’ve lived there.
We’re havin’ a turkey, mashed taters & giblet gravy, Granny’s homemade cornbread dressing (not sweet)(I just remembered, I have to make the cornbread tonight), green bean/mushroom soup/cheese casserole with water chestnuts in it, and Pumpkin pie with whipped cream. Same old, same old…that’s why we like it.
rwcole @ 166
PEEkan
pma @ 160
I like the idea of Devil’s Island. Is that place still extant? Where, if they want a little protein in their meals, they have to catch it — just like in the movie Papillon.
LOL! Looseheadprop, I am not a lawyer, and you are losing me with this technical jargon.
Cassie
Thank you —couldn’t remember.
rwcole @ 166
No sir. Most of what is said about Texans here is true, but not that one. It’s Pee’cahn.
The best “side” dish I ever had for Thanksgiving was chestnut puree. OMG.
Mrs. K8 @ 169
I think they should be jailed in a Walmart.
Hugh @ 165
Ticking time bongs are a grave and gathering threat…
RonD @ 175
Have you read “The Holly Bibel”, for people who think spelling isn’t important.
LHP – the bullshit comment was priceless!!! The information in this post is amazing, and I think that it should be “spotlighted”.
RonD @ 175
You can smell them a mile away.
RonD @ 175
They need to be smoked out of wherever they’re hiding.
Can still remember my grandmother’s candied yams every thanksgiving—roasted yams swimming in sugar, melted marshmallows, candied cherries, etc. Looked beautiful- tasted like SHIT- could never eat them- but loved looking at em.
mary @ 174 –
I like your alternative, too. Jailed at Walmart — locked in and forced to work overtime with no breaks, without getting paid for it.
Mrs. K8 @ 181
The Mariannas. Petrie dish for capitalism.
Hugh, if you’re ever in central FL, the drinks are on me. :)
pma @ 182
And all of the women who were used as slave labor will be their “managers”.
Just so it is clear, exigent circumstances alone is not enough for a legal search or seizure. There must still be probable cause (as required for every arrest and/or search under the Fourth Amendment). Exigent circumstances only excuses the need for a warrant.
bk @ 185
Sort of like that cop on digby. Did you see him going thru their car?
Off to face grocery-store Purgatory. LHP, you’re a treasure. See everyone later.
john in sacramento @ 155
Thanks for the link!
RonD @ 183
After I have had a few, they’re usually on me or the carpet.
Eureka Springs @ 115
ES, that’s mine too!
Here is sort of how I make carmelized pearl onions: link
SnarKassandra @ 168
Y’all DO hear the difference there, don’cha?
Hugh @ 189
lmao!
Aargh! What a day! Computer problems up the gazoo… Using a piece of crap loaner…
Cheney is in the cross hairs….Heh.heh.heh.
Welcome, CT! Come on in and relax. The pie isn’t quite ready but you can have a drink.
This thread is really quite serious, but the impending holiday is taking over in the last 1/2 hour or so.
CTuttle @ 193
marymccurnin @ 186
No, the cop in Utah seems to have violated the driver’s civil rights, seems to have used excessive force, was not acting within the lawful course of his duties but may have had “probable cause” to stop the car because it may have been speeding.
A bit of my legal practice has been in municipal law with cities, towns and counties. Sometimes you see situations where the people who sit on the councils and boards never bother to read their own ordinances but act on what they think is the ordinance. Otherwise rumor and hearsay. Usually though, the local elected officials will actually read and try try to deal with what’s written down before they act on it. Sounds like a lot of those in Congress don’t understand this approach.
Hugh @ 189
Well, sincerely. You are a fount of humor, knowlege, AND wisdom, and I know some GOOD bartenders. It would be a pleasure.
Now gone for real…
(bows, folds umbrella under arm, and exits screen-left.)
Mahalo, tejana! I read Redd’s earlier post, then it went downhill fast… Hmmm… Big Brother?
Well, y’all have a fine Thanksgiving.
I’ll be popping in tomorrow from my Dads place.
Happy T-Day, Busted!
rwcole @ 180
We always have a huge crowd at my mom’s for Thanksgiving. My mother lives with my youngest sister in a “mother/daughter” house so there are two kitchens.
Despite that, I just put in the 3rd Turkey (yep third) for it’s overnight slow cook. ANd I’m doing two sides and an appitizer.
We prbaly have 30 sides and about a dozen desserts and end up with dinner tables set up in lamost every room in the house.
One year we had a whole buch of FBI trainees who could not get home from the FBI training academy at Quantico. We always end up with electeic folks who had last minute problems withtheir own plans. It’s so great.
As I remember, Gonzo and the adminstration argued that even the emergency procedures effectively made the AG insture that millions of i’s were dotted and t’s crossed before he could endorse, so it wouldn’t be overturned retroactively. He certainly wouldn’t have wanted to make an honest mistake.
So, they decided to go ahead and come up with the screwy and dangerous unitary executive theory and ignore the law. We really do need to find some way to banish them all.
rwcole @ 180
This reminds me of my ex, only in reverse. His dad would take him and his brother and sister out for pizza. Well, he didn’t like the looks of pizza so he passed many times. Then one day he tried the thing and thought it tasted pretty good. Then he got mad because of all the times he missed out! Concept of pizza not the same as real pizza. I’m sure there are other applications.
jonerik @ 197
Yep, yep and yep
Bustednuckles @ 200
Happy Thanksgiving Busted, we have much to be grateful for
Nice little island with nice facilities…
Alcatraz?
LHP — That sounds like a ton of fun
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Keith’s going to have Joe Wilson on tonight!
looseheadprop @ 205
Only two Senators read the Patriot Act before voting on it, Wellstone(RIP) and Feingold, and both voted nay!
SnarKassandra @ 208
I’m still puzzling out this “overnight cooking” thing. What temperature? How do you wrap them up? Stuffed or unstuffed?
Amb. Joe Wilson on KO wrt to Scottie’s confession. Woohah!
SnarKassandra @ 208
It is. We have one of those big noisy families where everyone is welcome. I am so lucky that way.
Sweetie, you have a great day tomorrow.
One of the things I’m thankful for this year, is you
Loo Hoo. @ 210
And he said Senator Dodd calls for Mukasey to investigate Plames outing.
Go Joe Wilson!!! Go Valerie Wilson!!
Synoia @ 207
The Neocon Inn
((((LHP))))
LHP,
http://west.thomson.com/store/…..d=40420190
“Provides step-by-step guidance for companies regarding civil and criminal liability for actions involving electronic surveillance.”
Any guidance for “telecoms” overlooked?
McClellan is trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, says KO.
Joe shaved his beard.
Joe says Bush and Cheney should release transcripts of their testimony with Fitz.
Loo Hoo. @ 220
It certainly seems that either McClellan is jerking everyone around, trying to sell books…or he really is telling the truth but NOW, he’s been told he’s been naughty and has to recant…
Toby Wollin @ 212
200 degrees F. There is a whole unpeeled onion and a bunch of peeled galric cloves instide. Lots of bay leave, etc (name the herb, I probably use it)
There is water in the bottom of the pan and heavy duty tin foil sealing the top. So it will sort of steam a bit overnight. In the morning, I check the internal temp with a thermometer, take off the foil and raise the oven temp to crisp the skin. you end up with moist, falling off the bone meat, without having to baste. The drippings are intensely fllavorful and you don’t have to get up at 5 AM to put the damn thing in the oven.
Lazyman’s turkey. I often slow cook roast beef or chicken by putting it in rigt after breakfast and just forgetting about all day.
It’s so much more tender and itnesely flavored that way.
Loo Hoo. @ 221
Joe Wilson is hot.
Eureka Springs @ 215
Probable cause Mr Conyers? What is the status of Kucinich’s motion sent to the house judiciary committee??
Thanksgiving tasks are being to call me, too, folks, even though I’m having a quite small dinner with my not-exactly-ex (he works nights, and his family has dinner while he sleeps. It’s also a good excuse for him to avoid the craziness that his family holidays have become.)
I love “talking” to y’all. Helps keep me sane.
Everybody who’s travelling, I wish you a safe trip, and a good time upon arriving. And a pleasant and happy, bushco-free holiday for everyone.
Here’s an example I always use when trying to explain to someone why we can’t trust Bush’s government (or any US White House!) to correctly interpret our calls:
What if we say while on the phone, “Honey, I’m going to pick up the yellow cake at the bakery for the party on Saturday”? Sounds innocent, but the paranoid assholes working for the Bush Regime might think:
“yellowcake” is yellowcake uranium
“party on Saturday” could be interpreted as “the day the bomb goes off”…kind of like how the Mob will say “wedding” when meaning “Mob hit”.
See? We can’t trust any of them to decipher our intentions. If they misinterpret we could end up being rendered to a far off land never to be seen again. ;-)
Toby Wollin @ 223
The latter… IMHO…
Joe thinks that what McClellan has said smacks of high crimes and misdemeanors. House and senate should become involved.
James Joyce @ 219
You mean in Kris’s book? It’s very complete
oops, that was “task are “beginning” to call me.”" lots of oopses today.
looseheadprop @ 224
Scribbling this hurridly down. Will totally change meat cooking at our house.
Loo Hoo. @ 222
That’s what I want in my X-mas stocking !
Kay, zucchini seems to emote a response from Uncle Sam…
SnarKassandra @ 168
PEEkan is what went under your Granny’s bed at night. PEH-kahn is the way the dictionary says to pronounce it.
Jane has a new thread upstairs!
New Joke post upstairs.
looseheadprop @ 234
each to her own
looseheadprop @ 231
yes, could you give an example of guidance offered, but overlooked or ignored?
The newest FISA amendments are an effort to put the burden of oversight on the courts as protection to wrongdoers from the gov’t side.
You must now prove to thresholds of being beyond reasonable doubt that something is wrong to undertake oversight via judicial review.
It’s insulation for the Bushco. types, not oversight.
You will have to challenge a judge in court to make them apply oversight to Bushco. We’re supposed to call that a victory?
looseheadprop @ 234
Me too!
Turley says Fitz was no junkyard dog…
It occurs to me that what BushCo does is never about what BushCo says it is about. So that raises the question: What is FISA about? My latest guess is that it is another wedge issue to fragment the Dems and alienate the progressive side of the party.
don’t forget the aq cell in the whitehouse.
peas!
CTuttle @ 235
LOL Why does that not surprise me… ;-)
I can’t really see how anyone could advertise they are witholding information specific information regarding criminality in the highest offices in the land pending publication of their book. So I think it’s really teaser hype. But I don’t mind the whole issue being reviewed as loudly and publicly as possible.
marymccurnin @ 35
Dead Man walkin’
marymccurnin @ 46
By definition there is really no choice. Consider the religious aspect too. To be a Monarch is, like being Pope, to be God’s voice and prelate for that country’s people. It automatically means God doesn’t believe you are fit to run your own life or to be the receiver of his Word. It’s demeaning to any post-Luther Christian.
Funny how the Conservative Bush Republicans say they’re religious, but would attempt to foist this petty little man on us as some kind of Voice of God here to enslave us all. It would be a strange (perhaps bushy) family that would have Traditional Family Values of that kind.
Hugh @ 90
Hey, I like her. She’s spunky, pretty, smiles a lot and laughs while she’s talking. And really, from t.v., what else can you expect?
Best of all is the shows where everybody looks very serious and speaks in evenly moderated voices. It makes me feel like the world is in the hands of smart people. ‘Course, i don’t pay any attention to what they’re actually saying. I don’t want to be disappointed.
For real news I read blogs. At least that way I know the information gets checked and peer reviewed — not like in MSM opinion pieces.
tejanarusa @ 131
I listened a bit to KKKarl on the Charlie Rose interview show this evening and I felt the same way. They talked about the political scenery as though nothing really unusual was happening. No talk about ripping up or spitting on the Constitution, torture, habeas corpus, rendition, political prosecutions, election fraud or the like.
I turned it off since I usually watch that show for a bit of reality, not fantasy.