Last Sunday, I was chopping up carrots for dinner when my husband called to me from the living room where he was watching a talking head on the CBS evening news. “This guy says we’re going to have to invade Pakistan to secure their nukes!” he said, obviously concerned. As well he should be.
The talking head’s name was Michael O’Hanlon. He had just written an op/ed piece with Fred Kagan along these lines that had run that very day in the New York Times. I had just read this about him and his let’s-invade-Pakistan fetish over at Matthew Yglesias’ shop (h/t to Atrios):
Can you imagine a responsible member of the Pakistani military inviting a large foreign military presence into the country as a prophylactic measure against a government collapse that hasn’t actually happened? Can you imagine what the popular response to that would be? People already seem tired of living under a military dictatorship over there — transforming it into a military dictatorship that involved tons of foreign troops seems very unlikely to shift that calculus.
Um, yeah. But here’s the problem:
A few hundreds of thousands of people read Eschaton regularly. Maybe a few tens of thousands read Yglesias.
Tens of millions of people watch the CBS (and NBC, and ABC) evening news every day. Most of those people have probably never heard of Eschaton or Yglesias.
This made me think of another point:
The same people who just keep returning to various old rehashed stodge on the Bill and Hillary Clinton marriage don’t have a similar fascination with the marital history of Rudy Giuliani, even though he’s currently considered the front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination. And it’s not just FDL saying this: Frank Rich at the NYT discusses this, too.
Yet not even Frank Rich appears on TV or even radio every day, telling us these things, and certainly nobody from FDL has been invited to do so — not every day, anyway. (Hell, when somebody like Markos Moulitsas Zuniga gets so much as a once-a-week gig with Newsweek, that’s cause for celebration in the reality-based part of the blogosphere.)
Instead, most Americans, who get most of their news from TV and radio, are much more likely to hear from someone who is — you guessed it — rehashing old Bill-and-Hillary stodge.
The guardians of the media discourse that most Americans are likeliest to encounter have been controlling this consensus reality for so long, and so utterly, especially in DC, that even the people who should know better — namely, Democratic presidential candidates — fall for their schtick and react just as the Republicans, who guard the guardians (and have for decades) want them to react.
There’s a big fat barrier between what Big Media says is reality and what really is reality. Bear this all in mind when you wonder why things that to you are as obvious as paint aren’t all that obvious to most other folk, even to some really smart folk you may know.
(Picture edited from this original taken by Xerones and posted under a Creative Commons license.)
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2
zed
Steve-AR @ 1
Confident, eh? ;-)
What we need to do is develop a sane foreign policy.
TexBetsy @ 4
but first we have to have some sane officials and sane goverment.
CTuttle @ 3
Having a psychopath as the President has dampened my confidence.
Talk about crimes against nature.
I am sick to death of Bush, Rove, Cheney and GOP tyranny and terror.
NEW YORK – The U.S. military plans to seek a criminal case in an Iraqi court against an award-winning Associated Press photographer but is refusing to disclose what evidence or accusations would be presented.
An AP attorney on Monday strongly protested the decision, calling the U.S. military plans a “sham of due process.” The journalist, Bilal Hussein, has already been imprisoned without charges for more than 19 months.
TexBetsy @ 4
That would require sane individuals in the Executive…
O’Hanlon’s latest take is that “the improved situation” in Iraq is going to save the Bush legacy.yeh right.
Bush and his crew should be arrested, jailed, and tried for their crimes against humanity. And if convicted, sentenced to the same action as was Saddam.
via Kevin Drum:
And impeachment remains “off the table”. I am seething.
Did you guys see the last comment on the last thread? Is that really Jane?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
gotta disagree with you here. i’m for fair trials and against the death penalty. *g*
Do you realize that most of the world, and over half the people of this country despise George W. Bush and what he stands for?
Loo Hoo. @ 14
?? It’s odd, I missed the context.
Loo Hoo. @ 14
indeed, rather oblique.
Loo Hoo. @ 14
I saw that comment too and I went back to reread it.
punaise @ 12
Those were great. I really liked the Apple ones.
It’s just sour grapes…they haven’t convinced everyone to attack Iran, so they have to find a way to attack Iran, and then they will blame Iran for supplying nukes to Pakistan…oh, yeah…we supplied Pakistan with the nukes…but…oh, nevermind that…move along…it’s Iran’s fault, and Clinton made Iran do it.
Nevermind that the ISI of Pakistan supported the Taliban, who…oh, yeah…weren’t they the ones who attacked us?…oh, yeah, I forgot…it was Saddam and his Al Qaeda Aye-Rackies that flew those planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and the PA field…
Oh, yeah…now I remember. Isn’t Afghanistan where those long-haired dogs come from? Oh, yeah, and heroins. I don’t know why they have to have so many female heroins…I know they hate women over there, but why make them heroins? I just don’t get it, but I guess W and Dick do.
Invading Pakistan to ’secure’ their nuclear arms will be a cakewalk.
Rudy is most definitely damaged goods. Will he maintain his first place position? Depends on the MSM. So far, the MSM is beating back all Rudy controversy as it plays up Bill and Hillary’s alleged negatives. Worse, the MSM is preselecting Hillary and Obama as the Democratic winners as it downplays the viability of the other Democratic candidates.
punaise @ 18
response to NorskeFlamethrower @ 79 ?
Brothers Kagan and O’Hanlon were wrong during the run-up to Iraq, why would they blemish their perfectly abysmal track records now?
selise @ 15
I’m for fair trials. Make no mistake. Generally speaking I am not a promoter of the death penalty. But I want the punishment to fit the crime, in this instance. Very much so.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
with flowers. don’t forget the flowers.
Pakistan wouldn’t even be an issue if Kuchinich wasn’t stirring up the hornet’s nest with this ‘dept. of peace’ nonsense.
The media are the chokepoint of democracy.
The totally orchestrated it’s a Hillary-Obama horserace…what other candidates?–coupled with the St. Rudy of 9-11 crapola–just affirm that to me. Case in point tonight’s Hardball. You’d think there were no other candidates at all. Much less issues or policy positions.
Tweety…you’re a goon.
CTuttle @ 25
Fred Kagan is a Karl Rove look-alike. He aspires to be Karl.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
And greeted as liberators!! D’oh…
with flowers. don’t forget the flowers.
filling arms like buckets!
hackworth @ 23
Suddenly, no more Edwards. None. Nada. Kaput. And who was that Dodd person again? What about the short dude? And the long winded guy with the hair plugs. Wasn’t there a govenator running, too?
the whole pakistan situation is a huge problem. what a mess.
Pakistan and Iran. Wonder what will be the outcome?
war money says ‘hey hillary’s okay with us. and the kenyan too. we like him enough.’
sideline edwards though.
and kuchinich? dont even think about it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
It will be the reverse of whatever it should be.
Rudy has the potential to be as dangerous as a nuclear bomb.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
Let the Bush family lead the way!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 36
I just hate it that they get to decide instead of us.
marymccurnin @ 37
Not much ‘wiggle-room’, is there.
Things “as obvious as paint” to the clued-in blogosphere aren’t even obvious to those who you’d think might know better. I will never forget the incredulousness we encountered eighteen months ago from Feinstein’s San Francisco staffer about our concerns that Bush would bomb or invade Iran: “Well, you don’t think that would really happen, do you? I’m sure Senator Feinstein doesn’t think that would happen. Really, that’s highly unlikely. Do you really think President Bush would do that?”
All, of course, in a tone of knowing oh-so-much-more than us concerned but simple citizens. And all, of course, in the face of evidence to the contrary: fleet movements, actual statements by The Regime identical to pre-Iraq War statements, neocon “think tank” pronouncements. In April 2006!
My advice: even when speaking with those who oughta know better: speak s*l*o*w*l*y and use low-syllable count words and non-compound sentences. Repeat your thesis and proofs often. Request assent and clarification: “Are you following me?”
And hope for the best!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
We will be greeted with flowers and candy! Only fifty thousand troops will be needed! They’ll all be home in six months!
hackworth @ 23
Dan Abrams had the NYC firefighter spokeman who is still in the dept (some kind of officer) on tonight. The story he tells blaming Rudy for things that went wrong on 9/11* is very powerful and he’s very credible. Asked whether they would do to get out their story, he said they were considering their options. This is important. t will be very hard to discredit these guys, though, or course, the wingnuts will try.
*Not only put the command center in WT*C7 (iir the correct bldg #), which probably cost half the firefighters lives, but also surrounded himself with unqualified people-apparently promoted ordinary police & firefighters to highest levels.
Thanks PW
I Digg it
(heh heh:)
Gawd it pains me to say this. But perhaps it’s time we had a lawyer for our next president. And I don’t mean Rudy.
TeddySanFran @ 42
Teddy,
Do you have any news about Doolittle?
TeddySanFran @ 42
A-yep. That goes for most journalists, too.
One of the reasons that Joe Conason has managed to do as well as he has is that he was one of the first journalists of the internet era to take advantage of the hordes of people literally begging him to be his unpaid research workers. When other, snootier journos would tell us to go away, he worked with us and encouraged us to get out there and do more.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Hopefully the Bushies will get raptured and leave us alone…here in heaven. /s
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Why would our next president need a lawyer?
Steve-AR @ 17
marymccurnin @ 49
Edwards.
If we do anything to Pakistan or Iran, Israel will become involved. And it will spread from there.
LS @ 51
That’s the sticker I have on my car.
marymccurnin @ 49
:-) :-) Ha :-) :-)
Well, if you don’t like the “let’s protect the nukes” reason to invade Pakistan, how do you feel about the “let’s arm tribesmen in the tribal areas and train them to fight the Taliban” rationale?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..mp;ei=5087
Digby lays it all out:
Mission Accomplished
by digby
Man, Novak is certainly getting his revenge — and probably a big check — for throwing that little unsourced pile of used kitty litter into the Democratic primary. Congratulations, Bob, for a job well done.
It just doesn’t get any better for the Village Ladies press Club and Circle Jerk Society than this afternoon’s Hardball. David Shuster ran down the story straight, pointing out that Novak has subsequently said that he allegedly heard his little nugget of defamation about both Clinton and Obama from some Democrat who isn’t part of the Clinton campaign, but who knows someone or has heard from somebody who says it’s true. That’s apparently good enough for Chris Matthews anyway, and he’s running with it as fast as his little legs can carry him.
This is what ensued:
(snip)
link
“Well I’ve never been to Heaven… but I’ve been to Oklahoma…”
marymccurnin @ 49
That’s funny. And I like it. ;0)
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
Maybe incidentally shore up the government? Or take it down?
LS @ 48
There is a Bush wing in Hell.
Phoenix Woman @ 57
Gawd… you guys are keeping me laughing. I love it!
Maybe incidentally shore up the government? Or take it down?
you’re right could be either or.
who knows?
remember when nixon bombed cambodia he provoked tens of thousands to join the khmer rouge.
id imagine the laws of unforeseen consequences would kick in big time in the ‘invasion of pak.’ scenario.
and i bet there’s some bearded guy hiding in a cave who would just luvvv it
And remember this: If any of you ever plan to travel to Oklahoma you will need shots and a passport. ;0)
marymccurnin @ 53
I hope the Edwards team can get a better game plan working..the new polls seem to show decreasing support and Edwards support going to Obama. Of course that may not be the reality but only what the MSM is feeding us.
Phoenix Woman @ 43
Sadly, no ‘PALS’ for Pakistan…
The American program was created after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the Bush administration debated whether to share with Pakistan one of the crown jewels of American nuclear protection technology, known as “permissive action links,” or PALS, a system used to keep a weapon from detonating without proper codes and authorizations.
In the end, despite past federal aid to France and Russia on delicate points of nuclear security, the administration decided that it could not share the system with the Pakistanis because of legal restrictions.
-snip-
While many nuclear experts in the federal government favored offering the PALS system because they considered Pakistan’s arsenal among the world’s most vulnerable to terrorist groups, some administration officials feared that sharing the technology would teach Pakistan too much about American weaponry. The same concern kept the Clinton administration from sharing the technology with China in the early 1990s.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com…..ks#comment
masaccio @ 55
Well, it worked at Tora Bora, didn’t it?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
yellow cakewalk
marymccurnin @ 53
I think he’s the only one that is facing reality enough to know what the bottomline on life is. I’m sure he has the strong resolve to do the right thing for the country.
We’ve gotta get outta this place…and we will.
yellow cakewalk
!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 69
Requires a wide Pakistance.
Big media definitely lies. And in so many different ways. The big secret now is how dreadfully dismal the economy has really become. But big media needs to keep up the pretense long enough for its corporate masters to make off with their ill gotten gains before the election. It seems that a real economic crisis may be the only thing that will shake a complacent public out of its lethargy. So I suppose we can only hope that what has become inevitable happens sooner, rather than later.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Will I need to present, “your papers please” to visit you in OK???? (Don’t worry, I’m not really coming, so you don’t need to clean your house..and certainly not for me!!) *G*
Eureka Springs @ 70
Zingo!!
Completely OT, but what the hell:
Roll Call, via TPM:
Capitol Police Officer Suspended in Connection With Senate Bathroom Fires
I guess he was trying to smoke out certain minority leaders.
LS @ 73
Tee-hee. ;0)
allan_in_upstate @ 74
Was he smokin’ in the boy’s room? Or, the girl’s room?
allan_in_upstate @ 75
What do you have to do to get fired? Catch a repug giving a bj to an independent”
Steve-AR @ 64
eCAHNomics @ 44
There’s a good story, too, on the radios Rudy bought for the fire department that didn’t work. The police had good radios and the firemen had the bad radios Rudy bought. There was huge discrepancy in the price. The radios were motorola and allegedy, the japanese radios were better. There was a poor signal at the WTC site and everyone knew it – including Rudy. There have been few reports on this – but the NYC firemen are super pissed about this issue.
Speaking of the media, Ailes is lecturing at West Point.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..est-point/
the 2 reasons I can think of for why we won’t take military action in Pakistan are:
1) they have no oil.
2) they have nukes
after all, aren’t we getting a box of mangos in exchange for nuclear technology?
uh-huh.
selise @ 15
I’m against the death penalty as well, and then there’s no escaping the Law of Karma.
***
OT: New Washington Post/ABC poll shows Obama takes the lead in Iowa: Obama/30, Clinton/26, Edwards/22.
The economy is about to tank. Opec will probably be forced to denominate oil in euros or some of the countries will. With the tumbling dollar they are not making up for it with the rising oil prices. We’re taking a hit inside fortress America, but the sellers are taking a bath on the diminishing dollar.
Once the dollar gets seriously abandoned, our economy will completely tank. OUCH and then the poeple will walk up from the game boys, text messaging, iphones and ipods, and tear themselves away from the home theatre bought on credit which they hauled in the SUVs to the McMansion which they have no money down on a a mountain of debt and look up and see:
The sky is falling.
Trickle down economics done it. Free market capitalism but them… And the CEOs are laughing away up in the sky in the G5s.
It’s gonna get ugly when the sky falls and the fundies rise up naked.
hahaha.
The sky is falling
hackworth@80
Yes, there are plenty of stories that could crucify Rudy & we know them all. The point of the post, however, is that the rest of the country doesn’t. That’s why the NYC firefighters’ actions are important. It’ll be hard for the MSM to ignore them.
marymccurnin says
yellow cakewalk
that’s just a classic. :-)
Now where DID I leave that umbrella?
OldCoastie @ 82
Heroin routes?
Just for you Phoenix Person:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9uxlWQp9qA
CTuttle @ 65
But, Ctuttle, doesn’t that make sense? Wouldn’t it make sense that there needed to be a certain code for the nuclear arms to detonate? DID CHENEY/BUSH DO SOMETHING RIGHT? Is it possible that we have the key to the code?
Eureka Springs says
yellow cakewalk
Requires a wide Pakistance.
:-)!!!(-:
Eureka Springs @ 70
I’m not sure I understand the petro dollar vs the petro euro, but I’m thinking it is a kind of “gold standard” and gives the dollar some stability under normal circumstances…
it does occur to me that Saddam was crowing about using euro after the sanctions that lifted and we attacked…
the next to make statements about using the euro was Chavez and suddenly we started to demonize him.
I figure it must be pretty important this petro dollar thing.
OldCoastie @ 82
Noam Chomsky maintains that the US never attacks a nation that can effectively defend itself. There is historical evidence to support Chomsky’s hypothesis. Read Hegemony or Survival.
selise @ 27
This sarcasm is negative and *unpatriotic*. What could possibly go wrong?
Rudi needs to have huge demos at his stump speeches which just might get some bobblehead to report on it.
He’s so tainted with shit, it’s amazing he thinks he can walk right through it.
He would be fun as candidate for the repukes.
Bush was evil and dumb, but rudi is mean and evil. Both are completely self absorbed.
allan_in_upstate @ 74
She.
I was really really hoping that Michael O’Hanlon’s striking resemblance to Lyle Lovett would confuse wingnuttia and they would ignore the idiot WATB.
There goes another perfectly good fantasy.
Is that related to PayPal? I keep getting spam email from them.
eCAHNomics @ 99
what’s the code kenneth?
eCAHNomics @ 85
Right On Brother, I’m with you. I hope the firefighters’ truth will get out there.
hey don’t laugh…these twits just might try it along with Iran and I have a sneaky feeling Chavez should look over his shoulder,cause Venezuela’s got oil too.How can a reasonable mind think this kind of crap up?…oh….nevemind….
Loo Hoo. @ 89
If Pals had been shared, it would have disabled the Nukes in the advent of a Musharraf assassination or coup to over throw him… 8-(
SanderO @ 84
Opec is not going to increase production, but I haven’t seen yet if it is switching to Euros. If they do, we’re screwed.
Oil is the main thing that almost all nations trade for and to buy it they must accumulated the currency which it is traded in. So today it is the dollar. If France wants to buy oil they must use dollars. To get dollars they have to sell stuff and be paid in dollars.
This is how the US is able to get its products, services and dollars around.
If oil went off the dollar, then countries buying oil would purchase EU products to get Euros and the dollar would be worthless. WE WOULD NEED a bazillion euros to buy oil and so we would be trying to sell out crap to the EU and they don’t want our crap so we are SOL.
If oil goes to the Euro… the fat lady sings.
SanderO @ 105
thanks, SanderO – helps (I think)
eCAHNomics @ 88
And natural gas pipelines from north of Pakistan, south through Pakistan to the Arabian Sea.
SanderO @ 105
Jeebus on a stick.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 91
Pachydermist
Pakistance
It’s certain to be
the hottest new dance!
It’s awesome.
stupendous!
It’s Elephant Shock!
They’re going to do
the Yellow Cakewalk!
SanderO @ 96
You are firing on all cylinders, bro. You are a kick-ass dude!
(OldCoastie: I was approached by a man with an Eminent Domain petition outside Gelsons in Silverlake (L.A. neighborhood) yesterday. I asked if there were any other petitions. He quickly said no, just one, he didn’t have any others hiding. By his reaction word has definitely spread about the bait and switch.)
Product can not be increased. We have reached peak oil and they can’t get more oil out. This means as demand rises… and it is thanks to China for example and little India… the price will be bid up.
But for the sellers if the dollar is losing value, it like growing more crops and selling it for less. Where’s that at?
They’ll be heading over to the Euro in the next 18 months and the wheels come of the wagon called America.
Thanks Ronnie, GHWB and GWB and all the supply siders. Clinton did us no favor with nafta either.
Palistan’s nukes are certainly a cause for concern. Too bad that no one can trust the judgement or veracity of our govt. They’re liars.
marymccurnin @ 108
Plus, Britany Spears has gone to seed. We are really screwed.
If Rudy is elected it will be with a mandate to invade anyone he feels inclined to- torture whoever he is inclined to- imprison whomever he is inclined to.
Let’s hope it doesn’t happen.
rwcole @ 112
That is it in a nutshell.
OT- Good News: Lowell re-signed with the BoSox…
Bad News: ARod AL MVP and Mariano re-signed with the Evil Empire…
SanderO @ 105
Right now for the Saudi’s and the Chinese, they are in a “MAD” situation with the
Dollar. That is probably why the Saudi’ vetoed the talk about the weak dollar at OPEC. If they undermine confidence in the dollar they are screwing themselves. Of course if the dollar continues to tank then they and the Chinese will just suck it up and take losses to get rid of a worthless currency.
The US moving in to Pakistan would be a real coup for the Neocons. They would quiet the loose cannon that is the islamic nule for a while. The they would control the pipe lines to the gas up north and have deep water ports to service afghanistan. And why give all that baksheesh to pakistan when we can give it to halliburton, blackwater et all to run pakistan?
Iran will be quite encircled and once they take her, it’s on to saudi arabia.. or will that be the friendly oil nation?
Look for a puppet in Pakistan. India will go along with it and may get Kashmir for their silence, for a while at least.
Steve-AR @ 118
So do all the pricks that got no bid contracts and were paid in dollars get screwed like the citizens do?
I have read that the dollar standard for oil keeps the dollars well above the market rate it would otherwise command- so the real exchange rate with the euro for example may be much worse than the current trade suggests.
SanderO @ 112
The Iraq War contributed to keeping the world on the dollar. It was, in part, a desperate attempt to keep the world on the dollar. Can they do it? There seems to be little hope. They sure as hell got Canada to ratchet the Loonie back down. How’d they do that. I don’t believe the story. Canada has got lots of resources. The US is bankrupting itself. The Canadian dollar took off and the Illuminati backed it down.
rosalind @ 111
rosalind – there is a legit group collecting for emminent domain out there. Did you see a giant rubber band on the clipboard? that seems to be the feature that the fraudsters are using.
The other difference I noticed is that the eminent domain people typically have had a table and are adults – not college kids…
but the rubber band clipboard is the bad guys – they others actually make a very solid effort to explain their prop, the kids? not so much.
There is massive disagreement as to whether we have already reached peak oil- or whether that is still in the not too distant future- could be 10 year difference in when the crunch begins- but it’s soon in any event.
China won’t be taking too many dollars if they can’t unload them. They are deep into Africa with development and soon will be ahead of big oil with access, because they turned their oddles of dollars into huge development projects in Africa… mega bribes.. airports, highways, power plants and so forth… all for access to their oil. Africa has oil.
Notice the US is already setting up a military command for Africa? We gonna do to Africa what we did to the ME. Take the oil and screw the people.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
He was kidding about the passport.
How many times am i going to here that every intelligence agency in the world thought that iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the war started. (reality) The UN has three hundred inspectors criss crossing Iraq reporting back that all of our intelligence was “garbage” so says Hans Blix and Scot Ritter. This myth is repeated without challenge everyday even though it is crap. I want just one commentator to say ” that is complete busllshit, the next time the myth of complete agreement about WMD is repeated again. We have found out all of our good intelligence came from some idiot in germany named curveball. most o this wouldn’t have seemed credible if the narrative was written as fiction!!!
trouble’s not in getting IN to Oklahoma- it’s in getting OUT.
I would be reading this web site about oil
http://www.theoildrum.com/
rwcole @ 124
Production has plateaued. Demand is increasing. Unless a significant increase in production occurs, we are, for all practical purposes, at the peak now.
Is it possible that we can create our own economy in the US if the dollar fails? No outsourcing. Make most of what we need. Grow our own food. It would take monumental effort. Or am I being naive?
Or even if the dollar doesn’t fail.hackworth @ 130
This is a good thing for the environment.
The biggest problem in surmounting The Barrier is to realize that it’s mostly smoke and mirrors.
It’s really a house of cards built on a shifting sand dune and when it falls apart, we’ll be in free fall until it totally collapses.
Some of us will land on both feet, however.
Others won’t.
In any case, it will mean the final and irrevocable end of the American Empire.
hackworth @ 121
While the high Canadian dollar is making us feel extremely smug, there are some problems for us as well – makes our exports expensive and is already becoming a problem for the manufacturing sector.
rwcole @ 124
Peak oil is a myth perpetrated by the oli cos. to keep the price high. They started the story in the 1950s iirc. See Palast Armed Madhouse.
I think it is a very nice touch that Thomas Kean of 9/11 note is not endorsing Rudy.
What is it about marriage. Elizabeth Edwards was on tnight to rebut the claim that she is so sick that John could not complete the campaign. She looks fine. I could not give a rat’s ass about Rudy’s marriage. Lady Bird was a bright, competent woman, but I do not think any one voted for or against her. What gives?
It’s believed that we at 85 million barrels and that 100 million is the limit that can be extracted with the rigs in place. We’re basically there now… or in a few years. It’s madness after that.
The sky is falling.
Rob @ 127
speaking of Curveball
CSPANs Q & A
Los Angeles Times national security and intelligence reporter Bob Drogin talks about his new book, “Curveball: Spies, Lies, And The Con Man Who Caused A War,” on how U.S. intelligence agencies used information from an Iraqi defector to assist the White House in making their case for war against Iraq.
Lahoma sometimes likes to PR me and make me feel real tall and like a warrior. She wants me to tell her if we should be more worried about global warming or WW III.
Why does anyone even talk about military action against Pakistan? We are going to invade a country of 165 million people (more than Russia) and 1 million people under arms? And, oh by the way, they have modern weapons and nukes. GMAFB.
rwcole @ 124
check out
http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/
for some pungent Peak Oil writing.
the good news – the resource-stupid, despoilatory Suburban buildout is over! McMansion terraces in the pipeline may be the last ever built, yay!
Mary,
In fact that would be a sound economic policy to have a sustainable economy which relies little in imports or exports. Isolationist anyone?
eCAHNomics @ 134
so you think there’s more oil to be found?
yellowdogD @ 126
Busted. ;0)
yellowdogD @ 126
Was he? If the Thugs keep control of the Govt, how long before we will need internal travel documents? Can’t have terrists just able to move around the Homeland, can we.
SanderO @ 125
China is doing oil deals in Venezuela and Canada. China is doing lots of deals as the US flounders in Iraq. (Personally, I believe that massive quantities of oil are being extracted from Iraq – essentially stolen by Bush/Cheneyco – and are being stored in a friendly location.)
Rob @ 127
I think the problem is that it has been repeated by many of our high ranking Senators and Congressmen, including Dems. I believe I’ve heard Hillary use it as part of her rationalization for her AUMF vote.
Peak oil is not a myth. The debate is when we reach it.. the point where demand outstrips our ability to get it out of the ground.
The easy oil has already been taken out. Now the expensive oil is all there is left… and they are looking like crazy for new fields… and not finding them… at least of the size that’s needed.
Demand is predictable and is rising as population and industrialization increases.
Peak oil is no myth… It’s only a matter of when… and it seems to be coming right about now…
Elliott @ 142
Possibly, that’s why US, Canada and Russia are trying to stake claims in the Arctic. All that ice free sea, you know.
There is enormous oil theft right from pipelines.. they tap them and divert some of the flow… and put in on the black market. It’s done in Africa and who knows where else.
Steve-AR @ 139
If you think the neocons don’t have it in mind, you are mistaken. PNAC and Brezinsky writings, among others, point to such goals.
What is to stop our government from using the nuclear threat to blackmail the rest of the world into supporting our economy?
Does the corporate structure loose value if the dollar fails?
Staking claims is well and good if there is oil here. That remains to be seen and it is unlikely up in the arctic.
When it comes to the War in Iraq, the U.S. should…
Date:
Withdraw
Home in yr.
Stay
Nov 8
26%
35%
33%
Oct 31
26%
33%
35%
Oct 24
25%
32%
37%
Oct 17
28%
35%
32%
Oct 10
28%
36%
31%
Oct 4
28%
36%
34%
Sep 25
25%
37%
32%
Sep 19
26%
33%
36%
Sep 14
20%
38%
38%
Sep 7
24%
35%
35%
Aug 22
hackworth @ 145
Unlikely, unless they have upgrade the oil infrastructure without anyone knowing about it. IIRC, the idea of Iraq paying for it’s own occupation with oil was short lived because the infrastructure was on it’s last legs when we got there.
Mary,
We already blackmail and threaten other countries into being econmic lackeys.
Read John Perkins: Confessions of an economic hitman. He lays it out well. It’s what the CIA does…
SanderO @ 147
A Canadian company had great hope last year to find oil off the coast of Nicaragua. After a few hopeful spurts it was a bust.
hackworth @ 144
Pretty hard to imagine the logistics of this – that is quite the storage capacity you are talking about there.
Oy vey, and I thought an inside job of 9/11 was a big deal…all the other stuff is just the tip of the oilberg. snark on – snark off – snark on – snark off….just kidding…yeeeeeah….ooookay…
Waving!!! Hiya NSA…can I join up, it is possibly the safest place to work..really…I’m for the Homeland…but you already know that. Hi!!! I’m a good Homelandian. Honestly!!
Fern @ 156
I just cleaned out the bottom of the hallway closet. We have plenty of space. Very friendly.
OldCoastie @ 82
Is it really so very very difficult to distinguish between a democracy and a dictatorship? Talk of American hubris – if it permeates this site, its the pits.
Eureka Springs @ 150
I am sure they have it on their minds. They are talking about it openly. It’s just insane. With Iraq, we invaded a country that couldn’t fight back…Pakistan has very sharp teeth.
Actually you could dump oil into old fields. Right now when they need to get oil out they pump water in. Why not hide stolen oil in them?
John Grisham… a new thriller
marymccurnin @ 151
1. Nothing.
2. Yes.
JMHO that is…waving to NSA!!!
bhatten @ 135
I also sometimes wonder if anyone ever thinks about Bill Clinton’s bypass operation, or the fact that he may well have some physical problems now that he didn’t have before, like high blood pressure? Medication for that can take its toll on men, from what I’ve heard. It seems that the next wave of trash talk we’re gonna be hearing is talk of Bill’s sex life since the WH. Or maybe Hillary’s, who knows.
TexBetsy @ 159
Okay, so no problem then!
They don’t need to win.. they only need lots of chaos to cripple a country and make it ripe for the raping.
So the ongoing saga of Bill’s dick continues? What’s it eaten lately?
Ann in AZ @ 164
What are you saying? He’s been fixed??…
Ann in AZ @ 164
Boring!
As we get closer to the holidays, Lahoma and I would ask ya’ll to please be extra careful during the coming week. We want you all back safe and cozy.
Happy Thanksgiving and merry Christmas. Good night.
from lahoma and me
Elliott @137
speaking of Curveball
CSPANs Q & A
Los Angeles Times national security and intelligence reporter Bob Drogin talks about his new book, “Curveball: Spies, Lies, And The Con Man Who Caused A War,” on how U.S. intelligence agencies used information from an Iraqi defector to assist the White House in making their case for war against Iraq.
————-
Sounds like an interesting candidate for book salon.
LS @ 168
no, he can take over bob Dole’s old job as a shill for “ED”
SanderO @ 152
The powers that be intend to run on oil until the last drop of it is burned. They intend to pursue global warming to its full fruition as soon as possible for the sake of profit.
Iraq has little or no refinery capabilities.. So where is the free Iraqi oil being refined and sold back to our Mid East defense operations, under the table of course.. I think this would be among the largest free/stolen oil to cash customers situations on earth right now.
Good night Okla and Lahoma.
rwcole @ 167
So, who is going to get the commission for the sculpture? Oh yeah…they already did one…it is called the Washington Monument. Foreknowledge.
TO; LS….Whoopee…laugh out loud. I ain’t going there, but blood pressure meds have lots of side effects. Not boring. Just an aside.
Ann in AZ @ 164
Ed Klein’s book is getting some exposure again. And Obama is using the Jeff Gerth stuff. And Hillary the lesbian is getting a boost again. blah..blah
Elliott @ 142
Same ref, i.e. Palast. Sunni triangle in Iraq has possibly more oil than Arabia. It’s been redlined against exploration since the Brits came in the 1920s. Venzuela has gigantic gobs of oil that is only profitable above some number (like $50). I forget the details, but maybe its heavy or sour. Then there’s the Stans. Transportaion has been the problem there, but at $100, all these sources are profitable. That’s the only 3 I can remember, but they’d double or triple known reseres.
Then there’s the history of the oil reserve statistic. The more we extract the higher the reserve # has gone.
In the first oil crisis (1973), a Prof. Altman of MIT said te world is floating on a sea of oil. Stick a straw in the ground anywhere & you’ll strike it. So far he’s been right.
absolutely Hackworth @ 172. The less there is the more it’s worth. Billion to be made before the shit hits the fan for the shareholders.
The oil companies are going to be fine. It’s the coal companies who are pimpin for Washington cash and support. There’s a lot of coal in this country- and as we run low on oil- it’s the next white meat.
Elliott @ 172
If you have an erection that lasts longer than four hours call Monica Le…….
But 100 today is what 50 was 10 years ago!
They ain’t going after it if the dollar keeps tanking.
SanderO @ 166
that seems to be the preferred technique.
eCAHNomics @ 179
thank you for your reply, eCAHN.
how about this”
HOUSTON – Saudi Arabia has more oil, Amsterdam more tankers, New York more money, but Houston has the heart of the global oil industry. These days, it is not beating well. Study after study, executive after executive, and analyst after analyst is warning that there are rough times ahead for oil supply.
Here, oil news is analyzed, sorted and shelved. But in 37 years of writing about energy, in boom and bust, I have never found the kind of fatalism that now grips the oil patch.
The cause of the furrowed brows is simple: The global production and supply of oil, at between 85 and 86 million barrels a day, is straining the system. At those rates, supply and demand are in rough equilibrium which, according to many experts, should put the price at about $80 a barrel. The difference between that price and what we are paying (as much as $98 a barrel on some contracts) is a market premium extracted because of future fear – fear of war with Iran, fear that big oil producers will demand payment in euros, and simple fear that demand in Asia is outstripping the world’s ability to produce much more oil.
All I can think about is Bill Clinton’s p*nis. Is it b/c I listen to Rush?
bhatten @ 177
You are right. I have seen that on the teevee… Apparently, you have to get in two separate bathtubs to make it work right. Have y’all seen that? They end every “**alis” commercial with it. What the **** is up with that?
Or this:
According to Gregory Peters, head of credit strategy at Morgan Stanley:
There’s a greater than 50 percent probability that the financial system will come to a grinding halt. You have the SIVs, you have the conduits, you have the money-market funds, you have future losses still in the dealer’s balance sheet in the banks [..] That’s all toppling at once.
Financial institutions are acknowledging that the losses could reach over $400 billion, and that is before an additional several hundred billion dollars worth of residential real estate enters foreclosure, leading to additional losses in the derivatives market of many times that figure due to leverage.
Hip Su
Ba Zu
Teddy Bu
Ra Zu
Ice Kitty
Ice Kitty
NSA!
LS @ 188
It a view from escalon in those bathtubs.
Elliot@185
You’re welcome. Am responding only during the CSI-Miami commercials.
MGM doin a remake of the 1950s horror classic “The Blob” starring Clinton’s Dick.
“It moves- it grooves- it glides- it slides
across the floor and through the door and all around the house—-beware of the Dick!”
eCAHNomics @ 192
LOL!
SanderO @ 189
Republican trickle down a la Reagan and Bush I and II is sheer f**king genius!
hackworth @ 187
Mind control.
Identifying factors?Oh…that’s strange.Good night Okk and Lahoma.
Yee-Haw! Let’s Tase Code Pink…
A Fox News morning host has a novel idea to handle those pesky Code Pink protesters who disrupt political events and Congressional hearings: 50,000 volts of electricity.
Brian Kilmead shared his ever-so-evolved views on crowd control Monday morning in a Fox & Friends discussion of a Code Pink-disrupted Hillary Clinton speech. His answer to annoying anti-war types? Tasers or Billy clubs.
“They should Tase this guy,” Kilmead says. “At one point with security so high and tensions on edge, don’t you think they’re going to get at the very least Tased or beaten to a pulp by somebody? These people look threatening.”
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1119.html
LS @ 188
LOL-til my sides are breaking!
rwcole @ 193
Ok! That is enough. Go to your room.
marymccurnin @ 131
except corn ethanol which is driving to price of the staple food of lots of people to record highs.
otherwise,yes.
for wind,wave,water(hydro and tidal),solar(lots of different technologies evolved and evolving there),geothermal and probably others i don’t know of.
chinese(i think) adage says something about crisis = opportunity.
mother is the neccessity of invention?
permaculture -
the problem is the solution.
CTuttle @ 198
Don’t taz Code Pink Bro!!!
Sander0@189
Always consider the source of the story. If it comes from the oil ind (indirectly, of course, they aren’t stupid enuf to perpetrate their own myth-use media lapdogs, thinktanks, etc) be suspicious.
Re the controversy about peak oil – whether we are there or not – its more pertinent to remember that light crude reserves are mostly in areas which are politically unstable with high cost of extraction.
Loo Hoo. @ 190
I think Suzanne was drinking the same stuff last night.*g*
CTuttle @ 198
Time to k*ll Kilmead’s job. He’s a f*scist and he doesn’t even try to hide it.
hackworth @ 206
Authoritarian cretin.
sona @ 204
Check the data at TheOilDrum.com
Its peak oil time.
i will have it known that i was drinking coffee last night steve-ar (laughing)
Loo Hoo. @ 97
The female arsonist is a rare breed, iirc. This may prove interesting.
Suz!!
I’m installing a second bathtub in my bathroom…no…you have no right to wonder why!!! I saw it on the teevee, and they indicate it is the
way of the future of humanity to procreatetrend towards a greater humanity.LS @ 212
No double dipping!
Steve-AR @ 205
Ice Kitty???? Hmmmmmm.
Suzanne @ 208
Plus, greenwarrior figured out what the heck she meant. I still haven’t!
sona @ 204
Yep.
Besides, global warming trumps peak oil.
The rebuttal to any liberal argument is Bill Clinton’s p*nis.
Steve-AR @ 139
Because the little dweebs who think up this sort of nonsense get chubbies imagining all the magic beans they’ll have to plant to grow the soldiers needed.
TeddySanFran @ 210
Capital Biiiatch!!!
It’s a cheer I remember from my youth. (Not the NSA part)
That would be Chickey Boo Ba!
loohoo, i was just saying that instead of calling ya’ll the wahoo yahoo’s, don’t give free advertising to yahoo – and suggested the alternate of the wahoo yoohoo’s
LS @ 168
The bypass alone might have slowed him down, but probably not for long and maybe not that much. But if he’s on high blood pressure meds, guys that I know that are on them are either impotent (erectile dysfunction), or nearly so. It could put the kibosh on things.
SanderO @ 189
there seems to be a bit of an upcoming problem in the foreclosure section.
in order to foreclose the owner of the mortgage must be known.
all the”sliced and diced” instruments have made the identity of mortgage ownership vague to say the least.
Ann in AZ @ 222
Nope. I’m still thinking about Clinton’s p*nis.
That makes sense, Suz. PB, old coastie, burns, demi, newtonusr, mommybrain?
hackworth @ 224
So…what does it remind you of?
Our session is over.
loohoo, but i do like the idea of using a water word
‘A nation of proud slaves now broken, impoverished by my hand and made to do the bidding of their overlords, now and forevermore…My work here is done, pop a cold one’
;>)
Could this Michael O’Hanlon be the same Michael O’Hanlon from the Brookings Institution who is listed as one of Hillary’s main foreign policy advisors? Please tell me it ain’t so.
G nite mrs calabash wherever you are!
SanderO @ 162
Seems to me that I read that once you do pump the water in, then you’ve pretty much ruined that field for getting more oil out. If that’s so, then old fields that have already had water pumped in may well not be able to hold more oil to be stored and extracted.
I thought I also read somewhere that the oil being stolen from Iraq was being taken out of the country VIA pipeline.
Santiago Peak firepups? a little lofty, but we can all see that mountain on a clear day…
Nero on lead guitar…OFG!! We are doomed!!!
darkblack @ 228
Ah, a “classic” darkblack.
I guess it’s over, and Im going to my room. But only after laughing til I cried. Thanks folks. Let alone that I started the marriage topic only to say it’s not a big deal (not a good choice of words.)
To whom it may concern: You should stop listening to Rush.
Ive always thought humor is about its best around the 3rd grade style. Just never gets boring. ;)
wigwam @ 229
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/10/14/955/00431
darkblack @ 227
Ahhh! Cherub Cheney.
wigwam @ 229
Seriously? Seriously!
hackworth @ 208
From my readings, I think we are at peak oil and yes global demand is likely to go higher notwithstanding a massive recession which would reverberate around the world.
OldCoastie @ 231
I like it!
They really do need New Orleans. Oil in the gulf and to the south. Big land grab on the gulf coast. Fuckery all around.
Is Jane around? News wrriters may be next to strike. (You mean Katie Couric, Wolf Blitzer et al don’t write their own stuff? You mean they’re just monitor readers? I’m shocked.)
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/11/19/21140/698
Make that CBS News writers. Somehow it won’t let me edit my last comment.
eCAHNomics @ 235
Jeralyn is absolutely correct.
eCAHNomics @ 242
You mean Wolfie is going to have to make up his own questions for the next debate. Oh wait, Cheney writes them for him.
marymccurnin @ 245
if wolfie’s style doesnt change, then we will have confirmation of that
Suzanne @ 246
Wolfie has no style.
wigwam @ 229
Ouch.
marymccurnin @ 169
But, what will happen to the Clenis if Bill hasn’t been fixed?
TRex upstairs
marymccurnin @ 245
Cue the theme
;>)
LS @ 202
CODE PINK ARE THE MOST THREATENING LOOKING PEOPLE I HAVE EVER SEEN AND I’VE SEEN MOTORCYCLE GANGS, THUGS AND DELIVERY TRUCK DRIVERS
darkblack @ 228
greenwarrior @ 253
Aw shucks
:)
So when these guys insinuate that in the long run they’ll be seen as among the greatest American leaders in the history of ever, d’ya think it’s that they have some grand secret plan to prolong the US Empire past its apparent stale-date? (Like maybe some way to force oil to stay on the dollar?) Or is it more like they have some secret plan to allow the US economy to ease into its post-Empire future (i.e. rather than crashing hard)? Half the time I get the sense that crashing the US economy has been the aim all along.
It is sad that the mainstream media decided to betray the American people. Of course it would not think of itself in such a way, because honesty is uncomfortable, but dishonesty is a sign of intelligence.
It is sadder still that it is not just a few people in the mainstream media who chose this path, one could always expect such behavior of a few, but that so many did and so quickly.
Truly depressing is that it refers to this cowardly behavior as being realistic or facing reality, neither of which it is, nor does it want to be. It is a powerful manipulative tool that is in the wrong hands. It is difficult to be certain that one isn’t a tool on some level.
The mainstream media can be a used for good or a used for evil. It chose evil, because it is more profitable.
eCAHNomics @ 236
O’Hanlon is an affiliate of the Saban Center and a signatory of at least one PNAC letter. For reasons I can never understand, he is being fobbed off as a liberal. Both he and his buddy Kevin Pollack, Research Director of the Saban Center, are neocon hawks.
TexBetsy @ 4
I’ve heard Joe Biden talk a lot about foreign policy, but only on a few specific issues.
John Edwards is the only candidate who has outlined an overall plan and provided some specific policies to execute it.
Ask what Hillary thinks about foreign policy and you’ll come away with a headache. Ask what Obama thinks and it’ll cure your headache and leave you numb. Ask what Richardson thinks about foreign policy and he’ll ensure you he has the experience, but then he’ll confuse you with all his ideas. Don’t ask Kucinich about foreign policy. Seriously, don’t go there.
TexBetsy @ 87
John McLaughlin of The McLaughlin Group asked, “Should we run to the ledge now?”
What to do??? Invade every state north of ya????
What would Jesus do????
Didn’t they do that before?????
Haven’t we been to this rodeo before????
Is this Groundhog Century or what???? Oh, yeah…it’s a new century…it doesn’t matter then. Sorry, I have to watch the teevee to catch up on current events.
Musharraf Extortion. His people have been in charge of Pakistani nuke security for years. If the nukes go loose, Musharraf took them or he allowed them to be taken. Pakistan has already leaked nuke secrets and technology on his watch.
Musharraf’s opposition has no interest in that happening. Real terrorists must not be much of a threat; Musharraf has ignored them. The principal opponents Musharraf fears are lawyers, supreme court justices, a Harvard and Oxbridge trained opposition politician, an ex-cricket player superstar, and ordinary students, civilians and professionals. (Except for the cricketer, the same “enemies” list Cheney has.)
Musharraf seems to be playing the Cheney Scare ‘Em to Hell card. Cheney uses it here all the time, first on Dubya, then on us. It still works on Dubya.
LS @ 219
a Capital punishment case?
a Capital idea?
burnin’ down the House?
They say she’s really hot!
LOL
wigwam @ 257
So, why exactly hasn’t Hillary been questioned about having a PNACer on her team?
The French say that if one knows the motive one knows the perpetrator.
The French also say that no country invades another, expending its resources, for the sake of another country. A nation invades another to benefit itself.
Those crazy French, always the realists.
If any country believed that Iraq had WMDs it was because the U.S., Israel, or Iran, (enemies of Iraq,) led them to believe that it was true.
Scott Ritter stated unequivocally that his and other teams destroyed all the remaining WMDs following the Gulf War.
The reason that Saddam Hussein resisted inspections was that the teams had C.I.A. among them, and whenever the teams inspected a site it “magically” became a target.
The International Red Cross said that Iraq had one of the most sophisticated food distribution systems in the world until most of its infrastructure was destroyed.
Iraq was so crippled by economic sanctions that it had a difficult enough time feeding its people let alone buying or building WMDs. It wasn’t capable of a war of aggression. Sanctions only allowed Iraq defensive weapons.
Iraq was not capable of fighting the U.S. in a war; this was the reason that it capitualated to all U.S. and U.N. demands a few days prior to the attack. Dick Cheney said that the Iraqi leaders could not be trusted, (no kidding Dick, as if anyone needed him to say that.) On the other hand, Iraq’s capitulation did not make the war necessary. There was time to handle the situation in a different manner, but then all the profit opportunities would have been lost. The above realities are what made the invasion of Iraq, and the subsequent killing of Iraqi civilians war crimes.
It is illegal for any nation to pick out a relatively small economically crippled nation that is barely able to defend itself, and attack it for its resources.
Everyone but the administration, apparently, knew that Operation Iraqi Freedom and the creation of a democratic Iraq were smoke screens to disguise avarice and greed. In other words, crimes against humanity.
Fortunately, enough Americans believe that their leaders have the right to break international laws and treaties; otherwise, the leaders would be up that famous creek without a paddle.
If one listens closely to neo-fascist speak, it isn’t long before one realizes that whatever is said the opposite is true or exists entirely in the imagination.
Reform = destroy
Old school definition = improve antiquated
Defend = offense
Protect = disrespect
National interest = commercial interests
Republic = authoritarian regime
Democracy = capitalism’s enemy
Freedom = delusional
Altruism = Insanity
Self-sacrifice = count to ten and ask yourself
if you really want to do this
Agape = impossibility, how can anyone stand to
be around people?
Capitalism in its current form = fascism
Representative = a lawyer who works for
special interests
Senator = deal maker, it’s all about money
Constitution = indefinite obtuse outline
Rule of law = something those “other” people
have to obey
Torture = advanced interrogation techniques
replaces the old school: an act by
the criminally insane
It’s easy after one gets the hang of it.
purpleOnion @ 265
Here’s a truism, though…
Frank Luntz=dickhead
And of course David Broder, the ‘Dean of the DC Press Corps’ says he won’t write anything about the Rudy’s marriages. Claims it’s irrelevent even while he continues to write about the Clinton marriage (singular)and contrary to what he claimed while Clinton was in the White House.
After the 2006 elections I said that the press would do anything to prevent a Democrat from winning the White House. Sadly it’s now become all too apparent.
O’Hanlon was actually peddling the idea that US Special Forces help “loyal” Pakistani military to secure their nukes if the country was to disintegrate into civil war; not “invade” the country as with Iraq. You would prefer that the nukes were unsecured and available to Al Qaeda or the Taliban under this situation?
The mistake that O’Hanlon makes is assuming that there are clear-minded Pakistanis in their military who would cede control of the one thing that feeds their machismo and gives “worth” to 60 years of abject failure. Especially when it comes to their deeply held jealousy, fear and loathing of their Hindu neighbors to the East. In this regard the Pakistanis are no different from the schizoid and delusional North Koreans vis-a-vis the South.
When it comes to the security and self-preservation of our global civilization, the national interests of a paranoid, rogue state should not count for much. The civilized world needs to have a contingency plan to eliminate all Pakistani WMDs should the need arise. O’Hanlon and his ilk have to stop trying to appease the Pakistani military, which has been the greatest proliferator of WMDs that the world has known (and a major exporter of terrorism too). There is no need for an invasion; just a surgical attack like what the Israelis recently did to Syria should suffice.