Last Sunday, I was chopping up carrots for dinner when my husband called to me from the living room where he was watching a talking head on the CBS evening news. "This guy says we're going to have to invade Pakistan to secure their nukes!" he said, obviously concerned. As well he should be.
The talking head's name was Michael O'Hanlon. He had just written an op/ed piece with Fred Kagan along these lines that had run that very day in the New York Times. I had just read this about him and his let's-invade-Pakistan fetish over at Matthew Yglesias' shop (h/t to Atrios):
Can you imagine a responsible member of the Pakistani military inviting a large foreign military presence into the country as a prophylactic measure against a government collapse that hasn't actually happened? Can you imagine what the popular response to that would be? People already seem tired of living under a military dictatorship over there -- transforming it into a military dictatorship that involved tons of foreign troops seems very unlikely to shift that calculus.
Um, yeah. But here's the problem:
A few hundreds of thousands of people read Eschaton regularly. Maybe a few tens of thousands read Yglesias.
Tens of millions of people watch the CBS (and NBC, and ABC) evening news every day. Most of those people have probably never heard of Eschaton or Yglesias.
This made me think of another point:
The same people who just keep returning to various old rehashed stodge on the Bill and Hillary Clinton marriage don't have a similar fascination with the marital history of Rudy Giuliani, even though he's currently considered the front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination. And it's not just FDL saying this: Frank Rich at the NYT discusses this, too.
Yet not even Frank Rich appears on TV or even radio every day, telling us these things, and certainly nobody from FDL has been invited to do so -- not every day, anyway. (Hell, when somebody like Markos Moulitsas Zuniga gets so much as a once-a-week gig with Newsweek, that's cause for celebration in the reality-based part of the blogosphere.)
Instead, most Americans, who get most of their news from TV and radio, are much more likely to hear from someone who is -- you guessed it -- rehashing old Bill-and-Hillary stodge.
The guardians of the media discourse that most Americans are likeliest to encounter have been controlling this consensus reality for so long, and so utterly, especially in DC, that even the people who should know better -- namely, Democratic presidential candidates -- fall for their schtick and react just as the Republicans, who guard the guardians (and have for decades) want them to react.
There's a big fat barrier between what Big Media says is reality and what really is reality. Bear this all in mind when you wonder why things that to you are as obvious as paint aren't all that obvious to most other folk, even to some really smart folk you may know.
(Picture edited from this original taken by Xerones and posted under a Creative Commons license.)
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Steve-AR @ 1
Confident, eh? ;-)
What we need to do is develop a sane foreign policy.
TexBetsy @ 4
but first we have to have some sane officials and sane goverment.
CTuttle @ 3
Having a psychopath as the President has dampened my confidence.
Talk about crimes against nature.
I am sick to death of Bush, Rove, Cheney and GOP tyranny and terror.
NEW YORK - The U.S. military plans to seek a criminal case in an Iraqi court against an award-winning Associated Press photographer but is refusing to disclose what evidence or accusations would be presented.
An AP attorney on Monday strongly protested the decision, calling the U.S. military plans a “sham of due process.” The journalist, Bilal Hussein, has already been imprisoned without charges for more than 19 months.
TexBetsy @ 4
That would require sane individuals in the Executive…
O’Hanlon’s latest take is that “the improved situation” in Iraq is going to save the Bush legacy.yeh right.
Bush and his crew should be arrested, jailed, and tried for their crimes against humanity. And if convicted, sentenced to the same action as was Saddam.
via Kevin Drum:
And impeachment remains “off the table”. I am seething.
Did you guys see the last comment on the last thread? Is that really Jane?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
gotta disagree with you here. i’m for fair trials and against the death penalty. *g*
Do you realize that most of the world, and over half the people of this country despise George W. Bush and what he stands for?
Loo Hoo. @ 14
?? It’s odd, I missed the context.
Loo Hoo. @ 14
indeed, rather oblique.
Loo Hoo. @ 14
I saw that comment too and I went back to reread it.
punaise @ 12
Those were great. I really liked the Apple ones.
It’s just sour grapes…they haven’t convinced everyone to attack Iran, so they have to find a way to attack Iran, and then they will blame Iran for supplying nukes to Pakistan…oh, yeah…we supplied Pakistan with the nukes…but…oh, nevermind that…move along…it’s Iran’s fault, and Clinton made Iran do it.
Nevermind that the ISI of Pakistan supported the Taliban, who…oh, yeah…weren’t they the ones who attacked us?…oh, yeah, I forgot…it was Saddam and his Al Qaeda Aye-Rackies that flew those planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and the PA field…
Oh, yeah…now I remember. Isn’t Afghanistan where those long-haired dogs come from? Oh, yeah, and heroins. I don’t know why they have to have so many female heroins…I know they hate women over there, but why make them heroins? I just don’t get it, but I guess W and Dick do.
Invading Pakistan to ’secure’ their nuclear arms will be a cakewalk.
Rudy is most definitely damaged goods. Will he maintain his first place position? Depends on the MSM. So far, the MSM is beating back all Rudy controversy as it plays up Bill and Hillary’s alleged negatives. Worse, the MSM is preselecting Hillary and Obama as the Democratic winners as it downplays the viability of the other Democratic candidates.
punaise @ 18
response to NorskeFlamethrower @ 79 ?
Brothers Kagan and O’Hanlon were wrong during the run-up to Iraq, why would they blemish their perfectly abysmal track records now?
selise @ 15
I’m for fair trials. Make no mistake. Generally speaking I am not a promoter of the death penalty. But I want the punishment to fit the crime, in this instance. Very much so.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
with flowers. don’t forget the flowers.
Pakistan wouldn’t even be an issue if Kuchinich wasn’t stirring up the hornet’s nest with this ‘dept. of peace’ nonsense.
The media are the chokepoint of democracy.
The totally orchestrated it’s a Hillary-Obama horserace…what other candidates?–coupled with the St. Rudy of 9-11 crapola–just affirm that to me. Case in point tonight’s Hardball. You’d think there were no other candidates at all. Much less issues or policy positions.
Tweety…you’re a goon.
CTuttle @ 25
Fred Kagan is a Karl Rove look-alike. He aspires to be Karl.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
And greeted as liberators!! D’oh…
with flowers. don’t forget the flowers.
filling arms like buckets!
hackworth @ 23
Suddenly, no more Edwards. None. Nada. Kaput. And who was that Dodd person again? What about the short dude? And the long winded guy with the hair plugs. Wasn’t there a govenator running, too?
the whole pakistan situation is a huge problem. what a mess.
Pakistan and Iran. Wonder what will be the outcome?
war money says ‘hey hillary’s okay with us. and the kenyan too. we like him enough.’
sideline edwards though.
and kuchinich? dont even think about it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
It will be the reverse of whatever it should be.
Rudy has the potential to be as dangerous as a nuclear bomb.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
Let the Bush family lead the way!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 36
I just hate it that they get to decide instead of us.
marymccurnin @ 37
Not much ‘wiggle-room’, is there.
Things “as obvious as paint” to the clued-in blogosphere aren’t even obvious to those who you’d think might know better. I will never forget the incredulousness we encountered eighteen months ago from Feinstein’s San Francisco staffer about our concerns that Bush would bomb or invade Iran: “Well, you don’t think that would really happen, do you? I’m sure Senator Feinstein doesn’t think that would happen. Really, that’s highly unlikely. Do you really think President Bush would do that?”
All, of course, in a tone of knowing oh-so-much-more than us concerned but simple citizens. And all, of course, in the face of evidence to the contrary: fleet movements, actual statements by The Regime identical to pre-Iraq War statements, neocon “think tank” pronouncements. In April 2006!
My advice: even when speaking with those who oughta know better: speak s*l*o*w*l*y and use low-syllable count words and non-compound sentences. Repeat your thesis and proofs often. Request assent and clarification: “Are you following me?”
And hope for the best!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
We will be greeted with flowers and candy! Only fifty thousand troops will be needed! They’ll all be home in six months!
hackworth @ 23
Dan Abrams had the NYC firefighter spokeman who is still in the dept (some kind of officer) on tonight. The story he tells blaming Rudy for things that went wrong on 9/11* is very powerful and he’s very credible. Asked whether they would do to get out their story, he said they were considering their options. This is important. t will be very hard to discredit these guys, though, or course, the wingnuts will try.
*Not only put the command center in WT*C7 (iir the correct bldg #), which probably cost half the firefighters lives, but also surrounded himself with unqualified people-apparently promoted ordinary police & firefighters to highest levels.
Thanks PW
I Digg it
(heh heh:)
Gawd it pains me to say this. But perhaps it’s time we had a lawyer for our next president. And I don’t mean Rudy.
TeddySanFran @ 42
Teddy,
Do you have any news about Doolittle?
TeddySanFran @ 42
A-yep. That goes for most journalists, too.
One of the reasons that Joe Conason has managed to do as well as he has is that he was one of the first journalists of the internet era to take advantage of the hordes of people literally begging him to be his unpaid research workers. When other, snootier journos would tell us to go away, he worked with us and encouraged us to get out there and do more.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Hopefully the Bushies will get raptured and leave us alone…here in heaven. /s
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Why would our next president need a lawyer?
Steve-AR @ 17
marymccurnin @ 49
Edwards.
If we do anything to Pakistan or Iran, Israel will become involved. And it will spread from there.
LS @ 51
That’s the sticker I have on my car.
marymccurnin @ 49
:-) :-) Ha :-) :-)
Well, if you don’t like the “let’s protect the nukes” reason to invade Pakistan, how do you feel about the “let’s arm tribesmen in the tribal areas and train them to fight the Taliban” rationale?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11.....mp;ei=5087
Digby lays it all out:
Mission Accomplished
by digby
Man, Novak is certainly getting his revenge — and probably a big check — for throwing that little unsourced pile of used kitty litter into the Democratic primary. Congratulations, Bob, for a job well done.
It just doesn’t get any better for the Village Ladies press Club and Circle Jerk Society than this afternoon’s Hardball. David Shuster ran down the story straight, pointing out that Novak has subsequently said that he allegedly heard his little nugget of defamation about both Clinton and Obama from some Democrat who isn’t part of the Clinton campaign, but who knows someone or has heard from somebody who says it’s true. That’s apparently good enough for Chris Matthews anyway, and he’s running with it as fast as his little legs can carry him.
This is what ensued:
(snip)
link
“Well I’ve never been to Heaven… but I’ve been to Oklahoma…”
marymccurnin @ 49
That’s funny. And I like it. ;0)
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
Maybe incidentally shore up the government? Or take it down?
LS @ 48
There is a Bush wing in Hell.
Phoenix Woman @ 57
Gawd… you guys are keeping me laughing. I love it!
Maybe incidentally shore up the government? Or take it down?
you’re right could be either or.
who knows?
remember when nixon bombed cambodia he provoked tens of thousands to join the khmer rouge.
id imagine the laws of unforeseen consequences would kick in big time in the ‘invasion of pak.’ scenario.
and i bet there’s some bearded guy hiding in a cave who would just luvvv it
And remember this: If any of you ever plan to travel to Oklahoma you will need shots and a passport. ;0)
marymccurnin @ 53
I hope the Edwards team can get a better game plan working..the new polls seem to show decreasing support and Edwards support going to Obama. Of course that may not be the reality but only what the MSM is feeding us.
Phoenix Woman @ 43
Sadly, no ‘PALS’ for Pakistan…
The American program was created after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the Bush administration debated whether to share with Pakistan one of the crown jewels of American nuclear protection technology, known as “permissive action links,” or PALS, a system used to keep a weapon from detonating without proper codes and authorizations.
In the end, despite past federal aid to France and Russia on delicate points of nuclear security, the administration decided that it could not share the system with the Pakistanis because of legal restrictions.
-snip-
While many nuclear experts in the federal government favored offering the PALS system because they considered Pakistan’s arsenal among the world’s most vulnerable to terrorist groups, some administration officials feared that sharing the technology would teach Pakistan too much about American weaponry. The same concern kept the Clinton administration from sharing the technology with China in the early 1990s.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com.....ks#comment
masaccio @ 55
Well, it worked at Tora Bora, didn’t it?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 22
yellow cakewalk
marymccurnin @ 53
I think he’s the only one that is facing reality enough to know what the bottomline on life is. I’m sure he has the strong resolve to do the right thing for the country.
We’ve gotta get outta this place…and we will.
yellow cakewalk
!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 69
Requires a wide Pakistance.
Big media definitely lies. And in so many different ways. The big secret now is how dreadfully dismal the economy has really become. But big media needs to keep up the pretense long enough for its corporate masters to make off with their ill gotten gains before the election. It seems that a real economic crisis may be the only thing that will shake a complacent public out of its lethargy. So I suppose we can only hope that what has become inevitable happens sooner, rather than later.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Will I need to present, “your papers please” to visit you in OK???? (Don’t worry, I’m not really coming, so you don’t need to clean your house..and certainly not for me!!) *G*
Eureka Springs @ 70
Zingo!!
Completely OT, but what the hell:
Roll Call, via TPM:
Capitol Police Officer Suspended in Connection With Senate Bathroom Fires
I guess he was trying to smoke out certain minority leaders.
LS @ 73
Tee-hee. ;0)
allan_in_upstate @ 74
Was he smokin’ in the boy’s room? Or, the girl’s room?
allan_in_upstate @ 75
What do you have to do to get fired? Catch a repug giving a bj to an independent”
Steve-AR @ 64
eCAHNomics @ 44
There’s a good story, too, on the radios Rudy bought for the fire department that didn’t work. The police had good radios and the firemen had the bad radios Rudy bought. There was huge discrepancy in the price. The radios were motorola and allegedy, the japanese radios were better. There was a poor signal at the WTC site and everyone knew it - including Rudy. There have been few reports on this - but the NYC firemen are super pissed about this issue.
Speaking of the media, Ailes is lecturing at West Point.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....est-point/
the 2 reasons I can think of for why we won’t take military action in Pakistan are:
1) they have no oil.
2) they have nukes
after all, aren’t we getting a box of mangos in exchange for nuclear technology?
uh-huh.
selise @ 15
I’m against the death penalty as well, and then there’s no escaping the Law of Karma.
***
OT: New Washington Post/ABC poll shows Obama takes the lead in Iowa: Obama/30, Clinton/26, Edwards/22.
The economy is about to tank. Opec will probably be forced to denominate oil in euros or some of the countries will. With the tumbling dollar they are not making up for it with the rising oil prices. We’re taking a hit inside fortress America, but the sellers are taking a bath on the diminishing dollar.
Once the dollar gets seriously abandoned, our economy will completely tank. OUCH and then the poeple will walk up from the game boys, text messaging, iphones and ipods, and tear themselves away from the home theatre bought on credit which they hauled in the SUVs to the McMansion which they have no money down on a a mountain of debt and look up and see:
The sky is falling.
Trickle down economics done it. Free market capitalism but them… And the CEOs are laughing away up in the sky in the G5s.
It’s gonna get ugly when the sky falls and the fundies rise up naked.
hahaha.
The sky is falling
hackworth@80
Yes, there are plenty of stories that could crucify Rudy & we know them all. The point of the post, however, is that the rest of the country doesn’t. That’s why the NYC firefighters’ actions are important. It’ll be hard for the MSM to ignore them.
marymccurnin says
yellow cakewalk
that’s just a classic. :-)
Now where DID I leave that umbrella?
OldCoastie @ 82
Heroin routes?
Just for you Phoenix Person:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9uxlWQp9qA
CTuttle @ 65
But, Ctuttle, doesn’t that make sense? Wouldn’t it make sense that there needed to be a certain code for the nuclear arms to detonate? DID CHENEY/BUSH DO SOMETHING RIGHT? Is it possible that we have the key to the code?
Eureka Springs says
yellow cakewalk
Requires a wide Pakistance.
:-)!!!(-:
Eureka Springs @ 70
I’m not sure I understand the petro dollar vs the petro euro, but I’m thinking it is a kind of “gold standard” and gives the dollar some stability under normal circumstances…
it does occur to me that Saddam was crowing about using euro after the sanctions that lifted and we attacked…
the next to make statements about using the euro was Chavez and suddenly we started to demonize him.
I figure it must be pretty important this petro dollar thing.
OldCoastie @ 82
Noam Chomsky maintains that the US never attacks a nation that can effectively defend itself. There is historical evidence to support Chomsky’s hypothesis. Read Hegemony or Survival.
selise @ 27
This sarcasm is negative and *unpatriotic*. What could possibly go wrong?
Rudi needs to have huge demos at his stump speeches which just might get some bobblehead to report on it.
He’s so tainted with shit, it’s amazing he thinks he can walk right through it.
He would be fun as candidate for the repukes.
Bush was evil and dumb, but rudi is mean and evil. Both are completely self absorbed.
allan_in_upstate @ 74
She.
I was really really hoping that Michael O’Hanlon’s striking resemblance to Lyle Lovett would confuse wingnuttia and they would ignore the idiot WATB.
There goes another perfectly good fantasy.
Is that related to PayPal? I keep getting spam email from them.
eCAHNomics @ 99
what’s the code kenneth?
eCAHNomics @ 85
Right On Brother, I’m with you. I hope the firefighters’ truth will get out there.
hey don’t laugh…these twits just might try it along with Iran and I have a sneaky feeling Chavez should look over his shoulder,cause Venezuela’s got oil too.How can a reasonable mind think this kind of crap up?…oh….nevemind….
Loo Hoo. @ 89
If Pals had been shared, it would have disabled the Nukes in the advent of a Musharraf assassination or coup to over throw him… 8-(