Wikileaks* has just published the 2003 Camp Delta Standard Operation Procedure for Guantanamo. The DoD claims the contents are now outdated and refused to comment on the content but the document includes instructions that are direct violations of international law:
A confidential 2003 manual for operating the Guantánamo detention center shows that military officials had a policy of denying detainees access to independent monitors from the International Committee of the Red Cross.
The manual said one goal was to “exploit the disorientation and disorganization felt by a newly arrived detainee,” by denying access to the Koran and by preventing visits with Red Cross representatives, who have a long history of monitoring the conditions under which prisoners in international conflicts are held. The document said that even after their initial weeks at Guantánamo, some detainees would not be permitted to see representatives of the International Red Cross, known as the I.C.R.C.
It was permissible, the document said, for some long-term detainees to have “No access. No contact of any kind with the I.C.R.C.”
(snip)
In a section labeled “psychological deterrence,” the manual said military working dogs should be walked in the camp “to demonstrate physical presence to detainees.”
The Guardian notes that not only were visits by the ICRC blocked but even that “level-four prisoners should have: ‘No access: No contact of any kind with the ICRC. This includes the delivery of ICRC mail.’”
Stephen Soldz of Psychoanalysts for Peace and Justice and founder of Psychologists for an Ethical APA
notes:
In fact, for only one of the four levels was the IRC allowed unrestricted access to ask the detainee whatever questions they deemed appropriate. The other levels allowed only visual access or questions about “health and welfare only.” The camp commander seemed determined to prevent the ICRC from being able to obtain accurate information about detainee treatment.
Bernhard at Moon of Alabama has been reading the manual carefully and summarized the system of rewards used on the prisoners:
‘Rewards’ in Gitmo are a bigger piece of soap, the privilege to get toilet paper as required, toothpaste on Sundays or being allowed to keep a styrofoam cup in the cell. All ‘reward’ items can of course also be again confiscated to ‘discipline’ the prisoner.
8-10. Confiscation of Items
…
k. Items
…
(12) Styrofoam Cups. If the cup has writing on it, confiscate, complete a DA 4137, and give to the Evidence Custodian. If the cup is damaged or destroyed, the detainee will be disciplined for destruction of government property. Also, consult the damaged property matrix to determine the length of time the detainee loses the Styrofoam cup. If the detainee has lost his cup due to discipline, he will receive a cup with his meal but must return it at the completion of the meal. Due to supply issues, different size cups may be used at anytime. All cups are considered equal regardless of size.What do the authors, who considered and wrote about the equality of styrofoam cups, think about the equality of men?
Update: Wikileaks also has lists of military equipment shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan including nerve gas:
The United States has been caught with at least 2,386 low-grade chemical weapons deployed in Iraq. The items appear in a spectacular 2,000 page leak of nearly one million items of US military equipment deployed in Iraq given to the government transparency group Wikileaks. The items are labeled under the military’s own NATO supply classification Chemical weapons and equipment.
and lethal robots apparently. This material looks worth digging into for a clearer sense of what capabilities our troops are using – looks like a good research project for any firepups who’d like to take a close look.
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2
Siun! Fitz! lolo.
just a way of getting them to do what we want them to do. So boring to reshash this.
3. Pooh!
cinnamonape @ 4
I second that.
whoa… that is something else…
OT..but re: Passports and national Parks, I promised refs, google anything about the “Real ID law”
From a CNN piece:
(snip)
The cards would be mandatory for all “federal purposes,” which include boarding an airplane or walking into a federal building, nuclear facility or national park, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told the National Conference of State Legislatures last week. Citizens in states that don’t comply with the new rules will have to use passports for federal purposes.
(snip))
CNN
Sorry for the early OT but I didn’t want to forget to do it.
Nerve gas. Well isn’t that liberating.
Siun;
Extremely disturbing but powerfully necessary post!
I wonder if the photograph of the robot might not have somewhat the same impact internationally as the prisoner abuse photos.
Chilling, disgusting and inhuman.
If the ‘gamers’ are not held accountable our nation will be despised for generations and life here will be circumscribed and brutal.
Thank you Siun for the post.
Quickly looking at the links, it seems that this was in accord with DOD “policy”. And, of course signed off on by Geoffery Miller.
But is there any information as to who actually wrote all of these guidelines? And, if they were cribbed from any other source? Seem very Nazi-like to me.
Siun, this is the bitterest of ironies…
“During the lead up to the 2003 Iraq war, the United States famously accused Iraq of possessing portable mobile chemical and biological laboratories. Post invasion no such facilities were found. Ironically Iraq now has at least five portable mobile chemical and biological stations — held by the United States Army. The portables are valued at US$622,051 a piece.[15]”
Steve-AR @ 7
EPU’d from last thread. I just got a $10 Fed Park Senior card with NO ID, that is good for NO Fed Park fees for the rest of my life. Personnel are far less doctrinare than their bosses.
Eureka Springs @ 8
Isn’t that WMD?
CTuttle @ 11
Anyone who thought that ‘photos’ of 4 rectangles were mobile bio labs deserves anything that can be wrought.
Loo Hoo. @ 13
Yeah, too bad Saddam didn’t have any. Could have saved on shipping. [/bitter sarcasm]
Loo Hoo. @ 13
not when we do it! only when brown skinned people have ‘em.
eCAHNomics @ 14
The only vial produced as evidence, was the vial Colin Powell displayed in the UN General Assembly…
Here’s a Pic…
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1702/curveball-docs
OldCoastie @ 16
brown skinned people with our oil.
The document is the official manual for Gitmo – that has been acknowledged by DoD though they claim the rules and regs have “evolved” and that the document is “outdated.”
But it is a clear acknowledgement of war crimes … and while Reuters, NYT, etc have covered this it’s been muted …
“All styrofoam cups are equal…some styrofoam cups are more equal than others”.
I wonder if they charged the prisoners for large cups when they accidently dented a small one. Or charged them more “using the damaged property matrix” they charged by the day?
“Prisoner 42724…you’ve now lost the styrofoam cup issued on June 4th, 2002 for 2,321 days. At US$0.50 per gov’t issued cup…you’ve now accrued a debt of $1,160.50….with late charges. You are now having an additional Felony charges of Grand Theft of Government Property and Sabotage added to your potential charges since you have now exceeded the $1000 valuation limit.”
Or perhaps they gave some prisoners large cups of juice and others small ones just to sow jealousy or suggest some were receiving special privileges. When prisoners complain they can say “All cups are equal”
From Zuky:
…in the Shaquanda Cotton case, her stay at the youth correction facility after one year was prolonged because “contraband” was found in her quarters — more than required pairs of socks and a styrofoam cup.
At least the people in Gitmo get to have a styrofoam cup.
Siun @ 19
And, of course, they didn’t say that these rules had “evolved.” I’m sure they think they’re clever.
Acanthus @ 21 – do you have a link for that? I’d like to read more.
Different thing..I have the “Golden Eagle” pass..good for life..pass and ID get you into the park.
The “Real ID” is different..there has been a lot of push back by states and Congress and now DHS is saying ‘09.(hopefully never). If things stay on course, in ‘09 you will have to present the park pass plus a “Real ID” or your US Passport to get in.
cinnamonape @ 20
What about the ones used during the waterboarding…
Siun @ 19
Perhaps a few hundred thousand emails with a link to the pdf. included to both Kucinich and Pelosi would get Speaker Pelosi’s table in order.
If the doc is outdated, I’d sure like to see what the updated one says. Bits of soap. Toothpaste on another religion’s holidays. No writing allowed on your styrofoam cups. No dents–or they’ll take it away. Sheer mind fuckery. With, I might add, the help of military psychologists and the American Psychological Association.
Acanthus @ 21
Only if they behaved. When David Hicks returned to a high-security Australian jail his lawyer said that Hicks was having trouble adjusting to the amount of freedom he now had. In a high-securty jail!
Siun @ 19
How things have changed with Corporate Media. 20 years ago that would have been Pulitzer stuff and a multi-week newspaper series. Now ho-hum.
Siun @ 19
Siun- I am still interested to know if there is any hint as to the exact people (names) involved in writing the guidelines.
And, I know you can’t answer this at this point, but maybe it could set off a google mission- do parts of derive from earlier torture manuals? Nazis, treatment of Japanese who were rounded up and put in camps in CA during WW2? etc.
persiflage @ 28
Spooky, No? 8-(
A gentle trip down memory lane part 1:
“They hung themselves with fabricated nooses made out of clothes and bed sheets,” base commander Navy Rear Adm. Harry Harris told reporters in a conference call from the US base in southeastern Cuba.“They have no regard for human life,” he said. “Neither ours nor their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation but an act of asymmetric warfare against us.”Source
Maybe it is just another case of letting out enough information to keep people scared.
20 years ago, an American military that committed deliberate, approved acts of torture would have been condemned around the country and the world. Now not only the press, but people in general look the other way.
A gentle trip down memory lane part 2:
in a little more detail:
“We” on the other hand panic when civilised people react with outrage every time we display our naked contempt for human life and civilised values:
and we have been here before:
“Orientals don’t place the same value on human life as we do.” — General William Westmoreland.
You lost that one too.
That’s from our old site – posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 it still gets visits every day We still get about 4 emails per week about it.
i don’t think CS is a nerve gas (or was something else on the shipping lists?) – although it is a considered a chemical weapon in warfare (but not domestic crowd “control”).
VG: Military psychologists (and private psychs contracting for work) worked backwards from a program called SERE, set up years ago to help military personnel prepare themselves for torture from other countries. Wiki has more. You will also find some interesting articles if you google APA and torture or go to Psychologists for an Ethical APA.
Spooky indeed, Mr Tuttle!
Siun @ 19
I served proudly from ‘85-’05 in the US Army/ANG, our SOP was not to violate Geneva Conventions… It’s abysmal to see some serious top-down decisions decimate the Military…
Laura Doty @ 34
The rest of the world must consider us dangerously insane.
Maybe they are wondering where the ‘good’ Americans are.
Hitler’s Germany = Bushes’ America?
How many inhuman outrages must we all endure?
Du – thank you for that important reminder … and Laura – the links from Stoldz point to a group trying to get the APA to stop allowing members to participate in torture …
Valley Girl – I think Naomi Klein actually addresses that in some of Shock Doctrine – the development of torture techniques from “experiments” on the mentally ill … and we know that there’s a strong connection between techniques use in Israeli facilities on Palestinian prisoners.
ot, but not really – on c-span today: comey gave a speech before the ABA on counterterroism. i found it extraordinarily depressing. he may be a gifted lawyer, but his “understanding” of suicide terrorism seems to be limited to jingoism.
the webcast should be posted to the archive link (above) tomorrow.
selise @ 42
Mahalo, Selise, you’re such a mango, err… peach! *g*
I think my memory fails me…how much did the Red Cross publicize any of what it had to know about the limited access? I think I recall some early disputes, but not very much.
Inside Higher Education is an article that contains links to other disciplines (anthropology, for example) that have objected to its research being exploited by U.S. torturers. It also details that 3 U.S. college psych departments are formally protesting the APA’s current stance.
For anyone who’s interested, the site withholdapadues mentioned by Siun (and linked from Soldz’s site, will have lots of info.
bhatten @ 44
Actually, the international branch has been pretty shrill, however, the American branch leaves much to be desired…
Siun @ 41
Just look at the video on Naomi’s Amazon page. OMG. Ordered the book today and can hardly wait for the documentary. I sure hope it comes out before the election.
Loo Hoo. @ 47
Both versions would be cherry! ;-)
bhatten@44 – the International Red Cross does not normally publicize their actions/findings but instead uses them to negotiate issues with the government involved. They did publicly criticize the US on Gitmo and have said – somewhat tepidly to my mind – that there have been some changes.
Here is another very revealing/depressing article about the DoD and torture studies. (and, yes, more psychologists involved).
(In case I seem like I’m grinding an axe, I am a psychologist who is withholding my APA dues, and likely soon quitting this organization if it appears that change will not manifest from within. I am appalled and ashamed not only by the deeds, but by the apathy of too many in my profession.)
Siun, thank you and bless you for the work you do,
and pups, digg it!
Laura Doty, are you in private practice?
Laura Doty @ 50
Aren’t you required to be in good standing?
To Loo, And I hope we can find something to Hope about in the elections. We twice elected this guy, or at least, elections were close enough to be tainted. Can we rebuild hope both in the election itself and in the chosen leader. The failed election system scares me as much as anything. Plus, no one has really paid the price for the first, Abu, prison scandal.
Elliott @ 51
amen!
and thanks for the digg it! reminders.
For the rest of the cheerful news:
(IRIN)
http://gorillasguides.com/2007/11/18/فقر-الدم-يعصف-بنساء-العراق-والبطاقة-ال/
87% of pregnant women in rural Irak suffer from severe anemia. The cause malnutrition, and the confluence of disease and pregnancy. In particular typhoid. (That’s from one of our Arabic language postings today.)
Conservative estimates place increases in infant mortality following the 2003 invasion of Iraq at 37 per cent (Yesterday)
And we managed to get our hands on the latest WHO situation report on what they are now calling an epidemic (it’s not publicly available)
Cholera Sitrep_34
2. Overview
The most important development during weeks 44-45, is the steep increase in the number of cholera cases reported from Baghdad. Out of the 51 new cholera cases reported this week 29 (57%) were reported from Baghdad. The cumulative number of laboratory-confirmed cases increased 2.6-fold, from 19 to 49. 57% of new laboratory-confirmed cholera cases this week were reported mainly from the high-risk areas in the 4 most disadvantaged districts in Baghdad
Sadr City,
Me’dain,
Baladiat
and Al-Resafa.
Data provided from Baghdad is neither complete nor timely; therefore, reported cholera cases may underestimate the real situation. What is reported from Baghdad seems to be the tip of the iceberg.
While the cholera out break is moving quickly towards Baghdad; WHO and UNICEF are running short of the needed resources to improve case reporting; management and containment activities in all affected areas especially in Baghdad.
And I see that FDL can’t cope with Arabic in links :-) Not surprised running a bi-lingual blog is a bugger.
Laura – please keep us updated on the APA issues … and good for you in helping to fight on this!
Laura Doty @ 50
Laura- whoaah- no way you are grinding an axe, except in the best sense. I remember many of your earlier comments (maybe on Lew Koch’s Padilla posts?) esp. during the SF meeting.
This needs all the exposure it can get.
Good evening, all. I get so angry when this subject comes up… to think this country has fallen so low to allow such a prison. It reminds me of the legendary French prison depicted in the movie with Dustin Hoffman.
But this is no movie. Real human beings are living lives of desperation in this place (and probably many other locales that we don’t know about). Rules on styrofoam cups indeed. To think that Americans cold stoop this low to sit down and write such rules as if they were dealing with animals.
I will be writing each of our Democratic candidates for the presidency stating that we will not tolerate this activity and the existence of this place. Right now I don’t care which one of them is nominated; I only care that they each understand that this treatment and illegal detention without hope of a trial or release has to stop.
In a democracy !!! the military takes orders from elected officials, voted in by the citizenry. I have always admired the military, in fact, our family’s five generations of service attest to that. But this military, this CIA, this Pentagon needs to be reined in. Of course, it goes without saying that George Bush must go.
I have given up hope that our elected Congress can do anything about this while Bush is in office. I hope for war crimes trials for the war and wiretaps gang of Bush, Cheney, et al.
But we must rise up and state unequivocally that this cannot continue!
Out of Irak, Now!!!
Steve-AR @ 29
Sad but oh so true.
Du – thank you for giving that update. I was a bit swamped today and didn’t get to put in all I hoped so having the info added here is a real help!
Thanks, Siun, for all the information. Tepid sounds just about right; it seems unfortunate that the reports/violations cannot be more public.
Valley Girl @ 58
*sigh* I really miss Lew! Any idea what’s up with him these days…?
Laura Doty @ 50
You wouldn’t be the first of course. If you do, please make sure they know know why.
Mary Pipher, NYT best selling author of “Reviving Ophelia” went a step beyond a few months ago, returning her Presidential Citation award the APA had given her in protest of their support for neocon evils. With a daughter approaching the teenage years, Pipher’s book has been very helpful around our house, so I noticed this bit of news when it came out.
Best wishes with your decision.
Loo Hoo, yes I am.
CT: Formally withholding dues is allowed in the organization for 2 years. I can’t vote or receive journals/mags of the APA, and status in some divisions becomes dicey. Hundreds of psychs have joined withholddues already, and the membership is growing. I am a very little cog in a group of people who are working VERY hard on this.
Glad to keep you posted, of course.
David W. Bartoo @ 40
The rest of the world must consider us dangerously insane.
I can’t speak for all of the rest of the world but down here in the Antipodes the answer is no, we don’t consider YOU dangerously insane, your government, OTOH is a whole other puddle of drool.
Maybe they are wondering where the ‘good’ Americans are.
We know that the ‘good’ Americans are here at FDL and other progressive communities. We know that most of you are even more pissed off with your Government than we are. We know you’re working for change. We sympathise with your frustration and anger, and share it.
Hitler’s Germany = Bushes’ America?
Only time will tell us that. The day we find the Internet cut off is the day that we’ll all be sure of the answer.
How many inhuman outrages must we all endure?
That’s a question I don’t want to know the answer to.
Laura Doty @ 66
2 Years… I’m rooting for you and your every ‘little’ effort…! *g*
bhatten @ 54
We need paper ballots, or some way of verifying votes imo. No one has paid the price for any of the crimes yet, but thank all that is good for Henry Waxman, Patrick Leahy, Russ Feingold, etc. I think Americans know that something is very wrong. They don’t know what, but they know that something is very, very wrong. The question is, will they be fooled into thinking that the problem is Muslims and Mexicans?
bonkers @ 65
Forgot a link:
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..28/1527210
I find the fact that pregnancy has once again become a dangerous disease absolutely horrific. I was so horrified that I went and did some research – Typhoid was eradicated in Irak in 1960. Now it’s back.
Next time somebody gives you that bullshit about how women are better off. Tell them that 87% of pregnant women in rural Irak are now at risk of death.
Jesu!
Bonkers – thanks for that link. Do you also know the book Ophelia Speaks? My daughter found it very helpful and so did I.
My concern is that we can’t undo the steps toward authoritarianism that we have taken. I can’t imagine we will ever be able to walk on a plane without taking off or shoes, or have to have our bags rayed and empty out pockets when I go to the building department, or rock center for that matter!
Why is everyone so paranoid? I am freaked out by the military standing around Grand Central with assault weapons. I never could imagine this in the USA.
Wait till you see what they are going to ask you when you travel internationally.
Can we ever rid ourselves of this big brother thing? I doubt it and that depresses me no end.
dubhaltach @ 71
And 37 % infant mortality rate. I haven’t been able to get that out of my mind since it came up on GG. Nearly four out of every 10 babies dying since 2003. I’m sitting here with my head in my hands, without words.
Next time somebody gives you that bullshit about how women are better off. Tell them that 87% of pregnant women in rural Irak are now at risk of death.
Jesu! And O God: Because the facts you quote have been brought to us by the culture of life people who abhor abortion. I do not mean to be flip. But the tragic irony here seems to be symbol of every misrepresentation, distortion, disbelief that we have lived and increasingly pointed out. Something has got to stop the horrors we are witnessing and creating.
We got all excited last week because it looked like the telecom immunity may be successful. Doesn’t that pale in the sight of human life & death tragedy.
Loo Hoo. @ 69
Optical scanners of fill-in the bubble, paper ballots work well here…
Laura Doty @ 50
One would think that if any group of ‘educated’, so-called ’social scientists’
would clearly understand and stand with humanity against degrading and inhumane behavior, it would be THIS group; I share your shame. Though I have not been involved in the
‘profession’ for many years, I am increasingly hard pressed when younger people who are interested in psychology ask me what I think of their desire to pursue such a career. All of them are bright, insightful and compassionate and would likely become worthy practitioners, but now, I wonder what they would be taught. None of my professors or mentors from the sixties would condone what is occurring. The profession, which I still value highly in the efforts of persons such as yourself, is at a moral crossroads, quite akin to the crossroads our nation itself now faces.
It is a crisis which the profession has brought upon itself. I questioned those of my fellows who willing joined the military during Vietnam, I would not, risking prison and professional censure; but the culpability of far too many in the field today, who choose silence rather than personal conscience is extremely troubling and may well tarnish the profession grievously, but legitimately, for many years to come.
SanderO @ 73
I read Shock Doctrine on a weekend that involved plane flights. Seeing all of us acting like sheep, tolerating minor indignities, looking at the huge bins of discarded water bottles (and then seeing thirsty folks pay $3 a pop on the other side of the gate) having just read that book made me see this garbage for what it is: a way of getting us used to being cowed, putting up with stuff, not objecting–and, being fleeced at the same time.
We have got to push back against all this.
CTuttle @ 76
how do you know? is there a good system of oversight and spot checking by hand counting?
Steve-AR @ 29
I disagree.
Twenty years ago, Americans were making a Marine lieutenant colonel war criminal into a national hero as he bragged about subverting the constitution in the name of “freedom and democracy” and the New York Times, Washington Post, and national news magazines were lionizing him instead of calling him and his band of criminals in the executive branch as the criminals they were.
Maybe thirty years ago, but twenty years ago American news organizations had already been infiltrated and those who spoke the truth about the crimes being committed by government agents were vilified; look at Robert Parry if you need any proof.
Siun @ 72
We’ll check it out. Thanks!
Laura Doty @ 66
Please do. Be strong, Laura.
SanderO @ 73
Military with arms at Grand Central???
Yeah Laura – I know the feeling.
selise @ 79
Each precinct does a mandatory spot check of a machine and and ballot box, say 200 ballots, and confirms the hand count and the machine’s count… Also, each paper ballot is numbered and registered in the roll… No results have been successfully over-turned, yet! And, remember we did elect a Green Party Mayor once… *g*
Hiya Siun. Howdy y’all!
Yeah at Grand Centralk, soldiers in fatigues with automatic weapons standing around.. mostly talking with cops. It’s freaky.
We need a national strike… even for an hour. The people need to step forward.
They have a no fly watch list of 200K… that’s insane.
SnarKassandra @ 86
Aloha, Missy! Didja get behind the wheel this weekend?
NYT
U.S. Considers Enlisting Tribes in Pakistan to Fight Al Qaeda
snip
I asked Naomi Klein if she thought there was a bit of Shock Doctrine in the current Pakistani situation.. She didn’t reply.. but I don’t know what else one would call this shift in strategy.
CTuttle @ 88
Yep! We went to an interfaith thanksgiving service and i drove there and back. Also to my friend’s house this morning.
SnarKassandra @ 90
Kewl! *g*
The poor authors come here and are besieged by brilliant questions from you pups. This ain’t no MSM 3 minutes chat. Can’t imagine how any of them could answer 1/10 the questions.
I was out in LI and just read the Naomi salon. Damn, I love that women.
The roads are empty… gas is up.
Eureka Springs @ 89
It worked so well in Afganistan didn’t.
David W. Bartoo @ 77
I agree with you. I started college in the early 70s and got my doctorate nearly 20 years later. The field in general has become enormously focused on academics/institutions–independent thinking just isn’t appreciated as it once was (in my experience of it. at least). I think students these days have a bleaker, far less stimulating row to hoe. And there’s a lot of grubbing for gov’t money going on.
SanderO @ 92
But, but, they’ve always enjoyed the experience… Mostly…
marymccurnin @ 94
it.
I sure hope Markos has a good contract with Newsweek, ‘cuz Rove has been on the front page of MSNBC all day with no mention of Markos.
ES at 89,
Yes, getting the tribal leaders worked so well at Tora Bora, didn’t it?
Edit: Never mind, Mary Mc already said what I wanted to say!
Bravo, Siun! This stuff only scratches the surface, but is very important, in terms of War Crime violations surfacing in such a way that an International Tribunal can wrap its hands around it as a case.
I hate this goddam fucking war!
It will be interesting to learn more how our own military will react to new ideas/expansion. There has been quite abit of discussion that maybe some of the brass will begin to balk at Ws whims (Iran, for instance). There was more coverage over the weekend about how limited/stretched the troups are. Has W noticed?
ET – the wikileaks site is pretty impressive – I think we’ll see a lot of news coming out through there.
Sorry for the OT but I am Diggnorant. I’ve signed up, but how do I add a Digg to this?
Laura Doty @ 50
From Malcolm Nance’s Article in SWJ…
link
The MD’s and Psychologists who were/are part of torture “teams” should be tracked down and prosecuted as war criminals. There is no stature of limitations for the US 1996 War Crimes Law.
bhatten @ 101
he does not care.
Laura Doty @ 103
Just click on digg near the title at the top of this post.
Between that and the Secrecy News service from the FAS and of course Open CRS there is quite a lot of information floating around.
FAS have a newsletter service which I’d encourage everyone to sign up for.
O/T Christina – if you’re talking to Dahr could you say to him that Omar isn’t back from his travels and we’ll write to him once he is.
Steve-AR @ 104
What Steve-AR said…
and what Laura Doty does.
I admire you, docs.
Laura Doty @ 103
lol @ Diggnorant
Dr Kirk, are you the same kind of doc?
In fairness, the Amer. Medical Assoc, the Amer. Psychiatric Assoc, the Amer. Nursing Assoc, the Amer. Assoc of Social Workers have all declared that it is unethical for their members to participate in the interrogation of prisoners. Only the Amer. Psychological Assoc. continues to countenance its members’ participation. Most Associations withdrew in early 2006 (or sooner, possibly): since the AMA did, the military announced that it would only use psychologists.
Currently, folks are trying to get the California Board of Psychology to take a stand against psychologists licensed in that state participating in interrogations, as a new way to address this.
Laura Doty @ 95
Laura, I appreciate your insights on so many things and will relay your ’sense’ of the educational experience to those who would follow your path. Psychology seems that it could be such a noble and humane contributor to ‘in’sight, understanding and the well-being of our species, it is both sad and sobering to truly realize how low it might have fallen.
Nonetheless, if it is to be what both of us hope it is capable of becoming it will be because of brave and loving beings like yourself. You are a most worthy representative of all that is best in its practice and its potential role in preserving our species, literally, as sane, conscious and whole beings, individually and collectively. I am very glad and thankful for your presence.
Eureka Springs @ 106
Yes, but then what? (and thank you).
bhatten @ 75
On the face of it, the human tragedy seems more critical. However, with the ability for the government to spy on people wantonly, many many more people can die as a result of what they do with the information they learn. That includes what they learn about people fighting the policies that cause the deaths. Then there’s their ability to suppress dissent as a result of what they learn. And then kill even more people.
In my opinion, first we need habeas corpus back. Then we need deconglomeration of the media. Then we can begin to handle all the rest: fair elections, the wanton death and destruction of people and the environment, telecoms illegally doing illegal government bidding, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
So, Laura, is someone high up in the Psychology Association making some big bucks right about now?
Steve-AR @ 104
And no out for the CIA, too! It specifies ‘Whoever, commits…’
SnarKassandra @ 110
IIRC..Dr Murphy is a psychiatrist, Dr, Doty is a psychologist and I was a plumber.
plumber?
Laura Doty @ 113
click on digg this, on the page it takes you to.. Sometimes there is a little up or down arrow instead. Sorry, I set up the original digg for this post and can’t get to the page you will see for a fresh description.. It will tell you with an up arrow or the word dugg, when you click on the correct place.
Can you digg?
What do digg do?
They can kill the Internet but they can’t shut down everything — unless they shut down everything!
Google is your friend — try for computer bulletin boards, and FidoNet. This is how us old timers communicated online before most of you ever heard of the internet.
It might pay to poke around your community and develop some informal networking to people who used to use this kind of networking.
I can tell you this: there were hacker boards and so on that ‘the man’ tried to shut down. Hard to do when they move sometimes in minutes.
Folks, thank you for your very kind thoughts and support. Again, though, I am just a little potato in this thing. People like Stephen Soldz and Steven Reisner have been doing incredible work fighting the APA and galvanizing others to join this fight.
For me to become of the focus of this puts me in a light I don’t deserve. What I do think, though, is that if there is anything I do that is worthwhile, it is this: just to keep on paying attention to what is going on and to do what I can–little or big–to address it. What I try to do, is keep at it, day after day, with or without hope. And I think each of us is doing that as much as we can. And that helping each other out, as we do here, and sharing what we know is utterly vital to hanging in with this hard work.
To Green @ 114; I like you analysis and really I do not think the immunity thing is minor. To look at your list, and to know the list goes longer, is appalling. What occurs to me as well is more understanding about why they have so much wanted to appoint the Federal bench. While most of the heat has been about Roe, etc., the real power is going to be in these crazy positions on freedoms and letting so much illegality go unpunished. For the years of Judge appointments, they have deep cover for these terrible acts. Reid has really stepped up by not letting the Senate go on recess. Clearly W is a sociopath and a tool, and there is no limit to what he is willing to do. The impeachment tipping point may be getting nearer.
Cassie, I’m an MD – specializing in psychiatry.
Most of my career I spent working with surgeons, internal medicine specialists, and OB/GYN’s. I call them the “real docs” (unil recenly, psych was rather sketchy). They are either MD’s or DO’s.
Laura is a clinical psychologist – they have Ph.D’s and actually study healthy minds. That givesthem far more strengths in helping minds get healthy.
Medical (MD) education – until very recently paid scant attention to health, much less healthy minds.
[This may have been self-protection: even today, physicians in training for most medical/surgical specialties are so sleep deprived that several die every year falling asleep on the way home from call - when they’re driving.
But I digress.]
To me, the clincal psycholgists are the real “healthy mind” docs.
PS – After years of teaching in LA and now San Francisco, I’m happy the medical education system gives trainees more sleep. Now they only have to work 80 hrs/ wk.
On average.
ES@ 119
In spades, daddy-O!
Thanks!
(((((Laura Doty)))))
moose @ 121
don’t forget the ham radio and kernel driver!
greenwarrior @ 114
I don’t think we can do any of it until we have fairly funded elections.
marymccurnin @ 94
I’ve just finished reading a book called “NON-Violent Soldier of Islam” about Badshah Khan who led the Northwest Frontier’s ferocious Pashtuns in non-violence. He was a good friend and worked together with Gandhi, ultimately leading to the British leaving India without bloodshed. This is the Northwest of what is now Pakistan and the Pashtuns are also in Afghanistan. The border is extremely arbitrary. I think it’d break Badshah’s heart if he were still alive to see what’s happening there now. Very readable book about a wonderful man and gives some background on that area that’s helpful to know for current events.
Wow, greenwarrior, how things have changed, huh?
TeddySF upstairs
Steve-AR, you’re far from a plumber. IIRC, you’re a Harvard-trained surgeon: a very real doc.
(And I still tie my shoes in bunny ears – had the above in my last comment but my sausage fingers deleted it, Sorry about that.]
tw3k @ 127
A very good point! =:-)
Just to be perfectly clear, as I am licensed in the state of California, which has a funny way of distinguishing these things. I am a psychologist practicing clinical and forensic psychology. I am not a clinical psychologist, as the Ph.D. I earned is declared in psychology, not clinical psychology (even though it was clinical psychology that I studied). Herein today’s lesson in the oddities of ethics, as I am ethically obliged to make clear that I am not a clinical psychologist, although I am a clinician.
oops – my bad, Laura.
kirk james murphy, m.d. @ 132
Kirk, thanks for confirming my suspicion.
‘Plumber’, indeed….
greenwarrior @ 129
The Pashtun suffered the same fate as the Kurds, dissected into oblivion, strewn across numerous arbitrary national boundaries…
kirk james murphy, m.d. @ 135
Not at all, Kirk. How could you possibly know?
And David, I will treasure up what you said in my heart.
Thank you, so very much.
bhatten @ 123
from your lips to congress’s ears!
Which is one reason why they’re not even remotely pacifistic today.
kirk james murphy, m.d. @ 135
LOL
Haven’t had a chance to read all the comments but was just finishing up Scott Hortons’ post on torture, Gitmo, etc. etc.here:
http://harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001697
As well as his previous post pertaining more to Gitmo and psych: http://harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001695
Both worth a read……
As always, Thank you Siun.
David, you are a psychologist? Cool.
With the greatest respect to you and Laura (and Peterr) my mental image was that you were some form of religious teacher: pagan priest(ess), rabbi, Buddhist monk, Holy Father, iman, reverend, guru, nun…..
thanks siun
the video was weird. that part about the guard issing on the koran(!) justa little wind came up and all that. also the interrogation room w/the lounge chair..
something seems amiss. i remember a newyorker article about tecniques.. something tells me this video is a touch sanitized.
what a shame, a disgrace. what has happened to our democracy?
Laura Doty @ 111
Why should we be fair? A resolution is nothing, and practically pitiless; the APA has never so much as moved to change policies; those trade associations aren’t applying any pressure on the APA, nor are they acting to leverage change.
Same as initial situation.
No one’s policing their own. Psychologists are pariahs until they do.
Even with probable sanitization, this place looks ugly as hell. Sort of a cross between a mental hospital from some hellish era and the a prison from another hellish era. It’s hard to pinpoint what I feel is ugliest because there is so much in that video:The infantilization, the darker hints, who knows. The “freedom” part. Even the “standard issue koran” seems insulting. I am thoroughly embarassed for my country. Are this guards so ding-dong that they feel that everything’s ok?
Sue Arrigio M.D. on conspiracy planet is a must read with what is going on with US tax dollars. worse than Hitler…torture and killing. Ours is very sexual in nature.