(Please welcome in the comment section author Naomi Klein -- jh)
The political impulse to take advantage of social upheaval in order to implement unpopular policies that a citizenry would otherwise fight against seems to be throughout history a rather intuitive one. In The Shock Doctrine, however, Naomi Klein looks at how Milton Friedman and "The Chicago Boys" -- fundamentalist free marketeers whose orthodoxy was incubated under Friedman at the University of Chicago -- codified it into economic writ:
[Friedman] observed that "only a crisis -- actual or perceived -- produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable."
Those who remember the hasty passage of the Patriot Act and wondered at how the government could suddenly disgorge a tome of civil rights-infringing legislation the size of the Manhattan phone book only weeks after 9/11 and then proceed to bludgeon members of Congress into voting for it in the name of combating terrorism will find the blueprint achingly familiar. If Ronald Reagan was the original White House prophet of Friedman's views, George Bush has been its most devoted acolyte. Just as many bloggers have long argued, Klein also posits New Orleans was allowed to fester in the wake of Hurricane Katrina not because of cronyism and incompetence but by design, in order to facilitate what Klein refers to as "orchestrated raids on the public sphere" -- privatization of assets such as school systems and civic spaces that the public has decades' worth of investment in.
But according to the revisionist economic history that Klein paints throughout the book, enabling rapacious corporate greed across the globe has been a doctrine embraced and enabled by administrations of both parties. It was Bill Clinton after all who supported Boris Yeltsin with $2.5 billion in aid even as Yeltsin issued a decree abolishing the constitution and dissolving the parliament -- and then proceeded to auction off everything of value in the country to the oligarchs at bargain-basement prices. And Rahm Emanuel's recent bill to militarize and privatize the US/Mexico border is little more than another corporate boondoggle, fueled by fear that the bogeymen are going to eat the babies unless we ascent.
Along with her historical narrative of the exploitation of economic shock across the globe, Klein weaves a tale of torture -- the literal "physical" shock applied to a populace unwilling to accept the economic bullying of Chicago school economists, military dictators, the IMF and the World Bank, the CIA and the US government acting as agents of vulture capitalists preaching the doctrine that free markets and democracy go hand in hand. It doesn't take much perspicacity when looking at the histories of Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, Indonesia and the former Soviet Union to see that the connection is hardly axiomatic. The thread she weaves between economic and physical shock, however, is probably the book's most tenuous, and the latter gets dropped throughout much of the book -- not so much because no connection exists, but rather one senses because there is so much material to manage it becomes difficult to juggle both narratives at once.
Particularly compelling is Klein's sketch of the "disaster industrial complex" that has driven so much of the economy under the Bush administration, who flogged the "war on terror" in order to liberate the public coffers. While Wall Street speculators financed the dot com boom of the 90s, it is the American taxpayer who has picked up the tab for the new corporate robber barons:
By early 2006, this informal exchange had become an official arm of the Pentagon: the Defense Venture Catalyst Initiative (DeVenCI), a "fully operational office" that continually feeds security information to politically connected venture capitalists, who, in turn, scour the private sector for start-ups that can produce new surveillance and related products. "We're a search engine," explains Bob Phanka, director of DeVenCI. According to the Bush vision, the role of government is merely to raise the money necessary to launch the new war market, then buy the best products that emerge out of that creative cauldron, encouraging industry to even greater innovation. In other words, the politicians create the demand, and the private sector supplies all manner of solutions -- a booming economy in homeland security and twenty-first-century warfare entirely underwritten by taxpayer dollars.
[]
Part of the problem is that the disaster economy sneaked up on us. In the eighties and nineties, new economies announced themselves with great pride and fanfare. The tech bubble in particular set a precedent for a new ownership class inspiring deafening levels of hype -- endless media lifestyle profiles of dashing young CEOs beside their private jets, their remote-controlled yachts, their idyllic Seattle mountainside homes.
That kind of wealth is being generated by the disaster complex today, though we rarely hear about it. According to a 2006 study, "Since the 'War on Terror' began, the CEOs of the top 34 defense contractors have enjoyed average pay levels that are double the amounts they received during the four years leading up to 9/22." While these CEOs saw their compensation go up an average of 108 percent between 2001 and 2005, chief executives at other large American companies averaged only 6 percent over the same period.
In 2003, Klein reports that the Bush administration doled out $327 billion in private contracts, "nearly 40 cents of every discretionary dollar." Given the fact that so many of these contracts have been awarded in non-competitive situations with incentives built in to spend as much as possible with virtually no penalties or oversight, those who want to chide Klein for not raising her pom-poms higher and acknowledging the benefits of free market capitalism would do better to note that none of the inherent checks and balances of a truly "free market" are in place here. Rigging the system to give as much money away to your buddies as possible -- to the exclusion of those who could possibly do better for cheaper -- would more accurately be described as "organized crime."
Reading the book I was struck with the impression that if we are lucky enough never to have to utter the words "President Giuliani" and don't have to spend the ensuing years trying to keep the Middle East from being reduced to a sheet of glass, these are the corporate-friendly forces of globalization that we're going to have to be fighting in order to stem the transfer of wealth in this country into the hands of a few elites while more continue to drop below the poverty line. It's an extraordinary perceptive and influential book that changed the way I look at politics and the world, and it does end on a hopeful note -- eventually the shock wears off and people do start fighting back. I'm looking forward to that impulse gathering momentum within American populist politics as we anticipate the 2008 election and beyond.
Please welcome to the FDL Book Salon Naomi Klein.
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Thank you so much for being here today. I found your book fascinating, disturbing, and very very helpful.
Naomi!
I’m really looking forward to this discussion, and I’m thrilled to be here.
Welcome, Naomi.
It’s a fascinating book and has provoked a lot of discussion within our community already. We’re delighted to have you here today.
Hi, Naomi, thank you for coming.
This past week I watched the DVD for “Children of Men”. I liked the film so much that I watched all of the extra DVD features and found that you were part of a very thought-provoking discussion there.
One of the things you said really struck me, that our culture of consumption is like a drug addict that can only think about its next fix, with no thought or responsibility concerning the consequences of its actions. In light of what is happening with the credit industry, the sub-prime meltdown, and the collapse of the dollar, I was wondering if you would like to expand upon those remarks.
Thank you again for being here.
Welcome Ms. Klein.
I bought the book only at noon today, so had to make the most of my prep time. Looking over the chapter titles, I decided to read the last 2.
I find the Israel example chilling. Israel seems chastened by nothing and more than ever determined to go along the same course, with no effective opposition.
You ended with some hopefulness from Latin America. But the rest of the world is just in the nascent stages of the shock-enduced transformation, n’est pas?
Naomi,
Thanks for you amazing book and hard work.
Do you think we will ever be able to retrieve the assets we have lost to the Bush crime family?
Naomi, welcome!
It’s no exaggeration to say this book significantly expanded my political insight and thinking, more than any other single work or experience has done in a couple of years at least.
Hi Naomi, I just started reading your book and what I’m getting from it already is that it seems these people will not stop at any cost until they fully reverse all of FDR’s New Deal programs. How do we ultimately stop this from occuring and ultimately who is the next “FDR” to lead us out of this mess?
P.S. Thought you were great on Real Time with Bill Maher.
TRex @ 5
I have a quote in the book from William Browder, a US money manager. He says “There’s a certain chemical that gets released in your stomach when you make ten times your money. And it’s addictive.” He was talking about how much fun it was to be in Poland during the so-called “shock therapy” period. The quest for that high is what fuels our economy and it’s important to understand that you can’t get the fix from the day to day incremental growth of capitalism — your need a new frontier. That’s what Eastern Europe offered after the collapse of communism. It’s what the Internet offered in the nineties — a virtual frontier. And it’s what the privatization frenzy going today in Iraq offers, with a key difference: what is being devoured is the U.S. military and the U.S. government itself. It’s a kind of cannibalism because the devouring of the core of the state is obviously incredibly dangerous, but the short term growth is addictive — that chemical is definitely being released.
It was interesting to read the book and reflect on the fact that one of the “benchmarks” for the Iraqi government was “privatization” of the oil industry — a plan put forward by Steny Hoyer and the GOP when they undermined timetables for withdrawal in the supplemental.
It’s definitely got its talons into the leadership of both parties.
We’ve had Rajiv Chandrasekaran here on the book salon and spoken much about how privatization in Iraq has been such a priority for this administration — and so horribly bungled.
I’ll type in several random Qs and you can answer them or not as time & your druthers permit.
1. Isn’t shock a funciton of any visionary change, regardless of whether it is left or right? Mao & Pol Pot come to mind. Why, then, is it disaster capitalism rather than disaster transformationalism?
2. I did not see you use the word fascism in the sections I read, but much of what you describe sounds like textbook fascism. For example, the socialization of costs and the privatization of benefits.
3. Where does the U.S. stand in its adjustment to 9/11 shock? Polls showing W & war disapproval at 70% suggest we’re getting over it (until W bombs Iran), but Rudy’s popularity suggests the reverse.
Hello Naomi,
I’m about two-thirds of the way through your book, so apologies if I ask a question that you cover in the last third.
But the question that’s been preoccupying my mind is if FDR’s New Deal, and equivalent redistributive socio-economic policies, were galvanised by the threat of communist revolution, what in today’s world, with the collapse of communism, can provide a similar counterweight?
Hi Naomi! Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this book! You make international macro-economics read like a Jason Bourne movie which is no easy feat! I read your book cover to cover in 2 long days a few days after it came out.
A question: I wonder if you could comment a bit on how our side got beat? You do a great job of showing how the University of Chicago, the CIA, and the Ford Foundation worked together to get Milton Friedman-inspired economics implemented in Latin America (and later in other countries).
But where was our side? Where was the AFL-CIO? Democratic Party? Progressive foundations? Progressive activists? Was our side lost in identity politics? Reeling from the loss of JFK, RFK, and MLK and too scared to speak up? Checked out in the counter culture? Or were we just not paying sufficient attention and got beat by those who were better funded (which is often the case) and better organized (which does not have to be the case).
Again thank you so much for your brilliant work!!!
Hi Naomi! I am a big fan of your work, and I have read practically everything that you have written. I want to ask you about how you think societies should be organized.
I have noticed that you, like Chomsky, see much potential in an anarcho-syndicalist form of organization…
Welcome to FDL, Naomi! I’ve been reading your book for the last month — it’s a difficult read in some ways simply because I become so infuriated with each chapter I have to stop. But the amount of information you have in here and the connections you draw, particularly back to the Chicagoan economists — which I knew nothing about — is just amazing.
Seems like there’s such a thing as crimes of economics, and Friedman at the top of it. I am beyond infuriated at that.
The other thing that raised the hair on my head was Blackwater. I’ve been agitating against the California outpost they want to put together for some time now, but in reading your book, it’s clear to me how they got started in the first place and why, and that it is absolutely imperative that we do not allow them and their ilk to grow any further.
RFK Action Front@14
Great Q
Funny, there’s a chemical released in my stomach that comes from knowing that these kinds of thrill-seekers are driving the country and the rest of us are just strapped in for the ride.
Ms. Klein,
Perhaps you know of it already, but I thought you might be interested in a little nugget where the “disaster preparations” are presently underway. The Heritage Foundation recently released a report on the economic consequences of an attack on Iran.
They concluded, after conducting a mock wargame, that the consequences would be severe, unless certain actions were taken:
Sounds dubious already? The specific actions they recommended were:
-Elimination of regulations on fuel efficiency, elimination of the Clean Air Act, and the Jones act
-Opening ANWAR and the Gulf of Mexico to drilling
-Increased defense spending
-End ethanol tariffs
-Resist any rise in the fuel tax
If those don’t look like a far-right wish list, I don’t know what one looks like.
Naturally, none of those are in fact likely to have much effect on oil prices or supply should an attack on Iran happen. But that’s not the point, now is it?
Hi Naomi,
Thanks for another great book. Wondering what you think about the current sub prime debacle? Is this a shock that they will somehow be able to turn to their advantage? If so, how - and where should we be looking for the signs?
Jane Hamsher @ 11
Like making it illegal to save seeds for next years crops so that Big Ag can provide G M seeds.
eCAHNomics @ 6
The Israel chapter is meant to serve as a warning about what happens when a society loses its economic incentive for peace. The same is happening in the U.S., with what I call the Disaster Capitalism Complex - the rapidly expanding sector of the U.S. economy that benefits directly from war and climate crisis.
It’s true that Latin America is ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to shock resistance, but it also had a head start as the first laboratory for these policies in the 1970s. I think there is reason to hope that resistance to shock tactics is growing in the U.S. - people are not buying the Iran scare tactics as readily, and that’s a very good sign.
Ian @ 20
I was wondering the same thing.
Welcome Naomi, I may never look at any disaster the way I used to since reading this book. An excellent follow up for those of us at FDL who have read both Naomi Wolf and You this month.
Do you think the current crisis in Pakistan is in part the latest focus of the Shock Doctrine crowd?
Naomi,
I’d like to prompt you to say anything you may wish to observe about the ways your work has been received, distorted or ignored by reviewers, and by the business press.
I’d also like to ask how the corporate social responsibility types in the U. S. have received your book. Any invitations to speak at HBS?
Naomi Klein @ 22
You know, it occurs to me that some of the people in this country best positioned to understand the effects of these things would be… those who immigrated here from south America. *ahem*
Hi, Naomi – I was fascinated by your book. It felt like I was looking at past events through a different facet of a prism – the same things we’ve read about but with a completely different perspective. So much of it rang true to me. I also listen to the news with my ears tuned differently than before I read your book – listening to Bush talk about Cuba, for instance, sounds like there’s plenty of prep going on behind the scenes anticipating Castro’s death as an opportunity to shock that country, or the recent news about FEMA/federal funding of the reconstruction along the Mississippi coast that leaves so many of the poor displaced while the c*sin*s are rebuilt along the beachfront.
My question for you is about whether or not Friedman’s free market economic theories have become the conventional wisdom in all/most business schools? Are there universities where economic theories that focus on “mixed economies” are viewed favorably? I know there are private organizations (I’m trying to avoid the term “think tank”) where some of this is going on but it seems like we need to send a whole new bunch of MBAs into the world to really change what’s been going on for the last 30 years. The final chapter of your book is hopeful in the sense that it is possible to recover from the shock of Friedman’s free market debacles, but wouldn’t it be better to avoid such devastating policies in the first place? I’m very interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks for taking time out of your weekend!
We complain here in the US about the effect of NAFTA and other free trade programs. I think that effects on the economies of the other countries involved in often devastating to the poorer folks. These programs seem to only benefit the upper classes of the countries involved. It is kind of like No Child Left Behind screwing up public education so badly that people start opting for privatization.
Welcome Naomi!
I’m fascinated by the book and so glad you are here to chat with us.
Welcome Naomi!
I’ve listened to your book three times now and must say that your book really ties together all of the other Iraq war books out there as well as Naomi Wolf’s book about creeping fascism, which is really corporatism, in America.
I’ve always thought that the resulting “chaos” in Iraq was really a part of the plan and not just incompetence.
We only need to look at Bush’s actions and not his fear-based words to see that if he were really waging a “war on terror” then the border would have been closed on September 12. Instead, new high tech companies were brought in to replace TSA and spend millions of tax payer dollars to outsource the security apparatus. Everything was outsourced to cronies. You mention the hollowing out of government. It fits perfectly to have a puppet at the helm if that’s the goal.
Are we at a tipping point? On your book tour have you seen people get the “a ha!” from your book?
Also, can you talk a little about Blackwater and the San Deigo fires, privatization of firefighting?
Thanks!! Great book!
Hello, Ms. Klein. I’ve been following your work for several years now.
Forgive me if you’ve already addressed this question, but I can’t help but make the comparison between the wall separating the Palestinians from the Israelis and the current demand for a wall along the Mexican border with the U.S.
This summer, I worked for a senator during the height of the immigration bill debate, and I received MANY angry phone calls about “illegals.” I can’t help but extrapolate several themes from your book onto this phenomenon, so I have two questions, that seem to me to be contradictory.
Is the rising backlash against Mexican workers similar to the nativism you wrote about in Indonesia regarding the Chinese, a sort of scapegoating immigrants for economic woes?
Also, the “fence” or “wall” on the U.S.-Mexico border . . . is the United States becoming one of the “global green zones” you mentioned in Cuaron’s documentary?
Thank you very much.
In the three years since “Baghdad Year Zero” came out there has been a fair bit of mainstream reporting that has validated different elements of your story. (At the time I found a lot of skepticism - people who should have known better who were literally unwilling to believe that we were truly that clueless.) I know that the reception to the book has been chilly in the big media outlets (surprise!), but do you now find people at least conceding your basic narrative of the CPA fiasco in Iraq?
Naomi, I’ve just started the book, so my answer may lie ahead of me, but I am curious - why do you think so many politicians and businessmen are so anxious to change America. After reading Confessions of an Economic Hitman, I realized this has been going on for along time, and one can understand why a rapacious person would not mind going after South America, say, but why the US?
great to see Naomi here at the lake, I would like to quote Jane and then ask ms Klein here opinion on my comment;
it seems utterly impossible to me for “the patriot act” to be written in that short period of time and it has always seemed clear to me that act was written before 9/11, lying in wait to be unleashed
“the patriot act” is apparently plagiarized from Hitler’s “enabling act” and I have some serious problems with how well it is put together on such a supposedly small period of time
the implications are of course frightening, that they had “the patriot act” ready because they knew they would be able to get it passed in the near future
so I would like Naomi’s opinion, do you think it’s possible to put together “the patriot act” in the few short weeks after we were attacked that they claim this act to have been written?
and sorry for the run on sentences
Naomi,
Given the history of the Chicago School thugs and their history of escalation of shock in order to maintain control of democracies they subvert, and assuming we do see more resistance to the disaster industrial complex and its various con games domestically, what do you imagine we might see as the right wing econothugs fight to maintain their grip of US policy?
Hi Naomi, I was wondering if you heard of Tatyana Koryagina who was an economic adviser to Vladimir putin who had predicted a catastrophic event in teh united states that would cause the collapse of the dollar. She had recommended to Duma to get rid of the dollar as well, this was apparently before the WTC event. She did an interview early 2001 and had predicted the event to occur in August. I saw her name in various articles while searching in Factiva. I first saw it in Newsmax but then looked around and found her in other websites (an example: http://www.cooperativeresearch.....helpneeded)
Pachacutec @ 25
The business press has been really funny.
I also like to peruse them at times. There’s a kind of brutal honesty — they often don’t even bother to coat their unapologetic self-interest with political correctness — that is revealing.
Of course you have to listen to all the delusional bullshit too, but that’s just part of the package.
Ms. Klein, thank you for joining us at FDL today. At the risk of repeating what others in this thread said before, your book simply blew my mind open. The Shock Doctrine tied up all the loose threads I’ve had in my head about the “free trade” controversy and brought alot of clarity. Now that I know what’s really going on, I’m seriously pissed.
My question: what can citizen activists do to stop the, it seems, growing privatization of America, apart from voting for candidates who oppose free trade policies?
Bentley Stanforth III @ 13
A very good question. But it’s also worth remembering that FDR’s New Deal was itself a response to crisis - the crisis of the stock market crash of 1929, that led so many to question wild west capitalism.
The so-called “free market” is in crisis today - we see it with sub-prime, as well as with the massive disillusionment with the Bush Administration. Even Greenspan warns in his book that people are losing faith in market fundamentalism.
This is a moment for the left/progressives to propose our vision with real confidence and without apologies. We shouldn’t be afraid to be angry at grotesque injustice, and we need to stop being apologetic about believing in universal human rights and universal health care. The right is in crisis, but I worry that the response from too many of us is simply kicking them while they are down. That doesn’t inspire.
Great intro, Jane. Naomi, I must buy the book, I’ve seen many of your interviews and can’t wait to get the whole story, as depressing as it all is.
I think the corporate nature of this threat to our Democracy is precisely why we’ll hear as little as possible about it in the MSM.
If this obstacle can be overcome between now and next year’s election the American public might finally wake up to the actual onerous nature of conservative politics.
Thanks for you do, and everyone here at FDL for the daily doses of sanity these last years.
Who can lead this charge and is that individual running for President this go around?
ETA: I know who I think that person is, but we all seem to disagree about it. What are your thoughts?
One more quick question- I missed your appearance at CUNY in NYC on Friday, will you be making any more appearances in the northeast soon?
Mike @ 9
Looking for political saviors isn’t going to cut it. The U.S. electoral system is rigged to prevent that from happening, no matter how good and honest the candidates. It starts with campaign finance reform, and then we go from there.
Hear, hear!!
But if electoral politics isn’t the answer and no one in Congress wants to effect REAL finacial reform, where does that leave us?
Ms. Klein,
Though I have not read the book, I have read the “Harper’s” article derived from it. I am on the waiting list at my library (it being a good sign that there is a waiting list).
Disaster capitalism seems like the perfect beast. We are now at a point where our government is essentially driven and supported by the interests of commerce and many commercial interests are dependent on the flow of money from the government.
My question is: where do we individual citizens fit in? Other than the ballot box (a battleground of dubious impartiality), what can we do? At least in the case you put forward in “No Logo”, I felt that I could enact my own changes of behavior that could possibly have some lasting impact. I don’t see that in disaster capitalism.
Perhaps there is more in your book and when I read it I will find out.
Thanks for taking the time to chat with us.
Naomi,
Thank you so much for being here.
My name is John and I am a journalism student at Michigan State University. One of the largest effects on anyones life is the shared exchange of information through news outlets and entertainment. Because of the blending of the two, I believe that my generation has become numb to the idea of shock in general. It hurts so much to see my campus empty of protest or demonstration of our disappointment, because its members will always opt for a beer can instead of a news broadcast.
But I feel that the way was paved with the generation before us , with tales of debauchery on college campus’s, of it being ‘The Best 4 Years’ of ones life. Only, our parents never got down to telling us that it was the change these campuses instilled in the face of the nation that made it so good, and the celebrations afterwards. My generation seems to think its only the celebrations that count, and standing for anything is out of the ordinary.
Now those times of freedom and progress are looked at in embarrassment by your generation, because everyone got jobs and became a part of the economy. Excuse me for venting, but I’ve wanted to say that for a while. I guess my question is, how can the media recapture the interest of our generation and future generations without twisting its purpose?
Naomi Klein @ 43
So it seems like we have to get the money, the hookers and the closet out of congress. A big order, no? :)
eCAHNomics @ 12
1) I wrote this book because the far left has been held accountable for the crimes and abuses required to impose its utopian, year-zero fantasies. The far right has not. And when criminals are not held accountable for their crimes, they re-offend. It’s worth remembering that Paul Bremer was Kissinger’s right hand man during the coup in Chile in 1973.
2) I prefer the world “corporatism” to “fascism” to describe this phase. I think we are teetering but not there yet and it’s one of those words that needs to be used sparingly to preserve its meaning.
3) see earlier posts.
Hiya, JH and NK! “Austrian” economist and economic historian Murray Newton Rothbard, one of whose disciples is a presidential candidate in this cycle, named, Ron Paul, considered Milton Friedman to being not a free marketeer, but merely a technical advisor to the State apparatus. Friedman spoke a blue streak about free market capitalism, but never got around to explaining what he meant by capitalism. What he meant by the latter was state capitalism, i.e., the kind of capitalism which attaches highly qualified definitions of property and ownership that tend to leave out the individual.
His son, David Friedman, also a free marketeer, winds up with radically different views from his late father, with radically different outcomes. Ron Paul is more in line with the latter Friedman, than the former. Any comments?
Would you care to contrast or compare Milton Friedman’s economic philosophy with that of NAFTA, CAFTA, the WTO and the DLC?
Naomi Klein @ 44
It’s up to us!
“Do you want to tackle climate change as much as Dick Cheney wants Kazakhstan’s oil? Do you?” -Naomi Klein
Naomi,
I’m wondering what we can do to actually bring about change in our economic system. I mean the lead Democratic candidates have proposed some measures, but they are, to say the least, modest. For example, while they want to repeal the Bush tax cuts, as Robert Reich points out, it would just raise taxes from 35% to 38%. How do we actually change the system when no major political figure has the courage to stand up?
While reading I also thought about why there is no call from the Bushies for a draft or any sacrifice whatsoever by Americans. “Go shopping!” says Chimpy. $4.00 gallon gas? Let me open up military airspace so you will continue to fly!
For disaster capitalism to thrive we can’t have a draft, we need to outsource everything to Fluor, Blackwater, Custer Battles, etc.
And the more this occurs, the more normal it seems to Americans. After all, many Americans already outsource many of their jobs to outsiders (house cleaning, babysitting, cooking, gardening, etc) so it seems familiar and inocuous.
BTW, I meant 35% to 38% on the wealthiest 1%
Okay, it is the grassroots that will “save” us. But how do the grassroots get organized once they get interested once they decide they care?
Do you see what I mean? It is one thing to say it is up to us, but my experience with progressive roots movements is an exercise in herding cats. There needs to be SOMEONE who will take the heat and rally the troops.
It doesn’t help that those who are trying often wind up putting out fires and biting at one another over policy and ideological differences.
I don’t have a lot of hope for “us”, if we can’t A - get organized, and B - stop infighting.
Any thoughts?
I’m about half-way through the book and it’s been a wonderful read so far. I wonder if the analysis in the book (or elsewhere) is ever related to the concepts used by Michel Foucault.
The torture techniques that remake people remind me a lot of the concept of ‘docile bodies’ in Discipline and Punish.
Because the Shock Doctrine has a dimension focused on the individual and another focused on population it reminds of Foucault’s Governmentality. This concept seem even more relevant when states of emergencies are declared to enact legislation outside of democratic processes.
Thank you for the book. It’s very thought provoking and everyone in my book club thinks it’s one of the most important books they’ve ever read.
Jane Hamsher @ 23
You bet they can - and will - use it. In wealthy countries, economic crises have been the primary catalysts for The Shock Doctrine, most notably the “debt crisis” hysteria of the early to mid nineties. As sub-prime turns into a sustained downturn, it will be used as further “proof” that the U.S. can’t afford Social Security and that its public school system is hampering U.S. competition and needs to be privatized.
Predicting how the next shock will be used isn’t rocket science — just read the latest policy papers from the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation - or save time and just read comment 19, where Profesor Foland does us a service by previewing the policy package planned to accompany an attack on Iran.
Hello, Naomi.
As I’m sure you know, a lot of Canadians are struggling with some shock this weekend after two awful stories finally tumbled out into the msm in spite of efforts to suppress them, the news of our complicity with torture in Afghanistan (captured forever by that request from a member of our inspections team, who reacted to walking through other people’s blood and feces by asking for better boots) and then the heart-breaking video of the RCMP’s lethal assault on a bewildered Mr Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport.
What worries me is the people who are not shocked, and maybe we should start with the RCMP and the nice lady who asked for better boots. Where did those fresh-faced kids get the notion that they were doing the right thing by enforcing laws against ordinary citizens instead of protecting ordinary citizens?
This has been a horribly sad week in this country. We are lucky to have at least a couple of major newspapers and the CBC willing to force the truth about these stories, but the government is equivocating, and one feels the same pressure here that Americans worry over, that no matter how terrible the wrong that has been done, it is somehow reasonable to split the difference, and people who argue from principle are DFH … I mean, isn’t that what is happening?
Lefty bloggers here are trying to keep both stories rolling through the aggregators. Hearts have been broken.
Naomi Klein @ 50
That really says so much right there, doesn’t it.
Naomi, can you comment on the ways Venezuela is functioning as a challenge to the shock doctors, and on continuing political trends in latin America, given the elections in the region since the publication of your book? Do you see any consistent trends emerging post shock?
Naomi, welcome - and thanks for The Shock Doctrine (and your other incisive works - No Logo changed my life).
Thanks also for the hope you bring us in the chapter “The Shock Wears Off”. I love the fact the chapter - and the book - closes with NOLA as example of American resistance to the Shock Doctrine.
Two days before Katrina hit NOLA, some of the same SF organizers and medics who were in Seattle ‘99 and/or RNC ‘04 watched the Weather Channel and headed off to New Orleans.
Those medics (not me!), along with others, helped to start the Common Ground clinic, which became (and remains) a focal point of NOLA non-violent resistance to the Boys From Chicago and thier hired guns.
After Katrina and the Federal criminalization of disaster repsonse, I held my breath last weekend when We the People were told we were criminals if we helped save our Bay and the creatures within in.
The Feds criminalized local response to the oil spill fouling SF Bay, and the National Park Service Police even arrested the “leader” of a contingent who showed up on a fouled beach sans officals and started cleaning.
After watching the same Feds leave tens of thousands to cook in formaldehyde trailers months after the risks were public (and ignore the immediate warnings that the 911 dust would be incredibly toxic), I wondered if their “safety” excuse in the Bay Area would hold up.
Like a region known for stuffing their privates into cycling shorts and climbing harnesses couldn’t understand how to wear a Tyvek jumpsuit, gloves, and a respirator?
The thousands of voulnteers who went off to help Common Ground strip and rehab NOLA houses - and wore Tyvek doing it? They know something we don’t? Heck, hundreds of ‘em were from here.
Anyway, here in the SF Bay Area we’ve seen massive sustained citizen defiance of Federal authority.
Thousands of folks over widely distributed areas, defying arbitrary closures of public lands and thumbing their (gloved) noses at the criminalization of the commons and common concern for the community.
Nothing is worth a teaspoon of oil spilled on the waters.
Yet teh normalization of massive defiance to the Federal criminalization mutual assistanced and altruism leaves me very hopeful
As well as leaving us all with a stunning example of our power to peacefully defy the arbitrary use of Federal power to criminalize the commons and collective peaceful action.
If (when) your book goes to a third edition, I hope there are many more such examples.
In tthe meantime, do you have any observations on the SF Bay Area’s mass defiance of Federal crimnal sanctions?
Jane Hamsher @ 60
Gah! It’s the connections, isn’t it? I mean that was one of the primary things that struck me in Shock Doctrine: all the people who knew everyone else, in a bit ol’ trail leading straight back to Friedman (MHRIH)
I need a blueprint for everyone in the government, with a timeline showing who they knew when to make any sense of this… :-P
peanutbutter @ 64
Sure would help, wouldn’t it!
Naomi,
Thank you for your very important book!
I wish more people would read it! And I wish more newspapers would write about it.
Bob in HI
Yes, with a where-are-they now section so we can anticipate what’s up ahead.
peanutbutter @ 63
I would love to see someone put that together, easier now with wikipedia, etc. The conspiracies would just pop out at you!
We could start with Prescott Bush and Hitler and go from there…
valletta @ 30
Thanks for this extremely kind quote and to everyone else who has been so incredibly welcoming at FDL. I have been very heartened by the response to the book on the tour so far. It feels like a moment of genuine political possibility, in part because so many people know that what ails us can’t be fixed with one election. I’m finding that people are ready to talk about systems of power, and in my opinion that’s always good.
I wrote my last column on the California fires, privatized response, and Blackwater - which has been shamelessly using the terrible losses to try to build support for Blackwater West. The pitch from these companies is always the same: “the government is broken - I know I use to work there (and broke it). So pay me to save you.”
The column is called “Rapture Rescue 911″ and is posted just below the short film on my website: www.naomiklein.org. I’d also like to encourage everyone to visit www.shockdoctrine.org where my colleague Debra Levy has put hundreds of original source documents from the book online. She has also added a new feature called “disaster capitalism in the news” where we can stay on top of recent examples of The Shock Doctrine in action.
Laura Doty @ 66
What about a blueprint, i.e. what are the connections on the left that are going to reverse this?
Pachacutec @ 61
Unsurprisingly, I saw the teaser for CNN’s “This Week at War” this afternoon, asking the question “Is Hugo Chavez becoming the new Fidel Castro”?
The corporatist media is going to be the most difficult challenge for progressives to overcome, IMHO.
Naomi — thanks for all you do! I bought your book in the Ottawa Airport the day it came out, and I’ve been touting it ever since!
Thanks for a great book. I am about half way through it. The section on US complicity in the Chilean government in the 70’s makes one see Venezuela’s government in a new light. How can anyone expect Chauvez to allow a free-wheeling dissent to take place in his country when likely the CIA is funding it and orchestrating treason. Imagine how “free” things would be in the US if we had the level of interference in our democracy that Latin America has seen. This kind of tactic inhibits democracy. Of course, democracy is just semantics to these guys.
TRex @ 5
Hope this isn’t too off topic but maybe it’s the subject for a future book (hint, hint, Naomi) google The The Century of the Self and Edward Bernays
If the shock is to big well then won’t there be a counter reaction probably fast anf violent directed against the GOP, Corporations etc.
I liked America the way it used to be sure we needed national healthcare and more alternative energy.
But I have no wish to live in a dictatorship of Left or Right.
Given Bush’s failure’s at war, the economy, Subprime, Healthcare, Katrina etc.
I think he has created a shock that is too big and that it is already back firing on him. I would expect scapegoats like immigrants and minorites to have 30% polling numbers.
I would not Bush the expert, privateization, change, saviour to be at 30% if he expects to convice us that his plans will work this time.
Bush probably can’t even reliy on a military takeover to get things done because the military is tainted by defeat in Iraq.
Chris @ 31
Great questions, Chris. I don’t think they are contradictory. The scapegoating of immigrants in the U.S. points to the urgency for progressive to address the current crisis of faith in the free market. Right now Lou Dobbs is filling that ideological vacuum, channeling the rage at job loss and “free trade” at immigrants. If we don’t fill the vacuum with hope in a different kind of economic system, it will be filled with more hate.
And yes, I see the fence as part of the Green Zoning of the U.S. - as well as a big part of the Disaster Capitalism Complex, since the contract for the “virtual fence” is worth $2.5 for Boeing, the largest DHS contract ever awarded. A piece of it goes to Elbit, an Israeli company that helped build the wall that turned Gaza into the open air prison it is today.
SteveNS @ 70
My guess is that the Middle East has sucked all the wind out of W & Vice, so that they can’t focus on Latin America. One of the reasons (besides all the others that NK enumerates) why Latin America is able to chart a different course.
Naomi, it seems in all the case studies you offered in the book, multinationals have relied on the extortion and coercive force of the World Bank and the IMF to force their will on countries in shock. Has the recent weakening of the World Bank through scandals weakened the hand of the corporatists in any meaningful way?
I guess I’m trying the calibrate the extent to which systems of power necessary to propel the shock agenda may be on the wane.
Hello Naomi
I finished your book last week and would like to say thank you for the years of research that it took and I think will worth it. I filled in alot blanks spots I’ve wondered about in the last 30 years.
I was wondering if you have read this person on line book? They would complement one another.
http://www.dunwalke.com/
Thanks again for the your time
jo6pac
Walls. I’ve been thinking of them as signs of failure of policy. Silly me. Their signs of success for the only people who count.
My fear is that the privatization of the country, this “disaster capitalism”, is so beyond restoration….[the old “the horses are already out of the barn” syndrome], that it will take monumental efforts to right the wrongs, if that’s even possible.
Are we so far behind the demented actions of the Friedman bunch that we, who care, stand little chance of success?
As an aside, my husband’s nephew (Scott Carpenter) was Paul Bremer’s right hand man in Iraq. Guess what? He is currently building a big, new home in Maine….courtesy of disaster capitalism.
Naomi, thank you for your research and work.
Do you have any idea on how to counter these forces at play?
The EU has CorpWatch. What other International unions and coalitions are there that we can get involved in to counter neocon polices with humanitarian polices?
Disaster capitalism is the way this administration (with help from the previous one) is bankrupting democracy and sending us into a neo-aristocracy.
Scott Carpenter… where is that name from? All I am coming up with is astronauts *blushing for not knowing *
oops - flubbed my edit. The citation above is from LA TImes, link here.
My apologies (but not my first-born) to the copyright monster.
TRex @ 5
I just re-watched Y Tu Mama Tambi*n on DVD and find it’s really a brilliant meditation on some of the trends discussed in Shock Doctrine (not the homoerotic threesome although that’s interesting too — but rather the socio-political commentary that is going on in the background and in the narration). In many ways, Y Tu Mama Tambien captures the innocence and edenic quality of Mexico that is being lost to globalization and the soul crushing domination of multinational corporations.
Naomi,
Thank you for this book. Ever since the 2000 elections there were so many events that happened that I did not see coming and could not contextualize.
They jsut seemed to come out of left feild. Some, Like Cheney’s drawing a line in the sand over the identity of the members of his energy task force, seemed illogical, even silly.
Reading your book, suddenly so many of these events no longer seem random, to the contrary, I now see a pattern and logic that is eery in it’s precision.
Hopefully, this new pattern recognition might lead to the ability to anticipate and prepare to thwart the worst of what might come.
To be forwarned is to be forarmed; so I thank you for the warnings.
What’s with the broad hints of military fascism in Vancouver, speaking of Ottawa? There you have three RCMP cops having tasered and knocked down a traveler from Poland for no apparent reason, according to a witness whose videos were finally released sometime last week, by the RCMP, after a lawsuit was filed, over a month after they had killed the traveler. It appeared in the video that the force of their intervention after the tasering caused the victim’s death. Where did Canadians pick up such brutal techniques for being a live and paying airline customer? Does this prove that BC is more American than Canadian?
Hi Naomi,
I’m so glad that you wrote The Shock Doctrine. It’s about time someone identified the most destructive ideology of our time. You have so successfully highlighted the current direction of capitalism in the world, and I want to ask you:
1) Are progressive values compatible with (any form of) capitalism, or should we instead work to promote anti-capitalist alternatives?
2) Also, what are your thoughts on labeling movements. Should all progressives unite under one banner, or should we take pride in our ability to act in a decentralized network of focus groups?
looseheadprop @ 83
LHP -
Great comments! I think that the increasing means of sharing knowledge such as through blogs like this will help spread the word further than in the past.
looseheadprop @ 84
That is very true, LHP. I think that is why the book is so affecting — every page you turn seems to weave yet another tendril of heretofore seemingly nonsensical actions into the tapestry. It builds upon books like “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” to provide a new context for considering global and political events.
One of the things Shock Doctrine really did for me was disabuse me of the notion that Bush is stupid. There was and has been a method behind everything we’ve often labeled from the left as bumbling.
This idiocy meme is actually a barrier to helping people understand what is going on, in the same way the incompetence dodge on Iraq propelled by all the foreign policy elites (right and left) is a feint and a lie.
Jane Hamsher @ 88
Certainly, validates the ‘Vast Right Wing Conspiracy’ theory…
Naomi Klein @ 74
“The narrow upper way….leapt swiftly down by stair and steep path to meet he main road under the frowning walls close to the Tower-gate.
As he gazed at it suddenly Sam understood, almost with a shock, that this stonghold had been built not to keep enemies out of Mordor, but to keep them in”
[JRR Tolkien, The Return of The King, [paper] pp 880, renewed 1983, Houghton Mifflin, NY, NY]
Ms. Klein, have you had any offers to option The Shock Doctrine into a documentary? Thanks again for everyone’s great questions–this place is so damned smart!–and your answers Ms. Klein.
D.M. Slaughter @ 38
cope @ 46
Peter Zerzan @ 53
There have been a lot of good questions along these lines and I guess I avoid them because they require more indepth answers than frantic speed typing allows. But I don’t want to gloss over it so here is an admittedly paltry start…
Coming back to an earlier thread, Latin America is furthest ahead when it comes to developing alternatives to this vicious economic model, so it would seem to make sense to look south for ideas. A few years ago I helped make a documentary called The Take. It is about groups of laid-off workers in Argentina who decide to occupy their shuttered workplaces and turn them into democratic cooperatives. More broadly, I think the lesson of what is happening in Latin America is that the first stage is building strong and militant social movements, that have the power to keep politicians honest once they take office.
I was really encouraged by the U.S. Social Forum in Atlanta this year. I feel like out of that space, and the groups that participated, the alternative we are looking for is beginning to emerge.
I was wondering if you heard of Tatyana Koryagina who was an economic adviser to Vladimir putin who had predicted a catastrophic event in teh united states that would cause the collapse of the dollar. She had recommended to Duma to get rid of the dollar as well, this was apparently before the WTC event. She did an interview early 2001 and had predicted the event to occur in August. I saw her name in various articles while searching in Factiva. I first saw it in Newsmax but then looked around and found her in other websites (an example: http://www.cooperativeresearch.....helpneeded)
Chris @ 42
I’m Naomi’s research assistant and I help administer her websites. Chris, it’s not too late to see Naomi — she will be returning to New York City next Wednesday, November 28, where she will be speaking at NYU.
And those of you outside of the NYC area may also be able to catch Naomi in the next few weeks. She will be speaking in London (Ontario), Hamilton, Miami, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Colorado and Portland, Oregon. You can see details for all of these events at www.shockdoctrine.com/tour. We’re constantly updating Naomi’s tour schedule, so please check it occasionally if your town isn’t listed.
Naomi also has a monthly e-newsletter that lists her tour dates and media appearances, and also features her recent articles. You can sign up for Naomi’s monthly newsletter at www.naomiklein.org or www.shockdoctrine.com.
Two of my favorite quotes from Shock Doctrine:
“Despite the mystique that surrounds it, and the understandable impulse to treat it as aberrant behavior beyond politics, torture is not particularly complicated or mysterious. A tool of the crudest kind of coercion, it crops up with great predictability whenever a local despot or a foreign occupier lacks the consent needed to rule: Marcos in the Philippines, the shah in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, the French in Algeria, the Israelis in the occupied territories, the U.S. in Iraq and Afghanistan. The list could stretch on and on. The widespread abuse of prisoners is a virtually foolproof indication that politicians are trying to impose a system — whether political, religious or economic — that is rejected by large numbers of the people they are ruling. Just as ecologists define ecosystems by the presence of certain ‘indicator species’ of plants and birds, torture is an indicator species of a regime that is engaged in a deeply anti-democratic project, even if that regime happens to have come to power through elections.” (p. 125)
“Everywhere the Chicago School crusade has triumphed, it has created a permanent underclass of between 25 and 60 percent of the population. It is always a form of war.” (p. 405)
Naomi — Thanks so much for putting all of this together in one coherent whole. The impact of having all of this to piece through at once is substantial — and something that I’d love to see discussed in a more general public context. (Although, frankly, I’m not exactly holding my breath given the dearth of substantive questions thus far during Presidential debates…)
Pach at 89 — That is a very important point, and a mistake I catch myself making in my own writing from time to time. While I do think some of the policies are moronic, it is apparent that they are designed to be so to denegrate governmental functions to some extent. It’s the Norquist effect writ large, except they are drowning all of us in the same fetid bathtub. When you don’t believe in government, you do very little to make it work properly. And we have seen, over and over, that anything which did not elevate the unilateral executive or military power was deliberately shoved to the side.
I keep thinking about the Douglas Brinkley quote regarding Katrina: that inaction is a policy choice as much as action can be. We have seen inaction as a governmental philosophy wholesale with the Bush Administration, over and over again.
skdadl @ 59
I also feel brokenhearted by these two stories of Canadian authorities shocking, or being complicit in shocking, “foreign” bodies. I’m writing something about it right now. Watching the awful video from the Vancouver airport, it is striking how much easier it is to shock someone than to talk to them, especially if they happen not to speak English. And that’s the appeal of all shock approaches, whether economic or physical - the promise of a short cut to obedience.
Naomi Klein @ 39
The ever-unapologietic Allen Greenspan!
Naomi Klein,
I have enjoyed reading your essays over the years, and look forward to reading _The Shock Doctrine_. I was afraid when you disappeared - I take it, to write the book - that you’d somehow been intimidated into becoming silent.
Is there a way to have your strong TV presence become more frequent than your appearances on Democracy Now, etc? Has the MSM finally accepted you on the level your competence and pertinence Deserve?
What are your next plans? If you ever come to Alaska, many will warmly welcome you. We even understand Canadian…
Great Book! Great documentation supporting each indictment.
Here’s a link to a video about the Carlyle Group that illustrates in living color your analysis and references to Carlyle. (first 2 minutes in German, then switches to English)
http://video.google.com/videop.....6220336237
Pachacutec @ 89
EXACTLY.
Very interesting.
We’re often regarded with veiled derision by baby boomer new left lefties who see us as naive and intemperate, puerile purists. I sometimes wonder if their greatest fear is that we might in fact be part of a movement that succeeds where they themselves (cashed in and) failed.
D.M. Slaughter @ 92
I agree. It is damned smart. Imagine if my press interviews were like this…
Plans for a feature length documentary are well underway, but I can’t share too many details yet. I think the phrase is that we are “in talks.”
valletta @ 54
Great point.
Debra Levy @ 95
Debra, I took a quick peek at the work you did compiling links to resources on the new book’s website. What a wonderful job you did. Thank you so much. And, of course, thanks to Naomi for her paradigm shifting book. I had the pleasure of hearing her when she was at Politics and Prose in DC earlier.
sam @ 57
It’s true I was influenced by both texts by Foucault. I thought about quoting him directly, but I worried about being one of those people…
Naomi;
You have clearly delineated this nation’s descent into deliberate crisis. My own take is that the process actually began in the waning months of WWII.
Regarding the environmental ‘crisis’, Kirk Murphy in his post last evening, said that if Clinton becomes President we are ‘cooked’.
Would you venture to speculate as to how she might deal with, or more likely, not deal with the reality we all face owing to the ‘policies’ you have so ably made visible for all to see.
From the second blockquote in Jane’s post
Here’s their website from the Defense Technical Information Center
I don’t ever remember hearing of this, thanks for finding it Naomi
I don’t know what to say …… I’ve suspected this for awhile - of course you caught on much faster than I did, Naomi with Baghdad Year Zero - but I mostly thought it was incompetence until about a year ago when I think I caught up to you.
The parasites are totally selling us out
Hah!
Just a hint of the veiled razor sharp wit that seeps out around the edges of your writing.
I’ll bet you’re actually a hoot. I wanna sit with you at the wedding.
Naomi Klein @ 103
Awesome! Frontline? Bill Moyers? *g*
Naomi-
I don’t remember the exact quote, and I’ve lent my copy of your book to a friend, so I can’t search it own. I remember you making a reference to the Tsunami “relief,” and how donations made were ultimately used to privatize the beaches in Sri Lanka. Could you expand on that? Forgive me if I remember that piece of information incorrectly.
Naomi, any thought about the biggest shock of them all, the suspension of elections in ‘08 due to some “attack” or emergency?
Yes, I’m wearing tin-foil…
Dear Naomi, greetings from Sweden!
Our foreign affairs minister owns a lot of oil and gas stock in disaster and conflict areas such as Sudan. This is no doubt an issue in Swedish media, however, of no consequence and not really put into context. (And this is the same man who as prime minister made a serious attempt at disaster economy in 1993. )
It is amazing to see how European media is loving your book so much and still not paying any attention to what is going right here.
Have you been in touch with any European or Scandinavian media who are looking into these issues (European disaster capitalism) more seriously and would you recommend any?
By the way, you recently cancelled your trip to Sweden - any new date set yet?
Naomi, I have to confess that I have not gotten to the last few chapters yet. (I found I had to ration the amount I read on any given day, so I wouldn’t spend te whole day in a ranting rage. Plus, I kept getting into really interesting discussions about your book during my daughter’s soccer days, which cut into my reading time)
So, forgive me if it’s in a part of the book I haven’t read yet, but how do we human rights/rule of law types get our own version of the “brick” ready to role out?
Bob in Hawai set up this great “priming the pump” wiki, so that we could be ready if impeachment was ever put back on the table, but do we need something more formal?
How much of the Chicago School’s success came from what seems to me like a careful grooming process that the right employs.
It’s not just economics, you see the grooming and incestuous hiring of lawyers withinthe Federalist Society. Some people become federal prosecutors because they want to make the world a better place and put bad uys in jail–they usually end up becoming “career” prosecutors or leave when they get caught speaking truth to power once too often.
But others, make a tour through DOJ to get their card punched, then they become under secretarty of something, then a judge, maybe do a tour through a major law firm sothey can pay off the mortgagae and abnk the kid’s college tutition, then back inside the Beltway as the Court of Appeals Judge or Cabinaet secretary. It all seems very orchestrated
I see it even in the big Bar Assocaitons. You just “know” that so and so is going to become president of this or chair of that, but the strings being pulled are usually unseen.
The left doesn’t seem to have this sort of farm team system going and we don’t seem to have an “idea bank” or “policy bank” built up.
BTW, my typos are the stuff of legends, please don’t be offended by the lack of clean up, but I wanted to get this posted before morning
Debra Levy @ 95
Thank you, Debra. You do a great job. There has been tremendous synergy between the book and the internet.
valletta @ 112
One word: Iran! 8-(
Hi Naomi,
I just saw your Shock Doctrine in Castillian in a shop window in northern Spain about two weeks ago. The book seems to have traveled. I am looking to obtain an English (or Hiberno-english) version soon. All the best…….
john in sacramento @ 109
blerg, they even have a hedge logo!
Naomi Klein @ 43
Hello Ms. Klein. I would like to thank you for book, although I haven’t finished reading it yet (chapter 10). I’ve found it incredibly insightful so far. I apologize in advance if you answered this question elsewhere. I’m relatively surprised that you mention campaign finance reform as a solution to the problem. Given the history of campaign finance reform (like McCain-Feingold) it seems that any election reform coming out of both parties will be severely handicapped and will further marginalize outside candidates instead of helping them. In my mind, the problem isn’t with specifics, it is with the election structure. One starts with an election reform, such as “Single Transferable Vote/Instant Runoff” as opposed to plurality then once the structure has changed, more meaningful election reforms can take place such as public funding of elections. I was curious if you had deep objections to structural changes in voting, too radical, impractical, won’t fix the problem, etc.
For background, I do feel the largest problem with elections currently is that the MSM effectively dictates who the two candidates are. And the reason for this is that perfectly rational people self-censor themselves in the voting booth. They do this because to make their vote count, they know that they have to vote for a candidate that they think has a chance of winning. Most people get this signal from the media. If we crack this nut, I think it will go along way towards reducing corporate media power. However, I could be wrong, and I look forward to your insight if you have the time. Thanks again for your work.
I entirely disagree.
I think Bush is an idiot. He is the perfect foil for the real brains behind him. All he needs to do is remember his lines and hit his mark.
I do believe he wanted to invade Iraq while he was running in 2000, but he HIMSELF could not have come up with a method to save his life. He needed people around and behind him and working in teh shadows.
Playing incompetent to avoid suspicion is one thing; actually being incompetent is another. I believe Bush is the latter and the people around him are the former.
Do you think the border fence is only to keep people out?
CTuttle @ 110
Hi there, I’m Avi, Naomi’s husband. I’m one of the people working on pulling together the team for a film version of The Shock Doctrine. We’ve had some interest from some tremendous directors, and are now in the process of pitching for funding.
I think it looks like the film will be a theatrical release initially, followed by DVD and TV - but I would love it if we could find a distributor who would let us release it online simultaneously…something we were able to break new ground on with the Shock Doctrine short
So here’s a shamelessly focus-group-ish question for those of you who have read the book: would you rather see a more historical film that focuses on the book’s alternative history of the last 4 decades, or would you rather see this as a background/prelude to an investigation of Disaster Capitalism unfolding in real time - like if we had started filming the privatized firefighting in California?
The Take was one of the most fascinating documentaries that I have ever seen. It not only helped me understand the plight of Argentine workers, but it really opened my eyes to the potential of businesses owned by the workers themselves. Are you (and your husband) going to continue making more documentaries? What are you going to focus on next?
EDIT: Well, it looks like Avi just answered my question. Thanks, Avi!
Bilbo @ 105
Thank you for these kind words, it’s so nice to hear feedback! I’m just finishing up the resources on the Asian tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, and they should be online tomorrow.
I’m very excited about the Katrina resource page in particular because it features fantastic critical reports on the failing reconstruction work, and I’ll also be uploading the meeting notes from the inspiring exchanges that occurred between the tsunami and Katrina survivors.
Naomi and I have designed the resource section to serve as a complement to the book, so after reading a particularly insightful chapter, you can turn to www.shockdoctrine.com/resources and find primary documents and illuminating reports to continue your exploration of the issues.
momly @ 118
I agree completely. Bush is a tool, a puppet, a Dauphin. And happy to play the part.
The reason he has no problem with giving only incompetent cronies positions of power is that he, himself, is the ultimate crony. He never earned one thing himself.
As Molly Ivins used to say, Bush was born on third base and thought he hit a triple. And he has no problem with that because I truly believe he is a sociopath. But that’s another book!
I’d love to see either (both, actually), but I’d bet the latter vehicle will get more eyes.
Naomi Klein @ 106
Well there is that.
Competence? Depends on who’s doing the measurement, according to what agenda.
If I were a shock master, I’d say Bush performed well above expectations, and now there are any number of new disasters (read: business opportunities) on the horizon. More war, climate change, fiscal collapse. Reason to live in hope! Not for nothing has the Bush family bought land in Central America over a huge aquifer. These people think generationally.
Bradley Jones @ 118
A sure-fire way is to force the TV/Radio stations to air all candidates advertising free of charge. Make their FCC licenses contingent upon it, thereby, reducing the costs dramatically for candidates, and, providing an equal playing field for all comers…
Ooooh, I would rather see it as a background/prelude to an investigation of Disaster Capitalism unfolding in real time. I think the film would also need to point back to certain points in history, but I believe it needs to focus on most recent events. JMHO. Keep up the great work Naomi…am reading No Logo at the moment!
Sounds like 2 films to me.
Avi Lewis @ 122
This, please, fwiw.
Pachacutec @ 89
I don’t see the contradiction. Bush can be an ignorant, stupid, psychopath and yet the outcomes that we see are driven by a plan and not incompetence. It seems that Bush can be guided by Cheney and others by manipulation of his ego and his sociopathic thought processes. How can a man that has record of screwing up everything he has been involved with, suddenly become smart. One of former Profs a Harvard came forward and said he was no different then, basically a stupid, self-involved bully.
eCAHNomics @ 131
sounds like it needs to be two films
hello Ms. Klein — major kudos for your piece last month in harpers on disaster capitalism! Sad as the news is it did my heart good to read something so right on the money. Can’t wait to read your book. thanks for tellin it like it is.
Avi, I think people will find it most accessible if you focus on a hook within the recent memory and experience of your American audience, then fill in anecdotes and references around the edges.
Shorter me, as one who writes and messages in this space at FDL: I think your option 2 will work better for you, from a marketing and persuasion perspective.
Sad, though, that we suck so much and are so uninterested in other people’s lives outside of the US.
eCAHNomics @ 130
*Nods in agreement* It’s ALL important!
Elliott @ 135
That’s what I meant-we want both of the above.
damn, missed it didn’t i. oh well.
Avi Lewis @ 122
Kinda a hybrid of both. I think the main body of the work has to be the historical context b/c it is when you see the same thing play out over and ver again, that you realize it’s not a fluke or something cherry picked uot fo context. But it would be great to end with one or two new case studies that were documented as they unfolded to demonstrate the pattern recognition techniques that can be gained from this book and the predictive abilites that we are struggling to acquire
Avi Lewis @ 122
Hi Avi — Personally speaking, I think the real time investigation might prove to be more galvanizing, and spurring people to action is desperately needed.
(And if you can somehow find the time to produce some more short-form documentaries and get them aired on the CBC, that’d be most excellent too.)
a href=”#comment-1104170″>Avi Lewis @ 122
we have to choose? i don’t want either diamonds or pearls - but i would love both of these.
Yes, I suppose competence is in the eye of the beholder *g* and as to hitting his mark, Bush is quite competent.
I just don’t think he came up with the ideas. He is - in all definitions of the word - a tool.
momly @ 119
I agree has Milton the Nazi’s or any of these jokers ideas about an economy ever worked in the long run?
Slave economies don’t compete well against ones where the workers are free and are of similar strength/technology levels.
Just wandered in. My iron law of markets is that there has never been a free market ever. The only question is who writes the rules and for whose benefit. Friedmanesque economics was always a con game. It was always about the “freedom” to be ripped off dabbed in a sauce of messianic fervor.
momly @ 134
Yes, please.
Pachacutec @ 89
valletta @ 125
Bush may be an idiot, but this is more symptom than cause.
I think that Pachacutec at 89 made a really crucial point. And I think we should all make a rule that whenever anyone uses the word “incompetence” to describe the Bush record, they also have to quote the rise in Halliburton and Lockheed’s stock prices, as well as the record pay outs for The Carlyle Group.
Didn’t Bush once call the wealthiest people in America “my base”? I don’t think his base has been suffering from his “incompetence.” And when the U.S. economy implodes, they’ll all just take refuge in the ultimate Green Zone: Dubai. Okay, I shouldn’t indulge like this, but sometimes it’s hard to stay calm.
and she is soooo right about campaign finance reform being the beginning. i mean, take the money out of politics, or at least level the plaiyng field, and what have you got? a prayer.
As someone who hasn’t read the book, maybe I’m qualified to answer the focus-group question.
I want the alternative history, and I want it because I agree with the ‘puppet’ characterizations of Bush ; we need to understand that this guy was plugged into a narrative that’s been out of our view for decades.
eCAHNomics @ 138
Avi, have you looked to Annenberg or the Macarthur Foundations for funding of both?
Loo Hoo. @ 120
Ummmmm, like uh do you mean things like having to have permission of the Government to leave the County by sea or air; starting in Feb(?) ‘08
Avi Lewis @ 122
Steve-AR @ 152
quoi?
Pachacutec @ 89
I agree
RFK Action Front @ 83
Many of you already know this but for those of you that don’t: Alfonso Cuarón, the brilliant director who made both those films, made a wonderful short film (with his son Jonás Cuarón) called The Shock Doctrine. You can watch it at www.shockdoctrine.org. Alfonso donated his time to this project precisely because he feels so passionately about these themes and has been developing them for years in his work. As you can tell, I’m a huge fan.
Bush has done quite well by his base as the power behind the throne wrote the script and handed it to him to perform.
I really don’t see Bush as anything other than an actor in a play that has been decades in the making. Yes, his “base” is wealthy beyond imagination due largely to him playing his part and very - ahem - competently.
Why are you finding it hard to stay calm? A huge portion of the people that I know all think Bush is an idiot albeit a very, very, very well connected and wealthy one.
You don’t have to be smart to make a bundle of money for someone else. Do you?
eCAHNomics @ 131
Yes, or somehow fitting in flashbacks.
Naomi,
I also would like to read your thoughts on how Chavez is trying to fight this phenomenon and whether the markets will try their damnest to cause the collapse of the Venezuelan economy.
And your Pulitzer is in the mail.
Hello Avi
would you rather see this as a background/prelude to an investigation of Disaster Capitalism unfolding in real time - like if we had started filming the privatized firefighting in California?
How about start in Poland or later and very quickly move through those periods for back ground and then spend 45 minutes on the US?
jo6pac
Avi Lewis @ 122
selfishly, Avi, could you do both… with a voiceover as we move between paradigms?
kittykitty @ 153
Police State mindset?
Steve-AR @ 161
Papers, please?
Ed*ard Teller @ 99
One of the hardest parts of writing the book was finding the discipline to disappear from public life for the time it took to do the research and writing. I knew some people would think I had lost my nerve, and it felt irresponsible at times not to be using the media spaces I have access to. At any rate, thanks for noticing I was gone :)
With The Shock Doctrine, I have had more access to MSM in the U.S. than before, but just barely. The NYT reviewed the book (and I’m grateful for that) but The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, The Wall Street Journal, The LA Times (and many more) have not reviewed it or, in most cases, even mentioned it. I do find that interesting, given that it has already made bestseller lists in six countries, including the NYT list.
I did record an interview with Charlie Rose last Friday and it should air soon. It was heated at times but I did my best. In fact, my greatest disappointment has not been the absence of coverage on CNN, which I expect, but the fact that we’ve so far had no luck with Fresh Air, Jim Lehrer and Moyers…
Okay, enough whining from me, but since I know that FDLers are such avid media watchers (and influencers) I thought I would share a bit about this side of the reaction. The MSM outside the US (in Britain, Canada, Germany, Spain etc…) has covered the book heavily, though by no means uncritically. And thinking about that, it seems pretty petty to complain at all, since there are so many wonderful books published by progressives that are shut out completely. Comparatively, I’ve been incredibly lucky.
kirk james murphy, m.d. @ 161
Yep! Passport, please…
Americans seem to have short term memories so highlighting the recent events might help ingrain the rise of corporatism in our country. Professor Foland @ 19 posted the wish list of the Heritage Foundation and it’s unfortunate that MSM hasn’t picked this up in light of the UN Report on Global Warming. Thanks for such an informative book and informative discussion.
Bush has succseded in implementing his ideas yes, but his ideas don’t work.
Long term the wealth of America and Bush’s wealth is dependent on the general wealth of the people.
Bush’s policies weaken America as America weakens we will become poorer. Other countries will build up their industry and start to pay their skilled workers more to fill the gap.
Things Come Undone @ 166
And we become a third world nation.
I keep telling my kids to learn Chinese and Arabic because that will be our lingua franca when the bills come due.
I am of the school that looks on Bush as an idiot. The Republicans came upon the empty suit strategy beginning with Reagan. Get someone who is affable (Reagan) or you would like to have a beer with (as Bush was sold) and feed them the script. The rest takes care of itself.
IIRC Bush was once a cheerleader, but being a cheerleader didn’t mean he knew anything about football. It just meant he could yell. His tenure as President has been much the same.
Steve-AR @ 152
Yes. Why can’t I go to Cuba?
Naomi Klein @ 164
Okay, so now we know who we need to email this week, firepups!
kirk james murphy, m.d. @ 162
You must sign zee papahs!! i cannot sign zee papahs, i cannot sign zee papahs, you have cut off both my hands!
sorry an old skit, the pause and the disaster.
is there something in the works really for feb 08 along this line? where have i been? please inform
CTuttle @ 163
New “Homeland” regulations will require National ID or Passport to enter National Parks..I am not sure if this has been delayed by the Congress blocking funding.
Naomi, is there any chance you could ‘vacation’ here in Hawai’i, after your rigorous book tour… Borders has quite a few outlets here in the Isles… *g*
momly @ 133
The alternative history may in the long run be of most importance in that it may provide illumination into the hidden agenda being followed by corporatists in their administration of the US government. This is a history not reported in school texts and rarely in university level education. It will be the most important public service to the citizenry of the US.
US history will not be written by Americans, US history will be written by the balance of the world, the survivers.
Before the clock runs out, I just want to extend a very special thanks to Jane Hamsher for her incredible work, her thoughtful setup for this discussion, her steady support for the Shock Doctrine, and everything else she does.
And to everyone who has participated today: it’s really been an honour to have this dialogue with all of you!
Avi Lewis @ 121
Mr. Lewis, I’d be happy to put my two cents in–as a filmmaker I couldn’t help but begin to imagine how this fantastic secret history could be made into a film–to me it would be inconceivable to do it any other way than the 40 year history. A theatrical release would blow America’s mind just as Ms. Klein’s book has done to Firepups! Good luck and I can’t wait to see what you come up with!
@-@
This is outrageous. Do you have a link I can fire around to people?
I would say keep working on Moyers. The NewsHour is pretty much a lost cause. It’s a Catch 22. If an idea is new they will not present it until it has been deemed completely uncontroversial and harmless. Of course, if it is uncontroversial and harmless, then it can be safely ignored.
Hugh @ 167
I agree..I wonder how many of these wackos were cheerleaders..Perry, Lott, Bush others?
Mahalo Nui Loa, Naomi, Avi, and Deborah! We certainly appreciate ya’ll being here…
Thank you, Naomi.
Thank you for your time. I will look for your book and maybe piss of my Republican relations at Christmas by handing them each a copy!!
Naomi Klein @ 175
Naomi Klein @ 163
terry gross and jim lehrer are sick of hearing from me. they are MSM lightweights who like to play heavyweight on tv. Same with Bill Moyers most of the time. If you’ll notice, since his new journal came on , he’s goteen progressively less progressive and willing to take a radical look at anything. lst few shows really lame. Naomi, should take it as a compliment they aren’t intersted. You’ll make em all look bad. We’re proud of you for that.
Naomi, Thank you again for writing such an easy to read informative book. If you extend your tour and come to Atlanta, I’d be honored to have you sign my book.
momly @ 176
If one doesn’t show up, I will root around and find some refs.
Thank you
and pups don’t forget to digg it
momly @ 156
No but you have to be connected with insider information like Bush 1’s Carlyle group and their military contracts.
Opps sorry the Subprime crises is hitting the leveraged hedgefundies Bush’s base worst than it does normal people.
Believing the hype and investing like you believe the hype is now being discredited as shorterm, unsustainable profits dependent on the imaginary, still unknown value of mortgage paper. That and low interest rates and banks not calling in hedgefund debts due like they are calling in home mortgages.
I expect a government taxpayer paid for finnacial system bailout next year as more banks can’t keep hedgefund debt losses hidden any longer.
Thank you, Naomi!!
CTuttle @ 151
Thanks for the wave of thoughtful feedback and suggestions. And given your collective enthusiasm for a present-tense narrative that re-frames for Americans an event they already think they understand, I’m even more determined that the film should try to apply the Shock Doctrine both historically and in the present.
Pachacutec @ 102
pach - was curious why you think this?
Thank you so much, Naomi! Can’t wait to read it. The clip on Amazon was incredible, the film will be wonderful. Really. Bottom of my heart and all that!
Naomi Klein @ 164
This is a common complaint we hear all the time on the Book Salon from authors of progressive books. They’re either subject to catty, superficial reviews by people like Michio Kakutani or Eve Fairbanks or completely ignored.
It’s a real problem and one of the reasons we created the Book Salon in the first place. It takes a ton of work to pull off each week so I’ll take the opportunity to thank Bev Wright for all the hard work she does to make it happen and appear seamless. Lemme tell ya, it’s anything but, though well worth it.
Loo Hoo. @ 170
never mind Cuba. They are building systems to prevent emigration, as terminal tyrannies like the Soviet Union or East Germany do.
supposedly, DHS has a 100 mile zone around the entire US perimeter in which they can set up checkpoints, demand papers, and run them through the databases they have been building up.
it’s 1938 for real now.
Avi Lewis @ 122
Hi Avi! You rock! Thanks to both you and Naomi for your extraordinary work!
“Alternative history of the last 4 decades” is good. “Disaster Capitalism unfolding in real time” would also be interesting. But what I’d like to see is an alternative history of Milton Friedman himself. I want to see his brand completely demolished. I want people to be embarrassed to use the name Milton Friedman, economic shock therapy, laissez faire, free market capitalism, etc. I want to see Milton Friedman portrayed as the war criminal that he was and then show the links between Friedman and all the war criminals in the Bush administration (Bremer, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz etc. who were all Friedman followers). Said differently, I want this to be personal. (-:
The wars and the coups aren’t just fought by the generals, the soldiers, and the dictators. They rely on the think tanks, those who market their memes, and those who provide intellectual cover to try to justify corporatism.
T-bear @ 117
Ok, last word from me: I have to say that the Catalan edition of The Shock Doctrine is my favourite because the cover is bright red and they spell “shock” “xoc” - which looks incredibly cool. In fact, I think we should all start spelling shock that way. Anyone design fetishists must check it out here.
Mere Empah,
supplanted by the
nefarious plans of
world-class plutocrats.
Aye, wee Georgie is but
a bit player, sociopath
that he is, he thinks
’tis all his own grand
scheme . . .
Consequence for all the
‘gamers’
or
doom for our tottering
experiment with Democracy.
What say you?
movie sounds right up George Cloooney’s street $$$$?
i wonder if libertytvnews might have some $$ ideas
Avi Lewis @ 122
Off the top of my head I’d really like to see an alternative history, but the thing about documentaries that watch events unfold (like Barbara Kopple’s American Dream, the story of the 1985 meatpackers’ strike) you never know what you’re going to get before you get it.
RFK Action Front @ 195
Hi Avi! You rock! Thanks to both you and Naomi for your extraordinary work!
“Alternative history of the last 4 decades” is good. “Disaster Capitalism unfolding in real time” would also be interesting. But what I’d like to see is an alternative history of Milton Friedman himself. I want to see his brand completely demolished. I want people to be embarrassed to use the name Milton Friedman, economic shock therapy, laissez faire, free market capitalism, etc. I want to see Milton Friedman portrayed as the war criminal that he was and then show the links between Friedman and all the war criminals in the Bush administration (Bremer, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz etc. who were all Friedman followers). Said differently, I want this to be personal. (-:
The wars and the coups aren’t just fought by the generals, the soldiers, and the dictators. They rely on the think tanks, those who market their memes, and those who provide intellectual cover to try to justify corporatism.
GO GET ‘EM!!!!!
Looking forward to it!
Avi Lewis @ 190
I look forward to seeing the film. Thanks for your work as well!
selise @ 191
See the arrogant, condescending, patronizing answers in yesterdays book salon
{{{{{Bev Wright}}}}}
Naomi Klein @ 196
Thanks so much for being here today, Naomi. It really added another dimension to my personal appreciation of the book. It’s a remarkable accomplishment and you should be really proud. We are so grateful you took the time to stop by and chat today.
I think it would be best done as a hard-hitting expose in real time. People need to be really hit hard with the idea that disaster-capitalism can catastrophically change their lives, and/or the lives and futures of their children
Any chance Naomi can post here and is there anyway we can get email notices of when?
Thanks to Crooks and Liars for pointing this out; I just happened to be online and saw their notice.
I don’t usually participate in these things but couldn’t pass up a chance to give it a shot. Thanks for including me!
David W. Bartoo @ 197
Cheney used Bush’s sense of entitlement to propel the xoc doctrine forward. A perfect plan from a perfect ****ole. We were duped for a time by Bush’s lack of conscience thinking it was stupidity.
john in sacramento @ 202
is there reason to think that is characteristic of a generation of activists?
marymccurnin @ 208
Lack of conscience I will buy. Any type of intelligence, eh, not so much.
john in sacramento @ 202
John,
What do you mean by this? Were the authors jerks?
Thanks Naomi, and Avi, and Debra
I ordered the book and hope it gets here soon.
The information you’ve dug up is so incredibly important and it needs to be seen by a wide audience. I suspect my copy will be full of hilighted sections and bookmarks and post-it notes ;-)
I’m going to spend more time going over the links you’ve provided Naomi and Debra so I can fully absorb the info
And Avi, about your question at 122, I think the second one would be more accessible to a wider audience, but the first one would be invaluable to those of us who’ve more or less paid attention - so what’s my preference? For me, I’d like the first option - but it’s up to you. I can’t wait to see it.
Thank you guys
selise @ 209
I could have misread the tone of the author but it seemed that that is what he was implying of the netroots, and what he seemed to ignore is that many people on the netroots are not only of his generation but probably colleagues of his from years ago.
What he seems to ignore is that many people writing and commenting on blogs (FDL, C&L, thinkprogress, TPM …) or the internet are sharp, intelligent, successful people who are the ones who drove the way for the Democratic victory in 06 by their activism (phone banks, canvassing, stuffing envelopes, door hangers, donations …)
He seemed to be dismissive of people who read the internet for their info and as an activism vehicle as snotty children who need to let “the serious people” control the government
But maybe I read his tone wrong
momly @ 178
I just got a $10 senior card for National Parks without any ID at all. Personnel are far more flexible than authoritarians at the top.
sporkovat @ 194
I live within 100 miles (I think) of the Mexican border. On both the I-5 and the 15 freeways, which are the two (and really only) major freeways that run up to Los Angeles, there have been two border check points at roughly 50 miles north of the Mexican border. They are only rarely open, and then you’re basically waved thru (rather like a drink driving checkpoing). I can see how those would be utilized to clamp down pretty quickly though. Gah!
Anything like that up by the Canadian border?
Hi Naomi and like all the others, I thank you for your book. I have to admit to not having read it but my husband read it eagerly and I’ve had an incremental oral book report as his reading progressed. I have to say thank you on another level. Our family left the US in large part due to the losses occasioned by the Bush administration and we have settled in NZ. Certainly, nowhere is safe from these notions, particularly a little country like NZ. We do our best to stay off the radar, however. Meanwhile, I have noticed that your name has been brought up in the indigenous rights area; your ideas have transferrability to other issues and your work is appreciated there, too.
peanutbutter @ 216
Clarification…”rarely open” meaning open for business, i.e., actually stopping motorists. Most of the time the checkpoint’s closed and you sail on through. They’ve been there since forever (at least since I’ve been driving).
john in sacramento @ 202
I missed this little party.
Full marks to FDL participants who behaved very civilly given the arrogant, flippant etc. etc. not to mention insulting behavior of such ‘experts’.
I commend both your tolerance and your maturity.
john in sacramento @ 214
i’m not disagreeing with your characterization - especially as i haven’t read throught the whole thread…. my question to pach was more about his use of “often” in referring to a generation of activists. seemed kinda weird to me - but maybe i misunderstood his comment:
i waited until the end of niaomi’s visit to ask, because i didn’t want to distract from the discussion of her book…. but, maybe i waited to long, as i think pach is gone. oh well, not that important….
Christy Hardin Smith @ 97
I think one thing that is so brilliantly evil about the whole Republican plan is that they have coupled the “government doesn’t work” meme with the idea they’ve been working on since at least Reagan: that we should pay as little in taxes as possible, since your tax money just gets wasted.
It drives me crazy when candidates talk about “no new taxes” when we REALLY need to talk about “New Taxes: How, When and What For.”
But by creating a horrid economy [people are scared, hurting] and combining it with a lack of services and/or “services” “provided” [i.e. looted] by crooked private contractor pals, the Repubs have created the perfect storm: resistance to taxes for the public good; destruction of faith in government to take care of the public good, etc.
We have a lot that needs to be fixed, and it’s going to be quite challenging to do so.
Another possible spot for getting on TV: Austin Tx is progressive and there is a local interview program with the editor of Texas Monthly. He is Evan Smith. He does 1/2 hour interviews, and I imagine you would appeal to his audience. Check TX Monthly or the PBS station in Austin for contact information. Also our local book store, BookPeople has writers in for great in-store readings and discussions. They’ve had Draper, Brinkley Kerry, Clinton, Gordon, etc. I bet you could get booked for the book tour and Q & A. Good luck
So there is a method to the madness of Little Georgie and Big Dickie…including their usurping the authority of our nation’s governors over control of our states’ national guard units and reservists.
Thank you, Naomi, for connecting the dots. I’ve felt for some time now that our nation is in graver danger from these neo-con Republicans (and their conservative Democrat sympathizers) than our nation is in danger from the al Qaeda threat…primarily because the neo-con Republicans present the most clear and most present danger to all of our democratic institutions and ideals.
Mauimom @ 220
You nailed it.
And from John Dean’s book “Conservatives without Conscience” we see how this came about by exploiting the 30% of the population who are vulnerable to authoritarianism.
epu’d, but thanks all. Wonderful discussion. Naomi’s book is now at the top of my list.
Damnation, but I wish I could have made it to this salon in real time!!!
I’ve bought two copies of this book, loaned out the first a couple times, am still reading the second. I cannot get through it, even though I’ve been reading it for a month…because every time I make it through a page I have to slam the book shut in fury and do something else for a while.
You see, I went to business school. They crammed the Chicago School down our throats, never telling us what it was, always insisting this was to business what Newton was to physics. I still remember painfully an argument with one of my Econ profs about sustainability. He’d said that if we were worried about the trees, we should just use paper — crinkling up a fresh piece of white notebook paper here for effect, and tossing it directly in the garbage can — that the market would make more, no worries.
I was AGHAST. I worked for a chemical company at the time; I knew that the bleach required for that paper created dioxins, which polluted the river that flowed less than a mile from the school. When would the market clean up that river? when would the market bear the cost of the damage that dioxin cost the community? He couldn’t answer those questions, just blithely went on with his lecture.
That was 10 years ago; the river is still polluted. There is yet another warning against eating fish from that river, on top of previous warnings against fishing and eating game that lives in the river flood plain. The market is still fighting against cleaning the river, tooth and nail against the community and the state government…
How many students in the mean time have gotten that same lecture and other similar lectures from professors like that one who balled up that crisp white paper so dismissively? How many of them are managers now — or worse, educators — blithely tossing paper without a care because the market will fix it and make it all better?
Each page of Naomi’s book reminds me of that lecture, and of earlier arguments in macro economics over guns-or-butter. If only I could insist that every business student in American must read it. Bravo, Naomi.
For Avi, if he comes back — why not do both? There very much must be a historic reference, one that could be used in business schools as a counterweight to the Friedman fetish whenever business schools begin to come to their senses. And why not a concurrent, topical exploration of disaster capitalism as it takes its toll on a community (God knows I have a perfect example here in my back yard)? It would capture the attention of those who seem unable to sit through history lessons.
If the American public can manage to follow the multiple 7 to 10 threads running concurrently through the Sopranos, they should be able to manage flipping back and forth between Chile in the 70’s and America today, perhaps using the Social Security system as a lynch pin between the two. The Chicago School wants the U.S. to privatize Social Security — but it has already been a failure in Chile, where Chicago School worked its magic.
Sorry I missed this salon in real time, too.
Agree with Rayne. Please include both in the movie.
Supposedly the fraternity of magicians have some agreement not to divulge the secrets of their magic tricks to outsiders.
Naomi is like an audience member who figures it out and publicizes it to others. By telling the audience where to look, the tricks fall flat. This is one Magic Show that deserves to be ruined.
Rayne @ 225
Rayne is clearly on to something fundamentally important here, and it will require puting together the best qualities produced by education (formal and informal) to perceive the situation and to find answers to counteract and control those who promulgate the problem.
Historically, the sole institution capable of withstanding the will of wealth was the government. The ability to organize labor to protect itself was done under the umbrella of governmental protection. It shoud be clear that what has transpired since the Johnson adminstration is a concerted effort to surrepticiously undermine and destroy, not only the New Deal of FDR, the government itself. That may be the real message of “Mission Accomplished”.
I need to obtain a copy of Naomi’s book forthwith! THANKS
Naomi, your book was extremely enlightening and answered many questions I’ve asked myself over the years.
Can you comment on FutureMap? I was looking for a reference to it in your book, but was disappointed you did not include it. Where did it go? I doubt its sinister promoters let such a potentially lucrative program sit on the shelf and gather dust. Any idea where those people are now and what they’re up to?
I’m sorry I missed this book salon yesterday. I’m about half way through the book and it’s been a real eye-opener.
eCAHNomics @ 12
One of the defining characteristics of fascism is extreme nationalism and this is missing from many of the examples Ms. Klein cited in the book. Chile under Pinochet and Argentina under the military junta were fascistic, however the same cannot be said of other examples such as Poland.
The most heartbreaking part of the book (so far) for me was the chapter on South Africa following Nelson Mandela’s release from prison. For me, the end of Apartheid in South Africa was one of the great triumphs of progressives. Particularly tragic were how the ANC was outmaneuvered in economic negotiations and how The Freedom Charter–the document drafted in 1955 that outlined the guiding principles of the ANC–was gutted and, for all intents and purposes abandoned.
Agree with a couple of posters who had to pause after each chapter or two. It is a rough read, as much of this discouraging information was never clearly out there in our media.
For example, think of your fifteen year old memories of Boris Yeltzin: a dancing fool on television.
I can safely predict that the Washington Post, when they get around to reviewing Xoc, will choose someone like John Fund or Terry Jeffries.
I am reading the book presently. The only thing that bothers me is the reference to Israel and not the “Israeli government.” I is like confusing the people of the USA with the government of the USA. I do understand that Israel bashing is in vogue.
sporkovat @ 194
Oh, so *that’s* why they come onboard Amtrak trains in Rochester, NY (the first stop after Buffalo, close to the entry point from Canada) and ask for ID from anyone they think looks like an “illegal.” Chilling, but it happens. The ones I saw wore brown shirts (sheriff’s deputies, I think). Train employees told me it happens all the time. They take a few from The Lakeshore Limited nearly every day.
# # #
Thank you for having this wonderful discussion FDL….and for your brilliant strategies to unseat Dems. like Lieberman and Emmanuel. I think Shock Doctrine is going to have an important effect on the world. Good things will happen and is now in Latin America ..I agree with the commenter who said maybe they went too far. I live close to the Canadian border near Lincoln ME. Border patrol agents were in a small grocery store. Friend of mine works there. They didn’t want to admit who they were ..but finally did because she was persistent. A real estate agent said several years ago this area would be getting bigger because of more border patrol agents moving in. They are going to build a hotel in Lincoln…which now is laughable. Lincoln is a sleepy little town of 6,000.