Some time ago I read “Socrates Cafe”, by Christopher Phillips, a philosopher who sets up discussion groups which attempt to answer questions using the Socratic method. It’s not a bad little book, and Phillips and his participants do ask some good questions - and the model of Socrates is certainly one I’ve always admired. But the book got me thinking about the following question - “how do we know what we know?”
The question bothers me, and engages me, because action comes from knowledge (or should). If your knowledge is wrong - your actions will not have the consequences you expect. For me economics, especially development economics, is the paradigmatic case. It turns out that building power infrastructure isn’t the key step to development. It turns out that opening up markets isn’t always a hot idea. It turns out that tariffs do appear to work, under some circumstances. It turns out that what works for a city state is different than what works for a larger nation. It turns out moving to cash crops to generate a surplus may not be such a hot idea. It turns out that government borrowing to “invest” in the economy doesn’t usually work. In fact it turns out that almost everything development “experts” have told the developing world to do over the last fifty years - doesn’t work.
More recently and spectacularly it turns out that Iraqis weren’t going to greet US troops with flowers. It turns out that Saddam didn’t have WMD. It turns out that failing to rebuild Iraq was held against the coalition. It turns out that the number of troops sent in wasn’t sufficient.
The post-modern answer seems to be that the answer is whatever you say it is as long as you can game the system to accept your answer. This works when you’re operating in a system that everyone accepts and which has the surplus to support being wrong. You can think of it in Marxian terms as the superstructure vs. the underlying reality. If you do something that doesn’t mesh with the underlying reality - if the other game participants buy in, then in effect you’re “right”. There are consequences, and those consequences may impoverish or kill people, but you’re rewarded for gaming the system, so from your point of view, who cares? This works as long as you’re in a system with a significant surplus and margin for error. In the US, for a long time, the system was so powerful and rich, that even if your policies made no sense at all (say, Star Wars) it didn’t matter - the system could support the draw down and the supporters of Star Wars are rich, and those who opposed it - well, who cares what they think, anyway? Show me the money, baby!
Now this system of “knowledge” or “truth” breaks down under two circumstances. The first is when the surplus/power isn’t sufficient to support incompetence - to overwhelm the fact that you’re doing things stupidly. The second is when players refuse to play and your power isn’t sufficient to roll over them. If you add the two together, you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Iraq’s a situation where you’ve got both situations - the US isn’t powerful enough to just roll over the Iraqi opposition - and the Iraqis are outside of the game. Now the thing is if you’d bought up the right Iraqis - made them rich and powerful - you’d probably be powerful and have enough surplus to pull it off. And if you were just powerful enough, you wouldn’t have to buy them (though it’d still be smart).
That’s post-modernism. It’s built on the house that modernism built and modernism’s mantra is “follow the discipline”, or “follow the numbers”. You do what the numbers tell you to do. Modernism has its problems - overspecialization and managing what you can measure are two of them. Modern professionals do what their professional understanding tells them to do and if that profession is only measuring part of the problem then they may only be acting on part of the information and in doing so may do the wrong thing. So, for example, Keynesian economics deals primarily with the business cycle in a system where there are no bottlenecks you can’t substitute away from using either labor or capital. When that isn’t true, Keynesian economics doesn’t work. When the problem isn’t the business cycle per se, but deeper structural problem - Keynesian economics doesn’t quite work either.
But modernism has outside discipline - in post-modernism if you’re winning the game you’re right. You know, your truth is the truth. In modernism if the numbers don’t add up, even if you’re making money or if things seem to be ok - you’re wrong and you need to adjust. If the system is still producing a surplus, but the numbers aren’t coming out the way you predicted, as a modernist you need to know why. As a post-modernist, “whatever, it’s working.”
There’s an old saying that runs as follows, “a beautiful theory, slain by an ugly fact.” The problem is that it seems that ugly facts don’t slay beautiful theories any more. The fact is that no nation other than a city state has modernized in modern times by engaging in free trade and free currency flows. Yet it still gets prescribed, because the theory of comparative advantage is so beautiful, that no economist wants to either dump it, or make it work (and it can work, you just need to understand under what circumstances rather than trying to make it a universal law that works under all circumstances.)
This is where the second of the three tests of truth runs up on the shoals of the third (we'll visit the first test in a moment).
The second test of truth is the test of coherence. Is it internally consistent? Is it logical? That’s the test of coherence. The test of coherence is internal, a theory can be coherent -- and absolutely dead wrong. The third test of truth is the pragmatic test. Does it work? So - comparative advantage doesn’t work. Therefore, even if it’s coherent - it’s wrong. Or our understanding of it is wrong.
This is the Iraq test as well. Obviously the NeoCon/Bush understanding of the Iraq occupation and war is wrong. Why? Because it isn’t working. They’re losing. They’re wrong because it’s a clusterfuck. If they were right, they’d be winning.
Now the first test of truth is identity - if I say “the swan is black” and the swan is white, I’m full of it. But the first test of truth is the hardest one. Most things aren’t that clear cut. Sometimes they are - it’s pretty clear that Saddam didn’t have WMD’s of any significance, for example. It’s clear that Iraqis didn’t greet the coalition troops with flowers, as another example. But most of the time you’re operating in an imperfect world where you can't just say “that doesn’t match with reality.”
So, the development experts who thought that if they built power plants and power lines third world countries would industrialize -- most of them were probably operating in good faith. It’s true that first world countries have power plants and power lines. It’s true that third world countries at that time didn't have those things. It’s true that large scale industry is very difficult to engage in without those things. But it turns out it's not true that those things are sufficient for modernization. They’re necessary - but not sufficient. It also turns out that they’re perhaps premature - they’d be necessary at some point - but there are steps that have to come first.
And that moves us back to the question “how do you know what you know?” Because if you’re a development expert back in the 50’s you’ve got to fish or cut bait - you’ve got to tell people how to develop or you’ve got to say “don’t know, excuse me, I’m going back to Peoria”. So the development experts looked at the Tennesse Valley Authority and the Marshall Plan, said “hey they seem to be working” and went for it with the best of intentions - and fucked things up unimaginably badly.
And so we come back to - how do you know what you know? Sometimes it’s obvious. Before the Iraq war I was saying “there are no WMD of any significance, the war will be easy and the occupation will be hell.” So were lots of other people. The first was a question of the first and second tests of truth. Identity - there were no WMD being found. Second test, coherence, the administration was constantly being caught out in lies about WMD - the story wasn’t coherent. On the third test - well the Bushies are fuckups, so pragmatically, why would you think they knew what they were talking about?
On the occupation you’re looking at test one and two. Coherence - these people think the Iraqis, who have been under US embargo, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, are going to greet the US with flowers? Pragmatic - well, see Bush is a fuckup on policy and see “firing the professional staff (Shinseki) when they try and tell you to use the number of troops and tactics which have worked in the past.”
Did you see that phrase “worked in the past”? Well - if something’s worked in the past, maybe you should look at it and emulate it and try and figure out why it worked in the past. Hmmmm?
So when those development experts were trying to give advice, maybe they should have looked at the only non-western country to succesfully modernize and industrialize and try and figure out what it did? Maybe they should have looked at Japan. Because the TVA was not applicable (not a country trying to modernize) and the Marshall Plan was not applicable (modern countries rebuilding, not trying to go from a non-modern to a modern state). But Japan was (at least partially) applicable - a non western country trying to go from a pre-modern to a modern economy. How’d they do it? Well they didn’t do it by building centralized power plants, by dropping tariffs, by inviting in huge factories or by selling commodities. They didn't do it by importing foreign managers either. In fact they did almost exactly nothing that the development experts were advising their clients to do. Nothing.
So you’ve got a successful model of how to develop and you’ve got a bunch of untested theories based on inapplicable models. Which should you go for? The untested models, of course. Because those models were developed by people like you, not a bunch of geeks. Because those models allow you to sell the developing countries your expertise, your goods and allow you to set up lucrative trade deals. Not only do you get to believe your own theories - you get to profit from it.
How do we know what we know when you actually need to make a decision and take action? Honestly - I don’t know. But I do know you need to ask yourself the three questions I listed above. And I do know that you need to ask yourself:
is there someone who’s done it and succeeded?
And did they actually do what I want to do and start from the same state? Did they really do it? What’s different between what I want to do and where I’m starting from than where they started from?
Am I going to do more harm than good if I’m wrong?
People often say inaction is worse than doing something. They’re wrong. Remember, in any situation you’re walking into there’s already a solution set being applied and if you mess with it, your solution set may be worse.
Now - in a crisis, sometimes you’ve got to take action - because the end state of the current trendline is unacceptable and even if you make it worse - well, dead is dead and dead in three years as opposed to five is still dead, but a chance of life has to be taken.
But in many cases - you need to ask yourself carefully, “do I really know what I think I know? Am I sure enough that I know to take action?”
Because if you don’t answer those questions reality will - and you may not like the answers…
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Hi Ian!
Ian!
Thought this was interesting.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/.....amp;coll=1
Saw it in the Newark Star-Ledger today. Maybe some of you knew this,but I haven’t seen in in MSM. The Surge is working remember? I mean, I think this is huge. I read somewhere that Vietnam really didn’t come apart - for all the protests here and political pressure - until the troops started to disobey and rebel.
I don’t like the answer, but I like the consequences of doing nothing even less.
Forgetting post-modernism for the moment, you might try scientific methodology for figuring out how you know what you know. Hypothesis testing & all that. Worked pretty well for me when I was a Wall St. economist forecasting U.S. GDP. I was a science major as an undergraduate, so I had a healthy respect for robust methodology. Most of my competitors had a notion & went data-mining to find support. I looked at the data first to see what they suggested, within economic theory frameworks, which, as Ian points out, are never dispositive, only suggestive. As I was in the forecasting business, I was not always right, but I was right more often & missed many bad errors.
Hi Ian
Stop making sense.
Elliott @ 6
Yeah. Really.
Ian,
Thanks.
“…you’re rewarded for gaming the system, so from your point of view, who cares?” That would sum up this Maladministration’s philosophy, succinctly…
1,661 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Ian Welsh and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“The question bothers me ,and engages me, because action comes from knowledge (or should).”
I think I know why yer havin’ trouble there, brother Ian, you have things a bit upside down. Knowledge should come from some form of experience with the world which means that knowledge reflects the synthesis of action with intellect. You ken get into the scholastic faggot hassle of tryin ta distinguish experience and action but in the end it comes down ta knowledge as the product of experience with history and ya don’t have history without action and ya don’t engage the intellect without conscious action.
As far as economics is concerned, this understanding of the psychology of knowledge should be an axiom in any theory of economic behavior.
KEEP THE FAITH, AIN’T THIS FUN??!!!
Ian, what a great post. I printed it so that I can really study it. I have spent many years trying to decide “how do you know what you don’t know” - haven’t figured a good answer yet. Thank you for bringing this up.
Ian… I’ve been thinking a lot about economics lately, and especially water resources. I’m always looking for discussion about how the hell we are going to live in a more feasible manner.
So what did the Japanese do, Ian? Educate their people? This is one of Bush’s biggest mistakes too, he thought that through a compliant press and NCLB, he could make people stupid.
Most things aren’t that clear cut.
Ain’t it da truff?
I believe that this is why so much in life is challenging.
‘Cause the, ya gotta take a time out and actually think about it.
Whatever the issue is.
I think we need a bit of a zen infusion.
Space, then truth.
Or, some facimile of it…
OK, the other guys f**ked up. I’ll stipulate to that.
Whadda you got?
More specifically, whadda you got as a substitute for the development economics models that (I will stipulate) haven’t done a damn thing right?
Hypothetical question: Robert Mugabe died yesterday. You’ve got absolute control of all of the levers of power in Zimbabwe. Now what?
Having a ‘Knowledge’ of history should/would avoid repeating history… 8-(
Wonderful post, Ian. Might want to point out that Japan (as well as Taiwan, Korea, and Brazil which are on track to emulate Japan) in fact did pretty much the exact opposite of what the development experts (and the World Bank, IMF, etc.)say to do.
Strength in numbers? Sounds inflationary. Marking to Model turned out really well…NOT!
Lemmings rule… until they don’t.
The pursuit of continuity underlies all behavior, strange though it may seem.
Ian, can you please explain what you mean by:
“You do what the numbers tell you to do. Modernism has its problems - overspecialization and managing what you can measure are two of them.”
do you mean sorta like information overload?
thanks
I wish Petrocelli were here. He’d have a lot of info for us on this subject, I’ll bet.
CTuttle @ 16
knowledge & conscience (heart) = change
(maybe?)
Thank you for a beautifully thought out, cogent and topical article on the circle-jerk that is the Iraq war…
Blogs like this are so sophisticated and reasoned compared to most of the sophomoric trash I run into on right-wing sites that the difference is astounding!
And yet the DC pundit class still rants about the angry and nasty bloggers of the left as if it were the “truth” instead of a way to justify their own pathetic views.
BTW, scientific methodology stood me in good stead when I worked on the problem of whether SH had WMDs or AQ ties. Luckily I came upon Scott Ritter, but also read the other side, like Laurie Mylroie & Stephen Hayes. Kept assessing their arguements against incoming data & quickly figured out which side was right. Didn’t take long either. In summer 02 I could barely find Iraq on a map, & had the most likely answer in less than 6 months.
Remember, though, that you can never know anything for sure. Science is nothing more than a set of hypotheses that haven’t yet been proved wrong.
great, engaging read, I know you are generalizing but I do want to make a few points and clarify if I may;
it does usually work, it’s when the “borrowing” doesn’t go to invest it goes to pad the pockets that it doesn’t work
investments MUST be targeted, for instance, you CAN “lower taxes” as an investment IF that tax is an incentive for an industry that has stalled…this isn’t really a “lowering of taxes”, it is an investment, the principle must come back from that same industry otherwise the investment fails
that’s what the “supply side” economists try to hide, they’ll trot out a statistic that showed a particular tax reduction improved the economy and they’ll point and say “see, lower everything and the economy will boom”, which is of course a ridiculous conclusion but that is how they market their economics, it’s how they steal middle class assets
so borrowing to invest DOES work, it’s borrowing to steal that doesn’t work.
my next point;
they are winning Ian
their very purpose is to break the military, they WANT to force America into using private armed forces, they WANT the middle east to be at war and unrest, they DON’T want a “free flow of oil”, obviously that will lower their profits, they want to RESTRICT the flow of oil
they DIDN’T want to “win the hearts and minds”, if they did they would have protected the infrastructure, they would have provided electricity, food and water, they would have made CERTAIN it was THE IRAQI’S that rebuilt Iraq and NOT foreigners
they did EVERYTHING WRONG deliberately, this is what they wanted, they wanted never ending war, they are war profiteers, they wanted to destroy the infrastructure of the middle east, they wanted to break America’s armed forces
what is brutally frightening is that America has yet to see this…that we are being set up, everything is being set up to fail
they deliberately appoint the inept to important positions, they deliberately underfund vital programs they deliberately undermine and chance of success at anything
so they weren’t “wrong”, it’s going according to the pnac’s plan
that plan was to pillage the assets of the middle east, to acquire the assets of the American middle class to which has amassed over generations.
this is the greatest “train robbery” in the history of planet earth
I can go on but you get the idea
Meh. Seems to me that most economic theory comes loaded with so many caveats and prerequisites that they rarely apply to any real-world situation. Look at the sub-prime meltdown, I mean how many economics doctorates were staring at the obvious in these financial institutions, or working as analysts, or handing out AAA ratings to steaming piles of crap. Only a small handful of economists ever questioned these securities.
The problem I have with economics is it’s so flexible you can get any answer you want, and that’s how it is used today. As a rational of an ideology.
A further issue is that most of the “modernisation” of the middle east was done by and for the military and was accomplished, to the extent that it was accomplished, at the cost of great brutality.
Who did not benefit from it were the ordinary people. Then westerners wonder why so many reject the “benefits” of “modernity”
Incidentally a major exception to this was Irak after the overthrow of the puppet monarchy where there were benefits to the population at large. Saddam by and large continued those policies, yes he (and his equally rapacious cronies) got wildly wealthy, but the population as a whole got things like schools and clinics.
They could see improvements in their day to day lives. Ever tried carrying enough water for a family for a day? It’s tough going.
I think of some of the women who write on our site - quite a few of them the first in their families ever to be able to read or write in any language.
Then this pack of armed foreigners came in and undid all the hard-earned progress. Now some of those same foreigners are saying “oh we broke it, which means we own it, so we have to stay and fix it” blithely ignoring - just like the bushites do - the rights and opinions of the people who actually live their and who know damn well what the problem is and who caused it.
Sometimes the bigggest part of the answer is recognising that you are the problem
As a programmer (and knowing a lot of engineers), I can tell what I think is the most common trap: settling on a (falsely) simplifying model, and then taking complex set of actions (because almost everywhere, the model doesn’t really fit, so you tweak and adjust…). Actions should be simple. If they’re not, you’ve got the wrong model.
There are times when I feel “gamed” by my political party.
Ian you can defend yourself, but it seems to me you meant this in reference to development. IANADE (I am not a development expert), but from my general economics background and the small amount of reading I’ve done on development, the reason why these projects never worked is because they weren’t related to the totally of what was happening in the country where the “experts” recommended they be put. Most of them turned out to be like grafting on a foreign body part. Development economists have been far too mechanistic in their approach.
Kind of like thinking that one election = democracy.
cahuenga @ 25
Yes, you can get any answer you want, but that includes the “right” answer. Like using any tools. If you use them right, you’re more likely (though not guaranteed) to get the desired outcome.
cahuenga @ 25
FWIW, I think economics masquerades as quantitave analysis but is really a study of human behavior. A valuable study. But ultimaly not quantitative.
sorry, OT truth/consequence/gaming the system… just returned from a run on 4 Target Stores, looking for dirty rotten scoundrels fraudulently gathering signatures to the split CA’s electoral college votes. 3 of the 4 stores had petitioners out front, but only one had the giant rubber band bunch (the other 2 were another group not collecting on that petition). Ran into my buddy “Travis” from the other day… so, I was spotted immediately and couldn’t tell if they were doing the job properly.
Some of both actually. As with psychology, or sociology, or politics. gotta know when to use to quant & when to use the qual.
eCAHNomics @ 28
I think you and I are saying the same thing, in fact most investments DO work, it’s when assets are grafted and called “investments” when they are nothing of the sort..that’s when an “investment doesn’t work
the new deal, roads, parks, water works bridges tunnels, obviously these investments work
I believe that one of the crucial ingredients in creating a strong post-war economy in Japan (and South Korea as well) was the introduction of vigorous labor unions.
perris@33
Quibble: many investments work.
Perris - you give a guy who would’ve flunked out of Yale without his family connections and a guy who would’ve flunked out of Yale but dropped out instead way too much credit. Yes, they’re profiteering and all that, but they’re doing what they’re doing out of a poisonous combination of stupidity and moronic ideology.
OT, but the firefighters of NYC are considering a 527 to fight Rude-y.
TV made him a hero, and we’ll use TV to take him down.
eCAHNomics @ 35
yup, sorry, u r right
I really, really, think I know what I think I know, when it comes to the Bush administration’s actions over the last seven years. And I really, actually think I know, what I think I know, about many Democrat’s collusion with the Republicans over the same past even years. And it’s for sure I know I am a disgruntled Democrat.
eCAHNomics @ 29
Here’s the thing, in economics conditions are never reproducible. There are no natural laws or universal constants. So theories can never be proven to be right or wrong. Economic theory can’t accurately model any system that has so many irrational variables, meaning psychology.
Meiji Resotration in 1860s went a long way to modernize Japan, and judging by its military its was pretty industrialized by WWII.
GordonM @ 36
I give neither the credit
I give the credit to the sick, maniacal and moronic members of the sadist fraternity known as the pnac
bush and cheney are morons who are clueless puppets, stings being pulled by their marionttes who laugh and laugh and laugh
Perris’s comments at 24 give me the creeps.
I worry that he is absolutely correct - the mess we are in now is deliberate. It is not a mess for the people who are making huge amounts of money, and the fact that most of the rest of us are either hurting or in danger of being hurt (lacking things like habeas corpus and privacy)is of no concern to them.
Bush’s policies are so boldly and relentlessly antiAmerican, that I have long wondered whose interests he really serves. Kim Philby and the Cambridge 5 were ultimately caught, after years of damage. However, there’s no rational reason to believe that they were the only ones or that all of the people who were co-opted were British.
I hope those thoughts are nonsense and that I only have them because my tinfoil hat has just been polished.
cahuenga @ 40
Economics is a social science. Same caveats apply to both. Scientific methodolgy is still the preferred approach, knowing that the confidence interval around the “answer” will be much larger than in a hard science.
It all depends on what the definition of “we” is.
Ian,
Folks here know that I’ve been experimenting with a technology that has the potential to alter the course of Civilization itself. Your post gave me much food for thought, and the above quote is indeed the essential question.
Thank You
Concerning investments. When one understands that 60% of stocks are owned by one percent, well… that fact seems to say a lot.
Anna Parenna @ 43
Actually, it’s worse than that. W et al don’t care what happens because they make buckets of dough whatever disaster occurs. So the issue of being “right” is irrelevant.
Anna Parenna @ 44
Don’t miss the Book Salon here tomorrow with Naomi Klein on her book, The Shock Doctrine.
eCAHNomics @ 32
Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics… Garbage in: garbage out… ;-)
Tax cuts improve the economy-Republicans point to JFK cutting taxes and say “see it works even a Democrat did it” What they don’t tell you is that for it to stimulate the economy they (the government)have to continue to spend the same or more while they are cutting taxes (ergo borrowing money). Kennedy increased the deficit with his cuts, so did Reagan. Bush’s problem is that thanks to free trade all the stimulus went to China. The largest employer in the State of Arizona is now Wal-Mart. That should tell you everything you need to know.
eCAHNomics~
There just doesn’t seem to be any consensus which to me is a confidence killer. Most analytical disciplines have a consensus opinion. The “experts in economics are all over the map, and seem to be more about molding economic theory to support a preexisting ideology rather than seeking any truth.
I know ‘bad’ when I ’see it’ and ‘think it’. Call it ‘empirical-rationalism’ if you will. Sort of an “a priori-experience”.
.
Thanks for the reminder. Have to go out & get it first thing. I’ve heard her on another venue, but it’ll be great to get more.
Anna Parenna @ 43
Per Wiki:
Harold Adrian Russell “Kim” Philby or H.A.R. Philby (OBE: 1946-1965), (1 January 1912 – 11 May 1988) was a high-ranking member of British intelligence, a communist, and spy for the Soviet Union’s NKVD and KGB.
In 1963, Philby was revealed as a member of the spy ring known as the Cambridge Five, along with Donald Maclean, Guy Burgess, Anthony Blunt and John Cairncross. Of the five, Philby is believed to have done the most damage to British and American intelligence, providing classified information to the Soviet Union that caused the deaths of scores of agents.
as ES @ 50 said:.
And if you haven’t bought the book yet, run out and get it tonight. It’s painful to read, but makes so much sense. Tomorrow is not to be missed.
Oh boy, Obama falls for the Novak article.
Great post with lots to chew on.
The word “gaming” is central to the operations of our leaders.
Gaming in politics, gaming in economics, gaming as in gambling ala Abramoff, gaming, as in “hunting”…What is “telling” is that Cheney, for example, “games”, “hunts”, by putting the prey in a no-win situation; the game is set up so that it cannot escape, and he can take his “cheap shot”, so that he can be sure to make the kill…then he feels all proud about his despicable hobby. That is exactly what has happened in Iraq. That is Neocon Homeland foreign policy. It is disgusting and ignorant of truth.
That is part of the mentality we are dealing with. Dishonorable conduct, to say the least.
The thing that they have not counted on, is that, unlike quail, the Iraqis are not going to be gamed forever. As events in Basra have shown, if you quit trying to kill them, they will calm down and survive. They will find their way to peace on their own terms, because they are Iraqis; even though this Administration has made every effort to use Shock and Awe and all of their other heinous methods to beat them into submission. They won’t submit…ever. Ever.
You don’t know what you don’t know. That’s why people are always saying, “I didn’t know that.”
clamberite @ 51
tax cuts are never tax cuts, they are investments, the principle must be returned with interest
and they only work when they are targeted toward a particular industry or field that needs growth
for instance, you lower taxes for alternative fuel industry and for medical research
however when that industry thrives they have to return the investment with interest, unless that principle was paid with some residual flow that the industry created
for instance, if we invest in alternative fuel and therefore become energy independant, we will get the return back from military spending and the alternative industry doesn’t have to pay the principle investment back directly
but tax reductions must be specifically targeted for it to actually have an economic benefit
Hate to throw water on your theory that the people building the power plants were well intentioned. They were built by Enron and their ilk, pushed through locally via massive bribery and corruption and often threats from the US govt. The deals tended to guarantee that the Enrons made huge amounts of money, with no realistic assessment of what the population could pay.
At least that’s true of the ones I know about.
OK, Perris, but the guys at pnac aren’t geniuses either. If they were, we would already have toppled Syria, Iran and a few others. Agree absolutely they’re evil with no respect for anything but power. It has not gone according to plan, and it’s getting worse for them by the minute. Unfortunately, there’s a few million people between them and the consequences that belong to them.
cahuenga @ 52
OK. Let me try this as an explanation. Do you think there’s any consensus in poli sci? I don’t. So let me pair poli sci & economics against other social sciences like psychology. The difference might be that there are real stakes in the former but not in the latter. You can make money by getting your econ theory enforced or power thru politics. Or fame if you’re a pundit pushing your ideology. There’s really a lot more consensus among serious professionals (though the rot is getting deeper & deeper) than what you see in the MSM.
Just about every respectable economist laughed at the Laffer curve. What W is doing is far outside the mainstream of both economics & politics.
You’ll never find as tight a consensus as you will for Newton’s gravity laws. And for some reason it’s much harder to kill off failed hypotheses in economics & politics than in science.
Can we then postulate that the Bush crowd are just ‘post-modernists’? And if that’s the case, can we then conclude the same about the economic philosophy of the DLC?
Moon @ 59
That’s funny. LOL What I meant is how to you know to get info if you don’t know that you don’t have it. I remember a study I saw a few years ago done in Harlem by a professor and his students. One thing that stuck in mind was that they found children who did not know what a toothbrush was. I was shocked and amazed and started to wonder about knowing.
Moon @ 59
There’s a Rumsfeld quote in there somewhere.
Loo Hoo. @ 58
I don’t like Obama. And the other one.
Loo Hoo. @ 13
That’s a big post. But basically the Japanese did a version of mercantalism. Also, they did use outside experts, but they took odd bits from them, and then sent them home, they didn’t keep them around.
Oh year, we’ve come this far without the most important quote on this subject from the horses mouth:
When you start there, where do you suppose you’ll end up?
GordonM @ 62
I agree, this has not gone close to their plan, they thought they could steal and nobody would be the wiser
it’s gone worse as far as image then they planned but it’s gone better as far as profit
what we can only hope for is the final failure…that beng we federalise all assets aquired by war profiteers, we regain all middle class dollars that were given to wealthy, we get those dollars from those that the assets were given to
we rebuild our infrastructure, we brind these criminals to the bar of justice and we abuse anyone of thinking they had anything but a moron’s point of view
if we do THAT, then they’ve failed, if we do NOT, then they’ve gained more then they expected to gain at the bargain price of loosing their image as intelects
Beerfart Liberal @ 3
just an aside… this was all over MSM yesterday, the interesting thing was an interview with a guy who did one tour and when they called him up for a second one, he took off for Canada where he is to this day. Interestingly, he said if they had wanted to send him to afghanistan he would have gone, but the the iraq thing, he just couldn’t bring himself to support that one. Here’s to him and those like him.
Ian Welsh @ 68
Mecantilism was the favored method of western countries during the Industrial Revolution.
burnspbesq @ 15
Use the same policies that worked for Japan and for the Asian tigers and for China - manufacturing driven export mercantalism behind tariff barriers. Except for city states it’s the only method that worked (the US certainly used it.)
Loo Hoo. @ 38
And I hope they do. “America” loves the first responders a whole lot more than they “love” Ghouliani. His fame was on their backs, and they have bucked him off bigtime. I hope every firefighter in this entire country gets the word and that they stick together. NYPD too.
eCAHNomics @ 66
Heh, “… the known knowns, and, the unknown knowns…!” 8~)
First:
Thanks to Ian for his insights here.
Second:
I have had thoughts along a similar path since 2003.
I really did not think there was enough money available to justify the war profiteer explanation for the mistakes about WMD, AQ/Sadaam etc.
And so, I kept looking for alternative explanations for the agression.
Turns out I was wrong; there’s plunder aplenty.
Occams razor coupled with the old “follow the money” approach explain everything.
Whether Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Powel were willing dupes or just dupes, the cause and effect are the same.
eCAHNomics @ 70
When you start there, where do you suppose you’ll end up?
19 guys…boxcutters…from
AfghanistanIraqIran….and they lived happily ever after….Ian, … *shakes head in admiration*
Can we say that Richard Nixon was the ultimate anti-Mercantilist?
Elliott @ 19
Managing what you can measure means that if you can’t measure something you don’t manage it. The most extreme academic example would be behaviouralism, where since “interior experience” couldn’t be accurately measured it was posited to not matter.
When dealing with corporations I have often run into “we can’t measure that” when dealing with issues like good customer service, reputation, trust, etc… And yet those things have huge long term effects on the companies profitability. (Or to be more preceise, you can measure those things indirectly, but they numbers are imprecise and harder to get than process numbers.)
CTuttle @ 76
Actually, ‘unkown knowns’ is the one he missed.
eCAHNomics @ 23
Yes, I’m essentially a modernist and I had little trouble figuring out what was going on.
*recedes into catatonia wondering what happened to Whitehouse, or how appearances from a few months ago could have been so deceptive*
eCAHNomics @ 63
You’ll never find as tight a consensus as you will for Newton’s gravity laws. And for some reason it’s much harder to kill off failed hypotheses in economics & politics than in science.
Oh I know. But that isn’t how it is used in our popular culture. In use it is wielded like a science. Need I mention the perennial “trickle down/supply side” BS that is regularly floated.
GordonM @ 82
And the WMD’s north of the south of the west of the east of the north of the south…hang a right and make an illegal U-turn…
Cogito ergo sum. I am no longer concerned with whether the light goes off after the refrigerator door closes or naught.
behindthefall @ 84
Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!
Anna Parenna @ 44
There not and Perris right to say things he said, I just finished Noami Kliens book and it filled in the holes. The gool in the plan is to break the will of the people and then steal everything you can for you and your friends. Just look at what the vendors walk away with Trillos of dollars and still counting and who tro say the next occupant of the WH won’t Freidman economist fan.
jo6pac
Germany and Japan had Unions and a closed country everything was made/grown there. It wasn’t until a few years ago the Japan open some things up to outsiders. They also brought Dr. Demming in to help.
cahuenga @ 85
But here we’re trying to figure out what we know, not what they’re trying to brainwash us with. Don’t confuse propaganda with legitimate work.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
Coitus ergo sum.
perris@24
Yeah, I over-generalized.
Borrowing to invest in the infrastructure for development purposes, from foreign sources, has almost never worked for developing countries. Borrowing to build large factories doesn’t work. The apparent exceptions are in resource extraction economies and they’re only apparent, those countries aren’t developed - they are 3rd world countries with inflated GDP. When thier resource goes away or is no longer needed, the wealth will turn out to be illusionary.
Or, as they say in Saudi Arabia:
My grandfather rode a camel.
My father had a car.
I fly in a plane.
My grandchildren will ride camels.
(Or some such, I may be mangling the joke, but you get the idea.)
LS @ 85
Dang, you’re on the right track…! ;-)
When the fear calms down, my gut knows and it relates it to my egoic mind, then they have a big fight and all that stuff….I try to go with the gut. It is not easy to be a human being.
GordonM @ 81 Actually, ‘unkown knowns’ is the one he missed.
Here’s the unknown known, once again…
The pursuit of continuity underlies all behavior, strange though it may seem.
Insert example here:_____
1. eCAHN @ 48 Actually, it’s worse than that. W et al don’t care what happens because they make buckets of dough whatever disaster occurs. So the issue of being “right” is irrelevant.
2. State Dept official asks to cancel Blackwater hearing
3. Mexico drug hitmen snatch buddy’s body from morgue
4. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it! “~}
Ian Welsh @ 92
The bedouins say, all you need to survive is a date and a camel. They also say, don’t count your camels, they consider that bad luck.
cahuenga @ 25
At one point I wanted to write a book about “Economics as Divination”. In some respects it’s not a lot different from the highly trained Roman Haruspices, with their manuals, digging around in animal guts to divine the future.
Ian Welsh @ 96
I liked the Greeks’ Oracle at Delphi…
To the resident economists, one question then I gotta go:
Real median income for men has been absolutely flat for 33 years. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush…. Absolutely flat. Does domestic economic policy not in fact change between administrations or ????
eCAHNomics @ 42
Yes, modernaziation started with Meiji. Post World War II Japan was rebuilding a society that had already industrialized then continuing on to even greater heights. The basic policies were the same, but even easier to do, since they didn’t have to invade countries to force down tariff barriers any more — the US let their goods in.
There’s a certain irony to that.
Ian Welsh @ 92
May Bush - Cheney, et al, finish their days as used camel salespersons.
(’Right’ or ‘Wrong’, certainly no other ‘Justice’ will be metted them.)
This, out of Bernard Kerik’s book via HuffPo:
Then Giuliani gave Kerik the news: He would announce the next day that he was appointing Kerik deputy corrections commissioner. The promotion would make Kerik the No. 2 man at the agency overseeing the city’s prisons and lockups. Kerik balked, worried about his qualifications, but Giuliani insisted. “Just do this,” the mayor said. “Do what I’m telling you.” Relenting, Kerik agreed, but as he tells the story in his autobiography, what happened next was a little creepy. “In this dark sitting room, one by one, the mayor’s closest staff members came forward and kissed me. I know the mayor is as big a fan of The Godfather as I am and I wonder if he noticed how much becoming part of his team resembled becoming part of a Mafia family. I was being made. I was now a part of the Giuliani family, getting the endorsement of the other family members, the other capos.”
cahuenga @ 99
Anti-union policy & monetary policy* are the main culprits and, no, those didn’t change with different administrations. Other aspects of economic policy have changed with different administrations.
*Actually it was inflationary Federal Reserve policy of the 1970s that did the most damage to real wages, as prices went up much faster than wages.
clamberite @ 52
Tax cuts work sometimes. At that point tax rates in the US were very high. You could make a good argument for lowering them. Right now the situation is reversed.
Republicans seem to think that there’s always A ANSWER no matter what the situation. No, the answer differs depending on circumstances. I can see times I might argue for tax cuts, but right now I’m almost always for progressive tax increases at the federal level in the US, because the progressivity is far too low for either economic or democratic help.
A Saudi/Qatar friend of mine recounted a story…one of a few…
He told me, prior to 9/11, that Saudi princes met with Western business/political types (he knew, because he was connected). The Saudis made them drive far out into the desert in SUV’s for the meeting. When there, they met in a tent. The Saudis made it perfectly clear that they knew how to negotiate the desert, that the Westerners could only return to their “hotels” dependent upon the “gas” that the Saudis provided. The Westerners tried to threaten them, and the Saudis told them that they had lived in their land for thousands of years and could survive perfectly well without the Westerners, because they understood their environment. They loved being in the tent, they loved being in the desert, they loved their land, and they could be quite happy if they had to live that way. The Westerners were dependent. The Saudis know this, and so do the Iraqis.
The Republicans are fond of saying they are fond of “market-forces”. And what many of the ‘less fortunate’ (not rich) are experiencing today, is the result of that phenomenon.
Ian Welsh @ 96
well if I gutted one of my sheep and found it all aworm, I might suggest moving to a different area, so there’s a little something to “divination” isn’t there?
Sorry, not out of Kerik’s book, Jason Linkin’s article.
Elliott @ 107
Ooooh…Ian…interesting!!!
eCAHNomics @ 70
When you start there, where do you suppose you’ll end up?
You can live in your own reality as long as the resources hold out. Rich people often do so. But when there’s no more money, all the people who made the real world stay away, go away.
The same is essentially true in economics and finance. You can reward yourself billions of dollars for selling debt instruments, but at the end of the day if the underlying debt is shaky, there will be a price to pay.
Of course, if you’re smart, you’re gone by then.
But if the entire system collapses and hundreds of million of Americans (and foreigners) pay the price, you may find that your millions or billions have made you a complete pariah.
eCAHNomics @ 73
Yup. Then after they’ve got mature economies they run around trying to tell developing economies to drop their tariff barriers, not subsidize manufacturing etc… What’s good for teh goose is apparently not good for the gander.
For a little extra hobby activity…google…Saudi princes, falcon hunting, Bin Laden.
Interesting stuff.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
A reespectable economist would remid that “market forces” only “work” under textbook conditions of atomistic perfect competition. Of course, such conditions never are present,, which is why regulation is required for any kind of efficiently functioning economy (letting aside the problem of the regulated capturing the regulators for the moment). Of course, what the Rs want is not market forces but forces where the strong suppress the poor. “Market forces” used by the Rs is just as much sloganeering as their use of “democracy building.” Both give the real thing a dirty name.
eCAHNomics @ 67
There is a newish learning disability diagnosis (my son was found to have it) on teh sharp rise in US called NVLD — Non verbal learning disability. One of the key features of this right brain malfunction is tha t” ….you don’t know what you don’t know”. sseriously, for example, a student will dutifully nod their head in “comprehension” all through the lecture, and will not know until tested whether or not he actually ‘got it”. Can’t put the info together, right left brain not communicating. The diagnosis for this is soaring in schools in the us. Any conclusions?
cahuenga @ 99
There was a fairly firm economic management consensus that ran from Carter to Clinton. Bush ran under a modified version of it, and has probably broken the system. When you look back this will be seen as the administration that broke the US economy, I strongly suspect.
I also expect economic historians to do backwards revisions to US economic stats which will show the decline actually started in the late Clinton years. My late friend Oldman took out all the hedonics, added in asset inflation and came to the conlusion that by late 90’s the US’s GDP was actually in decline.
Bush has accelerated that extremely. I simply do not believe the official inflation numbers.
Don’t you just love “The Truth in Lending Act”. And its application especially.
kittykitty @ 114
and someone with NVLD will NEVER be able to say “I didn’t know that” cause they didn’t know they didn’t know and can’t say that even once you point out they didn’t know. By the way, NVLDers are very very talkative, very verbose.
Ah yes, economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources we must remind ourselves.
Of course if you have the full productive and borrowing capacity of the U.S. at your beck & call, the concept of scarce resources need not apply.
eCAHNomics @ 49
Isn’t that a perfect hedge?
So true. Many people try to apply that line of thought to their medical treatment. They can very easily end up dead much sooner, but even worse, their life sucks much more while they have it.
If an “action” doesn’t have some kind of proven track record, it can very well be worse than nothing. That’s not to say that no one should ever go off the beaten path. On the contrary, it’s necessary to do so in order to advance. I favor taking risks and being brave. However, it should be informed. You should know when you are taking risks and have a good idea why.
Just “doing something” is not bravery. There is no bravery in willful ignorance. Bravery is taking on a risk you understand, not one you don’t understand.
LS @ 105
That’s over simple. The Saudis in particular are in for a world of hurt when the oil runs out or is no longer all that important. Their population is too large for the land to support in anything but the most grinding of poverty and they have not created (and probably can’t create, under these circumstances) a robust non-oil based economy.
Hey. What’s the problem? Caveat emptor.
kittykitty @ 114
I’ve seen that. Always assumed it was essentially short term memory. They follow A to B and B to C, but by then they’ve forgotten how they got to B.
SunnyNobility @ 119
You got it. Were you the same person who left the same comment a day or so ago. I think it’s exquisitely perceptive.
LS @ 105
t’would be kind of interesting to know the opinion of the more recent generations who have not grown up in the desert and have never had any experience of a life that is not as opulent as the one they now know.
the wealth of the “middle east” is windfall wealth.
thank you for an essential post.
the paucity of accurate public info is a handicap for all.
I tend to agree with Perris @24. The oligarchs ARE succeeding. I think it’s impossible to see things clearly if you continue to think of global politics in terms of national divisions. Global politics is a game played by resource cartels. The petrol cartels, the diamond cartels, the weapons cartels, the drug cartels, etc. The Bushes and their ilk don’t actually identify their personal interests with those of the citizenry of this country, any more than the Sauds identify with theirs.
I haven’t read Socrates’ Cafe, but I’ve studied Plato intensively for more than ten years, and find the dialogues to be remarkably relevant to contemporary events. In my view, Plato, through Socrates, is highly critical of international trade, the monetary policies that arise from it, and, especially in the mediterranean, the maritime culture that facilitates and defends it. I do not buy the criticisms that reactionary academics level at the Republic, that it advocates a proto-fascist or proto-communist constitution. I know for a fact that it is a pro-democracy philosophy, because it is only in a democracy that people are free to rule themselves.
As to the question How do we know what we know? I think Socrates’ answer is that, in fact, we do NOT know. At least, not in the sense that we tend to think we do. We believe and opine. We act without knowledge. The worst consequences of this are mitigated only by a strong understanding that we do not know. All I know is that I do not know. Science is not a way around this. Socrates abandoned science for several reasons, not the least of which is science’s silence with regard to questions of value. In modern terms, the criticism is that the same science that allows the construction of the bomb cannot tell us when to use it. One aspect of the Socratic method, the elenchus, is not a means by which to arrive at objective truth Positively expressed, but a means by which to lead one to reconsider the full consequences of beliefs unexamined and held primarily for their usefulness in rationalizing illegitimate power relations. The method intends, in the most extreme cases, to render the believer paralyzed with doubt. Barring this, Socrates is not above outright shaming of his opponents. Such doubts and pangs are often the only thing standing between us and the worst kinds of injustice. The true tyrant is beyond both doubt and shame. The only thing worse than a tyrant is a tyrant who is given the opportunity to rule.
I suppose the joke’s on us. The Bush (m.b.a) school of economics was re-elected.
kittykitty @ 114
That is seriously important. I would only venture to throw out a really ignorant, indeed stupid, idea that the lack of development of the freedom of creativity, used in one side of the brain, is somehow compromised developmentally as compared to an increased emphasis on other brain-sided education. Arts have been seriously curtailed as well as simple “play”…imagination learning periods have been replaced by “schooling” at too early an age age…something like that. Not to mention crappola food additives. It would be interesting to know if other societies are experiencing this as well. I’m sorry you are having such a thing entering into your family. It bears serious examination.
GordonM @ 123
they actually have amazing memories. my son remembers everything. he used to come home from school exhausted from memorizing everything, everything, he can’t edit the imprtant from the triviial. It’s pretty interesting and can be tragic for a bright kid trying hard.thank god he’s such agreat musician. My pooint is that i wonder is this isn’t a national phenomenon. What are the national repercusssions? I mean you can talk to people til you’re blue in teh face and they jsut don’t see that it’s an issue of knowledge>
eCAHNomics @ 113
Good enough. ;0)
Ian Welsh @ 121
I understand what you are saying, but that is the way they look at it. It is a true story. The point is, they feel that they can survive whether they are rich or not, because they already know how to in their particular envirnoment. Oil revenues are actually icing on the cake for them. They know how to live without it, and they survived then too. Poverty vs rich, is not the issue. It is cultural.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 130
Honestly, I often feel like liberals have to rescue real free markets from the conservatives. They don’t want free markets, they want markets without government intervention so that they can form oligpolies and rake in monopoly profits. They’re nothing but rent-seekers.
It doesn’t take an economist to figure out that giving the super rich and the corporate robber barons tax cuts while borrowing from China to finance a failed war is not a good idea.
The obvious answer to consumer complaint’s about credit card debt, is to up the credit limit.
LS @ 131
I don’t think most of their kids have that mindset, really. Could be wrong, but the generation that remembers poverty is going away.
Ian Welsh @ 81
can’t measure it/can’t manage it…. PTSD.
LS @ 128
actually both my son and i find it pretty interesting. NVLDs tend to be very creative. And he is a brilliant jazz musician. Entire family of artists. NVLDs just need rubrics for diagramming information and they’re great students. Here’s the thing, and Bush can kiss my ass here (as well as all the Education colleges), teh rubrics end up looking like teaching used to be here. Chronological, logical outlinable stuff. He’s a really good student now, just needed some tutoring,. It’s a spatial issue, they can do algebra not geometry. anyway, thanks for your comments. didn’t mean to go there. I thnk you’re right about the arts in schools, i know you are. just wanted to put that info out there cause americans don’t know that they don’t know, not just what they don’t know.
falasafa@126
Hypothesis testing did not exist in Socrates’ time. Science was a very different item back then. Stemmed from first principles & implications.
You are right, of course, that science is sterile wrt values. Only the foolish ever thought that it could answer “should” as well as “how to.”
This is the Iraq test as well. Obviously the NeoCon/Bush understanding of the Iraq occupation and war is wrong. Why? Because it isn’t working. They’re losing.
I gotta play Devil’s Advocate and disagree with you. The Neocon’s had planned on a 10-15 year occupation at minimum. And the war is working based on THEIR agenda. Wolfowitz stated in Vanity Fair 2003, “For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.” and almost unnoticed but huge” - namely that the ousting of Saddam would allow the United States to remove its troops from Saudi Arabia…
Saddam made two huge mistakes that provided the US justification to invade. 1. He gave the US the finger when he changed the petro-currency from US dollars to Euros. 2. He lied about WMD’s (to protect Iraq from Iran). This provided Powell with credibility and got the UN on board. With the UN’s approval the the US could legally invade Iraq with the Coalition of the Willing.
The gains: 1.We invaded and US troops were removed from Saudia Arabia and planted in Iraq. 2. A US embassy the size of the Vatican built to oversee US
interestsoil in the Mideast. 3.The second largest oil reserves,Iraq, under US Control. 4. The US dollar hegemony in petrocurrency remains, for now. Iran never opened the Oil Bourse to trade in euros. 5. The Persian Gulf is home to US naval military exercises.It all depends how how you define winning and losing.
kittykitty @ 129
this ability has been around since always,the pre-literate societies had such people as their history keepers.
the bards,the elders,the story keepers were known to be able to recite books worth of information.
it gives me the pip when i think that such abilities are now disregarded and belittled.
Our ‘knowledge’ compares to a small, cloudy mud puddle, our ignorance to all the oceans of the world.
It is only our hubris which convinces us otherwise, that and our all-too-common habit of thinking ourselves more-advanced than our earliest ancestors.
kittykitty @ 129
Can he distinguish between what is relevant/not relevant to a situation or problem?
Could the teaching be the problem?
Metacognition (knowing what you know) can be taught, but it ain’t easy.
LS @ 131
this makes me think of the gitlin post earlier today. we could learn a thing or two from the saudis and their confidence, bluff or no. Let the wafflling on impeachment dems know we don’t need them with teh same confidence the saudis challenged these guys in the tent? THEN we might see the dems singin a different tune.
Is there a time when we/they finally catch on? The whole “game”, not just the economics part, is terribly close to the “emperor has no clothes” that we have been engaged in for years now. I have been reading about the first Thanksgiving and how many pilgrims had died. So the remant was giving thanks for those they had loved and lost and having survived the winter/gotten some crops, etc. This Thanksgiving, if this is not an obscene parallel, I am going to be thankful that we are almost at the end of one more of the “annis terriblis”, as the Queen said. (Not exactly that, but close.) This insane era of W is almost over; remember watching the vote counting, the lawsuits, Baker, and the attorneys. Remember when the court stopped the vote counting one Saturday morning (the beginning of the end), then the horrendous Gore/Bush opinion. Will we get our country back? Has the court ever been sorry? But our clown Pres. is about to run out his time. If he stays out of jail, he can go fill up his coffers..heh, heh. Can you imagine folks paying money to hear him give a speech? The man can’t put a sentence together. No wonder you call if “gaming.” And Cheney can go back to Halliburton and get big bonuses that can’t buy him a heart or soul.
Kirk upstairs.
kittykitty @ 129
Interesting. They say that intelligence is largely a matter of being able to recognize and discard trivia, keeping only the important information. I wonder if TV isn’t destroying our ability to observe.
I remember being very impressed when Leakey said that his amazing finds were because he was trained to observe by his upbringing among African tribesmen.
Of Ian, we are in danger of becoming soul-mates. I have often had this thought in recent years.
Wingnut Free Market Concept is a hoax perpetrated on the working class. Wingnut Free Market Concept is really socialism. When big industry “fails” or pretends to fail - it gets a big fat welfare check from the Federal Government - ergo the taxpayers. When a worker fails, he gets a big fat kick in the ass and a lecture on free markets and the requirement that he needs to pick himself up by the bootstraps.
50 percent of the American public are proponents of this hoax that is being played on them thanks to de-education and the MSM.
FYI, new post upstairs
RockPaperScizzors @ 139
you nailed it. really nailed it.
may @ 140
i must tell my son this when he comes home! thanks.
kittykitty @ 151
There’s a passage in the bible about the invention of writing and how it will change what it means to be learned from people who actually know things to people who look them up. Can’t remember where it is (old testament).
Fern @ 142
i would say he’s as good at distinguishing relevant vs irrelevant as any 21 year old. He’s really such a poet though. Mostly it’s visual spatial overload that gets him. can’t make sense. NVLDs tend to not look you in the eye when they’re really listening hard to what you’re saying becuase trying to figure out what your face is telling them is too great a distraction from comprehending your words. He’s outgrown that now pretty much. He;s sure capable of listening to politicians and hearing their lies all on his own. Has a fine ear for hypocrisy of anykind. Keen judge of people too. so whatever that tells you. All this got better after tutor who knew what she was doing, hard to find.
He know what he know, just doesn’t know when he doesn’t know. if you “know” what i mean. thanks
Ian, Thank you for your posts. They are enlightening and provocative. You’ll perhaps never see this, but I just had to say it.
SunnyNobility @ 154
Ditto! Ian is the thoughful persons’ favorite economist. I do wish that he and Kirk Murphy were ‘on’ on different nights, or at least not posted so-closely together. Just a nit-pick.
Am I on the tail-end of comments because I live in the Other Washington? Anyway, invigorating post, and insightful. And where did Shooter think those flowers to be strewn before us might be grown?
Ian Welsh @ 81
There’s also the example of the guy looking for his lost keys under the streetlight instead of off in the dark where he actually lost them because “It’s too dark over there.”
There’s a beautiful book called The Fifth Discipline: The Art and Practice of the Learning Organization, by Peter Senge. It explains among other things that for service organizations, there is only one metric, one proper measurement to pay attention to; Customer Satisfaction.
It’s unbelievably hard to sell this notion, because managers love to think what they do is all a great complexity, and sales-managers especially will never give up the notion that cheerleading and exhortation to hit targets is what their good at. This sort of thinking also leads to a kind of catch-22, “Tell me how you’ll measure my performance, and then I’ll tell you how I’ll act.”
Make your customers happy, measure how happy they are with your ‘product’ by asking them how happy they are with your product. If they are not perfectly happy, (100% happy) then good, you’ve got room for improvement, and you have an ‘opportunity’, something to work on.
A company making a reasonable profit creating happy customers 95% of the time is in a better position than it’s competition who’s margins are bigger but whose customers are only 60% happy with them.
Incidentally, teams whose customers are less than 30% happy with them sometimes decide to make a lot of money prior to going out of business. I think that’s what BushCo is doing now.
Yes, people say they want good customer service, but what they measure is how fast CSRs get people off the line, how fast they process requests, how much time they spend on the phone, whether inboxes are clean, etc…
They measure whatever the system can easily measure.
And then they reward it. And so you get the “how may I disconnect your call” behaviour that CSRs are notorious for, because they’re production workers and if they spend too much time with you, their performance is judged subpar.
Perris/Anna, I have to say that one part of each of your comments that really concerns me and I’m surprised at how little I read about is the Privatization of the Military. The Rightist argue against social programs because they say that the Constitution limits the government to very few functions-one being the funding of the Military. It would seem that paying Blackwater types hugh sums of money is a way of stealing Federally trained military experts at taxpayers expense and another way for NeoCons to undermine the Constitution. Without truely supporting our troops they create the justifications for mercinaries.
What will happen when the day comes when a President orders his Private Army against an American Civil population? Who would stop them? No one seems to have authority over them in Iraq.
The US is running out of surplus, as are its middle and poorer classes. The Cheney/Bush administration has accelerated that trend significantly, isolating only the people in George’s tax bracket from its affects.
Another thought: we all possess seperate realities that form “what we know.” This is from experience, but referenced from a socio-economic - cultural - perspective. Has it “worked” before has a very cultural perspective and cost-benefit diagram. What I do know is that creating a reality with little base; i.e., the Iraq WMD problem, will generally catch-up with you. The option then is to keep changing the reality (”we are in Iraq to topple Saddam ..”). But, lies built on lies, like a house built on sand, will eventually collapse whatever the lies supported. Because, they were lies and not even the “truth” to begin with and were not pertinent to “what you know” in reality.
burnspbesq @ 15
Protect property rights & Re-engage the white farmers. Yhey were the biggest industry in the country, and built it up from nothing, they can do it again.
burnspbesq @ 15
First, and foremost, NOBODY ever has ALL of the levers of power. Particularly, the people have their own will and needs and capabilities — those don’t disappear unless you destroy the people.
Second, government doesn’t have enough power to manage for people. People have to be free enough to do it for themselves and, in our experience, government should observe and govern to protect, not to control or dominate.
Third, government should inspire, not scare; government should enable, not red tape; government should even the playing field, not play favorites.
We specifically limit government with our Constitution because the founders of our government understood the people are it and must be free to live their lives and government is only a tool for them.
One of the key arguments of our time is whether socialist or Liberal programs to enable and assist people are really effective or are just “big government” and (almost by definition) are bad. Hopefully we can find ways to achieve enabling or empowering without overpowering Society. After all, if we can manage with a small government, then it means we can keep more money/wealth for ourselves and that, as they say, is a good thing.
neokneme @ 18
Fascinating. I’ve never seen it put so succinctly and well.
Psychotherapist Milton Erickson said we never realize how truly habitual we are. We run on habits.
If we truly desire continuity and our habits enable us to achieve that (to some degree), then it explains why change can be difficult. Much more difficult would be the paradigmatic change. Consider the change in worldview of someone from ‘the old country’ who came to America in the early 1900s or someone released from the Soviet Union to Western Europe or America. How would they adjust? Only direct experience could ease them into it over time. They certainly couldn’t have imagined it very well before it occurred.
Do we crave ‘more of the same’? How much do you really want something new that you intellectually think about and say you want?
Change your life experiences and you will become a different person!
Change who you are, your identity, and you will change!
Repeat after me, “I am a Democrat. I am a Progressive.” Does it sound foreign or acceptable? If you actually accept that, then how can your behavior not change?
Can you will yourself to change, as someone who ‘accepts Jesus as his savior’ expects their life to change?
Indeed, a wonderful topic for discussion.
Jonathan @ 31
Listening to Alan Greenspan I get the impression he sees economics somewhat similar to a software engineer who wants to model a real-world behavior or system. First you understand the behavior (humans, businesses, transactions, effects) and then you look at the financial model which involves numbers, taxes, stock prices, interest rates, etc. Does the model really reflect the real world? Does the model get out of whack over time? What problems with the financial system hinder the real-world activities? Things like that.
I like that way of approaching it and I think it’s served us well for several decades. It’s only when they start meddling in politics that it becomes silly. Bernanke’s recent interest rate reduction smacks of that. The Fed interest rate climb in 2000 looked political. Stay away from politics and just do economics and I think the Fed (for example) does pretty well. Of course, in the ‘markets’ there are con men and thieves and people who aren’t looking to do traditional commerce, they’re trying to game the system as Enron did and as the mortgage-related businesses have.
perris @ 43
eCAHNomics @ 70
When you start there, where do you suppose you’ll end up?
People who make up their own reality are likely to forget gravity and will tend to fly off into space for no reason whatsoever.
Failing that, they must still be bound by reality, despite their protestations to the contrary.
In that fight “Reality” tends to win.
LS @ 78
19 guys…boxcutters…from
AfghanistanIraqIranPakistanCIABlackwater (maybe) ….and they lived happily ever after….Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
Don’t worry. Schroedinger’s cat will turn it off later.
kittykitty @ 114
I understand this “you don’t know what you don’t know” problem. You can bounce around inside your box all you want, do double summersaults, bounce off the walls, dance like Fred Astaire and the like, but if the box is too small the solution to your problem might not be found there. But, how do you know it’s not there until you’ve exhausted all the possibilities? How do you know you have to look elsewhere? And, since elsewhere is pretty big, how do you know which direction to go looking?
Observing how someone else has done it might lead you to a better backhand or nicer handwriting, but not necessarily. If the thing you want to do better is thinking, problem solving and creativity, then observing doesn’t get you anywhere.
Curiously enough, even if you listen to someone who has done it (whatever that might be) and consider the words they use, the ideas they say they use, the methods they use, it still doesn’t mean your definitions of those words means the same thing as what they’re doing. What we do and what words we use to describe it aren’t always communicable.
It’s a problem.
RockPaperScizzors @ 139
Consider the soldiers who are dying: are they ‘losing’?
IIRC someone mentioned this to Bush and he said we shouldn’t presume a particular soldier who had died in combat would’ve had a better life if he hadn’t gone there.
So, dying in Iraq is the best of all possible worlds or at least you can’t prove it isn’t.
Of course, it is futile to respond to W opinions. But wouldn’t you think in his touted culture of life, that being alive is preferable to being dead? I know we do not expect him to make sense: commenting on the obvious, well, is a small pleasure. Part of the dilemma here is you cannot ask that soldier, who, no doubt would have an opinion.
I actually assumed he was being sarcastic in that last comment, though, of course, he could be serious.
The law of unintended consequences just won’t go away. Sometimes things can be anticipated, but you never know until you try. Cheney said the Iraqis would welcome us with flowers. It seemed unlikely, but to those guys it was worth a shot especially when Halliburton and Blackwater come out a lot richer no matter what.
There is a conflict between the individual and the collective. What profits the individual usually injures the group. It’s nothing new and is especially gratifying when the rich benefit at the expense of the poor. The poor don’t mind because they live under the illusion that someday they will be rich and do unto others. That a few actually make it every generation keeps the game going.
What a fun thread. For MarkH — Thanks for the feedback and your thoughts.
Everybody has their own point of view which is basically a physical/neural data structure. Our memories and experience inform our POV on a continuous basis.
The promise of conscious continuity is the underlying attraction to religion (eternal life), but culture itself is predicated on the same urgency — it exists in the minds of its cultural minions. That explains everything to me — war, hate, corruption, love…you name it — it is all subservient to the quest for continuity, and it overwhelms all “logic”.