Democratic Presidential candidates were supposed to debate each other last night, but for much of the evening, I thought the battle was between Hillary Clinton and the reporters CNN chose to help Wolf Blitzer read the indictments ask questions.
That contest wasn’t even close: Hillary won, while CNN made itself look worse than Tim Russert, which I didn’t think was possible.
In the headline event, Clinton proved once again why she’s a formidable candidate. Her two closest challengers may have lost their edge, while three second tier candidates — Biden (foreign policy expertise), Dodd (education and constitutional issues), and Kucinich (got it right the first time) — did well. It proved once again this group of Democrats makes the party look good, and that what the Party needs is a composite of the knowledge, wisdom, and foresight their candidates have to offer.
From the opening question, it seemed CNN had planned the evening as an opportunity to take down Hillary Clinton, with anti-Clinton talking points assumed as proven facts and then embedded in questions. Campbell Brown opened by asking Clinton why she “stumbled” so badly in the last debate, and that was followed by a question to Obama that was premised on why Clinton is so triangulating. Then we had questions on the Bill’s “boys” and the “gender card” and the obligatory Lou Dobbs demogoguery on drivers’ licenses for immigrants. That was followed by John Roberts, whose questions — “what about the awful teachers’ unions?” and “Isn’t Petraeus swell?” — illustrated why he’s known as a blatant Republican shill. Was that really “the best team on television?”
If CNN had a plan to discredit Clinton, it failed, instead allowing Clinton to prove again how well she can fend off the media assumptions while going toe-to-toe with opponents. I suspect Republicans, who might have had glimmers of hope watching the cable commentariat belittle Clinton “gaffes” for two weeks, are much more worried after last night.
It didn’t take long for the audience to impose its own rules, booing any candidate who seemed to make gratuitous personal attacks on others. After that, Edward’s continued efforts to imply Clinton is as personally corrupt as the system they all swim in probably didn’t help him with those not already in his camp.
I’m not sure when Obama and Edwards realized that attacking Clinton might be a two-edged sword, but her first counter to them on health care should have signaled the risks. When she was done, Obama had left out universal health care for the first four primary states, and Edwards was reduced to a johnnie-come-lately to the cause of universal coverage. Surely they must have known they’re facing one of the most disciplined, intelligent and prepared candidates they’ve ever seen. If they thought she would just stand there and take another beating, they were quickly proven wrong, and the fireworks ended early.
I was left wondering what happened to the much touted promise of Obama’s Iowa speech. Pundits and supporters have been reading much into the symbolism of his campaign, even to the point of suggesting his election would send a powerful message of possible reconciliation with the Muslim world. Whatever the Obama promise means — and I think its meaning is more in the hopes of his beholders than what he’s actually saying — I couldn’t find it last night.
Clinton remains most vulnerable on her Iraq and Iran votes, and she was challenged several times. Biden made a strong case against Kyl-Lieberman, while Obama added the point of explaining how that amendment might even be used as a pretext for remaining longer in Iraq. She gave her standard response, and while it doesn’t satisfy me, she’s been careful in her Iran/Iraq responses to keep Bush and Cheney as the targets; her answer has picked up her opponents’ points about using diplomatic leverage to prevent another war. It may be enough.
At the end of the debate, CNN’s post-debate analysts (ignoring Carville, a supporter to begin with) concluded that Clinton had come out ahead: she not only out-debated Obama and Edwards, she kept the crowd [and did it while fending off CNN's worst]. Just as important, all the previous claims about “gaffes” and poor debate performance were squashed. Even for an uncommitted skeptic, it was impressive.
If anyone else gained, it was the Dodd, Biden and “always right” Kucinich, and to the audience’ credit, their catcalls kept demanding these other candidates get speaking time. Dodd further helped his cause by answering an Hispanic audience member in Spanish [looking for a translation] on immigration, a sequence that probably has CNN’s anti-immigrant bully Lou Dobbs fuming. Biden showcased his expertise and experience, particularly on Pakistan.
Some questions the media should be asking itself this morning:
– Did the Beltway pundits just waste three weeks talking about inconsequential “gaffes” and “stumbles”? Because I don’t think those topics survived last night.
– How many opportunities do you want to give Hillary to speak to women about the meaning of her candidacy? Because I’ll bet she’s more than happy to do that. How’s that anti-gender card talking point working?
– How much did we learn about the candidates’ positions on key issues? For example, how many questions did CNN ask about the candidates’ plans for climate change? Oil dependence? Paying for Bush’s wars? Reversing the trade deficit? Tax reform? Models for health care? Torture? Mukasey? Illegal spying? Immunity for telecoms who helped the government spy on their customers? I’ll make it easy: zero, so the candidates had to sneak in answers anyway.
– Did you notice that every time CNN asked about the Administration’s failures, (1) the Dems had solutions and (2) their answers won huge applause and (3) impeachment is popular?
– And other than John Roberts, who has no business moderating a debate, was there any other angry bitch on the stage? Because I didn’t see one.
Update: The NYT has a helpful link to the videos and transcripts for each segment of the debate.
Photo at Nevada Democratic debate: AP/Jae C. Hong
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Good Morning Scarecrow!
Caw !
good morning to the Scarecrow – I think you’d find it difficult to fly here in Upstate NY this morning – 36 degrees and falling fast, windy and snowing hard.
morning all.
Sorry, Hillary just is not the one. Do not let your gender blind you to the fact that she voted for the Iraq funding meansure and has been too Slooooooow to come to even a moderate stance on our involvement in Iraq. Said she didn’t know. Bull, should have if she didn’t – but I knew, why didn’t she? Hell, even King George I tried to stop it.
Nope. Never will get my vote. Just Bush lite.
Good morning. Lurking here at work, enjoying the debate roundup.
media? ask itself? ha ha ha! did the cold front move through hell while i was sleeping?
Good morning.
Amy Goodman doing segment on FISA.
“It’s the media stupid”. When does a failed media become an issue in the campaign.
“… while CNN made itself look worse than Tim Russert, which I didn’t think was possible.”
Wrong.
Compared to Russert, CNN is bush league when it comes to biasing debates.
Roy E Pearson @ 5
Don’t ever assume here that gender is the reason for backing Hill. As much as I would like to see a woman in the Oval Office, she isn’t the one.
Good morning Scarecrow et al. A chill wind blowing through PA as well. Winter is coming but leaves are still on the trees. It’s been a slow fall.
Toby Wollin @ 3
It’s been raining here. But I’ve noticed the leaves are still on the trees, still turning; everything seems about 3 weeks later than usual.
Good morning everyone.
Alvord @ 10
Yes, but I’m not going to give that to CNN. They were terrible.
Craig Unger, Fall of House of Bush, next up on democracynow.
Still not a H. Clinton fan, although I’ll vote for her if she gets the nomination. I agree with the “Bush lite” statement upstairs.
My hope is that she’s tilting right for votes, but will move back left once in office.
One can hope, can’t one?
Scarecrow @ 13
They’ve both been pretty stupid. I’d love to see either of them treat the repigs the same way they treat the dems but I don’t see it happening. After all, they all go to the same party with the repigs afterwards and so they don’t want to hurt their feelings or make it an uncomfortable party scene.
John Roberts on CNN wondering why the mortgage crisis didn’t come up — then admits no one at CNN asked about it. Guess none of them has a sub-prime mortgage.
Craig Unger: Oedipus Tex. W put together cabinet of Poppy’s enemies.
STTP in Ohio @ 15
Hope all you want but remember she has Murdoch supporting her.
There used to be at least one televised debate presided over by the League of Women Voters (as I recall there are male members as well) and those debates were substantive. The questions were about the issues, candidates were given equal time, and there were rules to the debate which were applied across the board.
What we need is at least one televised LWV debate for each party before the primaries.
Thank you Scarecrow, I always enjoy your analyses. I missed a good bit of this debate getting the feed, will have to watch the replay.
You’re not fond of John Roberts, are you ;)
me either.
Good morning, Scarecrow;
The kids are happy; it’s snowing in Pittsburgh!
Kucinich deserves a least a mention – he was, and continues to be, the most authentic.
Clearly, the shift of opinion in HRC’s favor has begun. Is it warranted?
Seems like a dumbing-down of expectation. Or, mayhaps, resignation?
RevDeb @ 16
Funny clips on CNN this morning, showing John Roberts trying to get Clinton’s attention (while she’s greeting audience) and Obama’s — and he can’t figure out why both wanted to walk away from him.
Emma @ 20
a broadcast (non-cable) channel would be nice too
Scarecrow @ 23
can’t figure it out? How stupid is that, really?
Their lack of self-awareness is astounding.
STTP in Ohio @ 15
That would be pandering, yes?
BTW, I guess my Gore vs. Thompson 2008 race admittedly isn’t looking so good now; I never thought Fred the Actor wouldn’t bother to study his lines, and I didn’t think Gore could resist accepting a nomination that is his for taking.
Scarecrow,
If you ran the debate, who else would you invite to ask questions?
Did you notice that every time CNN asked about the Administration’s failures, (1) the Dems had solutions and (2) their answers won huge applause and (3) impeachment is popular?
and you know what? I think Kucinich is also popular not only for impeachment but for analysis of problems and solutions.
i didn’t see the debate but appreciate your thoughts.
john roberts? really. the guy should be offering insights on bay city roller videos.
well, I guess it’s pretty obvious why one of the most intelligent presidents in our history married Hillary
for the most part, intelligent men need a MATE, they do NOT need a MAID, intelligent men want to share their lives and be each others universe, they do not want a satalite hovering under them, they want to share life’s experience and therefore double the experience in their lives
Hillary MIGHT BE Clinton’s intellectual superior and if that’s true, that would make her the most intelligent president ever elected to
our government.
I wish she would begin to denounce corporate sponsorship and make it clear that AFTER the election she is going to take corporate donations OUT of public electoral process
IF she does THAT she will gain even republican voters because THAT issue is the elephant in the room
by the way, I think I have just by accident written a progressives marriage credo;
“progressives want mates not maids”
that will play EVERYWHERE
[Mod note: edited at commenter’s request]
Lodger @ 26
back left?
nice perris
for the most part, intelligent men need a MATE, they do NOT need a MAID.
wait. i have it on pretty good authority that ‘a man needs a maid’……
well, truth be said, neil was young when he recorded that….
Elliott @ 28
Haven’t thought about that one, but I find it interesting that the audience/voters, when asked to participate, take the job very seriously and tend to come up with pretty good questions — although the one about pearls or diamonds may be an exception. :)
Scarecrow @ 23
I remember John Roberts from my days living & teaching in Toronto. Roberts is Canadian, born in Toronto, went to U of T.
And he was one of the first veejays on the Canadian equivalent of MTV, MuchMusic. Then he went by the name J.D. Roberts.
I know it’s hard to believe he was ever that hip. Actually, if memory serves, he wasn’t…
garbage truck filled with diamonds and pearls now pursued by numerous police cars on the freeway our choppers are on the scene
Lodger @ 26
Yes, it certainly would be.
Again, I am no H. Clinton fan. Among other things, her Iran vote disturbs me greatly. She’s also way to cozy with big money to bring any real change re: election reform or single payer universal health care.
Since it looks like Gore’s really not gonna run, Edwards would be my next choice.
It’s Treason: Dems Stay Silent on Bush White House Crimes
from AfterDowningStreet.org – Impeach Bush and Cheney Now!
By Richard W. Behan, AlterNet
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
–Article III, Section 3, United States Constitution (emphasis added)
The mainstream Democrats — represented, say, by Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Joe Biden, and Christopher Dodd — have not levied war against the United States. Their treason lies instead in committing the second offense: They adhere to enemies of the country, giving them aid and comfort.
TexBetsy @ 32
thanx, I hope a moderater can fix an error I made
I wrote hillary might be clinton’s equal and I meant to write “hillary MIGHT BE clinton’s intelectual superior”
could lurking mod fix please?
Politicians in the worst sense try to please all the people (and in Hill’s case, corporations) all the time. It’s about being well liked.
Hill’s no dumbie, but will she govern as a progressive? Not likely. She’s slightly left of center and that is way too far to the right for my taste.
I wonder where on that continuum the people really are. We hear a lot about the huge center. Is it true or have the people not been informed well about progressive solutions?
Unfortunately, as weak as Hill is, I’d prefer her to any repuke they have there. Imagine Rudi? Another lying fascists who makes no apologies about it either.
the phrase, “she did it backwards and in high heels” springs to mind…
‘morning all – coffee is ready and it is strong.
If CNN had a plan to discredit Clinton the post debate discussion would not have included two Clintonites and a repugnicon.
When are we going to wake up?
OldCoastie @ 41
I LOVE women who do it backwards, I must say
must earn and am off to do same, see all in a little bit
It’s hard to even watch the MSM bobbleheads. They’re so shallow and stupid… and did I say uninformed? We really live in a dumbed down world of image without substance.
Just finished morning news & blog tidbets. Have another hour of sleep ahead before I REALLY need to be up. See y’all later!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 31
Good point! I stand corrected.
trying to get my courage up to call the Sec. of State on the petitioners’ little fraudulent exercise on the electoral college vote thingie…
perris @ 39
I have always half suspected that Bill’s attraction to Hillary, to be quite blunt, was and still is her mesmerizing intellect and organizing ability. Some men are attracted to women who are totally different from themselves and totally different from other women they know (the “exotic creatures” theory – my father was one of those sorts of guys)and I think Bill Clinton was attracted to Hillary for those two reasons. For all of his sexual “issues”, I think those two have a very strong partnership marriage filled with tremendously strong intellectual respect and ambition for one another.
That said, I think Sen. Clinton is stronger strategically than any other candidate out there – she may not be the favorite, but I do think from a strategic perspective, she is the strongest. I also think Edwards is frankly running out of emotional gas for the process.
Scarecrow @ 34
amy goodman, without a doubt.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I think the CNN debate was rigged for HRC. I believe those questions that were lobbed her way about all of the “gaffes” she made over the past two weeks were softballs. You don’t think they have been working on responses to those missteps for the past weeks? Come On. It also helped that she had plants in the audience heckling anyone that took her on. Even legitimately taking her on. And the follow up analysis by CNN’s political team? Carville and Gergen? Two former Clintonites? Please this was a gift to the HRC campaign. I think that will be the ultimate negative message coming out of this debate. Hillary can only win if the fix is in.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 36
Who is driving? OJ, Paris, Britney, or Lindsay?
OldCoastie @ 48
go for it!
Thanks for the extensive summary.
I couldn’t BEAR to watch the debate last night — precisely because of the MSM posturing, and their greater concern for “gotcha” that facilitating a real chance for voters to get to know candidates. Figured I could catch the “good stuff” [i.e., the candidates’ responses on The Tubes] and not have to suffer through Wolf et al.
Besides, I’ve greatly enjoyed going to the sites of local media — e.g., the Iowa Independent — and watching clips of individual candidates responding to real questions from real people. Better than the phonied up horserace/bar fight CNN tries to create.
Also, Sundance was showing the wonderful Iconoclasts series. Last night @ 9 was last week’s feature, Mike Myers & Depak Chopra. At 10, the founder of Starbucks & Norman Lear. Both were phenomenal, and I recommend them highly. (The Norman Lear episode re-runs at 6 pm ET tonight.)
Each of these was deeply moving and made me feel a lot more hopeful for humanity than preening reporters would have.
And then I watched the TiVo’d episode of The Office & laughed my ass off. [So much thinner now without that ass.]
OldCoastie @ 48
You can do it. You are woman. Roar.
In a nice way of course.
(They’re just people and you’re just calling them with a question.)
Sorry, Scarecrow, my take on the debate could not differ more as far as Senator Clinton is concerned, my senator by the way, for whom I voted twice and will not vote for again. Parenthetically, let me say I have contacted her office innumerable times during the past years. They take the prize for arrogance. Clinton cast two votes, re, Iraq and Iran which are unforgivable and which do not reflect the sentiments of her constituency.
But, back to the debate.
A chaotic debate poorly moderated which, like previous debates, left me wanting to hear more from the so called lower tier candidates, Kucinich and Biden in particular. Sen. Clinton grates on my nerves because of content,style, delivery. She is rhetorical,rehearsed, formulaic. Always trying to slalom her way out. Unlike the shamefully biased post debate analysis on CNN by Clinton acolytes and the overall MSM inclination to crown Hillary, the blogosphere provided a much more accurate analysis of what transpired during the debate and how each candidate fared. In my book Obama is the man. I agree with Sy Hersch, he is the candidate who can best help repair the image of the United States in the world in general and in the Muslim world in particular. I believe Obama’s victory would help to galvanize and unite this country and restore pride in being an American.
TexBetsy @ 46
Noticed the article re: going after Ken Lay’s assets on your blog.
I’ll bet Ken (and his new face & fingerprints)
are really mad about this development.
John Roberts is an angry bitch.
Hah!
Toby Wollin @ 49
Interesting analysis, thanks
On Edwards, do you think it could be because of his wife’s health?
IrishJim @ 51
i wouldn’t go so far as rigged… but i do agree about the softballs.
Alter on msnbc saying Clinton won because it was a “Hillary crowd”.
Elliott @ 21
Funny, I used to really like John Roberts when he was with CBS. I hoped fervently that he’d be pick for Dan Rather’s spot.
Don’t know if I was wrong all that time, or if he’s turned bitter after that episode.
Bernard Goldberg certainly has gone over to the Dark Side!!!
There is a part of me that feels so torn. “not this woman”. But the other part of me, so clearly appreciates what “this woman” has accomplished. Regardless of her husband and in some ways “despite” and the very best kind of “to spite” her husband. She did it by suceeding. She did it by working hard. I also suspect that she knows that campaign promises are easily made and very hard to keep. She understands how difficult it is to get things done in washington.
I also believe that she was spot on when she said that all this contention will not go away just because she or any other democratic won or wins the election. This, in my opinion is one of her strongest advantages. She understands and does not underestimate the power of the republican neo con machine. She understands that no matter how much we “hate” them or “disagree” with them, we as a nation will have to “work with them” and “deal with them” in the following administration. Their power will not be muted because of any democrat getting into office because their power is based on money, influence and criminal actions.
I fear that Obama and Ewards are a bit naive in this regard. I think sometimes I dislike her discourse because it is what is “effective” given the power of the neo con gov’t instead of what I want to hear.
I have to admit I shivered when she talked about the 90 year old woman wanting to live long enough to see a woman president. I didn’t want it to be so powerful, but as a woman, who has come across that glass ceiling and stumbled on “those obstacles”, it was really powerful. I felt a tear in my eye, and my heart skipped a beat.
My impressions were pretty much the same as Scarecrow’s. I like all of the Democratic candidates and always hate the going negative part of primary campaigns because they can lead to irrepairable fractures and presidents like Nixon. Still, I athought both Obama and Edwards looked irritated and deflated last night. They were having to proceed with game plans that were obviously going sour.
IrishJim @ 51
Well, it’s an interesting theory, that the MSM who was so complicit in trying to destroy Bill Clinton, is now actively promoting Hillary’s candidacy and had to fix the debate because she’s incompetent and helpless without their help. It’s a wonder she can speak a complete sentence. And I suppose the questions to Obama and Edwards that were invitations for them to repeat their criticisms of her were calculated to show them in a negative light?
As for the “plants” in the audience, there was very strong applause for each of the major candidates when they came on the stage — that is, there were large groups supporting each candidate in the audience, and each got a chance to cheer their candidate’s answers.
perris @ 30:
Now if you could just sneak in a reference to Trophy Wives . . .
I respect Clinton in many ways, but she is not a reformer. And neither is Obama. Visions of HoJoe-lite making “bi-partisan strides” in the WH makes me swallow hard. We have the complicated situation of defending the party and fending off Repuke talking points and misogynistic comments that get thrown at Hillary, and not liking her hawkish stance and triangulating one bit. I wish, I wish Edwards or some other would break through so Tweetie chirps like he’s got a fire under his ass.
Who was in the audience?
Please forgive this totally unrelated OT but for baseball fans of a certain age who might remember the youngest player in MLB history, the “Ol’ Lefty” has died.
Joe Nuxhall, RIP
Toby Wollin @ 49
Perhaps ’stronger’ strategically, in the self-serving ‘political’ sense, but is she ’strategically’ wiser than say, Kucinich, on the larger, more deadly issues?
Her ’strategy’ may be more like the strategy of self-serving, selfish folks like Rupert, perhaps.
Is HRC best for our nation? Best for the deeper needs of the time? I remain VERY skeptical.
Is HRC the ‘right’ person?
That’s too bad that the other candidates are stumbling so hard. I found out last week that all the prominent party “leaders” in my state are officially endorsing Hillary. It doesn’t really matter since the primary here is AFTER everything’s already been decided, but it bothers me that she’s the apparent “favorite” of so many people.
I honestly can’t believe they can all support her based on the issues, so that leaves the alarming conclusion that it’s some sort of political calculus. We need to get these people a math tutor.
Republicans have a pretty crappy slate of candidates, not just from my liberal point of view, but from the point of view of much of their base. The Republican base will only reluctantly show up to the polls next November — unless something really gets them stirred up.
I don’t see any of the Republican candidates invigorating their base, but there’s one Democratic candidate who can motivate the Republican base like no other.
And it looks like Democrats are going to give them that candidate.
When there are already so many obstacles, from biased media to rigged voting machines, we can’t afford to do Republicans any favors — and nominating Hillary is the biggest favor we can do for the Republicans.
Kate Jensen @ 63:
Some time ago I might have agreed with you on this, but this past week I found Paul Krugman’s presentation at a book fair in FL. [go to BookTV for the link]
He pointed out the myth and futility of “bi-partisanship,” at least with the current crop on the Republican side. He references FDR and the years’-long attempts to undo the New Deal. [Attempts that have come back via the Bush Administration.]
I’d be interested in your thoughts if you have a chance to listen to this.
Was Clinton triangulating when she said she liked both diamonds and pearls? Or would she have had to include rubies for that?
Good morning Loo Hoo.
I thought you did a marvelous job live blogging the debate last night.
president hillary will straighten out that yap hugo chavez for irritating our corporations.
WASHINGTON, DC – Nov. 15, 2007 – Five candidates for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States have issued a joint statement declaring they will cease participating in televised debates.
“We are finished with being stooges for broadcast journalism,” said Sen. Hillary Clinton, “and my fellow Democratic candidates join me in this decision to stop debating.”
“Let them find another way to sell Preparation H,” said former Senator John Edwards, “we’re done.”
All further press inquiries should be directed to campaign offices in Iowa.
Elliott @ 59
Yes, I do. I think John Edwards’ wife is his partner also. I think they have been “holding one another up” for years. This is another “partnership of equals”. I also know because I saw what my parents(who also had the same sort of partnership marriage)went through with my father’s last illness and death and what it did to my mother – her health was never the same after that. The process of it sucked the life right out of her; I can’t imagine that John Edwards, who obviously adores his wife and kids, can go through this process and remain untouched by it. The stress alone is huge. The knowledge of how much time he still has (or does not have) with her weighs on him, I’m sure. Trying to rouse courage and energy every single day is a herculean effort that would bring the strongest person down.
For any who’d like to see John Roberts as JD Roberts, long-haired veejay, on MuchMusic in 1986, here’s what my family would call the “blackmail clip”:
JD Roberts interviews Yngwie Malmsteen
Sufilizard @ 71
I found out the same thing [party “leaders” all sewed up for Hillary] here in my state [Maryland].
Very smart and strategic on her part, but not designed to win hearts and minds of voters.
But again, that’s my take on Hillary: object is for her to win; voters’ needs — not so much.
David W. Bartoo @ 70
Ugh you bring up Rupert Murdoch and remind me why I see red sometimes when I think of Hilary.
dakine01 @ 52
:-) All 4!!!
it’s a special truck!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 73
Wouldn’t triangulation result in an “oops, mistake in voting on Iraq invasion?” It just seems strange to me that someone is criticized for pandering to what every crowd wants to hear on the one hand, and bull headedly sticking to the most unpopular position on the most critical issue.
Scarecrow @ 65
I was hoping I had heard the last of plants in the audience with the W.’s Rovian machine… only to find out the Clinton campaign practices the same shenanigans as reported this week. A college student was fed a question about energy. Apparently it was not the first time.
Does anyone know what the abortion question that Biden was in the middle of answering when they came back from the commercial was?
OldCoastie @ 48
Do it, old coastie. Cinnamonape showed me what happened. They need to be TAKEN DOWN for that, and Debra Bowen will be on it. We need to take cameras where ever we go I guess, huh? Did you tell the morning crowd what happened?
Marie Roget @ 78
You take mercy on us and give us Louis Armstrong instead.
and president hillary will continue to do a good job of smacking down those middle eastern nations who think they can actually have people in universities and have doctors and hospitals and not like Isr*el.
death is so beautiful.
the statue of liberty is brandishing a taser.
ceci –
In my book Obama is the man. I agree with Sy Hersch, he is the candidate who can best help repair the image of the United States in the world in general and in the Muslim world in particular. I believe Obama’s victory would help to galvanize and unite this country and restore pride in being an American.
I also saw Sy Hersh’ comment, and there was a NYT op ed making a similar point about the promise/vision of Obama’s Presidency. So I was looking for it last night. I’m not sure whether he hasn’t found a way to articulate that clearly, or has decided that suggesting he can reach out to Muslims would just encourage the Republicans to take off on the Obama/Osama nonsense. We know they will if needed.
I share the desire for an alternative vision of the US role in the world, and the concern that Clinton represents the old view that needs to be replaced, but I frankly have not heard any candidate articulate that alternative vision, beyond saying we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq. After that, it just sounds like a less belligerent version of American hegemony. And despite the criticisms of Hillary’s Iran/Iraq votes, I didn’t hear any of the candidates really nail this.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 75
Let’s hope not.
mui @ 86
Yeah, I screwed that up, but managed to fix it in the edit mode, I think. If not, here’s the MuchMusic Roberts clip:
JD Roberts interviews Yngwie Malmsteen
Only one worse than hillary last night was wolf. CNN was a joke from the beginning hell the debate was brought to us by CLEAN COAL. Hillary looked shrill and angry. AND now we know what the middle class is to hillary …the top 6%.
PBS did an amazing job a couple of days ago discussing the major issues for nevada…water and power. But being that the debate was brought to us by clean coal,energy seemed to be severely lacking in the debate.
Loo Hoo. @ 73
Your comment is a jewel, with many facets, some hidden . . . the luster of FDL is growing ever brighter; the dialog shimmers with perception, insight and humor as well genuine gravitas.
Marie Roget @ 90
The armchair psychologist suggests that you like Louis Armstrong better.
Marie Roget @ 78
That’s a bad link? It went to a Louis Armstrong video?
Mauimom @ 79
Yeah, I hate to keep bashing Hillary here, but the stakes are so high right now, we can’t afford mistakes — and I think Hillary would be a BIG mistake.
Worst case scenario, is that she invigorates the Republican base which will give the Republicans enough votes that a few shenanigans in a state like Florida or Ohio will be all it takes to give the White House back to Republicans. That would obviously be a disaster for this country and the world.
Second worse scenario, is if she actually wins. We need a SERIOUS reformer to undo all the damage done to this country not only over the past 7 years, but since Reagan.
I just don’t see that coming from Hillary. She’ll throw us liberals a few bones on some important issues, but she won’t touch the fundamental problems that are behind it all. She’ll leave the media monopolies in place, we’ll get only cosmetic election reform and we’ll get a “universal health care” plan that is written by the big insurance companies.
Then in four or eight years we’ll get another Republican that will be so corrupt he’ll (they’re Republicans, of course it will be a he) make Bush Jr. seem downright innocuous in comparison.
But that second scenario is the less likely IMO, so we need to be seriously deciding if we really want to see a Ghouliani presidency.
raven @ 84
If it is the point I am thinking of, they asked Biden if he supported abortion rights and Roe v Wade. I think it was directed at all the candidates and most used the “I believe in privacy” as the hook to deal with it. Biden IIRC used pieces of the 14th amendment as the base.
doug @ 91
WTF does “looked shrill and angry” mean? It was a debate and she was standing up to attacks. I am no Hillary backer but damn. . .
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 81
Saw somewhere on a news or IP homepage earlier today — MSNBC? Charter Home? — a picture and caption “Cristina Aguilar’s Baby Moves.” I swear.
Saw last 5 minutes of this kabuki theater. I want my 5 minutes back. Then saw the roundup — no there there. CNN desperately trying to rehabilitate Clinton and yes, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
DLC-like, “undecided” audience members seemed quite biased to Clinton and allowed her to retrack from last debate. Wasn’t that last “pearls/diamonds” questions was such a nice touch? See she’s funny (and women can always have it both ways. Clever)
Oh, oh and I loved the objective pundits – Carville (pro H.Clinton); Gergen (pro B.Clinton) and JC (black Repub). See they all love Hill — the Sensible Repubs, the “Left”, the minorities!!! Honest. They’re objective. CNN objective — wink. wink.
Hill is not the answer — but sorry, Obama is not it either. I always seem to miss his charisma moments. Vision — no. Passion — no. Lots of platitudes.
raven @ 84
The trailer at the bottom was about nominating Supreme Court justices who would uphold Roe v. Wade.
RevDeb @ 11
Maybe not for you, but it is for many – for and against. I read this site becuase it generally has good arguements and conclusions, but there is a gender leaning here. That is not bad.
mui @ 93
;-) I’ve got enough of his discs around this house to confirm it. Louis Armstrong & His Hot Five, mmmmm…
yesterday afternoon I stopped in at the Target store. 2 young men were gathering signatures for a ballot initiative. they said they were trying to get a children’s cancer hospital on the ballot, handed me the clipboard and asked me to sign multiple copies… multiple copies?
so, I pried the giant rubber band off the clipboard and removed the papers from it and then said in a big, loud voice, “what are all these OTHER ballot initiatives under here?” All the pens stopped writing on the other clipboards. (there was quite a crowd).
the kids started telling me all about emminent domain, and while that was the 2nd petition on the clipboard, the 3rd one was the odious one that is trying to split the CA electoral vote. They said, “oh, that’s just a ‘fair vote’ proposal.
we got into a tug of war over the clipboard when they tried to take the petitions away from me. I stayed for about an hour telling anyone who stopped that these kids were trying to perpetuate a fraud on them and got the store manager out to try to shoo them off.
they kept saying I was nuts and didn’t know what I was talking about… I kept saying, “this is illegal!” I finally left, went to the sheriff’s substation nearby but they only gave me a card with a disconnected number to call.
today I’m calling the Sec. of State. a guy up in Santa Barbara had exactly the same experience, right down to the children’s hospital thing and the “please sign multiple copies”…
it was very weird.
I believe that CNN and the MSM in general is doing everything in their power to promote their favorite corporate candidate – Hillary Clinton. It was disgusting to hear the Clinton “supporters” booing some of the most insightful statements by Obama and Edwards. It is nothing more than a con job on the American people. And CNN offers up Carville for the post-debate analysis/spin. Maybe they should have informed the viewers that Carville is part of Team Clinton.
dakine01 @ 96
I got the answer but he said something about the questioner had already decided (not the audience member, whoever the woman roving the crowd with the mic was.
retirin’ in five @ 98
The baby was sick of it’s living quarters and moved to a womb with a view.
David W. Bartoo @ 70
Props to Kucinich for taking The Beard down over the stupid framing of that undocumented workers question. That’s the first time I have actually seen a candidate not let a republican-based question be foisted on them and actually object to the language of the question, instead of coming up with some weasel-dick response to the “moderators” republican talking points.
The more I see of Kucinich, the more I think there’s more substance than show.
Not to worry. This country will not last 8 more years… as anything which we can recognize.
We are headed for an unavoidable train wreck and regardless of who the next pres is, it ain’t gonna matter.
The energy and credit crises don’t care who’se in the white house.
In reference to Bill and Hillary’s marriage:
A healthy marriage is one that encourages both people to become better and more effective human beings. They have managed to be good for each other in the long run, instead of being destroyed by each other. That’s what makes a sucessful marriage.
SanderO @ 109
We’re all gonna die, we’re all gonna die. Help help help.
I wouldn’t call last night’s performance a debate. It was more like Wolf Blitzer trying to create headlines. Pathetic. That being said, every time Hillary answers a question, I find her to be more and more out of touch with real people–their hopes, desires and struggles. For her, it’s all about power (ditto Richardson, IMO). By contrast, the others really seem to be running for the sake of doing something positive for the people of this country.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 75
What if we brought in Chavez as advisor on how to create a state oil company. What if we heavily penalized the oil companies for f*cking with the American public and the rest of the world? Just What if?
grayslady @ 112
must.screw.metallic.head.to.left.and.recognize.alien.intruders.now.fire.at.peasant.army.collecting.on.planet.x.
i.can.bring.people.together.
The voices in my head are coalescing around Richardson. He is highly experienced and totally against the “War”.
mui @ 113
Casear Chavez?
raven @ 97
I thought she actually looked scared at the beginning of the debate, nervous and human. She caught her groove right away, though. I’d never seen her look less than confident before, and it made me root for her.
mui @ 113
let me check with cheney on that. i’ll get back to you after the
peasantpheasant hunt.OldCoastie @ 103
Who were (are) these people?
Thank you for standing against them and speaking out. Appreciate the courage that took. So many people, today, in our society, are afraid of making a ’scene’.
The ‘official’ response was so ‘now’, so appropriate, so, dare I say it?, so ‘American’.
I think the answer Biden gave on Supreme Court appointments showed that he understands how the nomination fights play out. No nominee ever says that they will or will not support overturning Roe. Biden has been in the center chair for those answers as chair of the Judiciary Committee.
What the nominees should answer is the question Biden posed about whether their interpretation of the fourteenth amendment includes the zone of privacy analysis that led to the Roe decision (paraphrasing).
Biden also said his first appointment would be a woman because there aren’t enough women on the court.
What did I take away from last night’s debacle: CNN sucks!!!!
That wasn’t a debate. Are there going to be any real debates?
I absolutely despise the MSM. :(
Oh, and Snakeman Carville can f off. Someone should tell him to write, not speak. It’s excruciating to try and comprehend what he’s babbling about.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 118
Ba! Now you make me nervous. Not.
further information on the ballot initiative fraud at Calitics, here and here.
off to work – have a good one…
way to go oldcoastie.
seriously
good effort.
raven @ 105
Ah, that was Suzanne Malveaux. She inserted the additional part of the question which is why Biden was going on the attack of her piece of it while answering the audience member’s question
Susan in Iowa @ 120
I was down with the amswer I just didn’t here the question(s),
Caw…Caw…Caw…Cawwww!!! Scarecrow! You are right on when you state that all the Democrats except the lesser luminaries swim in the same pool of temptations and compromised “pragmatic” policies that Hillary does.
I’m surprised that anyone thinks that Edwards and Obama do NOT accept corporate or PAC money. Yes Edwards does…although it is nicely disguised through third parties. Anyone who thinks different should ask themselves some hard questions…just what are all those lawyers giving Edwards money for? Skadden, Arps? ?Stearns, Weaver et al.. Admittedly a lot of these law firms like Edwards because they are personal liability lawyers…but they are “special interests” and ARE lobbying.
And firms like Citibank, Fortress Investment Group, Deutsche Bank AG as well as other Hedge Fund groups support Edwards.
Obama, Too.
down is up. up is down. war is peace.
‘barbie’ is a fully realized human being.
‘ken’ has a new job down at the docks tasering illegals.
OT? Krugman’s take on Obama’s take on social security: Obama’s been played for a sucker. Naive.
Could it be the J LIE factor, whispering in his ear? J LIE…the snake in the Dem garden.
Obama has promise, but I’m still solid:
Edwards/Obama ‘08.
And President Edwards can send Veep Obama to heal our relations with the world.
Old coastie, can you go back to the police dept. and demand a report? Your case will be one of many. We need to demonstrate the pattern. Tell them you need something in writing.
Old Coastie at 103
Isn’t there a group in California opposing that ballot initiative? You should let them know. And call the doctor. (Doctor Howard Dean at the DNC, that is.)
What if we brought in Chavez as advisor on how to create a state oil company. What if we heavily penalized the oil companies for f*cking with the American public and the rest of the world? Just What if?
mui
well, i’ll reply without absurd irony.
your point is well made of course and totally valid.
dakine01 @ 125
Yea, what was the additional part? For some reason, being all of 60 miles from CNN World frickin Headquarters, they were at a commercial.
Susan in Iowa @ 120
Yes — that was a pretty sophisticated answer. The guy is smart.
Loo Hoo. @ 130
LooHoo, I’m going to try to find the petitioners this weekend (this is a ripe trolling area for that sort of thing) and do a little better documentation and then I’m going to try to find an active “non-emergency” police number. I suspect the Carona mess led them to shut off the phone.
Anyone brave enough to post this “smoking gun” on Ghouliani over at Red State?
EPU’ed from late late nite.
G’ morning all from the always Blue (well except for governor) Bay State.
Fisa and the debate have eclipsed another important new developments,leaving aside much ado about celebrity and innocent until proven guilty baseball players.
–5 new nominations from Deputy AG to Associates and Assistants AND
–release of the IG Fine (AGAG’s potential indictor) on the sorry state of the DOJ.
I am on deadline and cannot indulge in thread review, so could nightowls and early risers (E***D Teller, what time is it in Alaska when you join us?) bring me/us up to speed.
Or if the topic is new, get us started on it.
I am sure Loosehead Prop will soon be explaining it, but I admit to being impatient to know if they are sameold sameold, or show a glimmer of hope for the rule of law.
And on the subject of nominations, what’s the latest word on keeping congress in session through pro-formas to avoid recess nominations?
Be back after the tea is made and the dead wood papers taken out of rain, cause its may not be raining in Georgia, but it sure is here.
OldCoastie @ 103
Contact Target corporate. They don’t even allow the Salvation Army to set up kettles on their property.
Could there be a petition sheet for the split electoral college among all those multi-copies?
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 132
Actually I like absurd irony. Even if it sends shivers down my back. It made me laugh
ot – senate cloture vote coming up s.2340
Scarecrow @ 134
Scarecrow, Biden is half smart and half lizard lounge. Edit: Half smarmy lizard lounge. No-show dunkin donuts Joe.
cinnamonape @ 127–
The largest percentage of contributions for Russ Feingold and Dick Durbin also come from attorneys, not PACs, and they are two of the most progressive voices in the Senate. Attorneys have money and they tend to be liberal in their thinking. That doesn’t make them a special interest group or a lobby.
raven @ 133
IIRC she (Malveaux) asked specifically if the candidates would use upholding Roe v Wade as a litmus test.
Roy E Pearson @ 101
I have yet to talk with any woman I know who is backing Hillary. And I talk with a lot of women. Yes, the main front pagers here are women as are a goodly number of the commenters, but other than defending Hill against misplaced gender attacks as is appropriate, we’re all looking for more than just gender ID when choosing the next leader of this country—no longer next leader of the free world thanx to 43.
Mauimom @ 72.
I haven’t read that peice yet, (and I will) but I have to say this. I work in an agency that treats sexual assault and domestic violence. I work with both victims and men and women who are violent.
Life on this planet, no matter how much we want to avoid this truth, will always, always require effectively working within the laws of nature. Neo cons, corruption, power, and abusive power and control have both sides to them. Everything in nature has a positive and negative. The sun, the moon, the stars, the weeds, the moss, mold, bacteria, viruses, and aggression, corruption and power in human beings.
The only effective way to survive this truth, is to be willing to consider the dialectic of each and every situation.
It will not work to demonize completely the neo cons. It will work to hold them accountable to the truth, and to look for the kernal of truth in their perpective. Same with terrorism. It’s very hard to take this perspective, but I have found, that when I accept this approach in nature, and apply it to us humans (who are part of nature) then I am much more effective in situations that seem completely hopeless and black and white.
I believe that both Bill and Hillary have the intellectual capacity to do this, and I fear that in our black and white thinking we often interpret this ability to synthesize the evil and the good as collusion with “the bad”.
We need to be very careful here. Bill Clinton was effective in many ways. I did not always agree with him and surely he made mistakes as will Hillary. But the picture is not black and white.
I should also mention that I work with people who have severe personality disorders…I must be able to find the positive in the most seemingly negative aspects of life. Time and time again, I find it and it works to further effective behaviors when I do this.
There’s a whole string of photos with the questions from last night’s debate.
grayslady @ 142
True. And in the New Haven area there are many Greens among them.
mui @ 67
I’m not sure that what is needed right now is a reformer. The whole system is in chaos and what is needed is someone who can start to clean up the messes. Real reform may need to wait until there is some kind of equilibrium.
The central problem with democracy is that you have to get elected to implement anything in which you believe. Since it is difficult to find the members of a single family who agree on everything, the most idealistic of successful politicians have to dissemble on some issues in order to have a chance to get elected. Give me a smart, well-intentioned pragmatist like FDR.
I remember reading that Robespierre is considered to be an idealist. He was willing to go quite a ways to achieve his perfect society.
Scarecrow, yes he is smart. I find it irresistible in a man, always have. You should hear him talk about issues like that when he doesn’t have Blitzer waving him down.
My favorite Biden answer was on Iran: if the President takes us to war without a congressional resolution it means impeachment. I have heard him say something close to that before, but not the “i” word. That would have been a “so what else is new” answer from Dennis Kucinich, but from Biden, who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee, it was stunning. None of the CNN idiots seemed to even notice, but I was pounding my chair.
grayslady @ 142
That’s why the wingnuts are so set on “tort reform” which is code for kill the lawyers.
eCAHNomics @ 151
“tort reform” is translation for “let corporations kill your kids and you won’t be able to sue them”
without law suits our cars would blow up when another car tapped the bumper, our kids pajamas would ignite while they sleep and our food would have formaldahide
lawsuits save us money they don’t cost us money and they protect us and our kids
yet through the coporations excellant marketing strategy they have somehow been able to convince middle class americans that law suits are somehow bad for America
Did anyone notice how different Campbell Brown looked last night? She seems to have puffed up quite a bit. I know she just had a baby…
Fern @ 148
Exactly..the perfect storm of Republican economic malpractice is going to hit in ‘09..and the Thugs are going to make the transition as difficult as possible; burning the bridges behind them..it going to be a mess. In that situation I would want Hillary, Dodd or Biden.
mui @ 141
What in the heck are you talking about? Lizard lounge? Have you ever met Biden? I have, three times, and there is nothing reptilian about him. He is the brightest, most passionate and sincere politician I have ever met, and I have met quite a few. I enjoy the discussions about our differences on this site, but I do not like silly insults as a substitute.
Typo: Hispanice
Prolly mentioned numerous times by now.
Thanks for the post, excellent run down. If there’s a transcript of the spanish itself, I’d be happy to translate that.
Toby Wollin @ 107
Toby, you are totally correct, so far as I am concerned, about the priority of needful actions and your analysis of our Constitutional dilemma, but if HRC does not change her war-like stance, then NO, she is not the one, because complicity will out. Yes, she does have ‘reason’ to ‘go after’ certain folks, but do you honestly believe that will happen, or be ‘allowed’ to happen? I would truly love to see consequence, but who butters HRC’s ‘bread’?
Her interests do not, I fear, lie with us, but with the elite, both corporate and political.
I am not being cynical, but I suspect HRC is quite capable of being so. That is not the leadership we need.
If HRC is elected, and that may be a big ‘if’,
all who support her must realize that NOTHING of substance will change. And I am convinced that almost ‘everything’ must be changed or our children are going to face a hellish world filled with hellish choices.
That is how I see it.
I greatly fear that HRC does not see things that way, she has too much ‘invested’ in what ‘is’. Had she shown real leadership during her tenure in the Senate I might feel differently. As of now, such evidence of ‘real’ leadership is not evident, instead we still have the appearance of a high school popularity contest masquerading as true political ‘choice’. And that assumes that voting will not be ‘rigged’. I do not blame HRC for the political ‘games’ but I do feel that if she were genuine she would at least address them, rather than just ‘profiting’ from them.
perris @ 152
Yes, it’s a twofer. I already understood the agenda that you explained. What I hadn’t realized was the campaign contribution aspect of wingnuts wanting to kill the liability lawyers. Or rather, I had sort of realized it, but not completely until I saw who some of the particular recipients were.
Susan in Iowa @ 150
I was wondering if that was the first time he’d said that. There was an article a while back — can’t remember the blogger — who argued that if Bush did start a war with Iran, it would be even harder to get impeachment, because no matter what, nations tend to rally around their leaders when wars start. Removing the CinC doesn’t happen, or so the argument goes.
Has there been any more information or press coverage on the political donors to HRC that Pres. Clinton pardoned? I wonder why that question wasn’t asked last night?
Larisa Alexandrovna on http://www.antiwar.com/blog/20…..ndrovna-2/ said she wouldn’t put it past W to start the bombing of Iran AFTER the election, if a D wins, to leave her/him with the mess.
peanutbutter @ 156
Thanks. I fixed it.
Scarecrow, great blog. I agree with your take completely. I’m wondering what most of these posters were watching. Those boys got bitch slapped and had nowhere to hide. The audience just reacted fairly. When Obama actually stacked the audience last week, did anyone here complain? Not so much.
PrairieSunshine – the split electoral college vote was EXACTLY what they were hiding – 3rd petition down in the stack.
I swear, I felt like Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes when she got into the parking lot space confrontation with the teenagers in the car… “I’m older than you, smarter than you and have more insurance” when we were having the tug o’ war over the clipboard.
Jo-Ann @ 163
Bitch-slapped huh, glad you said that, Jo-Ann.
eCAHNomics @ 161
I’d say he’s capable of something like this.
David W. Bartoo @ 157
OK, David, then WHO? Who is going to do “the dirty deed”? Whoever we elect (if it’s a Democrat – if it’s a GOP, then all bets are off)will not only have to start the cleanup process, but also put things into place so that we can get them re-elected and then elect another Democratic president. I figure this process is going to take 20 years of vigilence, backbone, and shovels.
This site continues to ignore the possibility that the Clintons are truly dangerous characters, not just self serving careerists which they are, but truly dangerous.
You all can continue your sopohomoric approaches to Bush who, despite his obvious infirmities, managed to beat or come close to beating Gore and Kerry (allowing for your Florida and Ohio conspiracy theories)
But why are the Clintons so dangerous? Because they continue to lower the bar of American politics and social life by obfuscating and trvializing what is truly important. One example is the Clintons vote for the Iraq War (and their defense of that vote) and their obfuscation of what actually needed to be considered as part of that decision to go to war.
Yes, I think Tweety et al, have been wasting their time. They’ve been nitpicking on the most inconsequential things. Tweety in particular seems to not be able to come to grips with the modern world. He just can’t wrap his head around the fact that voters of BOTH genders actually like Hillary Clinton. He’s spinning and spitting frantically in an effort to show us that she’s just a girl and the He Man Women Hater’s Club will not have her as a member, can’t we all see that?! But like the lemmings we are, we just ignore him. We were brought up in a different generation.
I think if Tweety and Buchanan types don’t back off, they are going to find themselves marginalized by the absurd vehemence of the attacks on her.
I mean, what really was the point of the last two weeks? What we saw at the last debate was a relentless attack on Hillary by her opponents and a “moderator” the likes of which we have never seen. And she stood there and took it like a pro because that’s her job as frontrunner. And then the pundits try to tell us we didn’t see what we saw, a woman tough enough to take it without breaking much of a sweat. So what if she likes to give nuanced answers? (She can be taught, apparently) But all we heard from the pundits was a version of, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
Oh, yeah, she frosted their crockies BIG time last night. But to top it all off, her makeup was perfect and flattering, her eyes looked youthful and intelligent, her skin glowed, and whoever her stylist was made sure that when the guys flanked her on both sides, her tweedy light gray jacket popped out from a sea of dark charcoals and navys. She looked like a leader of the coolest bunch of eggheads. I loved it.
Do we now passively resign ourselves to a Hillary coronation?
Someone earlier reminded us that Rupert Murdoch supports Hillary. He also supports Guiliana. Fox is this administration’s megaphone, keeping Fox viewers poorly informed. Murdoch’s ability to expand his message even further has everything to do with Kevin Martin’s current FCC fight to relax media ownership rules to allow even more consolidation.
For me the big elephant in the room noone’s talking about is “big dog”. Huge numbers of Americans love Bill and remember the good old Clinton days. Who better than he to heal wounds with the rest of the world who by and large love him?
peanutbutter @ 156
I’m checking with the Dodd folks to get a transcript and/or translation.
In the meantime, here’s the final clock on how much time each candidate got, courtesy of the Dodd folks.
Er, I trust FDL for deep expertise, real reportage, and critical thinking, based on a long history going back to when they became the go-to site on the Plame Affair.
To me, this post lacks all these qualities.
Biodun @ 170
We certainly don’t want to bitch slap her now do we?
OldCoastie @ 164
Wow. I usually avoid petition signers, but I’ll check the next couple I see.
*chuckle*
perris @ 30
A Man Needs A Maid!!
(I had to throw in a Neil Young reference) ;-)
left dc in 72 @ 168
i do think clinton is dangerous – but not for the reasons you give. i think her vote for the iraq war was genuine – whereas for someothers i think their vote in favor may have been do to self serving careerism.
and i prefer self serving careerism (as much as i despise it) to unrepentant war mongering.
scarecrow:
Re: clock talk:
I hadn’t realized that Richardson got that much airtime…
The clintons are dangerous because they are effective. I am sorry but stop and think about what happened in the nineties. I never believed we would balance the budget. As Bush one left office, I believed this was an impossibility and that to do so would desperately hurt the poor.
I work with the poor. The poor in america, got treated with respect and dignity in, in my neighborhood. We had grants and the welfare to work program actually had enough money to address mental health issues for those women struggling with real issues that would prevent them from being able to work. (like supporting them as they work through domestic violence or getting them therapy for past sexual abuse, or physical abuse, helping them with parenting), this brought them dignity. I feared it, but it was a good thing.
I am sorry but the Clintons worked to help the poorest of the nation. They aren’t perfect but what they accomplished was only dangerous to the wealthiest interests of the world, because it asked them to help. I think they seek balance. And this is very scary to those of us who think in black and white.
She’s very polished. She’s getting better as time goes on. She’s the blended candidate: realism and idealism combine in her answers.
As a progressive, I sorely wish she had a better voting record!
But, when all is said and done, she can use that voting record to garner votes from the non-progressive crowd and may well end up in the White House.
Toby Wollin @ 167
‘09 is going to be a Democratic President’s “intersection” with History and it is going to be a brutal and frustrating 8 years. Nuances of policy isn’t going to mean a thing..it’s going to be a back alley knife fight for the future of our Country. Who do you want in the alley? That is the bottom line.
left dc in 72 @ 168
This site is a collection of posters and commenters
Their biases may show from time to time.
I tend to agree with your points, in a two horse race, ANY of the Democrats are less threatening than ANY of the Republicans running.
Great post, scarecrow.
I was left with the impression that the audience had no faith in the “moderators” either and took over the task themselves.
Everyone evidently agrees Our Elite Media is just lame.
Scarecrow @ 159
Over Labor Day weekend he was near here, and I asked him about Iran. He said that if the President went to war without congressional authorization it would be a “constitutional crisis.” To me, that meant possible impeachment, and one of his staffers, an Iranian/American whose father was the UN ambassador from Mossadegh’s government, said the word to me afterword. In Biden’s answer, he also mentioned that he had warned Conoleeza about it when she testified in front of his committee.
My take is that he thinks war with Iran is a distinct possibility, and that answer was less about wowing the Democrats than it was a shot across the bow to the Bush Administration.
The blogger who said we rally around the CinC may be right, but I think there is so much opposition to war with Iran, including among Republicans in Congress, that people would be shocked and angry if they woke up to a smoking ruin at Natanz.
Toby Wollin @ 167
I personally feel that Kucinich has the ‘backbone’ to make a good beginning, have you seen HRC say ANYTHING about impeachment or even suggest that ’serious crimes’ have been committed in our name? The ‘fact’ that DK ‘does not have any more chance than a snowball …’ says it all. The people we desperately need in positions of power are not permitted to even get close. The truth, Toby, is that regardless of whom it is that assumes the ‘mantle’ the primary responsibility for seeing that what is ‘necessary’ comes to be done rests with you and me. Frankly, I’m more than willing to bet on us as well as the rest of the FDL population. Of course, we need the resat of the American public to ‘get on board’ and that will require sharing very compelling progressive narratives with them.
Biodun @ 178
Blitzer tried to limit everyone to pat answers, so they had to just ignore him and keep talking until they made their points. I like the format that gives each a fixed total amount of time, and they can decide how best to use it, and when it’s gone, they’re done.
Christy’s upstairs…
left dc in 72 @ 168
Danger is relative. As I see it, the major danger is that Bush policies will continue for more than a year or that the damage simply can’t be repaired.
Just a note on style, unless you are convinced that you have seen a vision, you might try to give other participants some credit for having some intelligence and having followed the issues.
Since I don’t watch the debates, they conflict with my evening obligations, I rely on this and other sites to get some understanding. I read the live-blogging on Kos, and a couple of others, and the clear message from this debate is that the press are incompetent at the basic thing they are supposed to do: they don’t ask questions people care about. The questions from regular people gave the candidates an opportunity to talk about substantive matters, the press asks stupid gotchas.
In that spirit, here’s my question: we spend over 15% of the GNP on medical and health services, half again as much as other developed nations. Is that a reasonable allocation of our resources? How do your medical plans improve that ratio?
selise @ 177
The Clintons vote for the Iraq war is emblematic of genuine careerism, do not read the NIE, only think about the vote in terms of personal interests. Yes, in that way the Clintons vote for the Iraq war was genuine.
Wow, OldCoastie: You Warrior! Go kick some butt. Tell the Sec of State you’re letting her/him know first, before you go to the newspapers.
CalGeorge @ 180
A serious question..have you reviewed her voting record or are you relying on the “Common Wisdom” for example she is ranked #1 by progressive punch for voting against corporate subsidies.
Susan in Iowa @ 155
Did you miss his behavior during the Lamont campaign. It’s not a silly insult.
Steve @181:
“‘09 is going to be a Democratic President’s “intersection” with History and it is going to be a brutal and frustrating 8 years. Nuances of policy isn’t going to mean a thing..it’s going to be a back alley knife fight for the future of our Country. Who do you want in the alley? That is the bottom line.”
My point exactly, though I was viewing it more from the backhoe and machete viewpoint rather than the knifefight, but you and I are together here. The question is who is capable of doing the dirty, nasty job – who has the guts to mete out justice and do the cleaning up? That is the question. But who has the spine and the distance to do it?
Emma @ 20
they were indeed good….but the corporate media has taken over the game so their superstar village idiots can earn their bread…it’s a shame also both Dems & Repubs have moved away from the League…
Scarecrow, re Dodd’s Spanish: I think he was just saying he learned to speak Spanish in the Peace Corps, and a few other pleasantries. I understood most of it. It was just to show that he really does speak it, and he spoke really fast, which shows that he didn’t just prep it for the debate.
Toby Wollin @ 193
I do like your ’style’.
Backhoes and machetes! For sure!!!
Susan in Iowa @ 155
Quite honestly. Try and see where some of us are coming from. I could come up with a litany of valid complaints against Biden. I don’t like my opinions called “silly.”
Plenty of people who have met politicians suddely get hooked. You don’t know who many people in CT think HoJoe is their best friend because they talked in a diner.
Scarecrow @ 172
Okay the NYT has a great link with videos and a transcript — but the part in Spanish is not written out, so you’ll have to listen to the video. Go to the section on immigration and terrorism to find the questioner; Dodd speaks to the question after Richardson.
Mui, I don’t know what his Lamont campaign crime was, but he is a decent, smart, sincere man with a long track record on civil rights, equal pay, violence against women, and a lot of other issues I care about. I am doing everything I can to help him in the Iowa caucuses, and have met him at three events here. I also was on a call the night before last with about 100 other Iowa women where he spoke from the heart about why these issues matter. He is a remarkable man, and the lizard thing just rubs me the wrong way.
Just wondering, was ANYONE talking universal health care in 2004? Except Kucinich, of course. My recollection is that none of the candidates made universal health care a priority. And Hillary? A quick google revealed that in 2004, she was co-authoring “healing health care through electronic records, etc” small-bore proposals with Bill Frist.
Susan in Iowa @ 200
And a history of closing ranks to protect fake Democrats from primary challengers.
The best part about Hil is that if she gets the nomination, approximately 50% of the 24 percenters’ heads will explode.
HRC for the backhoe phase, Dodd for the Constitutional machete work and Kucinich for the (nuanced) long-term reality needs?
Oops, that’s tri-angulation!
But, perhaps what is best for the nation.
mui @ 202
And the facts are…?
Susan in Iowa @ 200
Flashback. Incumbency protection racket.
LOL. True.
Those were the worst questions in a single debate that I have seen in a while. They were naive, misleading, and mostly irrelevant. It was almost sad.
Wolf Bitzer is a big joke. Driver’s licences? really? It was almost painful to watch…
And, was the crowd stocked with Clinton supporters or what? and why in the world would they allow all of the spin to be done by people directly associated with Clinton – James Carville? Absoultely ridiculous…
Hee, hee! Zinger of the week! I’ll diggit just for this little nugget alone.
Gracias!
Susan in Iowa,
I applaud Biden for his support of VAWA too. But, please, before you sign up for his bandwagon, do a little research on his ties to the credit card industry and his role in bankruptcy “reform.” He may support women’s rights, but he’s quite happy to throw working people and the middle class under the bus to please his bankrollers. If there’s a genuine campaign finance scandal out there, its name is Joe Biden.
The format of the debate was ridiculous. Yes or No answers! Asking “each” of the candidates to respond, then skipping Kucinich. Kucinich is terrific, wish he were electable. Biden was better than I would have given him credit for – his son is in Iraq, right? I think that has changed him, straightened his priorities out a bit. Doesn’t have as much to lose politically.
Dodd was refreshingingly straight talking. He’s impressive. Edwards had a few good moments, but couldn’t grab the energy of the place and couldn’t get his message across.
Obama – did somebody say about him last night he knows a lot of words? That pretty much sums it up.
Clinton. Hmmm. She’s strong that’s for sure. And smart as hell.
STTP in Ohio @ 37
‘Switch-Blade Hill’
She’s one tough mutha;
when she narrows her
eyes, watch out brudda!
Pawsitive @ 210
And don’t blame us for having long memories.
Mui, that post was from July, during the primary. If it had been from the fall, after the Democratic party chose its nominee, your attack might have merit. But during the primary, people should support whoever they want. For the same reason, I will work to get Clinton elected if she is the nominee, even though I do not support her in the slightest right now. I would have supported Lieberman if he was the nominee, even though I can’t stand him.
Maybe after serving in congress over three decades with someone you get to be friends. I don’t know what happened in that race, but I am trying to pick a President, and Biden is far and away the most qualified. I do not regard him as “my best friend because I met him in a diner,” in your ever-so-complimentary framing. I actually did see him in a diner, once, but I am not that stupid.
carolyn urban @ 211
Do you think that Kucinich might ever be ‘electable’? And please, don’t be ’short’ with me.
IrishJim @ 51
I believe you’re right!
Susan in Iowa @ 215
There seems to be a misunderstanding. Mui actually called him a lounge. Apparently it was full of reptiles, but the ad hominem name was “lounge.”
Susan in Iowa @ 215
It wasn’t a mere matter of choice. It was protection incumbency racket. That is the difference. Holy Joe was indefensible. The whole idea was to prevent him from being challenged in the first place. I am surprised that I have to explain this.
Pawsitive @ 210
Really? Finance scandal? Speaking of research, have you gone to Opensecrets.org and looked at his contributors? Try it, and compare him with, say, Dodd, who is a darling of FDL at the moment. Dodd far outpaces him in contributions from big banking interests. I like Dodd, too, and if Biden is not viable in my caucus, that is where I am going with my support. I have researched both of them, and you are just wrong.
Biden is something like 98th in personal wealth in the Senate. He made a camapaign promise, in response to a question at a Rotary Club meeting during his first campaign, that he would not own stock or accept honoraria if he was elected, and kept the promise. So he lives on his Senate salary and doesn’t get big speaking fees. If he was corrupt, he would be richer.
I did not agree with his vote on the bankruptcy bill, and if that is your main voting issue you should not vote for him. But the bill had provisions in it for getting money to women from men who defaulted on child support, which he fought for, and MNBA employs a lot of people in his state.
My issues are war and peace. I think the next president is not going to have the luxury of a learning curve. I am tired of being scared of what is going on in Washington, and want someone who is up to the job. Biden is smart, he understands a lot of issues in depth, and he has a long track record from which you could discern what he will do. Compare his interest group ratings with the other candidates, and you will find that he is a strong liberal with a great record on civil rights, the environment, labor and a bunch of other issues.
Kucinich: I’d vote for him. But looking at the electorate, I don’t see a country that is ready to elect Kucinich. If we went through some great upheaval, some sea change of consciousness, and people generally started paying attention, instead of relying on sound bites and image, then perhaps.
David W. Bartoo @ 216
Well, I’d vote for him, but I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 (don’t jump on me, I’m from Minnesota, so my electoral votes were safe and I think a third party candidate needs support — I didn’t even blink at Ralph in 2004). But the problem with Dennis is simply this, truly progressive people like him too much for all the right reasons. His logic, grasp of the facts, and overall rationale are spot on for what I want to hear; and, it scares the living shit out of the truly conservative, god-fearing, change avoiding, uninformed who still have as much right to a vote as the rest of us. So, short answer, no. Tell you what, though, if someone grabbed him up as a VP candidate (someone with both more estrogen and huevos than the rest of the field), it would sure make me feel better about giving her my vote.
mui @ 219
The ‘Incumbency Protection Racket’.
Hmmmm, mui that’s got ‘legs’. Short, sweet and to the point.
Wasn’t ‘Switch-Blade Hill’ playin’ in that tourney as well? Seems so ta me . . .
Sounds like another night of softball.
Clinton had an opportunity to break new ground in health care policy and walked away from it. This is as important a fact about her character and judgment as her votes affecting Iraq and Iran foreign policy of the Republican White House.
Susan in Iowa @ 219
did dodd vote for the bankrupcy bill (or other anti-consumer bills in support of the banking industry)? serious question… thanks!
mui @ 214
So what you’re saying is that your choice for President will be determined by issues such as who the candidate supported in the 2006 CT Senate primary? If your vote constitutes political payback, that is your right, but be sure to throw the Clintons in there, too. And don’t ever support Barabara Boxer again. She bad.
I sent Ned Lamont money, so I put some skin in that game even though I live in Iowa. But I do not support Biden or oppose Clinton because of who they liked in the Lieberman/Lamont race. What we are doing is too important and too serious, in my opinion, to use such inconsequential measures of intelligence, experience and rectitude.
Why is there not more media coverage on Biden, Richardson, Dodd and Kucinich? I don’t think the media is doing justice to American people by focusing only on the forerunners. American people deserve to know all perspectives, not just the ones the media has chosen. We are not dumb and we can make our own decisions.
Another debate where Biden clearly demonstrated that he is on another level than the others. Dodd has his moments too. Either would crush any GOP nominee. If Hillary (or Edwards somehow) gets the nomination, we’re done. Period.
Sue @ 227
You really didn’t need to say any more than that. Which is why, every damn day, I’m thankful for fdl!
johnSwifty @ 222
Hello, John;
It is too bad we are so ‘out of it’, but as carolyn suggested, maybe ‘events’ can have educational value in the longish run . . .
The shortish term ain’t lookin’ so good.
So long as mere sound-bite opinion is equated with carefully considered analysis and Diebold prevails, ignorance is a fine excuse, but the ‘nobility’ of America’s ignorant arrogance might get the rest of the world’s attention long before we can achieve collective wisdom and mend our ways.
Interesting times, my friend, interesting times.
Sue @ 227
Paul Lukasiak had a theory that resonates with me at Howie’s DownWithTyranny blog a few weeks ago. His thought is that the MSM wants Clinton because they think the Repubs can beat her. Their frontrunners are the first woman, and the first African-American, and the MSM is pretty sure neither of them can win. I’ll see if I can find his piece. It was really good.
Paul’s article is in three parts: the first is here.
The second is about the GOP. The third is here.
Susan in Iowa @ 232
Thank you for those links, Susan.
David W. Bartoo @ 230
Aye!
Curse or cure, it ain’t boring!
Susan in Iowa @ 226
No I didn’t say that. It partly gells my position. It still galls me that Biden et al descended on us CT dems like a pack of baying hyenas. Dodd was in between a rock and a hard wall. I can’t say the same for the others. as for Biden, I am not enamored by his record. At the Russert debate he asnwered to questions very well and that sat back and mugged for the camera so to speak. He made flippant holy joe remarks about Plame, and as a consequence Joe Wilson has said he will support any Dem, BUT Biden. And now I am sick of talking about Mr. Hairplugs, so I am sorry if I offended you, but we are only human with passions et al.
I have to say that Biden was very impressive in the debate last night. Several of his colleagues on stage even agreed with him on several issues. However, this morning, when I read CNN.com’s article on the debate, this is all they had to say about Biden: “The American people don’t give a darn about any of this stuff that’s going on up here,” said Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware.” Come on…Give me a break!Is CNN doing this on purpose? I hope I am not the only naive one.
In these troubled and dire time we live in, Joe Biden, to me, encompasses all that we desperately need for our nation:
1) Intelligence
2) Experience in ALL phases of government
3) Strength
4) Respect from world leaders
5) Diplomacy
6) Command of issues
7) Solutions to problems that face our nation
8) Honesty
9) Integrity
10) Respect and trust from his peers
11) Respect and trust from the people who follow him
12) an EXPERT in foreign policy
Joe Biden certainly meets ALL of the criteria above.
I pray and hope every day that Mr. & Mrs. America, the people of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina know in their hearts, that if we lose Joe Biden, we’ll have lost one of the best Presidents our nation will ever have.
Please watch a video I produced to show my support for Senator Biden. If you support him, please send the link below to family and friends, and ask them to do the same.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4
mui @ 235
I try to channel my passions into action. It doesn’t bring me any satisfaction to talk about lounge lizards and hairplugs. What’s next? Edwards’ haircut? Hillary’s cleavage? That is the kind of dreck that the MSM pours over us every day because they are too lazy to research real stuff, and it does NOTHING to get our country back on track.
johnSwifty @ 234
Thanks for ‘aye’ linkage, and lo these many moons, I’ve thought the inscrutable celestial wisdoms
had ‘invented’ one of the best, ‘ever thus’ insights
for humane perspective.
OldCoastie @ 103
By all means get in touch with Sec. State. All of those signatures should be invalidated.
grayslady @ 142
They also REPRESENT people, corporations and organizations, and can use the access that contributions entail to discuss those issues with the politicians. Lawyers can represent Special Interests…Trial Lawyers ARE a special interest. As people have pointed out, there are LIBERAL and PROGRESSIVE PAC’s. So the wholesale condemnation of PAC’s seems odd…in fact, isn’t a major contributor to Edwards “Blue America”?
While I’m not sure if “Blue America” is technically a PAC…it operates very similar to one by collecting and distributing contributions and dispensing them to selected candidates.
“Clinton proved once again why she’s a formidable candidate.”
Say what, ‘Crow? She has no more interest in seeing Iraq brought up as THE campaign issue than do george bush and the GOP. How is anyone who can only soft-pedal Iraq, going to be a “formidable candidate”?
Please; explain that.
“After that, Edwards’ continued efforts to imply Clinton is as personally corrupt as the system they all swim in probably didn’t help him with those already in his camp.”
I was delighted that Edwards is doing that. For the simple reason that there is a ton of evidence pointing to the truth of it. She has taken money from some really unsavory people.
As has been pointed out on here numerous times, she has unabashedly schmoozed with FoxNews and Rupert Murdoch. And she’s hand in glove with AIPAC.
The campaign-contribution issue with Hsu has not even come into play yet, but if we’re stupid enough to nominate her, the GOP will have it (and Hsu’s trial) right at hand to beat her with.
With our war dead now approaching 4,000; with the Iraqi dead in the hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more; with the cost of the idiocy nearing half-a-trillion dollars; with the meter running at that same $2.5 billion a week; AND WITH NO FUCKING END IN SIGHT; she STILL will not express remorse for her vote to authorize. All she can say is: “Knowing what I know now, I would vote differently.”
Whoop-de-doo…Senator leading-the-nomination-race! There are conservative REPUBLICANS trying to excuse themselves with THAT.
Tell it to the 21 democratic Senators who had the courage and perception to vote AGAINST the invasion.
That booing response to anyone taking her to task for all of this has now become the generic response to criticism of Clinton.
Don’t talk about the facts of her record.
She enthusiastically supported Joe Lieberman in the primary against Ned Lamont, a good man, AND a candidate who unapologetically ran on an anti-war platform.
And she got a pretty good going over on here for doing it. Does the fact that she’s running for the democratic nomination somehow change that?
BTW, ‘Crow, I think the gender card is still very much in play. In fact, I’ll play it myself; again: If she were a man named Smith, then, with “his” track record, you would never have written that opening piece. Instead, “he” would be at the top of our yellow-dog democrat shitlist, and instead of praising her, you’d be asking for campaign donations for her opponent.
There have been some fine posts on here, by staff and readers alike, about bush’s push for the senate to declare Iran’s Republican Guards a “terrrrist” organization.
As has been pointed out, it was, and is, PRECISELY the kind of agit-prop that they used to drag us into Iraq. And Clinton rolled over like a puppy for it. It was nauseating to watch.
“I suspect republicans, who might have had glimmers of hope watching the cable commentariat belittle Clinton gaffes for two weeks, are much more worried after last night.”
Scarecrow!
NO intelligent republican is “worried” about the possibility of seeing Hillary Clinton receive the democratic nomination. They KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the only chance they have to avoid a democratic landslide is if we are politically suicidal enough to nominate her.
That little clip of John McCain’s supporter acidly inquiring of him: “How are we going to beat the bitch?” was nothing more and nothing less than what the reaction of republicans AND conservative independents, and even a lot of conservative democrats, will be to her nomination.
Those people are going to turn out in battalions to vote against her. They will be wrecking the voting machines, they’ll be punching them so hard.
It is no accident that, in your 18 paragraphs, the word “electability” did not appear.
I can just about promise you, and anyone else defending her, that Edwards and Obama will be bringing it up shortly, and if we want to win this election, they damn well better.
cinnamonape,
Blue America is indeed a PAC, with the normal limits on donations.
OldCoastie @ 123
you have already worked a full day! congrats.
Do not fear the Sec. of State’s. Oversight of charities and prevention of charity fraud is one of its duties and in my experience in the Bluestate one it takes seriously.
speaking of “darlings”…..uh-oh
http://blog.johnedwards.com/st…../2374/6481
Susan,
Dig a little deeper on MBNA, now BoA. They hired Biden’s son out of law school, continue to pay him a six-figure even now that he’s no longer working for them, bought Biden’s house from him. And about those campaign contributions … staff at MBNA are REQUIRED to donate. The leadership circulates memo outlining donation levels expected of each staffer and dictates to whom to donate. MBNA was Bush’s second-largest donor after Enron, largest donor after Enron went belly-up. And what was the first bill Bush proposed — bankruptcy reform, which your candidate has consistently supported in its most repressive guises.
And, no, throwing on clauses about protecting ability to collect child support or damages from abortion protesters doesn’t make it any better. It’s just painting psuedo-feminist lips on a pig.
Other lovely Biden moments: he says the problem with the Democratic party is that it isn’t nice enough to rich people. I’d dig up the cite, but I’m running out the door.
I stand by my claim that he’s part of the biggest campaign finance scandal going.
I also think that Partition is a loony idea — see how well that worked when the British used it to try and get out of their mess in India — but that’s a whole ‘nother kettle, and I really must go.
Susan in Iowa @ 184 In Biden’s answer, he also mentioned that he had warned Conoleeza about it when she testified in front of his committee.
My take is that he thinks war with Iran is a distinct possibility, and that answer was less about wowing the Democrats than it was a shot across the bow to the Bush Administration.
I think Condi also realizes that Bush and Cheney would be in severe political trouble if Cheney gets his way. I notice that she ALSO has said quite explicitly that she doesn’t view Kyl-Lieberman as representing any sort of authorization for attacking Iran. AND she said that the Administration would have to come to Congress to gain such authorization.
That, to me, indicates that Condi is pushing back against Cheney. By publicly saying this she absolutely undercuts Cheney in a manner that makes it very difficult to silence her. If Cheney retaliates it would signal that HE DOES INTEND TO ATTACK IRAN WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL…even without a provocation.
It would make Condi an Elliot Richardson figure, amazingly! Instantly you would have millions protesting her sacking! One of the oddest damn things in American history if this happened.
Hill was on fire. She did a great job. She shut up Edwards nicely.
I did not have a problem with how she was “attacked” at the last debate. To me, the questions were fair…maybe the intent of the questions… not so much.
I do not like Edwards. I just can not put my finger on why I do not like him. However, last nights debate may have given me some clues as to why I dislike him. He fidgets too much for a grown man. Did you notice doing the second half of the debate when all the candidates were seated. He keep moving the his foot that was crossed. That bothers me. His facial expressions also bothers me. When he is trying to make a point he blinks way too much. He reminds me of the mega preacher Olsen…it bothers me. It is like they are hiding something.
Pawsitive; agree on Biden.
But, partition may be a loony idea, but it’s what’s for dinner, whether one year from now, or 10.
The only way to prevent it is at the point of the military-occupation gun.
Saying otherwise implies that one thinks that the factions will make the humongous compromises necessary to hold the country together, and anyone who says that, really needs to come up with some evidence for it.
BTW, the Kurds, as we know, are already selling the oil they now control, out the back door; much to the chagrin of the “central government”.
Talabani and Barzani and their…constituents have about as much loyalty to a “greater Iraq”, as they do to the notion of taking a stroll through downtown Baghdad, after the Peshmerga have been helping our troops try to keep a lid on the place.
I don’t think CNN tried to bring down Clinton, I think they helped her (after their first setup failed although she did look confused about 10 minutes in).
I can’t explain it but it was almost like it was a debate about debates – I mean the whole thing was terrible. Rather than focus on the issues behind the friction it was about the friction and angst…
Anyway she is more popular and out in front, and while I am not sure having to attack the front runner will work I was a little disgusted that her supporters booed the other people trying to have an actual debate and have a debate where people actually talk about their real positions. I do think (though I would have to re-watch it and you can’t pay me enough to do something like that) that they might have dwelled to much on the fact that they were attacking Hillary (the setup, the turn of phrases) and should have just done their attack in strictly factual terms (Obama and Edwards seemed to think they needed to say why it was so important that they attack Clinton so the country will open their eyes – well its eyes wide shut time so that will not work)
Just how much NOT a debate it was shone through so hard.
Again I found myself thinking in the little time they had that Dodd, Biden, and a bit DK did much better and are much more consistent. The top 3 all just have a moment or two in the debate in all that time they have.
DK also looked really tired and fedup with the lies.
Lastly CNN kneecapped all the Dems in any case by marching them out to take bows and pictures – then did punditry before the debate started to set it up… what the hell don’t waste 7 minutes out front with a bunch of nothing. Let them speak.
Of course on the clock no one outside of the front 3 got to say a peep before 23 minutes in.
If that is a debate then I don’t know anymore.
To Hillary haters Wake up.. Edwards and Obama will never win general election. Ask yourself do you want Hillary or Giuliani as the next president. Be practical at least for once.
Your right – I forgot about those stupid questions that kept coming up about “boys and girls”. Uggg. 30 minutes of that and I will never get it back.
Avi Patil @ 250
That statement is without merit.
By far the best and most effective attack was DK slashing Edwards.
All Edwards could do was talk about something else.
(This was the free trade stuff).
Pawsitive: You “stand by your claim” of corruption, offer no links to back up any of the mud you’re throwing and you’re running out the door.
If Biden is so corrupt, how come he’s not rich? Like the frontrunners? If you’re interested in facts, try this fact. Every single one of the candidates exceeded Biden in contributions from the banking industry. Clinton and Obama at the top. Her take was seven times what Biden’s was.
“He fidgets too much for a grown man.”
!!!
By all means, let’s keep it…substantive, and not talk about superficial things like Clinton’s unspinnable track record of voting and schmoozing with the bloody-handed idjits that have brought us Iraq.
Nosireee! Let’s get down to the nitty-gritty and talk about the important stuff. :o)
RedX; I thought it had some merit. :o)
It gave those of us who think that Clinton is a political train wreck waiting to happen, if we nominate her, a chance to ask AVI, why he/she thinks that we HAVE to have a choice of republican-lite, or republican?
In fact, it’s Clinton’s supporters who are trying so desperately to force THAT on the democratic party.
They’re doing it for the simple reason that they know she has to win the nomination VERY quickly, or she can’t win it at all.
I’ll go them one better; if she hasn’t cinched it by the time the New Hampshire voters have spoken, she may very well be done for.
I also question the notion that her lead is growing in Iowa and N.H. From what I read, it’s shrinking, and it couldn’t happen to a better Joe Lieberman buddy.
cinnamonape @ 246
That’s a pretty interesting take on this. I have been deeply worried about the Bushies attacking Iran since I read Fallows’ article in the Atlantic in 2004. If you google Sam Gardiner and Iran, that and a lot of other stuff about it will pop up. I ask candidates about it when I get the chance. One of the reasons I decided to support Biden was that I liked what he said about it, and he has the position and the guts to try to stop it.
I have no doubt that Cheney is going to try to manuever an attack on Iran. That is why Kyl-Lieberman was so worrisome. We have troops stationed within 20 miles of the Iranian border, and it won’t take much to stage a “provocation” that can be used as a pretense for striking at Iran in that area, and if the Iranians take the bait and retaliate, we are into it.
WOW! I’ve had a revelation! The scales have fallen from my eyes! Yer all right(you HillaryaHatters that is) She IS EXACTLY the same as Bush! NOOOOO difference WHATSOEVER! That’s her nefarious plan, get ALL the Lesbians and single mothers along with the communists AND the repugnantklaner votes! She IS, she IS the Antichrist! Thanks sooooo much for your nonstop, nonsensical help. I woulda made a TERRIBLE error voting for her! But now I’ll vote for a REAL winner…Lyndon LaRouche!
Scarecrow @ 65
Thats because they know a Dem is going to win the WH and likley to boot also have a strategy to bog down Hillary. Basically Clinton had a hit job on him to weaken him. Well not getting a more progressive candidate into the WH is just starting with a smaller tree that they have to chop down — and they still have a sharp ax.
I do think that the Booing was not just some natural reaction of the masses. It would seem pretty obvious that the Clinton supportor could not take it and started yelling BOO.
redx@260
If you have ever seen a live Clinton event, you know that they are organized in a way that would make the Borg look like Democrats. When I heard the booing I did not think there was any chance that it was spontaneous. Her campaign is very aggressive, and organizing supporters to ask the “right” questions or boo the opposition is just par for the course.
doug @ 91
Actually after DK’s attack on Edwards I think the best attack was Obama on Clinton for the 6%. That is one F’ed up small middle class. One of the best lines and best points and the guy got BOO’ed for it. I am not an Obama fan myself, but he was spot on.
redx @ 262
Clinton isn’t being straight on social security. Saying there will be a commission later is a dodge. Either the retirement age will have to be raised, or the cap at $97k will have to be raised. This isn’t rocket science. Biden says he’ll raise the cap. Obama would too, and I think Dodd is for that.
Elliott @ 28
Amy Goodman and Helen Thomas
Avi, wake up. If you want Rudy to be pres, vote for Hillary. If you want a Democrat to win, then vote Biden. He will CRUSH Rudy. Hillary will not add anything. It will be 72 and 84 replayed.
Come on people.
Tanbark at 242 etc: you are so.fucking.right.
I mean…correct. :o)
OldCoastie @ 41
Yes, I suppose you could say she did it backwards.
If she’s so intelligent, as some posts in this thread have suggested, why does she have trouble deciding what she’s for or against?
It seems to me she’s better at this game than Obama, but she’s still making mistakes (like voting for Kyl-Lieberman and being in favor of, but not supporting Spitzer’s driver’s license policy) over time. Edwards has been consistent and not made a single error, that I can think of.
Bring on Bill, Edwards needs better debate opponents!
MarkH@#264: excellent answer! :o)
And speaking of that, if someone else posted this, I apologize for the repeat, but I didn’t know that Campbell Brown, recently hired by CNN, is married to Dan Senor, who worked for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq, and who is reportedly a campaign adviser for Mitt Romney.
I think that little factoid deserves some kind of disclaimer. :o)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/dan-senor-romney
I saw no angry bitch last night (and, of course, if it comes down to it I’ll have no problem voting for her over whichever egregious hypocrite the Republicans go for) but, sitting here in Iowa, I’m going to have to make a statement and go for Dennis. When, as is likely, the Dennis group turns out not to be viable, I’ll then have to decide who has the best chance of stopping Hillary and go there. Six percent probably is about the actual size of the middle class by now. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be the 6% Hillary’s worried about.
Katie Jensen @ 63
It is a powerful message and a long time in arriving. But, it is only one part of what she would bring to the presidency.
Tell me, would you vote for a woman for president if she were a Republican? Is the feeling that strong?
If she’s so intelligent, why did she triangulate to the right and piss off enough of her natural progressive base, that in the poll on here, she got 10% of the vote from us?
(while John Edwards got 43% of it.)
Or do her supporters and defenders think that the trade-off for all the conservative “support” she got from doing it, was a politically savvy thing to do?
Wolf and Hillarys paid plants couldn’t beat Obama and the truth. !!
“”PLEASE YOUTUBE”" THE IRAN VOTE AND IRAQ WAR VET CLAPPING AGAINST ATTACKING IRAN WITH HIS MOM
Hillary also stated that she thought the american education system served us well ?? NOT ! !
AND THE TAX CAP
Hillary votes no to win votes but she won’t speak the truth. Barack has the courage to speak the truth. Citizens need everybody to have drivers liscense so they can be monitored for insurance and accidents and alcohol related deaths. He also pointed out the need to PASS an imigration bill to get those people on a path to citizenship. They will be needed to feel like americans so they can keep our social secuirty system fluid.
Hillary also got BUSTED on her statement about not RAISING THE CAP on social secuirty because she says the tax increase will hurt the middle class!
Barack stated that the 6% getting paid 97,000.00 a year is NOT THE MIDDLE CLASS !
Hillary also stated that she thought the american education system served us well ?? NOT ! !
Hillary also got BUSTED on her vote for the kyle Lieberman and the mother and the Iraq war veteran son who clapped when the rest of the candidates pointed out they were AGAINST the Kyle Lieberman bill to make the Iranian guard a terrorist organization and how the bill also allows for Bush to keep troops in iraq !!
Yes Hillary got busted BIG TIME the truth always comes out.
Thank God we have a candidate like Barack Obama who speaks the truth and doesn’t shift back and forth trying to get votes. Hillarys thinking people won’t catch her shifting her point of view from one location (town) to another as she lies lies lies trying to sway the american voters !!
Hillary on pakistan http://www.liberaloasis.com/20…..kistan.php
Here’s Sen. Hillary Clinton discussing Pakistan at Thursday night’s debate: = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..nted=print
… there’s absolutely a connection between a democratic regime and heightened security for the United States. That’s what’s so tragic about this situation. After 9/11, President Bush had a chance to chart a different course, both in Pakistan and in Afghanistan, and could have been very clear about what our expectations were. We are now in a bind, and it is partly — not completely, but partly — a result of the failed policies of the Bush administration.
So, where we are today means that we have to say to President Musharraf: Look, this is not in your interest either. This is not in the interest of the United States. It is not in your interest to either stay in power or stay alive.
Sure sounds like she wished Bush pushed for democratic reform in Pakistan, instead of propping up Musharraf’s dictatorship.
But here’s what she said in a debate from August, = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..nted=print
when criticizing Sen. Barack Obama’s pledge to strike terrorists in Pakistan’s border region if Musharraf would not act on actionable intelligence:
I think it is a very big mistake to telegraph that and to destabilize the Musharraf regime, which is fighting for its life against the Islamic extremists who are in bed with al Qaeda and Taliban.
Of course, as everyone now knows, Musharraf is primarily fighting for his life against lawyers and judges, not the tribal militants.
Sen. Clinton is not alone among Dem candidates in supporting Musharraf.
Both Sen. John Edwards and Sen. Chris Dodd have expressed support for Musharraf to maintain “stability.”
Whereas Obama, Gov. Bill Richardson and Sen. Joe Biden = http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3498294
have been more consistent in supporting democratic principles.
Hey, guys; let me toss this out:
If Gore doesn’t come in, whom do you think he will endorse, and WHEN will he do it?
(Again, I love the irony in that, after 2000, he might be picking the next president of the U.S. :o) )
The audience booing was a stunt. The audience was packed with Hillary supporters. Just like Obama at the JJ dinner in Iowa getting the biggest cheer.
It amazes me that CNN planted a question that even she would not have the guts to plant. Obvious play on boxers vs briefs. Must’ve turned the stomachs of Obama and Edwards to end the debate on such a trivial and scripted note.
Scarecrow @ 100
Basically, we’re free here in America (despite what the Republicans argue) and there is no compelling reason for any part of our government to interfere with a woman’s health care.
We are free, aren’t we?
MarkH @ 270
I am old enough to remember voting for Geraldine Ferraro, and I am thrilled that Hillary Clinton is a viable candidate. This is a landmark year for women, with the candidacy of the first woman with a serious opportunity to be a presidential nominee. But even as we celebrate her achievement, we should look hard at the records of all the candidates, and what they say they will do if elected. Joe Biden has spent more than thirty years demonstrating that he has great respect for women, compassion for their struggles, and commitment to their needs and concerns, and he will go to the mat for them when it counts. If Hillary were a middle-aged white man I would not give her a second look.
Loo Hoo. @ 117
This hasn’t been discussed really, but is that ’scared’ look the one you want for your president?
Have you yet to see Edwards, Biden or Dodd look ’scared’?
Think about it.
Scarecrow, your posts are now completely irrelevant to me. Anyone that uses the “won” moniker in this type of format is being intellectually dishonest. You and James Carville can start writing your opinions for the next debate. I’ll help you out: “Wow, Hillary really hit it out of the park this time! I don’t know if the others can recover in time. The Iowa caucuses are just a couple weeks away…”
cinnamonape @ 127
Are we talking about the German bank Deutsche Bank AG which being a foreign entity is prohibited from giving to American candidate’s campaigns? Maybe it’s an American branch whose employees are giving?
Sure lots of people who work for big corporations support these candidates. That’s inevitable.
Edwards takes no money from PACS or lobbyists.
Something wrong with that?
Hillary takes money from everybody, including dirty money from overseas. Google it for numerous stories.
eCAHNomics @ 161
Well, they do enjoy leaving a bag of flaming crap on the doorstep. remember, Bay of Pigs for Kennedy and Somalia, Waco and bin Laden for Clinton.
They didn’t have the opportunity to really do that with Carter, but they got him at the end of his term.
“if Hillary were a middle-aged white man, I would not give her a second look.”
Susan; love your honesty! :o)
Here’s a (totally non-sexual) hug. :o) )
Some thinks about Biden I like; some things I don’t like. So far, I find fewer things to dislike, about John Edwards.
But you’re on the front lines there…
I have an inherent distrust of candidate-commissioned polls, and I don’t have a LOT of faith in the supposedly big, “neutral” pollers…
How are things FEELING in Iowa?
Is Iraq a big issue there?
Is it the biggest?
Do you think that Clinton is gaining or losing support? Is the “planted question” issue hurting her? And if she’s losing support, to whose benefit do you see that?
Thanks, TB.
Katie Jensen @ 63
But she is part of the neocon machine!! That is exactly the problem with her. She’s owned stock and barrel by the AEI/MURDOCH/AIPAC and despite her pathetic attempt to sound reasonable, drinks from the same well.
Interesting post here on the debate. Seems there was a claque. Guess who?
portia.vz @ 169
If appearances are all that matters then George W. Bush could be considered a decent president. Except for that weird box on his back during the debates with Kerry his suits fit beautifully and his hair is always nicely trimmed. He smiles quite a lot too.
What’ the difference Dubya or Hill?
pallewog @ 278
Dude, your comments are factually irrelevant: “moniker,” I do not think that word means what you think it means.
As Edwards said last night, none of them was perfect. They all have their flaws. The issue is who we think will be able to do what they say they will do once elected. Clinton just sounded too smooth to me. She is a well polished politician, but not someone I trust to solve real problems for real people. Biden, Richardson and Kucinich appeared more down to earth to me.
IrishJim @ 160
Because it was a bit of a kerfuffle. The sum total was something like $6000 from 3 individuals out of the 141 pardoned and 40 who received commutations. Actually only a small number of people appear to have donated anything approaching the $250 reporting level to ANY Federal Candidate. In fact many of these people don’t even produce a Google search, outside of the fact that they are on repeated “Clinton pardon lists” (or Right Wing commentaries on them) or original crime reports. I don’t think that most of these folks actually have made enough money to make substantial contributions or simply aren’t interested in the political process.
I started going through the list as well and found a small number of those pardoned actually have given reportable amounts to other candidates, both Democratic or Republican. It doesn’t seem that there has been any successful outreach by the Clinton campaign to these people. And I can’t see that there was ever any quid pro quo for their pardon. Most had served their time long before the oardon. It simply cleared their record.
Here are the folks that have donated to Hillary’s campaign.
David Herdlinger former prosecutor from Springdale, Ark., originally plead guilty in 1986 to charges of mail fraud and taking bribes to reduce or drop charges against defendants charged with drunken driving offenses. Sentenced to three years in prison and made restitution of $10,000. Currently a life and business coach in Georgia, he donated $1,000 to Sen. Clinton’s presidential campaign in August.
Insurance agent Alfredo Regalado, was convicted in 1987 to 3 years probation and a $2000 fine for failing to “report the transportation of currency in excess of $10,000 into the United States,” He gave Hillary Clinton $2,000,
While even “kerfuffle” is probably too strong a word to describe this, it is nonetheless amusing that these two were pardoned for bribery and money laundering crimes.
John Deutch CIA Director was accused of having mishandled government secrets-but was pardoned before the Department of Justice could file the proper paperwork against him. Deutch, now a professor at MIT, gave Sen. Clinton the maximum allowable donation, $2,300.
That’s it.
Katie, when she won that N.Y. senate seat, I was delighted. And I was thinkin’:
“Hot damn! Our first lady-prez; comin’ up!”
Now, despite what she’s done, and with the damage she CAN do, I will vote for her in the general, if the democrats are stupid enough to nominate her, but I will do it knowing that we have decided AGAIN, to try to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Stogo is right. She is clearly NOT part of the solution; she’s part of the problem.
CalGeorge @ 180
As a progressive I wish she hadn’t sought to pass legislation outlawing flag burning (freedom of speech issue there), voted for the Iraq War (understandable since Bush lied to the Senate), voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment to name part of the Iranian military a terrorist organization and uses Mark Penn (an anti-union guy) in her campaign. I also wish she hadn’t called herself a Progressive since she obviously isn’t. She’s a DLC Democrat. Period.
Tanbark, the same things are important here that are important everywhere else, plus the farm bill and ethanol.
I think the possibility of war with Iran, and the sad reality of the Iraq war, are very important. Lots of people know someone in the National Guard or the Army. Last winter when the power was out for five days, the National Guard took a long time to get to us with a generator for the water tower. People know why that is.
All that is different about Iowa is the proximity of candidates to people. We have the opportunity to assess the authenticity of the candidate’s supposed personal qualities. All the clicheed insults that appear upthread about Biden will not survive a close encounter with the man.
Charisma is not enough–I loved Howard Dean from the day I met him and Kerry left me cold, but I caucused for Kerry because of his depth in national security and foreign policy. I thought we needed that. So Iowa is not about falling in love with a candidate. It is about taking his or her measure close up. This year, I have seen every one of them live, some more than once, and been able to ask some of them questions. I also listen to CSPAN a lot, on their Road to the White House series, which I highly recommend.
Those close encounters make it harder to fool people. The only campaign that has made an effort to depart from the norm in Iowa is Clinton’s. Her events are highly scripted, and very few people, sometimes no one, can ask questions. Most of the people she calls on are women. If you look at tape from the New Hampton event, which I think ABC put up, where the guy asked her an Iran question, you might see yellow tape separating her from the crowd and lovely children as a living backdrop under a ginormous banner that filled the camera shot behind them. It’s not the Iowa norm. It was more like the October before the general election.
carolyn urban @ 211
Just curious, what has she said or done that makes you think she’s ’smart as hell’?
Was it the AUMF vote or the Kyl-Lieberman vote or supporting anti-flag-burning legislation or her ability to triangulate better than Euclid?
Maybe it was her support for NAFTA which she now admits doesn’t work or maybe it was how she outsmarted everybody to get us health care reform in 1993. Oh wait, that didn’t happen either.
Get serious folks, this is a huge election and Hillary ain’t a Progressive and is barely a Democrat. She’s more of a geometer.
CinnamonApe; fine, but Norman Hsu raised $850,000 dollars for her. She originally intended to return just $23,000 of it, but the story got legs, and it was starting to hurt her, so she and her staff said they’d return the entire 850 thou.
So far, it looks like they’re waffling on THAT, claiming that the contributions were “bundled”, and they don’t know to whom they should return the funds.
Either way, the relative GOP silence on this speaks volumes. They want her to get the nomination BEFORE they hit her with Hsu.
Here’s the piece: http://apnews.myway.com/articl…..VR8G0.html
Susan@#290; thanks much for the comeback. Trenchant stuff.
Please, as we move into crunch-time, don’t hesitate to give us your thoughts. The Iowa voters, with possible help from Al Gore, may be picking the next president.
I will look for your moniker on here from now on.
Thanks again, TB. :o)
Sue @ 286
Sure, in terms of philosophy, Kucinich wins my heart everytime; in terms of electibility, Edwards’ hairdo is too impressive for words and I’m a sucker for a sweet, southern drawl. In terms of reality, Clinton has the momentum and is the decided choice of the MSM (whether they think she can be beat by a Crazy or a Lazy, or whether they’ve got a backlog of ‘investigative’ facts and they’re too lazy, themselves, to fire up any real journalistic qualities on any of the other candidates…whatever), and much as it sticks in my craw to admit it, she’s handling the adversity she’s come up against pretty well.
I don’t like her corporate interests. I think she owes too many people, too many favors. I think this country has swung so far to the right that her moderate stance would make her mentor, Barry Goldwater, look like a flaming liberal — so I would much prefer a true liberal candidate. But, I’ve got to admit, too, that she has been more impressive as a candidate than anyone else and I might just get stuck with her.
I don’t like that fact, but what am I gonna do, vote for Ron Paul? I just can’t go there either. I sincerely hope Iowa draws a different picture but, whether it does or not, I don’t think it will change the meme spoon-fed to the masses by the MSM. I’ll keep checking back to fdl for something other than pablum.
BTW, Susan; Biden deserves credit for being the first democrat–make that politician–to open say that partition is what needs to happen.
I think it’s the lesser of the evils facing us from the loon-crusade.
It won’t be pretty, but the simple truth is that the only way to hold Iraq together is at the point of permanent military occupation. If the “big three” want to do that, then let them say it, up-front.
In answer to your other questions at 281, I only know four people in my precinct who are definite Clinton supporters. Iowa is difficult to poll. The reason can be illustrated by the following explanation.
There are 99 counties, with varying numbers of precincts. Ours has nine. In my precinct we have about 600 voters, of which two-thirds are Dems, roughly. Of those, 38 showed up on caucus night in 2004. In order for a candidate to be “viable,” 15% of the live bodies there have to be supporters on the first round. In our precinct that means we will need about seven people to get one delegate for Biden on caucus night, if the same number of people show up.
Because so much of Iowa is rural, the rural areas have a disproportionate impact on the result. A precinct in Des Moines could have several hundred people show up. In addition, you can register as a Democrat on caucus night. So Dems who love Ron Paul can go mess with the Repbs. Repubs who want to run against Clinton can do likewise. Independents, ditto.
All of this makes Iowa a ground game. I do not see the big ground organization for Clinton, at least not around here, BUT she has a lot of county chairs and elected officials on her side, which will help on caucus night to persuade people. In this county, she has the county chair and our state rep.
mostest @ 248
He fidgets? You’ve got to be kidding me!
Hillary and Obama both put on fake southern accents and you think Edwards fidgets too much?
Maybe it’s a bit of nervousness. Considering the stress they’re in during the debates they’re probably all jumping out of their skins and just hide it as well as they can.
I’ve heard a lot about Southerners who don’t like Yankees, but I’m beginning to wonder if there isn’t an equally prejudiced group of non-Southerners who ‘just don’t like the accent’.
I’m not saying that it makes people terrible or anything, just that it’s becoming more and more obvious this is a thing which divides Americans.
Hey, if you want to see fidgeting there are two things you should watch: the Kennedy-Nixon debates where Kennedy fidgets and Nixon sweats; a SNL routine (if you can find it) where Martin Short plays a small-time business crook being interviewed by Mike Wallace. Those are priceless.
Susan, cogent stuff.
We’re in your debt for that.
It is needed. Thanks, again. :o)
Tanbark @ 295
Except that’s not what he said. He’s gone out of his way to counter the “partition” label. Here’s the plan. Here’s an op-ed with Les Gelb explaining that he is not advocating partition.
What he is advocating is a federal system somewhat like ours: states within a weaker national government. It is one way to give each of the warring parties something and stop the fighting. While we argue about whether the surge is working, the Iraqis are separating themselves into ethnic enclaves already, to get away from people who are trying to kill them.
Biden has the only plan for leaving Iraq that attempts to do more than leave the conbatants killing each other. Bush’s plan is no plan. There are no other plans. Biden believes that if we leave chaos behind, our grandchildren will find themselves back there in uniform. He has also said that it is up to Iraqis, not to the Senate or George Bush, whether to implement this plan. But if they do not effect some sort of political reconciliation by January 2009, he would pull troops out anyway, rather than leave them as fodder between warring parties in a civil war, which is where we are now.
The hypocrisy of saying that you will cut off funding for the war, but you cannot guarantee having those unfunded troops out by 2013, is not coming from Biden. He has kept voting funding, forcing the administration to buy armored vehicles. He takes a lot of heat for that, including here. But he is the only candidate who will shortly have a son in Iraq, he is the only candidate with a plan to do more than just walk out or stay indefinitely, and he knows what the heck he is talking about.
Here is his speech at the Steak Fry about Iraq. It is short, and sums it up pretty well. And if you want to see what he is really like on the stump, go watch him in a library in Leon, Iowa. There are four videos for this event, (he is not known for brevity in response to questions), but in one of them he describes the Iraq problem in great detail. It might be the third one, in response to a question.
Susan in Iowa @ 296
Susan;
Although I appreciate your words and hope you will continue to bring us ‘ground’ reports, I am considerably less than thrilled to learn how so ‘few’ may ‘impact’ so ‘much’.
How would you feel if, say, Rhode Island and Maryland got to decide whom you got as ‘candidate’ but, that less than two percent of the registered ‘whatevers’ made the ‘choice’?
What would you think of rotating ‘first’ primaries with other states? Barring a national’primary day’, how fair do you believe the current ‘method’ to be?
The choice, of course, will not be up to the people, but to politicians. Just like all ‘electoral reform issues,’ the politicians have the ‘first’ and, crucially, the ‘last’ word on any such decision. Catch-22 everyway, everyday. The myth of America has met the truth of the times. What huge, gigantic elephants must be studiously ignored? Semantic evasion has but little effect on great big hefalumps.
Mesmerizing intellect? Where the hell does that idea come from? When has she spoken of anything with any great command of anything? I bet her IQ might be 110. And I’m being generous.
And frankly, all this stuff about her being “a strong candidate” just makes me sick. She triangulates every issue for where she can pick up the most votes. And her so-called liberal husband jumped far enough to the right to cripple the left in this country because he was supposed to be part of the left. The Clintons were political opportunists in Bill’s terms (however you want to construe the meanings of the word ‘terms’) and didn’t care about what they left behind for the next people to try and deal with. Bill passed that shitty NAFTA bill, that never should have seen the light of day. Know why so many more illegals are moving up here all the time? Because they’re being taken advantage of BIG TIME in their home countries, because of NAFTA.
Being such opportunists, whose stance changes whenever the wind blows, where do they really stand on anything? Who the hell knows?
The Clintons, not denying kids health care for their before-breakfast exercise, can’t be worse than ANY Republican. I don’t think any Democrat besides Feinstein and Lieberman could be. But just because the Clintons are giants among lesser men in respect to the Republicans, doesn’t make either of them giants in my book.
If we’re going to dream, DREAM BIG. Kucinich!
David at 300. It is not a great system and I am not defending it. Even people who live here don’t like it. How would you like to cast your vote in front of your neighbors, and have it not count if the rest of them didn’t like your candidate?
What I would defend is the role of the small state in vetting candidates. If Michigan got first place, the entire campaign would be conducted on television. We’ve all seen that movie, and it is less than edifying. I don’t think Iowa has any special magic. Rhode Island would probably do fine. But we are accustomed to going through this every four years, and have been trained to fulfill our role, along with our local media and now local bloggers. We know we have to show up at events in the spring and summer to make a choice in the following January, and not just one event, but a bunch of them. If Maryland will promise to do that, they’re on.
She still ain’t nuthin but the other wing of the national WarParty:
Voted for Iraq resolution
” ” Qods force resolution
Voted for patriot Act I and II
co-sponsored flag desecration amendment proposal.
FOUR STRIKES and YOU SHOULD BE OUT!
Susan in Iowa @ 302
Susan,
Appreciate your reply and did not think you were defending or advocating. But what you are saying smacks of, forgive me, a kind of incumbency, and if Iowans are so well-trained why do more not consider it their sacred duty to ’show up’. Honor is a stake.
As to having my vote not ‘count,’ I’ve a rather fair amount of experience with that
‘reality’.
The ones who show up are the activists. I said I wasn’t defending it. But. It’s not all bad to have the people who are paying the most attention be the ones who choose. That is true in any primary election.
Susan in Iowa @ 305
Then perhaps, just perhaps, someone besides HRC or one of the other ‘front runners’, so designated by the stellar wisdoms in the msm, might emerge victorious. Should I hold my breath or do Iowans factor in ‘electability’ and all the other ‘pragmatic’ gravitas-laden qualities so beloved by the punditry? Not really giving you a hard time but I’m awfully tired of the ‘conventional’ perspective which delimits and makes a mockery of movement toward genuine ‘participatory’ democracy, silly dreamer that I am.
MarkH @ 284
Fortunately for Clinton, her other attributes more than qualify her for the job. But it was very nice to see someone who looked so upbeat and optimistic and she *did* stand out, not because she was a woman but because she looked energetic and brighter than the others. Never underestimate the value of good makeup and lighting.
pallewog @ 278
Is it possible to disagree with Scarecrow without going into attack mode? Scarecrow has written some of the most kick-ass posts I’ve ever read. Maybe this post is too subtle. I never heard Scarecrow let Clinton off the hook for Kyl/Lieberman and any other egregious stuff. (apologies to egregious))
Susan; Woops.
Sorry to get that wrong. Months ago, when he came to S.C. I seem to remember that he used the “P” word, and if he didn’t, he was sho’nuff’ hinting about it. :o)
Which, as I said, impressed me.
But, I may well have been wrong. :o)
My point is the same I made earlier. I think the notion that Iraq will hold together on it’s own, without our military there to impose that “unity” on the factions, is a fantasy.
And, it’s the kind of “light at the end of the tunnel” fantasy that will aid and abet george bush and the goopers dumping the flaming shitbag in the democrats laps, and then turnING around and beating them to death for “losing Iraq”.
Understand; I STILL favor a complete withdrawal spread out, say, over a period of 3-6 months. That’s plenty of time for the factions to decide if an even bloodier civil conflict than the one which our military is partially suppressing now, is more attractive to them than making the LARGE compromises necessary to avert it.
And here’s the capper, Susan: THEY, and ONLY they, are going to have to make that decision, and they will have to make it 6 months from now, or 6 years from now.
Since you support Biden in some sort of “keep ‘em there until it gets better” plan, can you say what evidence you have that that will work?
And I think Mui is right. Scarecrow HAS written some brilliant stuff on here. His take on the debate and it’s signifigance is a LOT different than mine, but that’s part of OUR caucus.
As a “vet” of a LOT of contentious posting about all the GOP fuckery, I think the level of fur that’s flying here, about Clinton and the debates, is just about right.
We’re democrats. And progressive democrats.
We SHOULD mix it up some. :O)
No one is sacred, but if we stick fairly close to the issues, we’ll be OK.
(Maybe some pissed, but still, OK. :o) )
CinnamonApe@127; all you posted was a list of corporations. :o)
I didn’t see anything in there about John Edwards, or what his relationship to them was.
If I missed the link or the page, can you point it out for me?
And speaking of pointing things out, when John Edwards shows up at a bash celebrating FoxNews’ birthday, or when he lets Rupert Murdoch hold a fundraiser for him, I’d sure like to know about that. :o)
Sorry Scarecrow while I agree that CNN did a worse job than MSNBC (far worse) I totally disagree that CNN was against Hilliary. For me it was the total opposite. They lobbed softballs to Hilliary all night and never followed up with her. Wolf Blitzer actually allowed the audience to shout down two of her competitors. Come on, that’s the kind of stuff that happens at Bush events. I thought the Democrats believed in the right to disent. The other two canidates had every right to challenge Senator Clinton and they were not allowed to do so.
There was one point at the beginning of the evening that foretold what the evening would be like. Senator Clinton accused Senator Edwards of mudslinging. Wolf Blitzer never followed up with her to ask for specifics. He also NEVER allowed Edwards to respond to a blatant attack. That set up was no accident.
Later in the debate Biden had just finished answering a question and Wolf said he was going to go to Hilliary for a response. Biden chimed in…I didn’t attack her (which obviously meant why are you giving her a resoponse)…to which Wolf said that she had voted for what Biden was talking about and deserved to have a response.
Clinton levels an attack at Edwards which the media has credited her with doing but Edwards was not allowed to respond. Biden doesn’t attack Hilliary but she IS allowed to respond. How do you square that with the idea that CNN was against Hilliary?
One last comment…the after debate “analysis” had a stacked deck. There were former Clinton people giving the analysis. How in the world is that anti-Hilliary.
Patty Morlan@312;
Ouch; that’s gonna leave a bruise. :o)
lambert strether @ 283
Thanks for the link. I hope someone reputable will thoroughly investigate this charge. Because if this is true I don’t see how any progressive could support her campaign. I know that Hilliary supporters don’t like to hear about comparisons with Bush, but sorry folks, that is exactly the correct comparison if what this person is saying in the KOS diary is correct. I hope the progressive Hilliary supporters will be the ones that are front and center in calling for an investigation into this charge. If it’s not true then it will clear the air and if it is true it really needs to be addressed by all of us.
Lambert!: goood link. As much for Las Vegas Pol Girl’s other post, as for the first one.