The other day a friend (hi Jane) pointed me towards two good Daily Kos diaries on immigration. There’s a lot to like in both of them, but I want to pick out a couple of strands for discussion.
In the first Duke points out, correctly, that the US has had other high immigration periods, and indeed as you can see in the chart to the left, this isn’t even the highest. He then goes on to say:
Historically there have always been a small minority of protectionists who’ve opposed immigration for xenophobic or racist reasons, but generally we as a people have accepted new immigrants with open arms and absorbed them into society. Yet, today we find this harder and harder to do. Many believe the new immigrants are putting undo pressures on our economy, creating stresses on a tight job market, and stretching already taxed social services and education systems.
Why today do we find it so hard to absorb these new immigrants? Why at a time in our history, when we have never been richer as a nation and more educated as a population, do we find these new immigrants putting such great stresses on our society? Perhaps we need to look at some of the changes that have taken place over the last twenty-five or so years to find the answer.
This sounds really good, but the problem with it is that in fact, in the past, there was a huge amount of discrimination against immigrants. The period in which immigrants were well accepted stopped when the majority of immigrants stopped coming from traditional sources (protestant Anglo-Saxons, Scots and Scots-Irish) and switched to Catholic groups like the non-Scots Irish, Italians, and so on. The 1850’s, for exmple, saw the rise of the Nativist/Know-Nothing movement, which was vehemently anti-Irish immigration. In the 1880’s the phrase “new immigrants” came into use to describe a new influx of immigrants from eastern and southern Europe, Russia and Asia – immigrants who were mostly Catholic or Jewish. For decades there was a huge amount of anti-immigrant sentiment. In 1924 the US set quotas, then in 1927 it refined those quotas to specific numbers of immigrants from various countries. (It’s also worth noting that Prohibition was an anti-immigrant measure in which the disapproving Protestant countryside tried to force its mores on the teeming Catholic immigrant masses in the cities.
And, of course, in the late 30’s, Jews trying to flee from Germany were turned back.
So anti-immigrant fervor isn’t unknown, in fact it’s been quite common in US history and has resulted in political movements and in practical legislation intended to slow down immigration. (Though the main cause of the collapse in the 30’s was the Great Depression, which hit the US very hard.)
But when people talk about “immigration” what they really mean is “illegal immigration,” so let’s talk about that for a second.
The first thing to realize is that it appears that the majority of illegal immigration is from Mexico, and that when you add in Latin America you’re up to about 80%. So when we’re talking about illegal immigration, we’re talking about illegal immigration from Mexico and Latin America.
The biggest single reason is that Mexican agriculture was smashed by NAFTA (Duke mentions this but throws it in with such a large laundry list that it gets buried), so you have a lot of Mexicans who need jobs. That’s not all that’s going on, but it’s probably the largest part of it.
Why? Because US agriculture is massively subsidized (when you make something too cheap, you get… overproduction) at levels the 3rd world can’t compete with and we’ve forced them to remove their tariff barriers and encouraged them to concentrate on cash crops that can’t easily be grown in the US/Europe/Canada.
What’s remarkable about immigration isn’t that there’s so much of it, but that there’s so little of it. Italy in the 19th century, for example, suffered an absolute population drain because there was so much emigration to the new world, and that is with a much smaller wage differential. We aren’t seeing as much immigration yet as we should.
US trade policy, for some time, has simultaneously destroyed 3rd world agriculture, leading to huge population dislocation and devastated the industrial working class in the US. Unfortunately almost no one works in American agriculture, while there used to be huge numbers of manufacturing export workers. Many third world (read, Latin American and Mexican) farmers who lost their livelihood then headed north to the US.
The US has an immigration problem, in short, because it’s rich and other countries are poor. More than this it has an immigration problem because large numbers of people, primarily subsistence farmers, have lost their livelihood. If they were all poor but still had their farms and livelihood, they wouldn’t need to head north. This is a direct result of US, and indeed western trade and development policies as carried out by the IMF, the World Bank and various other alphabet soup agencies.
I did say there were two diaries and I’d like to touch on the second one, by Stephen. It’s a good diary and I agree with most of it (his notes on insourcing, for example) but I’ll point out a couple of things, starting with this:
The government has essentially turned its back on its own existing laws concerning employment of undocumented workers.
The first time in American history there were any penalties for hiring undocumented workers was when the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act was passed. Before then, nada. Sure, the workers could be nabbed, but the employers weren’t fined. (One might note that this was probably based on “how should they know” in the pre “show your identity papers citizen” era.)
The other thing I’d like to comment on is Stephen’s suggestion of:
Amnesty for all workers who are here as of the date a new immigration law is signed. Amnesty, followed by a requirement to demonstrate annually that the worker has been gainfully employed for 80% (or so) of the previous year, has paid all required taxes, and has committed no crimes beyond traffic violations. Pretty much the same thing a citizen is required to do.
An employment restriction is harsh. What if you’re a housewife? A kid? A student? What I would do is make it a “no welfare/no assistance rule”. Also if you have work requirements, even at 80% you risk making workers the slaves of their employers. They can’t leave because they’ll be deported. It turns back into a guest worker program, where the workers are at the mercy of their employers. Protest bad treatment, get fired, and pretty soon you’re deported.
Finally, on a personal note, when I was reading up on guest worker programs around the time of the failed immigration bill one of the things I noticed is that a big industry which uses guest workers is tree planting.
Well, I’m Canadian and I know a ton of 20-somethings (and a few 30-somethings) almost all white, mostly middle class, who spend a lot of time planting trees. Why? Because while it’s lousy work and hard as all get out, you can make some pretty good money at it, it’s outdoors and they’ll take pretty much anyone (it’s piecework, so there’s no real risk.) I don’t believe American 20-somethings are fundamentally lazier than Canadians. The work can and will be done by Americans if the wage is high enough. And when I say “pretty good money” realize I’m not talking about good money as you or I would probably define it, I just mean “better than McDonalds”.
Insourcing, the practice of bringing cheap workers into the country to do a job that can’t be outsourced, is a choice. Societies don’t have to do it. Instead, they can pay a couple bucks more an hour and employ their own citizens.
Of all the problems the US has, immigration including illegal immigration is, and I think both Stephen and Duke would agree, one of the less important ones. But if the US wants to reduce it, step one is to fix its own trade, agricultural and development policies. Might want to start by rewriting NAFTA.
Related posts:
- Harsh Immigration Provision in Senate Health Care Bill Denounced by Catholic Bishops
- GRITtv Live: Is Immigration Reform Dead?
- Minuteman Killer Co-Hosted Anti-Immigration Event in 2007 Featuring Tom Tancredo, Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson
- When Wilson Defines Debate, Democrats Squander Chance to Set Record Straight
- Late Late Night FDL: Finn and Horan





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Hey, do I get the zed?
hiya mr ian welsh
Hi, Ian!
Still reading Christy downstairs, but I’ll be back soon.
Congrats, Toby. You get the zed, and the responsibility of informing folks downstairs on the previous thread.
FunnyDiva
Hey, Snarkita
how’s bayou?
please don’t be offended, but …..
why do bloggers put the topic sentence almost near the end a lot of the time?
Funnydiva2002 @ 4
I am doing good. How’saboutYou?
Hi pups. I’ve got something going on so I probably won’t be in comments much. My apologies in advance. I’ll try and answer what I can and/or come back later.
What and deal with the real problems in the country, rather than attack strawmen and look at how we all got to this country. A nation of immigrants going back 10,000 to 30,000 years.
SnarKassandra @ 5
I honestly don’t know, cassie.
Maybe they don’t have anyone to give them a final edit before posting? Maybe it reflects how they construct their arguement? Maybe they see other bloggers do it and get the idea that’s how to write?
In fairness, it’s not just bloggers. I have to do some heavy rearranging sometimes when I’m editing scientific manuscripts.
Guess my personal rule is to be clear and up-front with the most important assertions and then use a variety of structures that make sense. Usually less is more, but a little persiflage never killed anyone either.
FunnyDiva
Ian Welsh @ 7
Heh, A drive-by posting! Mahalo, Ian!
Funnydiva2002 @ 9
Maybe there is a “you need to provide a heck of a lot of background info before you make your point” rule for bloggers.
And in fairness to Ian, that snippet makes sense to me in context.
Oh, and I’m fine, thanks. Keep your fingers crossed for me, I had a job interview yesterday.
FunnyDiva
Tree planting…
I tried it once, in my mid twenties.
I lasted half a day.
Packing bundles of little trees and a shovel up the side of mountains that would make a goat think twice.
No thanks.
I do have tremendous respect for those that do that job day in, day out, in freezing ass weather.
Some tough MF’rs.
Hi, argos,
Nice to see ya. How are you?
FunnyD
fine today, sorry its been awhile wanted to make sure that I could at lest part of a thought to reach my hands and then the keyboard. How are all you folks.
Funnydiva2002 @ 14
Bustednuckles @ 13
horticulture/agriculture is hard work, hard labor.
I wonder if also the reason there seems to be more resistance to immigration stems from the speed and availability of information transfer that can sway many more opinions faster. Back in the day they didn’t have the net or TV, not even radio.
Harder to reach huge audiences back then with a concerted effort at swaying opinion.
Not that there was ever a lack of bigotry and hate.
Twenty five years ago I planted about half a million trees and was real happy to get 3 cents each.
Nice post.
So much to be said about the immigration issue. Before I start, let me compliment you on the NAFTA-Mexican farming link. Seldom do I see that explicated.
Let me start with the politics. As you correctly point out, immigration has always been divisive. Although the U.S. prides itself on being a country of immigrants, the current ones are always a threat of one sort or another. So whatever made the Rs think this was a winning issue.
Couple that with the fact that when the Rs stared on it, most of the undocumenteds came in during the Clinton Administration. But they weren’t a problem then (CA insanities on the subject proving the point). Why not? Because no one talked about them. They only became a problem when the Rs raised it to the conscious level. What could they have been thinking?
SnarKassandra @ 5
Some essays don’t have a single thesis. This, unfortuantely, is one of them. It’s a review article more than an argument one. And sometimes the standard essay organization they teach in school isn’t the best.
Of course, sometimes it is. And sometimes bloggers just write like crap. This may be one of them. I report, you decide. ;)
Cuz we’re so reality based?
whereas…
whereas…
whereas…
whereas…
conclusion
That sort of thing?
Bit fast and loose with why and wherefor of the displacement matey, other that, not bad.
Funnydiva2002 @ 12
Fingers and toes both, as Suzanne says. How did you feel it went?
Who is scarier…W and Dick and the cabal…. or the guy that builds rock walls with skill…or the guy who is out of contruction work, because others have come into the country and will do it cheaper. It is a horrible question, but I know what I think.
Ian Welsh @ 20
No no!
It is not crap.
It’s just that when I don’t know about something and i am reading something new, I read it the way they tell us in school. But this is not a TAKS test or a chapter in the history book so the topic sentence is not where I was looking for it.
Toby Wollin @ 11
If so, then it needs to be re-examined. There’s no reason not to make your most important assertion and then back it up in the rest of the essay. Much easier to grab and keep a reader that way, anyhow. There’s only so much background I’m willing to read without some indication of the author’s point.
FunnyD
Keith up on MSNBC – ;~)
Loo Hoo. @ 23
I can never tell. I felt like I connected with folks, and they seemed happy when I told them I’d like to work with them. We’ll see, I guess!
FunnyD
One of my iron laws is never bet against demographics. As long as there are jobs on this side of the border that undocumented workers can fill and as long as there are not jobs on their side of the border, they will come.
Additionally, Hispanic culture does not stop on either side of the border. This makes the border more a state of mind or an illusion to many.
Probably a relatively fair point. Should have put something to grab at the beginning. Ah well.
newspaperbrat @ 27
And what is the Olber-person saying tonight?
Ian Welsh @ 30
You know I am 16, right?
Where I live, Italians who immigrated here at the turn of the last century brought mushroom farming to the area. As the businesses grew they started hiring local women, farmer’s wives to pick and sort the ’shrooms. Eventually the women moved on to better paying jobs in local knitting mills. Then Puerto Ricans started doing the labor, as they became established, they too moved up to better paying jobs. So then came the Mexicans.
and so it goes
I’d rather live in peace with illegal immigrants that in perpetual wartime with our “leaders”.
Ian Welsh @ 30
Ian- don’t worry. Feel complimented by the fact that you have really really attentive readers at FDL.
SnarKassandra @ 25
Ha! But you kept reading and identified one, yes? That’s the main thing.
Lots of ways to write well. Keep reading and blogging, hon. You’re already good…a few more years and you’ll be a force to be reckoned with.
FunnyD
On KO they are badmouthing teenagers by comparing us to George!
Bush: Dems are like teenagers with their first credit card.
Spit!
SnarKassandra @ 32
Yup. Nothing to do with whether your point is right or not, though. A hook at the beginning is important, it doesn’t have to be the topic sentence per se, mind you.
excellent.
this is the one of the big reasons i was pissed off at the dems for their proposed immigration legislation earlier this year. i didn’t see how they could be serious about addressing the “illegal” immigration without addressing our fucked up trade and foreign policies which were increasing migration pressures and at the same time putting wage and employment stress on american workers. it was a recipe for the problems were having now – how could they not see where the train wreck was coming from?
SnarKassandra @ 37
Bingo! Bwahahahahaha!!!
newspaperbrat @ 27
I “heart” Keith. I think he’s hawt. Oh…wait…no, I really like him for his brains, that’s it.
I could do with less of the stupid celebrity news, though. Or with having less of it as the main highlight on the show’s website.
FunnyD
Ian Welsh @ 39
Well, I thought you got the hook in the title for the post, and very nicely.
SnarKassandra @ 37
What? Teenagers are all dry drunks and spoiled bullies of mediocre intelligence?
Spankin’ Tancredo…
The chart is a clear topic marker as well.
Phoney mall threats vs Americans dying due to lack of insurance.
Ian Welsh @ 30
{{{IAN}}} Aw, stop looking for criticism when none was intended! It’s a fine post. Another factor is knowing your audience, which you do. So you know you can count on Firepups making the effort to read the whole essay. And there’s nothing wrong with “I read these two things and will now compare/contrast and critique them for you.” That’s a worthwhile topic in and of itself.
FunnyD
Ian, it’s a great post!
Judith Regan says she can prove her claims.
The whole immigration issues reminds me of mid-19th century California they tried to keep people out but could not, then assimilation which worked for a time. The central government was the real problem too little attention was payed to California in the beginning, then those who did not have any real understanding of the situation made bad laws and policies. In the end incompetent leadership lead to a complete change in the political and cultural landscape, its one of many lessons that point to ways we could look at this aspect of the larger problems of this country and the world and not to repeat the mistakes other have made and come up with a new less harsh solution. Or we could go with the good old no Chinese or Irish need apply approach.
Kind of makes question planting minor league if it’s true.
OT – Keith & Arriana talking about Judith Regan admission (confession) that a New Corp official wanted Regan to lie about her affair with Bernie Kerik and is suing Fox for millions. WTF?
SnarKassandra @ 32
Cassie-lighten up. Blog writing style is idiosyncratic, not what I learned in 8th grade English 50 years ago. Blog writing is much faster & often comes out not as well stated as it could be. Helpful hints are fine, but tarring the genre on the writing score is misplaced.
Loo Hoo. @ 50
I read this as meaning that she has recorded telephone calls or saved emails. Hope I’m right.
Huffington is hitting a homerun!!! Judith Reagan’s lawsuit…not about the affair with Kerik while Kerik’s wife was pregnant, but about mafia, and Ghouliani wanting him to head Homeland(choke on the word) Security…that is leading to some kind of a network that leads right to Ghouliani…
KO: This could be the sound of the dam breaking…
newspaperbrat @ 53
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..ref=slogin
I was not tarring the genre. I was just wondering why it was different.
SnarKassandra @ 58
Creative license.
Let’s see your license and registration and insurance.
SanderO @ 60
Hear it iz ossifer.
LS @ 59
I had a creative license but I think it’s expired.
newspaperbrat @ 53
Specifically to protect Ghouliani, too!
I hope they post it at the KO web site.
Loo Hoo. @ 63
Cassie, think about it this way if you want to; a painter learns to use a medium like oil painting and practices on “models”…then…when the painter realizes that they own the canvas, they can paint however they wish. Like Picasso, he started out with regular portraits, but ended up with everything you expected from what you were taught to see…only it was all rearranged…it was still a portrait.
Man, Judith Reagan gets all the good tail.
smapdi @ 66
Ewwwwww.
Hugh @ 62
Mine was withheld at birth.
Arms, check.
Legs, check.
Hotdog fingers, check.
Creative license – on back-order…
Loo Hoo. @ 63
Just don’t anyone put up a shot of Bernie and The Ghoul. You know the one I’m avoiding in my mind right now.
What is up with these guys?
Their twistedness is something I’ve never seen, and I thought I’d seen alot.
Loo Hoo!
SnarKassandra @ 58
Fair enuf. Kinda like spelling it enuf, rather than enough. It’s not as though I don’t know, it’s that it’s a less formal venue.
As for me, I try to keep my their, there and they’re-s straight, as well as my its and it’s. Matter of petty personal pride. Doesn’t matter much for communication, though.
smapdi @ 66
heh, heh.
smapdi @ 66
And she could share her windfall if she felt like it. This is not what Ghouliani had in mind this close to the primaries. tee hee…
SnarKassandra @ 5
You’ll learn to do that when you take Rhetoric, which is basically “winning arguments”. Start your piece taking the opponent’s position, undermine it, then demolish it, then end with your position.
Ian’s not doing exactly that, he’s “making sense” out of some conflicted arguments. This (on health care) is probably a better example of rhetorical argument.
OT, but I know you guys are watching Keith, so isn’t it amazing that they’re reopening the investigation of warrantless wiretapping. And, according to TPM, they’re throwing in an investigation of the US Attorney Purge! Wow, that was fast! What’s y’alls take on this?
I’ll bet Bernie’s gonna bit Rudy in the buttski. Heh.
smapdi @ 66
Or [bald] head as the case may be.
Hugh @ 62
LOL!
even if that were true (Ha!) it has inspired!
Ed*ard Teller is rolling out his scroll of Hugh’s List tomorrow, he promises pics.
LS @ 65
LS- great comment. Sorta stumped for further words, but I got it. Learn the nuts and bolts first, and then use then as your own tools.
Ann in AZ @ 74
Time will tell. So far so good.
GordonM @ 73
Thanks for this explanation. Saves me the $x hundred it would cost me to take an extension course in debating or rhetoric.
Hugh,
Your creative licence hasn’t expired – it has merely been modified.
Behold, pups – Hugh’s Scroll…
HmmAnn in AZ @ 74
2 days of Mukasey seems to be doing wonders.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
OMFG….that is outstanding!!! Way to go ET!!!
Ann in AZ @ 74
‘Xactly my Q. My first cynical thought is that the “investigation” will either be a whitewash or a delaying tactic.
Hey, Demi! Want to go on Saturday:
Not to toot my own horn but, I mentioned this twice (the E-Board meetings) last week (technically the censure only once) here at FDL.
Anywhoo, if you’re in SoCal or plan to be in SoCal, and a California Democrat, and want to do something about how things are going with your party, especially how you’re not being represented by those who should be representing you (DiFi …etc.) – go to the E-Board Meetings – especially if you’re a delegate – and tell them how you feel. Most meetings are open to all
California Democratic Party Executive Board Meeting
When: This coming weekend November 16-18, 2007
Where: NOTE HOTEL CHANGE: Sheraton Park Hotel at the Anaheim Resort
http://www.cadem.org/site/c.jr…..Agenda.htm
That was from in John in Sacramento earlier today. Peanutbutter may want to go, we just haven’t figured out what it costs yet.
Ian, thanks for this thoughtful essay.
Not sure the English were exactly thrilled at the arrival of so many Scots, at least in Virginia and North Carolina. The latter saw their churches forbidden and so they moved up into the mountains to live in peace.
My point is there is *always* a group sorry to see the next one coming along.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
Fabulous!
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
EGGsellent
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
that was quick!
nicely done ET, you the man this week
Ann in AZ @ 74
Most excellent, but still doesn’t make waterboarding okay. Schumer made a deal???
Ian-
We are hopelessly OT, which is a shame, as your post was very very good. Plz accept me @ 19 as a futile attempt to continue the discussion.
smapdi @ 82
Almost too good to be true!! I almost can’t take the shock of all that potential legitimacy anymore! Literally, I don’t know what to make of it.
egregious @ 86
Exactly…”terra” ists.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
Thank you ET! Bravo Hugh!
egregious @ 86
Always.
eCAHNomics @ 84
But Keith says he (Mukasey) got them their security clearances! And it’s only been two days!
Loo Hoo. @ 85
I saw you said that earlier. Let me know what you find out. I’m all for sneaking in the kitchen entrance if it’s too $$$.
Kidding.
Not that much, tho.
Have to go for a bit the nova ID v. Science thing is on and my blood pressure is building and its hard to have S.J Gould in one hand and my shoe in the other, wish I could some of these clowns to read while enhancing their understanding the difference between Science and faith.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
Standing ovation for Hugh and ET
newspaperbrat @ 94
Now Hugh has to nail it to the front door of the Capitol.
ET…you should SPOTLIGHT the post on your blog. Anyway, someone who knows how, should. Dayem, that’s good.
Ann in AZ @ 96
I can’t help it. There has to be a W agenda in there somewhere.
Et did a nice job on the scroll rollers too!
Congrats Hugh and ET!
eCAHNomics @ 102
Perhaps he made a boo boo.
newspaperbrat @ 94
Sixty feet long in 10 point Helvetica. That’s pretty small type for (ahem) those of us with “mature eyes”.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
brilliant! i love it!
egregious @ 86
These days, those of us of Scottish ancestry are usually taken for WASPs. It is amusing to inform people that our forefathers came to this country because (1) the Brits tossed them out of the highlands so the Brits could raise their sheep and (2) wouldn’t employ them in the lowland factories because highlanders were obviously sub-human.
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
Whoo Hoo, ET! Save that puppy for the Smithsonian. Seriously. This era must never be repeated.
Loo Hoo. @ 108
I’d like to see it unscrolled on Colbert
Ed*ard Teller @ 81
That was a lot of work, ET! It should now be unfurled in the Rotunda of the Capitol! ;-)
Thanks, pups! If Hugh leaves a comment on my blog about this, it will make the whole thing even more worthwhile…
Now I get to drive 50 miles home in the beginnings of our next snowstorm. Se ya at latenight.
Elliott @ 109
I have other plans, tee-hee…
Ed*ard Teller @ 112
Ohh!?
eCAHNomics @ 102
My guess is that the deal was: Mukassey won’t go after W for torture, but other stuff is open season. W’s main worry is ending up behind bars (which is where the torture stuff goes). The other stuff might put him out of office early, but to stay out of jail, that’s a risk he has to take.
Sorry for barging in, Ian.
Sort of OT, but I felt I had to bring this to everyone’s attention: Betty Holtzman is back and she’s saying some important things about the effect of the Mukasy hearings.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..72242.html
ET leaves us with that tease???
CTuttle @ 110
could we bring it to all the capitol buildings in all of the states?
GordonM @ 107
Tossed us out? We were burned out in The Clearances.
People getting shoved around so others can make money is unfortunately a very old story. Maybe we can find a better way somehow.
LS @ 104
I don’t know, but if this keeps up, and actually seems legit, I would probably have to forgive anyone that voted to let him be the AG.
LS @ 93
Absolutely! Human nature, being what it is, has always wanted to pull the gates up behind it and keep out the “different”.
I am 98% Irish descent and I have a sign from 1918 “Help Wanted. No Irish need Apply”. Each “new” group into the US has been held down as much as possible. If we could only get over our fear of each other the world would be a much better and more cooperative place.
CTuttle @ 110
I’d like to hear it read from the Capitol steps. Repeatedly. Until people get the picture.
Toby Wollin @ 116
Heh…ouch.
Ann in AZ @ 120
I agree, and we shall see…every day is a new day with all kinds of surprises. I’m trying to keep an open mind on this.
egregious @ 122
Hey, maybe ET could turn it in to an opera for The Capitol Steps and tun it into catchy performance art.
FunnyD
Ann in AZ @ 120
My problem with Mukasey is not just torture, it’s that he upholds the unitary executive theory.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/20…..hentoff-2/
Keith is the third runner up for Worst Person in the World! Seems he quoted some statistics wrong yesterday. Instead of one out of 4 veterans is homeless, it’s one out of every four homeless persons is a veteran.
Ed*ard Teller @ 112
cruel!
egregious @ 119
Better? Than painting my face blue and wearing a kilt? Huh?
Toby Wollin @ 116
That’s Elizabeth Holtzperson, according to wags of the era.
If it were only so. I have that exact Q in my mind. Will these criminals be subject to prosecution after they leave office?
I say this in the context of Pelosi taking impeachment off the table, and in the context of the Nixon pardon being one of the building blocks that led to W. You MUST take important things to their appropriate conclusions. Short-circuiting them sets up future problems.
hugh – when did you start keeping your list?
Ann in AZ @ 127
Aha! I heard him say the former, and figured he’d meant the latter.
Good on him for sitting in his own pillory for it. Sets a good example!
FunnyD
GordonM @ 129
Dammit, I love that movie.
eCAHNomics @ 130
yes. there must, at least, be a truth and reconciliation process.
Toby Wollin @ 116
I hear tinkling bells.
As Attorney General, Mr. Mukasey can try to plug these holes. He may shield President Bush and others from criminal liability; he may resist appointing an independent prosecutor to investigate White House actions. But he cannot, as the 2002 Gonzales memo recognized, tie the hands of future prosecutors. In lethal cases our anti-torture laws have no statute of limitations. Sooner or later, those who violated US law will be held accountable to them, if not by Mukasey, then by some future AG.
Selise-
Since we’re so far OT, could we resume this morning’s macroeconomics screed?
eCAHNomics @ 130
Nothing done in this country can shield them in other countries (except, I guess, Paraguay).
Abrams…leading with the Judith Reagan story….Bam!!!
GordonM @ 137
Yeah, but W & Vice don’t travel.
GordonM @ 137
I wonder if they have solar power down there..
eCAHNomics @ 139
Don’t and soon to be “can’t”, because they will be “wanted” everywhere on this planet.
LS @ 141
Well, they’re not wanted here.
eCAHNomics @ 139
He’d have to find a way of pardoning himself (and Darth) for hundreds if not thousands of crimes one by one. If he can’t do that, he has to travel (at least to Paraguay).
Ah yes, Regan has audio tapes. As I suspected from the NYT story.
I suggest the following use to which Ed*ard Teller’s Scroll of Hugh’s List could constructively be put:
Give it to Sen. Chris Dodd to read aloud on the Senate floor when he filibusters the FISA bill that grants immunity to the telecom companies for aiding and abetting the Bush Administration’s illegal spying on Americans.
Reagan’s got “tapes”….sounds like…. from Abrams…Heh.
Perhaps we’re all being too impatient. Impeachment may be off the table because there are far more serious consequences for these war criminals.
I called Feinstein’s office today to see when she would decide if telecoms should be off the hook. The staffer said that he believed she would vote for immunity. I said that her votes have been most Liebermanlike lately, and he just said yes, in a duh like voice.
Spose it’s possible that the Jews in the Senate (not lieberman) have really taken these war crimes seriously thinking back on Hitler? Maybe there really is a plan.
shoot me.
Ann in AZ @ 74
are they really re-opening it? OR is this just an excuse to pretend to look into it, verify that all the evidence is indeed buried, and assert that per-classified facts we can’t see, there was no problem?
New Thread by Eli.
neurophius @ 145
eXcellent!
eCAHNomics @ 130
Agreed. But perhaps we will have an opportunity to clean up this mess once and for all.
Eli upstairs.
SnarKassandra @ 5
Because the text structure they teach in school is not the only way to organize an argument. Sometimes it is useful to tell a story or make a case and then draw you conclusions.
demi @ 97
Don’t know everything, not a delegate ;-)
The caucus meetings, standing committees, trainings and workshops all should be free and open to registered Democrats. I think everything is open to registered Democrats except probably the General Session on Sunday, the Saturday luncheon and maybe the E-Board Social with John Dean on Friday night.
Of course if you have to get a Motel, you’d have to pay for that … and your food
To find out for sure I’d give a call to your county Democratic party office or Central Committee member
Here’s a link to the agenda; the one above seems to be broken
Highly encourage pups to go over to ET’s site and comment on Hugh’s Scroll.
ET’s blog
THANK YOU JOHN!
eCAHNomics @ 136
yes, please!
although, i don’t call the opportunity to have a knowledgable tutor a “screed” *g*.
to start us off tonight, here’s where we began this morning:
eCAHNomics @ 10
selise @ 35
eCAHNomics @ 40
Since I’m still around, I’ll just note that I’m reasonably sure that the 60’s wasn’t the only post war period in which wages rose robustly. The entire post war period (with the exeption of recessions) was pretty darn good overall.
Chart in this post:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..long-suck/
Two words suddenly popped into my mind while considering illegal immigration (Fair disclosure: am a Dutch immigrant myself) “Economic Cleansing”. There is no doubt in my mind that Mexico, one of the richest (per capita) countries in the world, is practicing it. Realizing that my dim bulb was not the first to come up with this term I googled on it. Yep, there is another country practicing Economic Cleansing. This one, the one I live in. Illegal mexicans,IMHO, are part of the social stratification process.
oh, excellent – ian’s here too!
Ian,
Is it correct that there were wage increases in the 50’s with little inflation, but that the wage increases in the 60’s were partially taken back by inflation?
Of course from the perspective of the blowout inflation of the 70’s the previous decade looked pretty tame.
In the 60’s we started paying for having both a war and expanded social programs, then the bill came due in the 70’s.
Are we facing an equivalent period in a few years, where the costs of the war and the deficit collide?
Ian Welsh @ 158
ian – do you have a chart (or know where i can go to get the data) of unemployment rates to lay over your favorite chart of all time on hourly wages?
uh-oh. i hope we didn’t lose eCAHNomics.
egregious @ 161
I’m only semi-here (in a conference call) but the chart I linked is real wages. Inflation did get worse every decade iirc.
selise @ 162
I don’t have a chart, no, but http://www.bls.gov is where you need to go. Look for the population survey and from there look for “make own charts” (or something like that.)
Mae M. Nagi’s Impossible Subjects: Illegal Aliens and the Making of Modern America gives a fairly comprehensive history of American immigration policy. Essentially it explores how American immigration policy was and is largely shaped by racism, and economic anxiety.
One major factor in the business demand for undocumented laborers is that labor “control” is much easier when the workers aren’t supposed to be here and are continually afraid of being fired and left isolated in a strange country with no resources.
Many owners and managers who employ recent immigrant labor, whether the workers are documented or undocumented, do not want to hire white or African-American workers because US citizens of any color tend to insist that bosses treat them with respect for their dignity.
LS @ 38
I’ve been a Democrat a long long time.
I’ve NEVER had a credit card!
[ Note: I do use a Debit card. ]
People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. So, maybe Dubya should look at his credit card statement. It says he’s 9 Trillion dollars in debt.
The only debt problems I have ever had have been in recent years because of outrageous health care costs.
My view of immigration on our southern border is that first we should secure the border tightly against criminals, drug runners, terrorists etc. But, we should open the regulated entry-ways to almost anyone who speaks English and will properly identify themselves.
That way we can give ‘em an ID card they can use for business purposes or for dealing with governmental agencies. We should let them choose whether to come here as a student, tourist, visitor, permanent resident or whatever.
Letting any of them work towards becoming a citizen is an entirely separate issue and is probably already well established.
Right now our economy looks as shaky as an AIDS patient with pneumonia and a Republican congressman shaking his hand. But, down the road we are likely to need more new citizens to grow the economy. This isn’t unusual for America.