This is definitely a fight worth fighting:
It’s one of those below the radar things, but there’s a fight brewing between mortgage brokers and the rest of us over legislation. There’s legislation to outlaw something called “yield spread premiums” in which brokers are given a cut if they give borrowers crappier loans than the ones they qualify for. The thing is that most people don’t understand that their mortgage broker isn’t their pal who simply runs their credit score and gives them the best mortgage they qualify for, but is in fact someone who benefits from screwing them as much as possible. People just don’t think of their mortgage broker in the way they think about used car salesmen even though they obviously should.
It’s fucking ridiculous that Congress doesn’t stand up to the mortgage industry after they have ripped off millions of borrowers and are in the midst of destroying communities all over the country. Write your rep.
This is just a positive move all around. It’s good for Democrats to do something to clean up the mortgage system as the fallout sweeps through the nation on the eve of an election year, and it also happens to be the right thing to do — unless you’re a corporate whore who thinks the future of the party is in being a Republican hack with a “D” next to your name.
No names, please.
(photo by sfadden)
Related posts:
- Does MERS Registration and Mortgage Fractionalization Extinguish Mortgage Rights?
- Cleaning House at Bank of America
- Don’t Mess With John Galt’s Right to Get a Sub-Prime Loan
- NY Bankruptcy Court Wipes out MERS-Registered Mortgage; New Trend in Foreclosures?
- Mortgage Foreclosure: Here Come the “Deadbeats”
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first?
yup.
third?
got that right.
well, while we’re waiting for the others to arrive, here’s an amusing little diity I penned about the vice president:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..tbook.html
(found in a Pakistani textbook)
Well, that just took the fun out of it.
Anyway, I’m glad to see the Dems take do something right after the caving on the Bankruptcy issue.
The diggit link is new. Could it be useful. Any hints? Thanks.
Today, the financial shows were touting how great it is that the dollar has fallen, and they are saying that it is opening up a great opportunity to solve the mortgage mess….foreign investors buying up the foreclosed properties and properties in danger of being foreclosed….
Hey scarlet, did you let the downstairs folks know you’d gotten the zed, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th places on a new thread?
no – is there an award?
scarlet p. @ 10
Not really, just the courtesy of letting folks know that there is a new thread should they like to join us.
Yes mortgage. Gulp. so many people are losing houses in the town where I live.
Congress really needs to deal with the mortgage brokers & credit card lenders – both have been screwing us for quite some time.
And as per usual, we the people are the underdogs in this fight ’cause the greedy and unscrupulous mortgage broker weasels with the money already own our politicians.
“Money talks, and the peasants walk.”
Heh.
Wolf istakingasking Tancredo to task, maybe, for his terra ad…..Tancredo is sort of yelling at Wolf…who is citing his political desperation….
Atrios:
Sounds like a crucial idea.
Ok. No names.
From MSNBC – BofA takes $3 billion write-down on bad debt
In my town, families are losing their homes and their shirts thanks to these subprime loans. Working class folks who’ve made tremendous sacrifices to get into a home of their own now forced to sell at $100,000 less than they paid for the place…or be foreclosed upon. It’s a nightmare for them.
LS @ 15
These wingnuts are just destroying themselves. Tom Delay greeted with derisive laughter.
mui @ 20
Great link.
beerfart liberal @ 17
Known aims: Lieberman, Feinstein…
Laura Doty @ 19
I wonder if a map and statistics have been drawn up on homeowner losses. Because its eerily the same in lots of towns.
mui @ 23
I’d like to see one. I’d also like to see tracking on who profits from these losses.
punaise @ 22
And would that be Ames, IA?
Laura Doty @ 34
The profits were front loaded. Now are only the losses.
Hi
Here a couple of place you go and see the damage.
http://loanworkout.org/
http://countrywide-foreclosures.blogspot.com/
This a very real and it’s happening to people that don’t deserve it or were just plain lied to when they got there loan.
jo6pac
I just wanna point out that the problem is more subtle than it may seem at first glance, which is why legislation is hard. My wife and I, for example, took a subprime loan when we bought our house in 2004. It was the right time to buy (we’d been saving for years), but our credit ratings were close to, but under, 700. Since California homes are so expensive, the combination of the amount we needed to borrower and the unglamorous credit scores meant we did not qualify for A paper, even though we had good, steady jobs. Subprime loan structures allowed us to buy the home, and then cycle into a more traditional mortgage two years later when the very act of paying our mortgage had increased our credit scores.
Bottom line: subprime lending is not bad by definition, when all parties involved are equally informed of the details and the risks. Unscrupulous Brokers, predatory banks and greedy capitalizers/ratings agencies are the boogeymen here. Closing off a legitimate source of credit (subprime mortgages) is the wrong answer. Punishing brokers who mislead customers, banks who charge usurious rates and fail to confirm incomes, and ratings agencies who give A grads to D securities — that’s what needs to be done.
Laura Doty @ 19
Too true, went through this up to being forced into triple mortgage payments to avoid foreclosure, and nightmare doesn’t even cover the feeling. And while some of this is not understanding the fine print a lot of it is outright fraud on the part of mortgage servicing company. Finally won a class action suit against ours but not a tenth of what they bilked from us and so many lost their homes.
eCAHNomics @ 26
There are buyers out there, mopping up in a desperate market.
Laura Doty @ 30
It’s how the rich get richer.
demi @ 31
Yup. And it’d be nice to follow that money.
David Nett @ 28
From my reading on the subject, many subprime loans were written in a way to either disallow changes into another, better loan at a later date, or to charge huge penalties for doing so. And these clauses were somehow hidden. (Not sure how that was done.) Simple regulation could solve those problems.
Yes, subprime mortgages have allowed many people to own their own homes who would otherwise have not been able. So the point is not to forbid them, but rather to make sure the market is open & honest, the traditional role of regulation.
People losing their homes is the huge personal tragedy cost of the debacle. However, the huge financial losses are in the markets for derivatives of the subprime mortgages.
Laura Doty @ 32
what’s that great big sucking sound?
the transference of wealth
Emailed my Republican rep for what it’s worth. He’s uses the “Christian” talk all the time. I asked him to imagine the millions of Americans sick with worry this holiday season as the loss of their home looms or has happened. And that I’m sure Jesus would want us to help the millions of families sure to be affected. Stop predatory lending.
Thanks David Nett for your insights.
Along with this, a problem we already know can get really, really bad, consider the scenario if bush had succeeded in gutting social security and leaving people to invest that money for retirement. Picture the money that would have been skimmed by “money managers” – trying to put the person into the fund that gave them the biggest kickbacks. That’s a whole ‘nuther kettle of fish we’d be frying here, folks! Another reason to keep social security secure.
LS @ 8
But are the foreigners actually buying these loans in large enough quanties to matter?
Or are they waiting for the price to drop further? Are they waiting until they get some real information on this problem so they can judge for themselves where the bottom is? I don’t trust Bush Administration numbers, Hedge fund that self report only when they do good, or banks until tax time.
We have no good information about this problem.
Laura Doty @ 30
Maybe. But I think many of the foreclosed houses are just sitting around with for sale signs. Prices probably haven’t dropped enuf for the vultures to sweep in yet.
A friend who is a very successful realtor was telling me over dinner last month how she’d saved a recent client over $1,000/monthh on a home loan.
Young couple, two kids; the mortgage broker they were working with had them a full point higher than their credit ratings called for — a Countrywide rep, BTW. So she hooked the young couple up with one of the mortgage brokers she works with, who found some grant money for part of the down payment, brought their rate down by a full point, and saved them a great deal of money and anxiety.
Several people that I know in real estate have been saying for a couple of years now: (1) there are too many realtors, (2) mortgage lenders were hiring anyone who could walk, talk, and show up on time. This mess didn’t come out of nowhere; I’ve heard realtors express worry and express shock at some of the loans they’ve seen the past few years. So to anyone who was paying attention, this subprime mess is not a surprise.
As another friend said to me (archly) “Standards?! There were NO standards. That’s why we’re all going to be f*cked.”
The Dems need to stand up for accountability, despite the fact that there are clearly very powerful interests who don’t want to deal with the consequences of their shoddy practices.
A lot of those sub-prime loans got sold to hedge funds. Why the funds don’t want disclosure: they’d be shown to be hanging on the edge of a very big cliff. And that scares the people who run them.
demi @ 31
“The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets.”
-John D. Rockefeller
mui @ 20
That’s a good link. And that picture of DeLay…. how does anybody get their eyes set in their head like that. I’m jest sayin’. And one is, like, twice the size of the other. Or is he just squintin’? Was funny when he used one of his Pavlov dog lines tested on right wing audiences –”socialized medicine” —booooooo — everybody in his British audience applauded. GREAT!@!!
I don’t think it’s the Rich folks, what with their personal financial planners and all, who are the ones suffering from this sub-mortgage debacle. The overworked lower-middle class were probably a larger target for this. I think, anyway.
Maybe a six month freeze on mortgage forclosures would work?
Homeowners get a chance to catch up on debt. Banks would not have to have that debt show up on their books for awhile. Plus foreclosures would not be depressing realestate prices.
beerfart liberal @ 42
I think this community deserves a little chuckle brought to them unwittingly by the hammer.
mui @ 23
There are. Go here. scroll down to the map, hit the ‘forelclosures’ options and look at the concentration of black dots. They’ve found a way to clean out the ‘riffraff’ on a mass basis with legal and financial trickery. The robber barons are back and in force.
P J Evans @ 40
WHAT?!? You mean the hedge funds managers aren’t really worth all those millions of dollars they got paid (and taxed like it was their own money they’d invested)?
Why I’m shocked, SHOCKED I say.
Not.
Are any of the Democratic Presidential Candidates pushing a real solution? Any chance of the Dems in Congress actualy standing up to the GOP and passing a bill that would do some good.
aliasofwestgate @ 46
good link, but state by state with statistics for each town would also be good. I don’t suppose the census would come up with that too soon?
One reason why there are so many real estate agents out there: when the economy is going bad, it looks like an easy way to keep the income up.
They see the ads (and the flyers on utility poles) for real estate sales training, and the six figure income that’s quoted (probably without any warnings about not being typical results), and voila, many agents, with fewer (and probably smaller) sales per agent.
Why do people feel compelled to own property?
The most sensible environmental solution is dense urban living and leaving the countryside natural and for agriculture.
I think rental housing is fine as long as the cost is reasonable and it is not a rip off. Co ops are fine and we need to remove the profit from the real estate and housing sector. It all goes back to people wanting to make oddles of money in real estate, construction and housing.
The housing bubble and the debt financing approach which as replaced the save first and buy later is now as american as apple pie. It was and remains a ponzi scheme.
Interest and fees are simply inflationary and produce no added value to the economy. All we have is a financial sector which produces no value driving the economy.
We’re headed for collapse. It will be coming faster and faster like any progressive collapse.
It will hurt.
So, not only do we need more and better democrats, we need more and smarter people.
My dear daddy used to tell me that if a deal seemed too good to be true, take it to the bank, it ain’t true.
The mortgage companies which snookered So Many People need to be held accountable.
I think there’s going to be a glut of sub-prime mortgage employees.
Things Come Undone @ 44
There is some tangible effort to get lenders to do workouts & renegotiations with borrowers, but as most of the loans were securitized, that possibility is not available.
Things Come Undone @ 44
Keep dreaming :)
Selling money for profit is pretty creepy isn’t it?
I wish there was one i could find. i don’t think they’ve gotten around to doing one on a nationwide basis–yet. But that as a microcosm alone is frightening. I’m actually glad i’m renting now, and never bothered to go for a home. I couldn’t afford it anyway, but there’s so many more working poor like me that did anyway.
A friend showed me that map about a week ago, painted quite a stark picture. As it is? I’m not sure american media paying THAT much detail to the foreclosures unless they have anything to do with the banks in question, not even bothering with those that lost their homes!
aliasofwestgate @ 46
Looks like this hits black homeowners in Cleveland pretty hard.
demi @ 52
WE are the better democrats.
SanderO @ 55
And the fact that most of it is funny money, makes it really really
criminalcreepy!SanderO @ 55
Time value. If you’re willing to wait, then you don’t pay interest. In fact, you earn it on your savings. But I guess you wouldn’t want that either.
SanderO:
Without profit, not much incentive to build.
In many urban areas (and a lot of not-very-urban areas), a lot of people are renting. (In LA, about 20 percent of the population is renters.)
The city of LA has a requirement that ‘market rate’ (read: high-rent) developments include a percentage of low-rent units, but some of the developers don’t want to do even that much.
It’s really worth reading atrios regularly to keep track of this topic.
There aren’t any simply solutions, like freezing foreclosures, because the securitization of the mortgages makes it very hard to sew them back together again. That is, if the derivative you hold is the last 10 years of payments, the person holding the first 10 years is not going to want to bail you out. People holding the least risky pieces paid for not having that risk, and are not going to forgo what they paid for.
And actually stitching them back together and valuing them clears away a lot of fog–and turns the derivatives into what atrios rightly calls “shitpiles.”
The legislation Jane is writing about is necessary, but it is backward looking. That kind of legislation was needed beforehand.
The wolves know that our economy is cyclical and is played by controlling the main elements, money in circulation being one of them.
The fed prints money and sells it to banks and brokerage firms which then turn that into debt instruments, loans and consumer debt which is used to spur the economy by allowing people to buy.
But if the debtors can service their debt the house of cards collapses and so the creepy mortgage and real estate industry simply made all sorts of fees and didn’t care about the rest.
Completely immoral and cynical. Don’t trust anyone who receives fees for their services. Make them work by the hour… regardless of their rate.
dakine01 @ 47
The standard fee is 2% of assets and 20% of any profits. Since hedge funds only report results after they made some money accurate numbers of overall performance is impossible to measure.
Unions and pension funds had better remove their money now from these hedge funds. The subprime problem is only expected to get worse… unless the Dems do something.
Selling at a loss is hard but its better than hoping Bush can bailout the hedges with his poll numbers while homeowners keep losing their homes!
A Democratic band aid for homeowners while Hedges get a full bailout would doom any Democratic presidential candidate even if they don’t vote for the bill.
Doing nothing is a choice voters will notice when that nothing is why their relatives have just moved in with them.
mui @ 58
:)
(OT – is anyone else watching cspan? The House is Running with it today. They’ve passed a whole slew of bills. It’s worth a lot just to see John Conyers outfit! whew)
Why must profit be the incentive? That is a bogus right wing capitalist talking point.
I suppose we wouldn’t be at war if profits were removed from the MIC? I’m for that!
SanderO @ 63
It’s good to know I shouldn’t be trusted.
RBG @ 68
Don’t forget immoral and cynical.
RBG @ 68
Ah I see, you’re over thirty!
What’s the basis for a fee transaction?
New thread.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..i/#respond
aliasofwestgate @ 46
Here’s what I don’t understand about this. From that link above:
Cleveland is facing a rising crime wave, and the cost of demolishing the vacant houses alone will cost the city $100m of its tax base.
Why is it Cleveland that pays to tear these down and not the banks and investment pools now owning them?
It stinks *everywhere* — anyone/thing remotely involved that is profiting is not doing a damn bit of clean up.
Re examine all assumptions. Capitalism is no worker’s paradise and assuming that the so called middle class works… it’s becoming a worker’s hell.
The great success of capitalism, the internal combustion engine is ruining the world. Ain’t it?
This is disappointing; Barney Frank is more interested in protecting the Secondary Financial Market than he is the homeowner.
Why my fight with Barney Frank should be your fight too
open left
The whole problem originates with the American
dreammyth, that you too can live the way those with actual money live, if you just sign on the dotted line….then, they give you all this other “spending” “money” to buy yer IPODs and all that “stuff”…then they tell you that you actually have to pay more thanthey thought you understoodthey told you when they gave you all that “money”….then they tell you that you have to give up “your” home and “your” things, because it actually has always belonged to them….then they takeyourtheir stuff and sell it again or write it off or get bailed out by their “buddies”…Meanwhile, a disillusioned society is left blowing in the wind…literally…
Why the hell wasn’t this illegal to begin with?
Mortgage brokers are free to take as much as they like from a transaction thus raising the rate for consumers…
That would be OK if it were possible for the consumer to comparison shop- but often that’s impossible…you don’t really find out what your interest rate is going to be usually until it’s too late to switch- and I’ve seen mortgage companies get all the way to the last day- and then demand an increase in rate at a point when the customer has no viable options.
It’s all about getting the customer committed using time as a weapon…
There needs to be change- but the change needs to be carefully crafted…the current system is anti- competitive.
Let me explain Yield spread premiums to you. This part of the system is undisclosed, and THAT is the problem.
If a mortgage broker or your bank charges you a point, there should be no need for a YSP. The banks issue rates every day and there is a sliding scale, computer driven, that shows what a specific loan product the borrower qualifies for (ie, a 680 FICO, which by the way, person upthread, is NOT a subprime score [you were hosed], 10% down, 10% secondary financing.) There are rates that show the bank will PAY the broker for bringing them a fully processed loan like this.
For example , 6.25% shows a COST today of .375 (percent of the loan amount)
Same loan same day, 6.375% , is PAR ( no rebate, no cost) 6.5% is .25% rebate , 6.625% is .5 % rebate.
If a broker is upfront he tells the borrower “My minimum profit on a loan has to be 1.5%. You can pay 1.875% and get 6.25%. Or you can go for one point and get 6.625%. Or any iteration in between. The broker shows them the rate sheet. So they can see what’s up.
The preceding is NOT happening. Many brokers and banks routinely profit by as much as 4 points per transaction and never show the borrowers the rate sheets or the YSP they are getting from the lender.
In addition, there is a 3/4 point bonus offered to the brokers if they can get a PREPAYMENT Penalty ( Often this is as long as five years, but generally two)
This provision is often inserted without the borrowers knowledge, and THAT is what the upthread person was referring to.
Because the financial process intimidating and mysterious, many are uncomfortable and place their trust in the brokers hands. More often than not , they end up with a product that they could have gotten for less if they only knew what questions to ask.
It’s not the Yield spread premium is that is the problem, but the failure to disclose it. The YSP serves as another market arbitrator, as different banks offer different YSPs every day. It helps to have competition.
There are myriad other factors, and as someone involved intimately with CMOs I think the subprime thing is being blamed for the real failure: The packaged mortgages are being graded incorrectly to offer high yield with lower risk. Not only that they are often tied and packaged with other instruments and commonly leveraged at a 10:1 basis. There’s not really a wave of foreclosures as much as there is a problem with pricing the risk, which led to the problems with the ultimate holders of these things: the wealthy who expect the Street to provide them with specific returns relative to their risk tolerance.
The foreclosure rate among subprime products is actually pretty typical for this stage of the economic credit cycle. It’s the pricing of these like they were “A” paper which is the problem. The financial press is dedicated to selling Stocks. They are a sales arm of Wall Street. They are skewing the true nature of the problem, and add predatory practices on top of this and you see the whole picture. They don’t want anyone in America to invest in Real Estate ever again. Instead they want you to feel that there’s only one place to go with your money: Wall Street, not Main Street. Hence the blood in the streets tone of financial reporting.They offer misleading stats like: The number of foreclosures is up by 45% over five years ago. But they don’t tell you that numbers are not the issue, because there’s five million more housing units in the market than existed back then. Statistics serve the person who wishes to exploit them, period.
What’s shameless in all of this is that they have shifted the focus from the secretive sleazy part of the Street’s actions in this to a judgment call over who should and shouldn’t own a home.
This is really about Wall Street exploiting things to the enrichment of their fat patrons once again.
Here’s a link, not sure how good it is:
http://www.foreclosurefreesearch.com/
Average Mortgage Broker take is 3% according to what I have heard from industry sources.
Some will do a loan for as little as 1%.
Mike
“all about Wall Street”
Well– it’s more about greedy little mortgage brokers -mostly small independants who want to make a killing on every deal and an undereducated public that lets em get away with it.
Cut off Bankruptcy(2004-5?) so the poor slubs have no exit and then….
Greed.
Greed.
Greed.
and a government that cashes in on it. Abominable.Shameful.
The collateral damage will be high. Blood in the streets type of stuff………
Here’s one of today’s yield rate tables. I pulled it from a Mortgage Banker’s web site.
Rate Broker Fee
5.375 3.102
5.500 2.514
5.625 1.984
5.750 1.332
5.875 0.594
6.000 0.111
6.125 -0.295
6.250 -0.660
6.375 -1.247
6.500 -1.643
6.625 -2.007
6.750 -2.338
6.875 -2.713
Rate is Annual percentage rate. Broker Fee is paid TO the bank if positive, and paid BY the bank if negative. This is called a back end fee if paid to the broker.
You can get a loan for no costs, but it will be at a higher rate that if you pay some costs.
Some brokers use the negative rates to pay themselves, because in addition to this back end fee, there is a front end fee, credit report & loan processing fee.
If the secondary mortgage is going to take a loss on a loan, why not give the homeowner a break?
[Before I rant, here’s a pretty good overview of the whole mortgage debacle [PDF, “The Subprime Lending Crisis”]. It’s from the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, so among other things it represents the least our Congresscritters should know on the subject. Also on the JEC page is a downloadable timeline on the crisis.]
LS @ 8
This is a good sign of how bad the desperation is getting. Like waiting for Santa Claus. As someone upthread said, the wealth transfer from this unconscionable debacle has already happened, in the fees and other upfront costs associated with making the loans and bundling them and selling them off. (The bill against using the yield spread premium to create hidden kickbacks to mortgage brokers is one measure that could remove some of the incentive to make predatory loans in the first place. Measures that would allow borrowers some recourse against the secondary purchasers of their loan contracts, i.e. the first rung of “investors” in the mortgage market, might help even more; this is one of the provisions of a bill that was reported out of Barney Frank’s committee last week. Both seem needed to me as a minimum.)
The idiotic expectation of the wealth transferees (ahem) was that either the housing market(s) would continue to boom, and so the interest flows from stretched borrowers could be sustained by refis against higher house appraisal values, or at worst the hedging devices would protect the holders of the loan assets from having to eat big losses if [when] the housing markets tanked.
Well, they have tanked now, pretty near everywhere. This is not surprising when you consider that the national-level activities of lenders have linked local housing markets tighter than ever. And the big money people are finding out that their hedging devices are all interlinked, too, which is the absolute last thing you want from a hedge. The screaming we hear from the Cramers (my, how fitting!) and other citrus these days has to do with their increasing fears that they might not be able to cash out all their loot and get away clean; at the very least, their machinery is going to shake itself to dust before their eyes.
Just wanted to put my two cents in here. I’m a mortgage loan processor and I completely agree that YSP is a scam. When a borrower comes to a broker and is told, “the best rate I can get you is 6.5%,” the home buyer typically has no way to check that out, no way to know if he or she qualifies for 6% but the broker has jacked up the rate in order to get those YSP points (here in Washington state, you can get up to 3% in YSP). The mortgage broker that I work for and I agree that YSP is sleazy and deceptive; it’s one of the reasons that we’re leaving the brokerage that we’re franchised with and going to work directly for a lender. No more YSP because we’ll be lending our own money, not somebody else’s.
By the way, Washington Mutual is now requiring brokers to have borrowers sign a disclosure that states YSP and the other terms of the loan they’re getting. Then WaMu calls the borrower and goes over it with him or her to make sure the home buyer understands everything. WaMu certainly has had its own ethical lapses (inflating appraisals), but I think this new program is a great idea.
demi @ 43
Precisely the group from whom the wealth was meant to be transferred. (For the record, I do think that some participants in this big lending bubble, including some of the well-placed ones, saw it explicitly as a wealth transfer, i.e. ripoff.)
And, because of their much smaller base, also the barely middle class, especially though hardly exclusively black and brown, is the group where most of the real suffering is being concentrated. However, the biggest losses are much more spread out than that, thanks to the secondary market, the hedges, etc.
I point this out not to invoke some kind of pity for the ruling class, but to hint just how deep the doo-doo from this really is. The folks who thought they were oh-so smart for pulling it off are suddenly in line to lose as big as anyone, and they are likely to take the increasingly tattered remnant of the country’s reputation with them. Ever hear any Argentina jokes? Well, get ready.
Tanta’s Ubernerd Guide To Mortgage Rate Pricing
eCAHNomics @ 38
The major mortgage holding US banks have creaed a $1billion fund directly to remove homes from the market after foreclosure so that the housing market remains inflated. They don’t want all homes to fall in prices as a consequence of the auctioned homes being bought at “fire-sale” prices.
So they have created a Trust between Chase, Morgan Stanley, BankAmericorp, Wachovia, and Citicorpbto manipulate competition.
All done with the approval of the Department of Treasury. Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Robet Taft and the other “Trust-Busters” would be aghast!
dakine01 @ 47
Which Presidential Candidate Works With A Hedge Fund?