Go get em Jane.

Jane!!!

And I even stopped to read first!

Well, I’m glad the sky isn’t falling.

Yes, it’s a bit difficult to make the whole “we just don’t have the money” argument when your CEO is making more than the budgets of some small countries.

All my kids are in the film business. Of course they support the strike. I told my daughter the story of a friend long ago who crossed a picket line to get a job in a very competitive business. He is still with the company and his nickname is still Scab.

“The future is too uncertain for us to give anything away.”
The rest of that argument is “…and therefore it is ok for us to not pay you fairly for your work.”
Sorry, I don’t accept that it is fair for studios and producers to keep making money off the backs of the writers just because another new technology has been developed that allows them to resell the material or resell the material under the guise of selling ads or whatever. It is not as if this is like those “first rights” contracts where a magazine buys “first North American rights” to an article or a story, but the rights then revert back to the author who can then recompile his or her stuff into a book and resell it him or herself.
Come on folks, fair is fair – isn’t it fair and right that the people who actually make us laugh and cry should be paid fairly? “Yes, but” is not an appropriate answer to that.

Why is it that when you get to the top you get so afraid? This is supposed to be a creative business. Theoretically one would latch onto innovation. All these guys can see is their billion dollar California lifestyle going down the tubes. My favorite line of all time is Woody Allen, I think in “Play it Again Sam” driving through a SoCal neighborhood explaining the cleanliness by saying, “They bundle all their trash and put it on television.”

I completely support the writer’s strike, and think it’s unconscionable that the studio execs refuse give them an equitable share in the residuals.

That being said, I think there’s a slight error in your piece. I think you left a zero out of the salary figure. I find it hard to believe that a union member makes only $5K a year. If so, then they’re even more screwed than I thought.

This is just another example of the race to the bottom on worker compensation.

When I was a Wall St. economist, I had a different theory about how wages were determined than you’ll ever read in textbooks or hear from other economists. My hypothesis was that corporations had all the power and workers had very little, until they got so scarce that corporations were forced to bid them away from each other. In the 1960s (the only postwar time that real wages rose robustly), it took an unemployment rate that rounded to 4.

All of the behavior that I have observed in the subsequent 7 years confirms my hypothesis.

And something additional about economic behavior. It is sometimes the case that corporations do not understand their economic power until some seminal event teaches them. For example, soft drink manufacturers did not understand their own pricing power until sugar prices skyrocketed in 1974, forcing them to raise product prices, which turned out did not discourage demand all that much. Thus, what was anticipated as a cost squeeze (one securities analyst actually threw himself out the window in despair) turned out to be a profit opportunity.

Apply this principle to corporations and wages. Employers probably didn’t realize how much control over wages that they have when this all started, but they certainly realize it now.

The other thing I want to say before I head out is how hard writing is, as most of you here know. The “kids” who write for places like the Cartoon Network are under incredible pressure to keep producing good material. We may think of it as bland or dumb, but these guys work a lot harder than the idiot at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. And they don’t have a family legacy to fall back on.

This is supposed to be a creative business.

You mean the business that mindlessly follow what ever stupid ass formula produced the last “blockbuster”? Right.

This is from the Gray Lady yesterday:

As it turns out, the pot of money that the producers and writers are fighting over may have already been pocketed by the entertainment industry’s biggest talent.

That is the conclusion of a surprisingly bleak new assessment of financial dynamics in the movie industry titled “Do Movies Make Money?” The researchers’ answer: not any more.

The report, prepared by the research company Global Media Intelligence in association with its partner Merrill Lynch, concludes that much of the income — past and future — that studios and writers have been fighting about has already gone to the biggest stars, directors and producers in the form of ballooning participation deals. A participation is a share in the gross revenue, not the profit, of a movie.

Through the twists and turns of contemporary deal-making, major studios in theory give away as much as 25 percent of a film’s receipts under such arrangements. The actual take is lower, because of certain adjustments. (This is Hollywood, after all.) But a Hanks, Cruise or Carrey whose movie brings $600 million back to the studio from all sources might easily wind up with a $20 million salary, and an additional $50 million on the back end, while an A-list director and producer could take in tens of millions more.

Go get ‘em Jane.

My brother got into LA late last night for a 3 day short visit. My mother is having surgery there today or tomorrow—depending on the surgeon’s schedule and whether or not an emergency comes in the door.

She is having her replacement knee replaced! It was done in 2001 and it broke leaving her alone and in a lot of pain late last week. I may have to come out at some time—probably after she gets out of rehab—if I can swing it. If so and the pickets are still going, I’ll carve out a bit of time to join them.

Picketing on Lankershim (tourist entrance & Metro stop nearby) gets the most press, but to cause actual work stoppage & subsequent attention from the brass @ Universal, picketing really needs to be done @ the Barham Blvd. gate.

Let’s see if the Teamsters cross this main truck gate on Barham. I’m thinking no way, since their local union rep says they need to respect WGA picket lines.

Many friends affected here. “Get back to the table, this town’s economy needs it” might be a good slogan on a sign…

OT..but still Cal. news

Feinstein Faces Dem Censure After Backing Mukasey

HuffPo

Not likely to happen but at least she is getting some heat.

eCAHN…

re: Wikipedia

Actually, I figured you probably knew that caveat lector applied to wikipedia. Mrs BC teaches freshman (college) comp, and I can tell from the screams when another student has turned in a paper (nearly) sole-sourced to wikipedia.

But I was also sure that some of our listers probably don’t know that wiki has to be used very carefully for critical work.

BC

apropos of strike day

reality tv singularity, LOL!

Hollywood turned into a clucking pack of chicken littles when video arrived, certain that it would seal the doom of the theatrical motion picture business. In fact just the opposite happened — they found that the people who rented videos were in large part not the same people who went to the movies, they sold the same number of theater tickets as always but they opened up an enormously lucrative ancillary market that provided a huge profit center long after a film’s theatrical run had played out.

Les Moonves made $28.6 million last year. It’s awfully hard to accept this overweening concern for the future of the industry and simultaneously justify that kind of executive compensation. The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Says it all right there!

And then this, also from the Gray Lady:

“There is this myth that is being perpetuated about the greedy, rich writer who just wants more,” [Bradford Winters] said, the apartment otherwise quiet now that his family had stepped out. “I am not saying that writing television is not a lucrative business. It can be for those who are good at it and hit it big. But for a lot of us, it is very hit or miss. You ride the edge of the knife. A show gets picked up, it gets canceled, and then you are back looking for your next job.”

(snip)

“I think it is a specious argument for the producers to say that they don’t know if there will be profits in digital media,” he said, taking a sip of water at the table below an overhanging loft in the apartment. “It was the same argument that was used when DVDs and cable became part of the business, and time has proven that both of those were very lucrative businesses. If the studios don’t make money on new media, we don’t make money.”

(snip)

“Now that I am at a standstill, I have to face the question of what we as a family are doing and how we are going to do into the future,” Mr. Winters said. “I have to look into other avenues of putting bread on the table.”

The writer’s effort to be dealt a share of any digital business seems like the right issue at precisely the wrong time. Both platforms and nightstands are lousy with content, and every consumer is also a potential producer. With user-assisted robots like Google and YouTube searching and dealing all manner of media, who needs writers?

Producers and networks are not feeling the heat because consequences, if there are any, will mostly come in the form of next year’s upfronts. In the meantime, they can make do with what is already in the can and fill up the rest of the time with retread reality like the comeback of “American Gladiator.”

“We are not the ones who are going to lose our houses,” one producer told Entertainment Weekly.

Bargain Countertenor @ 17

eCAHN…

re: Wikipedia

Actually, I figured you probably knew that caveat lector applied to wikipedia. Mrs BC teaches freshman (college) comp, and I can tell from the screams when another student has turned in a paper (nearly) sole-sourced to wikipedia.

But I was also sure that some of our listers probably don’t know that wiki has to be used very carefully for critical work.

BC

Yes, I can certainly see how wiki would drive a teacher insane. Did you see my final comment about watching wiki as an example of an unregulated market, which (as with the rest of life) turns out needs some regulation to work better. I understand that wiki now has some oversight, but am not familiar enuf to know how much that’s helped.

None of the studio chiefs would talk on the record, but if I were to sum up their views, I’d put it this way: The future is too uncertain for us to give anything away.

This is simply another blatant example of the economic and social distortions that the corporate media themselves have engendered over the last 30 years in our society.

They promulgate the misconception that owners’ and managers’ proprietary interest in commercial enterprises is somehow greater than or superior to the interest of workers.

Now these media “aristocrats” are using this same misconception they have disseminated as a tool for cutting out the interests of society and workers from the commercial enterprise they have been entrusted with.

This is bald theft, not only of the benefits and sustenance — money — the writers are entitled to by virtue of their participation in the media enterprises, but it is an attempt to steal the very idea of democratic participation from the business sector of our society.

So the assault on democracy continues, abetted by corporate media in broadcasting and in their own management policies.

Isn’t it time We, The People, the sovereigns in our system, called upon our “representatives” to intervene on behalf of our democratic rights and principles, and for the workers?

Whenever a new technology has arrived, Hollywood has seen it as a grave threat to prosperity, whether it was the coming of talkies, the growth of television or the arrival of the VCR, the greatest gravy train of all, which the studios immediately attempted to sue out of existence.

To hear them talk, you’d think they were running an airline or an American auto company, to name just two ailing industries that have forced workers to take pay cuts and health care rollbacks to keep the ship afloat.

The author should have then gone on to make your point, Jane [the one you made by mentioning Moonves salary]: these “oh poor me” industries always manage to take health care, pensions & salaries away from workers, while permitting management to retain the same.

What do business executives do with their multi-million-dollar annual salaries?

Another union the ruling elites would like to break. Solidarity today, solidarity tomorrow, solidarity forever.

I recognize that striking [both meanings] blond on the left [both meanings] in the picture, but who are the others?

I doubt that the latest planned crop of diversions will make much of an impact, being that we are all writers busy creating our own subjective reality shows. However, 24% of the population has been shown to stuff beans up their nose even after being cautioned against such wanton abuse of legumes, so…

;>)

The most essential cog in the machine…The story, receives the least compensation for its creators.
Pay the writers. It will benefit the entire industry.

1,658 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Good on ya, sister Hamsher…have you ever walked a picket line before or carried a card for a trade? I certainly don’t want to over romanticise strike solidarity or the bonding of the union experience, a strike is a terribly powerful thing that changes everything and everyone involved in it, but I think that the element that has been missin’ from our politics since Reagan is the sense of relationship or brotherhood and sisterhood that union people shared on political campaigns and brought to middle class folks who would never stand a picket line or carry a banner.

What is interestin’ today is that if we are to recover that sense of connectedness in our politics and if the union movement is to regenerate, it is gunna happen within what used ta be the middle and white collar class of worker. People who never saw themselves as “union workers” such as teachers, counselors, office workers, writers and other “professionals” are now realizin’ that all the rhetoric they grew up hearin from the other side of the tracks actually applies to them and that the concept of “boss” has a real meaning and objective presense in the corporation or the school board or the county commissioners.

Your writing attracts people because it is informed by your experience of reachin’ out and movin into new neighborhoods and experiencin’ other family members. You are constantly growin’, your never lay down in the past and it comes through in your writing. Keep sendin’ us updates from the front lines of the strike, Jane, you can help to extend the connectedness of the strikers to us people back here in the neighborhood.

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T GIVE UP…DON’T EVER GIVE UP!!

They promulgate the misconception that owners’ and managers’ proprietary interest in commercial enterprises is somehow greater than or superior to the interest of workers.

Now these media “aristocrats” are using this same misconception they have disseminated as a tool for cutting out the interests of society and workers from the commercial enterprise they have been entrusted with.

We need to somehow bring our whole society over to understanding the difference between share holders and stake holders.

P J Evans @ 24

What do business executives do with their multi-million-dollar annual salaries?

Pay off the politicians so they can keep the money rolling in.

Both sides are now acting against their best interests by allowing this strike to go on. There is no reason that they cannot find some agreement on this – they’re going to have to eventually. And there is no reason that the WGA shouldn’t be engaging in talks while this strike is on. If they expect their union members to walk the streets without a paycheck for weeks on end, the least that should be expected of them is that they sit in a room and try to work out an agreement. As for the producers, in a week or two, they’ll have nothing else to do, so they might as well sit in a room and try too. It’s infuriating that this strike was allowed to happen and even more that there are no talks even scheduled. It’s in the best interests of the union and the studios to try to reach an agreement.

Why was there so much pressure before the strike and now there is no pressure? Isn’t a strike supposed to pressure people to the bargaining table?

raven @ 12

This is supposed to be a creative business.

You mean the business that mindlessly follow what ever stupid ass formula produced the last “blockbuster”? Right.

This is stark, raven, maddingly true, however.

This $ame method has great $uce$$ in politic$ a$ well, No?

Is Rudiness but Bushlie redux? Is Hillarious but Bushy lite? Sequels don’t, usually,
get ‘better’.

Is it big-time politics or big-time Hollywood which best exemplifies ‘Nothing exceeds like excess’!???

A striking writer for the Colbert report is going to be on Brian Lehrer show in the coming hour. I’ll let you know when he comes on. You can click on the listen live link on wnyc.org.

And the strike might soon extend into MSM news divisions:

About 500 unionized news writers are expected to vote Thursday to authorize a strike, potentially joining their creative colleagues on the picket line.

The writers, employees of CBS News television and radio, are represented by Writers Guild of America East.

eCAHNomics @ 10

When I was a Wall St. economist, I had a different theory about how wages were determined than you’ll ever read in textbooks or hear from other economists. My hypothesis was that corporations had all the power and workers had very little, until they got so scarce that corporations were forced to bid them away from each other. In the 1960s (the only postwar time that real wages rose robustly), it took an unemployment rate that rounded to 4.

unless i am confused (again *g*), i think dean baker agrees:

The article correctly reports that the Fed adjusts interest rates to prevent inflation from getting too high, explaining that “when inflation is a concern, it raises borrowing costs to cool economic growth, which weakens businesses’ power to raise prices.”

Well, not exactly. The immediate target of the Fed’s anti-inflation policy is wages, not prices. In fact, many macro-models have prices being a fixed mark-up over wages, which implies that the only way to control prices is to control wages. The Taylor rule, the standard guidepost for Fed policy, is based in part on the gap between a definition of full employment (the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) and the current level of unemployment.

This isn’t being picky. The point is that the Fed slows inflation by raising the unemployment rate and throwing people out of work, thereby placing downward pressure on the wages of those who still have jobs.

RevDeb @ 30

P J Evans @ 24

What do business executives do with their multi-million-dollar annual salaries?

Pay off the politicians so they can keep the money rolling in.

No, they tear down $25 million dollar mansions and put up $250 million dollar ones that they can then read about in Architectural Digest. And then they buy a beach house, then a ski place, and then . . .

Michael Savage…what a dangerous crackpot:

http://mediamatters.org/items/…..8?f=h_side

David W. Bartoo @ 32

raven @ 12

This is supposed to be a creative business.

You mean the business that mindlessly follow what ever stupid ass formula produced the last “blockbuster”? Right.

This is stark, raven, maddingly true, however.

This $ame method has great $uce$$ in politic$ a$ well, No?

Is Rudiness but Bushlie redux? Is Hillarious but Bushy lite? Sequels don’t, usually,
get ‘better’.

Is it big-time politics or big-time Hollywood which best exemplifies ‘Nothing exceeds like excess’!???

Good reason not to give a shit I guess.

um, Tom Freston was largely responsible for building MTV from nothing into something over 25 years. Having a large payout when getting pushed out of the company that you built by someone who is a true a**hole, Sumner Redston, is not unreasonable.

Of all the people to throw under the bus on this, Freston isn’t the one.

selise @ 35
The passage you cite is more about business cycle behavior whereas my model is about something more long run & fundamental. This thread is probably not the forum for going into more detail, though.

eCAHNomics @ 40

selise @ 35
The passage you cite is more about business cycle behavior whereas my model is about something more long run & fundamental. This thread is probably not the forum for going into more detail, though.

fair enough, but i hope you will indulge me sometime in epu land.

And facetious advice for striking writers:

Look on the Writers Guild of America strike not as a painful crimp in your earnings potential but as a heaven-sent opportunity to return to your first love, the theater, where the writer is still king, albeit of a relatively dinky kingdom. Fate has given you another shot at artistic redemption. Don’t let it slip away. They may settle this thing any minute, and then where would you be? (I am assuming, of course, that they more quickly settle the Broadway stagehands strike.)

I’m being at least half-facetious. The classic sellout formula for writers hasn’t fit the true picture of American culture for some time, possibly not since Williams and Odets went west, with vastly different results. In those days most writers looked on film work as slumming. Williams scooted back to New York and the theater after a dispiriting period cranking out screenplays for the likes of Lana Turner, just in time for “The Glass Menagerie” in 1945.

Odets, a hot name when he arrived in Los Angeles, got hooked on the money and continued to work in Hollywood for years, growing sour and self-disgusted. Shortly before he died, in 1963, he had been the object of ridicule for his latest gig, as a writer and script supervisor on an NBC television show.

Today there is obviously no shame in writing for movies and television. (And, as someone who lived in Los Angeles for a stretch, I can attest that a good bagel is not so hard to find either.) More pertinently, with Broadway overrun by musicals and the theater having dwindled to a small niche in American culture, it is not easy to earn a good living strictly as a playwright.

selise @ 41

eCAHNomics @ 40

selise @ 35
The passage you cite is more about business cycle behavior whereas my model is about something more long run & fundamental. This thread is probably not the forum for going into more detail, though.

fair enough, but i hope you will indulge me sometime in epu land.

Look forward to it.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 28

1,658 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Good on ya, sister Hamsher…have you ever walked a picket line before or carried a card for a trade? I certainly don’t want to over romanticise strike solidarity or the bonding of the union experience, a strike is a terribly powerful thing that changes everything and everyone involved in it, but I think that the element that has been missin’ from our politics since Reagan is the sense of relationship or brotherhood and sisterhood that union people shared on political campaigns and brought to middle class folks who would never stand a picket line or carry a banner.

What is interestin’ today is that if we are to recover that sense of connectedness in our politics and if the union movement is to regenerate, it is gunna happen within what used ta be the middle and white collar class of worker. People who never saw themselves as “union workers” such as teachers, counselors, office workers, writers and other “professionals” are now realizin’ that all the rhetoric they grew up hearin from the other side of the tracks actually applies to them and that the concept of “boss” has a real meaning and objective presense in the corporation or the school board or the county commissioners.

Your writing attracts people because it is informed by your experience of reachin’ out and movin into new neighborhoods and experiencin’ other family members. You are constantly growin’, your never lay down in the past and it comes through in your writing. Keep sendin’ us updates from the front lines of the strike, Jane, you can help to extend the connectedness of the strikers to us people back here in the neighborhood.

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T GIVE UP…DON’T EVER GIVE UP!!

Truth!

BTW, Jane you appear to be having too much fun in the process of changing the world. Must exasperate the ‘gravitas’ crowd. Hmm… seems like good, clean fun to me. Too much grimness; counter with joyful consciousness.

Unions are evil because they give ordinary people powers rightfully reserved for those who have inherited wealth. Bush understands this and will restore things to their proper order.

It’s hard work keeping the ordinary in their place, so he’ll probably need many long vacations.

I support the writers.

It’s odd that this thing has come to a strike- as I understand it- there’s no real money at stake yet- only the possibility of money. Seems that they could reach and interim agreement until such time as it becomes a real issue- but I guess everyone is worried about “precedent”?

Not to say that the studio business is [not] screwy (and I am sure I don’t know 1% as much as Jane on this) but I would be interested to see a statistical profile of the WGA and Actors guild membership. I expect the same pattern will be true of many industries: a whole lot of people making very little, and a few making a lot.

Comparing the top exectives with the average compensation for the WGA membership is not worthy of you Jane.

[edited to add “not”]

eCAHNomics @ 43 –

thanks!

Sparkatus @ 47

Not to say that the studio business is [not] screwy (and I am sure I don’t know 1% as much as Jane on this) but I would be interested to see a statistical profile of the WGA and Actors guild membership. I expect the same pattern will be true of many industries: a whole lot of people making very little, and a few making a lot.

Comparing the top exectives with the average compensation for the WGA membership is not worthy of you Jane.

[edited to add “not”]

Here’s the comparison that should be made. When you ask executives like Moonves why they make so much money, they will invariably say, “Because I make money for the company.” We writers CREATE the products the company sells. Mr. Moonves would be sitting there with his thumb up his butt without us (and soon will be) yet we’re not seen as “making money for the company.” That’s what’s wrong with the picture, folks, and what’s wrong with America.

rwcole @ 46

I support the writers.

It’s odd that this thing has come to a strike- as I understand it- there’s no real money at stake yet- only the possibility of money.

Too true. Here in the Austin area TV shows have shut production. The people out of work don’t make that much to start with, so it is kind of weird. They live frugally to start with. It is the high tech people from Dell and other such companies that make the big money. That and a few directors that will go un-named. . .

OT–

Another veto from Chimpy:

Filed at 10:58 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush on Tuesday signed a big increase in the Pentagon’s non-war budget, and vetoed a spending measure for health and education programs prized by congressional Democrats.

The president’s action was announced on Air Force One as Bush flew to Indiana for a speech expected to criticize the Democratic-led Congress on its budget priorities.

Why even bother? I say.

George Simian @ 31

Both sides are now acting against their best interests by allowing this strike to go on. There is no reason that they cannot find some agreement on this – they’re going to have to eventually. And there is no reason that the WGA shouldn’t be engaging in talks while this strike is on. If they expect their union members to walk the streets without a paycheck for weeks on end, the least that should be expected of them is that they sit in a room and try to work out an agreement. As for the producers, in a week or two, they’ll have nothing else to do, so they might as well sit in a room and try too. It’s infuriating that this strike was allowed to happen and even more that there are no talks even scheduled. It’s in the best interests of the union and the studios to try to reach an agreement.

Why was there so much pressure before the strike and now there is no pressure? Isn’t a strike supposed to pressure people to the bargaining table?

The threat of strike is variable, you can notch it up and dial it back. When will it happen? Exactly how?

But once done, the costs and benefits become a lot clearer, and certain costs (buying signs, arranging schedules, buses, scabs or reruns as the case may be) are largely unrecoverable. The cost of waiting one more day may seem small vs the hope that the other side will cave first.
With high stakes, the side that can put up the best front wins. Telegraphing that you want to go to the negotiating table indicattes weakness.

eCAHNomics @ 43

selise @ 41

fair enough, but i hope you will indulge me sometime in epu land.

Look forward to it.

Ladies, in all seriousness, please announce this conversation, if that is possible. I, for one, would be most interested to hear what you both have to say.

1,658 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Sparkatus and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“Comparing the top executives with the average compensation for the WGA is not worthy of you Jane.”

And why not, brother Sparkatus, that is in fact the truth of capitalism that can only be addressed by unions and direct action…so why is it beneath Jane to throw the bright light of her writing on this truth?

Certainly you don’t argue for some sort of natural order of things that justifies the distribution of wealth from economic activity that creates a master and serf class…or do ya?

KEEP THE FAITH, NOTHING IS BENEATH YOU UNDERSTAND!!

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

NorskeFlamethrower @ 54

1,658 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Sparkatus and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“Comparing the top executives with the average compensation for the WGA is not worthy of you Jane.”

And why not, brother Sparkatus, that is in fact the truth of capitalism that can only be addressed by unions and direct action…so why is it beneath Jane to throw the bright light of her writing on this truth?

Certainly you don’t argue for some sort of natural order of things that justifies the distribution of wealth from economic activity that creates a master and serf class…or do ya?

KEEP THE FAITH, NOTHING IS BENEATH YOU UNDERSTAND!!

I second this. Sparkatus?

David W. Bartoo @ 53

eCAHNomics @ 43

Look forward to it.

Ladies, in all seriousness, please announce this conversation, if that is possible. I, for one, would be most interested to hear what you both have to say.

It concerns my hypothesis on the macroeconomic behavior of wages & how much control corporations have. It’s too OT to go into in this thread.

Sandman @ 55

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

$50K. I think $5K is a typo.

“A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 61% of Americans would like to see U.S. troops brought home from Iraq within a year. For the second week in a row, that figure is up two points from the week before. Over the last eleven weeks, the number wanting troops home within a year has ranged from a low of 57% to a high of 64%.

Twenty-six percent (26%) now want the troops brought home immediately. That’s unchanged from a week ago.

Looking at the other end of the spectrum, 33% now want troops to remain in Iraq until the mission is complete. That’s down two points from a week ago.”

Rasmussen

Another answer to the question “Do americans want us to leave Iraq immediately”?

The answer is “No- but soon”

Of course it seems that people have been saying that they want out within a year for over a year- so who knows?

eCAHNomics @ 57

David W. Bartoo @ 53

Ladies, in all seriousness, please announce this conversation, if that is possible. I, for one, would be most interested to hear what you both have to say.

It concerns my hypothesis on the macroeconomic behavior of wages & how much control corporations have. It’s too OT to go into in this thread.

I understand the OT, but, in future, if the conversation is on the ‘waves’ I would very much appreciate listening in. Thanks, eCAHN.

I saw on HGTV a 700 square foot condo go for $269,000 in Silver Spring, MD a suburb of Washington, DC. I know that real estate in Los Angeles is just as expensive. How do people live?

dalloway @ 49

Sparkatus @ 47

Not to say that the studio business is [not] screwy (and I am sure I don’t know 1% as much as Jane on this) but I would be interested to see a statistical profile of the WGA and Actors guild membership. I expect the same pattern will be true of many industries: a whole lot of people making very little, and a few making a lot.

Comparing the top exectives with the average compensation for the WGA membership is not worthy of you Jane.

[edited to add “not”]

Here’s the comparison that should be made. When you ask executives like Moonves why they make so much money, they will invariably say, “Because I make money for the company.” We writers CREATE the products the company sells. Mr. Moonves would be sitting there with his thumb up his butt without us (and soon will be) yet we’re not seen as “making money for the company.” That’s what’s wrong with the picture, folks, and what’s wrong with America.

How much did the person who created the pants you are wearing get paid?

There is definitely value created all along the way. And obviously writers create huge value. Actors would have nothing to do. Stagehands, etc.

With copyright, creative writing is actually pretty well protected, but with many other fields of knowledge creation, the information can’t be kept back. Trying to get actual pay for the value in the information you create is frequently a giant part of the economic problem.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you SHOULD be paid well for what you create, but your arguement is with the very nature of the world and the nature of the capitalist system. People get paid what the market will bear (what their relative power can bring them) not the true value of their product to those who buy it or otherwise receive it.

About 1960 the average CEO made 40x the salary of the average worker, now it is 400x, what happened in just 47 years?

What are TV Writers Doing Now?
Peter Gwinn, a writer for the Colbert Report, comes on to riff on the news and flex his comedic muscles while he is on strike.

Next up on http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/2007/11/13

Cost of Living Index for Los Angeles.

Sparkatus @ 39

um, Tom Freston was largely responsible for building MTV from nothing into something over 25 years. Having a large payout when getting pushed out of the company that you built by someone who is a true a**hole, Sumner Redston, is not unreasonable.

Of all the people to throw under the bus on this, Freston isn’t the one.

What was Freston getting paid in the meantime?

Sandman @ 55

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

It’s $5,000. You do know what average means? Right?

Actually are 3 people talking about the strike on wnyc.org, including John Oliver. Can also call in at 212-433-9692.

People will always pay for stories; the human brain is wired to love stories. In history classes, I learned about Homer. I was never taught about his agent, his producer, his set designer, or his attorney. That suggests that the storytellers – the writers – are the heart the entertainment industry.

In the age of $500 DVD cameras, iMovie, YouTube, online gaming, and a wide range of entertainments, people still like stories. But now, rather than simply hearing stories, they also like to make them.

Which means the audiences for what studios produce is shrinking; whereas the audiences for stories are as strong as ever.

I don’t understand how any studio exec can drive by a local Apple Computer store and fail to grasp the simple fact that no single medium, and no single corporation, controls media anymore.

Maybe this is largely about the fact that the moguls are privately terrified. New digital technologies are fundamentally transforming storytelling on a massive scale. All media need writers. Not all media need studio execs.

I assume that part of this brouhaha reflects genuine terror among very driven, affluent interests that happen to be on the wrong demographic, technical, economic, and sociological side of the issue.

Audiences don’t simply want to consume; they want to participate and create. In fact, they EXPECT to participate. Writers help them do that; studios don’t.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 67

Sandman @ 55

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

It’s $5,000. You do know what average means? Right?

I know people can not live on $5,000 a year!

Biodun @ 58

Sandman @ 55

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

$50K. I think $5K is a typo.

I believe the median is in the $5K range, based on some discussions on this last week. The average IIRC is approximately $200K but that’s skewed by the few high dollar recipients.

Like the discussion went, Bill Gates and 2 minimum wage workers in a room together, the average net worth is $15B but that doesn’t mean a damn thing to the two minimum wage worekrs.

Half of union is unemployed at any one time & residuals are how they live.

the whole notion of value creation is screwed up

Right now if you stream a movie online & watch it all, the writer gets nothing.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 54

1,658 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Sparkatus and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“Comparing the top executives with the average compensation for the WGA is not worthy of you Jane.”

And why not, brother Sparkatus, that is in fact the truth of capitalism that can only be addressed by unions and direct action…so why is it beneath Jane to throw the bright light of her writing on this truth?

Certainly you don’t argue for some sort of natural order of things that justifies the distribution of wealth from economic activity that creates a master and serf class…or do ya?

KEEP THE FAITH, NOTHING IS BENEATH YOU UNDERSTAND!!

A more appropriate comparison would be the top WGA member with the top executive. Median pay for the Company with median pay for the WGA, mean pay for the Company with mean pay for the WGA.

That’s not to say that income distribution isn’t a great subject to discuss as well. It is. But that particular comparison was apples and oranges.

If it’s 5000 that says to me that there are a whole lot of folks in the WGA that aren’t working and/or are working part time at writing. (and I would imagine that might be right, actually).

I’m all for strong regulation and more progressive tax system (by no means is capitalism and markets the cure for all ills). But other economic systems haven’t worked so well either, and *certainly* haven’t worked so well for writers.

Actors support strinke becausde they know they’re next in line for contract negotiations.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 67

Sandman @ 55

The average WGA member makes about $5000 a year.

Is this true or did you mean $50,000 a year?

It’s $5,000. You do know what average means? Right?

It means that when industry executives go to lunch they get a pitched script with every entree.

Further to my 65:

One stat that jumps out from the link is that cost of living in LA is 40 percent higher than the national average.

Baseball players and pop stars are way over paid… but it’s a sort of conspiracy to ramp up and distort the high end… everyone gets into the act at the top end.. and they drive it up. Completely non linear and compensation has nothing to do with value.

Completely OT.

Google has a Israeli handler?

(IsraelNN.com) “Google is not and should not become the central arbiter of what does and does and does not appear on the Web. That’s for elected governments and courts to decide,” said Google’s Israeli director Meir Brand Monday morning at a conference on terrorism and anti-Semitism in Herzliya.
http://www.israelnationalnews……spx/124238

Off topic, kinda, but Strike Baby is my niece! Isn’t she adorable?

Strike Baby on Defamer!

Networks report on when an actor joins the strike but doesn’t report on the issues.

I imagine that most writers don’t write as a full time job-

And the strike has widespread fallout for many who are not writers:

The strike casualties among the show’s crew include camera operators, assistants, grips, electricians, hair and makeup artists and many more. And then there are the extras.

“We use a lot of extras each week, and these people barely make it,” Thorpe said. “What are they going to do? It’s so unbelievably painful to think about the size of this. Thousands and thousands of us have lost our jobs this week. The lady I buy my donuts from — she has two kids in college. It a huge loss of income.”

There are concerns that about 50,000 from IATSE-represented crafts and 30,000-plus in the postproduction industry are facing the prospect of scripted series going dark one by one as they run out of scripts from striking writers. Most crew members are employed on a week-to-week basis, so they are laid off immediately after a show shuts down production.

Mortgage payments, health benefits, pensions, tuition and families are top of mind. There also is the realization that some will be forced to leave the business, and it’s unlikely they will return.

Of those affected in production, some are filing for unemployment and others are looking for work in commercials or indie films, making these areas more crowded.

Things could get worse if the commercial production business slows down as some predict, with ad agencies growing hesitant to invest in spots that would air during reruns.

SanderO @ 79

Baseball players and pop stars are way over paid… but it’s a sort of conspiracy to ramp up and distort the high end… everyone gets into the act at the top end.. and they drive it up. Completely non linear and compensation has nothing to do with value.

I have to agree with you there. An executive who runs a corporation into the ground gets a golden parachute. The rank and file get the shaft.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 66

Sparkatus @ 39

um, Tom Freston was largely responsible for building MTV from nothing into something over 25 years. Having a large payout when getting pushed out of the company that you built by someone who is a true a**hole, Sumner Redston, is not unreasonable.

Of all the people to throw under the bus on this, Freston isn’t the one.

What was Freston getting paid in the meantime?

Don’t know (I didn’t throw out the previous comp number either), but I’m sure it wasn’t small change.

Sparkatus @ 62

dalloway @ 49

Here’s the comparison that should be made. When you ask executives like Moonves why they make so much money, they will invariably say, “Because I make money for the company.” We writers CREATE the products the company sells. Mr. Moonves would be sitting there with his thumb up his butt without us (and soon will be) yet we’re not seen as “making money for the company.” That’s what’s wrong with the picture, folks, and what’s wrong with America.

How much did the person who created the pants you are wearing get paid?

There is definitely value created all along the way. And obviously writers create huge value. Actors would have nothing to do. Stagehands, etc.

With copyright, creative writing is actually pretty well protected, but with many other fields of knowledge creation, the information can’t be kept back. Trying to get actual pay for the value in the information you create is frequently a giant part of the economic problem.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you SHOULD be paid well for what you create, but your arguement is with the very nature of the world and the nature of the capitalist system. People get paid what the market will bear (what their relative power can bring them) not the true value of their product to those who buy it or otherwise receive it.

The statement ‘the very nature of the world’ is ‘over-the-top’ and equivalent to ‘it has ever been thus’ in the realm of reasonable discussion.

That it is ‘the nature of capitalism’ as it is NOW practiced, is true.

To suggest that nothing can be ‘change’ because the ‘world’ or ‘God’ made or makes it that way is not useful to mature discussion; the purpose of such an assertion is to end discussion, not to encourage it. These words may well represent your reasoned conclusions. However, if you wish to engage others in seeking change or even the possibility of change, statements of this nature are neither useful nor helpful.

MTV is pretty stupid… it’s time is long past.

It’s part of the dumbing down of culture and it really was a wrong term in the scheme of things.

I’m trying to nail down the “the average WGA member makes…” figure, because it’s widely thrown around and I’ve seen vastly disparate figures claimed. I googled that exact phrase, and found this: On the website “United Hollywood,” strike captain and WGA member George Hickenlooper writes: “What is true is that the average Guild member makes 5K per year from his or her writing services, the average Guild member is middle class, and the average Guild member has been financially taken advantage of for the past two decades to the point of embarrassment.” I’ll take that figure as gospel until it’s convincingly contradicted.

By the way, “average income” numbers for any of the performers’ unions (SAG, AFTRA, Equity) are similarly surprisingly low because of the random nature of the work. For writers, sure, series staff writers and/or writer/producers occupy the healthier end of the scale, but there are plenty of struggling (or “between-projects,” i.e. unemployed) writers at the lower end…all of whom need every scrap of income their work will bring them.

Tom Freston received $60 million after getting FIRED? In Severance Pay?
They must have really thought he did a piss poor job to want to get rid of him THAT BAD! But then it raises the question…who hired this incompetant? Should they be fired for their incompetance? Or would they all get $60 million dollar severance packages, too?

Whenever a new technology has arrived, Hollywood has seen it as a grave threat to prosperity…..

Fear of the unknown. It is the same fear that has kept Civil Rights at a baby step crawl. Too bad the Shrub Regime didn’t have that fear before they went into Iraq. Talk about getting everything backwards. Equal rights SCARY……WAR not scary.

Bargain Countertenor @ 17

eCAHN…

re: Wikipedia

Actually, I figured you probably knew that caveat lector applied to wikipedia. Mrs BC teaches freshman (college) comp, and I can tell from the screams when another student has turned in a paper (nearly) sole-sourced to wikipedia.

But I was also sure that some of our listers probably don’t know that wiki has to be used very carefully for critical work.

BC

This is why I put restrictions on the number of Internet sources students can use in a paper.

EvilDrPuma @ 92

Bargain Countertenor @ 17

eCAHN…

re: Wikipedia

Actually, I figured you probably knew that caveat lector applied to wikipedia. Mrs BC teaches freshman (college) comp, and I can tell from the screams when another student has turned in a paper (nearly) sole-sourced to wikipedia.

But I was also sure that some of our listers probably don’t know that wiki has to be used very carefully for critical work.

BC

This is why I put restrictions on the number of Internet sources students can use in a paper.

Does the http://www.nytimes.com count as an internet source?

Turkey bombin Iraq—the Turkish Iraq war appears to have started—according the Clusterfuck- the Iranian Iraq war started some time ago as did the Syrian Iraq war…

There’s something for everyone.

And John Quaintance nails it on the head:

The sprinkling of kids at the Paramount picket line and others around town didn’t keep the adults from venting their frustrations on Day 8 of the WGA strike, launched after the collapse of film and TV contract talks with the Alliance of Motion Picture & Television Producers.

“I think that (Fox president) Peter Chernin and (News Corp. chairman) Rupert Murdoch and some other people, their goal is to break the union,” said John Quaintance, a writer on the ABC sitcom “Notes From the Underbelly.” “Rupert Murdoch is an established union buster, and he is a strong voice in the AMPTP.”

My bold. This is the widespread belief in the grapevine, even among those who are not talking for the record.

I am completely on the side of the writers, but I don’t think events like “Picketing With The Stars” are a great idea. Management is pushing the (false) idea that the writers are a bunch of rich, selfish, overpaid people who are greedily demanding too much and keeping the public from seeing their favorite shows. We need to hear more from struggling writers and less from wealthy celebrities who will manage to push the other side’s agenda with their very presence.

I’d have no problem if the “stars” introduce the “real people” and help them tell their stories.

Does anyone know what the Union dues are for this Union?

As many of you know, the stagehands are striking on Broadway as well. I have a strike primer up right now at my sight with links to further information on the strike. If any FDL readers are in the tri-state area, come on down and show your support for good working class jobs.

http://armadillojoenyc.livejournal.com/66770.html

Sparkatus @ 39

um, Tom Freston was largely responsible for building MTV from nothing into something over 25 years. Having a large payout when getting pushed out of the company that you built by someone who is a true a**hole, Sumner Redston, is not unreasonable.

Of all the people to throw under the bus on this, Freston isn’t the one.

Thank you for restoring my recently found good opinion of Tom Freston. He did a nice thing for folks with special education kids too. Too complicated to summarize…

Sandman @ 93

EvilDrPuma @ 92

This is why I put restrictions on the number of Internet sources students can use in a paper.

Does the http://www.nytimes.com count as an internet source?

If the article also appeared on paper, no, it doesn’t…although one could argue whether the gray lady is any more reliable than Wikipedia these days. Students can use the convenience of JSTOR as much as they want and it’s fine with me. But an entirely Wikipedia-sourced paper is bad news and they need to know that.

Biodun @ 34

And the strike might soon extend into MSM news divisions:

About 500 unionized news writers are expected to vote Thursday to authorize a strike, potentially joining their creative colleagues on the picket line.

The writers, employees of CBS News television and radio, are represented by Writers Guild of America East.

Hmm! What happens when this creeps into the reporting ranks? Will the networks be filled with trite re-runs of cute animal stories and info-tainment bits? Or maybe they’ll simply rent out the time to the half hour long commercials for Home Exercise gear and time-shares around Lake Kikokompichee.

Wouldn’t it just be the perfect time for a coup-de-tat during an MSM news shut down! Very easy to install that wonderful bunch at FEMA to do some real news work! Necessary federalization…just like the Air Traffic Controllers Strike back when Reagan was El Presidente.

I think the comparison between the CEO’s pay and the average pay of writers is on the mark — maybe the median pay might be more revelatory, but it doesn’t matter. What matters is that the criticism should be focused on top executive pay. There is a tradition going back to the Progressive Era of blaming the ‘corporation’, which is a faceless entity. These guys have faces, and their cash gives them enormous power in the political marketplace. We should name names. That is how a narrative of income redistribution can be constructed. Don’t talk Disney, talk Eisner. The system is set up to benefit them disproportionately. Forget stockholders and workers. They get what’s left over after the cream has been skimmed (and often the whole milk bottle drained).

Steve-AR @ 16

OT..but still Cal. news

Feinstein Faces Dem Censure After Backing Mukasey

HuffPo

Not likely to happen but at least she is getting some heat.

I wanted to say I support Unions, because when my Mom worked for Eastman Kodak, many, many years ago, she would be hit with a wooden ruler if her boss thought she was not working fast enough.

The Ford company was known to rough up workers in the early years.

David W. Bartoo @ 87

Sparkatus @ 62

How much did the person who created the pants you are wearing get paid?

There is definitely value created all along the way. And obviously writers create huge value. Actors would have nothing to do. Stagehands, etc.

With copyright, creative writing is actually pretty well protected, but with many other fields of knowledge creation, the information can’t be kept back. Trying to get actual pay for the value in the information you create is frequently a giant part of the economic problem.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you SHOULD be paid well for what you create, but your arguement is with the very nature of the world and the nature of the capitalist system. People get paid what the market will bear (what their relative power can bring them) not the true value of their product to those who buy it or otherwise receive it.

The statement ‘the very nature of the world’ is ‘over-the-top’ and equivalent to ‘it has ever been thus’ in the realm of reasonable discussion.

That it is ‘the nature of capitalism’ as it is NOW practiced, is true.

To suggest that nothing can be ‘change’ because the ‘world’ or ‘God’ made or makes it that way is not useful to mature discussion; the purpose of such an assertion is to end discussion, not to encourage it. These words may well represent your reasoned conclusions. However, if you wish to engage others in seeking change or even the possibility of change, statements of this nature are neither useful nor helpful.

I’m not saying change can’t or won’t happen or trying to end the discussion. That’s why I separated out nature of the world and nature of capitalism. It seemed a logical problem to me.

This is actually a fascinating conversation (this is not snark).

Sounds like the median comp is 5000 but the mean comp is 200k. This means that at least a couple people are making good money.

Another aspect of the iesue is that there are a lot of people who want to write. So, the supply of writers is large. People are making their own movies. They burn their garage band rhymes to CDs. And somehow the conclusion to be drawn is that the writers are underpaid. I don’t buy that.

In most situations like this, particularly creative work, people care A WHOLE LOT about the quality. They pay a lot for the absolute best and you can’t give the rest away. Thus, the lunchtime pitch noted by Helpless Dancer @77 above.

But this is all slightly off the question of share of earnings from non-broadcast forms of delivery. I think the union should try to get a piece of that…but (unfortunately) none of that will make any difference to the WGA member making $5000 a year. Their challenge is being caught between the long line of unemployed writers and the guys/gals bringing the median up to 200k.

Few are likely to be buying their stuff (through existing channels). The benefit of success in the strike will go to enhance the guys bringing the median up to 200k.

Unless the WGA changes its own way of distributing money and becomes a bit more socialist.

cinnamonape @ 90

Tom Freston received $60 million after getting FIRED? In Severance Pay?
They must have really thought he did a piss poor job to want to get rid of him THAT BAD! But then it raises the question…who hired this incompetant? Should they be fired for their incompetance? Or would they all get $60 million dollar severance packages, too?

Not exactly how most people would describe the situation. He was pushed out of the business he created in favor of what could be termed cronies of the chairman.

I despise corporate america and corporate anything. I try to avoid them, but they are unavoidable.

The impact on the non-writers in the industry is very telling. We live in a society of serfs where everyone is only one or two paychecks away from disaster. Divide and conquer, indeed.

rwcole @ 46

It’s odd that this thing has come to a strike- as I understand it- there’s no real money at stake yet- only the possibility of money. Seems that they could reach and interim agreement until such time as it becomes a real issue- but I guess everyone is worried about “precedent”?

if you watch an entire episdode online (as thousads do every day) at the networks’ websites, you will be forced to watch several commercials that you are unable to fast-forward through. commercials the networks receive money for. the writers’ (and actors & directors) share of this money: 0.

writers are asking: if you make money, we get a share.

Steve-AR @ 16

OT..but still Cal. news

Feinstein Faces Dem Censure After Backing Mukasey

HuffPo

Not likely to happen but at least she is getting some heat.

DiFi is largely immune from more than a handslap…she can’t be recalled and sits in the Senate until her term expires. But she can be made anathema.

And those who would dare to block the censure are not as safely escounced as DiFi. The Democratic Central Committee and County Chairs are all vulnerable to losing their power and positions by election. The rank and file can expel them. Activists within the party can make things very hot and uncomfortable for anyone that supports DiFi And that applies to elected officials as well. They could be recalled.

So their loyalty to DiFi could have a price. And they will need to ask themselves if they want to take the sword for something that is largely a symbolic slap at Feinstein. Or will they respond to the rank-and-file and marginalize Feinstein.

One danger, of course. Feinstein has a large campaign coffer that presumably will be subdivided to her political supporters running for office. I don’t think that she can allocate that to her personal use once she leaves office. So it has to go for political purposes. And she directs it. But you won’t get DiFi’s support unless you are “her friend”. She’s sort of like the bully in the schoolyard.

do-si-do @ 99

Sparkatus @ 39

um, Tom Freston was largely responsible for building MTV from nothing into something over 25 years. Having a large payout when getting pushed out of the company that you built by someone who is a true a**hole, Sumner Redston, is not unreasonable.

Of all the people to throw under the bus on this, Freston isn’t the one.

Thank you for restoring my recently found good opinion of Tom Freston. He did a nice thing for folks with special education kids too. Too complicated to summarize…

Yes, I know the story. Freston fought for public funding of special ed, he didn’t need the $ but the precedent value is big for those who do. He caught a lot of heat for that as well.

Sparkatus @ 105

David W. Bartoo @ 87

The statement ‘the very nature of the world’ is ‘over-the-top’ and equivalent to ‘it has ever been thus’ in the realm of reasonable discussion.

That it is ‘the nature of capitalism’ as it is NOW practiced, is true.

To suggest that nothing can be ‘change’ because the ‘world’ or ‘God’ made or makes it that way is not useful to mature discussion; the purpose of such an assertion is to end discussion, not to encourage it. These words may well represent your reasoned conclusions. However, if you wish to engage others in seeking change or even the possibility of change, statements of this nature are neither useful nor helpful.

I’m not saying change can’t or won’t happen or trying to end the discussion. That’s why I separated out nature of the world and nature of capitalism. It seemed a logical problem to me.

This is actually a fascinating conversation (this is not snark).

Sounds like the median comp is 5000 but the mean comp is 200k. This means that at least a couple people are making good money.

Another aspect of the iesue is that there are a lot of people who want to write. So, the supply of writers is large. People are making their own movies. They burn their garage band rhymes to CDs. And somehow the conclusion to be drawn is that the writers are underpaid. I don’t buy that.

In most situations like this, particularly creative work, people care A WHOLE LOT about the quality. They pay a lot for the absolute best and you can’t give the rest away. Thus, the lunchtime pitch noted by Helpless Dancer @77 above.

But this is all slightly off the question of share of earnings from non-broadcast forms of delivery. I think the union should try to get a piece of that…but (unfortunately) none of that will make any difference to the WGA member making $5000 a year. Their challenge is being caught between the long line of unemployed writers and the guys/gals bringing the median up to 200k.

Few are likely to be buying their stuff (through existing channels). The benefit of success in the strike will go to enhance the guys bringing the median up to 200k.

Unless the WGA changes its own way of distributing money and becomes a bit more socialist.

Sparkatus;

As we appear to be in the ‘age’ of the ‘Divine Right of Money’ when money is ALL that matters and how you ‘get’ it, does not, we must be careful in the assumptions that we share. Very careful definition of terminology is absolutely necessary, and implications which allow certain ‘notions’ to go unchallenged are very much part of the ‘problem’. Whenever assertions are made that ‘God’s unseen hand guides the market’ or that the Puritan ‘ethic’ is ‘evidence’ of His handiwork and ‘favor’ we are in the realm of ‘magical’ thinking and extolling the virtue of collecting rabbit holes.

Each and every culture claims to have a handle on ‘how the world works’, none do.

I have found your reasoning, over time, to be considered and often very agreeable, so you will forgive me for underscoring what is often a sore point, as well as a point of departure in many discussions.

Thanks for hearing AND listening. I value your comments and perspective. David

OK bosses make more than serfs. What else is new? and yes, bosses like to increase the differential for exercise, mean pleasure or the desire to drive a half million dollar automobile. The answer someone says is solidarity. Don’t think so. Hasn’t worked so far. Don’t see the writers winning this one. Hope I’m wrong. We’ll see.

eCAHNomics @ 21

Bargain Countertenor @ 17

eCAHN…

re: Wikipedia

Actually, I figured you probably knew that caveat lector applied to wikipedia. Mrs BC teaches freshman (college) comp, and I can tell from the screams when another student has turned in a paper (nearly) sole-sourced to wikipedia.

But I was also sure that some of our listers probably don’t know that wiki has to be used very carefully for critical work.

BC

Yes, I can certainly see how wiki would drive a teacher insane. Did you see my final comment about watching wiki as an example of an unregulated market, which (as with the rest of life) turns out needs some regulation to work better. I understand that wiki now has some oversight, but am not familiar enuf to know how much that’s helped.

Yes, I saw it. I think it’s an interesting model. In my own field (statistics), wiki is reasonably reliable — I use as my on-line reference table for facts about probability distributions. But that’s an area where I am something of an expert and I can (usually) recognize when something’s FUBAR.

I’m not sure how much the oversight has helped, either. I pretty much don’t look at wiki outside my areas of expertise unless the article is recommended by an expert I know.

BC

Sandman@97

The Dues for the WGA are based on your income. The WGA keeps track of the residuals they send you, then send out a quarterly “bill” based on a percentage of that. If you make any other money they don’t know about, you are to report that on a form they send you, and your dues bill is adjusted. Sometimes the quarterly dues are very large, sometimes almost nothing, depending on the residuals you got that quarter. This also means that your income stream is sometimes large and sometimes small, and you can never tell what your income for the year will be. This makes living below your means a very necessary thing, and as someone who captains my household’s ship this way, it can make for anxious moments.

Ed Kunin @ 112

OK bosses make more than serfs. What else is new? and yes, bosses like to increase the differential for exercise, mean pleasure or the desire to drive a half million dollar automobile. The answer someone says is solidarity. Don’t think so. Hasn’t worked so far. Don’t see the writers winning this one. Hope I’m wrong. We’ll see.

I can’t see how they wouldn’t actually. Where are the networks gonna get scabs that are creative enough to jump right in and write scripts and comedic material appropriate to the programs on the air. Imagine if they bring people in and the jokes are shite and scripts insipid…the audiences would flee. And imagine the impact on the careers of Comedians and Actors. Would they tolerate such bad material…or would the walk out in sympathy? Advertising dollars would plummet.

I don’t know if they could run syndicated re-runs, though.

But they really couldn’t succeed by using scabs, which is the typical strike busting method.

itwasntme @ 114

Sandman@97

The Dues for the WGA are based on your income. The WGA keeps track of the residuals they send you, then send out a quarterly “bill” based on a percentage of that. If you make any other money they don’t know about, you are to report that on a form they send you, and your dues bill is adjusted. Sometimes the quarterly dues are very large, sometimes almost nothing, depending on the residuals you got that quarter. This also means that your income stream is sometimes large and sometimes small, and you can never tell what your income for the year will be. This makes living below your means a very necessary thing, and as someone who captains my household’s ship this way, it can make for anxious moments.

I wanted to say “Thank You”, for the explanation, much better than anything in the media. Sort of like being a Salesman, some good quarters, some bad quarters. Best of Luck and Skill to you.

You’re welcome, and salesman anology is a good one. You don’t make any money if you don’t sell something. Remeber, too, that writing is an art. Making money at any art is difficult.

I know a lot a TV shows and movies are completely stupid and disgust us all. But there is a lot of wonderful, enlightening work done and out there for all of us to love. Think Cobert, South Park, and your favorite movie. There will always be a place for a good storyteller, and that person should get a share of the money from the people who enjoy listening to it.

readerOfTeaLeaves @ 69

Regarding your speculation re motives

I assume that part of this brouhaha reflects genuine terror among very driven, affluent interests that happen to be on the wrong demographic, technical, economic, and sociological side of the issue.

I repeat from an earlier post:

can anyone comment on the possible political motivations behind the WGA strike, which conveniently takes out all late night TV but leaves O’Reilly and the rest of the Fox propaganda machine in place?

I’m just wondering if the aforesaid “affluent interests” also happen to be on the wrong end of the political spectrum.

cinnamonape @ 116

But they really couldn’t succeed by using scabs, which is the typical strike busting method.

Most scabs come not from the outside but are union members who for various reasons, mostly they need the money, cross the line. In a union where the median income is $5,000, the temptation to improve on that will be strong. Besides writers get less important. Not only do reality shows take minimal writing, movies and tv get more visual. People watch frame after frame of action with little dialogue. The bosses don’t care about content. They would broadcast test patterns if advertisers continue to buy time.

Labor union members learn the hard way they do not have a monopoly on skill. The formerly highly touted American worker is replaced by Asian farmers who in two weeks learn how to make hard drives. Professional writers don’t have a monopoly on creativity. Youtube demonstrates so-called ordinary people are extremely creative.

Writers think they are different from automobile workers who circumstances have battered. I disagree. They are up against a stacked deck. The bosses, as usual, have the high cards.

My understanding is that news writers are in a different union. There is a rumor that they are going to vote whether to support the WGAWandE and go out also. In theory, no member of any union should work in support of the WGA strike, in a perfect world. This strike has gotten a lot of support from SAG screen actors, because they are likewise being screwed on the internet revenues issue, and their contract comes up I believe next spring. The WGA is riding point for a lot of unions on the issue of compensation for podcasts and webcasts.

The issue is pretty simple: the large corporations are making money on the work of the writers (and others) by new methods of distribution, and are refusing to share any of those profit to those who, in all other media forms of distribution, are currently getting a cut. In other words, the corporations are claiming that somehow distribution on web/pod doesn’t come under the term “distribution” as currently defined in the contracts, just because those old contracts don’t specifically say “web/podcase” in them.

Why we fight.

I agree there is a lot of wonderful talent on the web, simply creative people doing their thing. But they aren’t getting paid for any of it, and you are enjoying it. That’s fine if that’s what they want to do. And some of these folks could walk into the studios and go ahead and write/create for them, no problem. But they might want to get paid if they are hired to do that. Then they come up against the problem WGA writers have. They want a fair cut. They may not feel it’s fair to get $500 a week for six months, then watch as the corporations make many millions of dollars on what they have thought up. It becomes clear that maybe they shoud make a bit more money than the $500 they thought was great in the beginning. Also, in addition to being paid fairly for thier work, they might like to have a health plan, and a pension plan. They are out of luck if they don’t belong to the Guild. And the Guild will never let them in if they do work for the studios as writers during a strike. So this strike effects wanna-bes as well as WGA writers.

I do think the strike has the potential to become very very ugly, and terribly destructive to all the non-writer craftspeople who depend on steady production schedules to make their mortgage payments, send their kids to college, etc. I assume the producers are counting on that. I also assume that the producers have hired the usual gang of plug-ugly union-busting consultants, because make no mistake about it, that’s exactly what’s at stake here: the legitimacy of the unions to negotiate on behalf of ANYONE.

I doubt there are enough self-hating scab writers who actually have the chops to write network-level TV, who could handle the workload…and all the showrunners are on strike in any case. But as time goes on, if we’re talking months for instance, it’s a scary proposition. I personally think the writers will win, because they HAVE to, and because they’re right. But we’ll see.

I worry too about other workers that this strike is effecting. Lots of other people we know will be/are suffering because of it. It is to be hoped that the producers will think about those people also. But they don’t appear to care about any of the people in the industry, just their own pockets.

The producers enjoy the fact that they make the most money and have the most “stuff”. Any meeting you take these days (pre strike) had the obligatory mention of second houses in France, or vacation island time-share ownership, or your evening with Prince Charles at the annual Prince’s Trust dinner. Really. It’s about as subtle as the biggest dog getting to hump everyone in the room.

Johnnywheaker @ 119

readerOfTeaLeaves @ 69

Regarding your speculation re motives

I assume that part of this brouhaha reflects genuine terror among very driven, affluent interests that happen to be on the wrong demographic, technical, economic, and sociological side of the issue.

I repeat from an earlier post:

can anyone comment on the possible political motivations behind the WGA strike, which conveniently takes out all late night TV but leaves O’Reilly and the rest of the Fox propaganda machine in place?

I’m just wondering if the aforesaid “affluent interests” also happen to be on the wrong end of the political spectrum.

Your point about O’Reilly hadn’t crossed my mind.

As for O’Reilly, the lucrative demographic has moved beyond him, b/c he can’t shed light on $100/barrel oil, and he can’t shed light on banks writing down billions in subprime loans. If I owned Netflix or online gaming systems, I’d be thrilled that O’Reilly is the only guy on teevee — it’s a great opportunity for other media to outfox FauxNewz.

But writers should get residuals; if the economy melts down on a huge scale, the whole topic of ‘economic justice’ is simply going to be come more resonant. Can’t happen too soon, IMHO.

Ed Kunin @ 120

…Not only do reality shows take minimal writing, movies and tv get more visual. People watch frame after frame of action with little dialogue. The bosses don’t care about content. They would broadcast test patterns if advertisers continue to buy time.

Labor union members learn the hard way they do not have a monopoly on skill. The formerly highly touted American worker is replaced by Asian farmers who in two weeks learn how to make hard drives. Professional writers don’t have a monopoly on creativity. Youtube demonstrates so-called ordinary people are extremely creative.

Writers think they are different from automobile workers who circumstances have battered. I disagree. They are up against a stacked deck. The bosses, as usual, have the high cards.

Your analogy is flawed. People working in factories making hard drives do not CREATE something out of thin air. They participate in a rationalized, step-by-step process. That’s the nature of that particular beast. Their employment situation is not equivilent to writers — the factory workers didn’t invent the machine; they only work in it.

But it’s a very different beast from watching someone create a complex, original thing — whether it’s an engineer inventing something that is patented, or a writer.

Equating working on any assembly line to working in ‘knowledge fields’ is flawed. Assembly lines do not require investing in extended education. Information-based jobs require a lot of training and practice. Writers are information workers, but with a twist; like engineers, they create and invent.

An engineer who gains patent protection gets a ‘residual’ every time that product is used. Adobe still gets ‘residuals’ from Microsoft for every copy of Word that contains PDF code. Everywhere you look, people are paid for what they invent and create.

Where that doesn’t occur, economies lose their vitality.
If writers originate the ‘product’, then they should be paid throughout the lifecycle of the ‘product’ — whether it’s a movie, a tv show, or a video game plot.

The writers seem to simply be asking for fair treatment. The ‘managerial class’ of Hollywood moguls were foolish to let things escalate to this point.

Don’t misunderstand. I think the writers should win; that they deserve to win; and that what they want is not unreasonable. That said, I’m not sure if it’s a long strike, which it seems it will be, that it will work out in the sense of the writers getting what they want. My analogy may not be exactly appropriate, but I don’t think the writers are as irreplaceable as they think

There have been plenty of instances of strikes which end up with a picket line everyone ignores while business goes on more or less as usual.

Ed, I agree that writers are replaceable. And that’s fine. Except that the replacment writers will find they face the same difficulties as the current writers when they get there. See my post at 122.

Also, for your own edification, I’d like to propose this: pretend you are a writer on your favorite show. Write a script for that show in two weeks. Then write another one in two weeks, and so on for 13 shows. It’s not as easy as it appears when you read the script how much work and experience goes into it.

TeaLeaves@126, I think you’ve said that very well. Thanks for the props.

Not to beat a dead horse he said picking up a stick, I concede sometimes a strike must be called or what’s a union for, but unfortunately unions, no matter how right or justified, do not always win. I don’t see that the writers had an alternative, but I fear for them. Studio heads are not imbeciles. They most likely have something up their sleeves.

As for the difficulties of writing, I wrote a book (philosophy) over many years presenting what I believe is an original theory of human behavior. Writing is hard and there is no guarantee of success. I cannot get an agent let alone a publisher.

Christy in a post “Shaping the Facts” (sorry I don’t know how to insert links) wants to energize voters. If we can organize something to unite the blogs with people registering so we know where they live in order to act locally, we might be able to create an organization that gives real power to the people, something that influences political parties as well as voters, and we might be able to think of something to support the writers-like a boycott or other action to hit the bastards where they live.