Over the last few months we’ve discussed organic foods, the precautionary principle, global warming, the farm bill, and the rivers of tax-subsidized water from Federal projects sluiced onto millions of acres of Big Ag commodity farms – to grow subsidized crops for subidized exports.
America, what a country!
What a countrycide…..
dying at the hands of BigAg and their purchased servants in the Executive Branch and Congress.
The Center For Food Safety’s visionary, accessible 2002 book Fatal Harvest dissects the anatomy of lethal Industrial Ag processes and the homicidal policy choices Big Ag slams into the Body Politic – and the biosphere – to forestall the DT’s of withdrawal from the Treasury’s teat. In this anthology of essays and photojournalism, organic grower Jason McKenny describes the diminishing returns of Industrial Ag:
“The production of…fertilizers cosnumes more energy than any other aspect of the agricultural process. It takes the energy from burning 2,200 tons of coal to produce 5.5 pounds of usable nitrogen….
“This economic model of farming made some sense when we were mining the biological reserves of fertility bound in our soil humus. Now it is a crisis of diminishing returns. In 1980 in the US, the application of a ton of fertilizers resulted in an average yield of 15 to 20 tons of corn. By 1997, this same ton of fertilizer yielded only 5 to 10 tons. Between 1910 and 1983, United States corn yields increased 346 percent while our energy consumption for agriculture increased 810 percent. [snip]
“The biological health of soils has been driven into such an impoverished state at the expense of quick, easy fertility that productivity is now compromised, and fertilizers are less and less effective. [snip]
“The UN Food and Agriculture organization in 1997 declared that Mexico and the United States had “hit the wall” on wheat yields, with no increases shown in 13 years.”
p 242, Fatal Harvest
As we’ve discussed, TFB is kinda like the doggie bag of megacorp subsidies: if someone somewhere can get Federal dollars related to food, the program was scraped off the legislative platter and dumped in TFB. Big War learned to seed Congressional districts across the US with small local contracts for big useless programs, ensuring local advocates for anything Big War’s wholly-owned colonels in Pentagon procurement programs want to fob off on Congress – and us, the people who pay the subsidies.
While our schools and bridges and hospitals literally fall apart, and one quarter of America’s homeless are America’s own veterns.
Now Industrial Food and Big Ag aren’t about to let Big War steal a march on them in the great race for world champion of lethal greed.
Big War merely keeps Congressional districts hostage? Hah! Big Toxic Food and Industrial Ag have reached down and grabbed nearly every frikking public school in America as hostages. And – just to make sure – Big Toxic Crap Food and Industrial Ag grabbed all the poor babies and moms to be.
Hey – it’s that whole compassionate conservatve thing, right?
Where do Big Toxic Crap Food and Big Industrial Ag keep all those moms and babies hostage? After all, even crumbling schools still take up a lot of space.
Why – in The Farm Bill. Where else?
Big Toxic Junk/Ag’s hostages in TFB include “Title IV” – the Nutrition Programs – include food stamps, emergency food assistance, school lunches, Women, Infant and Children Program (WIC) and the Farmers’ Market Nutrition Program. These programs take up nearly half (48.4%) of total TFB spending, and rightly so – they serve the neediest in our society.
The Toxic Junk/Ag megacorps have protected the billions for plutocrats in the TFB by holding Federal Nutrition Programs (and other Federal farm programs that actually help us survive) hostage to the absurdly bloated “Commodity Programs”.
Collectively known as TFB’s “Title I”, the Commodity Programs lavish our tax dollars on a few heavily subidized commodity crops the US exports – enriching Cargill, ADM, and the wealthiest farmers and farm landowners.
The price? Merely a third of TFB.
Well, in 2006, the big five crops in the Commodity Program – corn, cotton, wheat, rice, and soybeans – gobbled up 92% of Title I tax subsidies in the form of 19 billion dollars of direct support payments. And – just the rest of our winner-take-all Federal programs under the Bushies – the big boys at the top get the goodies:
According to the Congressional Research Service, 84 percent of commodity support spending goes to the production of just five crops: corn, cotton, wheat, rice, and soybeans. Half of that money currently goes to just seven states that produce most of those commodities. The richest ten percent of farm-subsidy recipients (many of whom are corporations and absentee landowners who can hardly be classified as “actively engaged ” in growing crops) take in more than two-thirds of those payments.
A few other broad brushstrokes:
* Almost 50 percent of all commodity subsidies went to 5 percent of eligible farmers in 2005.
* Subsidies help the largest farms to acquire the best land and squeeze out smaller growers.
* The growth rate for jobs trailed the national average in nearly two-thirds of counties receiving heavy subsidies between 2000 and 2003, according to a recent report.
Once again – what are those five crops? :
Corn (massive dependence on subsidized fertilizer/pesticides/diesel)
Wheat (massive dependence on subsidized fertilizer/pesticides/diesel)
Cotton (massive dependence on subsidized water/fertilizer/pesticides/diesel)
Rice (massive dependence on subsidized water fertilizer/pesticides/diesel)
Soybeans (massive dependence on subsidized fertilizer/pesticides/diesel)
Where not grown with Federally subsidized water from Federally subsidized taxpayer financed Federal Water Projects (as is the case for rice, cotton, and soy in California’s Sacramento and San Joaquin River Valleys – aka “Central Valley”), wheat, cotton, corn, and soy raised for export are increasingly watered by mining America’s aquifers. The result – using subidized fossil fuels to mine water from ancient aqifers so rapidly the aquifers cannot replenish – so well levels fall, pumping costs rise, and Cargill/ADM/Big Ag grow ever fatter sellig our grandkids’ ground water.
Oh – what powers the vast network of pumps that suck water out of California rivers and onto Big Ag’s subsidized commodity crops?
Taxpayer subidized fossil fuels.
‘Cause our soldiers’ blood – and the global network of US war bases from which they issue forth to die – are the price of Bush/Cheney’s Perpetual War for Diminishing Oil.
The same subsidized oil Industrial Ag burns to make the pesticides and fertilizers and power the tractor that spreads them and the harvester that reaps them and the grain elevators that lift and store them – so they may be exported far away, to the greater glory of the Cargills, the Bosworths, and the price fixing cartel known as ArcherDanielsMidland.
And – at the same time Big Ag is pumping America dry for food exports, the clever greedballs have declared the near-perpetual drought on the Northern Great Plains an “emergency”, adding a whole slew of new megacorp subsidies to the hostage-takers in TFB.
And ensuring a whole river of Federal subsidies to draw down what groundwater still remains to catastophically low levels.
Pity the market’s invisible hand hasn’t learned dowsing…
Every year, Congress is pressed to provide emergency ad hoc disaster aid to farmers and ranchers who have suffered weather damage to crops and livestock. Over the past 21 years (1985-2005), taxpayers have provided $26 billion in emergency agricultural disaster aid to more than two million farm and ranch operations. USDA sent out disaster aid checks every year for the past two decades, with payouts exceeding one billion dollars in 11 of the 21 years…. [snip]
Now the Senate Finance Committee reportedly is considering a permanent trust fund that would set aside $5 billion that could be paid in disaster aid to farmers and ranchers without resort to ad hoc legislation.
….most of this $5 billion would go to just a few states where agricultural disaster “emergencies” are in fact routine, virtually annual occurrences, primarily because of low rainfall. These same states are among the biggest recipients of crop subsidies, conservation aid, and federally subsidized crop insurance claims.
EWG examined the history of disaster aid payments to the 20 states currently represented on the Senate Finance Committee and found that over the past 21 years, those states have collected some $9 billion in ad hoc disaster payments, roughly one-third of the $26 billion total paid nationwide. However, just four states on the committee collected 55 percent of that $9 billion (North Dakota, Kansas, Iowa and Montana). Future disaster aid is expected to follow the same pattern.
[snip]
Indeed, agricultural disaster aid should be thought of as serving two distinct groups of farmers and ranchers. The overwhelming majority rarely receives disaster checks from taxpayers, and the amount of assistance is modest. The second group, the primary source of the political pressure for disaster aid every year, is a small minority of the recipients who are chronically dependent on disaster aid. Over two decades this group has collected ad hoc disaster checks every other year, if not more frequently.
[snip]
But a minority of the recipients are chronic beneficiaries of disaster funds, with some 21,000 of them (about 1 percent of recipients) collecting disaster aid more than 11 years out of 21, amounting to $2.5 billion, or almost 10 percent of the total payments….This small minority of farmers, located in a handful of states, would be the chief beneficiaries of a permanent trust fund for disaster aid because they would be applying for it almost every year.
[snip]
While every state received at least some disaster payments over the period, five states–Texas, South Dakota, North Dakota, Oklahoma and Georgia–account for 67 percent of the chronic beneficiaries who collected disaster funds every other year, or more often, for two decades (Table 2). The heavy concentration of chronic recipients in Texas, South Dakota, North Dakota and Oklahoma simply reflects the difficulty of raising crops and to a lesser degree livestock in a region of perennially low rainfall. It also raises the question of whether taxpayers ought to be obligated to provide a continuous stream of aid when “disaster emergency” is the rule and not the exception.
Uh – Kirk? Your Saturday posts are getting depressing. Could we have a sprinkling of good news?
Hey – how about a big hunk of Farm Bill worth of good news?
In the last few weeks, the Congress has grown a gonad or two (internal or external, take your choice) and seems to be standing up to Big Ag and Big Toxic Crap Food.
Well – OK – some of the Congress.
Three Senate Amendments will help make the Farm Bill a whole lot safer for our children, our nation and the planet.
And they deserve our support.
Ken Cook, president of Environmental Working Group, said the farm bill “will be first and foremost a test of the leadership of the Democratic Party that now controls the Senate. … They have to decide if they’re the party of big agriculture or not.” [snip]
“I think it’s real clear that Boxer and Feinstein are really crucial swing votes,” said Mark Lipson, policy program director for the Organic Farming Research Foundation in Santa Cruz. “It could really come down to them making the difference.“
Faber said environmental groups were targeting Boxer, a longtime environmental advocate who chairs the Environment and Public Works Committee.
“You have a drought in California,” Faber said, noting that some of the state’s subsidized cotton acreage also gets federal water subsidies. “Aren’t you guys going to be voting on new infrastructure to increase access for water?”
Boxer, he said, “ought to be concerned about this. Water is going to be the next crisis in the West. We all see it. So why should we use water to produce a commodity that is in surplus and actually works against our interests? It does not make any sense.”
Call DiFi, Boxer, and your home Senators. Tell them you love your family and you don’t want them poisoned or slow-cooked on a baking planet. Tell them you want to live – and you want them to support three amendements to TFB: The FRESH Act, the Dorgan-Grassley Amendment, and the Brown-Durbin amendment.
The FRESH act: Sen. Harkin and Sen. Lautenberg are co-sponsoring the FRESH alternative to TFB’s Title I Commodity Program scams:
FRESH would massively overhaul farm subsidies that Lugar claims are unfair and assist large farmers at the expense of the whole nation’s agricultural health. Instead of subsidies, the reform bill would provide a federally backed insurance program that would be free for all growers.
“For the first time, each farmer would receive expanded county-based crop insurance policies, that would cover, either, 85-percent of expected crop revenue or yield or 80-percent of a farm’s 5-year average adjusted gross revenue,” said Lugar.
The savings – some estimates say $16 billion worth – would fund, among other things, feeding and conservation programs along with biofuel research.
Dorgan-Grassley limits farm subsidies to a maximum of $250,000 per farmer. If FRESH fails, D-G will help staunch the subsidies bleeding Federal deficit spending into the wealthiest Americans’ pockets.
Brown-Durbin slaps Big Insurance, which currently steals more than 50% of every dollar in Federal crop insurance dollars away from the farmers.
This fight is worth having. As my colleague Mladen Golubić, M.D noted at HuPo:
Wondering what the Farm Bill has to do with sick people? Despite its name, the Farm Bill doesn’t just affect farmers. It’s a colossal piece of legislation that to a large extent determines what foods are grown in America, how much they end up costing, and what we end up eating. In other words, it has a big impact on whether people have easy access to the nutritious foods that will help them prevent diet-related diseases. The Farm Bill’s main influence stems from the enormous subsidies it gives farmers-more than $70 billion between 1995 and 2005 for food production alone. Unfortunately, more than 80 percent of this money goes to producers of sugar, oil, alcohol, meat, dairy, and feed crops. Soy, corn, and other feed crops are mostly used to fatten up cows and other animals that get turned into cheeseburgers and other high-fat, high-cholesterol products.
This subsidy system rewards farmers for growing foods that contribute to high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, and other diet-related diseases I treat every day.
We can do beter – we’re America. Call DiFi and Boxer and your home state Senators – tell them it’s past time for them to help.
Bon Appetit!
[image by Felinux - hunting for prey]
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zed.
zedunoFitzeroo?
I’ll go tell ‘em
DAM!
Oh, Dr…Kirk
is there a typo in your title?
FunnyD
I’d like to see proof of that.
So per Ian, does this qualify as a “negative externality”?
Jane Hamsher @ 6
Yes.
And, part of the problem is a sort of whack-a-mole thingy. When I worked in banking risk management, we’d have these discussions on the relative impacts of “when you recognize revenue.” Similarly with negative externalities, which are often masked both in space and time. “Chickens taking their sweet time and circuitous routes coming home, that sort of thing.
I’m against the act if it contains any of the following:
Any money that supports Monsanto, period.
Anything that supports or perpetuates Monsanto’s evil seed patenting.
Any legislation that says that I have to register with some a**hole registry, every single animal that lives on my property.
Anything that creates more incentive for big AG phony ethanol crop incentives.
If it contains any of that, I oppose such a bill.
What is in the stinkin’ bill??
bobbyg,thanks for your interest.
The quoted calculationis from Fatal Harvest on the cited page of the paperback edition (still massive).
The title – sans photojournalism – is also available as Fatal Harvest Reader.
Pelosi’s been crowing about what a triumph this is for her over the past few months.
Another reason to shitcan her ass…
OT.
Raginggurrl’s got a DK diary up on our Schumer visit. Please stop by and recommend.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/10/16234/203
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 9
OK. But…”cookingi”? Am I missing some cultural reference?
FunnyDiva
Important post – and while I’ve lost all faith in my California senators I will do my best to communicate the utter madness of the nightmarish subsidies. THANK YOU DOCTOR!
LS, so near as I can tell all TFB versions carry the evil microchipping provision – forces small producers and households to register their animals.
I’m concerned that the FRESH act wil lfree up more funds for the globe-cooking ethanol scam. As writte, FB oes that anyway – I’ve been unable to figure FRESH adds or subtracts to net subsidies for ethanol.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 9
I trained in forensic environmental radiation science in Oak Ridge, a domain wherein I had to document and scientifically justify every digit of quantitation during my long tenure in the field. When I see some huge number asserted, my instant reaction is “linky?” That’s all.
What is more important than Mother Earth being able to breathe?
Kirk! Thanks for another great post, tho I have to confess I have not totally digested it.
But, an earlier post of yours, which talked much more about water, the water consumed by crops farmed by big ag was an eye-opener for me.
The Farm Bill: Water – Drink It, Or Export It? Oooh – I Know – Let’s Subsidize Water Exports!
Perhaps you can add a link to this in your current post.
The ethanol scam has pushed this one into overdrive; in addition to increasing air pollution as coal is now becoming the preferred fuel for fermentation and distillation. And the small matter of diverting a food crop.
Calling or writing DiFi is a waste of time. Trust me, I have much experience.
I oppose everything that goes through Congress until impeachment is on the table, and the wars are ended, and legislation is passed that prohibits more wars..it is that simple.
I am now registering as a Contrarian. The Contrarian Party.
I also want a fully independent, thorough and fair, independent investigation of the events leading up to and including the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the financing, the physics, and the financing of those events; including but not limited to the involvement of the ISI of Pakistan.
So there!!!
thanks for catching my error, funnydiva – just my sausage fingers at work. If you refresh, you’ll see the proper
tiltletitle.Jane, as an enviro my chief objection to TFB is the whole edifice couples massive subsidies that drive farmers and agriculture into destructive activites wholly decopled from externalities.
THe subsidized US corn that props up factory hog farms’ balance sheets while they foul groundwater with decades of pollutants is another odious example….
Photo voltaics, wind generators, and desalinization, might be something to consider. Like sooooon.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 14
They can microchip my *ss!!! Nevermind.
cahuenga @ 19
And yet, being on record is essential. Not so much a waste of time for me. Email is cheap.
But I take your point.
My gripe about ethanol is that it can never take the place of oil in terms of fulfilling our energy needs. It pollutes. It adds to global warming via atmospheric carbon loading in both its production and use. And it wastefully depletes soils better used for food production. Other than that, I think it’s fine.
Steve-AR @ 18
Moreover, when they talk about going to “clean hydrogen fuel” the suits downplay the fact that what they wanna do is extract the H2 from hydrocarbon base products — not water!
Slowly broiling to death would not be my first pick as to how to expire.
And seriously does anyone think that Feinstein is going to go against corporate interests ever, anywhere? She will probably not only back the big Agri-businesses but try to grant them immunity.
newtonusr @ 24
newt- that’s an interesting point, about “being on record”. On one hand, I suspect that the emails just get dumped, and thus are not on the record. But, on the other hand… I started thinking… hey, maybe someone could create a site where people posted the emails they had sent, so that the voices of DiFi’s constituents really would be “on the record” somewhere in the public domain.
BobbyG @ 15
show-off![/snark]
Bet you’re also used to evaluating any source cited for a given quantitation!
FunnyDiva
The planet is suffocating. And we are being forced to debate Iran.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
not if this report is correct.
Valley Girl @ 29
The sensation of banging your head against the wall, trying to get through to some of these feckless fools is grating. All the more reason to press them, IMO.
cahuenga @ 19
She was the main person I was thinking of when I read chapter 5 of The End of America…Surveil Ordinary Citizens.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
IIRC, there are six or seven desal plants in operation in CA, producing drinking-quality water at between $2,000 and $5,000 per acre foot. An acre foot roughly sustains two households a year. Beyond the capital expense and huge energy consumption of such facilities, the other major expense is transporting the water to where it needs to be.
selise @ 32
This report sort of tends to induce me to become upset.
Hugh @ 28
I might have to tear up the cushions in the living room and eat the remote when she is brought into my conciousness…Grrrrrrrrrrrr…or pee on the corner of the table or something….dagnabbit…she ticks me off…and…what is with the hair??? Let’s just start with that!!! She is so not in touch…try a groomer DiFi…we pups have to go in for flea/tick treatments periodically…Geeeeesh
BobbyG @ 35
and what happens to all the salt (or whatever it is properly called)?
Hugh @ 25
Ethanol is just another program of tax funded government welfare to Big-Agra. As far as replacing oil..the estimates that I have read go from -5% to plus 5%. With no savings in oil probably the reality.
Oh, dear! Another test for the leadership of the Democratic Party that now controls the Senate.
Somehow, I have a feeling Harry Reid longs for the days he was Minority Leader. These tests are hard work!
BobbyG @ 35
This is America. We can do it. What are the alternatives?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
That’s OK, OKK.
Darth Cheney is editing the NIE on Iran so we won’t have to have a debate! [/snark]
FunnyDiva
Funnydiva2002 @ 30
I have been adversarily audited right down to my rounding algorithms, LOL. Seriously.
Valley Girl @ 29
The last few replies from DiFi’s office made it quite clear that her agenda doesn’t include representing her constituents. But go ahead, knock yourself out.
Bottom line. We better do something.
newtonusr @ 33
But what did you think about the alternative site idea? So that the actual emails are on public record? That would have some problems, as whenever I’ve written emails to congresscritters, there’s no option to send a copy to me.
Thus, if someone says “this is the email I sent” it’s not necessarily verifiable. But, as I said above, I suspect that the emails get dumped, and are NOT public record, at least as I understand the phrase.
BobbyG @ 43
Let’s audit them.
selise @ 38
The brine is yet another externality.
LS @ 37
when do i stop laughing so hard i have tears in my eyes? does the affect wear off after awhile? my cats are wondering what’s happened to me.
TeddySanFran @ 40
The alternative was Daschle. 2 Peas, same pod.
LS @ 47
Which do you prefer? Biased or Banker’s?
;)
How many tons of air pollution gets dumped into the atmosphere everyday due to our wars in Afghanisatan and Iraq?
LS, we all have our own opinions about how our precious leisure time may best be used for political change.
The legislative agenda for the Contrarian party as set forth in your comment appears incompatible with that set forth in the lengthy post.
Thank you for raising the very valid points about microchipping and the ethanol scam.
I thank you also for taking the time to have read the post and offer my (very limiteded) regret that the result and the discussion it may engender does not meet with the Contrarian Party’s stated preferences.
cahuenga @ 44
Have you saved the email responses? (and perhaps the initial email?) I sure would like to see a typical DiFi email response.
Steve-AR @ 39
Ethanol from _corn_, you mean.
IIRC the Canadians are working on using switchgrass as a feedstock. Less resource intensive, not a food crop…
FunnyDiva
Hugh @ 28
LOL
BobbyG @ 51
Heh….as in “audit”….they have no problem listening to us now do they???? Let’s just listen in….she seems to think that is just ducky, now doesn’t she…don’t think that someone somewhere doesn’t know what crappola is going on…
You too Issa!!!
BobbyG @ 43
I’d expect nothing less when you’re chasing radiation!
Bet you’ve been an adversarial auditor your own se’f!
It’s what us science nerdz DO!
We could all be from the “show me” state!
FunnyD
BobbyG @ 48
Ding! Big time.
(PS – thanks fo rthe perfectly valid question on quantification of coal [equivalent] use in nitrogen fixation. I wish I could show thew calcs, and I’ve certainly asked as much of other commetners and posters here.
Good question.)
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 53
LOL
Typical DiFi:
Thank you for writing to me regarding the nomination of Judge Leslie H. Southwick to be a United States Circuit Judge for the Fifth Circuit. I appreciate your taking the time to share your views, and I welcome the opportunity to respond.
The Constitution requires the President to nominate Federal judges by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. As a member of the Senate who also serves on the Judiciary Committee, I take my position with regard to reviewing judicial nominations very seriously.
When I review a nominee, I look to find candidates who have the necessary intellect, analytical skills, and legal experience. In addition, the candidate should be able to demonstrate a commitment to applying the law fairly and impartially. You can be assured that I perform my due diligence with regard to any nominee that comes before the Judiciary Committee.
As you may already know, on August 2, Judge Southwick was voted out of the Judiciary Committee favorably by a vote of 10-9. I voted in favor of sending his nomination to the full Senate. Please know that I carefully considered the concerns you raised. However, after thorough review of Judge Southwick’s record and after a lengthy meeting with him, I decided that he has the qualifications that I mentioned above to be a judge. While he is not the nominee that I would have chosen for this seat, I concluded that his views were not outside the judicial mainstream. He also has an exemplary record of service to our nation, including a one-year tour of combat duty in Iraq, which he volunteered for even though he was already over 50 years of age.
Once again, thank you for your letter. I hope you will continue to keep me informed on matters of importance to you. Best regards.
Sincerely yours,
Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator
And another DiFi:
Thank you for writing to me about domestic electronic surveillance and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). I appreciate you taking the time to write and I welcome the opportunity to respond.
On August 5, 2007, President Bush signed into law the Protect America Act of 2007 (Public Law 110-55), which I voted for in the Senate. This law makes interim changes to FISA designed to close gaps in the nation’s intelligence-gathering capability. It is a temporary change that expires in six months. However, it immediately addresses critical gaps in our intelligence-collection efforts, while preserving a role for FISA court review.
My support for these changes was mainly based on multiple conversations I had with Admiral Mike McConnell, the Director of National Intelligence, prior to the vote. He stressed to me that the intelligence community is deeply concerned that chatter among suspected terrorist networks is up, and that in this period of heightened vulnerability, we must move quickly to give the intelligence community the tools they need to protect America. While I agreed with his assessment, I asked for, and received, a written assurance that these temporary modifications would not infringe on the rights of Americans. I have included a copy of Admiral McConnell’s letter with this correspondence.
The Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, on which I serve, have begun discussing and drafting legislation to replace the law enacted in August. I will make every effort to ensure that new legislation will continue to protect the privacy rights of all Americans without restricting the intelligence community’s ability to protect the nation. This requires allowing for flexible, agile surveillance to gather foreign intelligence information from non-Americans overseas while preventing domestic warrantless spying.
I have been briefed on the operational details of the electronic surveillance program known publicly as the Terrorist Surveillance Program and investigated its legality. From the beginning, I have argued that the program could and should be conducted under FISA Court supervision and full congressional oversight. It is my hope that this will be the final result of legislation.
Again, thank you for writing. I hope you will continue to write on matters of importance to you. If you have additional comments or question, please feel free to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841. Best regards
Kirk perfect your brilliant.
But are you smatter than a Mexican?
Divide any Prime number by 3 the end result should be a repeating decimal of .333 the holy number or .666 the number of the beast given these constraits on Primes is it possible to predict another Prime Number?
If I am wrong on this step I’m wrong on everything this is a test of the group mind on norelated things!
This damm problem keeps me awake at night! Solve it and let me sleep! Although Jane might not like me commening less at night. Your choice can you or your readers do it?
Can the group mind function like a super computer?
Kirk, if the Age of Consumerism were to end, what would likely take its place?
You so rock Kirk!!!
DiFi and Pelosi wearing latex gloves and holding money
vg — ygm
Valley Girl @ 66
That is funnY!!!
How about this. Since America is the recognized world’s largest ingester of fossil fuels and biggest producer of pollution, we shut all non-esentials (yes that means WalMart, McDonalds, Taco Bell, factories, cars, trucks, etc.) down for just one day a week. Like in the old days. OMG. Pandemonium.
i wonder how much corn/wheat/cotton/soybeans/rice would cost w/o the subsidies.
cahuenga- thanks for the copies of the emails.
She is basically saying “thank you for your concern, and btw, f-off because I will do what I damned well please”.
Funnydiva2002 @ 55
The return on energy from switchgrass is quite low. Fertilizer use might be less for it but otherwise it has the same problems as ethanol from corn but would need substantially more acreage for the same output from corn.
LS @ 68
Is it just me or does DiFi look like someone wearing a bad latex mask of DiFi? Like she could reach up and pull off her face to reveal…oh, I don’t know…Lieberman?
TeddySanFran @ 67
omigod!
you should consider posting that.
Here are the options: Do something. Or don’t.
Shorter DiFi:
“Since you’ve decided to bother me, I know what I’m doing, so don’t you worry yourself about it. I voted for Southwick because he’s in the club. Please continue to leave me the fuck alone.”
Sincerely,
Di Fi.
Hugh @ 72
‘K, thanks, Hugh!
FunnyD
Steve-AR @ 39
I’m with you here, Steve-AR (and with your comment last week about the start of the sixth Great Extinction – the Holocene.
I still have hope that cellulosic “fuelstocks from crops that don’t require fertilizer/pesticides arable land may help…but I’m frightened about the efects on soil/land/species conservation and ecosystems.
Go algae! I suspect perhaps microbial production may be a big part of the answer.
Valley Girl @ 71
Exactly. She’s in till 2012, likely not running again and she’s going to generate a nice little nest-egg through her defense contractor husband in the mean time.
Harper’s had a great article on the oil/food link a few years back. Now we are also making plastic containers out of corn, biodegradable, but is that a good trade-off?
And there is also the issue of how much energy is used to move the food from farm to factory to table. . .
wow, hugh – just saw your answers. Yikes.
Valley Girl @ 71
That is, unless the intern pressed the “off-topic” button on the email-response system. Which is particularly irritating after the time taken to cool down, compose, re-write, and send.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 78
Or could we just go methane from, say, big manure piles?
FunnyD
Edited for clarity
bg @ 80
great point, bg. Does anyone here know the avg food miles travelled by Americans’ meals?
I’m sorry. How the hell can you patent a seed. I am stuck there. It does not sit well with me in any shape or form, nor does giving tax money to anyone in the world for that purpose or who participate in it.
That has me stuck at Stop.
The biggest shiniest object ever is the middle east conflict. “Look! Over there! Crazy brown people who want to keep our oil!”
The real problem is our dying planet. We know it. They know it. They are culling the perceived weak one way or another. They don’t get how vulnerable they are. Fuckery. Fuckery from the rebugs and the dems.
“Call DiFi” I am a little pessimistic about her ability to help anyone but the powerful. But I will call or email all of my senators here in Cali.
Great post Kirk. Thank you.
Lea (no uh) @ 73
Aghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
TeddySanFran @ 82
Teddy- did you quote the correct comment on that? I was thinking about the total disconnect between the email topic and the response.
Things Come Undone @ 63
Hey TCU—it was great meeting you earlier today. If we hadn’t, the mods might have misunderstood your ethnic reference. :>)
For a little laugh, a letter to the editor in Arkansas about a conspiracy involving global warming and daylight savings time:
http://daylight-saving-conspiracy.istheshit.net/
radiofreewill @ 64
Community.
Pardon my barnyard manners…nice post Kirk. Always a pleasure seeing you on the front page.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
Blackwater would drag us out of our homes to go shopping.
On the internet, no one knows you’re a dog.
Or a gay.
Or a Mexican.
A happy thing. I saw a sign at the site of a weekend FarmersMarket in Harlem the other saying that they take food stamps. All of the farmers are local (few hours drive) and many are organic. This is what programs like food stamps should be encouraging: healthy food for low-income families, supporting sustainable, small scale agriculture. Is this NYC innovation or national?
Do you think a low tech action might help? Say as in stopping the destruction of the rain forests.
selise @ 70
An interesting question. I don’t follow closely these markets. Some subsidies are necessary for market stability. But for some crops like cotton, sugar, and perhaps rice what would happen would be a decline in domestic production offset by imports because these commodities are cheaper on the world market.
Valley Girl @ 29
That’s a really cool idea. Diane Feinstein (or whomever) cc: FDL or whatever…cahuenga @ 44
You mean like this:
Thank you for writing to me about domestic electronic surveillance and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). I appreciate you taking the time to write and I welcome the opportunity to respond.
The Senate has been working this fall to write legislation amending FISA after the passage of the Protect America Act of 2007 (Public Law 110-55) on August 5, 2007. The Senate Intelligence Committee passed a bill on October 18, by a vote of 13-2, that substantially strengthens the role of the FISA Court in approving the procedures governing surveillance. This legislation also required, for the first time ever, that there be court review any time a U.S. citizen is targeted for surveillance anywhere in the world. I believe these two measures significantly strengthen the privacy protections in FISA.
I have worked very hard to ensure that this bill will contain strong language on exclusivity – making explicit that this and all future Administrations are required by law to obey FISA any time the government is acquiring the communications of U.S. citizens for foreign intelligence purposes. I described the importance of this provision in the additional views I wrote on the Intelligence Committee bill, which are attached to this letter.
Again, thank you for writing. I hope you will continue to write on matters of importance to you. If you have additional comments or question, please feel free to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841. Best regards.
ADDITIONAL VIEWS OF SENATORS FEINSTEIN, SNOWE, AND HAGEL
Chairman Rockefeller and Vice Chairman Bond are to be commended for producing a bipartisan bill that the Director of National Intelligence and Department of Justice support. They and their staff have worked together to produce this bill. It is a signal accomplishment, and we commend them.
We believe this legislation is a strong bipartisan bill that will next be reviewed by the Senate Judiciary Committee. We hope that the bill can be further improved, particularly with respect to the issue of FISA’s exclusivity, as discussed below.
IMPROVEMENTS IN THIS LEGISLATION
The Committee’s bill makes necessary improvements to current law, the Protect America Act that was enacted in August.
Notably, for the first time ever, this legislation would require court review any time the Intelligence Community targets a U.S. citizen for surveillance, regardless of location. Under present law and regulation, the Attorney General can approve surveillance of Americans outside of the country with no judicial review.
This legislation puts the central question before the FISA Court: whether there is probable cause to believe that a U.S. person is an agent of a foreign power. This is a determination that FISA Court judges have made in thousands of instances since 1978, and one to which it is well suited.
In addition, this bill:
?Greatly increases the role of the FISA Court in conducting up-front review and approvals of the targeting and minimization of communications;
?Corrects the concern arising from the Protect America Act that surveillance information could be used in an overly broad manner. Instead, this bill uses FISA’s existing limitations on use:
oDisseminated information must be minimized;
oInformation can only be shared only for appropriate intelligence and law enforcement purposes; and
oInadvertently collected intelligence must be destroyed;
? “Streamlines” the FISA application and order process in order to reduce the pending application backlog and the significant amount of time it takes to write and review and application. Specifically, the bill:
oAllows the government to present a summary, rather than a full description, of how the surveillance will be effected and what intelligence is sought; and
oExtends the existing FISA “emergency period” from three to seven days during which surveillance may be conducted under the Attorney General’s direction prior to a Court order being obtained;
?Provides for strong internal and external oversight by:
oRequiring the Intelligence Community to conduct an annual review of whether new surveillance authorities are being properly applied;
oRequiring the Attorney General to provide detailed semi-annual reports to the Senate and House Intelligence and Judiciary committees concerning collections authorized in the bill — including instances of non-compliance; and
oAuthorizing the Inspectors General of the Department of Justice and elements of the Intelligence Community to conduct independent reviews of agency compliance with the court-approved acquisition and minimization procedures.
?Clearly prohibits warrantless surveillance against persons inside the United States.
Legislation amending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, and the Protect America Act that was passed in August of this year, will only succeed if it is bipartisan. In this area, it is our belief that any partisan bill will not pass.
That outcome is likely to result in one of two unacceptable options:
?A rushed process to extend the Protect America Act, which contains fewer statutory protections of privacy rights than the Committee’s bill, or
?A lapse in legislation, which will prevent the Intelligence Community from conducting much-needed surveillance on non-United States citizens outside of the country.
Clearly, passing meaningful reforms should be a top priority of the U.S. Congress.
EXCLUSIVITY OF FISA
The legislation includes language on the exclusivity of FISA that requires further examination. Section 102 of the Intelligence Committee bill states that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and relevant portions of Title 18 of the U.S. Code are the “exclusive means” by which “electronic surveillance” may be conducted.
The definition of the term “electronic surveillance,” however, was written in 1978 and has been the subject of exemptions and limitations since then.
It is essential that the Committee determine whether there are any intelligence techniques that fall within this legislation’s scope for which the Executive Branch may not follow the bill’s procedures. This is a necessarily classified topic, but we intend to conduct careful review of these techniques before this legislation is enacted.
It is our view that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, as amended, should be the only legal way of acquiring the communications of people inside the United States, and U.S. persons outside the United States in certain circumstances, for foreign intelligence purposes.
There is a history to this provision that makes a strong congressional re-affirmation even more important.
The legislative history from when FISA was originally enacted in 1978 is quite clear. It states:
[d]espite any inherent power of the President to authorize warrantless electronic surveillance in the absence of legislation, by this bill and chapter 119 of title 18, Congress will have legislated with regard to electronic surveillance in the United States, that legislation with its procedures and safeguards prohibit the President, notwithstanding any inherent powers, from violating the terms of that legislation. (emphasis added)
The legislative history continued by describing the Supreme Court’s decision in the Keith case, in which the Court ruled that at that time, Congress hadn’t ruled in this field and “simply left the presidential powers where it found them.” But at this point, the legislative history turns. It said:
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, however, does not simply leave Presidential powers where it finds them. To the contrary, this bill would substitute a clear legislative authorization pursuant to statutory, not constitutional, standards. (emphasis added)
This was the statement accompanying H.R. 7138 as it passed the 95th Congress. It is clear that Congress enacted the 1978 legislation with the specific intent that it would be the only authority under which foreign intelligence could be obtained from electronic surveillance.
It is also clear that President Carter was aware of this intent when he signed the bill into law. President Carter’s signing statement noted that:
The bill requires, for the first time, a prior judicial warrant for all electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence or counterintelligence purposes in the United States in which communications of U.S. persons might be intercepted. It clarifies the Executive’s authority to gather foreign intelligence by electronic surveillance in the United States. It will remove any doubt about the legality of those surveillances which are conducted to protect our country against espionage and international terrorism.. (emphasis in original)
This intent, and FISA practice for more than 20 years, was cast in doubt after September 11, 2001. At that time, the Executive Branch concluded that it was not bound by FISA’s procedures, and proceeded with the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) without requesting amendments to FISA.
As explained in the Department of Justice’s 2006 White Paper on the legality of the TSP, the Administration cited the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) against al Qaeda and its supporters as an alternative authority. The Department pointed to language in FISA that it was exclusive except as authorized by other statute.
Congress intended for the “other statute” to be the laws governing criminal wiretaps, not a broad and undefined exception.
We do not believe that the AUMF provided this authorization. We have seen no evidence that Congress intended the AUMF to authorize a widespread effort to collect the content of Americans’ phone and email communications, nor does the AUMF refer to the subject.
Furthermore, FISA already contained a provision that clearly governed surveillance actions in a wartime situation – a 15-day authorization for warrantless surveillance following a declaration of war. So this was not an uncontemplated question following September 11 and the passage of the AUMF.
More troubling, however, is the Administration’s claim that the Constitution would not allow FISA to limit the President’s ability to conduct surveillance and other activities covered by that legislation in any way he sees fit. The Department of Justice argues that Congress has not, and cannot, so limit the Executive’s power.
For these reasons, we continue to believe that Congress must write strong language to ensure that FISA is the exclusive means that the Intelligence Community may intercept, analyze, and disseminate the phone and electronic communications of any American for intelligence purposes.
We will work to strengthen the exclusivity language as the bill progresses.
Achieving the balance between necessary intelligence collection and the protection of Americans’ privacy rights are perhaps nowhere as difficult as in the areas surrounding FISA. It is not a field in which partisan politics should play a part. Nor is it one where the Congress and the President should be in conflict.
We thank again Chairman Rockefeller and Vice Chairman Bond for their work on this legislation. It is a big step forward.
Dianne Feinstein
Olympia J. Snowe
Chuck Hagel
Community…it comes down to that.
Cellulosic ethanol production is the “holy grail”..converting corn stalks and other agri “waste” to ethanol. As I understand the problem the stumbling block is the bio-engineering of the micro-organisms to do the “Chemistry”. The thought of cellulose eating, bio-engineered bacteria, make me a little nervous. (This type of speculation has removed me so quickly from my knowledge base..that it gave me a nose bleed *g*)
It all comes down to “What’s happening in your neck of the woods”….really.
Off subject
CSpan is broadcasting the Iowa Jefferson Jackson dinner. Edwards is up first. He’s on fire.
radiofreewill @ 64
Well, that depends on the glidepath – a controlled landing could give us the Age of Community.
(a crash landing is pretty dismal)
When 70% of what passes for America’s economy is consumer demand, we may see a whole of folks following the path OK describes: voluntarily curbing consumption.
With 4% of the global poulation using 25% of the globe’s fossil fuel, we’ve got plenty of room to shed consumption.
Ceasing to buy (or drive to look at) useless crap may be one part of our future.
Cultivating relationships with our neighbors and communities may be one way we fill that time.
That’s what humans did until the middle of the last century – we seem to have been fairly proficient, and perhaps should give it another try.
Beat the hell out of working harder to buy more crap and cooking the planet to do both.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
Loo Hoo – do you have a link to the above piece? Thanks!
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 104
Does that mean I cannot buy a new sofa? :P
Loo Hoo- well, perhaps we need to recruit someone who is willing to start a blog or site that will post all of the DiFi responses. I am not a techie. Perhaps others who are have good ideas as to how to do this.
Things Come Undone @ 63
I left an answer for you about this at #188 in the last thread.
LS @ 86
LS,
there’s a lot of time, thought, knowledge, facilities, and effort that goes into developing hybrid seeds and that’s why thay are patentable.
But when your pollen blows into your neighbors field, it’s immoral to think you are entitled to “royalties” on your neighbor’s seed crop.
That’s right Monsanto, I’m talking right at you.
The rummor was when I wen to Collage that grade D meat was for Pubilic schools Collages and Prisons any numbers on how much PG would save the tax payer?
I eat hot peppars for breakfeast.
But Collage food not PBG made me sickI chalenge any GOPer out there to eat against me!
Centro per Cento Mexicano! Baby!
If I got the translation right!
Cast Iron stomaches born of Upton Sinclairs Chi town nightmares The City of the broad shoulders represnts!
If they can eat that Sh@t without geting sick fine I’ll appoligize
Hugh @ 98
not just stability – i’m a big fan of mantaining surge capacity in those things necessary to support life. but not a fan of exporting (aka “dumping”) our subsidized over capacity on other markets…. just wondering how those values might work togther in a constructive way.
marymccurnin @ 106
have you seen the ones made out of cornstalks? sorry, no link, the feeble part of my brain where this came from does not accept links.
Lea (no uh) @ 73
Ha! And he could pull one off to reveal DiFi! Who was it I heard on Air America today that suggested Bush pull up his bottom lip over his head…and swallow?!
Can’t afford to feed the cows, horses, and chickens, because of ethanol and patents.
Can’t grow rice, corn, and other crops…the world over because Monsanto and others might sue you if the DNA matches the DNA of their “patented” crop…that might have migrated into your fields…….WTF???
This is not ok.
Elliott @ 109
Paul Bremmer decreed that no Iraq could save their own seeds after we invaded. Wonder why?
Valley Girl @ 107
vg – you use a mac, no?
great to see you RBG – thanks for your help (and your patience with me!)
Japandrew @ 96
Nationally (Federally) funded – that’s one of the Good Things in Title IV of TFB.
The FRESH Act will send a whole lot more money that way, and help small farmers as wel as the 50% of Americans living within 30 min of a farmers’ market.
In the public menatl health clinic where I’ve been working, my first goal for my patients’ health was getting them away from meds associated with weight gain wherever possible (the worst culprit IMCO).
That’s taken almost two years.
Now we’re onto healthy eating, and every day I’m rying to help someone figure out how to stretch their meager food budget to cover healthy basics and staples.
The Food Stamp program in Farmers’ Markets really helps
LS @ 114
just part of the chorus here, singing “amen”.
marymccurnin @ 94
I am only in my early 30’s, but believe it or not, I remember a time when everything was closed on Sundays(even 95% of gas stations).
I realize that many in America are averse to giving something up. Like our suv’s etc. But if we want to improve the quality of life, like in cleaner air and water for our children, it will take sacrifice. Despite what the politicians would have us think.
RBG @ 90
You didn’t know I was Mexican? That we are Mexicans great at math? I have to represent more! my Father was a Structral Engineer supervisor desigining Nuke plants at Sargent & Lundy!
I’m a 1/4 of his brillance!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
the first thing i’m ready to sacrifice is the iraq war.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 119
Thank you. Your point is well taken. ;0)
selise @ 116
Selise- no, I am part of the dinosaur PC age. Why do you ask?
marymccurnin @ 115
Dummy me…I just heard that today!!! It is in their law…set by Bremer.
People, the world over, who have been supported by rice as a staple of their nutrition…are shackled by stupid patents…that is…nothing short of criminal….IMHO I’m still stuck at fury…it is wrong. Period.
greenwarrior @ 122
I volunteer to give up Cheney.
And then, it will be a sacrifice, but I will give up DiFi. (I love her sooooooo much.)
Community is good.
What does a glide path of any kind look like when the starting point is 300 Million Isolated Individuals watching American Idol?
Won’t they be grouchy?
greenwarrior @ 122
That’s the number one thing to do. We here think.
lahoma
radiofreewill @ 127
Grouchy and horny.
newtonusr @ 105
It’s an email I got from DiFi. I’ll forward it to you.
marymccurnin @ 126
707! I’m still laughing!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
OK, I do believe Americans are capable of making sacrifices, and that some will be needed.
I was busy
finishing upwriting my post and missed Ian’s post and discussion: I look forward to reading them.The corporatists have been in charge for so long we’ve stopped thinking of lethal air and toxic water as options.
When Americans get the clear message they can live better and longer when the vast majority of us spend less, subsidies for the corporatists will go the way of dodo eggs.
First extinction I’d be happy to hear of.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 132
Exactly!!!
Valley Girl @ 107
I don’t know how either, but it does need to be out there.
Please don’t allow the politicians to decide for us what is right and good. Good night for kiddo and me.
lahoma
Bush better hurry along his invasion of Iran.
The Fed can’t hold out much longer.
Look how much FDL has been able to get done. We are a community. Now that we have started to meet in groups around the country maybe we can become more than 0’s and 1’s. Perhaps we are the beginning of a creative glidepath.
good night, Lahoma and OK.
Valley Girl @ 124
if none of the techies volunteered, i was going to suggest some inexpensive and easy to use website software (includes blogging) that even i can use – and therefore could help you set up. it would be much easier if you were on a mac…. but, if you are serious and no one (who really knows what they are doing) volunteers… please feel free to email me, maybe i can find a way to help.
Loo Hoo. @ 134
Well, we need to find an enterprising CAian who is willing to take this on.
Re switchgrass, from the 2007 ASPO (Association for the Study of Peak Oil) conference:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3111
In short, switchgrass is probably not the answer. It has some advantages over corn and some disadvantages (bulk) but overall is similar to it in terms of energy production.
selise @ 138
Thanks Selise! I can think of a few CAians who might be candidates for setting up a blog. Note however, I am not now in CA, so I don’t count for nada if I email DiFi.
Loo Hoo! Ever thought about starting a blog? ;)
wow – thanks for that thorough (and sobering) answer, Hugh.
Kirk- apologies for going OT about DiFi in comments. I hope you will forgive us.
marymccurnin @ 137
Yeah!
Hugh @ 108
A time honored way of looking for primes is the sieve approach. All even numbers are divisible by 2 so 2 is the only even prime number. 3 will remove every third number or if you discount even numbers every sixth number but I digress.
Anyway all numbers from 3 on have the following characteristics. They are divisible by 3, they are a multiple of 3 plus one, or they are a multiple of 3 plus 2. So if you divide by 3. You will have numbers that are perfectly divisible by 3 and have a zero remainder. Numbers which have a remainder of one and so further divided give 1/3. And numbers that have remainder of 2 and further divided give 2/3.
And other than being part of the sieve method this does not lead to a formula to find prime numbers. Ok am I wrong with my idea all primes are divisable by the # 3?
Are any of the results of a Prime # divided by the # 3 resulting in either a # divisable not resulting in an end product of .333 or .666?
And finnaly MY QUESTION can we use this knowledge of the constrain on Primes to predict future Primes?
how about if we gave up the corn production that is used for animal feed?
Valley Girl @ 142
OMG. I wouldn’t know where to begin. I was thinking about asking-and I don’t know who or how-if someone at Calitics would like to take this on.
Loo Hoo. @ 147
Calitics is a great idea! I will contact my contact there. He doesn’t post there very often, but I think he knows the Calitics bloggers.
Hugh @ 98
Actually given the degree of integration of world markets, the effectiveness of futures markets and the commodification of the staple grain crops, i don’t think a case can be made for subsidy.
The arguments for staple subsidies are very old at this point–national security and the preservation of the agricultural way of life, literally, as of 1918. that’s the date at which “parity” existed, and is the foundation of the ag subsidy programs.
As for products like sugar and rice (or, FTM, ethanol) that cannot be produced competitively with world production capability, the land would be taken out of production, or would be converted to specialty, higher margin crops like asparagus and lettuces.
There is no way to justify the massive levels of subsidy in the farm bill–and the damage that is being done by maize monoculture is really extraordinary. It extends across the entire American social landscape, from dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico, to vanishing topsoil, to obesity and ill health of the citizenry.
Do you realize that when you have a standard meal at McDonalds, you’re eating corn all-round. The cheeseburger is made of corn–that’s what the steer and the cow ate, the fries are (usually) fried in corn oil and the coke is sweetened with corn syrup?
See Michael Pollan’s, The Omnivore’s Dilemma
Oh, and thanks to TeddySF, Jane, selise, and the other FDLers who helped push RagingGurrl’s DK diary onto the recommended list.
This is not a top of your head test. This is a think about and be smarter than I ever was test with years on and off to think about test.
An easy method of determining potential Primes numbers gets FDL into the history books.
And proves my hopes about the group mind!
newtonusr, did you get the email?
Hugh @ 141
Hemp is far and away the best base material for the production of ethanol, not including the herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers, and TLC saved into the bargain.
Loo Hoo. @ 152
Not yet, Loo Hoo. Thanks for sending it, though…
Mod can you seperate my comments from Hugh’s please Thank you and I understand if you can’t.
marymcc – I agree with you wholeheartedly, the Lake is a community doing a lot of good across a broad front. I’ve learned a lot from everyone here in the course of the last year!
Thank you, Kirk!
Haven’t been around much lately, but wanted to stop in and share my thoughts about Edward’s appearance on Mahr last night- he was on fire- best I’ve seen him. I’ve got a sneaky feeling that he’s gonna be a contendor..
selise @ 146
It is interesting…corn used to cost (2 years ago) about $4.50 a bag for 50lb. Now, as the feed store guy tells it, because of ethanol growers and diesel, around $8.00 for a 50lb bag. It will cut down on deer hunting, but…to feed other animals…all other animals, including dogs (most dog feed is corn-based), horses, cows, chickens, that feed it prohibitive by cost. Barley is more nutritious actually…watch it. Oats…SOS. I don’t know…If you are a vegetarian…perhaps that is a positive thing. Monsanto/Ethanol…bad…
Solar…good.
Give up animal feed? What the hell would we eat?
I’m not THAT desperate.
Kirk; I see that you and the heavy hitters are in fine form tonight. Excellent post and equally excellent comments. As Oklahoma suggests, THIS is the conversation and debate human beings should be engaged in. If we don’t get this right, all of our ‘games’ are for naught. Bravo to all!
Valley Girl @ 144
VG – no worries!
DiFi and her corporatist party cause the TFB distortions I’m righting about – very much on topic!
Hell, right here in CA, the Lords of the Westlands water district (southern San Joaquin Valley) made a $500 million dollar mess pumping irrigation water wihth heavy metals onto dry soil swith no natural outlet).
Anyone who heard of the Kesterson “wildlife sanctary” mass poioning of birds has heard of this – massive selenium posioning after the irrgation run-off became concentrated through evaporation.
This surprising problem with irrgiation waters carrying high concentrations of dissolved minerals has only been around since the Roman Republic.
Who knew?
WTF does this have to do with DiFi?
Well, after making their half-billion dollar mess on Federal lands, the Lords of the Westlands ssued – of corse – the US taxpayers.
And the Bushies in the Bureau of Reclamiation/DOJ threw the contest, so the Lords of the Westalnds won their suit against the Treasury.
DiFI’s solution?
GIve the Lords of the Westland – slightly over 500 families – 40 billion dollars worth of Federal water, to sell or do with what as they please.
That’s about 80 dollars of water for every dollar of “damages” the Lords claim.
Gee – if I drive over to DiFi’s mansion and make a $1000 mess on the driveway, will DiFI and Blum cut me an $80,000 pay-off?
Nope – I’m not in the corporatist party.
(note to Federal Protective Service – the above is a thought experiment. I drive by her neighborhood most every day – her lawn and her neighbors’ lawns have from nothing t fear from me.
Though from the looks of the lawns, DiFi and her uber-wealthy neighbors have a lot to worry about from the chemicals used to turn those strips of sand emerald green.)
rwcole @ 158
Only that which the seed patents allow you to.
LS @ 157
Before I left Illnois my roomate told me about a new sweet corn growing you could eat off the stalk in Harvard without cooking.
I wonder what the sugar ratio was?
jayackroyd @ 150 -
i was thinking that subsidies would be useful on a world wide and possibly regional scale to create a bit of production cushion in the case of massive crop failure somewhere in the world. food isn’t like wigets… if there is a shortage people die.
but that doesn’t mean the subsidies would go corn… aren’t there other alternatives?
‘course i’m just making this up as i go, so i’m probably full of it…. it’s just that kirk’s post has got me thinking.
Nuclear is going to be used extensively in the years ahead. Has anyone read a good book on the subject? I’m not sure about actual cost including the very expensive capital allocation and clean up–also not sure how much it costs to deal properly with the waste as the french seem to do. Anyone know?
On feeding domesticated animals corn–this is a very crazy thing to do.
The whole idea of domesticating food animals was to convert stuff we don’t eat –grass, bugs, garbage–into stuff we do–milk/meat, eggs/meat, ham. Feeding corn to cattle, chickens and pigs defeats the whole purpose of domestication. And, especially for cattle, it isn’t all that good for them, and doesn’t produce the most nutritionally valuable meat.
Again, see Pollan’s book. He is particularly rhapsodic about the eggs from the chickens that live on the maggots that hatch in the manure of the cows that graze the meadow that is the starting point for the production cycle of a beyond organic farm he visits.
LS @ 158
the cost of thistle seed for my bird feeder is going crazy – the guy at wild birds unlimited told me it because all the seed stock is switching over to oil production.
“writing”, not “righting”.
Wow – i’ve inherited my mom’s capacity for unintended puns.
newtonusr,
What is this?:
Reason: We would love to have gotten this email to xxxx@aim.com.
But, your recipient never logged onto their free AIM Mail account. Please
contact them and let them know that they’re missing out on all the super
features offered by AIM Mail. And by the way, they’re also missing out on your
email. Thanks.
xxxx instead of your email name.
When living in Texas, I had the pleasure of eathing grass fed beef from West Texas…It was GREAT.
Corn is usually used during the last month or so of the animal’s life to put some fat on- but the beef is fine without it.
jayackroyd @ 166
i’m pretty sure that would stop me from eating eggs, at least for a little while.
pollan’s book has been recommended to me by several people. i really should put it on my list.
rwcole @ 164
You might find this article useful:
http://www.theoildrum.com/stor…../3132#more
Again I don’t follow this closely either but I believe the price of uranium has increased considerably in the last year or so. Uranium is a fairly common element on the planet but I don’t know how much is minable.
Iraq had an irragition system too before the Mongols trashed it . The name Fertile Crescent wasn’t in vain
The Eygptaians were the bread basket od the Roman empire. I wonder if river bourne waste choked their grain productvity?
Sustainable agriculture is sustainable its the only choice if we want to keep our Empire.
Loo Hoo. @ 169
n e w t o n u s r
at
a o l
Hugh, Thanks
rwcole @ 159
well, you wouldn’t have to give up mean entirely. but it would require some cutting back.
selise @ 164
Hemp is the only biomass resource capable of making America energy independent.
selise @ 146
selise @ 146
Yes!!!! Get rid of the fricking cows already. They give us heart disease, pollute six ways to Sunday, and are unhappy critters the way they are treated. We could start chicken communities. Bean communities (beeno please) Veggie communities. We could grow pasta trees. We could raise happy healthy bees to pollinate the pasta trees. Yea baby!
LS @ 162
Can’t remember who gave me the link to the Organic Seed Alliance.
Was it you, Kirk?
Hugh @ 172
peak uranium baby!
Things Come Undone @ 162
One time, years ago (30 plus years ago), I met a woman in NYC, who worked in the field of, I dunno, food evaluation or something. She told me that they tested what ingredients were the most “popular” or “tested well” of all ingredients in America. The winner was, coriander. “Cilantro” in its raw form. It was then added into everything…cookies, meat, pre-processed foods, etc., as a flavor enhancer…it was the “miracle” spice or flavoring..that cajoled everyone into eating everything that was eaten….it goes under many other names…but it is coriander. Weird, but true. They found that Americans were addicted to it sort of. Google the derivitives of it….
BTW…I love cilantro mysef (typo intended).
LooHoo, I don’t recall, but I’m so glad you’re sharing that resource here.
Hugh @ 141
Conservation is the #1 for any energy plan. The frustrating thing for me is that everyone seems to have an “agenda” when energy policy is being discussed. There is so much “snake oil” being sold to the public especially with the enthusiasm for renewable. An example is the ethanol scam. No one talks about the “physics”. The number of photons from the sun per sq meter of the Earth. Which is the bottom line for any “renewable”. There is no magic bullet, all energy production has significant negatives. Wind sounds great until you look at the impact of large wind farms..I do like open spaces and migrating birds..on and on.
rwcole @ 165
No, but I do know that it would be best if they’re not built on a fault or downhill from a major dam like San Onofre is…
selise @ 163
Famines are political phenomena, not prodution phenomena. Even during the potato famine, Ireland was exporting wheat.
The reasons to subsidize farm production that are still in play are pretty limited and easily subverted. For example, in france there are subsidies for small holders that really do seem to preserve a production style that might be forced out of business in a free market.
maybe.
But right now, our local farmers are forced to compete against massive corn subsidies. New York dairy farmers who want to use pasture instead of corn are at an economic disadvantage because of corn subsidies. Any use of domestic animals that, as I said above, takes advantage of their getting their food from outside the human food chain, is forced to sell at a premium. That’s crazy. To be using that midwestern alluvial soil to produce corn to feed to cows that would prefer to live on grass makes no sense at all.
And, in general, ag subsidies make sense only in very limited, essentially esthetic ways–like keeping a 4 hectare dairy farm that produces specialty cheese using heirloom cattle–in production. Or producing certain rice varieties in Japan that would be otherwise uneconomic.
One of the great successes of the post war US trade policies has been the possibility of eliminating famine. Autarkies are almost non-existent now–NKorea, maybe MAYBE, Cuba. And crazy places like Zimbabwe.
Mary
Wait! Chickens eat corn too!
Kirk- I googled the info you gave above. Unfortunately the original link to the FresnoBee seems to have vanished, but here is the text LLOYD CARTER: Selenium poisoning is still a threat today
snippet: ~~~Now 25 years later, with hundreds of millions of dollars on studies and research spent, the Department of Interior still has no selenium safety standards for wildlife, although a committee was appointed in 1989 to adopt such standards. Yet the evidence continues to grow that selenium poisoning, caused by farming, mining, coal burning, oil refining and other industrial activities, is occurring all over America.~~~
rwcole @ 165
I think W’s newfound friendship with the Frenchman Sarky has a lot to do with his interest in nookular energy. They seem to have found a solution to the waste problem, by re-using it over and over, right?
The thing about corn: It has the highest total digestible energy (TDE) ration of any grain. That is why it sustains life so well throughout the world.
That is why, if the price is insane, life on earth that depends on it, dies.
rwcole @ 186
Yea but but but
they don’t have to. Do they? They do eat bugs and stuff. Maybe some other kind of seed. Chickens provide too much as a food source to let them go.
Coriander! We could feed them coriander.
I read recently that 90% of the Fertile Crescent is no longer able to produce any food.
There is a current eating practice that suggests we should eat only what is produced within 100 miles of our home. A lot of people are talking about it now as it is about sustainability.
I believe that most food is moved in the range of 1500 miles. . .not sure about that, but I think so.
jayackroyd @ 185
I sure agree about ag subsidies for commodity production.
With 50% of the Continental US occupied by farmland, Federal payments to maintain soil, water, ecosystems, and habitat diversity make sense to me.
In a future post on TFB I’ll get into this in more depth…
But to frame the matter more generally, investing in America’s biological future seems like A Good Thing.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 182
Here’s a good one as well, for people living in apartments with balconies.
marymccurnin @ 189
I vote for coriander, it makes everything taste great!!! Nevermind if it has any nutritional value, of course.
rwcole @ 165
Like it or not, you are right. But again, every one seems to have an “agenda” and it is hard to get real info. I do know that I don’t want a Republican, drowned in a bathtub Government, regulating an expanded nuke power grid.
Loo hoo they do test foods look at artifical vanilla which until I could afford the real stuff turned me off on Vanilla!
But honestly I lovefresh cilantro, I had no idea it was being added to otherfoods foods for flavor
Synethithecs can’t comepete!
selise
Pollan does make that point–that you might not want to show a picture of maggots on the egg carton. But, of course, that is very high protein stuff.
Best eggs I ever had were true free range. (”Free range” in the supermarket isn’t. They don’t have to open the coop’s door to the outside until the chickens are 5 or 6 weeks old. By then, they are habituated, and don’t go outside anyway.) They lived, I’m sure, on grubs and bugs.
I do not recall the truly free range chickens I ate when I was in a remote part of the Sudan as being particularly good or bad–although they were certainly small. But that was before “free range” was an adjective.
LS @ 194
I know! We could rename this site CorianderDogLake.com.
Folks, thanks to all of who shared questions and ideas here – and thanks also for the kind comments about this post.
Every time we talk about these issues, I’m awed by the depth and breadth of knowledge here at the Lake.
We – the progressive majority of America – we really can do this.
But in the meantime, I have to get the dinner ingredients I forgot to get from the farmers’ market this AM.
Bon appetit!
Almost forgot!
Things – I so enjoyed your primes question, and you left me my little math cortex in the dust – but it was fun to wathc you and Hugh sprint with the numbers.
Loo Hoo. @ 183
nuclear waste being radioactive waaaay into the future, the negative externals make it about the worst possible choice for energy. there’s just no place/way safe to store the waste that long. it’s the darth of energy production.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 200
wathc?
jayackroyd @ 185 –
i’m not sure how to address the political problems in order to prevent famine. but if you say it can be done (absent starting a war or something), then i’ll happily give up on thinking subsidies are necessary to prevent episodic starvation.
rwcole @ 157
We don’t receive Mahr with our cable package – do you know if Bill Mahr has a linky archive? tanks – I’m supporting John Edwards since Gore hasn’t jumped in. Thanks.
Great topic.
Another reason I’ve heard to avoid corn crops as a fuel source for our cars: the aquifers, our nation’s underground water resources, will become depleted.
No water, then failed farmlands, decreased food production.
The idea behind subsidies for some staple crops is that whereas you can buy on the world market in any given year if this bankrupts farmers say in the Midwest who have had a bad year (natural events or low prices whatever)they will not be producing the following year. That’s why you need some price supports and/or crop insurance for the staples (corn, wheat, soybeans). You absolutely need them so you create a system that makes sure that you will have sufficient producers to produce them.
Things Come Undone @ 196
Nor did I. My favorite cilantro recipe is as follows. Looks not so appetizing, but once anyone eats it, they will want the recipe.
1 lb. jack cheese, grated
1 large tomato, diced
1 bunch green onion, sliced thin
1 sm. can diced green ortega chiles
1 sm. can chopped black olive
1 bunch cilantro, chopped
mix and when it is time to serve, prepare and stir in (using directions for the dressing) one dry pkg. Good Seasons Italian dressing
Serve with tortilla chips (fresh fried is best)
KIRK~~~ignore this post, please!
That is it. I’m unveiling my Thanksgiving dinner:
Coriander “Turkey”,
Monsanto Corn Cassarole “especiale”,
Monsanto special potatoes, mashed…
Gravy….Chez LS…
Monsantanto, super-duper, authentic cornbread (with authentically patented recipies, copyrighted by somebody…I have no idea who…but I don’t like them already)…oh, yeah…Granny, but I love Granny…nevermind…
Ta, da…dessert…Something great, like…..pumpkin pie with whipped cream…
Other stuff too.
jayackroyd @ 196
Actually, there’s no problem with eating maggots, except for the aesthetic issue. Insects are a good source of protein.
Thers is upstairs with Wingnut crap of the week.(I KNOW you’ve all been waiting!)
LS @ 189
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 200
You I hope can figure it out. I’m not the brighest Mexican! But I know how to pick winners …sleep on it.
Valley Girl @ 209
I believe in trickle down theory–let’s get the Wall Streeters and jet set to eat them first. Gold-encrusted cockroaches, anyone? ;-)
Valley Girl @ 209
thank you so much
newtonusr @ 213
Yes. I experienced that, and I am much better for it. I ingested a fly in my wine….and…and…well…I swallowed it.
The fly was most disturbed I assume.
newspaperbrat @ 204
C&L usually has Maher excerpts, but this one, not yet.
pdaly @ 212
Oh please, don’t ever make me eat cockroaches. But, really maggots can be quite tasty. Long ago I traveled to Thailand with a friend who was a cook book writer. In a restaurant in Chaing Mai, we saw a dish that looked like “cooked maggots Thai style”. We had to go back and forth several times with the server, because he was rather taken aback about our request. They were delicious, if a bit proteinacious to the tongue.
Hugh @ 206
but itsn’t that just the same thing i was saying up thread? that subsidies provide an artificial stimulus for higher levels of production than the “free” market would provide (over the long run)?
selise @ 217
Yes, the free market tends to create cycles of boom and bust. With staple crops this could lead to market induced depressed production and the result would be starvation. So you introduce mechanisms to stabilize critical markets. This creates surpluses in some years but is better than the alternative of seeing people starve in other years.
Hugh @ 218
oh, of course – should have thought of the boom/bust cycle… and those subsidized surpluses could also be used in the case of major crop failure somewhere in the world?
this is where i am probably a conservative – i’m hesitant to make big changes that can negatively affect things like the amount of food available in the world… not saying i reject change… just appreciate a little prudence.
selise @ 203
the point is that subsidies are irrelevant to famines.
Hugh, further down.
The reasons you’re giving for price supports and subsidies are pretty much obsolete. If farmers stop producing corn because they have a bad year, well, that’s not really a big deal in a world with open markets. This is a restatement of the national security argument, and really doesn’t make sense today.
well, i’m going to leave the discussion to hugh and jayackroyd – i probably don’t know enough to even ask reasonsable questions.
selise @ 219
These boom and bust cycles are local, so the threat of famine is pretty much nil in a world market. “market induced depressed production” doesn’t make sense in a world market. Moveover, the idea that a farmer shifting from a maize/soybean rotation to something else doesn’t lead to famine, or a risk to food security.
In practical terms, the problem with corn production since Butz introduced the idea of subsidies to encourage maize production from boundary to boundary has been what to do with all that corn.
So now we eat it as meat, milk, fry our chips in it, sweeten our soda with it, make cellophane from it, and now, put it in our cars.
Oh, and we’ve bumped up calories produced per capita by about 600 per day. See Marion Nestle’s books on that.
It’s arguable that the real reason for the obesity epidemic is corn subsidies.
jayackroyd @ 222 –
oh, even in my ignorance, i wasn’t advocating for our current subsidies – dog forbid! my concern was no subsidies on food production… but as i said above, i’m way out of my depth here…
If say one year most of the corn production in Australia is lost, without supports many of those producers will be lost to the world market. If the the next year, its Argentina, and the next its China, and the next its us, then your world market is gone. That’s why you need stability in grain markets. It’s not about any one year. It’s about across years.
George Bush and those running things while he bicycles have dramatically accelerated unfavorable trends in jobs, the environment, agriculture and global competition. The former American middle class are, or are within a coin toss of being, all Mexicans now.
A la Paul Krugman’s Conscience of a Liberal, that should free us from our inertia and make it easier to do something about it.
[Mod Note; absent a snark tag, it may be wise to be more clear when using racial and ethnic references. Thanks.]
Hugh and jayackroyd, you both teach me so much (and your questions inform us all, selise!).
Hugh, pardon my ignorance, but is it possible to give the broad outlines of farm subsidies which would prevent famine, yet avoid the negative consequences (including carbon production, so much as possible) of the current FB subsidies?
[if this sounds snarky or demanding, please forgive - not intended. trying to cook an blog and hence rushing to find words]
Hugh @ 224
well that is the essence of our disagreement Staple grains are the least susceptible to this kind of problem, because they can be stored year to year. I’m not sure what you’re suggesting will happen to those farmers in australia if there is crop failure (which, by the way, there pretty much isn’t in staple grain production these days). Are you suggesting that they’ll simply stop farming? Then you have to argue that the land would be taken out of production entirely,
Another way of making your argument is that you believe we need to have a global surplus, at all times, in staple grains. That’s obviously a bad idea; it means that produciton levels of other crops are too low–and we end up as we have in the US, using corn for everything from animal feed to plastics.
So, no I don’t get this argument.
And kirk ((I am not a captain, I’m a doctor, dammit) when I say that famine is a political phenomenon rather than an agriicultural phenomenon, what I am saying is that there is always, at time of famine, ample food supplies to feed those in the region of famine–at least that’s been the case since the 18th century or so.
Whether you subsidize or not doesn’t matter. There’s always enough food. Whether to let people starve or not is a political decision;
Victory gardens save your seeds for replanting.
Grow your own mulch and compost leftovers.
I always miss these discussions(stupid schedule),but there needs to be a push to support ANY local growers you can find. And grow your own. Look at heirloom vegetables and farm animals,we need to preserve them.
Inform yourself. Read The Omnivore’s Dilemma,Hope’s Edge,books on small scale farms and CSAs. Form your own food networks(you grow tomatoes,your neighbor grows peas or beans,your sister grows corn and you all share). Learn to preserve food. Stay the hell out of WalMart and other big box stores as much as possible. Visit ethnic grocery stores instead,ask them where their meat comes from. But organic as much as you can,even if it costs more(the cost won’t come down without support from consumers).
Ag subsidies primarily go to the top 1% of corporate farmers. That is the biggest problem with the current program.
In the mid-west, pre ethanol, they refer to subsidies as farming your mailbox, plant a crop and wait for your government check.
The real problem with subsidies is that they are based on “yield per acre” which is a false economy. If you or I were to go into business based on how many widgets we could produce, without concern on who many widgets the world needed, we would all go broke. The real economic gauge is “return per acre” which is how non commodity crop farmers make a living.
But let’s not focus on how much money is paid to farmers since they end up with only a fraction of the money. (with exception of the 1%) The vast majority of the federal dollars go to:
1. The bank that makes loans to the farmer
2. The chemical companies that sell them synthetic fertilizer and pesticides
3. Seed companies that sell the GMO seed that need more chemical and pesticides, read (Monsanto)
4. Farm equipment companies
5. Landlords, most farming is done on leased land.
6. Ag processing companies, ADM – Cargill-etc who are assured a constant supply of low cost farm commodities
The farm bill is really corporate welfare, so do not believe anyone when they talk about the needs of farmers.
What farmers need is affordable crop insurance, to cover catastrophic losses due to the weather.
What the earth needs is Ag based on “return per acre” and organic farming methods.
The current bill has a bone in it for “speciality crop producers” aimed at CA non-commodity farmers. So when you call understand that the CA Senators have to protect the speciality crop provisions.
If you want to know what is in the farm bill coming out of each chamger, the Congressional Research Service has issued a handy report called “Comparison of the House and Senate 2007 Farm Bills” [the Senate version in the report is the Ag Committee’s Chairman’s mark]. It consists of 23 pages of tables comparing the two versions on a number of issues, like direct payments, meat and poultry inspection, bioenergy, and more. The CRS Report in PDF format
The website and newsletter FarmPolicy.com is a great place to keep up with farm bill news.
I am not sure about the accuracy of other statements in this post but the quote from Fatal Harvest at the beginning that implies agricultural productivity per unit of input has declined since 1980 is simply wrong. A set of tables of fertilizer use at the Economic Research Service of the USDA http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FertilizerUse/ shows that fertilizer (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) use per acre of corn has been remarkably constant since 1980. A graph of corn yields at http://www.nass.usda.gov/Chart…..ornyld.asp shows that yields over the same period have increased from about 100 bu/acre to 150 bu/acre. US agriculture over the last 30 years has shown steadily increasing, not decreasing, productivity per unit input (Productivity Growth in U.S. Agriculture).
US agricultural policy is a lot more complex than this post would lead us to believe. Demonizing “big ag” may be popular but not useful and I wonder if there really is such a thing. Agriculture as an industry has some big players, but it is not dominated by them. Nobody, including Monsanto, is cramming things down producer’s (farmers) throats. By and large, producers are responding to market forces. Consumers want cheap food and producers need to make a profit. A good bit of farm policy is driven by the need to keep commodity prices stable and by the desire to not drive marginal producers out of business, which would increasingly concentrate agricultural production in fewer hands.
Peter,
The data from USDA is based on recommended rates not actual applications rates. The main reason for the increase in productivity is mechanization. Better tractors that plant more efficently, the use of satalite technology to show weak spots in a field and acturately guide harvestors. Chemicals have nothing to do increased productivity however the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides in the mid-west are the primary source for the pollution of the Gulf of Mexico. The Feds have a name for it is “Gulf Hypoxia”, it’s the largest dead zone in US waters.
But your claim that Big Ag might not exist is absurd. If you doubt the existence of big Ag just look at the Ag companies listed on the stock exchange.
Starting with the Regan administration, which unilaterally called the loans in millions of small and midsized farmers in the 80’s, the policies of Washington have driven marginal farmers out of business. The large corporate farmers became bigger as did their corporate welfare.
In 1999 I went to the EU as part of a USDA program to promote organic farming. I gave a speech that talked about the concerns of GMO’s. I found myself in the office the US Ag Attache with in minutes. Was told that I could NOT talk about GMO’s again. Since I was on a USDA junket, I would be sent back to the US if I did not change my presentation. That is perfect example how Monsanto owns the USDA. Farmers listen to USDA Ag extension agents and they follow the guidelines set by Washington. So yes, Monsanto does cram their products down the throats farmers and US citizens.
I suggest that you crawl back in you WinNut hole and stay there.