(Please welcome Naomi Wolf, author of The End of America: A Letter of Warning To A Young Patriot — jh)
Naomi Wolf is a familiar name to FDL readers due to the many posts she’s written for us, including some superb work on Blackwater. Her new work, which chronicles what happens to societies that pursue many of the same dangerous trends which we are doing right now, draws many apt analogies with totalitarian regimes whose anti-Democratic agendas the Bush administration is obviously in sympathy with.
It’s well-mined territory in both blogs and books at the moment for obvious reasons. And a lot of people are making the argument that the comparisons to Hitler and Stalin are overblown, largely because their own lives feel quite normal despite what they’re hearing on the news.
I thought this was one of the most interesting points that Naomi addressed:
At first, Nazi Germany would not have looked, on the surface, so unrecognizable to us: Germans still, for a time, saw an independent judiciary; lawyers — even human rights lawyers; working journalists — even political satirists; criticism of Nazis in cabarets and theatre; and professors still teaching critical thinking. There were hundreds of newspapers of all political colors; there were feminist organizations, ab ortion rights activists, sex education institutes, even gay rights organizations. These kinds of civil society organizations would become “co-ordinated” with Nazi ideology, or simply disemboweled – but as the shift was first taking place things looked in many ways, superficially, like an open modern society.
This is one of the reasons we get so indignant when well-funded advocacy groups like NARAL or the HRC start seeing their interests as aligned with the DC establishment when it comes into conflict with actually defending the causes they purport to espouse — it’s a very bad sign for a lot of reasons.
But there seems to be a general assumption that at a certain point, if things get really bad people will just openly revolt. That something will trigger certain instincts within a democratic society, and the populace at large will start to push back. But as one outrage after after another simply becomes acceptable, you have to wonder — when does this impulse kick in?
Consider the torture curve:
The Abu Ghraib photos emerged in April 2004. Americans were appalled. But in less than three years Americans went from being horrified by these photos to being accustomed enough o detainee abuse to let Congress pass the 2006 [Military Commissions Act] law. In less than three years, the White House went from rhetorically disavowing the use of torture to being confident enough openly to advance legislation to permit many cruel practices.
Naomi explains this acquiescence in terms of “mission creep,” where laws and tactics that abridge civil liberties are adopted to protect us from an “other” who suddenly becomes one’s self:
Early on this “mission creep” is seldom evident. There is a strong, if unconscious, psychological denial among citizens at this stage. Because there is now a two-caste system, and because most people are in the protected caste, a kind of magical thinking makes many people feel more secure as they witness “others” being sent into brutal detention. This is the regressive seduction of fascism — a “Daddy wouldn’t harm me” kind of thinking, a sense of privilege as Daddy’s state-sanctioned ire and even violence are directed at others outside the circle of safety. Then, if they are working in a democracy, leaders seeking a fascist shift acclimate citizens to an ever-lowered bar for the acceptance of stage torture. (The Fox TV show 24 depicts torture as entertainment. The producers recently noted that torture is no longer shocking, let alone news.)
But even though Americans seem to be unhappy with their government and don’t like what the Cheney administration is doing (nor do they like the Democrats who have failed in their 2006 mandate to stop them), Naomi argues (and I think rightly) that they are largely tone deaf to the potential danger:
Americans don’t get this at all, but other countries who have experienced dictatorships either near them or over them do get it: Journalists in Brazil and Argentina know what the difference is between publishing the same newspaper while looking over one’s shoulder. The fact that we are unaware that a dictatorship can be incremental leaves us terribly vulnerable right now.
Please welcome Naomi Wolf in the comments.
Related posts:
- Naomi Wolf, OMB Watch Endorse Alan Grayson’s Campaign to Reform the Fed
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dr. Steven Miles, Oath Betrayed: America’s Torture Doctors
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Andrea Batista Schlesinger: The Death of Why?
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Christopher Eisgruber, The Next Justice: Repairing the Supreme Court Appointments Process
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Douglas A. Blackmon, Slavery By Another Name





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Hi, Naomi.
Yesterday we were watching the House committee hearings on airline security. Watch lists and no-fly lists seem a mess, to put it mildly. You’ve stated recently that you frequently get pulled for secondary inspection when you fly.
Have you made any attempt to get yourself removed from the watch list? It would be instructive to all to document the process, and demonstrate the arbitrary and unconstitutional nature of this type of surveillance.
Welcome, Naomi. Thanks so much for being here today. The book is great, and I know a lot of people here besides myself have read and enjoyed it.
Great book, Naomi! I was apprehensive about reading it for fear of becoming even more depressed about the state of politics in this country, but instead feel educated and outraged.
Oh, and congratulations on the books strong showing on the NYT non-fiction best seller list. Good to see it’s getting into the hands of a lot of people.
Naomi,
You are a true American Patriot – Thank you for writing “The End of America.” As Thom Hartmann said, your book is one of the most important written in the last two decades. I feel that anything could happen between now and the end of 2008, in terms of our democratic republic being lost to a fascist dictatorship. Has the American Freedom Campaigan discussed mass mobilization with members of organizations such as MoveOn.org, etc… Perhaps mass email campaigns, mass protests and marches, and mass “sit down strikes” in order for millions of Americans to come together and make a statement to our elected leaders and the mass media, that we are aware of what’s going on and we will not allow American democracy to be swept away…?
But that’s the point. The Constitution and everything we’ve known is lost. The only way out now is to leave before it’s too late.
Thank you, Ms Wolf, for pointing out the fact that torture has become entertainment.
My husband was a Vietnam vet and POW, who was tortured by his Nirth Vietnamese captors. He suffered from his injuries for over thirty years, until his fatal heart attack two years ago.
It breaks my heart to see torture being used to entertain people. It breaks my heart to read torture jokes.
Torture is, as I know you will agree, no laughing matter.
I don’t understand why there isn’t more outrage in the United States about the torture going on in the name of all Americans. Many people I have spoken with say they are against torture, but they won’t actually DO anything about it. You are right, sadly. Americans, it feels like, have become those frogs in the pot of water.
With gratitude,
Heather
So unless this was posted on the West Coast, it is 5:14 here. Were are all the comments? Where’s the outrage. Does anyone care?
Jane Hamsher @ 2
Thank you so much for having me Jane and thank you for welcoming me into the community. Interestingly, I have found that concern that the Hitler/Stalin analogies are extreme only arise from people who haven’t read the book — generally those who have are all too aware that I am not talking about equivalencies in horror, I am talking about common tactics that would-be despots always use top close down an open society or crush a democracy movement. You see the same ten steps with petty dictators as well — readers would have counted steps seven, eight, nine and ten in Pakistan last week. And you are so right to alert us to the fact that I am focussing on the beginnings of this kind of shift, when for most people things look and feel quite normal. What is important to understand is that these pressures are indeed incremental — there is a great quote on my site at Chelsea Green that talks about how in Germany in the beginning — in a parliamentary democrachy — everyone was aware that each step was small, they adjusted, they adapted…until the point of resistance was past.
Can America creep back from the brink? Won’t our next President want these powers, and more, for his/her own use? No GOPs — and only one Democrat, Dodd — have promised to restore the Constitution upon being inaugurated.
I wonder if an economic shock, which seems inevitable now, will be the catalyst that will turn America back to its values. I fear a terror attack within America, not only for its immediate impact, but that it will guarantee an inexorable march to fascism. Do you agree?
Thanks for this book, Ms Wolf, and for your contributions here at FireDogLake.
Naomi – Great to have you back. The book is a marvelous primer, both poignant and prescient, I’m afraid. One thing I frequently forget which you point out so well is that fascism in Germany and Italy arose by abusing existing democracies. All the more reason to “get” it can and is happening here.
Welcome, Naomi!
You have my undivided attention: no TV!
The book is a terrific, albeit strikingly unsettling, read.
Chacounne @ 6
Thank you so much for sharing this. Do you mean he suffered physically or emotionally? or both? It is certainly very dangerous that torture has become something we are numb to — have allowed the state to legislate — and that we even see as entertainment. This is a process that psychiatrists are very familiar with called desensitization. And as I have said here before, I do feel that the admin is deliberately sending out quite a lot of violent sadistic imagery in order to desensitize us as well as intimidate us — both can happen at once. The reason it is so dangerous is not just that our souls get corroded — it ois also always th ecase that when the state starts by torturing `them’ they end by torturing `us.’ Here is what I wonder — why is the religious community so quiet on this? where are jewish leaders, catholic leaders, evangelicals? that silence too reminds me of the silence of the clergy in Germany when the `others’ began to be tortured…
re: Hitler/Stalin–it’s true that the analogy is overused–the problem seems to be that we (fortunately) have precious few analogies TO use, and people need to say *something*, so they resort to that. (I personally feel bad about saying “Kafkaesque” so much, but I know of few other literary examples to describe the situation accurately.)
naomi wolf @ 7
It was alarming how closely the steps Musharraf has taken in Pakistan in recent days followed the blueprint laid out in EOA. The justifications he used (Activist Judges) were instructive, too.
Welcome again, Naomi. I thoroughly enjoyed the book — lots and lots to chew on after the read, which is my favorite test of a book’s lasting power with me, I have to say. The point that you make throughout that the individual acquiesance, but by bit, to the lessening of rights, individual civil liberties, and personal freedoms of all kinds resonates — as did the question of why people allow that to happen without much pushback at all.
We have been talking a lot this week about why it is that any number of people are not stepping up, getting involved, or even educating themselves at all beyond the surface sloganeering that gets thrown at them every election cycle. I am wondering if you have any concrete suggestions on increasing the participation of the masses of Americans who have, for reasons large and small, simply turned out the responsibilities of citizenship. Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated…
I become so unnerved by this.
It’s as if I lose my inner strength when I think about the possibility that what you are contemplating is true.
PeteCO @ 4
Thank you but I have to ask you all to keep helping – there has been an amazingly consistent mainstream and print media silence about it in places where I usually have space…
Welcome Naomi,
Thank you for the work you are doing.
I had always wondered how an advanced society gave themselves over to Hitler. I always figured the “how to boil a live frog” theory was at work.
The corollary that goes with that is the cook (in our case, Cheney, Bush and their masters) knows what he is doing by gradually applying the heat – it is no accident. They know from the get the public would not initially approve of their goals, so they must avoid accountability.
I think another part of the puzzle is a less educated citizenry. Today’s schools train kids to be subservient bricks in the wall, rather than impart critical thinking skills. That may be by design:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/2i.htm
1930’s Germans were narcissistic, emphasizing appearance, fitness and sports.
http://findarticles.com/p/arti….._n15696958
All of which sounds distressingly familiar. For those who say the fascist analogy is overblown, I agree with Naomi.
It is among us.
Welcome Naomi –
Sounds like your writing (and I’ve not read your book yet, though it’s on my list) has some “kinship” with another book that recently has come to some folks attention about Nazi Germany called They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-1945 by Milton Mayer (I’ve also not read that one yet (sigh).). Basically changes occurred so incrementally that no individual incremental change was enough to cause most people alarm. If the gas chambers had come immediately after the beginnings of Jewish exclusion (say, the identification of Jewish-owned businesses) from German society, people would have been up in arms. But that wasn’t how it happened. And the Germans Mr. Mayer interviewed basically said that they were lulled into complaisance because it wasn’t a big deal, and it wasn’t them who were affected directly.
There’s a lesson for us in America in that…and I suspect that is what you are trying to bring to us in your book.
diogenes — I think that the starting with a pot of cool water and ever so gradually turning up the heat, a tiny increment at a time analogy is an apt one.
naomi wolf @ 19
Frequent readers and commenters on this site are well aware how uncomfortable the mainstream media is with the truth.
Naomi,
Welcome again to FDL, and thanks for all your work on this dangerous trend! How do we deal with people who react with the “you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill” thing?
Bob in HI
Hi Naomi,
Who do you think was the author of Musharraf’s Emergency Declaration…..?
diogenes @ 20
I was pleased to hear Keith Olbermann come out and use the word “Fascism” in his comment last week. If it walks like a duck….
Thank you, Naomi, for your efforts. I’ve watched the events in Pakistan and feel like I’m watching a preview of what’s going to happen to the U.S. before Bush leaves office.
For years, I’ve also been encouraging young women to read “The Handmaid’s Tale” by Margaret Atwood. I read it when I was in college and remember thinking, “A theocracy will never happen here.” Atwood was prescient. It is happening here.
billlaurelmd @ 20
People keep mentioning this same title to me and I am eager to read it. Same idea — a very powerful one. Really the memoirs of the time would strike us all as so familiar — people are vacationing, drinking, going to the movies, paying attention to fashion and celebrities, even as rumors begin of bad things happening far away or to people not in one’s own circle — and people begin to talk the way we are here — when will it end? surely it will pass! can’t get much worse — then what can we do? Regarding the comment about educatio I do think that is key — turns out Margaret Spelling has supported the Bush admin taking time away from civics and government classes in middle school so now there is a gen of young people who actually don’t know how democracy works or whty it is valuable!
CHS and Naomi,
Do you think Cheny and Bush had this in mind from the start?
I do. 9/11 accelerated the pace, but I think it was in the works all along. Three reasons:
1. Cheney was always for a super executive branch, and Bush really wasn’t joking with his dictator remarks.
2. The pre 9/11 wiretapping.
3. These guys’ nature is Robber Baron, an era when we were much less free than history books teach us. And the Robber Barons got on quite well with Hitler and Mussolini, including Gee Dubya’s grandfather.
Hi, Ms. Wolf. I heard you on democracynow. I have been concerned about the process as well, but have noticed that the person who mentions Hitler or Nazi first in the arguement, loses it (CAHN’s Law). Many people just roll their eyes, because it seems like the U.S. is still so far away from what happened in Germany. Yet, the seeds are so apparent. And with such itsy bitsy provocation. Who’d a thought that 3000 deaths could make U.S. citizens comfortable with torture & giving up their civil rights? At least the Germans had the excuse of economic depression and war reparations, to name just 2. And Hitler made them World Heroes with the 1936 Olympics, vs. W making the U.S. a World Pariah.
Hillary is W-lite. No improvement if we elect her. I agree whoever above said that we should get out while the getting is good.
My late husband’s (Jewish) family left Germany after Krystallnacht, though they knew they should have left sooner. We should learn something from history.
man, been listening to naomi for quite a while and it’s really a pleasure to see her here again at the lake
I’d like to ask naomi a question about “the patriot act” as it relates to “the enabling act”
before it was passed I was telling everyone the patriot act looked like it was plaguerized from hitler’s enabling act
would you go so far as to say they actually plaguerized hitlers “enabling act” or would you rather say the two are merely reflective of the fascist goal?
Naomi – Thanks for being here today. I think you speak to this issue with stunning clarity. My concern is that I think the heat started turning up in this pot during the Ford administration and we’re only now experiencing the effects of the temperature increases (a lot like our environment BTW). Can we still be shocked into making the leap?
thing is, these bastards are smart about it–by leaving “release valves” (blogs, Olbermann, AA, etc.) in place, they can blithely reply that we’re insane to call this fascism–a fascist state surely wouldn’t allow “Bush Sucks” bumper stickers, would it? well, unfortunately, in the new fascism, it would…
I would also like to ask naomi if she thinks pakistan’s suspension of the constitution was under direction of cheney’s office as a trial balloon to see what they would face if they tried it here in the states
oh, and re: Hitler analogies, I remain horrified by the US adoption of the word “homeland”. it’s like, when did the word “national” slip from favor? answer: when it was discovered that “homeland” inspired different, more nationalist reactions…
diogenes at 28 — Honestly, I don’t think there has ever been some over-arching plan other than “where you see an opening to make a move that increases executive power and/or the interests of neocon strategery, take the opening and run as far as you can with it until someone makes you stop.”
It is surprisingly easy to do so when you aren’t getting adequate pushback. But it is even easier to do so when what you are doing is so out of the normal course of thought process, so over the ethical norms that normally operate, that no one really sees it coming. The genius (if you can call it that) of the people who have pushed a lot of this is that they knew the value of keeping things secret until they were already signed, sealed and operational in a lot of cases — Yoo and Addington’s work at the DOJ is one glaring example of that. Cheney knows all the public and private levers of government, and he works them very well…and very silently when it serves his purposes.
John Dean and I had a long conversation about this at YKos. In some respects, his entire career of public service and private corporate jobs in between has been training for this moment in history. And he has seized it with the fervor of a true believer and executed a lot of it flawlessly. It is too bad that the intent is for power consolidation not for public benefit, but for personal reasons that have ill effects over the long term.
annagranfors @ 32
Fascism 2.0. New & Improved!
Thank you so much for sharing this. Do you mean he suffered physically or emotionally? or both? It is certainly very dangerous that torture has become something we are numb to — have allowed the state to legislate — and that we even see as entertainment. This is a process that psychiatrists are very familiar with called desensitization. And as I have said here before, I do feel that the admin is deliberately sending out quite a lot of violent sadistic imagery in order to desensitize us as well as intimidate us — both can happen at once. The reason it is so dangerous is not just that our souls get corroded — it ois also always th ecase that when the state starts by torturing `them’ they end by torturing `us.’ Here is what I wonder — why is the religious community so quiet on this? where are jewish leaders, catholic leaders, evangelicals? that silence too reminds me of the silence of the clergy in Germany when the `others’ began to be tortured…
He suffered both physically and emotionally for those thirty years.
Physically, he had all of his toenails removed three times, to try to stop the bamboo infection, which came from the pain they inflicted to try to make him give them the information they wanted. It didn’t work and he died with the infection still ongoing.
Emotionally, the effects were far, far worse.
He never got a full night’s sleep. Many nights he would scream in his sleep, or speak urgently in Vietnamese, which he had been taught as part of his training, trying to convince someone to stop.
There was never enough food to fill the hole left by the food deprivation. He had diabetes (possibly as a result of Agent Orange), and Congestive Heart Failure (due to Rhumatic Fever when he was a baby), and ended up on dialysis for the last two years of his life. Dialysis doesn’t take all of the potasium or phosphorus out of your blood, so you have to be on a very reduced diet. I sent Dan into deep depression, because it felt like he was back in captivity. I was his jailer.
Those are just some of the effects he suffered from.
As to the lack of speaking of the clergy of the country, I completely and absolutely agree. I am on the eight year journey to my master’s in divinity and I am ashamed of many, many of my future colleagues, and my brothers and sisters in faith.
With gratitude,
Heather
Christy Hardin Smith @ 16
Thank you and I love your work here. Well we have a problem: as you all may know we had a great conversation brainstorming the Nov 6 protest based on the moratorium — many people contacted Barbara here in NYC — events were held in Seattle, other cities that may have gone more actively — but it was truly disturbing: we made our banner, took our flags, took our constitution, went out to Union Square with a bullhorn — and people were actually afraid to come up to us when we asked them to sign something in support of the constitution! I was chasing people with a clipboard and a pen across the massive public space. The AFC desperately needs money to hire an organizer because clearly it will have to be much more orchestrated — I guess I was naive to think that the almost-spontaneous gatherings of the 60’s (my childhood in the haight ashbury) were plausible now. I think the people we tried to engage were truly scared — they knew what the constitution was and that it used to be a good thing to support. So we need to raise money for a national and for local organizers and yes we are talking to moveon.org about events but if you are members you should also bring it up with them — they respond to grasroots pressure. The good news is we are now mobilizing lawyers to sign a call for hearings into whether crimes have been committed by this admin and then to appponit a special prosecutor to investigate — this is what drove out Nixon. And we know that being held accountable for crimes committed (M Ratner of the CCR taught me that there are at least three big ones) is the one thing they fear. We also included the threat of investigating those who `abet’, dems or republicans, to hopefully put the fear of God in Pelosi, etc.
Welcome to the Lake Naomi,
I’m looking forward to reading your book. Having read a fair amount on the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany, it’s striking to note that in almost every instance the Nazi’s were, with few exceptions, able to politically out maneuver and intimidate their opponents and on more than one occasion out muscle the opposition. Do you see an equivalency in the U.S. with Republican success in politically out maneuvering a weak, incoherent and disorganzed opposition party? With the Florida “Brooks Brothers” riots in Florida during the 2000 recount and the rise of for profit ideologically driven mercenary forces do you see any equivalency with the Nazi’s use of the SA as enforcers of Party policies and politics?
Hi Naomi!
I was wondering, how would you compare Britain’s creep towards fascism with that of the US?
My own feeling is that we’re not yet as far gone in many of your 10 steps, and yet with the growth of surveillance apparatus far surpassing the US, we are building up a great deal of infrastructure that would come in very handy to those ends.
Good luck, and please, stay safe.
CHS,
Concur, in that the illuminati/bilderberger/what-have-you don’t fly black helicopters to secret meeting places to plot world domination.
More like birds-of-a-feather group think, plus I don’t see any real difference between the Jack Welchs and Lee Raymonds of today’s era, and the Rockerfellers and Vanderbilts of yesteryear.
CHS @ 35;
Volume One of Ian Kershaw’s biography of Hitler echoes this. When the Nazis were on the rise, they couldn’t believe they kept getting away with what they were up to. A lot like this crowd, I think.
Hi Naomi ” something will trigger certain instincts within a democratic society, and the populace at large will start to push back. “
My two cents is that something is a real or percieved failure by our leaders to keep us fat and happy.
An ecconomic collapse or a defeat in war could do it.
This could lead to two alternatives a repeat of Nazi Germany in America or an FDR New Deal. Notice all the Rights complaints about the lack of bipatisanship.
The GOP, Lou Dobbs and Ron Paul in particular are already preparing the popluation to blame immigrants as the new scapegoats for this failure.
Just like in Nazi Germany where Jews, Homosexuals, Commies lesser races etc were blamed for Germany’s loss in WW2.
My hope is that the GOP is branded with the failure to get Ossama and won’t be able to pin our expected retreat in Iraq on us.
The danger you mention should be guarded against don’t get me wrong, but I am trying to be hopeful here.
perris @ 33
You know I was not inclined to think any such thing until this morning. I saw a piece that seem to `explain’ that the crackdown was in RESPONSE to `activist judges.’ And this of course is not a Pakistani phrase, it is a Bush phrase. And I thought, well who is spinning Musharraf to this reporter? Not until that point had there been any hint of sympathy for the dictator. Also important to note: they rounded up hundreds of lawyers and activists right away. How is that possible? This is why I am so flipped out about the watch list — no at 775000 americans: when they are preparing for a crackdown they keep these people on a list. I read IBM and the Holocaust recently that showed that IBM colluded with Hitler in providing data punch technology to identify everyone so fully that when it was time to round them up it went like clockwork.
Have been waiting for today, after hearing you on some radio. I go around with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach nowdays. I know we must extricate ourselves from this monumental dilemma but how? Are there people in high places aware other than the ineffective ones in the Senate and Congress who will help us? Can people from other countries who have been through this help, how? Are we doomed? It feels like it.
I do not know anyone who is worried or concerned and I feel like maybe I am just being silly; but adding the 2’s I am able to glean from good blogs and internet and what little sensible radio and tv news and the 2’s of what feels like common sense brings me to a very worrisome 4.
I hope your book will become widespread– good Christmas gift—-
naomi wolf @ 9
They even had a word for it: Gleischaltung
Naomi,
Chelsea Green Publishing recently provided copies of “The End of America” to members of Code Pink, who were able to get your book to the offices of each U.S. Senator. In addition to Dennis Kucinich, one hopes that a coalition of progressive elected officials would come together and hold the administration accountable for war crimes and crimes against the Constitutuion and American people. AND that mainstream media had the courage and integrity to report what’s really going on.
Wonderful, Thank you Naomi and thank you for all you do Jane.
You writeAnd as I have said here before, I do feel that the admin is deliberately sending out quite a lot of violent sadistic imagery in order to desensitize us as well as intimidate us — both can happen at once.
My wife has noted that there is always an increase in the showing of war movies before the saber rattling begins from the govt. There is also a reason that the “powers that be” do not get too incensed about the terrible, violent, video games… all part of the grand plan I assume.
I have your book, my wife is just about to finish it (two days maybe) and I am looking forward to it.
Thanks again NW and FDL
Bluetoe @ 39
Great points as always from this community. Yes, readers know that I do compare the Blackshirts and then the Brownshirts to Blackwater and actually that scene — of people being menaced by identically dressed young men while they count the ballots — was initiated by Mussolini in Milan, repeated by Hitler in Austria and there it was again in Florida.
About outmaneuvering you are right as well — sadly when it is a contest between democracy and any thing less it is the `anything less’ that wins. The Dems keep being outmaneuvered because they keep thinking they are engaged in the dance of democracy — whereas their opponents are engaged in martial maneuvers that have nothing to tdo with this dance. That is why only equally savagely directed — if legal — tactics are the only ones that work: ie starting an investigation that could put these people behind bars.
Hey Naomi, Jane, Christy and everybody. If we can’t get 2/3 to vote for kids’ health insurance, why do impeachment? Is it something you think that once begun will gain momentum?
Am I too late?
I believe Micheal Ledeen’s studies for his PhD had something to do with Fascism. I think he did a great deal of studying about the growth of fascism in Italy.
Naomi how does the thinking of some of the neo-cons “the end justifies the means” “creative destruction” the “noble lies” play into this build up of fascism in our own country?
nomolos @ 48
I was thinking of going to see a movie last week – not something I do very often – until I looked at the listings. Half of them featured torture or other forms of extreme violence. Made me wonder.
with that in mind, I’d be very interested in your thoughts about the strange House vote on Kucinich’s measure 333 earlier this week…
perris @ 30
Funny, I was invited to engage on C Span with Viet Dinh, one of the architects of the patriot act — a lovely gentleman who helped craft a document that will live on in hell, which just goes to show you how good people can be seduced by terrible agendas. I mentioned the similarities — which are LEGION — between the Patriot Act and the Enabling Acts — and Claus 2. These laws basically let the State listen to Germans’ phone calls, intercept their telegrams, limit their assembly — all in the name of security and patriotism after a terror scare (the Reichstag fire). The majority of Parliament — not Nazis by any means! — passed it because they did not want to be seen as unpatriotic. I don’t think he knew of these similarities and when I pointed them out I believe he blanched. Look at the clip and see what you think. But yes they are profoundly similar.
Rod @ 52
Do they talk about `creative destruction’? I just saw a comment online recently from a scholar of Fascism that noted that this is a plagiarism of Marinettui and the Futurists, who were the theorists of Italian fascism. Really these people just lift the greatest hits.
naomi wolf @ 56
Micheal Ledeen and creative destruction
http://www.nationalreview.com/…..2001.shtml
Micheal Ledeen and Italian Fascism
http://www.nationalreview.com/…..2001.shtml
Beerfart Liberal @ 50
That tactic from the outset won’t be easy. The approach has to be hearings then special prosecutor — then -presumably evidence of crimes — then resignation/impeachment then prosecution. And I think we have to be even more vocal than we have been re congress. I spoke to an insider who said that Pelosi, Schumer cleared Mukasey because Wall Street wanted him. We have to have some leverage that outweighs their pressure. I think targeting them for abetting crimes may help. Also I am seeing a shift as more people say, it is a coup, there are criminals in the oval office — it reframes what we see so there can be more pushback. Re the international community it is time fpor sanctions and election monitors.
perris @ 33
Kind of like the Israeli air force going at Lebannon’s Hezbollah underground missle bunkers alone without enough ground troops support was a thankfuly failed test of a possible American strike on Iran?
Which raises the moral question if Bush were actualy sucsesful at his wars would the Peace movement be as strong as it is now.
Would we already have officaly martial law?
Darrell Koerner @ 47
Well (and THANK YOU to code pink and that brave activist! she had to be really sneaky!!) this is a possible leverage point. It looks as thought congress is divisible into the `constitution wing’ and everyone else. :Let’s drive grassroots pressure to let our representatives know they are dead in the water unless they join the constitution wing. Look at ron paul — I don’t endorse his candidacy but do endorse his legislation and he raised four million in a day – let’s raise that for freedom — we could also put a heap of money in escrow and tell congress we will release it only to those who join the constitution part y – and we will hound the donors until they shift — but it is time for hardball.
NW we made our banner, took our flags, took our constitution, went out to Union Square with a bullhorn — and people were actually afraid to come up to us when we asked them to sign something in support of the constitution! I was chasing people with a clipboard and a pen across the massive public space. The AFC desperately needs money to hire an organizer because clearly it will have to be much more orchestrated — I guess I was naive to think that the almost-spontaneous gatherings of the 60’s (my childhood in the haight ashbury) were plausible now. I think the people we tried to engage were truly scared —
This is horrifying. There are many recorded images of the incredible furtive look at strangers that one saw on the streets of some European countries prior to the war… Poland etc. The same furtive looks that were given at the bodies hanging from lamp posts in Warsaw and in Selma. It is a glance of guilt, fear, helplessness and anger. This administration has managed to instill so much fear into the population of this country that I fear it will take a violent revolution to break the country from it’s malaise.
annagranfors @ 34
Fatherland must not have tested well in the Polls. I am so sure the phrase was poll tested.
naomi wolf @ 56
Who can ask for these election monitors? Can US citizens, or does it need to be from a recognized international group? What kind of resistance can be expected for this, and how do we plan for it?
Hello Ms Wolf:
Dennis Kucinich said on Thom Hartman this week that5 the Military in Civil Law Enforcement act that will allow our military to turn against its citizens (my words, not his). Over and over again, legislators are giving away the store ~ up to and including the Democrats. By voting in this Makasey as Attorney General, they are now accomplices to any and all illegal and immoral practices because they KNEW about this man and STILL voted this man in as this nations highest legal authorty. They can no longer say they “did not know.” What can we do about this? I am about ready to have a one woman riot I am so frustrated because my own party is going along with it with eyes wide open. I am just a low income person who watches this in disbelief and know I am not the idiot here, they are. Still, knowing they are idiots does not stop the insanity. And I know I am not alone as we fire pups all see it, how can we get them to respect those of us who can read them like YOUR book?
Cat In Seattle
nomolos @ 61
Damn, this really resonates. You just explained the look we kept getting. Not that people diodn’t know what we were talking about or thought we were crazy — but that they were ashamed they could not stop and sign.
Naomi! Just got in and missed the start.
I have to confess a (totally non-stalkerish) crush on you but…
Here you come again with the Nazi this, fascism that, creeping coup, and I get all bummed, angry, scared, the whole gamut. So, if you don’t mind, I’ll just sit here and enjoy your presence but will put my fingers in my ears and go “LA-LA-LA-LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU LA-LA-LA-LA!” K?
Aloha, Naomi!
As Norman Mailer, may he RIP, penned in 2003:
“The dire prospect that opens, therefore, is that America is going to become a mega-banana republic where the army will have more and more importance in Americans’ lives. It will be an ever greater and greater overlay on the American system. And before it is all over, democracy, noble and delicate as it is, may give way. My long experience with human nature – I’m 80 years old now – suggests that it is possible that fascism, not democracy, is the natural state.“
It seems he might be correct… :-(
Cat In Seattle @ 64
Naomi,
Has the AFC and MoveOn.org, etc given thought to establishing a FREEDOM CHEST, as opposed to a War Chest, in terms of asking people to donate money towards legal action against this administration. Has AFC, etc contacted folks such as George Soros and deep progressive pockets, so this fund can be established as quickly as possible?
naomi wolf @ 65
Yes, shame. Thank you. That is why you are a writer and I am not.
Yesterday Congressman Kucinich on Democracy Now interrupted the conversation with the following:
In addition I have read this week tht the military is operating in So. Cal. in the fire aftermath and plans are under way to utilize the military on our southern border.. As someone mentioned this could be used to keep citizens from leaving the US too..
It’s this constant creep in one direction with almost no effective push back (in congress or the courts) which has me concerned. We had 40 percent of the Senate actually vote against torture AG Mukasey this week.
All of that with Congressional (Dem) silence and a few cheers on the House floor from Duncan Hunter, as our President and VP cheer for Musharrif and tell him to hide his military uniform.
This is not a secret CIA operation which destroys a little known Democracy in some far away land.. This is paying a tyrant with nukes to overthrow a Democracy (from within) of 175 million people.. And cheering for it on international television!
Naomi, thanks for being here. Some days I’m committed to defending our America from fascist take over, come what may. On bad days I wonder when the German intellectuals, moderates, artisans ,etc. realized their time to immigrate was quickly evaporating.
How can citizens provide the necessary protection of the Constitution when congress refuses?
We march, rally, petition Congress to what avail?
You’re great, Wolf–thanks!
I wonder–other countries usually have a Parliamentary or proportionate system nowadays–even if they had dictatorship or other oppressive rulers in the past which taught them to be more aware of rights restrictions and censorship and the normalization of evil, etc.
We don’t, tho, and we’re stuck with an opposition party that isn’t one at all overall, and who often helps and enables–and doesn’t effectively fight–those who would restrict our rights and freedoms. We see now that it’s stil business as usual in Congress (except for things not connected to our rights), and that whatever the GOP wants they still get.
What do we do? They don’t listen to us–as they prove over and over, and they’re beholden to lobbyists and big money–none of whom have our interests in mind at all or are even concerned with the Constitution at all.
Naomi:
Welcome to the salon. I managed to get an advance copy of The End of America and I’d like to give you a standing ovation. It’s both eloquent and timely, and most of all, it says what needs saying, and loudly: that movement conservatism is dragging the nation over the cliff of authoritarianism, and possibly into the abyss of fascism.
I was especially struck by your ten traits of a dictatorship, which I thought were really quite accurate and representative of the nature and scope of the problem. And your ability to tie those traits into the current body politic is not just compelling but really makes clear the imperative to act.
However, I do have some quibbles with your typology, particularly related to fascism as compared with authoritarianism generally, and I think they dilute the coherency of your thesis. In the larger picture of things, these are minor issues, but I wonder if you’d be willing to explain your thinking.
Some quick background: I came up in journalism through newspapers in Idaho and Montana, and spent an inordinate amount of time over the years covering, interviewing, and writing about neo-Nazis, militiamen, Freemen, Christian Identity folks, survivalists, and various forms of far-right extremists — all of them very much the real article when we’re talking about fascists. In the process of trying to ground myself in what I was dealing with, I also immerse myself in the academic literature on fascism and various forms of right-wing extremism.
Now, as I understand these things, there have historically been three different kinds of authoritarian/totalitarian governments: Stalinist/Maoist communism, military dictatorships, and fascism. They all have certain shared characteristics, but also very distinct traits that distinguish them from one another.
You cover some of this, of course, but I guess where we part ways comes when you write:
The problem here is that state terror directed against the individual is actually a trait of authoritarians generally — as, for that matter, are the 10 traits you outline and explore. You mention in the text that some critics are more comfortable using the word “authoritarian” to fit your description, and I’m not sure you’ve adequately answered them.
It’s important in a way because there are key distinguishing characteristics of fascism, distinct from generic authoritarians, and I think it would have made your thesis a great deal more powerful if you had explored this for us. To wit, there are four traits in particular that stand out:
– The cult of violence.
– Eliminationist palingenesis.
– Selective populism.
– Its ardent, even rabid, antiliberalism.
(”Eliminationist palingenesis” refers to the fascists’ core, animating myth — namely, the phoenix-like rebirth of the “traditional” national identity, obtained by purging undersirable elements. See particularly Roger Griffin on this.)
As you can see from this short list, these are elements of the current brand of authoritarianism that are in fact wafting up into the American body politic as we speak. But it isn’t all the top-down phenomenon your book describes — it’s being fed by right-wing media and the army of 24-percenters who stand behind Bush no matter what.
In other words, I think there’s a symbiotic process going on between movement conservatives in general and their authoritarian leadership that your book, by emphasizing the process coming from the top, happens to miss.
But as I say, these are quibbles. You certainly have my thanks for tackling the subject as thoughtfully as you have. Oh, and great writing, too.
Thank you Naomi for your book, although I haven’t had access to it, my recollection of history give me some insight into its contents. I will be getting a copy in the near future.
It is interestig to note three countries in the EU have experienced catastrophic episodes in their histories during the 20th century, Germany experienced the National Socialist coup on their constituted government; Ireland experienced a civil war which leaves its marks to this very day on the body politic; Spain also had a civil war, a military coup leading to a military dictatorship only receintly relieved and is only now beginning to sort out the effects that propaganda, torture and state terrorism have had on the body politic without the benefice of a “Truth and Reconciliation” tactic being availed. There are others as well.
One thing that can be counted on, whatever happens, the neocon coup in America will not last but the damages it will inflict may prove fatal to the prior American Constitution. A new regime can be constructed in the rubble left behind by the current bankruptcy in power, there exists acceptable and workable prototypes to reconstruct but great care will have to be taken to insure there will never be such concentrations of executive power that what is being experienced will recur. That will be the great challenge of today, I believe. IIRC the presently constituted government is actually the SECOND Republic since independence was otained. We need to begin designing the THIRD Republic (if that is what it is to be), the bankruptcy of the Republican/Democratic(DLC) is not capable of lasting beyond their ability to apply demogogery, terror, and force – count on that.
Naomi, as you travel about and discuss your book and the subject behind it, do you find that the people reading it, coming to hear you speak, etc, tend to be us (the progressives and lefties of the choir) or them (GOP types, independent but conservative, Reagan democrats, etc)?
I am just wondering if you seem to be singing more often to the choir or to the masses that need to think about this sort of thing?
Darrell Koerner @ 68
That is a really good idea. But I can tell you personally I am exhausted by going to any number of people with substantial resources including the kind of people you mention and asking for money — we have barely raised enough for half a staffer. We have found a fundraiser but can’t yet pay her salary. And most of us are doing this pretty much full time pro bono. So I guess this is one of those moments when I suggest we release the `people at the top will do it’ — we have canvassed people at the top and what we need now is for people like you and your friends to do what the ordinary peopel who gave 4 million to ron paul in a day in tiny donatrions did.
It was alarming how closely the steps Musharraf has taken in Pakistan in recent days followed the blueprint laid out in EOA. The justifications he used (Activist Judges) were instructive, too.
And the Lincoln reference too (he’s not a national hero to Pakistan in any way). It read like a test run for here to me, and i’m sure we wrote it for him. And i shivered. But again, what can we do?
Where did this movement towards fascism in our country start?
One of the king pins for the neo-cons and some of their fascist strategies and thinking was Leo Strauss
http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05242003.html
http://64.233.169.104/search?q…..mm01-3.pdf the roots of muslims rage&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Naomi have you read Bernard Lewis’s writings? The pre-emptive war zealots have.
http://www.juancole.com/essays/revlew.htm
Cat In Seattle @ 64
Hey Cat we just had a FirePup meeting in Seattle today I’m on the facebook site contact me or FunnyDiva we want to have another next month hope to see you there.
OT: but for those with TCM one of my fav movies is on, The Train.
Naomi, wasn’t Hitler popular when the NAZIs assumed power? Isn’t that a key difference, that most Americans despise Bush and Cheney? They would have to stage a coup before the election in 2008 and they have very little support. I don’t see how they can get away with it at this point, unless there is another major terrorist attack or a major recession.
naomi wolf @ 58
Thank you.
comments? where are they?
This is the wording Kucinich was referring to in the 2008 Defense Authorization Bill:
Section 1615:
“(a) DETERMINATION OF REQUIREMENTS.—The Secretary of Defense shall determine the military-unique capabilities needed to be provided by the Department of Defense to support civil authorities in an incident of national significance or a catastrophic incident.
(b) PLAN FOR FUNDING CAPABILITIES.—
(1) PLAN.—The Secretary of Defense shall develop and implement a plan, in coordination with the Secretaries of the military departments and the
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, for providing the funds and resources necessary to develop and maintain the following:
(A) The military-unique capabilities deter16
mined under subsection (a).
(B) Any additional capabilities determined
by the Secretary to be necessary to support the
use of the active components and the reserve
components of the armed forces for homeland
defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil
authorities.
(2) TERM OF PLAN.—The plan required under
paragraph (1) shall cover at least five years.”
Oh, one more thing–i’ve thought for a while now that Solidarnosc had it right–set up separate and parallel structures to help people directly–since the govt is not responsive anymore–a healthcare pool open to all Americans and cheaper than all the rest because of its size, for instance.
Would that help? Or is buying into any of the flawed systems we have now just further enabling those with more influence and money and power?
I will go read him. So I am sorry we went into such dark material since we need to draw somehope from one another — especially because I must go now and feed my beautiful children. What do we do? INvestigate. Prosecute. Share this information with everyone -so it becomes the norm to see this rather than the exception. enlist evangelicals. Enlist conservatives and libertarians. Those of you who live in New York — show up with us next dec 6 at noon! others contact Barbara -=- now it is standupfortheconstitution.org. Send money for the Freedom Chest. see yourself as the agent of change. We can turn it around but to sdo so we need to act like it is an emergency because it is. Thank you so so much all of you — you know I would only tear myself away for the kids since they are why i do this, most of all….love naomi
Riesz Fischer @ 81
It doesn’t have to be Bush who does it. He’s just a puppet anyway. His annointed successors are waiting in the wings, and not all of them have an R after their name.
naomi wolf @ 44
Bolded in case anyone missed it.
That’s entirely true about about IBM and the Nazi’s, and they weren’t the only ones; there was Standard Oil; and the fact that the German citizens knew enough to go the the Ford Motor Company plants in Germany (which were building military trucks) to wait out the allied bombing because they knew the allies had orders to stay away
CTuttle @ 67
Great now you got me depressed why do you think my family left Mexico? Well that and my Grandfather fought a duel.
CTuttle @ 67
he’s NOT correct, democracy is the natural state of society, they all work towards the common good, they don’t all work toward the good of an outside “provider”
fascism is a man made phenomonon and is put there by the gready, accepted by the weak
thanks for being here, Naomi! may your kids eventually inherit the world they’re meant to, and not this corporatist nightmare…
naomi wolf @ 55
is there a link to this clip?…I can’t find it
I am looking forward to seeing you next Wed night speaking at Kepler’s in Palo Alto. Your book sparked me out of my outrage-depleted doldrums and got me writing letters and mouthing off again.
I have a wild-ass idea that I sent to sitdownfor theconstitution.org: I was thinking about a demonstration to demand restoration of the US Constitution and the rule of law that involves taking a copy of the Constitution from Constitution Hall in Philadelphia and delivering it to the Capitol Building in Washington DC…I’m imagining something like the passing of the Olympic Torch or something…with the theme of THIS is our true National Treasure.
Naomi, thank you for being here.
I can understand how the general populace could largely be lulled into not noticing incremental changes toward fascism, but somehow I expect more from our elected representatives. I just listened earlier today to Ed Schultz interviewing Debbie Wasserman Schultz in regard to her defense of the leadership of Congress taking impeachment of the VP off the table. I understand her point of view, and agree that impeachment virtually consumes all the time and the air for lawmakers when it’s pursued. OTOH, I think there is an awful lot that she does not understand.
For one thing, she seems to give no value to pursuit of the truth about how we got to where we are today. She doesn’t seem to give credibility to the value of investigations of wrongdoing or the deterent value of holding parties accountable for their own acts. She doesn’t think that people want to know any of these things, and for some reason, she seems to think that it’s not important or healthy to address the balance of power within our own government. Since it’s now tipped too much toward the Executive Branch, I say it’s out of whack.
I used to like Wasserman Schultz, she was so emphatic and such an obvious talent. What has happened to her? She seems to have caught the inside the beltway disease, perhaps eaten too many wienies. And she’s not alone. Several other of my faves have recently shown their clay feet. What is wrong with these people and do you have any suggestions about how to stop it from further infecting our Congress and our friends and neighbors?
Welcome back, Ms. Wolf. I am into ” The End of America” and, like your previous visits here, I’m both shocked and gratified to see all this material put together in one place. Thank you so much for this.
I’m afraid that we have lost the “Beacon of Liberty” image altogether. Have you found the same thing?
Will be seeing you at Keplers on Wednesday. Can’t wait.
Thanks so much for visiting!
Thanks, Naomi. Coming from someone with a well-defined writing voice like yours, it is much appreciated. And for all the mom’s in the audience, if you haven’t read Naomi’s book on her journey to motherhood, you really should. Some wonderful stuff there as well.
Arkenor @ 86
Are you saying some of the Democratic presidential candidates are fascists? I’ve been pretty disappointed with the Dems lately but I don’t see any of them as having fascist tendancies– at least not any of the candidates or the leadership.
I think if we weather the current regime we’ll be safe– for now.
…um, folks…? I think she’s gone (see comment 87)…
Fly-by and I don’t think it’s OT–just got a call from my daughter who took my 4-yr-old grandson to Bee Movie this afternoon. Right in the middle of the previews was–wait for it–a music video called Citizen Solder. Targeted to the kids touting the National Guard. Apparently also available on the NG website.
Targeting 4-year-olds. Daughter Sunshine told her son not to bee-bop to it, it was govt propaganda. A couple of mothers bundled up their kids and left. Much muttering in the theatre.
Right up there in the Hall of Shame of BushCo ideas.
As Daughter Sunshine said, Canada’s lookin’ better and better.
We are in endless war with EastAsia. Thank you Naomi, for your voice!
Ms. Wolf,
Even here in Alaska, progressive talk shows and blogs are addressing the important messages in your book. I haven’t gotten it yet – the book – but were you influenced at all by Wilhelm Reich’s The Mass Psychology of Fascism?
Yeah, keep waiting for the clergy to do something. As a recipient of their homophobia all my life, I gave up waiting years ago.
I remember seeing priests and nuns pictured at civil rights marches in the ’60’s. They’re gone now. Too busy running scared from accusations of pedophilia to remember anything about social justice.
And, how about the brilliant leadership in Rome now? Oh yeah. Keep waiting.
ohmygod, Prairie Sunshine…that’s SO effing scary. (it’s mitigated somewhat by the mothers’ reaction, though.)
Ed*ard Teller @ 101
hi ed*ard teller, as always great to see you
quick question;
quite a few months ago you and I were going back and forth about fascism in this country, I was saying we are heading down the road to fascism and you at the time didn’t think it was a realistic theory
have you changed your mind?
The end of America, as we know it, will come with the collapse of our financial system.
The sooner we close down the Federal Reserve System and return to sound financial practices, the sooner America gets its Magic back.
Naomi you were on the No Fly list I wonder if you would have standing to challege the nofly list in a court case?
At least as how it is applied to liberals and I presume not for Hardcore Righties!
Sure the terroist selection critera must remain top secret. But how is Bush going to connince a Judge that you are an Al Quieda? Bush will have to admit that he is targeting liberals!
File the case now while we still have a somewhat independent Judicary.
I and many here will help fund this court challenge. After all I might be next….if the FBI is taking me seriously about what I write.
God I hope I am on their Radar it would make my mom so proud!
Last night the Moyers’ Journal had a great interview that compared our plight to the rise & fall of Rome. The speak, Caghill noted 2 factors that are very similiar: the huge income gap between the rich and poor (note our tax inequities) and the demonization of the ‘barbarians’, as in immigrants. You would think with some of the “pay attention” information coming out we would begin to get some serious push back. I’m hoping for some heft in the impeach Cheney action.
perris @ 90
I would point out that history has consistently trended towards fascism, in varying degrees, generally resulting in the fall of empires. Only open rebellion has toppled them, and, unfortunately ushered in a dark era… We’ve not learned the lessons of history…
um, FOLKS? I really do think Ms. Wolf has left the building…! (comments #87 and CHS’ goodbye at 97…)
thank you annagranfors
bhatten @ 104
Kucinich really read the articles well :)
perris @ 104
yes. but there’s hope…
So creeping fascism is like putting a frog in cool water and slowly raising the temperature until it’s boiling. The wive’s tale is that the frog won’t ever notice…
In the case of the USA, though, the fascism would either have to creep between two different administrations, or the administration would have to refuse to leave-an act that would be a jolting temperature increase.
EPUoosville
The OTHER Naomi (Klein) has a Spanish translation of The Shock Doctrine seen in a bookstore in a village in northern Spain. Just thought you’d want to know.
Earlier this week, I wrote this to one of my Senators:
- Tom
CTuttle @ 67
Haven’t read Mailer on that point, but it is a good point.
A vast portion of our national economic and social life is lived in institutions (corporations, businesses, mom and pop grocery store jobs) in which there is an authoritarian command hierarchy. You may if you are lucky have a voice, but someone else, not elected, always has the last word.
The number of people who daily live inside an institution of democracy… I mean a city council, a legislature, or the like… is miniscule. Such people are almost freaks. We call them politicians.
What could be more “natural” for the corporate authoritarian system to dominate public political life, just as it dominates and shapes every day life and social norms for most people?
Sustaining democracy at the national level would require that people were involved in democratic decision making in their daily life… that there were institutions of democracy that we experienced every week in our personal lives… and that we expected to see replicated at the largest scale. That is emphatically not the case.
Bosses and bureaucracies have routine arbitrary authority over most people’s lives. Those corporate and workplace institutions believe that they are “normal”, and inform their employees that they are “normal”, and pay their employees salaries and give them health benefits to earn their gratitude and their sense of dependency. Corporate thinking is everywhere. (My life is immersed in it too!)
Given the reality of the absence of day to day experience of democracy and voting and collective decision making, it is no surprise that the corporate model of governance seems normal and finds little resistance as it creeps into the oval office.
What IS a Congress, relative to your experience of daily life? We all know who and what a boss is, and what the corporation’s human resources department is. We all think we understand therefore what a President and a Presidential Administration is. But where do we have little Congresses in our daily life that touch us and that we participate in. Except for a few city council buffs, and the odd New England Town meeting, there is no democracy on the streets in every day social life. No wonder what goes on in Congress seems arcane and far removed from anything we’d admire. It is, quite literally, incomprehensible from the perspective of most people.
Add to this the fact that most of the economic activity of the country takes place in command and control corporations and we can see what a tiny and increasingly irrelevant place democracy plays in the economic center of gravity of the nation, how divorced it is from day to day experience, and how marginalized that lack of resonance with real life makes an institution like Congress or City Hall.
Now of course European social democracy recognizes this danger and attempts to bring authoritarian corporate entities under the direct control of a democracy. I don’t know whether there is any more experience of actual democracy on the street however.
If you would like to preserve democracy you would have to mandate not only voting, but attendance at yearly town meetings, school board meetings, whatever. You would have to percolate actual democratic institutions and practices down to the grass roots level. You’d have to mandate some elements of democracy even in the corporations of America. You’d have to actually give shareholders some of their hypothetical power on governance and policy issues or even (shock!) institute elements of workplace democracy.
What would the world look like if democracy was a way of life instead of a name we assigned to largely fascist corporate Western nations like the U.S., England and France? Aw hell, now I’m talking like a radical. But you can’t expect democracy to survive when elected politicians are its few and last practitioners. Gradually inevitably the system of governance at the national and global level must come to mirror the system of governance that people experience in their day to day lives. That system is a corporate authoritarian system, growing more authoritarian every day, and it spells the eventual end to the shell of formal democracy that remains in the U.S. today.
This is a big part of the reason I remain in the Reserves. I keep thinking that if any shit is going to come down, if I remain in the Reserves I am far more likely to hear about it beforehand and then be able to respond appropriately…
musicsleuth @ 63
In this country, anyone can be a poll watcher, but you have to receive training. You should be able to find out how to become an election monitor from your state’s Secretary of State office. There are two terms to ask about: Poll worker, and poll watcher, IIRC. One requires more training than the other. I highly recommend both. It is an important part of understanding how our democracy works– or doesn’t work.
Bob in HI
Bob a Full post on this subject would be good minority hassles by the GOP could be a problem especially in hispanic areas.
The recent spate of GOP arrests indicate that they are far more interested in watching poles.
-GSD
I watch Washington Journal every morning on CSPAN. Lately, almost every call from all walks of life, across party lines, is suspicious and discontent with what is going on. Every other call used to be, “Ah suppot the Preszident”…not anymore. I would say it seems like 1 out of 4 or 5 calls…maybe. I still have hope. Americans are actually quite politically lazy, but they are also very strong willed once they realize they are getting screwed, and it seems they are realizing it. There will always be a minority who will be true followers, but I don’t think a complete takeover will work in the long run.
GSD @ 120
Didn’t Supreme Court judge Renquist start out as a GOP Poll watcher er discourager?
GSD @ 118
lol
What an excellent post and excellent comments. I skimmed it a second time just to make sure that I didn’t miss anything. Chacounne at 37 (aka Heather) thank you for sharing your husbands story about torture with us.
LS @ 119
you’re right. and I think the calls coming in on the Democratic line sound
a) better informed than ever before and
b) progressive.
GSD @ 118
Polish Americans, or actual Poles from Poland?
Riesz Fischer @ 125
Pole dancers.
Very OT…just a place to vent…I was leaving work yesterday (a non-profit) and saw a lovely Black woman I like very much driving her car with a Bush/Cheney sticker. I was in shock, then angry: today just sad. What could she see in them?
marymccurnin @ 127
Pole dancers watchers…
marymccurnin @ 127
Ouch, I resemble that… ;-)
we really have to start calling this administration the fascist party
this will give republicans an excuse to join hands with democrats, they need an excuse
nobody wants to have invested so much of their self value in a party and been wrong and they will deny the obvious until it’s far too late
this everyone knows as cognitive dissonance, there is also “escalating commitment”
escalating commitment would be that phenomenon where you are forced to abandon your investment or re invest even more then you ever imagined the project was worth even if your project had success
so we need to give the republicans an excuse to join hands with us
we begin by referencing this administration as fascists, we state LOUD AND CLEAR that they are NOT republicans, we call them the fascists they are, we are at the ready with references, we use instances like “these people are giving our assets away to corporations and calling it privitization…THAT IS FASCISM”
and we don’t relent, we call them fascists at every waking opportunity
then we form a new coalition that we would call “the constitutional party”
I do NOT mean “the constitutional wing of the democratic party”, republicans would still feel like failures and they will refuse, you will be able to be a “republican constitutionalist” AND a “democratic constitutionalist”
we MUST give them an excuse to join hands, we must get THEM to start saying this administration is NOT representative of the republican party
perris @ 130
This is good.
New Thread Dudes
Any system that puts, what, 200,000-odd of its citizens on a watch-list when its trying to find at most 200 evildoers can’t be trusted to tie its own shoes. It’ll probably tie the right and left shoes together, trip, and knock itself silly on the pavement.
Maybe we should arrange to get everyone on the watch-list and bury the system under its own steroid-powered muscularity.
Sorry; I’m watching Dr. Who and it’s hard to think clearly.
perris @ 131
You know they are in every meaningful sense of the word fascists, and that’s what I call them, but I don’t know what good the label will do.
As noted above, people need to question the fascism in their own work place and actually have a problem with THAT before they are going to have a problem with fascism in the White House.
I don’t know how you get the happy corporate worker drones (like my coworkers) with their 401K and health benefits to see that the deal they have personally struck with the corporation is profoundly anti-democratic… and that this is a BAD THING. Because I know many such people and they think it’s a pretty fair deal. And if people don’t get that they have no democracy in their own daily life, that they are personally entering an authoritarian fascist reality when they wave their pass card and enter their office then it doesn’t matter what we successfully and accurately label the Bush Administration as being because people are going to say “what’s so bad about that? Sure I give up some freedom, but I’ve got good benefits. That’s life!”
In the end, it’s the fascism in the office, and absence of democracy in our neighborhoods and offices, that is the deep problem that prevents us from comprehending, see or acting on the fascism in Washington.
(Oh, and thanks to Naomi Wolfe for raising this topic!)
behindthefall @ 134
That would be 800,000 citizens on a watch list. I sometimes wonder if I can get back to NOLA to see my family.
So totally on topic ;-)
Video of a talk by Naomi Wolf
The End of America: Letter of warning to a Young Patriot
“Funny, I was invited to engage on C Span with Viet Dinh, one of the architects of the patriot act — a lovely gentleman who helped craft a document that will live on in hell, which just goes to show you how good people can be seduced by terrible agendas”.
Dign is in fact the poster child for Naomi’s 10 Steps to Facism that the United States completed long ago.
Viet Dinh aka Dong Dong Phung Viet was never anything like a good people and he was definitely not seduced into his gutting of the Constitution.
By lovely gentleman, Naomi must mean that Dinh wears a suit, and has learned to tie a little windsor knot. He is as ruthless as any of Hitler’s circle was and did enormous damage to America while at DOJ.
He did a lot more damage than architect the Patriot Act (about 450 pages) which he directed to be placed on the desk of Senators at 3AM the morning the vote on the first version was due so that they couldn’t read it. It is par for the course now that they read a fraction of any bill that they vote on anyway.
How Would a Patriot Act Glenn Greenwald
Dinh worked fervently while at DOJ to foist the same atrocities on all Americans that were imposed on his father who was a political prisoner who was a fugitive when Dinh and his mommy got on a boat.
The world and this country would have been a much better place had Dinh continued to pick strawberries all his life as he did as a boy.
One of his sisters remained in a filthy refugee camp in Hong Kong most of Dign’s adult life.
I wouldn’t characterize Viet Dinh as a lovely gentleman. After being lucky enough to be plucked out of chaos in Viet Nam as a boy, he has done consistently evil things as has John Yoo and he has moved the paradigm towards achieving #10 of Naomi’s 10 points.
Dign was the architect of many many initiatives to gut the Bill of Rights and the Fourth Amendment and your rights to discovery and a fair trial.
He did much to spur the fascist round up of material witnesses that Moooookasey blessed, and he did much to spur the idea of an Imperial Presidency with an Imperial DOJ.
Dign should be remembered as one of the architects of the demise of the U.S. Constitution, and enemies of freedom and there is no fiber of democracy in Viet Dign.
He also helped politicize the DOJ by advertising for administration dolts as candidates for judge on DOJs website while allowing no space fo the opposition to these dolts. Brett Cavanaugh is one of them–your 9th Circuit Bush flunkie in the flesh. The DOJ website should not be a cheerleading site for Supreme Court candidates who would be vetted by a real Senate Judiciary in a country with real Democracy instead of the spineless toads that we have and a DOJ website is no place for backing an agenda to stack the Supreme Court with candidates as right winged as Clarence Thomas. That is exactly what Dign did on their website, and it is the clearest example of a conflict of interest I’ve ever seen when the DOJ advocates and runs a campagin for Supreme Court candidates.
Dinh’s testimony before Congress was simply embarassing in its simplicity. It was a rubberstamp of the Bushian concept of Al Quaeda.
One of his few clients in the very brief period of time Dinh tried to practice law in the real world was Thomas J. Sinoshi one of the architects of the HP pre-texting scandal.
Dihn is your archetype “Imperial Presidency promoter” and “Telco Immunity wiretap every citizen advocate”.
Naomi
Your title “The End of America” (no question mark) indicates you believe fascism here is a done deal. The sub-title, a warning to a young patriot indicates your hope a fascist end may be avoided, though I get the feeling you think our chances of continuing as a democracy are less than 50%. Economics plays a large part. It seems we are in line for substantial economic pain.
Pakistan is an instructive example. Musarraf is unpopular even amongst the military, but they enforce his decrees. We would not be in trouble if law enforcement agencies do not go along with a takeover, but they will go along just as our military attacked Iraq although a substantial number of generals thought we did not have enough troops to pull it off. If Bush or Cheney gives the order, our military will bomb Iran.
Which brings us to the oft asked question-what to do? I’d feel better if we had a way to ask our law enforcers if they might consider disobeying an order to impose martial law. I don’t see a way of doing that, so I am inclined to see our gooses as being cooked just as I have no doubt this discussion and comments are on a government hard drive some place.
“pre 911 wiretapping…” diogenes
Mark Klein, the former AT&T technician who is now in DC lobbying Congress against retroactive immunity for the telecoms, quoted someone saying it isn’t a few international calls the government is wiretapping, the wiretapping involves a “country-tap,” meaning everyone’s emails and internet activity in the country…massively illegal violation of civil liberties.
I would interject one idea that when or the question of timing when masses of people revolt depends on the archetypal “spirit of the time” or zeitgeist. Archetypal forces are cyclical and recur with astonishing order and precision. Look at the 1960’s and the world wide rebellions that took place then.
Brett Cavanaugh has not one nanosecond of trial experience in a federal courtroom. Welcome to the Federal Judiciary.
I should add that Brett Cavanaugh is very typical of the Federal Judiciary. He was a Bush flunkie, and has ZERO–that means zip, nada, he ain’t never done it experience litigating in a federal courtroom.
Cavanaugh has never tried a case in a federal courtroom, or possibly any other courtroom and his fat butt sits on the D.C. Circuit to do Bush’s bidding.
As we all knew, the Democratic juggernaut for Telco Immunity is a done deal and one of the first to announce her lickass Bush support for it is none other than She Fein (stein. Feinstein has jumped your bones and screwed you again on legislation that is integral to parking you in Naomi’s Fascist State.
Dianne Feinstein — Bush’s key ally in the Senate — to support telecom amnesty
Feinstein is not merely voting reliably for the most extremist Bush policies, though she is doing that. Far more than that, she has become, time and again, the linchpin of Bush’s ability to have his most radical policies approved by the Senate.
Could the universe be any larger between what Feinstein’s constituents want and what she is doing in the Senate? Here are the latest views of California voters of the President to whose agenda Feinstein is displaying such ferocious fidelity:
Do you approve or disapprove of the job George W. Bush is doing as President?
Approve — 28%
Disapprove — 70%
Among California Democrats, a grand total of 9% approve of Feinstein’s beloved President; 90% disapprove. Obviously, nothing could be less relevant to Feinstein than the views of her constituents, but still, the disparity between what they believe and what she is doing is just striking, even for the Beltway.
naomi wolf cries ‘wolf!’
with respect, you go grrl!
mike@116, imo, insightful.
mahalo! fdl and all.
peas!
No doubt. Just don’t forget the “shitstorm theorum” TM:
Sounds about right.
Thank you Naomi for another wonderful book!
I’m sorry I missed the real-time action today but I’ve read your book three times now (getting ready for Turkey Day debates, you now?! :)
and I’ve sent copies to my elected officials.
I like the underlying optimism which you must have or you wouldn’t have bothered to write a book instead of moving to the South of France and washing your hands of the whole disaster.
That’s the same feeling that I get when I come here every day, to vent and complain but to recharge with an optimism that Americans have a revolutionary DNA and we just need to tap into it again.
As Churchill reportedly said “Americans will always do the right thing – after they’ve exhausted all other alternatives”
Thank you Naomi, you are a true patriot!
perris @ 33
I would not be surprised at all.
Steve E @ 146
To that I’d add Katrina as a trial experiment of the public’s response to abandonment by the federal government in a crisis.
Or was that event just pure ineptitude on the Neocon Republicans’ part? Same end, different means.
Leadership can mean a lot to these issues, or, like Brutus, bury them. Ms. Clinton getting caught planting questions at a venue in Iowa is a minor but good example, and one Rahm, Nancy and Steny should study carefully.
Bushistas tolerate hypocrisy. They thrive on it when it comes accompanied by pandering to their prejudices. Hence, the Rove model of feeding red meat to the 24 percenters.
Liberals loathe hypocrisy, lying inconsistency, and the politicians who sell it. They won’t fund it, vote for it, or support it.
Earl, I so hope you are right about Liberals. Reading the cave-ins on immunity and the AG has left me wondering why so little opposition/what is the imperative to give in so easily. Thanks for the optimistic note.
Ms. Feinstein-Lieberman, Nancy Pelosi, Rahm, et al are not liberals. They are part of the Democratic Machine. Feinstein-Lieberman, in particular, is about as consistent a Bush supporter as Kneepads Lieberman.
The challenge for Liberals is epitomized by Donna Edwards’ campaign supported by FDL’s particpants. Vote out Bush Dogs and machine politicians of any stripe; vote in those willing to pursue change for the better, not just their own pocketbooks or power.
naomi wolf @ 44
And who would have told Musharraf about Abraham Lincoln suspending habeas corpus, and other Civil Liberties during the Civil War? Musharraf used this example to indicate that he was justified in his actions IF it protected the nation.
It’s almost as if John Yoo was a consultant!
You hear the same thing when right-wingers say that the Constitution isn’t a suicide pact. In other words fear trumps freedom.
Riesz Fischer @ 82
There could be a substitute by another, more popular, individual. One who believes that military and police power should be ustilized domestically against certain “dangerous” internal forces. One that is populist, but only towards certain sectors (not women, immigrants, unions, those with pre-existing health problems, those that use public facilities like public schools or libraries, etc.).
People often say “follow the money”…but equally important is to “follow the movements” that associate with a charismatic figure. These may serve as the machines that are granted privekleges in the cabinet or government for their support. For example, Bush created a whole Office of Faith-Based Initiatives to dispense largesse to those that came out during his political campaigns. Blackwater got contracts in exchange for Erik Princes political contributions.
So look at the “supporters” too!
Prairie Sunshine @ 100
Here is a YouTube of that Citizen Soldier
I would really think thatit would have a restricted rating for the violence in it. Lots of hard-core right wing supporters commenting on it in the YouTube comments section that fail to understand the History of the National Gaurd and how it has eventually become just another part of the Army….even to the point where Governors and State Legislatures have no control over their assignments.
One frog in the hot pot may just quietly go to sleep. But a pot full of patriots will not.
I hear our leaders poo poo conspiracy theories, but I believe they are completely tuned in to what Naomi talks about. They know what is happening and are preparing for it…preparing for their own survival. They are putting tools in place for their own survival. Iraq is a great big trial run (even coincidentally) for what will happen here in the usa when the frogs leap out of the hot pot. The frogs will have a steep learning curve at being effective patriots, while the administration will already be up to speed, given their training at rooting out other patriotic movements in Iraq and around the world…in their war on terror (or freedom). How ever you want to put it.