Economists like to talk about externalities. An externality is just a benefit or a negative which the originator either can’t be paid for (if it’s a positive externality) or whose cost they don’t bear (if it’s a negative externality). Pollution is a negative externality – the cost of air pollution in terms of asthma and deaths is not born by big air polluters like coal plants, for example. Public roads provide positive externalities – they enable commerce and industry to ship goods and gain profits and those who build the road don’t directly receive a cut off the new business they make possible. Another example of a positive externality is good health care – the value of people not being sick does not go to health care providers, but to the employers of the healthy people.
When you’re designing tax policy a general principle is that you want to tax people the cost of their negative externalities. So, if an industry pollutes, they should pay the cost of cleaning up the pollution and the healthcare costs of those who are made sick by their pollution. Not only is this fair, but it makes markets function better because it means the true costs of an economic activity are actually accounted for where they belong. In a pollution scenario the costs of polluting are born by individuals, hospitals, other business in terms of absenteeism, and by governments who pay for health care – not by the polluting company. Since they aren’t paid for by the polluter, that polluter’s goods are underpriced – they don’t include all the costs of the activity.
A good which is underpriced will be overproduced.
This is also an argument for differential taxation. Let’s take railways versus roads. Roads – or rather cars, trucks and so on – produce a lot more pollution than railways. In addition they are, in effect, subsidized by public expenditures building and maintaining the road network.. On the other hand railways move people with a lot fewer negative externalities – fewer accidents, less pollution, less noise. However railways bear much more of their own infrastructure cost because they have to build and maintain their own railways or rent the use of them from other rail lines that do. When you add up all the numbers, rail travel costs less than road travel, but that cost isn’t born equally with people who travel by road. (Trucks, for example, are effectively massively subsidized). The same is true of airline travel, which is subsidized far, far more than rail travel. The cost to society of moving a thousand people or a thousand tons by train is a lot less than the cost to society of a thousand people in car or plane. But because railways are subsidized much less it winds up costing much more. However, since the real costs of rail are less than the real costs of air or road travel, it should cost less. The current market and government regime of subsidies doesn’t do that. Instead it underprices road and air travel and overprices rail travel.
A good which is underpriced will be overproduced. And a good, like rail travel, which is overpriced, will be underproduced.
This is also the argument for subsidizing the arts, universities and so on. There would have been no Massachusetts miracle without universities, no Silicon Valley without universities. Museums, theaters and so on bring economic activity to the communities that host them. But most of the money they bring to a community they don’t capture. Restaurants, hotels, cab drivers, airlines and a host of other businesses receive the vast majority of the money that a museum or a theater district, say, is responsible for. How many people visit New York or Toronto for theater? How much money do they spend? And how much of that do the theaters themselves get? Since positive externalities are produced by those institutions – externalities they cannot capture, it is not unreasonable to subsidize them some portion of how much extra economic activity they bring to their communities.
It is the job of government to produce or subsidize that which has strong positive externalities. The reason for this is that the government doesn’t have to know who is going to benefit, only that someone does. It’s not necessary for government to know which specific businesses will benefit from a good university in town, it is only necessary to know that some will, and that you’re taxing them. On the other hand, in a pure for-profit university, it would be necessary to charge enough people who would benefit. That would mean the students themselves (rather than the businesses who also benefit from having educated workers) and those businesses who are given access to research. The result of this would be fewer students getting a unversity education (because they are paying full price, even though much of the benefit will be received by the businesses who hire them) and research will not be widely disseminated but will be used only by those businesses who can afford to pay. Unfortunately the greatest economic benefit is that research be widely disseminated so that anyone can use it, because you never really know who might be able to profit. All those businesses that could never profit, or that never existed, because they never knew of the new research, are part of the cost of private research.
An entirely private university system in which research is also private, then, produces much less benefit for society as a whole. If everyone had to pay Harvard rates for an education, there’d be a lot fewer educated people. And as we move towards a research system in which private interests pay, and lock up the research, there is less and less benefit to society.
Subsidies are a problem when they go out of whack with positive externalities. If something produces a dollar of positive externalities and you’re subsidizing it for more than a dollar, that’s a problem. More practically when the government can’t capture enough benefit through taxes to pay for the subsidy, it’s time to stop. So if the government has a recapture taxation rate of, say 20%, then you need $5 in positive externalities to pay for $1 of subsidies.
The higher the taxation rate, then, the more subsidies are possible, not just because the government has more money, but because they become economically viable for the government to pursue.
This doesn’t apply to negative externalities, mind you. There is no reason not to tax a company for the full value of its negative externalities, not just a percentage of them, unless it is also producing positive externalities you want to capture. Still, as a matter of simplicity, it is probably better to tax for the full value, then subsidize, so you know what the value of each is.
This probably strikes a lot of people as messing with the free market. And it can be – but done properly it’s actually the opposite. It makes markets more efficient by making them price things properly. A market which doesn’t price in the cost of pollution isn’t operating with all the facts and is thus underpricing whatever it produces. Likewise people who produce a positive externality the value of which they can’t capture deserve to be compensated for making society, literally, richer. If they aren’t compensated for it, they’ll stop doing it.
Related posts:
- Baucus Bill Automatically Cuts Exchange Subsidies to Avoid Early Year Deficits
- Michele Bachmann Compares Progressive Taxation to Slavery and Says Lots of Other Crazy Shit
- Bank of America Screws Taxpayers Coming and Going
- Late Night: Fox & Friends Have No Clue About School
- CMS: Public Option Much Cheaper Than Private Insurance, and Would Make Private Plans Cheaper, Too





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zed!
Me go tell em downstairs.
Yay, new thread!
Hey, Ian.
FunnyDiva
back to read as soon as I finish w/ Dave Niewert’s posts about Ron Paul…
sorry to stray slightly off-topic
here — and so early in the thread. . .
but we so regularly bash old
media around here — that when
they get it “right”, we ought
to toot their horn for them — as
we ought, for tomorrow’s n.y.t.
an amazing, disgusting, gut-
wrenching, well-documented
account of how, and why, our
troops are likely to face fire
from our OWN weapons, sold to
insurgents, by our OWN guys in
baghdad — in some cases from
our OWN armories. . .
this is sickening.
simply sickening.
Awesome post, Ian!
An economist said yesterday that the best thing that could happen to the US is that the dollar fall, because it will encourage more purchase of US made goods overseas. Is that true? Are we all going to have to be serfs first, before a change for the better? How do we get manufacturing jobs back into this country – or is that a pipe dream? Sigh. It feels like we built a really expensive house in a really poor neighborhood, and now the value of it is the same as the other houses in the neighborhood.
This probably strikes a lot of people as messing with the free market.
Why? Wouldn’t that be pay as you play?
LS @ 6
And we got stuck with a sub prime mortgage.
Sorry Ian marginaly OT we started spraying for bugs back in Northern Illinois when I was away at college. I met some of these kids later working at crap a** jobs. The asthma rates were astonding, my home growing up was a woods and corn field but it became a subarban mess with bug spraying.
I wonder if you have any hard information on autism rates which were also going up although to be fair the diagnoises for autism has gone up.
Great post, Ian. If economics had been presented like this, I might have taken a course, back when.
Funnydiva2002 @ 3
Are you on face book?
Ian, thank you for taking such complex issues and making them understandable. Do you teach economics?
Hmmm. Positive externalities…
So the sports-team owners who want public $$$ to build venues for their teams (and for them to directly profit from) are basically telling the taxpayers to pay for a hypothetical positive externality or they’ll leave town? Or am I not understanding the concept?
FunnyDiva
former resident of the 2 Bitchin’ publicly financed sports stadiums and 2 excellent, much-more-privately funded Arts venues.
Ian, this is a GREAT post
everyone that reads my comments here at the lake know that I always say corporations have to pay their own bills
a corporation relies on public roads for their workforce and for their deliveries, they rely on public transportation for people to buy their goods and for people to travel to and from work
they also rely on the health of their workforce
obviously they rely on high quality air, clean water and healthy food, if their workforce or their buyers aren’t healthy they don’t sell the same amount of goods
this is what most people don’t understand, that taxes on corporations aren’t really taxes they are bills being called, just like their rent and their electric bill, the health of the infrastructure and the health of the workforce is a bill that corporations rely and need to pay
if they don’t pay then they are on welfare
we have to start re framing the debate when it comes to corporate tax, we need to start calling it “corporate expenses”, “corporate usage bill”
I like that;
“corporate usage bill”, then when they ask for a reduction we will have the bargaining chip of calling it welfare
common services that everyone uses and needs are known as “commons”.
“commons” should never EVER be privatized, that’s fascism…when a good or service is required there is no reason to price effectively, if a corporation controls that service they will price as high as possible.
this is the reason privatization doesn’t work, corporations price according to what the market will pay, they do almost never price according to what a product or service cost
if the cost of producing an item were the factor of price then football tickets would cost about 1/50th the cost of baseball tickets, instead they cost ten times
and Nikes would be ten dollars instead of 100 dollars
corporations can NEVER be the sole provider of “commons”
now that is NOT soc^ial&sm since a corporation can COMPETE with a commons
for instance, private industry CAN provide education but they can NOT be the sole provider
if they were the sole provider only the wealthy would get to educate their kids
I could go on but Ian, this is a post very dear to my heart and I really loved the read
Ian, great explanation. Yes, corporations and industries should pay the true cost to produce their services. But if any political candidate said these things the rightwing would hyperventilate and throw themselves to floor having a tantrum.
Actually, that would be entertaining to watch.
marymccurnin @ 7
Government taxation or subsidies, to a lot of people, are always distorting and bad for markets. I don’t agree, but it’s a viewpoing that a lot of people ascribe to.
Things Come Undone @ 11
No…guess I’d better bite the proverbial bullet and just do it. We’ve got to get “Cat in Seattle” from the last thread into the gang also.
my email is the same as my handle (above)
at Yahoo.
Great meet-up today. Maybe if we start a semi-regular meeting we could merge with/revive the local Drinking Liberally folks…
FunnyD
LS @ 6
The US has been living beyond its means. One of the things that will happen, as a result, is the dollar dropping. But it’s not enough by itself. According to my friend Stirling, his estimate is that 1 dollar should be worth about 4 Yuan, for example.
It will help manufacturing a lot, aye. However it will also mean a substantial drop in the US standard of living.
But the dollar is far overvalued compared to both the Yuan and Yen (and various other currencies, mostly asian).
Didn’t have to be that way, but the US has run up the credit card and had the good times. Now the nasty phone calls are beginning. Soon, the repo man.
Later the men with baseball bats.
Things Come Undone @ 9
I think there’s a fair bit of evidence on Asthma. I don’t know about autism, however.
Perris, yes it is a form of welfare. Take Walmart, for example. They hand their new employees forms to apply for state aid rather than offer their families health insurance. That’s corporate welfare. As long as we have private health care, the biggest, most profitable companies had damn well better provide it and accept it’s a cost of doing business.
nolo @ 4
This should be a talking point by our Democratic Presidential Contendors just how many guns are unacountable total?
Just how many Americans have been killed by M 16s which we use vs AK 47 bullets?
How many of these M 16 bullets came from newer guns whiich I presume we sold?
Are the Bushies even tracking these numbers and if not who’s Butt are they protecting?
Why have FISA spy on Americans if we won’t ask Iraq cops a lie detector test question of will you or won’t you later join the rebels and or sell your gun to the rebels?
Loo Hoo. @ 12
I don’t. I’m an autodidact and mostly self taught. Had to figure it out myself, I guess, which makes it easier to try and explain to others.
Working up to a post on rent. That’s going to be painful to simplify and stay accurate.
Funnydiva2002 @ 13
Depends on the size of the externality and the subsidy. But it could be worth it to the city, aye. Or, if you’re spending too much and it’ll take way too long to regain the money, it might not.
Ian, what is your take on the Federal Reserve. There is so much controversy out there about it. What do you think? Does it hurt or help?
I always learn so much from your posts, Ian. This is a particularly good one.
Thanks.
perris @ 14
Yes. Tax is something you pay because of something you get. Those who don’t get that should consider living in Somalia. It’s an anarchists paradise in most places, after all.
Not a lot of billionaries though. I wonder why?
perris @ 14
Perris keep repeating this point late late night thread will let you repetion allows the memory to sink in.
The MSM will have to address this someday:)
Ian Welsh @ 16
we should ALWAYS “mess with the free market”
there is no such thing as a ‘free market”
if the market were “free”, big bussiness would buy small bussiness, they would dump their crap in our air, they would pour their waste in our water and they would create a robber baron society where there was the wealthy few and everyone else
without “regulation” there wouldn’t be patent protection, there wouldn’t be police protection against theft, anyone could walk in, murder the ceo and take over that bussiness as if it were theirs
obviously, without regulation there is anarchy.
corporations make believe a market will moniter itself but that is IMPOSSIBLE
there is no such thing as a “free market”, it’s a myth corporations promote in order to stop paying their bills
Ian Welsh @ 16
Ian, wouldn’t you then say that a LOT of people have a really distorted view of a free market, or define it solely as The Free Market (R) (TM) that’s marketed by the very wealthy? Who, btw, always want a bail-out when they’re on the losing side of a market correction!
“freedom ain’t free”…
Oh yeah? Neither is a free market!
FunnyDiva
TheOtherWA @ 20
We just had a firepup meet in Seattle contact me or funny diva if you want to go to the next one no details yet but I think next month?
LS @ 24
I don’t have a hate on for the Federal Reserve. I think it needs to do its job and that Congress needs to let it do its job. Freddie and Fannie for a time were essentially creating huge amounts of money; then after that Wall Street was. The Fed lost control.
Mind you the Fed didn’t seem to care very much, and was pouring fuel on the fire.
I don’t think the fed is good or bad. It’s a powerful tool that can be used for good or ill.
The problem is that the Fed is operating in an environment where it is expected to do all the heavy lifting. Congress has abdicated its economic responsibilities. It would also help to have a rational international economic policy. Some new form of Bretton Woods.
Hard to justice to in a comment. For now, like most tools, the Fed can do great good or great harm. It depends how you use it. Overall Greenspan did great harm and Bernanke is too, imo.
Ian Welsh @ 23
Seems like TPtB in Seattle always way, waaaaay overestimate the benefits and underestimate the costs, especially over the long term.
FunnyD
Didn’t realize you’re self-taught in economics. I think that’s very cool, and even better that you take the time to share what you know with us here!
Ian Welsh @ 31
what would you think of states printing their own money at no interest?
when the fed prints money at interest the debt can never be paid, the money supply needs to constanty grow, if it’s printed at no interest debt can be paid and the money supply will grow according to produce rather then according to formual
Things Come Undone @ 30
Thanks, but I’m closer to Portland and went to that meetup last week. Photo here.
excellent post, ian — and i realize you
are, of necessity, speaking in general,
and therefor — rather absolute — terms,
here, but this bit seems not even generally
accurate, or sound:
i can think of a million benefits
that flow from science, howsoever
funded, and advanced, and reduced
to practice — the market already
possesses a very efficient mechanism
for alloacting innovation to its best
and highest uses. . . it is the market,
itself — the market for ideas.
similarly, i would take issue with
the idea that positive externalities
i.e., “public benefits“, if not
compensated — will cease:
that simply hasn’t happened — in over
100 years, and thousands of concrete
real world examples. if it occurs at
all — it is an exception, not the rule.
which all goes to reinforce the general rule.
please feel free to ignore me now.
i am really not looking for a fight — these
two points just strike me as non-supported.
p e a c e
– nolo
perris @ 28
Because their definition seems to be FM= profit when things are good, and dump the costs on the public when things aren’t, and especially make them cover our financial losses when we over-reach or bet wrong.
[spit]
FunnyDiva
Things Come Undone @ 21
i agree 1000%!
t h a n k s
Any hard numbers on health cost Ian? Or correlation between a lack of arts spending liberal eductaion and GOP voting?
RPG at the Seattle pup meet pointed out that those states that recieve tax dollars were more antitax than the payers.
Maybe we should do a liberal Atlas Shrug and freeze their staes cash? It would sure hurt Ron Paul!
It would also sure drop my tax burden I live in Seattle and was educated in the great state of Illinois!
Things Come Undone @ 30
Definitely, but we’ll understand if you don’t want to make a special $3.50 a gallon trip up from the Oregon Border!
FunnyD
Funnydiva2002 @ 29
To a lot of rich people a free market is just “a market the government doesn’t regulate or interfere in”. Unregulated markets tend towards monopolies or oligopolies, and that allows those who control them to extract monopoly profits (how much you going to pay for electricity/phone service/food/mecical care/water if you have only one company to get it from? In many cases you /must/ have those things, so whatever they ask.)
To keep a real free market almost always requires the government to keep any individual actor from gaining too much market power. Markets don’t always do this themselves.
Ian Welsh @ 40
they never do it themselves, big buys small if they can, big puts small out of bussiness if it can’t buy it
then when they stand all alone they charge as high as possible
“free market” to corporations means “regulate everything that will protect us but do not regulate us to protect them”
simple enough, without regulation there is anarchy, who could possibly argue the point?
perris @ 33
I’m not a fan. The thing about how the classic “debt as money creation” system worked is that it was based on assets. You could borrow against land and machinery, both of which were productive at the time the system was set up. So as more land/machinery came on line, so increased the money float.
The ideal is to keep the exansion of money/credit equal to the expansion of the productive base – neither larger nor smaller.
When the economy got financialized the link got broke. The amount of money is circulation now has no relation to the real productive economy an that’s the primary issue, not so much that money is created as debt.
i think this would only be true
of “utility goods” — electricity,
water, cable t.v. — not goods for
which the barrier to entry in the
relevant market is not impossibly
capital-constrained. . .
the general rule — for innovation,
science, new internet devices, health
care gizmos — is self regulating for this.
if it can be made cheaper, or better,
by someone else — it will be.
just my $0.02. . .
p e a c e
Ian Welsh @ 42
that’s a great explanation, thanx!
Things Come Undone @ 38
I’m pretty sure that there’s a correlation between education spending and econonmic health that is non trivial. Plenty of studies have been done saying “pollution costs X amount of dollars because it causes Y amount of health problems/absenteism etc…” Economists have done studies on the cost of automobile congestion and pollution as well, which is why most economists favour making driving during rush hour, for example, much more expensive (or the London experiment of making people pay to drive downtown, which has gone very well.)
The Power of Nightmares (not shown in the US)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm
and here is the link to the documentary:
http://www.archive.org/details…..Nightmares
Excellent post, Ian – should be required reading for voters.
And to our hostesses…
Naomi and Ian on the same night? You’re really getting me behind in my old-school (books) reading!
Thanks anyway…
nolo @ 43
Not necessarily. Why were there only 3 major car companies for over half a century? One you reach a certain level of concentration you have natural advantages of scale (and the ability to use predatory pricing, FUD, buyouts, legal strategies, IP laws, and regulatory strategies (ie. buy regulations) to freeze out opponents.
Ian, thanks for answering my comments.
nolo @ 37
Adding on to Great Ideas I never would have heard of without people like you is one of the reasons I’m at the Lake.
I like learning stuff! I like asking hard questions or tweaking things I learn to 11!
Ian Welsh @ 45
Helps that Londoners and even those in outlying “commuter” areas have very real, very feasible, very good alternatives to driving downtown. I used to have a 6-mile commute that took me 25 min to drive on a BAD day or 2 busses and 90 min on a GOOD day. And if I got to work early enough, I could park all day for free. I think I would even have driven myself in if I’d had to pay $50 or $100/mo to park. Public Transit just wasn’t worth the extra time!
FunnyDiva
Meanwhile, our four-year-old kids are being fed this when they are captive audiences in theatre to see Bee Movie.
Because of course Iraq is a right and noble war…
and the corruption’s all in our imagination, yes?
I’ll argue that the main over priced and underproduced item is the Iraq war. Followed by our penal and so called justice system.
Ian Welsh @ 40
So we are in a sense a capitive population as Chris in Paris at America Blog suggests as far as phone service and cable goes?
How are things in Canada on that front? Whats your immigration policy? I got some cash.
Ian Welsh @ 48
Thank you for that response, Ian! It’s the one I was groping for but couldn’t get to crystalize.
FunnyDiva
Prairie Sunshine @ 52
And the propaganda…it’s a figment of the Vast Left Wing Media-Controlling Conspiracy’s imagination!
FunnyD
Prairie Sunshine @ 52
you’ve got to be kidding!
what’s that word?
.
oh yeah INDOCTRINATION
Ian Welsh @ 22
Egad. You’re a phenomenon.
Funnydiva2002 @ 56
Hey kids…war…it’s just an extension of the games you play and the music you make.
Spit.
LS @ 46
Have you had a chance to watch this yet, LS?
Funnydiva2002 @ 51
Yup. If you don’t subsidize the cheap (for society way) people are forced to use the expnsive way.
Loo Hoo. @ 60
Nope, but I can’t wait!
What about things that are ‘over priced’ and ‘over produced’? Things like cuting taxes while starting wars.
Prairie Sunshine @ 52
That’s awful. In every way.
Bartering…I’m going back to bartering.
behindthefall @ 58
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Heh!!! Way to go!!
Prairie Sunshine @ 52
That’s some great 911 towers pr0n at the end, per Faludi.
Things Come Undone @ 54
http://www.canadaimmigrationvisa.com/visatype.html
And then of course there is housing, which has been over priced and over produced.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 53
So just imagine what that cash could do for heathcare imagine how many less sick days would there be if we had easy access universal healthcare for citizens
! That would have to increase our productivtity as workers the GOP is spiting the nose of its own business face. Are there any numbers?
There is an incredible amount of building of houses and roads, right now, here in Tejas. Gee, I wonder why?
And “plastic” (credit cards) which have most certainly been over priced and over produced.
LS @ 65
You’ll need ammunition and penicillin. Every time you go to a doctor or dentist, ask for a scrip for your emergency planning. Have it filled and on hand.
Ian Welsh @ 61
And when the way that’s expensive for “society” costs me personally /so much/ less than the cheap or best for “society” way, which way do I pick?
IOW there’s a limit to my altruism. Or a limit to how many extra miles or hours I’ll invest in the greater good.
FunnyD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 73
Dustin Hoffman was given good advice in “The Graduate” wasn’t he? Just never knew how crazy it would all get from back then to now…or did they?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Things like the Health INSURANCE Industry making MORE money for shareholders by paying for LESS healthcare for those who can afford to pay their premiums!
FunnyD
Loo Hoo. @ 74
I got the penicillin, I’m scared of the ammo though. My friend left her shotgun over here for a few months, and I was scared to go near the corner where it was standing…and it wasn’t even loaded!! I’m okay with a bb though, shootin’ cans from the porch.
It’s astonishing. We spend $10,000,000,000 per month on a ‘war’ in Iraq that Greenspan recently said was, and is about oil, and the price of gasoline and heating oil is going through the roof.
TeddySanFran @ 68
I couldn’t get that far. Gagged on the whole Revolutionary War, original Minutemen re-enactment crap.
FunnyD
Funnydiva2002 @ 75
Yup. If you want people to do something, you have to make it worth their while.
Lots of people who work in Toronto take the trains or subway in. Why? Because it’s faster and cheaper.
The cheaper way for society has to be made the cheaper easier way for individuals as well. Or it doesn’t work.
Probably use of taxation and subsidies makes that happen.
I don’t have ammunition either, just remember reading in Time magazine many years ago that if it came down to the barter system, that ammunition and penicillin would be the most valuable commodities.
Should be “Proper use of…” Improper doesn’t work. See “farm bill”.
LS @ 78
That is a good instinct to have. Oh, if every state was like Florida…
LS @ 76
My understanding is that Dante had a very special place reserved for the usurer class.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
Did you read nolo’s comment at the beginning of the thread? Cripes.
Ian Welsh @ 48
the barrier to entry — in the
automobile market, was capital — LOTS
of it — that is the general rule. these
were not a prior monopolies from
the get-go. ford just made it so cheap,
and so well, using the innovation of
the assembly line — that created a
capital barrier to entry. . .
so — to sum up:
i agree with your main points,
i simply point out that most of
what you’ve written doesn’t apply
to markets where there are not
immense barriers to entry. . .
p e a c e
ps: not important, but didja’ see
my couple a’ commnets higher up in
the thread?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
It was never about oil being cheap for consumers. It was always about who would reap the profits and who huge could they be.
[spit]
FunnyDiva
There was a time when we put “loan sharks” in prison.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
Since it’s about oil, shouldn’t gas be taxed enough to cover the war? Thom Hartmann said (iirc) that gas would cost around $10 a gallon if it used to pay the true cost of getting the oil.
Ian Welsh @ 81
Here in San Diego County we have The Coaster train system. Problem is, getting from the Coaster to wherever you’re going.
Ian Welsh @ 81
I can’t think of a more appropriate use of taxation/subsidies, can you? That’s the sort of taxation us Progressives really can and do get behind!
FunnyDiva
Loo Hoo. @ 82
Oh…I get it now. D’oh…
Also, food and water for people and critters…if you have a well.
Community is key.
So, why the hell doesn’t this country act like a community??? Oh, yeah…someone would call us commie pinkos…oh yeah…they already think we are…Geeeesh…ya just can’t win.
Loo Hoo. @ 86
Sure did.
What is the ratio of comments to lurkers Ian? I was sacred to tinfoil conspicry status when late late night exploded when Karl Rove resigned.
I thought then that all the special people had FDL impoertant alram clocks? Before that I didn’t even know Jane read our stuff!
Ian Welsh @ 83
OMG, don’t get us started on the “farm bill”. And I only know enough about its current form to know what a sham it is, what a facade for corporate welfare on the grandest of scales!
FunnyD
nolo @ 87
Scale gives advantages, those advantages can then be multiplied is what I was saying.
Wonder what the price of a barrel of drinkable water will be in ten years.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 89
And now the banks can legally get 35%…
Really helpful, Ian. Thanks.
Consider electric power lines. It’s not unusual to have the largest, lowest-cost (marginal operating) power plants located in rural areas, but most of the demand in urban area. Transmission connects the two. But if too many plants are built in the rural area, not all of their cheaper power can get to the urban area. Prices rise in the urban area, and fall in the rural area. Congestion pricing tries to make this transparent.
But legislators/regulators don’t like congestion pricing and would rather build more transmission to relieve the congestion. Then they want to force all consumers, both rural and urban, to pay for it.
There are lots of proposals all over the country to do this. But in this simple example, the rural consumers wind up paying for lines that don’t benefit them; and they suffer the externality of having the lines built through their rural areas. Urban consumers have their rates subsidized by the rural consumers.
This is a common problem in electricity planning/markets. One suggestion is different from yours: figure out who the beneficiaries are and only charge them for the costs of the transmission upgrades, but don’t charge those who don’t benefit. If the beneficiaries aren’t willing to pay for the upgrades, then they shouldn’t be built. Beneficiaries in this example = the consumers in the higher-price urban area and power plants in the lower-price rural area (because they can now access the higher price area with more transmission to it).
Thoughts?
Loo Hoo. @ 91
Same for CalTrain in Santa Clara County and the Sounder in parts of King and Pierce Counties (Seattle/Tacoma). That’s the problem with being tied to the tracks/stations that were built decades ago, and the sprawl that assumed the individual auto was the be all and end all of getting to and from work.
FunnyDiva
Wow…I didn’t realize I understood quite so much about (basic) economics.
agreed.
perhaps scale is a chicken-or-egg
conundrum, is all i am saying.
which came first?
scale is not a priori a
given — or necessarily, a bad thing.
scale often comes because one
makes the good so well, and so
efficiently — that no one else
can keep up — and that may come
from a new process innovation. . .
but ultimately, in a free society,
monopolies tend to fall in on themeselves.
just look at fox news.
[rim-shot. . .]
enjoyed chatting — but i need
to jet — taking ms. nolo out
on the town, tonight!
p e a c e
Things Come Undone @ 95
Pach did a survey, maybe a year ago?, that showed 4% of readers comment.
TheOtherWA @ 90
What is the price of a gallon of gasoline in Europe these days? And how much profit has… say Exxon reaped in the last five years?
nolo @ 87
And NONE of the examples you cite above are in markets where there are NOT currently immense barriers to entry. And IIRC, if an innovation is truly novel and profitable, the barriers to entry do NOT remain low for very long. Certainly not with the sources of Capital so very concentrated in so few hands.
FunnyDiva
Ian,
You are so good (I mean it) at describing today.
Will you please describe tomorrow?
Not only are we transfering our wealth to China, etc. to subsidize our wars, we are also sending our wealth to oil producing countries to pay for our life style.
Ian Welsh @ 97
Exactly. And those advantages are not all directly financial, though influence over government policy and the legal system are HUGE. PLUS those advantages are easily and quickly brought to bear in novel areas–IOW the barriers to entry rise so quickly as to be the RULE rather than the exception.
FunnyDiva
Funnydiva2002 @ 88
True.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
Funny how much of our water is in private hands. These people know what is coming. They are thinning the population thru lack of health care, crappy jobs and war.
marymccurnin @ 110
there’s something odious about private ownership of water resources
Nolo @35.
Disagreed on research. Scientists are very concerned about how the privatization of research has siloed research and directed it in ways that aren’t very productive. There has been a huge increase in the restriction of research results to those who pay for them. Entire research floors in universities are now off-limits to people without corporate issued ids.
On “won’t keep doing it”, when people can’t afford to keep doing things they stop doing them. As just one exmple, why did France become the center of painting in the 19th century? Because painting was heavily subsidized. If governments stopped subsidizing public universities the majority of them would contract. They did not exst before massive government subsidies and would not exist in their current form if those subsidies were stopped.
Indeed as those subsidies have stopped the proportion of Americans from the lower and working classes making it through have plummeted and tuition rates have increased far faster than inflation.
The colletion size, operating hours and indeed existene of many museums would be negatively effected if governments ended subsidies.
And there would be more museums etc… with more subsidies. I’ve sat in on City of Toronto budget time and listened to the pleading for money, and indeed in some cases folks who didn’t get the money had to close up shop.
And we could discuss the library systems in most of the world. I don’t know about where you live, but where I do every time the budget gets cut the hours go down, libraries get closed, etc…
Certainly many people will do things that aren’t economically viable because they love them, and will scrounge for money. But economics is always about marginal decisions. Move the margin to make it more easy to make ends meet or make a profit, and you’ll get more of something.
And often enough something is profitable enough that it needs no subsidies. In which case, don’t.
Jonathan @ 106
If he could do that, he’d be off somewhere in a cushy early retirement waving at us poor working (erm, unemployed) stiffs!
FunnyD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
Oil company profts are in the short term up, is Bush’s term high ol prices more important than the GOP agenda of taking over government?
I don’t want to diss Naomi but that would explain it.
A lack of focus on the long term is a losser gambler trait. Bush’s alcoholism, sucespected coke use would make him a short term thinker a rationaliser.
Remember low oil prices and dry wells did stop his “cough” career as a sucscessful oil man, it did force him to rely on Dad and the Ossama family to bail him out.
It did stop him from being independent of is Dad. Remeber Bush aside from his hate of Bill is always about finnaly provining his Dad wrong.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
arrrrrgh! dys-kinexia! I meant how huge, not who huge…
The price of oil going up is not a bad thing. (We need to find a way to keep the poor warm this winter.) The more expensive the old the more restless the natives.
Funnydiva2002 @ 105
Loo Hoo. @ 99
No when banks sell hedge funds loan mortgage paper at 14 to one of assests on colteral the problem will hit the rich first much worst than it will hit home owners.
I expet a Bush bailout after the New Year payed for with tax dollars! We have to stop him homeowners should be protected first.
Hey, Loo Hoo,
Thanks for quoting me, but I was hoping for some extra insight from you, too :-).
FunnyD
Scarecrow @ 100
The irony of that, Scarecrow, is that rural electification wouldn’t have happened at all without massive government intervention and subsidies. The power companies didn’t want to provide it.
But, if you can identify who benefits, then sure, charge them. The counterargument to that is where you have large network externalities or overwhelming public good.
So, for example, Bell drove phone lines out to rural folks that could in no way be justified economically, but didn’t charge them full price, because we wanted everyone connected. City folks paid that bill. Should country folk have paid full freight? If they did, most of them still wouldn’t have phone service?
But, for your specific example, I’d say “make them pay”, unless we decide that keeping people from emigrating from the cities is a priority.
ie. do we want to encourage city living – to encourage density? There are heavy costs to pushing folks out of the city, as both NOLA (made tons worse by the destruction of swamps) and the wildfires (you built your house where) made clear.
But in cases like that the answer isn’t clear because it comes down to a question of what sort of society you want to have.
My personal preference, for what it’s worth, would be congestion pricing. But then I’d also let insurance companies refuse to sell hurricane insurance to people who insist on living on the coast of Louisiana.
Funnydiva2002 @ 115
I got it. Ido typos all the time. ’cause I’m too lazy to proof. See… ‘Ido’. Did it again. ;0)
When I lived in upstate NY back in the 90’s, it cost us $500 per month to heat the house with Panco oil…I cannot even imagine what it costs now…it was an awful experience…then on December 20th, the boiler blew up and caught on fire…oy vey….froze our butts off…an epic…
That, and Ghouliani….outta there.
I do love NY though, and always will.
Sorry the problem will hit rich people dumb enough to buy hedge funds. I don’t want to be accused of class bashing, just stupid bashing.
Funnydiva2002 @ 113
LOL. Sadly true. Though taking true advantage of knowledge requires more than knowledge. I’m Canadian. I was writing about the Canadian dollar’s rise years ago. Did I write currency protection into my contracts with my US customers.
Heck no.
That said, perhaps I’ll write some futuristic stuff. It’s very hard though, you’re almost sure to get much of it wrong. But it can be interesting anyway.
marymccurnin @ 116
It’s a bad thing when the needy don’t have heat or transportation to their already crappy job. And it’s a bad thing when NONE of the extra revenue is actually going directly to maintaining the infrastructure that we all need to drive on.
FunnyDiva
great thoughts above FD — and
i have taken the other posts in. . .
i think we disagree at a core,
philosophical level — i see it
as an exception — you see it as
a rule. . . and, i think my earlier
one to ian — about the chicken or
egg conundrum of “scale” is simply
a specific case of my general rule:
barriers to entry — created by an
innovation — must be compensated.
else (and on this, ian and i plainly,
and violently AGREE!), there will be
no incentive for innovation. and
they are naturally, by the market.
some government fine-tuning is acceptable,
but too much, and the engine of innovation dies. . .
end. economy. lights-out.
“no more barter-town!”
now i must jet — lest ms. nolo be cross.
p e a c e
Funnydiva2002 @ 119
You mean the electric car comment I didn’t scroll down enough on? Here!
Sorry, Funny Diva!
Ian Welsh @ 112
Just look at health care. According to Dr. John Abramson (”Overdo$ed America“), a majority of medical/Rx research is now privately funded, with an aim of patenting drugs and even methods.
What is worse..really…living simply…or owing a bunch of debt. Who needs a bunch of “stuff”. My vote, owing a bunch of debt. That is a friggin’ nightmare to deal with.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 121
Dyslexics Untie!
BobbyG @ 128
And even DNA!
Oh, and most of the costs big pharma uses to justify big prices and big profits? Not reserach at all. Nuh uh, MARKETING.
[spit]
FunnyDiva
If people living in rural areas had to pay for their own phone/electric/cable, you’d have much like you have in Central America. Services to the cities only. Right, Ian?
marymccurnin @ 130
“Dyslexics Untie!” Good one. My lady has that difficulty. And she’s also a lot smarter than me. ;0)
Loo Hoo. @ 127
No worries, Loo Hoo, I just din’t wanna miss nothings!
FunnyD
marymccurnin @ 130
Amen, sistre!
newtonusr @ 135
Wahts the problem?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
Oh, yeah. Dyslexia ain’t the same as lack of smarts. Not at all.
Best to Lahoma. Hope she knows how much she’s liked and appreciated here at the lake!
FunnyD
Where do I sign up for the Class War?
I’d rather be disleksik than be a neocon, any freekin’ day!!
And then there was the dyslexic agnostic insomniac…who sat up all night wondering if there really WAS a dog.
LS @ 136
Wat pablum? were?
Funnydiva2002 @ 141
Previwe is my friend
Funnydiva2002 @ 131
Oh, yeah. Drugs, devices, DNA, and even therapeutic procedures. I’m not making that last one up. There have been cases where people have tried to patent medical px’s. i.e., if I use Dr. Jones’s ostensibly more effective hip job (or whatever) px, I gotta pay a royalty, LOL. Whole new area of intellectual property law (and unethical as shit, in my view).
newtonusr @ 142
It is preview…you made a typoe!
TeddySanFran @ 138
Oooh, now THERE’s an army I could join. Or a camp I could follow, or whatever.
TSF, saw katymine’s pix of you and Patrick at YKos2. Handsome couple, you are!
FunnyD
TeddySanFran @ 138
You may already be signed up. By proxy.
Ian, to me all the sign are worrisome, and taken together, almost terrifying…Can you think of one event we can all agree will represent the “men with baseball bats” you mentioned earlier?
Ok is everyone ready OT? Divide any Prime number by 3 the result should be a repeating decimal of .333 the holy number or .666 the number of the beast.
Is there any way of prediciting Prime numbers based on this ?
Its making me crazy. That damm Steve King book the “Gunslinger series” made me think of it.
BobbyG @ 143
Not to mention process patents on drug manufacture. More money in those than in novel drugs, actually!
Some unethical shit, fer sure. But some reasonable return on innovation and investment is also to be expected. Drawing that line? Defining reasonable? Beyond extremely difficult!
FunnyDiva
RonD @ 147
Central banks dumping dollars. Saudi Arabia officially refusing to take dollars for oil.
Your dum. Dumy! You have no right to a coherant thought. You could never gradiate and think right, because you don’t perview your comments. And…don’t start your sentenses with “and”. Dummy!
Funnydiva2002 @ 149
Oneclick shopping.
IP law needs a huge rewrite to make it clear that process isn’t patentable, to reduce terms, and so on. And patent examiners need to start doing their jobs again.
Mods my comment at 148 should read King not kng thank you!
marymccurnin @ 130
OLO!
If dollars were to be dumped, and the US temporarily paralyzed, do you think it likely China would make a move on Taiwan? Eventually, they WILL figure that they’ll never have a better chance.
Things Come Undone @ 153
770
greenwarrior @ 154
Green!
Things Come Undone @ 148
I absolutely love prime numbers. What is the largest prime number now? I don’t have a clue.
RonD @ 155
Not sure. Friend of mine married a Taiwanese, and his take is that it’ll eventually happen peacefully anyway. But it could blow up if the Taiwanese get stupid and officially declare independence.
But actually, attacking during an economic crisis would be a bad idea anyway, the fleet will still exist and the Pres/Congress will be looking for something to distract Americans with. A war is always a good distraction.
Lets see how smart the firepus are I bet Ann Coulter never gets these OT questions! But to be fair I can’t figure it out either!
Ian Welsh @ 150
Wait, wait, wait…aren’t Central Banks…the Feral Reserve????? :O
Oil is a complicated case because the military costs are not figured in for protecting it. But then is Bush’s stupid war really a part of this. We wouldn’t be in Iraq if it weren’t for the oil but our invasion and occupation will not result in any great benefits to us from Iraq’s oil. So while it is a cost, it is not a legitimate cost.
Also you have to understand that the whole way the oil market is structured is crazy. In the short term, oil is overpriced. $15-20/bbl of the current price is the result of the relatively recent entry into the markets of pure speculators who have a lot of highly leveraged money but little understanding of oil market fundamentals.
Long term, however, oil is massively under priced. It is a non-renewable irreplaceable resource. For the last 50 years or so both producers and consumers for their own reasons have acted as if this were not the case. But peak oil is on us either already or within the next 5 years and the long term low pricing will become unsustainable.
There are externalites associated with all of these factors but I have no idea how you would sort them all out or even if you would want to.
RonD @ 147
I think there’s a preponderant likelihood that humanity is on course for decimation (”decimation” means to be reduced to 10% of its original status). We presently consume about 130% of the planet’s carrying capacity, and, according to gobal warming expert Tim Flannery, absent concerted and sustained intervention across myriad fronts, that overconsumption is expected to rise to about 200% in the next 30-40 years. Couple the consume-the-future “free market” frenzy with severe climate change and increasing politicla instability, well…
Read Jared Diamond’s “Collapse.“
marymccurnin @ 157
Geh. Green lives is a TX puppie.
Surely, there is a misplaced comma somewhere in this thread….I’m lookinf for it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 158
I love prime numbers almost as much as I love pi.
I just love the way Bush and some others talk about protecting “our vital interests”. That means oil under lands of other nations.
marymccurnin @ 157
‘Sme! I bin mostly lurking all day.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 158
I’m trying to predict future Prime numbers given the Mex/American Indian knowledge maybe we can figure it out I need a new approch which will be fullly credited!
A market which doesn’t price in the cost of pollution isn’t operating with all the facts and is thus underpricing whatever it produces. Likewise people who produce a positive externality the value of which they can’t capture deserve to be compensated for making society, literally, richer. If they aren’t compensated for it, they’ll stop doing it.
To me, this almost seems intuitively obvious, yet you never seem to hear anything about this from the Milton Friedman devotees. Libertarianism in its purest form strikes me as intellectually dishonest for that reason alone.
In fact, I would be shocked to discover that Taiwan doesn’t have a secret nuclear-weapons program, for just that eventuality. Feasible? Also, when the USSR went broke, didn’t a lot of their fleet wind up being too expensive to operate?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 70
Affordable and/or subsidized housing, however, is in short supply.
Lea (no uh) @ 166
Are you being ‘irrational’ on purpose?
Hahahahabwahabwaba….
Funnydiva2002 @ 80
Might as well go for broke and gag on the Constitution.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 173
Always!! :-)
Margot @ 172
Very true.
BobbyG @ 163
I have read that in terms of peak energy (~2030) as opposed to peak oil, the carrying capacity of the planet (barring some major new energy resource like fusion) will decrease to about 1 billion or less.
Hi Ian: Just caught the post. Thanks. Question: what is the government support of airlines? I see it’s a big offset of tickets on Amtrac.
New Thread.
Hugh @ 162
I we had left Iraq alone producing at the full capacity it could given the tech embargo what would oil prices be today?
I deliverd newspapers before the war at the Price the Chicago Tribune was givining me before katrina $2 gas meant I was barely breakig even in a Toyota Echo!
LS @ 156
Shit up yoo gyes.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 173
a reference to the square root of our national war debt?
PLovering @ 175
Um? Forget a snark tag, or comment without reading the context?
To re-phrase myself, I gagged on the craptastic use of Revolutionary War, original Minutemen re-enactment to cynically promote the Administration’s “Citizen Soldier” propaganda to 4-year-olds.
And that’s not snark!
FunnyDiva
Lea (no uh) @ 166
Ok first disprove my idea are there any Primes not divasble by 3? Are any of the results not a .333 or .666
Well I think I went that far but fine prove me wrong!
But how can we use this kbowledge to predict if a number is Prime? Also are you American/Mexican Indian in Part? Who cares I want an Answer!
Loo Hoo. @ 182
nuh uh! It rollz downhl!!!
Ok I’ll keep reposting the question God knows this has kept me up at night
Still for OT questions I want Jane to keep this in the recrod books! about intelgectile discourse here at the Lake.
Plus I’d like to see a Red Stater figure this out without a super computer! Ok granted I can’t work a spread sheet on apple I need some classes:(.
sid58 @ 179
Yup, airlines receive far more subsidies than Amtrak does, in various ways.
Things Come Undone @ 184
A time honored way of looking for primes is the sieve approach. All even numbers are divisible by 2 so 2 is the only even prime number. 3 will remove every third number or if you discount even numbers every sixth number but I digress.
Anyway all numbers from 3 on have the following characteristics. They are divisible by 3, they are a multiple of 3 plus one, or they are a multiple of 3 plus 2. So if you divide by 3. You will have numbers that are perfectly divisible by 3 and have a zero remainder. Numbers which have a remainder of one and so further divided give 1/3. And numbers that have remainder of 2 and further divided give 2/3.
And other than being part of the sieve method this does not lead to a formula to find prime numbers.
Hugh @ 189
“3’s” are a very interesting number.
Ian Welsh @ 31
This summer,as the subprime problem began to boil over, I read in more than one business journal that the Federal Reserve made veiled warnings to financial powerhouses about too much investment in hedge funds and mortgaged-backed securities and reduced credit-worthiness, but they had no legal regulatory power in that area. So the excuse goes: The Fed felt it was ignored, so it shut up and let the banks and financial houses get exhuberant.
So, if this is true (and I have no earthly idea if it is or isn’t), what is the proper way for the Fed to behave when banks decide to get crazy with credit?
dude @ 191
It’s more or less true. The Fed has plenty of power over the banks if it wants them, but it doesn’t have power over most Wall Street firms which aren’t classified as banks.
However the Fed didn’t even reign in the banks. It has for some time allowed banks to buy default insurance, and use that default insurance to reduce the effective amount of loans they have to put reserves against, for example. So reserve requirements have in effect been gutted. It also has a fair bit of power when it comes to how things are accounted for by banks, etc… but often chose not to use that.
The Fed was getting uneasy, but its policies aided and abetted the bubble.
For a good overview of how the Fed didnt have read this article by my co-blogger Numerian.
fwiw,the ‘federal reserve bank’ is a privately held corporation that buys america’s productive capacity for ‘printing costs’, currently about 7 cents per note. ‘the fed’ then loans our productive capacity back to us for usury. ‘prime numbers’ indicate that the fed is getting the best of the deal. fed buys a c-note for 7 cents, loans the c-note back to u.s. for usury equals 7 cents for u.s. and $130 to $170 for the fed.
peas!
ls@129, with respect, a paraphrase, ‘live free or die in debt!’
peas!
Hugh @ 162
I think the problem not that we cannot price the externalities fairly clearly. The problem is that as a nation, we don’t want to pay for them. We would rather dump the losses where they fall: on people who are weak and get asthma, on soldiers, on the world’s environment, and anywhere else, just so we can have cheap, even irrationally cheap, energy. We aren’t even willing to pay the costs of transitioning to other sources of energy. The rich would rather speculate on oil and subprime mortgages and other financial legerdemain than invest in new sources of energy, which might involve real risk.