Popular, from the musical Wicked, with Idina Menzel and Kristen Chenowith…
Every once in a while, I read something so gobsmackingly discordant that it jars my perception of reality. This isn’t one of those times. Via NYObserver:
…Not only is the political-evangelical alliance “built primarily on personal relationships” and “connections formed outside of Washington,” but the networks that now bind various professional elites constitute nothing less than a new freestanding grid of social power: Christian philanthropic boards and corporate-sponsored “parachurch” groups promote a new form of elite cohesion, “not by social class or shared backgrounds,” but “by faith.”
Mr. Lindsay is clearly correct in one sense: The leaders he’s talked to are beset with the self-consciousness and status anxiety of an elite still familiarizing itself with the confident exercise of power. The growing ambit of evangelical power—spanning the boardrooms of corporate behemoths like Johnson and Johnson and Wal-Mart up through the top echelons of the Bush White House—has fueled a deepening schism, he notes, between the “cosmopolitan” temperament of movement leaders and the “populist” convictions of the evangelical rank-and-file. The jet-setting, boardroom-friendly leadership seems pointedly uneasy with the “evangelical kitsch” that down-home believers embrace, such as Christian pop or the pulpy Left Behind novels of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Movement leaders feel more at home in parachurch groupings, where power speaks to power—and oddly, in the nation’s great suburban megachurches, which mix populist presentation styles with a steady diet of business-friendly homilies. One businessman tells Mr. Lindsay admiringly that his megachurch pastor “could have been CEO of a Fortune 10 company.”
The cosmopolitan strain of elite evangelical life is most evident in Hollywood and other culture industries, where evangelical leaders have actively urged adopting the interest-group politics of their avowed lifestyle enemies in the gay and lesbian community. As one ministry executive explained, “If we could get an Ellen DeGeneres figure who is likable and popular to ‘come out’ as an evangelical, many more people would have positive impressions of the movement as a whole.” Evangelical screenwriter Barbara Nicolosi reports being pleasantly surprised to hear from a staffer of the showbiz TV newsmag program Inside Edition that “Christian is the new gay.”…
American elites neither accumulate nor exercise power in a vacuum: Their victories come at someone else’s expense—and so long as evangelical leaders manage to portray those rollbacks as mere collateral damage in a righteous struggle against dread secular liberal humanism, then they’ve achieved a confident show of strength in the arena of social myth, where power matters most.
I’ve read the Bible a number of times, and I just don’t remember the call to clique and amass personal wealth and power to the exclusion of those less fortunate alongside the Golden Rule.
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Zed?
I’ve never read the Bible. But I know about the Golden Rule.
Mega ripoff.
Somehow I doubt “the least of these my brethern” come to very many fundraisers.
Sheer hypocricy. Stuffed shirts, posing as “Christian” with hearts filled with greed and hate. Puke worthy.
Isn’t it amazing how rotten meat always attracts the vultures?
“could have been CEO of a Fortune 10 company.”
Only if it was Enron.
What was it about the “moneychangers” and “The Temple” again? Oh, yeah. Now I remember and Jesus was none too fond of said moneychangers, IIRC.
Maybe Elmer Gantry lives??
EPU’ed
First powwow added this also from the Congressional Record yesterday morning:
And what I found. From the Congressional Record yesterday just before the 5 hours of debate began so about 5:30 ET.
and
It is clear from this that arrangements were being made over the last few days and were being finalized throughout the day Thursday. Reid had not only cut a deal with McConnell but he had a list of which Democrats wanted to speak and for how long. So they all knew about this earlier in the day. The debate was not sprung on anyone. If the Democratic speakers knew about this, you better believe the offices of the various Democratic Presidential candidates knew about it too. There is no excuse for what Reid did, what all the Democrats did by not objecting to the unanimous consent agreement, and what the 4 Democratic Presidential candidates who are Senators did. The only secrets were the ones they hoped to put over on us.
Here’s a story about a time when I almost took out an entire Guatemalan death squad:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..iving.html
Evangelicals are a cult.
Not mainstream christianity.
Staying in Louisville for business at a hotel next to a Megachurch with a HUGE campus and went to their website. They were using perversions of verses of Timothy stating that it was God’s will and desire to be wealthy.
It was really wacked…. that they could pick and choose which verses that they would live by and not all of them.
Synoia @ 10
Sorry, that’s too broad of a generalization in my opinion. There are many very sincere evangelical Christians who try to lead a good life and serve others.
Some of the national leaders however…
It was Sermon on the Mount where Jesus (played by Kenneth Colley) said, “Blessed are the Greek for they shall inherit the earth.”
I kinda resent the phrase “Christian conservatives”.
There are countless Christians on the sane side of the political spectrum.
Love that last sentence Christy:
“I’ve read the Bible a number of times, and I just don’t remember the call to clique and amass personal wealth and power to the exclusion of those less fortunate alongside the Golden Rule.”
This phenomenon is working outside of the strictly evangelical megachurch arena. The Episcopal Church in my hometown split oestensibly over the gay issue. However, the split “allowed” several of the more socially prominent, wealthy members to have an excuse to walk on their pledges for an ambitious (already underway) building program.
Also, I have the idea these same parishoners didn’t like the church’s growing outreach to the less fortunate (and particularly the local Hispanic population).
Had a grad school course back in the early 70s called “Religion and Society”. The search for “moral power” through politics corrupts faith.
scarlet p., you are a piece of work.
Doesn’t the Bible have Jesus saying something like “Many will come to me on that day, and will say to me, Lord, did I not do this, that, and the other thing in thy Name? And I will say ‘Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity. I never knew you.’”.
Now I don’t believe a word of what the Bible has to say, but still it would sure be sweet to watch a truly righteous Jesus put the smack-down on the Wildmon’s, Falwells, Dobson’s, Benny Hinns, and etc. of this world when they come to Him expecting their super reward for being such perfect little disciples, and Jesus turns to them and says “What? You still don’t get it?”
Well Kirk Cameron is always on one of the religious channels trying to convince me evolution is bullshit and the Constitution is based on Old Testament scripture…..maybe he’s the new Ellen? Though I’m not sure we could really call him popular.
Here’s one of the mysteries that intrigue me. The Bush family apparently has a history of family financial connections to nazi Germany. George W. Bush seems to be quite the supporter of Israeli governmental policies. And the Isreali government appears to like and trust GWB. President Bush is purportedly a born again Christian. Born again Christians say that any Jew (Ann Coulter being the latest proponent of this tripe) are fierce in their view that any Jew who doesn’t accept Christianity is doomed. I just don’t get it.
Frankly, my investment portfolio has taken a real hit lately. I’m moving my stocks to Godless China for the next few years.
-Jesus of Nazareth
Synoia @ 10
Define “Cult”. I visited Temple Square in Salt Lake City yesterday. I occurred to me that the only difference between a cult and a religion is longevity.
The accumulation of personal wealth & power is inconsistent with Christ’s teachings, imo.
The impression here is that the New Testament is about the Golden Rule.
I asked an Indian friend, about a year ago (a lawyer working at the Indian Supreme Court,) “What are the kinds of things you learn when you have a 5,000 year history?”
He said, “In our long history, no form of government – kingdom, dynasty, regime, or anything – has lasted more than 250 years. They always collapse and get replaced.”
“Why is that?” I asked.
“Because people’s selfish motivations will always corrupt any system of public service – it just seems to take about 250 years before the facade collapses.”
I don’t know if what he said was factually true, but it sounds right given Our experience.
Can an atheist or agnostic who practices the Golden Rule gain access to Heaven?
egregious @ 12
I tend to think that the “Evangelical” theology of today is an aberration; that is until remember the Protestant denominational split during the Civil Rights Era. IMO, the theological rot has always been there.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
That’s kind of what I took from it. I can’t think of a major religion that isn’t, actually.
PeteCO @ 21
Longevity and numbers.
This just reminded me of something my Dad told me recently.He went to a church and talked to the old preacher for a while, kind of feeling them out and as time goes by the preacher looks at my Dad and tells him ‘of course we will need to see your financial statement’.
Needless to say that was the end of that conversation.
Since when does it require a financial statement to belong to a church?
No wonder I am a recovering catholic.
GSD @ 20
I don’t dare look.
After we are dead, we will, or we won’t know, about ‘an after-life”
Check it out. Chuckie Grassley is taking on the super rich preachers.
These frauds are gonna squeal.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 19
Israel is the third rail in Washington foreign policy. Their ultra-conservative Likud party with roots going back to Vladimir Jabotinsky, find a constituency in the religious fruitcakes and the madcap crazy wacky Armageddonists.
Hugh @ 8 –
i agree, and here’s the comment i just left on the previous thread, even deeper in epu land… i’m having trouble keeping up.
for me, the fight is to pull back the curtain so that we are no longer confused by the political theater and instead can see our government and it’s actions for what they really are.
on the mukasey nomination vote last night, i think what happened was that some of the dems who voted “no” (or didn’t vote) really wanted the nomination to pass (or didn’t care) – but they wanted to pretend otherwise. the rest of the dems, including those who voted “no”, wanted to help those dems deceive us… so they drew the curtain over what happened by not objecting to the unanimous consent agreement – which would have forced senators to cast real votes because a 60 vote majority would have been required for a cloture vote.
in addition, i have been told that there is a report that reid made some agreement with the Rs – trading the mukasey nomination for something to do with the defense spending bill. however, i’ve not been able to confirm this report and reid’s office will neither confirm nor deny it (let alone tell me what the deal was).
if anyone has contacts to persue it further, that would be great… i think i’ve gone as far as i can.
in the mean time, i think it makes sense for each of us to call our own senators who voted “no” but didn’t object or call for a fillibuster – and ask them why they didn’t object.
…and something for everyone is to call these 4 dems, who didn’t even vote – even though they all claim to be strongly opposed to the nomination deserve and they all want our vote in the presidental primaries:
dems not voting:
if any of the these senators actually did oppose mukasey’s nomination, they would have been present last night to object.
one of the oldest tricks of sociopaths: you can’t argue with God, I speak for God, ergo, you can’t argue with me.
I lost count of how many “reformed” criminals have “found God” as a new way to manipulate people. You can see the wheels in their heads turning as they realize, you mean if I talk about God I can get what I want? Sweet!
Disclaimer: I am not speaking of all leaders of faith, of course. Just the charlatan wolves in sheep’s clothing.
And I saw a dude on the train yesterday reading “How to Become a Millionaire God’s Way.”
scarlet p. @ 9
Whoa, Nelly. Makes putting up signs on the freeway fences a stroll in the park, eh? *g*
Synoia @ 10
That’s ridiculous.
radiofreewill @ 23
It sounds right given world history. I have been thinking ‘fall of the roman empire’ for a number of years, even before W because of the narcissism and focus on individual success over community that we have as a whole. Just generally speaking.
????? Beyond belief.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
The answer lies in the Bible. Hint: no.
Bush Family Evil Empire themesong.
Everybody dance.
-GSD
Its pretty clear these people only read the Bible within their own context, void from the context when it was written. A word here, a phrase there and the Bible can prop any right wing position.
CHS:
“discordant”
I’m thinking the way to motivate people to start using semiotics (The People’s Media!) is simply to convince them that if they do it they’ll live forever going on pony rides with Jesus and Grandma up in Heaven.
Wish I’d thought of it before…
Jesus was big on state sponsored torture.
Not.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 19
It’s called hypocrisy and cynical exploitation.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 40
That then begs the question. Did God or humans write the Bible?
Bustednuckles @ 28
Wow! :O
“When the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.”
~ Edith Hamilton
Thumb-sucking Goopers beware!
From Talking Points:
There seem to be a lot of questions about what was going on. Can we be sure the candidates knew anything about it? I wouldn’t put it past Reid, Schumer, and DiFi to not inform them in time for them to get back.
radiofreewill @ 23
He likely read his own history and saw the patterns. I picked the same thing up in my world history class as a teenager. The class glossed over a LOT of things, but i still found the pattern of about 200-300 years myself in that single year of study. I was in 10th grade at the time, but i’d never voiced that observation out loud. I thought we were close at the time (early 90s), but the last 8 years have accelerated it horribly. We could have caught up with the rest of the world and avoided that deterioration. Instead? This admin took 10 steps back to the time long before i was born, to the past i’d thought many had actually learned from.
I’m only 30, and yet, it scares me because i’ve years yet to survive in this. My thoughts are straying to my family in canada, and maybe taking it up with them. Isolationism and jingoism? Have never been what i believed in. I fight day by day, and i’ll be here for a few years yet to do what i can, but ultimately i’ll be in ontario at some point. Giving up my citizenship or not? Is another question entirely, since my mother herself is canadian and hasn’t given up her own citizenship here in the US for the 30 some years she’s been married and living here in the states.
Religion is a corruption of spirituality. I define spirituality as the feeling or experience of connectedness to the cosmos, or the Earth, or humanity, or even a single other person. This is usually a good thing; if you’re hearing voices though, that’s not spirituality, that’s schizophrenia. Religion though, takes that abstract, inexplicable feeling and wraps it in hierarchy, rules, dogma, and tribalism. Religion limits spirituality, and empowers the hierarchy at the expense of the average worshipper. Buddhism may be different; I recently read a book by the Dalai Lama and was quite impressed. Nevertheless, I’m still agnostic.
“I’ve read the Bible a number of times, and I just don’t remember the call to clique and amass personal wealth and power to the exclusion of those less fortunate alongside the Golden Rule.”
Not my insight, but these people have more to do with Calvin, Luther and the capitalist creed than “the Bible”.
carolyn urban @ 39
Yup, 25 years ago, I lived on the same street as the that hideous monument to the Christian Right, the Coral Ridge Presbytarian Church (down in Ft. Lauderdale). When the BFs parents made inquiries about joining, what with it being so close an all, they didn’t even bother with small talk – they required financials and a mandatory 20% tithe. I remember the BFs parents turned a couple ankles RUNNING AWAY!
I love the flick “Elmer Gantry”.
scarlet p. @ 44
the last time i saw or heard the word “semiotics” used was by the character paulo baldi on bbc radio:
Sparkles the Iguana @ 40
I’m thinking your answer relies on the writings of a bunch of old men interpreting the writings/ramblings of another bunch of old men. In truth it is a question that none of us know the answer to.
Open education is against god. I am sure the fundies love this.
FBI Calls on Universities to Guard Against Spies
(snip)
The National Security Higher Education Advisory Board, launched in 2005, consists of 20 university presidents around the country who are working with the FBI on matters of campus security and counter-terrorism to identify threats to students and staff. But the board is also being asked to guard against campus spies who might be out to steal not-yet-secret secrets. According to this report from NPR, the presidents are being advised to think like “Cold War-riors” and be mindful of professors and students who may not be on campus for purposes of learning but, instead, for spying, stealing research and recruiting people who are sympathetic to an anti-U.S. cause.
(snip)
wired
This phrase leaped out from the article Christy posted:
>“Christian is the new gay.”…
Let me get this straight: The megachurch denizens are now comparing themselves to a group of people they continue to demonize and persecute, while believing that they are similarly afflicted?
What kind of cognitive dissonance does it take to come up with these conclusions?
-S
” I’ve read the Bible a number of times, and I just don’t remember the call to clique and amass personal wealth and power to the exclusion of those less fortunate alongside the Golden Rule. “
” A camel has as much chance of going through the eye of a needle as a rich man has of going to heaven. “
False Prophets False Prophets Holy War Elijah drowned the 450 False Prophets in the river Sidon when Baal failed to light the fire and end the drought.
Bush fails to win in Iraq despite everything he has done for his small minded bigoted god then the fundies face the river!.
dakine01 @ 57
It is a bit concerning that a significant portion of our population base their world view on the opinions of men who lived in the bronze age.
Steve-AR @ 58
Stazi / KGB, coming to a neighborhood near you, very soon.
Belief in the Bible is an open and shut case.
Things Come Undone @ 60
Back in the day, says the Bible, it was Cyrus the leader of the Persians who taught a major military lesson to some hubristic “faithful” leaders of God’s people. It took them about 100 years to recover.
I guess George overlooked that part of the Bible.
scarlet p. @ 9
Now that’s a story!
American elites neither accumulate nor exercise power in a vacuum: Their victories come at someone else’s expense—and so long as evangelical leaders manage to portray those rollbacks as mere collateral damage in a righteous struggle against dread secular liberal humanism, then they’ve achieved a confident show of strength in the arena of social myth, where power matters most.
And power corrupts. Absolutely.
Next they’ll have their own Davos.
P J Evans @ 50
See my #8 above. They knew. It was all a cynical hoax. They still think we are gormless rubes that they can put over anything on or that even if some of us can see what is happening most of us won’t.
As for Reid making a deal and getting something in return, I just don’t buy it. How come we only know what the Democrats gave up but not the Republicans? What could the Repulbicans give up that would be of equal importance as accepting a torture lover as Attorney General?
And remember Reid has a history of being scammed by the Republicans. If he called in all the marks he has supposedly garnered from the Republicans, the Republicans would be doing everything he wants for the rest of Bush’s term. Hasn’t turned out that way, has it? Even once.
This was a standard Democratic cave. Anything else is just so many attempts to put lipstick on the pig.
I just gotta pop up in defense of Martin Luther…he left the catholic church because of corruption and very much the same stuff outlined above about “evangelicals”. If his church has devolved into religiosity (a real possibility), that’s not due to Luther himself. just sayin’
it always helps me to go back to the early days of any church to remember what it’s all about.
That said, any organization of any kind can lose its original core values or mission. Just look at any start up company and its growth pains from IPO to shareholder accountability etc.
the conversion of the many after the original group is already an established entity cannot be compared to the excitement and risk taking and bonding of the original group creating something completely new.
Oh My! Arthur Bremer released from prison
dakine01 @ 57
What would the atheist or agnostic think wound up in Heaven? A soul? Some representation of the mind and body that walked around?
GuyFromOhio @ 66
They already do. After the last gathering, James Dobson publicly announced that if Rudy gets the GOP nod, he’s going to look for a third party to get behind.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 40
The answer if I recall correctly was 42.
If I were God I’d have no respect whatsoever for people who believed in me.
OT..Wait Staff 1, Kewl Reporter 0
“You people are really nuts,” she told a reporter during a phone interview. “There’s kids dying in the war, the price of oil right now — there’s better things in this world to be thinking about than who served Hillary Clinton at Maid-Rite and who got a tip and who didn’t get a tip.”
talkleft
Is it even possible to follow all the rules put forth in the Bible? (Particularly if one includes the Old Testament)
I think what “flavor” of Christianity you have all depends on what parts you or your leaders choose to emphasize. Thus social-justice activists and death penalty advocates can both legitimately call themselves Christians. I’m less familiar with other religions, but it seems the situation is similar within Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism at least.
carolyn urban @ 39
The priest asked my dad what his income was because he had to tithe which Catholics don’t have to do.
I told my Dad see you moved into an all white neighboorhood the priest was trying to force you out. Which he did we went to mass in the next town over.
Years later they brought in a Spanish Mass not that I speak any Spanish. But the curious thing was Spanish mass was a round robin of rotating churches in the County a differnt one every Sat and Sun.
It was like they were trying to shake us.
Now when I hear Catholic Church attendance is falling or Hispanics are joining other churches I smile.
…easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
Really though what this is saying is what we all know – the road to power and money is the yellow brick road paved for these people (though not peon poor people of faith as implied). This group of Evangelican and NeoCons has made a super concious effort to give all fruits to their ilk and blacklist all others.
The biggest problem is that this yellow brick road they setup may work for years, same as the way they have setup all the courts with appointments.
Hugh @ 72
Yeah, but what is the question? ;})
Hugh @ 67
Reid makes the perfect “mark” for a con man, doesn’t he?
Was this hearing rescheduled so that Dodd couldn’t make his move?
scarlet p. @ 73
I’ve read somewhere that angels laugh at our need for religion.
Someone was wondering why we haven’t heard from Howard Dean lately. I just heard he will be coming up next on Ed Schultz show. There is a substitute host for Ed today.
do-si-do @ 80
I imagine, rather, that they are crying over how we hurt each other.
GuyFromOhio @ 66
How quickly credibility can dissipate when eyes are inevitably opened. The mystery of levitation gives way to the awful realization that there is no more sanity in magical thinking than there is in the belief of equitable evaluation. This is the awakening that the markets have been dreading but is now coming to pass. The bloom is off the rose and the thorns are taking their toll…
S&P says State St-managed CDO liquidating assets
Credit ratings are starting to pancake. This is a clear indication of extreme stress in the basic integrity of the financial system, and it still early in the unwinding process. This kind of extraordinary re-valuation is a worst case scenario for all the players because it exhibits the unmitigated fraud in both the rating agencies and the instruments they rated.
I pity the fools who believed they could mark to make-believe until the cows came home.
The fantasy-finance bulls have no where to go but to slaughter.
Hugh @ 67
imo, possibly the most important thing we can do in our lobbying of congress is to see through the hoaxes. let them know that we are not fooled.
we got to learn to see through their kabuki and then to teach them it doesn’t work. we can do this.
SteveInNC @ 52
Buddhism IS different — it’s a practice not a system of belief.
Meditation is the core of the practice, each branch has it’s own window-dressing. I’m most familiar with Tibetan Buddhism — it helped me find my way out of the loop of depression and anger that took hold of me on 9/11/2001.
The best thing about Buddhism — it doesn’t proslytize.
do-si-do @ 79
They all knew about this. They all of them knew something was going down and had a good idea when. Their staffs could certainly stay on top of this. And if one of the Democratic Presidential candidates had a question about anything, there is marvelous invention called the telephone which they could have used to talk to Reid directly. Even so, the mere fact that all 4 of them were no shows is pretty strong evidence that this was not happenstance.
Things Come Undone @ 76
Wow, where do you live? Here, I was shocked to learn that our considerably sized Hispanic community was shunted into the auditorium for their masses. They were not allowed to use the very large church.
The next pastor that came along (about ten years ago), changed all that and gave them the coveted nine o’clock slot in the church, which they still have today.
This is in NoCal.
Goose stepping our way to the police state;
An extensive mapping program launched by the LAPD’s anti-terrorism bureau to identify Muslim enclaves across the city sparked outrage Thursday from some Islamic groups and civil libertarians, who denounced the effort as an exercise in racial and religious profiling.
(snip)
LA Times
Were is the Reinhold Niebuhr for our time?
scarlet p. @ 9
Lucky to be alive on more than one count!
reminds me of the time I got a ticket for excessive speed, going an estimated 25mph in a 25mph zone.
I rolled a VW van making a hard left turn at a light going 25mph.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
Why would they want to? I mean, really, it sounds like a frightful bore. No sex, nothing to eat, nothing to drink, no video games or TV, and just forever basking in the presence of the Lord would probably get pretty old after about, oh, two minutes.
Hugh @ 72
42 reminds me of the hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy, which was written by douglas adams, who also wrote the dirk gently series, which as just been made into a radio play by bbc and is currently being broadcast…. just in case there are any douglas adams fans who also like bbc radio plays.
Hugh @ 86
Thanks Hugh, Something sure smells and it ain’t my socks.
Has anyone heard anything from Dodd’s office. I mean, I just wonder why someone like Dodd who states strongly that he votes in the Senate during his run for the WH would be absent…esp after a threat to filibuster which was so awesome.
what is the backroom deal on this one? why are prez candidates backing away like it is so much kryptonite to vote no? WTH?
Was there ever the faintest doubt about this thing goin through? I don’t think so.
Brisingamen @ 85
See Ken Wilber’s excellent book “The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion.“
That, along with Steve Batchelor’s “Buddhism Without Beliefs” and Zukav’s “The Dancing Wu Li Masters,” pretty much cobbles it all together.
Of course, Alan Watts was all over this stuff decades ago.
Hugh @ 86
senator clinton’s office told me that she had a “scheduling conflict”
The Kerik indictment is on-line here
Bustednuckles @ 89
LOL. Volkswagen does it…again!
Awesome tale, scarlet. you’ve got way more guts than I do, that’s for sure.
do-si-do @ 87
The Great State Of Illinois home of Tornadoes, Floods, Snowstorms and minus 20 degree Windchills!
The County of McHenery I beleve we were the Whitest, most Republican, county in the state, plus we drank more per capita than the rest of the Counties. I grew up thinking the Chicago Tribune was a Lefty Paper.
You don’t suppose that the Church had a policy to isolate hispanics from whites do you?
Steve-AR @ 96
Oh that’s okay, I’m sure Monsignor Alan Placa will forgive him…
do-si-do @ 99
MSNBC says Kerik pleads not guilty to corruption charge…
Things Come Undone @ 98
No, I think the white parishioners had the policy to isolate hispanics. The errant priest above was a product of the country club set…we’re all so proud.
Brisingamen @ 85
Buddhism also has a sense of humor(occiasionally brutal), but always there. And it encourages satire, or else Journey to the west wouldn’t be asia’s most beloved set of tales. ^^ There’s no doubt that it IS a work of satire once you figure out exactly what they’re mocking. *giggles*
Can I go OT for a sec. I’m at work and only have a minute. Anything going on in the House w/ war funding?
And now for a “good for Russ Feingold” moment…
Remember “eye of a needle” and the little episode with the “money-changers” in the temple. Jesus had some of his choicest comments for the wealthy in his teachings. (Although I do think that “wealthy has to do with a person’s attitude toward wealth that with how much money they have. Remember- you can be greedy and not be very good at financial dealings.
I think an argument could be made that, over the last generation or so, the “free market” has become the new God.
Notice how often the market is described as having personality traits (jittery, anxious, optomistic, etc) as thoug it is alive.
My son, who is now 15, was raised in an agnostic/atheist/pantheist kind of home. We never taught him to reject Christianity, and we have Bibles on a shelf in our house, alongside other books on religions and philosophy, but we DID teach him to QUESTION EVERYTHING – and to run like hell from anyone who tried to tell him it was sinful to question (common in the Bible Belt, it’s seen as a weakness of faith and giving in to the devil’s temptations). We taught him it was up to him to choose his own path, and he has.
He’s now chosen to attend a Christian church, an alternative sort of place that also serves as a youth outreach center and a church for kids that the other churches don’t welcome – not exclusively, but mostly, skaters, goths, emos, kids who often wear black and have tattoos and piercings and punk haircuts – any kid that doesn’t fit the image they want to represent their youth groups. His youth pastor, who is also not the sterotypical preacher, calls them 21st century hippies.
I’m not Christian, but I spend a lot of time helping out with the kids and doing volunteer work there, to show my support for my son’s choice. He and some of the other kids have discussed how they really don’t like being called “Christian” now because of the taint that the name has been given by Bush and the RRR (Radical Religious Right), and the idiots who ride by with crosses and fish symbols on their trucks and SUVs and shout obscenities at us during peace rallies, or shout “Devil worshipers! Satanists!” when the kids are skating or just hanging out around the parking lot of the church.
The kids are actually trying to think of another name to call themselves, but for now, they just say they are Christ’s followers.
It’s sad, really.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 104
wish he’d had a good moment yesterday and objected to the UC for the mukasey vote. i really used to believe he was the one good guy in the senate. but that was yesterday.
it’s gonna take more than half a day for me to be ready to “move on” from that one.
Clinton, Biden, Dodd, Obama all were elsewhere when the Mckasey vote hit. Are we going to cross them off our lists for the primary unless they deliver results on ending the war or healthcare for everyone?
When do we start cracking a whip. Or should we marshal our strength and pick one target to make an example of?
I wonder which Presidential Candidate would be hurt the most if the Left stoped supporting them?
For a very vivid and scripturally accurate portrayal of the times that Jesus was living in, it’s hard to beat “The Mind of Jesus” by William Barclay.
To paraphrase, and probably poorly, Israel’s belief in its Ark-protected invincibility was shattered in 70BCE when the Romans marched in to Jerusalem and took over.
As part of the deal, the Romans went to the Jewish leadership – Sadducces, Pharisees and Priests – and said, “We’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse: Either you over-see the population of Israel for us, according to our policies, or we’ll wipe-out you and all of your families, and put someone else in who will.”
But, said the Romans, “Just to make it easier for you to decide, we’ll sweeten the deal – you can collect a Temple Tax from every Jew in the Roman Empire.”
During the following 70 years, Temple operations became corrupted by the influence of money flowing-in from around the empire during each annual Passover holiday.
Since no money bearing a graven image could be offered in sacrifice, the ‘Chief Priest approved’ money-changers set-up in the Temple Courtyard in order to provide pilgrims with ‘image-free’ galalean coins. There were also ‘Chief Priest approved’ incense, dove and goat sellers, as well.
During this time, the Priests and Sadducces became the wealthiest citizens in Israel and powerful land-owners. They drove around in immaculate chariots, wearing bright and clean vestments, and received ’specified in writing’ fees for each official act they performed.
The People, however, suffered greatly under Roman Rule. To be fair, the Leadership of the People were in an unbelievably difficult situation trying to both please the Romans and remain true to the People and their Religion.
Still, unrest was everywhere amongst the People and a substantial under-class of dis-enfranchised jews had accumulated around the edges of Jerusalem.
The wealthy expected a sword-bearing redeemer/messiah a la Daniel to save them from Roman rule. They saw themselves as remaining ‘pure’ in the ancient traditions and, therefore, worthy of salvation.
The reality for the masses, however, was that they were getting kicked out of their families for not being ‘pure’ enough, for being rebellious and for breaking with tradition. Jewish life, as portrayed in the book, at the time was very proscriptive – the Law specified exactly what was to be done in every situation. To break the Law, for the really conservative jews, was to become ‘impure’ and not worthy.
So, in towns like Bethsaida and Gorakhim, there collected large communities of ostracised jews, kicked out of their families for being ‘impure.’
This was not a casual thing. When someone was kicked-out of their family for being caught stealing bread, for instance – the Law said that that person should lose the hand they stole with – have it cut off. However, if God ‘withered’ that person’s hand before it could be cut-off, that was considered punishment enough.
Needless to say, Bethsaida and Gorakhim, were full of people with ‘withered’ hands and ‘eye-patches’ that were too scared – literally fearing the wrath of God – to show that their hands and eyes still worked, and so in shame they retreated from their families to the north shore of the Sea of Gallilee.
These people were called ‘paralytics’ – a mental paralysis brought on by hyterical fear of consequence, so powerful that most of them couldn’t, in fact, use the object of their shame.
Rather than coming out as a sword bearing Messiah, Jesus wraps-up his 40 days in the woods, after getting baptised by John, and goes to, wait for it – Bethsaida and Gorakhim.
When he gets there, he becomes known and wildly popular as a faith healer. He tells the paralytics that they are already forgiven in God’s sight if they Love Him.
The paralytics are miraculously healed, and the movement is off and running on its collision course with ‘authority.’
selise @ 95
Yes, apparently she couldn’t find time in her busy schedule for the Constitution.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 106
Watch the film Jesus Camp
selise,
I just sent this to Obama:
Hugh @ 110
Were she to be elected, she’d have to take an oath of office to “defend the constitution.” In fact that would be her prime dut. And in fact she has already taken an oath to “uphold the constitution.” I’m not impressed with her enthusiasm for the job. Nor am I impressed the the other presidential candidates who failed to vote.
14 Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries [a] and the delusions of their own minds.
Jeremiah 14:14
Any organization that claims to be allied with God and has a membership is a cult. You see, they have already divided the world into two groups: the believers and the non-believers. Of course the believers are better than the non-believers, and it’s all downhill from there. How about a religion where every human being is automatically a member in full standing? Anything less is pure hypocracy.
We TORTURE under Bu’ush. Mukasey knows it, and it oughta be obvious to everyone else, including all members of Congress. That’s why he evaded the direct question about waterboarding.
It’s a smelly can of decaying worms that none of them wants to open in broad daylight.
Synoia @ 10
“Doomsday cult” is a better description.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
The question is meaningless.
Here is a great diary on the Sibel Edmunds stuff:
http://dailykos.com/story/2007/11/9/11226/2103
Nothing going on in the House, I take it. What happened to Pelosi’s surprise announcement that there would be a bill to end the war?
I guess the agnostic could. I’m not sure an atheist could gain access to something that doesn’t exist.
The agnostic isn’t saying that it does exist, but they wouldn’t say that it doesn’t either. They just don’t know.
Speaking as a Christian, if it was up to me you’d be welcome no matter where you stand on that skeptical spectrum.
NOt wholly OT
human cruelty tonight on Bill Moyer’s Journal:
THOMAS CAHILL
Bill Moyers interviews best-selling historian Thomas Cahill in a far ranging interview that takes viewers from the Coliseum in Rome to death row in Texas and examines what our attitudes toward cruelty can tell us about who we are as Americans.
selise @ 84
Also, someone needs to write something very stern explainging the very real cost of their failure to take a stand:
– They make the entire Democratic party look like limp fools.
– They lose an opportunity to make the Bush Dogs more vulnerable by endorsing an Attorney General who “gets it wrong on torture,” and who sees no limits to presidential power.
– etc.
LS @ 119
You know, reading that diary makes me think than Waxman has to be holding off hearings because he doesn’t want to interfere with ongoing investigations.
Except that there has been no enforcement of the law for the past 7 years.
Speak Sibel, Speak!
Pat Robertson Endorses Giuliani:
“I don’t know whose credibility this ruins more.” ~ The Onion
cahuenga @ 125
lol!
it is a tough call.
selise @ 107
stay pissed. just focus it :)
You can thank Jean Calvin for the idea of Election, Redd. The general idea here is that there are those who are Elect, i.e., saved and destined to reside in heaven; and those who are fucked, destined to end up in a far more interesting place. The only way one could tell whether he (not she) was among the Elect was if God (big “G”) bestowed wealth upon you. This is then tied to the Protestant Work Ethic, as applies to those who do the bidding of the Elect.
It all works out very nicely, you see.
yellowsnapdragon @ 124
I thought that too. Someone awhile back on another blog, alluded to a motherlode investigation, and now I’m thinking it must be this one…way bigger than what it has looked like…If it could get concluded, it would probably solve most of what we are having to deal with constantly these days..
Hugh @ 110
i told the aide that unless she had a family emergency or she was in the hospital, i really didn’t think that was an acceptable explanation. pushed hard enough to get transferred to the person who is in charge of her schedule… apparently that had never happened to the keeper or the schedule before (the proles aren’t supposed to get past the gate keepers) and she rapidly transferred me on… never did get any more of an answer.
Fran Taylor @ 115
The challenge for believers is to see “God’s face” in everyone. IOW, a believer would realize that God made the non believer as well as the believer, and respect that.
tw3k @ 127
i confess to having trouble with the focus…
Sparkles the Iguana @ 40
There is a hierarchy in Heaven. The Christian Bible describes it. Bottom line – if you are “born again” you absolutely will go to Heaven. Romans 10: 9-10.
If not, then you will be judged at the end of the world with everyone else.
Commandments? Try these on for size…
Mafia ‘commandments’ found
I’ve heard there at lest some Bible scholars who think the point of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son (whichever version you want) was to find out if Abraham had enough sense to tell God ‘No, it’s wrong and I won’t do it’. Abraham failed the test and we’ve been stuck with the results ever since.
LS @ 129
can you give me any reason to think this? is there any evidence at all? please?
karnak12 @ 133
True but if you and your church act against what Jesus said about helping the poor I don’t think you have been born again in Christ. The antiChrist’s church maybe but not Jesus’s real church.
P J Evans @ 135
Do you have a link? I have long thought the Bible was an inteligence test with some false answeres in it to see if we were smart enough to find them and strong enough to say no this is wrong despite the anger of literalists.
Things Come Undone @ 137
I don’t think I said anything about a church
Karnak12@ 139 Nope you didn’t that was me.
Last time I checked, the gays weren’t telling me I can’t have birth control. I’m so tired to the whining from these scoundrels. They’ve spent twenty years teaching everybody to equate Christianity with hate. How darn mean of us to notice. Insufferable brats.
“If we could get an Ellen DeGeneres figure who is likable and popular to ‘come out’ as an evangelical, many more people would have positive impressions of the movement as a whole.”
It never seems to occur to them that a large part of why Ellen is so likable and popular is because she’s NOT some whackjob Jesus freak.
things @ 138
It was part of a comment by Lizzy L at Making Light:
What are the commandments about, but learning how to behave so that you don’t harm others?
Those of Moses were aimed at people who’d been in servitude for long enough that they’d forgotten how to handle responsibility; those of Jesus are aimed at hard-headed (and hard-hearted) people who have forgotten what it’s like being weak, poor, and sick, and at the mercy of the wealthy and powerful.
peanutbutter @ 118
Speaking as an atheist, why would we care about getting into a heaven we don’t think exists? We may “do unto others, etc.” but the Golden Rule per se has no meaning, nor does heaven. So yes, meaningless question. What’s the point?
they should all be labeled for exactly what they are. white collar criminals. most learned how to game the system by watching their family members and close family friends who came before them. clearly, it’s working very well for them. the ultimate cons willing to sacrifice anyone or anything for more power and more wealth. yet somehow they enjoy a sort of celebrity status. people give them the benefit of the doubt when in fact they have never given us reason to give them that much power. not once have they ever solved or answered critical questions about current or past crisis. it’s always about moving on and looking forward because god forbid they would have to hold one of their own responsible for the crimes against this country. fuck em all
Things Come Undone @ 108
very minor point:
[from the video credit, above. . .]
ms. menzel’s first name
begins with an “i” not an “e“:
idina, for the record.
p e a c e
I think they may want to consult Matthew 19:16-23 (Luke also has this) and James 2:1-13. They are the antithesis of all they proclaim to uphold and like unto the Pharisees and hypocrites who Yeshua chastised.
maybe in the addenda from the middle ages.. somewhere after the call for wars of aggression..
or maybe Mark Twain wrote it and “slipped it in”, like he did with the Shakespeare/Bacon history..
err.. could it be that the spiritualists “spoke to the dead”?
most probably, is that the preachers huck faithful people for love of profits. (sic)