(Glenn thinks he’s a grassroots phenomenon, I think the whole things a little LaRouche-ie, but Sam sent this via email and it strikes me as probably pretty close to the truth — jh)
I live in a very rural area and “next door” to a family of intense, self proclaimed, “Ron Paulites.”They are “Christians,” home schoolers but reject Dobson. They organize meetups for Columbia County, New York and recently rallied and spoke on the steps of the captiol in Albany. They make homemade Ron Paul signs and then go on excursions to “Paint the Town Ron” (freeway blogger stuff). Their cars are covered in homemade Ron Paul signs. They distribute copies of the Aaron Russo movie http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ (a Roger and Me-style search for the law that says you must pay income tax, a section arguing that the Fed is a plot by bankers to enslave us, and then into issues such as the Patriot Act). They also hand out Alex Jones dvds (9/11 stuff). They say Iraq is a disaster, income tax is unconstitutional, self reliance is the key, bankers cause inflation so that we the people are kept underfoot….
Their meetups consist of a wide range of people including Democrats, lesbians, old school Republicans. They have a lot of energy, a dose of paranoia. They hate Romney because he tries to buy votes. They hate Rudy because he is fascist (and have seen Realrudy films and are shocked that NYC’ers don’t love Rudy). Huckabee is too hawkish. Thompson is an empty suit.
With a little more success they will rip apart the Republican party. I wish them well and all the luck in the world.
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AmI first?
Zed, maybe?
Oh yes- the BEST of luck!
OOPS, Toby, beat me by seconds! Congrats.
I’m seeing Ron Paul signs here in Texas as of late. Personally, I’d take Ron Paul a million times over a Ghouliani any day, if I had to.
msmolly @ 4
Hey, I’m willing to share *g*
Is it THE Sam Seder?
I live in Upstate New York, not in Columbia County and I can tell you that the ONLY signs that I’ve seen out in my county for a GOP presidential wannabee are those for Ron Paul. No one else. Nada.
Welcome Sam!
Say – are they getting ready to vote on Mukasey?
I just rambled past a TV somewhere and Dan Abrams was on talking to Huffington (Ariana – sorry had instanteous block) about it with Pat Buchanan.
Good to see ya, Sam!
Pittsburgh got a great Ron Paul sign at the John Edwards Labor Day rally…
It would be interesting to see just how strong the *Republican* antiwar movement is.
I wish Rep. Paul all the success in the world.. and recommend that his followers vow not to throw their support to Ghoul in the invent that their candidate does not secure the Republican nomination :P
Meanwhile, remember the “uncorroborated report” of terrorist threats against malls discussed in one of the threads below?.. well,here’s what Faux News has done with the story over the last few hours.. banner headline followed by:
“Al Qaeda Targeting U.S. Malls Over Holidays
FBI confirms it has issued a warning of possible attacks against shopping malls in Los Angeles and Chicago”
…so somehow, the FBI’s press release, which itself stated was uncorroborated and therefore released purely to facilitate FUD, became “American Attacked!” by the time Roger Ailes got through with it. Cool.
Sam, you Rock!!! Mr. LS says, “I love that guy”!!!
EPU’d
recoveringlurker says:
November 8th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
FWIW, Raw Story is reporting that the National Journal’s CongressDaily reported that DiFi “may now be waivering in her support” for retroactive immunity on the telcom issue. She reportedly said: “I did support [immunity] in the intel bill and I’m giving it further thought.” ??
OT,
Is the White House now America’s “Green Zone?”
So… what are the odds that Ronpaul would run as a third-party insane antiwar candidate?
The instructions for that “dose of paranoia” call it to be taken every six hours.
And it’s a large dose.
I think this could be right. The Republican party is rudderless right now, and the candidates for president don’t really have all that much in common. I don’t think the Christian Right will flock to Paul, but there are enough Libertarians out there that have previously thought of themselves as Republicans so that the fault line could be the Libertarians vs. the Christian Right wing. But the situation is too fluid for me to read at this time.
Bob in HI
Astral Technician @ 16
Why do you say that?
Ron Paul mania is ALL over Arizona….. home made signs, “Google Ron Paul”
Everyone needs to know…..
If elected President….Paul plans to abolish Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security…. ALL public schools, privatize police, fire, all services so…… If you want your granny living in a card board box begging for pennies…… go for it….. NOT ME…
AND Arizona is still in morning loosing you from AAR… :(
katymine @ 21
But at least we wouldn’t be at war!
I think a lot of the “paranoia” is warranted. I think the “official story” of the last 7 years is the real “conspiracy”. JMHO
Dear Ron Paul supporters: embrace your inner Nader. Stick with your man to the bitter end ;-)… independent third party candidacy.. heck, please call your party the New or Reformed Republican party, just to further confuse rethug voters. We’ll be happy to lend you some campaign workers and graphic artists to make all of your stuff ‘look’ like Ghoul’s.. just think: your inner Nader… :)
About 12-15 years ago, Utne Reader had a 360 degree political map that tracked all the different types of political organizations across the entire spectrum from left to right and back. I’m pretty sure I still have a copy of it boxed away somewhere. The thing I remember off the top is that by doing it as a 360 degree look, some of the groups that are political opposites in folks eyes are a lot closer together than we might think.
Sam!!!
Hey, I’d take Paul over any of the other Republican candidates. At least he’d end the war. But he can’t win in the general election!!!
LS @ 20
It just seems to me that since the White House has routed all domestic communications to the NSA, we must all be insurgents now.
katymine @ 21
Mercifully at least some of those items are state responsibilities, right?
Austin, Texas, one of the most progressive cities in the “Homeland”, no longer has Air America on the radio at all.
dakine01 @ 25
Like… Wahhabis and fundies.
Kennedy speaking on Mukasey now
Loo Hoo. @ 26
Those are two very endearing traits. Possibly his only ones.
OT–Barbara Boxer speaking on CSPAN now.
Oops, now Sen. Kennedy.
Eli @ 22
Well, not at war on innocent Iraqis.
More like at war on ordinary Americans.
This particular “at least” ain’t enough for me, not by a loooooong chalk!
FunnyDiva
With, the lone exception of DiFi, I love the Dem’s use of time on the Senate Floor…
Eli @ 22
And a decent congress would hold him in check. He can’t just do away with social programs on his own.
The take-away lesson for Democrats is that supporting the Constitution and peace is damn good politics. (Harry Truman said it more succinctly: “Good policy is good politics.” But the fools running today’s Democratic party need “good policy” spelled out for them.)
To be a bit of a broken record on the subject: we should be figuring out how to leverage this. Things Come Undone had a nice suggestion last night.
Fern @ 28
And they’re supposed to use WHAT revenue to pick up the slack?!!!
Both parties now have significant fault lines: maybe a new 3rd party forming?
PS Teddy Kennedy up on cspan 2 before vote in senate
I’ve noticed Ron Paul signs in rural Florida as well. I think he’s becoming the safe haven for the conservative rural Christians who are uncomfortable with Romney and Guliani. I would not be surprised if there was some kind of shock in store for Iowa and/or New Hampshire. If Guliani does become the nominee, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ron Paul go the 3rd party route, either.
Professor Foland @ 38
Paul-Lieberman, running as the Conservative party’s nominees :P I’m sure Lieberman can be (easily) convinced tochange his position on the war in exchange for a few more hours of self-aggrandizing relevancy.
The county I live in had a high rate of Perot voters. I don’t know this for sure, but I heard it was one of the highest in the country. I can only imagine the same kind of people will take an interest in Ron Paul.
Now that’s a warm fuzzy thought!!!
cleter @ 41
Is it possible we could have Ron Paul *and* a fundie running as third party candidates if Rudy is nominated? Is that too much to hope for?
What ever happened to Perot?
LS @ 29
I can tell you a little story about Border Media Productions and why that is if you really would like to know. I related it to the other pups at our meet up last weekend. KOKE was meant to fail…
Ron Paul is a one trick pony…..
I want a full service Presidential candidate…
I am not going there … at least the congress will hold him in check…. well we are seeing just how well that is going right now AND just exactly could an executive order do?
cleter @ 46
He’s still around running some business stuff.
I’m just trying to imagine who Ron Paul would choose as a running mate.
Ross Perot?
Steve Forbes?
One of the Ayn Rand-ers at Red State?
Of course, if he really wanted to make a splash, he’d choose Ru Paul.
Loo Hoo. @ 15
I cited that same article once or twice, Loo hoo, on an earlier thread or two… *g*
katymine @ 48
I’m with you, Katymine.
Looking forward to the Seattle meetup on Saturday!
FunnyDiva
Peterr @ 50
I would like for you to select a name for that party :)
Eli @ 45
this is interesting.. I found a Dobson magazine in my mailbox the other day, as did, I think, everybody else on our block, prolly put their by my happy/peppy fundie neighbors. So he’s tryin’ to get the word out.
What if some weird sh*t happens, and Paul gets the GOP nomination, picks, say, Hagel as his running mate, and they get to take on pro-war Hillary? How would that play out?
Peterr @ 50
Chuck Hagel.
Peterr @ 50
Interestingly, he has said that the closest politician to his agenda is Kucinich. That is the, so far right that you run into the so far left. I don’t know what Kucinich has to say about it. I think they both just see the current system as so corrupt that they end up agreeing that this can’t go on this way….something like that.
Peterr @ 50
Gahhh! NO NO NO! That would drive everyone back into the Ghouliani camp. Can’t have nobody who’s openly and professionally a crossdresser!
FunnyD
cleter @ 55
Something like 1964?
cleter @ 56
No, he *must* find someone named Newman. Anyone. He couldn’t lose.
Margot @ 43
Heh, mine has set records for Nader, twice! Heck, we elected a Green Mayor, at one point… ;-)
Funnydiva2002 @ 52
Me too…
Seattle Firepup Meetup Nov 10th at 11am – 1pm
2504 4th Ave
Seattle, WA
anyone else in the area, please join us
cleter @ 46
Up until June, I worked at a place who used perot’s company as a consulting/management firm. He’s apparently still around.
cleter @ 55
the neocons stage a coup …. :P After Darth retains Generalissimo Musharref as a consultant
Professor Foland @ 38
However insulting it is to Hillary supporters.
Hissssssssssss Schumer up.
Why the shopping mall ‘leak’ at this time?
Because we must surveil to catch ‘em.
Does the Cato Institute back Ron Paul?
As I recall, Paul is NOT in favor of privatization of social security but rather in favor of a “lock box” that keeps congress from using the money to cover budget shortfalls. Isn’t that right?
I’m certainly not a fan- but his positions should be presented accurately.
I think this is great. All the repubs fall in love with Paul, he is ignored by the party, left out of debates, not given the chance to speak at the convention. Then all the repubs can be ticked off and not bother voting. Works for me.
Schumer says the justice department has become adrift, rudderless.
That’s interesting. I thought it was toeing the Cheney line.
Peterr @ 50
Ann Coulter!
cleter @ 55
Please put down the pipe.
Eli @ 60
Newman, you say?
After all the spying and tapping stuff…..Perot paranoid rantings about being spied on now seem pretty plausible
katymine @ 21
Isn’t he also anti-abortion, anti-contraception, anti-reproductive rights?
Chuck, Shut the F*ck up! Why did they allot time to DiFi and Schumer??? Aargh…
I was at work, CTuttle! Gotta teach the little scamps, ya know. I can only check in once in a while! *G*
Paul seems to be servin up a rare brew- christian fundamental populism with a libertarian twist….tastes like chicken.
Loo Hoo. @ 72
No way! He is not that kind of “Repuke”. She’s sort of the McCain or Ghouliani or Romney type….Paul is nowhere near those people.
Frugal, probably lower income family(that cant afford signage) shows support for their candidate and they get mocked….Or at the very least, written about their “odd” actions……
What does that say?
We actually have a candidate that wants to restore civil liberties and bring our troops home (all of them. NOW.)
and some still find it in their make up to deny this man his rightful place.
This man has trained 20 years for just this moment.
Do not deny him the chance to deliver us back to our constitution.
Loo Hoo. @ 78
Capiche…! *g*
rwcole @ 79
mmm hmmm…but only the WHITE meat!
FunnyDiva
Dear Sen. Schumer:
Cataloging the sins of the Gonzales DOJ does not in any way justify replacing him with a guy who condones torture.
neurophius @ 71
Sorta like the Senate.
solai @ 70
Sounds like what the democratic party is doing to the us. We don’t see you. We don’t hear you. (But we do need your money.)
Hmmm. @ 66
And, what’s Sen. “This is the best we can do” saying?
rwcole @ 69
Heard him speak on this…. he would stop “young” people from donating but leave us Old Farts to feed off the government teat and set up “private accounts” and make the young people more self reliant as us old ones will drag down everyone else.
Yet he did not elaborate HOW he will continue to pay out benefits for the old folks….. since it is the youth paying in that pays for it…
@ 10
Watching C-SPAN2 and Schumer. I was listening and I think Spectre said they might vote around 10/10:30.
Fuck Schumer and Diane Fiendstein. There’s no reason to okay this guy simply because he’s the lesser of um, an evil….
STTP in Ohio @ 73
Are you saying weird sh*t doesn’t happen in presidential elections? You put down the pipe.
Funnydiva2002 @ 83
Are you suggesting he’s racist, or am I just misunderstanding?
katymine @ 88
Wasn’t that the Bush plan, also?
All right, I have a bit of work to do. Call me if Schumer collapses or they vote.
Toby Wollin @ 87
That was DiFi’s main meme, too… Aarghhhh…
Eli @ 30
Or some of the libertarians being close to liberal. It was really quite fascinating. I wish I knew where my copy was. I think I may have to go do some digging through stacks of paper now.
You know how interesting all of this is by the way the media is trying to supress Paul (CNN was claiming that their polls show him with 0% support).
I’m reposting something I wrote in comment to Phoenix Woman’s Ron Paul post, just downstream:
(sigh)…….you know, PW, I generally dig your posts…but this one isn’t particularly well thought out. You’ve left out a very important aspect of Paul’s life-long governmental philosophy, that being the fact that he has *always* regarded the Executive Branch to be subservient to the Legislative Branch! If he were somehow elected President (not too likely, right?) he’d have a *very* difficult time attempting to push through his agenda, particularly in light of the likely big Democratic gains in the coming election. Truth be told, if we could get enough left-leaning Dems elected to Congress, we’d probably have a better chance of actually passing liberal reforms under Paul than we would under a Clinton presidency (given the pressure she’d be under from the corporate press).
As it so happens, I’m actually going to register as a Republican so that I can vote for him in my state’s primary (anyone whose state has an “open” primary can simply vote for him without this trouble). Why would I vote for a libertarian conservative Republican when I’m a far-Lefty? Because he’s the best of the GOP pack, because he’s anti-war and pro-Constitution, and most of all, because he would radically change the timbre of the Democratic challenger’s rhetoric!
I am SICK TO DEATH of hearing Hillary pushing for war with Iran and am shattered by her unwillingness to get our troops out of Iraq. If Paul was her opponent, she’d be forced (ironically, by his antiwar stance) to actually become antiwar, which would be a nice change, I think we can both agree.
In addition to what he would do to the Democrats, he would also splinter the GOP. Think about it: What would happen to all of these Republicans that insist that we need a lifetime of war? There is no third party for them to go to and it takes years to form the organization to field a candidate, so…..they’d be up the proverbial shit creek! The ones who vote GOP no matter what would be forced to adopt and defend Paul’s antiwar, pro-Constitution stance (ah, what a beautiful sight it would be to behold!). The GOP would be in bits and pieces for years, with myriad squabbling groups unable to find a center.
No matter how you look at it, Dems voting for Paul is a GOOD thing that *you should encourage* rather than trying to bash him. Look, I understand that some “Democrats” see him as some weird savior (the same ones who were stupidly charmed by McCain, the last time around), but that’s a *very* small group that you don’t need to worry about. Your real concern should be derailing anti-Constitution fascists like Rudy- which doesn’t just mean voting for the Democratic candidate, it means gaming the Republican voting process.
The GOP (at least, at the moment) controls our voting machines and they use that control on Election Day. Do they do the same thing during the primaries? Well, look what happened to Lieberman. He lost the primary and then somehow (through the magic of vote hacking?) ends up winning the general election! If this shit were to go on again, I’d rather that Ron Paul was the default rather than Rudy or any of the other Thugs.
Think of this as a chess game that will require some bizarre, completely out-of-left-field move that will throw off the opponent’s strategy to the extent that it destroys their game. Paul’s two main political attributes (anti-war, pro-Constitution) completely overshadows his negatives and that in combination with his “weak Executive” philosophy would make him the VERY BEST person for our candidate to run against, or in the case of GOP vote tampering, to lose against.
STTP in Ohio @ 85
Chuck; ‘…head and shoulders above…’
How can anyone deny these votes?
MILITARY COMMISSIONS. RP NO…..HC YES
PATRIOT ACT 1.. RP NO ……….HC YES
PATRIOT ACT 2. .RP NO ……….HC YES.
IRAQ WAR.. .RP NO………HC YES
WAR WITH IRAN. .RP NO………HC YES.
WIRETAPPING. .RP NO………HC YES
INCREASED AID TO ISRAEL. RP NO…..HC. YES
EMINENT DOMAIN..RP..NO………HC.. NV
NAFTA………RP..NO………..HC..YES
CAFTA………RP..NO………..HC..YES
IMF………..RP..NO………..HC..YES
WORLD BANK….RP..NO………..HC..YES
WTO………..RP..NO………..HC..YES
NORTH AMERICAN UNION..RP..NO…HC..?
NATIONAL ID….RP..NO……….HC..YES
IMMIGRANT DRIVERS LICENSE..RP..NO..HC..YES
marymccurnin @ 86
You have a point.
Toby Wollin @ 87
That the fact that we’d get something worse is not a fact to be dismissed. He needs acting lessons, though. Sounding way phony.
CTuttle @ 98
above what, Chuck? Above Gonzalez? Shoot, the guy was a mental and physical shrimp.
What’s the NORTH AMERICAN UNION?
Careful what you wish for. Today, the Dem Congress approved the extension of NAFTA to South America. They will approve Mukasey.
64% said in a poll a few weeks ago that we need a 3rd Party, and that was near 50% of Dems included.
Things like Medicare, and such General Welfare programs: As President, Paul could argue against them, but they are the law of the land until Congress legislates otherwise. He can’t really do anything about that, except tout any legislation that might be proposed.
He CAN order the troops home. Even if Congress voted an official War on Iraq, he could command all the troops home as part of his “strategy” for winning it, and no one could stop him.
He’s also talking about bringing home the troops in Europe and Korea. Think how that affects the military budget demands.
If he runs 3rd party on:
• bring ALL the troops home
• stop taxing people on their labor
• end the drug war
• restore the Constitution (meaning no more President-driven wars)
he’s not only going to do better than Perot did (remember that crazy funny-looking guy that said NAFTA would destroy us. No, not the good-looking Democrat who said he would put protections into it, but didn’t. The funny one.), he’ll do better than Hillary/Obama, Ghouliani/Mitt.
As to paranoia: if a person isn’t paranoid about our current situation, they just haven’t been paying attention to the news for a few years.
as wigwam says:
cleter @ 46
Well, he allowed Pat Buchanan to co-opt his “Reform Party” in Y2K.
Katymine
Yeah– I just checked his website and saw the same thing —that’s the clusterfuck plan….Why the fuck does he think people will like it any better comin from him than they did comin from clusterfuck…that’s the plan that killed the clusterfucker- not iraq- the social security plan.
Libertarians’ denial of economies of scale reminds me of flat-earth proponents.
“It would mean surrendering the Department . . . to Dick Cheney, David Addington, unchecked.”
Not exactly, Senator.
Defeating this nomination would mean you and your colleagues on Capitol Hill would have to actually oversee the actions of the DOJ, and hold them accountable.
Senator, have you ever heard of impeachment?
LS @ 91
From the links I followed from an FDL thread on him from earlier this week, yes. Not everyone has drawn the same conclusion, however. And some would argue that he’s being judged more harshly than others for the same behavior.
And on that note, hope to see everyone at Late and Late Late Nite. Sorry to drop an R-bomb and run. Wasn’t intentional!
FunnyDiva
That American Chap @ 96
Can I borrow this?
rockyb @ 99
Heh, not too shabby, until you read why he voted that way…
cleter @ 90
Didn’t mean to offend you. Just a weak attempt at humor. After all, you even said that would be weird!
STTP in Ohio @ 112
neurophius @ 84
Speaking of Gonzales, he has his first lucrative speaking gig lined up at the University of Florida. The student-run speakers bureau is going to give him 40 grand. I’m trying to organize students to get it stopped. I don’t think he should be rewarded for his lawlessness with fat speaking gigs. This is his very first one, so it’s symbolically very important. If you want to hit Gonzo in his wallet, demand that they cancel the gig. Here’s the contact information:
Fax: 352-392-8072
Phone 352-392-1665 ext. 306
email: accent@sg.ufl.edu
Can I borrow this?
Borrow it? Err…..how and for what purpose?
LS @ 113
Don’t Bogart…
I am watching one of the most surreal scenes I have ever seen on CSPAN. Chuck Schumer is making an eloquent and impassioned speech on why Bush ought to be impeached and Alberto Gonzales should be criminally prosecuted. Only problem is the purpose of the speech is to explain why Mukasey is his guy and has to be confirmed. Hey, its either Mukasey or the President will make good on his threat to abandon the United States Department of Justice to twist in the wind for the rest of his term, what you gonna do? (Pssst. – I would deny Mukasey and impeach the other ‘tards).
cleter @ 114
Why don’t you get that moron from the Kerry speech to get his sorry ass tasered again. Andrew Myer, right?
rockyb @ 99
Tell me why Immigrants shouldn’t have driver’s licenses.
And why a National ID is inherently a bad idea?
On the other hand, Ghouliani wants a police state. He believes in torture and war, and spying on Americans, and the loss of all of your rights.
I’m going for Edwards.
And why a National ID is inherently a bad idea?
It’s basically an internal passport, the “let me see your papers” facet of a dictatorship.
That American Chap @ 121
Like they can’t already do that.
mack @ 119
A National ID is not a bad idea, as long as it’s provided free of charge… Not at the exorbitant fees for a mandatory Passport…
Hey’ they’re voting on Mukasey RIGHT NOW.
C-SPAN link
Live blog at Big Orange
Schumer is getting his time from the Republican side of the debate. LOL
Schumer is torturing me…wahhhhhhhhh…he wants 5 more minutes of torture….I’m sick of his BS…it’s interfering with my breathing…I’m dry drowning….
STFU, and get it over with.
Jacques @ 124
My prediction: Pass, 76-23.
OT
England is bracing for a tidal wave in a couple of hours. Near Norfolk and Suffolk. We just read about it on BBC.
That American Chap @ 121
Hey, they are already listening in on all our conversations and monitoring all the internet traffic – third piece of the puzzle, no?
Like they can’t already do that.
True ’nuff………but a National ID actually codifies it and gives it the country’s stamp of approval. We need *less* of this shit, not more.
STTP in Ohio @ 112
I just don’t want any more presidential weird. I don’t want to have to stay up late on Election Night. I just want a good old-fashioned landslide. A Democratic one. I want the hapless, tear-stained GOP schmoe to concede 5 minutes after the polls close in California. Is that too much to ask?
And Ron Paul’s coalition of the weird makes me nervous.
Jacques @ 124
I’m watching CSPAN right now, and Schumer is speaking, they are not voting. What the hell is going on???
That American Chap @ 130
Rotsa ruck GI.
This is an interesting this post. I will show it to kiddo
lahoma.
My biggest problem with Paul is his isolationism.
While I like the idea of minding one’s own business on the micro level, on the macro level i like the idea of a sleeping tiger better than an ostrich. The fact that we are closer to a hyena these days in no way should send us into total retreat to compensate.
This is still a strong nation – it must be to have survived the past 7 years – total retreat from the world at large is not the appropriate response to this administration’s thoughtless thuggery. We need aggressive compassion to follow reckless aggression.
That American Chap @ 121
I would concur, but, a Driver’s License is generally needed to traverse our public streets in a private vehicle anyways…
Jacques @ 124
6:49pm PST here and Schumer’s still talking on CSPAN2 (via web). No vote yet.
Hmmm.
Uh, raven, I’d rather not have the help of Taser Dude. Thanks, though.
katymine @ 48
Amen, sister!
What a sad day for America when we have to accept a poor choice because it is the best we can do. What a shame. Shumer better be right.
cleter @ 138
Just brainstormin up here in Athens, always trying to help the Gators out.
smapdi @ 103
I don’t know what it is but I hate it already.
Shorter Schumer: I believe in the tooth fairy.
raven @ 118
Yeah, but in this case, the Taserer might well be the speaker…
LS @ 132
From what Specter said before Schumer spoke, the actual vote will take place around 10:30 ET or so.
I think some folks are using “they’re voting” to mean “they’re taking up the final motion on the nomination,” not “they’re calling the roll.”
So, are they approving Gonzales 2.0?
Tell me why Immigrants shouldn’t have driver’s licenses.
And why a National ID is inherently a bad idea?
There are several reasons….
1. The government should have no more lists…especially illegals…It puts them at greater risk.
2.A national ID is a precursor for a united ID used for banking, legal issues, credit issues, medical records and other things…
We must NEVER give this government that kind of trust.
They do not DESERVE ANY trust, especially with lists and private, personal information.
This is why there are so many credit theft issues in the first place…The government authorized the private use of our Federal Social Security number…
Look at what has happened with our credit reports…
What do you think would happen if we gave the government 10 times that amount of info our credit report has.
It would be complete chaos and data theft in 5 years.
Peterr @ 108
This a-hole (Schumer) has got to be kidding.
Like Mukasey will serve as anything other than Darth and Darth Jr’s mouthpiece just as Gonzo did.
Fern @ 142
google it.
rockyb @ 99
Hillary Clinton’s voting record.
Ron Paul’s voting record.
Let’s be truthful.
Two hours remaining split between both sides, so, I wonder when the vote will occur…
snowbird42 @ 140
I think the absolute *best* we can hope for is apolitical prosecutions of regular domestic cases, but ‘tapping and torture would still be a-okay.
CTuttle @ 111
I’d be interested in a little explanation of your comment there, CT.
CTuttle @ 151
It’s like Santa Clause…tomorrow, we wake up…and, and…more of the same.
R’s only have 1 person to speak, it’ll be less than 2 hrs.
rockyb @ 146
We don’t have to give it to them, they’re stealing it. They’re wiretapping to get it. They have far more info than what’s in our credit reports.
I would concur, but, a Driver’s License is generally needed to traverse our public streets in a private vehicle anyways…
Yeah, fine….then why force a National ID on us? I shouldn’t have to identify myself if I’m walking down the street and minding my own business…….isn’t that in the Bill of Rights, more or less?
Oh right, that’s just another “goddamned piece of paper” to Commander Codpiece.
LS @ 149
I want an answer from a Paul supporter.
Schumer using the old Mukasey will remove politics from the DOJ and he will, no doubt, do this by championing Bush’s unilateral Executive.
Specter having a hard time finding Senators to speak on Mukasey’s behalf. The Republicans probably thought it was more important to get a drink and dinner.
Salazar ye old gang of fourteen member says no to Mukasey.
Salazar, is against Mukasey…
LS @ 120
Me, too LS.
Edwards has said some weird sh*t about Iran that I don’t like. But, over all, he is the most progressive. And I hate HRC because she is rebug lite. And I do not trust Obama since Emanuel helped him up through the ranks in Illinois.
smapdi @ 158
I want a new Harley.
Perhaps the “best” we can hope for is Hillary Clinton. Depressing.
lahoma
Fern @ 142
Google it for the long story….
Reader’s digest version is that a secret treaty already in the works where Canada, US & Mexico will become a single country, abolish unions and the dollar and then have the currency Amero which will wipe out our debt. Then you add the super transcontinental highway from a port in Mexico to Canada to this mix
raven @ 163
I want a new Harley from a Paul supporter.
And by “Harley,” I mean, “Nikon D300.”
That American Chap @ 96
I have to agree with this post. There are a lot of issues on the table, but you have to prioritize them. The most important issue, bar none, is respect for the Constitution. Paul seems to believe that and says it in public. The second is the current doctrine of preventive war — name your country it doesn’t matter. He seems to be against that. If we didn’t have candidates on our own side who believe that these issues are central (and we do, thank God), I would vote for him. The Constitution trumps abortion rights. Sorry to say it. But being waterboarded without recourse to the courts seems more important to me than having to go to Canada to get an abortion.
rockyb @ 146
erm
Most identity theft occurs in the private sector:
financial and retail organizations.
What is required is sane and competent policy development and enforcement – not retreating to storing wampum under our mattresses so that the govment can’t track it.
We actually have some good fundamentals in place, but enforcement is KEY.
Which is why Telco Amnesty must fail.
The problem is not the technology – or the laws.
It is the lack of balance in the circles of power.
Salazar ex Arizona AG.
Maybe it’s gonna be beat up the lawyers time here too.
Hope you’re wrong, Eli. Just this once.
Damn! I’ve got to go watch the vote…..it’s like “rubber-necking” at the scene of a horrible car wreck, isn’t it?
Signing off fer now.
Loo Hoo. @ 170
Really? I *always* hope I’m wrong.
Hmmm. @ 168
Hey, that idiot is from Colorado, not Arizona. We got enough crappy asswipe politicians already; don’t need Salazar too!
CTuttle @ 161
That’s a surprise, at least to me…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA_Superhighway
Fern @ 153
Fern, many of those votes were for true Libertarian reasons, specifically, all the foreign policy votes, by no means, am I endorsing or defending HRC’s votes, I’d have voted along the very same lines as RP, but, for a very divergent reason…
Hi, Snowbird -
Aville? Early January?
neurophius @ 174
Me too. I figured all the “moderates” would be in the tank. It’ll still take a filibuster to stop him, though.
Hmmm. @ 168
You mean, Colorado?
bmaz @ 173
Behold the blogosphere in all its self-correcting majesty! Thanks bmaz.
LS @ 132
Vote expected approx 10:30. Salazar (D-CO) is now politely calling Mukasey a moron
What is the North American Union?
In short the answer is:
(but it goes much much deeper than this)
My personal conspiracy theory is:
The value of the US dollar against the Canadian and Austrailian dollar are almost equal.
The Mexican peso used to be 180 pesos=$1.00 USD now it is at
112 mexican peso = $1.00USD. They are equalizing our currency and by 2009 we will be a North American Union, consisting of Mexico, the US and Canada.
We will become one, just like the European Union did….70% of Europeans were against this and they did it any way.
They have converged all their currency except for the British Pound and that will be finished next year as well.
We had better wake up, America.
neurophius @ 175
It’s probably one of those deals where he got word that Mucousey is gonna git confirmed, so go ahead and vote “NO” to score some points on the “Liberal scale.” This is how J. Low Lieberman and ilk can claim, “We vote with the Dems 90% of the time,” and other bogus nonsense like that.
mack @ 119
Video
REAL answers
Please vote for a new Democrat for president in the primaries. Don’t vote HRCDLC.
lahoma
I am being forced to reevaluate Salazar. I had thought that he was a total DINO…
IMHO, People, myself included (although I’d never vote for him) like Ron Paul because he’s telling them the truth. He’s not cheerleading for the war. He’s not sugarcoating the trouble we’re in. And he’s not giving evasive answers. That’s the attraction.
http://www.spp.gov/
This is the “official” North American Union sort of template….
The sky is falling!
neurophius @ 186
Tell me this isn’t catch and release. Are we talking 51-49 squeaker?
rockyb @ 182
Unfortunately, if this is true – the country we would become would be the US, only bigger. And I am fond of this somewhat odd northern country, and its plucky dollar.
neurophius @ 186
A MADINO? Mostly A Democrat In Name Only
neurophius @ 187
Yea, and Al Wynn voted for DKDC’s (Dennis K) Cheney Impeachment Resolution. Wynn isn’t so bad after all either!
Kabuki dances…nothing more, nothing less.
Salazar, could be a bellweather, if 41 Dem’s say Nay, Mukasey’s nomination would be in jeopardy…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 185
It’s nice to have you commenting a lot tonight.
Huckleberry up.
solai @ 187
“He may be crazy, but at least he’s a straight shooter.” That hasn’t really worked out all that well for us…
But I’m perfectly happy for Ronpaul to get the antiwar word out and fracture the GOP.
neurophius @ 186
When the chips are down and his vote really counts, Salazar is usually DINO.
CTuttle @ 194
I thought Reid made sure it was a simple majority upperdown vote already.
CTuttle @ 194
No, it is a straight up and down vote.
OK, so maybe I shouldn’t take Salazar at face value…but his remarks did surprise me.
musicsleuth @ 191
Better popcorn yet: 50-50, and then Darth strides into the Chamber, Imperial March blaring.
While the EU was created by treaties, the US cant be bothered to honor treaties, I dont see this happening.
I’m sorry but the whole AU thing is a delusion wrapped around a Texas traffic project (pork).
If Ron Paul won, it would mean the dismantling of the current system of government. Imagine a much smaller DOD, no SSI, no Medicare, no FDA or other regulatory agency. It would be hilarious. But besides that we’d be on floor laughing uncontrollably while the international markets trash the dollar (more than it is today under Bush) and the stock market goes all the way down to 200, it would be fun not to have an IRS, which would go out of existence any way because Americans would be out of work.
Hugh @ 200
@#$%^&*@!!!
Hugh @ 200
That Harry Reid, what a wily old fighter.
He’s been using the rope-a-dope strategy for the past year.
neurophius @ 201
Perhaps, at long last, he’s had enough.
Hey, it’s happened to a lot of folks, including many who find their way here to the ‘Lake.
We’ll just have to wait and see what he says — and does — tomorrow.
Hugh @ 192
He must be thinking about next Nov.
Graham criical of the Bush Administration excesses which he rubberstamped just like he will rubberstamp the Mukasey confirmation who, in turn, will rubberstamp the Bush Administration excesses. This is kabuki stacked on kabuki on top of kabuki.
LS @ 188
If this website is accurate, this looks to me to be a long way from an EU kind of arrangement. I’ll stop hyperventilating now.
Bernie Sanders speaking now…no question where he stands!
The ACLU has a video called Ghosts of Abu Ghraib that it is sending out to people willing to have house party showings. Don’t know if you have to be a card carring member, but I’m thinking you do not need to be.
Prabhata @ 204
Ron Paul as President might submit bills to do all of the above. However, that does not mean Congress would pass them and allow him to do all of the above.
Even though I posted a few “links” to the North American Union, etc., that does not mean that I believe it is an issue or not. The Trans-Texas Corridor is real. Highway 69 in Texas is real, I have seen the signs for it. Noriega confirmed that when he was here at FDL, citing that new ports in Mexico and a better highway from south Texas was warranted, so before anyone goes off on me as a kook, I’m just linking to what I see and what I know. (Just to clarify myself, I keep an open mind on all of these things) I’m not a supporter of Paul or anyone else…only Edwards, and that is only for now.
Hugh @ 200
Did we lose this one already at the unanimous consent decree?
Eli @ 206
Well, I agree with the dope part.
Chatted last night with an avid Paul supporter outside the grocery. This is deep red country. She had 3 Paul bumper stickers.
She was well informed. Worried about Pakistan, scared by the administration – afraid something was going to happen before the election (terror attack, epidemic etc). Chose Paul because she could support him and stay within the R party. Said she liked the idea of taking home her whole pay check. Seemed to believe he’d tax the corps and govt services would continue to be provided.
Probably early 30s, black, very articulate, in prosperous business dress. Once she realized I wasn’t a Paul prospect, we had a good talk and hugged on parting. My guess, she’ll vote dem if Paul doesn’t make it. No idea why she is stuck on voting R. Regret we couldn’t have talked longer.
I am willing to debate any Clinton supporter on the merits of the reasons to vote for the Senator for president.
lahoma
Hugh @ 192
setting aside his remarks this evening, read him his MIRANDA rights:
Maybe It Really Ain’t No Democrat Anyway
Current CNN Quick Vote:
“Are you concerned that al Qaeda will try to strike the U.S. during the holiday shopping season?”
Yes – 24%
No – 76%
Have they maybe cried “wolf” a few times too many?
Professor Foland @ 215
Morally yes. A straight up and down vote may also allow some Democrats who would vote for Mukasey in a pinch to cast a cosmetic vote against.
Evening, pups. Who exists on this thread? Is Mr. Seder here? Jane? Pach? TSF?
I live in Dr. Pauls district and I also believe after he wins the primary he will pick a Democrat to be his running mate….
Over the years, and I watch him closely, he only has spoken highly of Democrats.
Three to be exact.
They also at one time or another have spoken highly of Paul.
1. Dennis Kucinich
2. Barney Frank
3. Bernie Sanders.
I would be very surprised if these people were left out of a Paul Cabinet and I think he would ask Dennis to jump party lines and join him, further alienating the remnants of the neoconservative wing of the republican party….
My thoughts, only.
Bernie is so cool…..He and Paul work tirelessly for civil rights and our constitution.
TELL THEM BERNIE!
:)
I’ve asked this several times around here when Ronald Paul voters are speaking up, and not one has ever answered this. They respond by talking more about the Fed Reserve, and nary one single word in response to what I asked.
If Ron’s so against government intrusion into people’s lives, why does he support the government forcing women who have been raped and impregnated, to grow those cells into babies and give birth against their wills? He’ll breath fire when talking about government and financial matters, but when it’s a woman’s body and life, he’s cool with government telling her what to do?
And what’s with his long history speaking at and getting support from “white power” groups?
Do you Ronald supporters just think these issues and contradictions are just minor points that can be overlooked?
Eureka Springs @ 208
His voting record puts him with DiFi and Biden,that said, he is 50 points higher than the three “best”
Republicans; Specter, snowe and Collins.
Hugh @ 209
Like the Cat in the Hat riding a unicycle on a beach ball while juggling objects including a cake and a fishbowl!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
Fortunately, M’dear, sitting Senators have an abysmal track record for getting elected Prez…:-)
dakine01 @ 220
I think people got the message from what happened with FISA in August that this Administration just lies. Period.
Hugh @ 209
Tribuki
CTuttle @ 227
That’s not all that encouraging, really…
LS, I wasnt assuming anything about you. :)
Oilfieldguy @ 222
All kinds of folks, OFG.
Where are you on this fine evening?
Fern @ 210
Not if we are put under marshall law, another thing I see coming.
Under disguise of our failed bankrupt economy.
DUHBYA is a history major from YALE he knows what he does, never underestimate him.
You have no idea what they did to Texas…
And y’all think we were f-ed up before?
Oilfieldguy @ 222
Just the usual suspects.
Loo Hoo. @ 226
What a great image!
bonkers @ 224
Exactomuno!
marymccurnin @ 229
Trikabuki
Eli @ 230
Heh, at least the glass is half full… :P
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
Two words:
President Rudy.
Debate that please.
marymccurnin @ 229
You guys are on a roll this evening. I think the Senate is trying to roll us as well, unfortunately.
marymccurnin @ 229
Mukabukasey
Peterr @ 236
Trikabukidookie.
rockyb @ 223
FWIW, although Bernie caucuses with the Dems, he ran for the Senate (and House previously) as an Independent after first gaining elective office as I believe Mayor of Burlington while running as a Soc*al*st.
Harkin quoting the Magna Carta
Hardin is citing the Magna Carta… 8-)
Oilfieldguy @ 238
Hugh @ 239
I feel as if I have been mugged in an alley – not just rolled.
Hugh @ 221
Do you have a link to the debate agreement? I can’t find one.
neurophius @ 243
I owe ya a Coke…!
neurophius @ 240
Okay, I’ll go there: Kabukkaki.
CTuttle @ 248
LOL
CTuttle @ 244
This is giving all of these folks the opportunity to do real “stem winder” speeches. Wish they’d decided to read up on this stuff before NOW.
marymccurnin @ 235
I think he fits into the category of “True Reactionary. His time was 1880’s to 1920’s. The age of “free capitalism and Social Darwinism.
Peterr @ 232
Not five miles from the spot I had coffee with Jane shortly after the passing of her mother. I shall always have a special affinity for Tulsa evermore.
smapdi @ 231
Oh, I realize that…no problem at all!!
bonkers @ 224
Go to this site and scroll down to where he comments on abortion…He realizes there are disagreements…He says the more difficult a problem, the more local a solution should be.
He knows there are things(legalities) we argue about, but he says they should be decided by state courts.
He also will fight for the right of a woman to cross state lines to have an abortion preformed.
He voted against a federal ban on abortion.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb…..10-12.html
He cqan not control what groups follow him….I hear John Edwards has some shady law firm and Hill has accepted bundled campaign contributions…..
Which are worse?
Toby Wollin @ 251
Heh, we’re doomed to repeat…!
If Ron’s so against government intrusion into people’s lives, why does he support the government forcing women who have been raped and impregnated, to grow those cells into babies and give birth against their wills? He’ll breath fire when talking about government and financial matters, but when it’s a woman’s body and life, he’s cool with government telling her what to do?
And what’s with his long history speaking at and getting support from “white power” groups?
Can you explain why this is relevant when he believes in a “weak Executive” and we’ll see a general Deocratic Congress win in the next election? For what it’s worth, I’m not voting for him in the general, only in the primary…as he’ll shatter the GOP for years to come if he becomes their candidate.
Oilfieldguy @ 253
More directly to your point, OFG, I don’t believe a host has appeared in a comment on this thread.
Professor Foland @ 247
It probably won’t be up in the Congressional Record for at least 24 hours. At the beginning of the debate they talked about 5 hours of debate split between the two sides followed by a vote.
Hmmm. @ 202
I don’t think so. Even though Tim Johnson’s back, McCain was in Michigan 4pm (local). The Senate has a quorum, but not all senators are present, IIRC.
I have already registered as a Republican for the upcoming primary so that I can vote for Ron Paul. As a Florida resident,voting in the Democratic primary made no sense – the DNC will not count my vote because the FL Dems moved their primary date up. So I totally agree with That American Chap @96.
Once the primary is over I’ll change my vote to the Dem candidate for the general election.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
Because it’s a twofer, and because she can win the general election. Bill has not yet begun to fight. Hillary is playing nice, but she will get the job done. She’s already asked the pentagon for plans to get the troops out of Iraq, and threw her weight around when they refused to give it to her. One tough cookie.
That American Chap @ 257
I agree that it would shatter ‘em, however, I want to rattle HRC’s cage in the Primary…! 8-)
Government’s role in abortion law
JUDY WOODRUFF: Abortion, you’ve said you’d like to make it impossible for the federal government to regulate abortion, which would, in effect, I guess, negate Roe v. Wade.
REP. RON PAUL: Yes, it would, because I think that’s a state issue.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And then the states would be able to do away with abortion.
REP. RON PAUL: That’s right.
JUDY WOODRUFF: I mean, in effect, would you like to see abortion banned everywhere? Or what’s your position on that?
REP. RON PAUL: I’d like to ban the federal government intervention in abortion. So since I’ve only been a federal official — a congressman and then running for the presidency — I say that we should keep our hands out of it.
And there are some extreme circumstances that I may not even endorse but I recognize that we’re always arguing about it. The states, they should deal with it, because they’re difficult. The more difficult an issue is, the more local the solution ought to be.
Once you get into a difficult problem, and then you have one monolithic answer, like Roe v. Wade, then you come up with a solution where the courts legislate and allow abortion to be done a minute before birth, and I can get paid for doing one of those, yet a girl, because she throws her baby away, we arrest her for murder. There’s something awfully inconsistent about that.
And I have so much legal responsibility as a physician, if I do harm to the fetus, I can be sued. So the fetus has legal rights, but we should figure that out at the state level on the extreme circumstances and not legalize abortion at any time during pregnancy, which is essentially what the Supreme Court did.
Harkin speech on Cspan2 — no more torture. Calling Bush a King.
I think I like Harkin’s speech the most of any I have heard tonight.
Steve-AR @ 252
Libertarians parallel progressive thought for a Iowa second (that is a long second) then the two philosophies diverge radically. Just because he is not the other rebugs does not make him doable.
Loo Hoo. @ 262
Lets talk voting record, positions and derivation of financial support. Not speculation please.
lahoma
OK kiddo,
Ah, yes. John Edwards is the canidate closer to the hearts and minds of all progressives. Should we swallow the CW of the Village bobbleheads that this fringe candidate cannot be considered serious?
How can this meme be defeated prior to the day of reckoning, enabling Mr. Edwards a serious chance. Is it his problem or ours?
Ann Regina @ 261
Check the news reports and I think you’ll find the Republicans are doing the same thing as the Dems are doing in refusing to seat delegates because BOTH primaries were moved up.
edit: from the AP via the WaPo0
neurophius @ 266
I don’t know, I thought both of Vermont’s were pretty forthright…
LIEperson is up
Lieberman’s up. Grab the barf bags.
I am not interested in Bill. I am interested in Hillary.
lahomaOilfieldguy @ 269
this is lahoma here pal.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 268
Well, she voted against cloture on the Alito nomination…(which was a vote against Alito that really counted, unlike those of, say, Joe Lieberman…)
Just one vote, but an important one, imo…
*gasp* HoJo for Mukasey…
itwasntme @ 272
And he too is speaking on the Republicans’ time.
CTuttle @ 276
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
CTuttle @ 271
I guess I missed Leahy’s. Which I regret.
Hugh @ 277
Is he, finally, reality is dawning…
Shorter Lieberman: Trust Mukasey. Which is of course a Government of Men argument.
HoJo can’t remember another time when the AG was more independent from the President
Hugh @ 277
That’s what his clock runs on…
Joseph Lieberman, a koolaid ravaged man.
Lieberman voted Brownie in too.
Loo Hoo
Actually this is a message directed at you. I don’t care about Bill a twit. He’s not running for prez.
lahoma
neurophius @ 266
I think he got too bogged down in Guantonimo – but he kept using the word KING, and that was fantastic.
Helen @ 282
Does he have Alzheimer’s or something?
This Ron Paul strategery of voting for him in the primary to somehow damage the train wreck that is the current Republican party, hoisted by their own petards, essentially, is just oh so Rovian.
Paul has the potential of resurrecting his party from the dead zone, if not as a presidential candidate, then in some other capacity. He is what the Reaganauts imagine they are.
Liarman comparing RFK unfavorably to Mukabukasey…
Helen @ 282
Cause the fucker is brain dead.
neurophius @ 279
I’m sure he’ll deliver the closing argument, he is the manager of the Dem’s time…
Eli @ 288
Prolly
Oklahoma kiddo @ 274
Um, okay, and I’m not your pal. I saw the lahoma tag, but missed the part where you were a sock-puppet. My bad.
LIEberman — the tortured logic, it burns.
Eli @ 288
Nope, just delusional.
I wonder whether Liarman has ever heard of a guy named Elliot Richardson.
CTuttle @ 276
Fellow classmates Yale Law ‘67. What on earth was the school teaching?!
Remember Lieberman’s famous whiny condemnation of Bill Clinton for a BJ? Now war, torture, a Presidential dictatorship, the rule of men not laws, he champions them all.
Ron Paul said he would cut the lucrative congressional retirement packages entirely and cut their pay in half from $140k to 70k.
FYI
They would all probably quit if that happened…
What a lovely day that would be.
I would give up all my favorites if they would all step down and be replaced.
JUDY WOODRUFF: You have declined to sign on, as I understand, for the federal pension that every member of Congress is entitled to. So my question is, you’re not worried about your later years? I mean, you could live many more years, Congressman Paul.
REP. RON PAUL: This is one position that I think my wife might disagree with me on. There goes our retirement. No, you know, I was in the Congress in the ’70s and ’80s, and I’ve been back, so I’ve had a good many years, close to 20 years. I’ve been in the military. So it would be a nice pension fund.
But when I started in Congress, the first time in ‘76, it was even then more lucrative than it is now, but it’s a very lucrative, very beneficial pension fund. And I could not see with me condemning, you know, the system to on the side quietly participate in getting some very good benefits. So I just said, “I’m not going to do it; I’ll have to take care of myself some other way.”
JUDY WOODRUFF: Should everybody else follow suit, do you think?
REP. RON PAUL: Well, NO, I DONT THINK WE SHOULD HAVE THESE TYPE OF PROGRAMS. (oops). I think citizens should be representing us in Congress and the work should be reduced. We should CUT THEIR PAY IN HALF and let them go home and work.
See, if I go home and practice medicine right now, the congressional rules say, “You can’t practice medicine.” I don’t want to take the lucrative pension fund, but ironically, if I wanted to work extra on the weekend, they won’t allow me, because they say it’s a conflict of interest for me to go home and deliver a baby. So figure that out.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And just quickly, I understand traveling around the country campaigning, you’ve run into people you’ve actually delivered.
REP. RON PAUL: Yeah, I think that’s so neat. Because the other night, we had a meeting up in New Hampshire. A young lady came up and she goes, “You delivered me.” And I said, “Do you want me to pick you up, since I held you for the first time?”
JUDY WOODRUFF: Is she voting for you? Or do you know?
REP. RON PAUL: Oh, yes, she was a strong supporter.
JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, Congressman Ron Paul, thank you very much for being with us.
REP. RON PAUL: Thank you.
Eureka Springs @ 298
Were they serving Ivy League Kool Aid?
Ole Mitch is up now… Hmmm… has he read the tea leaves on his re-election chances…
Oh fuck.. McConnell up. What fun this will be.
McConnell apparently has taken his hand out of his sockpuppet Harry Reid’s backside long enough to slam the Democrats for not caving sooner.
OMG; McConnell is saying that Clinton did it!!
“Reno was not asked any more questions…”
Oilfieldguy @ 294
Anytime you pass through Lawton, you are welcome to visit kiddo and I. Just let us know.
I’ll go on the record. Torture is never right.
Shorter McConnell: Waterboarding? Never heard of it. More Dem confirmation political fuckery!
Oilfieldguy @ 307
This is a daring and controversial stand… now.
Hugh @ 299
Cause his wife says “Don’t touch me with that little thing”. He is jealous of Bill’s bj.
Oilfieldguy @ 307
Around here that’s a broken record. Certainly a golden oldie.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 306
Heh, I’ve been to Lawton, I’ve patronized the ‘Strip’ malls outside the main gates of Ft. Sill… *g*
Oilfieldguy @ 307
Amen.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 268
Voting Record.
Please read Jeff Dinelli and Eriposte at the Left Coaster.
Fellow classmates Yale Law ‘67. What on earth was the school teaching?!
That is one creepy link.
McConnell should prolly stop talking about “our friends in NY.” See LHP’s earlier post
The feds are not so much worried about us in NY.
Oilfieldguy – if Lahoma was the signon, but you were talking to OKK, then he/she would be a sockpuppet.
rockyb @ 315
That is one terrifying headline.
Dershowitz for AG? He’s so high.
Leahy, is going off…!!!
Thanks Loo Hoo, sometimes it just wears me out.
Harry up? Yielding back? WTF??
Eli @ 318
And you say your just a blogger.
Leahy: STFU Mitch, you lie!
rockyb @ 315
They were teaching the code of the Bohemian Club. Torture. S and M. Whatever you want to call it. They like it.
‘Civics 101′, Rock on, Leahy, Rock on…
Leahy is laying down the law.
Eureka Springs @ 323
Shouldn’t I be, like, getting a call or something? I haven’t even updated my resume.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 286
No, but he would be in a fantastic position to give advise, lahoma. And the rest of the world would perk up and say, shit another Clinton? Great news! No other candidate has the ability to get the rest of the world onboard with us again. Key.
marymccurnin @ 325
Friendly edit ;-)
neurophius @ 327
Or Leahying it down, as the case may be.
rockyb: Thanks for the link. I’ve been hoping someone could answer that. I have a much clearer idea as to why I won’t support him now: I actually think Federal government in theory can do a lot of good.
From your link: REP. RON PAUL: So we should have no laws; Congress shall write no laws. So local people should be able to do what they want.
This talk about local control is very scary to me, and I assume this is why the various separatist groups are goin gah-gah over Ron. I don’t see how this is good for America, since won’t it splinter America up into all kinds of radical groups. There’d be a bunch of Utahs, and David Koresh towns, and inevitably, one local group would get pissed at another, and then another, ad nauseum. Seems to me this would make America weaker and weaker, and I’m certainly not a Constitutional scholar, but I don’t see how extreme States’ Rights follows the Constitution.
I’ve spent time in India and other similar countries, and a bunch of local control and chaos is not good. Again, as long as the principles are preserved and followed and not subverted by the mega-rich, which has/is happening, the Constitution is a great way to organize millions of people. I’d like to restore these principles, and not throw it out the window for localized control of everything.
Of course, having not spent much time reading or listening to Ron, I might be missing something, but this is my reaction to what I’ve seen so far. Gotta run, but if there’s something I’m missing, please elaborate as I’ll check back later.
Reid is voting against the Mukabukasey nomination, but I don’t get the sense that he has done everything he could have done to defeat it.
Steve-AR @ 321
THANK YOU!!
Reid doing his best imitation of a mealymouthed politician. It is really very convincing considering how he sold the process out with his consent agreement.
neurophius @ 333
The sense I usually get is that he tells his members something like, “Well, I’m going to vote against it/him, maybe, but you go ahead and do whatever feels right.”
Reid up now. Voting against, at least that’s something.
Eli @ 336
Then they all hold hands and sing “Kumbayah”
LS @ 20
because nowhere is safe?
neurophius @ 333
That’s only because you’ve been paying attention.
Loo Hoo. @ 314
I have seen that. I am talking Iraq war vote and Kyle-Lieberman. And then we can move on to big pharma money, DLC, Rahm, Harold Ford Jr., Nafta, Lamont, defense industry support, ‘bombing Iran is not off the table’, refusal to debate Tasini, the peace candidate opposition candidate in the last Senatorial election in NY. And more.
lahoma
Eli @ 336
And that,therein is the problem. The reason the pepugs have been so effective is that they have toed the party line.
bonkers @ 332
Very well said.
bonkers @ 332
City States!
Peterr @ 340
There’s certainly no fire in his speech against the nomination, he’s just kind of walking through it…
There’s already horrifying widespread ignorance in the country. Imagine what it would be like with absolutely no organized educational system.
M. @ 346
Permanent Republican majority!
Also, fast track to third-world status.
thank god Kos put as much energy as he did into ridiculing Kuchinich or we might have a ‘paint the town Dennis’ movement on the Democratic side….
and that just would.not.do.
But I repeat myself.
Eli @ 336
If he whined more, you wouldn’t be able to tell him apart from Joseph Lieberman.
He is giving compelling reasons to oppose Mukasey at all costs. He says he will vote against him but he failed to whip up Democrats against the nomination and structured the vote to ensure that the Mukasey nomination will succeed.
Loo Hoo. @ 344
City States!
As long as I can live in SF or NYC.
Where’s Clinton or Obama? No speeches?
OH GOD Reid is talking about letters!!!!!!!! STOP IT.
“He is giving compelling reasons to oppose Mukasey at all costs. He says he will vote against him but he failed to whip up Democrats against the nomination and structured the vote to ensure that the Mukasey nomination will succeed.”
Does that qualify as betraying his party?
Loo Hoo. @ 329
I don’t want ‘two for one’ this time anymore than I wanted it the two times I voted for Bill Clinton. I don’t want anymore NAFTA and “Third Way” business. Among other things.
lahoma
Loo Hoo. @ 329
please more clintons and bushes.
Loo Hoo – I have to blame you for my missing most of this thread. You had me running off looking for my (50 year old) copy of “If I ran the Circus”, since I thought that had the better reference. Something like:
I’ll just cut down those dead trees
And haul off those old cars
Only take me an hour or two
(but I particularly love the “dingus contraption attached to his pipe”).
Hugh @ 350
Reid is Washington General through and through.
Eli @ 349
Please expand.
musicsleuth @ 352
As long as they vote nay, I’m happy…
musicsleuth @ 352
I think even Dodd just asked that his remarks be made part of the record and did not speak.
I really hate to say this, but Ron is looking better all the time. As a true blue, I would vote for a Dem first, because they share my values. But Ron is now more appealing than some of the Dem contenders. I know Ron is a bit of a nut, but he is honest and up front about it. And he is definitely a believer in the Constitution first. This puts him ahead of Obama & Hil, but behind the rest of the Dem pack. If his roots thing catches, he may be a third party contender, and if he sticks with his message he will get votes from blues and reds.
Hugh @ 361
the Zen candidate!!!
GordonM @ 359
Permanent Republican majority and fast-track to third-world status are pretty much the same thing. And that’s what we’ll have without a decent educational system.
GordonM @ 356
LOL
My opinion is there are better and much more principled Progressive Democrats available than Bill and Hillary Clinton.
lahoma.
And we’re voting
Oklahoma kiddo @ 366
Like all of the other Democratic candidates minus Biden, of course.
bonkers @ 332
I understand your concerns…I am pro choice myself…But there is another issue to me which trumps everything else.
Actually two.
Right now, Roe v Wade is not protected as written.
If we want a national law like Roe v Wade we must follow our law and make an amendment to the constitution. Otherwise we must put this back to the states Jurisdiction. RIGHT NOW IT IS UNPROTECTED, because what the Federal government can grant they can also take away. But not if there is a constitutional amendment granting this law.
Further, and my most important issue with current law.
I feel very deeply that it is governments job to protect the minorities. In this case the Christian Right.
I would feel the same way if they wanted to out law gay marriage..(something else Ron Paul is against.)
I feel that millions of Americans have been silenced by this law and it will never be debated again.
I think by having Roe v Wade it silences the minority and gives the Supreme Court a chance to rule on an issue I believe should be left to the state.
I find it very strange Dr. Paul has said he will fight for the right of the woman to cross state lines to have an abortion, and does not promote a federal ban(the reason the Christian right wont support him)
He will also keep the fed out of regulating marriage and will give it to the states and he has also said a Paul administration will recognize gay marriage and any marriage as long as the corresponding state allows it.
He will also fight for the state to outlaw these things.
They’re voting?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 366
Yes, but based on your original comment, I thought we were talking general election…
The Vote is NOW!
Show Time!!!
GordonM @ 356
HA!
This is headed for EPU land but I just don’t get the whole Ron Paul facination. Where does he figure the money would come from for infrastructure; roads, bridges, etc? Does he want to get rid of state income taxes as well? Government is nessisary for some things, and those things have to be paid for somehow.
azureblue @ 362
Be very careful with this one. He’s got close ties with white supremacist groups, including the minute men who want to patrol the borders and shoot people crossing for sport. You can check Orcinus for further details.
But I must say, he’s also the only Republican candidate I see posters and such for in my area (Orange County California). It is utterly mystifying.
Eli @ 364
What? You don’t want to sit on the porch sipping sloe-gin while the less worthy chop cotton? All that book-larnin’ has warped your mind!
TRex upstairs
General comment about libertarians. I’ve really enjoyed reading the better libertarian commentators regarding constitutional freedoms and foreign policy. In particular, they’ve been much readier to take an even-handed position on the Israel/Palestine issue than have most progressives.
But, I’m a new-deal liberal, and Paul Krugman’s my hero. I really like Justin Raimondo and Lew Rockwell when they talk about foreign policy and the constitution. But, at some point we’ve got to join the civilized world, the rest of the industrialized world who realize that FDR got it, and Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan were dupes of the plutocrats and oligarchs.
GordonM @ 377
One of the reasons I can never be a Republican is that I’m not entirely convinced I wouldn’t be one of the ones chopping cotton…
Hey, which town in Columbia, Sam? Where I am, over toward the Berkshires, things trended seriously Democratic on Tuesday, though the competent guy, originally a Republican, cross-endorsed last time by R’s and D’s, then dumped by both this time, ran as a conservative and on a small local party and won anyway. Local politics trumped everything, and I haven’t seen any sign of next year’s election, not Paul nor anybody. Now, my guess is that a sizable portion of the Republicans who deserted their former candidate because he and the town exercised eminent domain to build a much-needed sewer system are Paulites, because they are dumber than rocks.
I say the last from some experience. I’ve represented people who thought there was no law requiring them to pay income tax and they went to jail. Dumber than rocks.
Feinstein-aye. Worthless traitor. DINO bitch.
Eli @ 380
Oh no. It’s because you refuse to believe that if you only chop cotton and cause no trouble, soon you’ll have a house with a porch all of your own. So grab that machete and lift… chop… lift.. chop… (pay no attention to the growing pain in your shoulder… apply directly where it hurts)… lift… chop…
I mentioned earlier I live in Galveston….I have watched Ron Paul for years…
He does not vote with me on every issue but we trust him. Although he says one should NEVER trust government, we trust him..
There is one video I found and I think it says the truth about Ron.
I would hope you watch it….It might help you understand some things that are going on right now.
:)
http://video.google.com/videop…..&q=ron paul brushfires&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5
David in NY @ 381
A rock has no IQ status therefore can not be smart or dumb.
Astral Technician @ 16
oh boy, is that ever the truth …..
Recently, in San Francisco, there was the (Hardly Strictly) Bluegrass festival and the only representation I saw of any candidate was the contingent supporting Ron Paul. They were present, but discrete, and sometimes that’s a big sell.
Personally, I am suspicious of any “libertarian.” But he’s unapologetic about being against the war and I have a grudging respect for that.
Twain @ 53
The PawPaw Patch Party?
Why the War and Energy are THE most important issues…
What could we do with 2.4 trillion dollars?
*We could manufacture 9.6 BILLION bicycles (assuming a cost of $250 per bicycle). That’s more than a bicycle for every person on the face of the earth.
*We could manufacture 4.8 BILLION laptop computers (assuming a cost of $500 per laptop computer). That’s more than a laptop for every literate person on the face of the Earth. Want to foster security for our country? Give every single person in the world a laptop computer (you could even use those models that have the hand-powered crank for charging in the wilderness). Those will be some appreciative individuals.
*We could install 640 gigawatts of clean, reliable solar thermal power generating capacity, which would amount to about 1/6th of the entire electricity consumption in the U.S. If all of this was used to replace coal powered plants, we could cut our use of coal by 40%. That would single-handedly decrease global CO2 emissions by 7%.
*We could put 30 comprehensive rapid transit rail systems in the 30 largest cities in the U.S. (those that don’t already have such systems), and connect them all together with a speedy long-distance passenger rail network (assuming $80 billion per rail network including regional links).
*We could just give (back) $8000 to every American citizen, or $360 to every human on the face of the Earth (which is more than many people earn in an entire year).
For more calculations, visit costofwar.com .
rwcole @ 69
Well he’s apparently said that he supports TOTAL PRIVATIZATION as a long-term solution for younger workers and a lock-box for older workers. At least that’s what I THINK he’s suggesting.
Ron Paul on Lew Rockwell
Allow young people to get out of the system
Q: What do you think of Social Security?
A: It’s a mess. And it proves that the government is not very good at central economic planning, even for retirement. The money was taken from the people with good intention. We should do our best to return it to those that have taken it. But we need to allow the young people to just flat out get out of the system. Because, if you have the government managing these accounts, it’s not going to work.
Source: 2007 GOP primary debate in Orlando, Florida Oct 21, 2007
Personal retirement accounts allow investing in one’s future
Q: Would you revive Pres. Bush’s attempt to introduce personal retirement accounts as a way to reform Social Security, thus allowing all Americans, particularly low-wage workers & the self-employed, an investment in their future & ownership in the inheritance they pass on?
HUCKABEE: Yes. TANCREDO: Yes. COX: Yes. BROWNBACK: Yes.
PAUL: Yes. HUNTER: Yes. KEYES: Yes.
Source: [Xref Huckabee] 2007 GOP “Values Voter ” Presidential Debate Sep 17, 2007
Federal government won’t keep its entitlement promises
When it comes to Social Security and Medicare, the federal government simply won’t be able to keep its promises in the future… Our entitlement system can’t be reformed–it’s too late. …We must rethink the very role of government in our society. Anything less, any tinkering or “reform,” won’t cut it.
Source: Weekly column, “Texas Straight Talk” Mar 5, 2007
Rated 30% by the ARA, indicating an anti-senior voting record.
Here’s another article in which he gives the “lockbox”/”privatization for younger workers” solution.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul215.html
The difference between Paul’s idea and Bush’s is that he would simply allow workers to place money into the stock market on their own…rather than be placed in government-selected funds managed by the Big Five Financial Houses. This would provide true mobility.
But only those older workers would be protected by the lock-box…and there isn’tthe guarantee that he would support increased taxes to preserve their benefits. By “lock-box” he might really mean a LOCKED BOX!
Toby Wollin @ 87
That will be Schumer’s campaign slogan
“I’m the best you’ll get…the other guys worse – Schumer 2010″
Loo Hoo. @ 150
There’s a reason Ron Paul is sometimes called “Dr. No”…almost anything that requires actual Federal Money he will NOT vote for. Much of what “progressives” might view as being a “progressive” vote is simply because he opposes providing funding for Federal activities.
In addition he votes “No” on some issues that most libertarians find odd…particularly individual access to birth control and contraception.
I think one will find far more informative wht he votes YES on…rather than no. It shows where he is willing to actually spend mney or apply some sort of support that veers away from a libertarian ideology.
But since the WH is supposed to present budgets I wonder what Paul would submit to Congress in regards to Education, Health Care, National Parks, etc.? Would it compel Congress to undertake efforts to create budgets on their own, having to make it perpetually “veto-proof”? Imagine if Paul could get 33% support in either House and block ANY spending bills.
dakine01 @ 213
What if he simply refused to appoint the “officers” of the Departments necessary to administer these programs?
Eli @ 230
And neither do “former Senators”.
I am not sure which group qualify as paranoid wing-nuts, the Ron Paul supporter or the Sky is falling alarmist who think that Ron Paul is the harbinger of the end of civilization.
The Federal Government is too big and costly. No one has any idea what is going on most of the time. Bill are passed without being read.
There is a need for some action by the federal government but a one term Paul would not be all that bad for the country. He is my congressman and not a bad guy.
rockyb @ 300
One can’t argue that Congress will restrain him from some actons, while saying that they will give him carte blanche on others. Paul, as President, would have absolutely no power to cut Congressional Pensions and Pay Scales. He could veto, but such a Bil would be easily overridden.
Where he could impact things is by basically appointing people with his ideology to Departments that would simply allow them to “wither on the vine”. He things that many Departments…like Education…shouldn’t exist. He could simply fail to appoint people to that Department.
He could basically tell the States to deal with issues…and yet provide no substitute funding to compensate for theit increased burdens.
He could appoint people to the bench with his philosophy (is this the “Federalist Society” judges)
He could gum up the whole budgeting process by not submitting a budget for various Departments, requiring Congress to work independently in developing the Budget. Yet he could either direct his Departmental Head not to cooperate, or simply have no appointment to that area at all.
Sam,
I live in Columbia County, NY and can confirm that the Ron Paul movement is alive and well hereabouts. Signs are posted all over the place. I’m not sure the Paulites are fully informed about their hero and some of his loonier positions, but like you, I wish them well in their endeavor to fuck up the Republican party.
BTW, we are a formerly solid GOP district that is turning purple, and the demographics are turning in our favor. We’re gaining on the bastards.
Ron Paul is the Ron Reagan of our century…
Eat your hearts out Libs!
Hi Folks! I hope everyone is doing well today. I just wanted to jump in here to reiterate that changing screen names and sockpuppeting is frowned on here at Firedoglake.com. It can be grounds for banning. Thanks!
Fern @ 28
Well, Social Security and Medicare and completely Federal responsibilities. Medicaid is a joint Federal-State program. Schools, fire/police are state/local responsibilities. But if you don’t have social insurance at a federal level how the heck can states and local govts provide the level of education and public safety that they currently do? They can’t.
I remind my sister who always grumbles about her FICA payroll deductions that if we didn’t have Social Security and Medicare our parents would’ve had to take care of their parents in their old age which would have meant no college for us. And when I was growing up there weren’t things like paramedics. My mom reminds me that when she needed to go to the hospital she had to have a neighbor take her. And we lived in a solidly middle class suburban community.
The modern Republican Party needs dismantled and rebuilt, same goes for the Democratic Party. Access to easy money and petty partisan pugilism ruined them both. There is no honor in what either party stands for these days. Despite the bickering between party leaders, the line between them is very blurry. There needs to be a lot more Ron Paul Republicans and a lot more Dennis Kucinich Democrats. We’d be in a lot better shape. Instead we have Bush Republicans and Clinton Democrats. Both suck.
cinnamonape @ 396
Something to keep in mind, since you are talking in terms of President Ron Paul, is that if he were elected then that would mean a significant shift in the way the people want government to run their lives. Congress is a direct representative of the people and would be forced to act on the new ideology of the people. I think he’d be able to get more done than people give him credit for. He gets people fired up and since we would not live in a police state under Ron Paul then people would hit the streets and Interwebs and force Congress to listen. We’d have a president that’d encourage peaceful protest, not try to squash it.
Wow, a mention of Austin’s own Alex Jones! While Jones is, no doubt, salivating over the idea of a Paul presidency, and, he is, in fact, totally paranoid, if anyone has a chance to see his access cable TV shows, they should take go for it. One thing Jones does extremely well is showing corporate media mentions of government chicanery. He is perplexed that, say, the NYTimes will print a story on page A33 on August 30th, and then drop it. There is absolutely no follow-up to a story that should be important to all of us.
And I agree with you that a President Ron Paul would be the end of the Republican Party as we know it.
Ron Paul is the Ron Reagan of our century…
Eat your hearts out Libs!
What?? Puhl-eeazze! Paul is a *very* bright guy with a lot of integrity, don’t lump him in with Ronnie-boy!
Anyway, as this thread is nearly dead, one more time- libs, do the unthinkable and vote for Paul in your state’s primary (you may have to temporarily register as a-shudder- Republican) in an attempt to manuever him into the slot of GOP candidate. He’ll both shatter the GOP and force our candidate to change her line and become antiwar and pro-Constitution! Good things, those.
bonkers @224
And what’s with his long history speaking at and getting support from “white power” groups?
Do you Ronald supporters just think these issues and contradictions are just minor points that can be overlooked?
the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any case arising out of any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, practice, or any part thereof, or arising out of any act interpreting, applying, enforcing, or effecting any statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, or practice, on the grounds that such statute, ordinance, rule, regulation, practice, act, or part thereof–
`(1) protects the rights of human persons between conception and birth; or
`(2) prohibits, limits, or regulates–
`(A) the performance of abortions; or
`(B) the provision of public expense of funds, facilities, personnel, or other assistance for the performance of abortions.’.
This law would allow States to regulate abortions without the Federal courts jurisdiction. Regulate in law means to have laws regarding the application of – which does not preclude States from ‘regulating’ abortion for cases of incest, rape, or choice. This law does not require States to ban abortion. It allows States who choose to, through their constituent voters, to opt out of Roe v. Wade without Federal intervention.
White power groups are particularly sensitive to Federal Laws like the RICO Act, and the Civil Rights Act (1964), which circumvents the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution in favor of the Interstate Commerce Clause. They are therefore in favor of increasing multi-culturalism and decreasing integration. A stronger Federalist Government would allow them to segregate themselves easier.
I don’t think they are minor points. They go to the crux of the issue. If the Federal government can override State Constitutions, then why have States at all. The point of Federalism is to have a weak Federal government that loosely binds, States which then compete for taxpayers through the implementation of freedom and liberty. If the Federal government is to strong, then we are all forced to subsidize things we find abhorrent, like the war on drugs, the department of education, the CIA, abortion, or oil and banking interests.
I would rather de-claw this Federal government. And none of the viable Democrats seem willing or able.