NOTE for our NYC-area readers: Today, at 2:00 p.m., there will be a press conference in opposition to the DoJ’s motion. It will be on the steps of City Hall, called by the Chairman of the City Council’s Governmental Operations committee, Simcha Felder. Come on down and be part of the support crowd; we need all the turnout we can get. Directions to the rally and reasons for it below. Read on…
____________________
This may be a little complicated and hard to follow, so you might want to get a cup of coffee or a RedBull or something to help you concentrate.
Remember HAVA? The totally misnamed, designed to do the opposite, “Help America to Vote Act”? It was passed in the wake of the 2000 hanging chad scandal. It appeared to have some laudable goals, such as forcing the states to make the voting experience handicapped accessible, and provided money to the states to “update” their voting systems to comply with its requirements. Coming from the Administartion that LUVS unfunded mandates, it sounds almost too good to be true, doesn’t it?
And by now you know why. It was yet another con, a really dangerous con if you believe in voting.
HAVA had a ridiculously and arbitrarily short time frame for purchasing the new machines. States who didn’t buy in time, would still have to comply with the Upgrade requirements, but would lose out on the federal funding. Predictably, elections officials rushed out to buy untested and uncertified DRE’s (electronic voting systems), most of which did not provide auditable voter verified paper trails. These state officials were assured that they could buy now with confidence and the devices would pass the certification tests with flying colors, after the fact.
You all have left link after link in the comments about this county in Florida or that state in the west which decided to scrap almost brand new voting machinery BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK and will now have to purchase another system at the expense of the taxpayers of that state.
Those are the brave elections officials who are willing to step up and admit they got scammed. This is the electoral equivalent of the formaldehyde steeped FEMA trailers that could not be used after Katrina. This is a gigantic procurement fraud sitting right under our noses and nobody is reporting it.
Wait, it gets worse.
For a long time, New York State has been the gold standard in how election day is run (I won’t get into our crazy ballot access rules—you can ask John McCain about them), but the actual conduct of the election itself—New York does better than anybody. So, the way that NYS implements HAVA will be the ceiling, not the floor, for how elections will be conducted in the other 49 states.
The New York State Board of Elections (NYSBOE) takes this whole voting thing VERY SERIOUSLY. So, when HAVA was passed they took the time to ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE STATUTE. I know, I know, that’s kinda radical and fringy these days when so many of our elected officials feel free to vote for legislation that they don’t bother to read, but I digress.
New York State went to the trouble of passing its own HAVA implementation legislation which spelled out testing and certification standards including a voter verified paper trail. Thereafter, months were spent drafting and approving agency rules and procedures. A tremendous amount of thoughtful work went into this and thousands of attorney hours.
As you might imagine, NYS could not possibly complete all this due diligence before the expiration of the arbitrary and inadaquate HAVA deadline for the purchase of new machines.
In March 2006, DOJ sued NYS in federal court to compel the state to comply with the HAVA deadlines. At the time, no one yet had any reason to suspect that the DOJ Civil Rights Division had been taken over by hacks and corrupted by the like of Brad Schlozman, Hans von Spakovsky and John Tanner. NYS erroneously believed it to be a regular lawsuit brought in good faith because NY had missed the deadline.
Accordingly, NY State’s defense centered around explaining to the court the reason WHY the deadline had been missed and showing that the NYSBOE had been diligently and actively working through the process with all due speed. And the judge seemed to be getting it.
However, as the revelations about the warping of the civil rights division from an entity that promoted fair elections to an entity used to facilitate Karl Rove’s dirty tricks regime began to emerge, concerns began to form that maybe the DOJ had NOT brought this suit in good faith.
On Tuesday, November 6th—Election Day all over New York State—those concerns solidified and were borne out.
DOJ chose that day to serve a motion seeking to take away NY State’s right to select and acquire its own voting machine system. I shit you not, DOJ wants to take away my state’s right to control its own election process. And you thought the GOP supported state’s rights?
I’m not kidding. Here’s an except from DOJ’s Notice of Motion:
The United States will move this Court, before the Honorable Gary l. Sharp at the United States District Court for the Northern District of New York, 455 Broadway, Albany, New York 12207, on December 6, 2007 at 9:00 a.m., or at such other time as the court may direct, Pursuant to the court’s equitable authority to enforce its own lawful orders and Section 401 of HAVA, 42 U.S.C. 15511, for an Order:
1) Finding the defendants in violation of the June 6, 2006 Remedial Order entered in this action and in continuing violation of section 301 of HAVA, 43 U.S.C. 15301;
2) Enjoining defendants to take immediate and specific steps to carry out their extant obligations under that Order and under HAVA;
3) Granting such additional and further relief as this court deems proper and just.
In case you think I’m misconstruing the Notice of Motion, let me give you a tidbit from the accompanying Memo of Law:
In the absence of evidence of the demonstrated ability and willingness of the SBOE itself to make immediate progress towards these goals as reflected in new and/or existing Court mandates, The Court may have to consider taking compliance out of the hands of the State and placing it in the hands of the Court or others appointed by the Court to achieve compliance with federal law.
Today, at 2:00 p.m., there will be a press conference in opposition to the DoJ. It will be on the steps of City Hall, called by the Chairman of the City Council’s Governmental Operations committee, Simcha Felder. Come on down and be part of the support crowd; we need all the turnout we can get.
Take the 4, 5, or 6 train to Brooklyn Bridge, the R or W train to City Hall, or the 2 or 3 train to Park Place.
(Photo via ShutterCat7.)
Related posts:
- House Voting Now On The Rule For Health Care Debate
- Are Blue Dogs Just “Voting Their Districts” — Or Their Donors?
- Will PhRMA’s Fax Machines in the Senate Continue Eshoo’s Work?
- Vote Fraud in Clay County Should be Considered in Hanging of Census Worker
- Public Voting is Now Open for the POP “Public Choice” Art Prize





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LHP!
Justice!
Thank you for helping us understand this critical issue, Loosehead.
state rights anyone?? oh yeah, repubs are the party of corporate rights!
Crimeny!!!
Signs on freeways, people… signs on freeways…
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..posts.html
more fun than voting.
Hi LHP,
I knew a new post was a-comin’…now to read.
They will go to any lengths to mess with fair voting. Don’t forget, 9/11 occurred on election day in NYC…just a little trivia.
I’m just realizing that I have not been getting any e-mails from PFAW or the ACLU since I moved to PA. Move-On e-mails disappeared too until I signed up again. I moved my alias over from Comcast to Verizon but that is just re-routing an alias—should have no effect on getting stuff, unless . . . . .
Are the ACLU and PFAW sitting these out or is Verizon f*cking with my e-mail?
I hope there is a money back guarantee…
LHP, please forgive the OT but the Senate has joined the House in overriding the President’s veto of the Water Bill.
Ah…This brings back the old days. I used to live in Park Slope and worked in Midtown Manhattan, near Grand Central.
say it, lhp!
I cannot tell you how unbelievable this is. Every level of gov’t is up in arms. I wonder, however, if this story will even be reported at all.
The federal government is STRIPPING the state of its right to control how it conducts its own elections.
And not just any state, mind you. Noooo, it’s the state with the second biggest number of electoral college votes and which has been reliably blue for GENERATIONS.
Oh, and which Joe Sandler at the DNC has been predicting for a good year now, will be THE battleground state in 2008.
Yep, line up here folks, get your good look at the 2008 election being stolen before the machines have even cooled down from the 2007 election!!
RevDeb @ 8
Check your spam folder and/or check to see if Verizon is blocking them as spam that doesn’t even get to the Spam folder. If the second, you may have to go and tell Verizon that emails from those groups are not Spam. Don’t know the specifics of Verizon’s system butI know some of the ISPs have to be told that certain emails are legit.
This is slightly o/t, slightly relevant.
I talked with a young election volunteer this week and was shocked to learn that every hour, a volunteer updates the list outside the precincts to let people know who voted. The list displays names, addresses, phone numbers, political party, and if the person voted yet. Literally outside flying in the breeze. It is posted outside so reporters (and anyone else) can look at it.
This is in SF. Is this done everywhere?
The lengths to which these hooligans go have ceased to surprise me. How anyone can continue to take their actions at face value is beyond me…
do-si-do @ 9
OK that’s a lot o’ snark *g*
do-si-do @ 15
Not in NY, though a reporter or a person with a poll watcher’s certificate can look at the voter sign in book to see who has voted yet
In Bush v Gore, didn’t they take Florida’s
voting rights away?
Off with their fucking heads.
The 2008 election will be wrought with
Repug voter fraud…
Who is New York State to contest the Republicans’ G*d given right to fix elections?
looseheadprop @ 17
haha! Remember the movie “Breaking Away” with the kid who cycles and pretends to be Italian? His dad is a used car salesman who has a heart attack when his kid offers a customer a refund.
“Refund? Refund!”
dakine01 @ 14
I periodically check both my computer’s spam folder and Verizon’s. Nothing was to be found.
So the question is, where have the ACLU and PFAW been on these issues. Have you all been hearing from them?
looseheadprop @ 18
Yes. See who has voted yet, but not how they have voted. I thought they were supposed to be secret ballots. Otherwise, why bother with the privacy screens.
Good Lord.
That is going to be ugly. This is one huge reason to get these Republicans far away from the levers of power, they can be counted on to twist power and the rule of law to fit their needs to thwart fair elections.
ROOOOOOOOOOOVE!
That boy needs to be in jail.
looseheadprop @ 18
OK, I guess that’s about the same thing. It just seemed so invasive and public to me to have my political party on display. My paranoia stems from my recent “defection/recovery” from the fascist party into the Reality party. I never vote party lines, but still…
Hugh @ 20
We spent literally thousands of hours writing detailed regulations (down to specifying how durable the paper and ink have to be on the Voter verified paper trail) to get this done right.
NYS really has crafted an amazingly good set of rules. The vendors are in an uproar. I may do a later post with another quote from the brief that essentially says that the reason for the motion is that the vendors lobbying attempts failed, so what they could not get from the NYS BOE or the NYS Legislature by cajoling or bribrey, they are now trying to get from the judge
EPUed:
If you would like a high resolution image of the shredded constitution to print out and fax please go to this link:
abused constitution
looseheadprop @ 13
Don’t forget, it is also the state that the Democratic front-runner for President currently represents in the Senate.
RevDeb @ 22
I’ve gotten a couple of emails from PFAW yesterday and day before and ACLU on Tuesday as well. Can I get your email addy and forward them to you?
I wonder, can NYS countersue on grounds of bad faith?
It would seem to be an easy enough charge to prove.
RevDeb
I’ve been hearing from PFAW, but it isn’t going through a telecom e-mail provider (Earthlink and USA.net).
I’m not usually one to look at the bright side, but going to these lengths to steal the NY vote indicates that at least they still believe they need to have elections. They aren’t going to declare martial law by next November. Of course, I suppose it’s worse in the long run if we still have elections but no one believes they are valid anymore. I guess that’s worse than martial law–so there is no bright side after all. I wish I were in NYC to come to City Hall today.
Bustednuckles @ 24
First they try to change (the state with the most electoral votes) California’s all or nothing electoral vote designation. Now they are going after the #2 state. NYS always goes blue.
This is why Rudy is attractive to the GOP as a nominee.
dakine01 @ 29
my screen name at mac dot com.
Thanks.
Odd how I get all sorts of junk but nothing from the orgs. trying to support the rule of law.
Funny, huh?
JF @ 28
Most folks I know are bracing themsleves for a “subway series” Presidential election.
This has been my worst fear. I crowed about this in 2004, because discover magazine had an article on hacking into voter machines. I crowed about it in 2006 when HBO had it’s special and showed us right on t.v how easy it was for hackers to hack in and change votes on different machines…and did it without leaving a trace. Also having a paper trail was not effective because the paper said the vote picked by the voter, but the machine tallied the opposing vote…no kidding here!! But I feel that no one has taken this seriously.
For me, this is the essence, the foundation of democracy. If we lose secure elections, then we have lost our democracy…and my humble opinion as well as the opinion of some scholars is that we have not had secure elections and voting since 2000. That’s right, there is some evidence that the 2000 election was tampered with where there were voting machines and we all know about the other methods that were used to discourage voting.
This cannot be tolerated…I remember getting criticized likely crazy for suggesting that our voting system was tampered with, and that the machines had been hacked. I cited the discover magazine article many times before, but I don’t know it does any good. The writers predicted what happened in 2004, you can still read the article today..but I am tired of posting it. Do people care??
This is more important than the war, than global warming and even torture…and I feel really strongly about all of them, but to me, this explains why we have all felt so powerless, why our democratic congress doesn’t act. They feel insecure, they don’t understand that there is a disconnect between the voting results and the american people. Voting has been a sham since the year 2000 at least.
I’ll post a link to the discover magazine article of 2004, if any one cares…it predicts exactly what happened to Kerry. We bought it because it was a “close” race, and because we saw Kerry as ‘weak’. It’s all about creating enough spin and then manipulating the votes. It will keep happening as long as it works and as long as people are in denial about it.
This is also why republicans want Clinton to win. They believe it will be easy to spin a “close” race and that the american people will buy. As I have seen touted before on this very site…we must not propagate the republican sound bite that Hillary is unelectable or unpopular because it makes it so much easier for them to cheat. NO KIDDING. Then when the votes are tallied and she has lost, the american public will shrug and say “well she was a weak candidate anyway…just like we all did with John Kerry.”
OT..
You mean the 11,000 formaldehyde soaked trailers sinking in the mud at the Hope, Arkansas airport? Well all is not lost, FEMA is starting to send some to So. Cal for the fire victims.
dakine01 @ 10
Hope the Rethugs learn to love the feeling of overriding and not getting struck by lightening.
RevDeb @ 34
On the way – the graphics won’t come through I don’t think but the basic info should be OK
Bustednuckles @ 30
It would involve a major shift in tactics by the State AG’s office who is defending the suit.
The case began when (now Governor) Elliot Spitzer was AG. Current AG Andy Cuomo inherited the case and its existing procedural posture.
It may be that one or more voters’ rights groups might seek to intervene. That has been a constant topic of discussion. Or maybe, I and some other loudmouths here in the Empire State may be able to get the State AG to make a bold shift in tactics.
Bustednuckles @ 30
I’m waiting to see what Andrew Cuomo does with this – he has very big teeth, that one.
LHP,
I have 3pm meeting in Soho. WOuld my presence there for 1/2 hour be worthwhile?
Is there a law against paper ballots?
Katie Jensen @36
Great comment. It should be its own post. thanks.
do-si-do @ 15
I worked as an election inspector in SF during the 80’s and 90’s. I never heard of such an idea.
Somebody SPOTLIGHT this post!!
Eureka Springs @ 45
Another question: how do news organizations figure out what percentage of the vote is in at certain points during election day? I always wondered how they knew that and thought perhaps this list posting had something to do with that…
I need some tech help here.
What is a ‘Trackback’ and how do I use it?
OT…
iht
It doesn’t look as if the Fed is going to be able to push the crash forward to ‘09.
The #1 thru #10 issue for Nov ‘08, the economy stupid.
The State Board of Elections met yesterday at noon. Some activists were allowed to speak before the Board went into executive session with the state attorneys. I spent the morning before the meeting sending out a press release alerting the media to this development. The only reporting I have seen thus far was the Albany Times Union and the ABC affiliate in Albany. Can’t believe the media has ignored this. (Or sadly I can) I posted some information to the New York Net Roots Google Group and will also post to the group site on facebook as soon as there is a report back from the SBOE meeting yesterday.
Katie Jensen @ 36
(my bold)
This sounds a lot like we should not criticize Hillary. If Hillary wants to improve her popularity among the Democratic and progressive base, maybe she should stop acting like A) they don’t exist or B) they are the enemy.
SanderO @ 42
The more people who show up the more likely it will get covered on the news
ES @ 45
I’ve seen the lists posted just outside, so people can make sure they’re registered in the precinct, but not with anything to say that they’ve voted. (It can be nerve-wracking, when you move shortly before an election, and aren’t sure that the address change got through the system.)
Paper ballots – mark them, know for sure how you voted … and hope it gets counted that same way.
I’m on my way!
looseheadprop @ 52
I don’t know whether NYC issues voter registration cards, but if so, bring those along and hold them up for the cameras.
looseheadprop @ 35
Yep. Subway series indeed. And it won’t be pretty. It will be nasty and dragged out. And I can’t wait.
Fern @ 43
Interestingly the only solution that would comply with NYS standards and the federal standards, although this is not widely advertised, is hand counted paper ballots — a process used by many western European democracies and in some state election districts, but widely resisted by most American election officials.
P J Evans @ 53
It seems that even with optical scan ballots they have found ways of messing with the data that is sent in to the states. There is no clear cut way other than how the Brits do it. Written ballots counted by human beings on teevee with people looking over their shoulders.
If they can do it that way, so can we.
What would happen if the Sec. of state, assuming the feds prevail, refuses to comply with a court order to purchase “rove” machines and goes ahead with elections using the state approved machines. Can the feds disallow the election results?
How the heck would the feds stop the elections from going ahead?
What will these people try next.
Fern @ 43
No, as long as you have ballot marking devices to make them handi capped accessable. This the DOJ? Rove trying to force DRE’s and certain Optical Scan devices that run Microsoft code that the State cannot audit down our throats.
A key feature of the NYS plan is that ALL computer code has to be either open source or else escrowed with the State so that if someone alleges that coputer code wa either malicias from inception or has been tmapered with/hacked, we cna go back an audit it to see if the election results are fraudulent.
I have been working on how to fraud proof NYS elections for the past 7 fucking years. We made so much progress, it took a long time to build concensus with te republicans in this state.
And Whammo! This punk thinks he’s going to destroy all that with one badly written set of motions papers.
Here’s my Total Voting Goodness System (TVGS)
1. Mark sense forms. Can’t go wrong with #2 pencils and bubbles. Machine can’t read ‘em? Go over ‘em by hand. No hanging chads, no problem.
2. Bingo card daubers. Need to make it handicap-accessible? No problem. Give the voter a big version of the same ballot and a bingo card dauber. Nearly everybody can daub a big blob of ink on a piece of paper. Since there would be relatively few of these, reading them by hand would be no problem at all.
Voting isn’t rocket science. We shouldn’t ought to make it so just because the Federal Government says we should. What are they going to do? Throw Andrew Cuomo in jail?
LS @ 46
Please, not only to the news outlets, to your conrgessional delagations
Biodun @ 56
Or it will be like the real Subway Series, and the Yankees will win in four games.
Re: subway series:
I’m not a Hillary supporter. But if she’s the nominee I will hold my nose and definitely vote for her. My take: In a Hillary-Giuliani race Hillary wins. It might be close. But she wins. If she loses, then this country is really in worse shape than we think.
DOJ to NYS: “You gotta HAVA faulty voting machine.”
Katie Jensen @ 36
Did you post a link to the Discover article later in the comments, Katie Jensen? I hope so. I’ll keep reading in the hope it comes up soon.
Funny, but the Voting Rights section of the DOJ Civil Rights division hasn’t got anything up on their “what’s new” page of their website. You’d think that if they’re going to take over the voting process of the most populous state in the nation, they’d want to stand up and crow about it.
nomolos @ 59
In NYS the county elections commissioners purchase the machines. NYS BOE was going to certify a bunch of machines, and the counties were going to purchase off the pre-certified list.
If they refuse to do it? I have no clue what will happpen. I really don’t
Hugh @ 51
C) Supporting republican policy.
Steaming Pile @ 61
Bingo dabbers is brilliant.
My corollary to your excellent plan – separate party affiliation from voter registration. This business of having your party affiliation right on the voters list is just asking for trouble. You want to pick party candidates? Join the party.
This quote is somewhat worrisome:
PRESIDENT BUSH: “I spoke to President Musharraf right before I came over here to visit with President Sarkozy. And my message was that we believe strongly in elections, and that you ought to have elections soon, and you need to take off your uniform. You can’t be the President and the head of the military at the same time.”
We “believe”…..?
You can’t be Commander-in-Chief and President?
WTF???
Debra Bowen in California is just what the doctor ordered!
Paper ballots marked with a pencils. It would seem to be a reasonable idea to get an accurate count that takes a few days, rather than quick and dubious results. Other countries in the world manage to get millions of national election ballots counted overnight.
Oh? did I say reasonable? Oops, My bad.
Peterr @ 67
Maybe they thought we wouldn’t notice?
Seriously though folks, this is not just NY’s problem. Right now decent elections officials in other states are trying to upgrade or replace the faulty piece o’ crap systems they were rushed into buying, so they can get some integrity back in YOUR elections. If NYS is forced to downgrade to Rove selected machines, the wind will go right out the sails of those other states.
And Diebold wins the elections
City attorney in SF is suing the election machine company for not getting it right
$300k in extra costs due to the wrong software
BaldPrairie @ 73
The thing is, it doesn’t need to take a few days. In Canadian federal elections, most of the votes are tallied and reported within a couple of hours. Really.
I was really amazed in the last US federal election how long it took for some of the returns to come in.
While I applaud the House Judiciary Committee on today’s torture hearing, the witnesses were excellent in debunking Republican talking points, I can’t pass up this dismissive response to the Kucinich Impeach Cheney Resolution:
(my bold)
“Preliminary matter” meaning they are not going to spend 5 seconds on it. Pelosi and Conyers are determined to keep impeachment off the table.
What he means in US terms is that Musharraf can’t be Pentagon Chief of Staff (the military head of the military) and President at the same time. The US Commander-in-Chief is the civilian head of the military.
Suz, sent me this in an email
DOJ Is Trying To Take Over NYS’ Selection of Voting Machines
And Schumer voted in committee to confirm the guy who wants to preside over this?
Will someone tell these jerks that 4 PM election day is too late to fix this stuff?
looseheadprop @ 74
Quick – call Jimmy Carter to monitor NYS elections…
-185
lhp–
Why can’t NYS just go to paper ballots?
Hugh @ 77
Hugh, I read that as 1) snark b/c of what the house gop pulled on Tuesday
2) actually a sign of progress that they are actually allowing the topic to see the light of day.
jayackroyd @ 83
After this experience they might be ready to.
Biodun @ 78
That makes sense.
By the way, paper trails only matter if the voter, and then other people (as in people checking the ballot counting) read them. If this seems elementary, then consider this: if the original voter doesn’t check that the paper trail recorded his selections correctly, then he’s been screwed out of his choices immediately and if no one else checks the legitimacy of the ballot-tracing paper, he can be screwed out of it later. All in all, since voting is anonymous (with no form of receipt or checkability, and no publication) there are many ways people can be cheated between the instant the ballot is cast, to the end of any potential challenge period. Check out blackboxvoting.org for more information. It’s scary as hell.
Just want to say how nice it is to see a high traffic blog writing about voting machines.
LS @ 82
If it goes down to -300 something again today, that’s serious stuff.
Biodun @ 89
I take it we are not talking about the weather.
Quick – call Jimmy Carter to monitor NYS elections…
Hate to say it, but Jimmy Carter is one of the reasons we got vapor voting.
Biodun @ 64
If you can’t trust these voting machines (and you shouldn’t), what difference does the vote make as long as it would be close enough to swindle?
Biodun @ 89
-215
SF lawsuit story
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..;hw=voting machines&sn=001&sc=1000
Alice @ 80
Actually, Alice, Schumer would argue that this is why his voting to confirm. Mukasey, in his view, wouldn’t countenance this, but any unconfirmed interim would reliably do this sort of thing.
Speaking as someone who attended the protest at Schumer’s office on Monday in NYC, this is nonetheless an illustration of Schumer’s argument. If you want the 08 federal elections run by hacks and stooges, then don’t confirm.
Of course, what this really illustrates is why impeachment has to be on the table. Bush can only refuse to nominate people, and avoid the consitutionally required confirmation process because he is safe in the knowledge that he won’t be impeached.
Now to continue with Schumer-like reasoning here, there is no point in impeaching unless there will be a convicition, and especially no point in impeaching if the republican senators continue to cleave closely to Bush. Bush is the least popular president and history, and his numbers can only go down. Even a terrorist attack can’t save him now; bin laden is still uncaptured. So his numbers are going to keep spiraling down. Schumer believes that until the republicans are ready to go to the white house and tell him that he doesn’t have the votes, that he has to resign, then the republicans will continue to run the risk of a filibuster proof majority in the senate.
Excellent, excellent post, lhp.
looseheadprop @ 84
I read the Republican reference as snark but at the same time it showed no interest in impeachment itself.
I have a slightly OT question that has been bugging me off and on for a few days (and this may be a stupid question, I realize): Is it legal for Dick Cheney to serve as Vice President under another President? That is, could a nominee choose him as his running mate in 2008?
laurie9 @ 98
There are no term limits for the VP, as I understand it.
Re; stockmarket tumble:
And the US dollar is way down. This might be really serious stuff, folks. In addition to everything else that FDL has been talking about for years. In addition to the state of Pakistan today: the most dangerous place in the world right now.
Spotlighted.
I also ran it by someone at the San Jose Mercury, they have a couple of real tenacious reporters there.
Brantl @ 87
I don’t get this. This is only true if there is no accurate paper trail. But that’s true regardless of the system you use. Ballot boxes have been stuffed, and lost, under any system. This is why you have to have poll watchers under any system.
The problem with machine voting with no paper trail is there is no audit capability in the event of an error or fraud.
Paper ballots are still best. They can be inventoried–1200 ballots out should be 1200 ballots in, minus spoiled ballots. They can be recounted. They can be stored. They are cheap. The only downside is the count can take awhile.
The last two States where I have voted, have had the same system. A paper ballot where you black out the circle by a candidates name, the poll worker then removes the lower portion of the ballot and then sends the ballot through an optical scanner. The ballot is then put in a locked box and the detached piece is put in a second locked box. A quick vote tally with two paper trails..I am sure the system could be cheated but it wouldn’t be easy.
Rove had not anticipated the number of people who would vote and vote for dems. His math did not work in that election. If people feel that the election is rigged then they won’t vote but they must be reminded that the more votes cast the harder it will be to hack the election.
LS @ 99
That is incredibly scary!
OMG. This is unbelievable, LHP. Certainly the NYTimes is covering this. I’m going to go check. Unfreakingbelievable.
do-si-do @ 47
I have worked as a Get Out The Vote (GOTV) poll watcher for the Dems in Indiana elections (in the 1990s, not since then, so things may have changed here). At that time each polling place usually had a Republican poll watcher and a Democratic poll watcher, both volunteers. (Usually the two became friendly over the course of a long stint–might not happen now.) Then we asked voters as they entered the polling place for their names, which most of them gave us, probably under the impression that they were required to do so, which of course they were not. The two poll watchers checked each name with their lists. Every couple of hours party representatives would come to get the marked up lists so each headquarters could call registered voters of that party who had not yet voted to remind them to vote and offer them rides to the polls if they needed them. Posting the lists outside the polling place sounds outrageous and possibly illegal.
Won’t be able to make it in time from Staten Island. You pups who can make it give em a little extra hell for me, and thanks looseheadprop for all your labors on our behalf. I see KKKarl’s fingerprints all over this mess. With you all in spirit. Peace
bluejeansntshirt
laurie9 @ 98
The 22nd Amendment limits only the President to 2 terms. It says nothing about the Vice President so technically yes, Cheney could be VP again. IANAL
-0.202
Biodun @ 100
Bernake has been trying to push the crash forward to ‘09..it’s not working…I think the issue for Nov ‘08 will be the pending depression. Nothing else will come close.
The NYTimes has nothing on this. How can that be possible?
laurie9 @ 105
The Shooter has a nine percent approval rating. Wouldn’t his being on the ballot again push people into the dems arms even more?
Steve-AR @ 103
I don’t worry about poll workers. I worry about the scanners/ machines.
jayackroyd @ 83
It can. But the Vendors are claiming that we are discriminating against them whenever we try that
Re: Blackwater and other nefarious private contractors.
But hold on. The Bush Administration is very concerned about Due Process. As we all know.
An administration statement said it “strongly opposes” the House bill because “the jurisdictional scope of criminal prohibitions would depend on vague notions of ‘proximity’ to potentially poorly defined regions, making unclear the circumstances when those who assist the United States government would be subject to the bill’s criminal sanctions and raising significant Due Process concerns.”
The Senate legislation, introduced by Barack Obama (D-IL), has been referred to the Judiciary Committee, where staff for chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) have been negotiating elements of the bill to reach consensus with the White House.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..71624.html
LHP — You mentioned in your post that the judge seemed to be getting it thus far, do you think it is likely the court will allow this sort of shenanigans? The first branch is criminal, the second has failed us, and now you’re us telling the third branch will come down on the side of the criminals? We are in big trouble indeed. Wish I was in NYC today — good luck!
Brantl @ 87
That’s why the solution is paper ballots, hand marked, hand counted!!! Forget “audit trails or receipts.
Scrap the electronic machines, Period. Way too easy to corrupt centrally, en masse. Mechanical machines at the most, but paper is still required. PAPER provides an original source and a verifiable trail.
K.I.S.S.
Well, good things the Dems addresses the voting issues in time for 2008… oh wait, they didn’t!!! Idiots!! Winning too much would mean they would actually have to produce real, people oriented, results… can’t have that, now, can we!
“Long Island officials said there was too little time remaining before next year’s presidential election to smoothly roll out new voting machines. They predicted chaos at the polls.
“It’s bizarre and unworkable,” said William T. Biamonte, the Democratic elections commissioner in Nassau County. “We need a minimum of 11 months working time to get it done, and New York City would probably need longer.”
http://www.newsday.com/news/lo…..6824.story
I think it would be safe at this point to declare the republican party a terrorist organization. They certainly are determined to fuck with things affecting National security, like vote tampering.
OT
FWIW, I just sent the following message to Dennis Kucinich (info (at) dennis4president.com). I heard him on yesterday’s Thom Hartmann show asking for people to send messages in support of his resolution to impeach Cheney.
He plans to collect them all and present the comments to the House Judiciary Committee (to whom his bill was referred).
Here’s my message:
marymccurnin @ 113
If you can trust that the 2008 election will be fair/just/above-board, then sure, there’s no problem. But I’m more than a bit worried that there will be just enough dirty tricks that the unthinkable will happen….
Steaming Pile @ 61
Do you have any experience actually “going over by hand” mark sense forms? It doesn’t sound like it. People will mark one item, change their mind, incompletely erase the first mark, haphazardly mark another item. Also people don’t always completely fill in the bubble; some just check it or draw a line through it.
“Nearly everybody” is not the problem in any voting system. Its those dang 5%-ers that throw the monkey wrench in any system. Blobs of ink? Oh, God. Have you ever actually tried working such a system with an actual representative sample of voters? I doubt it.
Voting is not rocket science. But discerning voter intent can require some rocket science, especially for those 5%-ers who have trouble for one reason or another.
Whatever the technology is, it should be voter verifiable. That is, the person casts his/her vote, and then someone or something interprets their vote and reads it back to them, asking: Is this what you wanted? The person responds yes or no. Any “no’s” get diverted to a voter assistance helper.
My own experience as a poll-worker suggests that elderly voters will make mistakes, and even when their mistakes are caught and brought to their attention, will wave their mis-interpreted vote through anyway, because they don’t want to fuss with straightening it out.
I highly recommend volunteering as poll-worker in your next local election. It will give anyone a much better understanding of the process of voting than any kind of theory will do. I repeat,
Voting is not rocket science. But discerning voter intent can require some rocket science.
Bob in HI
looseheadprop @ 115
So they make an inferior product and then whimper when people don’t want to buy it? Makes sense to me.
Yeah, I think the Dems will need to win about 70-75 percent of the vote (at least) in order to eke out a narrow margin of victory in the “official” tally.
This NYS problem is simply a foreshadowing of the things to come in the next year. Look for more hinky regs coming from the neoconstituionals, false flags, Blackwater violence, and an economy so bad that people will be afraid to take on the neoconstituionals. Shock Doctrine is as American as apple pie.
SufiLizard @ 121
I also emailed yesterday. I think the tide is turning (how many times have I said that these last few years?!)
I’m so sick of my Senator DiFi and the wimpy all talk democrats. Where are the breakout congress people? Why is everyone soooo cowed? What does the NSA have on every one of these people?
Years from now we may know. But we need to know now!
BaldPrairie @ 73
Paper ballots marked with a pen, not pencil. And I like the idea of their being counted with reps of all parties looking on and the counting process televised, to boot.
Cheney has absolutely no intention of running for President or being someone else’s VP. That’s why he’s playing an endgame right now. He has nothing to lose. Nothing. He has no horizons. Now that’s what’s scary.
The Republicans cheer!
“States rights, states rights. Except when we aren’t for states rights!”
The pudification of America under the Bush/Cheney axis of douchebags continues unabated.
-GSD
RevDeb @ 58
Absolutely.
Opscans can fail or be tampered with the same as DREs.
Congress needs to pass a PAPER BALLOT bill Now.
Biodun @ 129
He’s like the perverted Tiberius ready to turn Rome over to the continued misrule of Caligula.
Thanks Dick.
-GSD
Hugh @ 77
John Conyers has sold out. Remember all of those interviews before the last election, saying how he was gonna hold BushCo to account… yada yada yada. It was all hype, he has not done squat but bluster and obfuscate. Impeachment is sick joke when the chair of the judiciary committee is too busy shuffling papers to investigate the vice-president for treason. What a farce!
valletta @ 127
Just one brave congressperson or senator needs to come forward. All of them know what is going on. ALL. Feingold, Kucinich, Webb, yes-even the good guys.
Biodun @ 129
Cognitive dissonance: the ability to play his endgame AND plan to run America from his bunker for another decade.
Biodun @ 129
I agree.
Also SufiLizard, I like your letter.
Vote by Mail is the way to go
LS @ 46
Everybody. To the New York Freaking Times.
Loo Hoo @ 132
Endorsing torture, immunizing telcos, funding illegal occupations, passing Kyl/Lieberman is so much more important. /s
In addition to everything else. This from Sid today in Salon:
Lord help us all!
Loo Hoo @ 106
Nope. so far crickets.
We sent a set of the motion papers to the Albany correspondant for the NY DAily News
Tula’s upstairs…
Here we go again – more terra all the time …
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thebl…..fbi-a.html
Poor Bush, he wants us to shop, but he also needs us quaking in our boots at the thought of Al Qaeda.
Now the two have met.
-GSD
Bustednuckles @ 120
I’m laughing and crying at the same time….
bob @ 123
You missed that they’ll ignore the #2 pencil instruction also. Blue ball-point pen, India ink, red ball-point pen … I’ve seen it myself, and that was with people who are fiercely, proudly literate.
And this also from Sid:
My bold. I like that.
(Same link as above.)
We have one year to institute a system for hand counting our ballots. There are no acceptable alternatives.
Paper ballots & opscans using open source software combined with protocols for testing which also provide for the easy triggering of hand recounts when requested are a distant alternative. But if you’re going to have to hand count to check accuracy whu not hand count to begin with?
The repubs are willing to have elections as long as they can steal them. If not, we’re gonna have something bad happen in Oct. 08.
LHP, this is really scary. If I were anywhere new NY I’d be there with you at City Hall.
looseheadprop @ 79
Toldja. “Refund?!”
Bill Biamente is MY elections cmmioner.
He is such a good guy.
P J Evans @ 147
Even if the required pencil is in the voting booth? Personally, I like making my X in the big circle, but that’s just me. Better for people with visual and motor issues as well.
do-si-do @ 151
Maybe they can sell their used and de-certified machines to New York. Halliburton can broker the deal for a small fee.
Silly LHP! “States’ Rights” only exist when they’re the “right” of the states to keep Democrats and black people from voting.
Remember, remember, the fifth of November. I thought V for Vengenance was totaly about Bush. I did not realize it was a comic book from the 80s or something. But the movie was all about right now. And besides the fantasy of a single person ridding the country of evil fascists, the reason the movie ended well was the thousands of people donning the V mask and marching peacefully. That is the key to changing this event and all other miscarriages of this corrupt administration. But how do we convince people to stop watching Dancing with the Stars, Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader, and Idol, and start marching for and defending their country, the very thing that provides them the opportunity to watch such drivel?
looseheadprop @ 152
(((hug)))
JML @ 154
Probly an international market too. ;)
Bay State Librul @ 19
No shit- and all they need is a Dem candidate whom the public believes only has a 50% chance of winning the general and POOF! They steal another election with little or no fuss. Unless, we don’t give them that candidate (Hillary)…
The retirement of Karl Rove is a myth, people.
For more background on this I have posted the press release from Northeast Citizens for Responsible Media at http://www.re-mediablog.com .
Re-media held a conference on this subject last June at SUNY New Paltz and our representative attended and spoke at the public portion of the SBOE meeting yesterday in Albany. I will continue to post any new information we have at this site.
orctjf @156:
Uhm, I write and phone my Congresswoman and Senators frequently (several times a week), and try to understand the current political situation and take whatever actions to change it whenever I can.
What does watching Dancing with the Stars have to do with NOT being active in politics?
Some of us CAN do both…sigh.
Having lived and voted in NYC for many years, I’m surprised and mildly horrified to hear that New York does Election Day “better than anyone”. Ancient machines, long lines, barely trained volunteers, and a supervisory system based on patronage. Works OK as long as nothing out of the ordinary happens, but otherwise… I served as an election monitor in 2000, when some Brooklyn districts were disrupted by broken machines and high turnout, and I had to 1) argue for 20 minutes with the poll workers to explain that they couldn’t keep letting people vote on the partially broken machines; 2) help them find the instructions for how to use the backup paper ballots – which they ignored, & gave several dozen people the wrong ones; 3) watch the entire staff simply refuse to count the paper ballots at the end of the day as they were legally required to do, and instead hand them over in boxes to some cops who said they’d put them in with the absentees. One person got in mild trouble for this, I think.
Maybe the rest of the state is better than NYC. I can’t imagine that NY does it more smoothly than California, though – I’ve lived in SF for 5 years, voted 4 times and spent less than 5 minutes there each time. (BTW, I’ve never seen anything remotely like the story at #15.)
looseheadprop @ 84
http://discovermagazine.com/bl…..erm=voting machines
http://discovermagazine.com/20…..g-machines
These are two articles the later is the one that was written before the elections. I have posted these several times before…but here they are again. Also I don’t know how to find the HBO video of the special they had on hacking but they did it in front of us. Not very many people seemed to have watched it, but they aired it right before the 2006 elections.
my apologies, as I don’t really want to single out specific shows implying anything (I watch the Simpsons constantly myself). It seems that more people are content to not be involved in something as serious as the political situation and would rather be comfortable separating themselves from reality. And I write and call, too, but wonder how much that really makes a difference. The numbers matter, and a physical presence like thousands on the march matters most, but in these days of mega reality distractions, motivation shrinks and thus it is easier for the fascists to move in.
Biodun @ 141
I wonder if this would be Cheney’s solution: Bomb them! Bomb them all! Shock and awe! Use the nukes! We’ve got plenty of them! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
Bob in HI
P J Evans @ 147
You’re right. Then they’ll mark the wrong item, realize they’ve marked wrong, cross out their first mark and mark another. Of course, this will look to the optical sensor like the person has made two choices where only one is allowed. With any luck, the optical reader will reject the ballot and ask for a clarification, which usually means getting a new ballot and starting all over again. Not everyone wants to do that.
Bob in HI
dakine01 @ 14
We recently switched from nearly-defunct adelphia e-server to thunderbird. Thunderbird does not withhold delivery of that type of e-mail (ACLU, PAC and political action groups), but they pretty routinely flag each one with a cute little “Thunderbird thinks this is SPAM” thingie at the top. Infuriating after awhile, because it keeps happening even though they also give us a little box to click on, labelled, “not spam”. Groan. Eventually I guess we need to dive into the bowels of the electronic dumpstermommy and and change some obscure default setting so-as to tell her to STOP MESSING WITH OUR MAIL!
Good luck RevDeb. Is Ver*zon one of those monsters run from ch-eye-nah, or am i confusing it with sit-eebanque?
D’ya think the day will come when so many of these mega’s merge that they cause a wobble in the earth’s axis? -duh-
p.s., apologies for OT lhp. Terrific post! Here in our corner of OH, the machines still proudly display their dyebold-ly, but the little voting card they hand you doesn’t. When I mused out loud on that thot, an election worker commented, “they’re not THAT stupid.” Heh. I wonder how many were trashed by angry voters in previous elections.
Fern @ 153
“Making an X” means not filling in the bubble completely. The mark will be in the gray area between “Marked completely” and “Not marked at all.” Then it depends on how the optical reader’s sensors have been set. That is, at what level of completeness is a bubble processed as “marked”? Set it too low, and stray marks get registered as votes. Set it too high, and “X” marks aren’t recognized. Most optical sensors, so far as I know, are not equipped to discern which bubble is most completely filled in, and to ignore the others.
Its just the hanging chad thing all over again, but with a different technology.
Bob in HI
Why doesn’t the state file a counter lawsuit? You listed numerous grounds for such action.
It’s interesting how all this was under Pataki’s watch. You would’ve thought he would’ve rammed this through the way other Republican governors had done. Odd.
I wonder if California is next. The Secretary of State Debra Bowen, decertified the use of touch-screen automated voting machines unless they leave a paper-trail and allows the voter the review their votes.
do-si-do @ 25
If you want to make it an issue. When they put it up, cross it out.
Poll workers certainly have the right to see who voted, party affiliation (particularly in primaries), and to check to see if you are eligible. But I don’t think the general public has that right. However, apparently the same information is sold by the California Secretary of States office on computer disk. Campaigns get this material to use in direct mail and phone campaigns. Don’t understand the logic behind it being a “public record”.
Fern @ 76
They could be counted all day as the ballots come in. No need to wait until the polls close. Geez. My elementary student council could come up with this.
do-si-do @ 47
Exit polling I thought. Or perhaps they can get that information from the Registrar of voters.
LS @ 99
Cheney…Yes. The only prohibition is that a President cannot serve more than two FULL TERMs. That’s why Bill possibly couldn’t serve as VP, as that would make him eligible to be President if Hillary died or incapacitated. Then again, perhaps the chain of succession would simply skip over an ineligible person in the line of succession.
I really can’t think that a former President couldn’t serve in some of the lower offices listed.
In Canada, we use paper ballots, hand counted. The list of voters does not have party affiliation included, but the major parties are entitled to scrutineers at each polling station, and they can pass information on to others about who on the voting list has actually voted, periodically during election day. There are several restrictions, e.g. no email, no cellphones, no party affiliation in your attire (including blatant colour) at the polling stations.
It requires a large number of electoral officers to count the ballots, two per poll: one to count, one to tally the count. Scrutineers get to challenge improperly/illegibly marked ballots during the count, and basically ensure the count is valid.
One consequence is that, excepting very close races, you get to know the day of the election how your candidate did, and if you’re willing to wait a few hours, how the country voted. It’s not foolproof, people have stolen and vandalized ballot boxes, but it mostly works pretty well.
If I were an American citizen, I would ask that my party affiliation not be included in the voter list.
Interim counts might not be a great idea. You could possibly determine how someone voted if the interim counting were done frequently enough.
The convicted criminal, Bob Ney, helped write HAVA. Can laws written by convicted criminals like Ney be reexamined with the writer’s criminality being taken into consideration?
HAVA’s short time span for compliance certainly and handily abetted cramming down the states’ throats those certain voting systems available on such short notice, wink, wink.
looseheadprop, I hope there will be some additional coverage of this rally, and I hope there will be results from it.
Thank you so much for another wonderful post!
-S
League of Women Voters of New York State
LHP- has League of Women Voters been contacted?
Contact info has phone #. I would phone, but as I am out of state, I don’t have the same creds as someone in state might have.
I will send this to a friend in a local org (Tompkins County).
Democracy dies not with an explosion, but with a whisper in the night. That night was October 30, 2007. The whisper came from Senator Charles Schumer as he announced his support for torturing American citizens and the Unitary Executive theory. His name will live in infamy. I really don’t think we’ll have to worry about voting machines in Nov 08. We’ll be worrying about the Blackwater team at the front door asking about our party affiliation.
Hi there! I’m from Diebold, here to help you.
JML @ 160
Oh thank you, I have a copy of the press release, but didn’t have a link for it
election???
machines?
DoJ?
no, no, no.
DoI.
bodies.
electing to enact the DoI.
abolishment vs. not.
…it’s time to convene.
something altogether new.
actual representation.
actual communication channels.
we need to be thinking about an alternative postal system *now*, for cryin’ out loud.
this plug here can be pulled any time now.
elections? my god.
tooth fairy stuff.
minutia of which even.
at this point, ‘voting’ over imperceivable shades of black is meaningless.
we’re driving jack benny’s old maxwell.
it’s time for costner and his horse.
(and his catamaran too.)
alank @ 170
Bush and Rove didn’t like Pataki (or D’Amato either–which is odd, you’d thik they would have seen him as a kindred spirit?)
Thye treat Patacki like crap, there is no way they would have included him in the loop
cinnamonape @ 175
As did John Adams, IIRC
Valley Girl @ 180
They already sent out a press release full of outrage. They didn’t need me to call them.
looseheadprop @ 186
I don’t believe that a two-term President could then be elected VP. The max time IIRC from the 22 amendment is ten years total, that is, two years of a previous pres’s term plus two terms on own.
John Q Adams served in the House after losing his re-election bid. But that was also prior to the 22 Amendment
looseheadprop @ 187
Thanks, LHP! I just went back to the site and couldn’t find a current press release. So, if you or anyone has a link, please post.
The League of Women Voters does incredibly good work. If only they were still running the presidential debates. What a difference that would make.
Well this might explain why the corporate media is so all fired determined to have Guilliani as the Republican nominee. When the Republicans win New York in the presidential election they can say it was because of Guilliani not the bogus voting machines.
Probably EPU’d, but doesn’t one of the scandnavian countries (Norway I believe) have electronic voting? but it is completely above board.
#8..revdeb…We are getting a wind farm here in upper state Maine. The turbines are made by GE…Lots of illegal stuff going on by the company putting in the wind farm and the state of Maine. My neighbor and I both have most emails referring to the wind farm to disappear. I have presumed it is the GE connection…fascist state. But it is very discouraging.
Loosie,
Hate to tell you this, but this isn’t a Schlozzie/Hans/Tanner special screw-the-voters suit. The attorney who is behind this is a loyal liberal Dem who stays in his office every day with the door closed because he doesn’t care for Tanner and his ilk.
The Voting Section at DOJ has committed plenty of sins and has hired lots of idiots. The guy prosecuting this suit is not one of them. He was in the Section under Joe Rich and is a committed supporter of voting rights.
This case is actually about accessibility for the disabled, not about voter purges, phony vote fraud claims, or suppression.
It is sad, however, that John Tanner, Susana Lorenzo-Giguere, Yvette Rivera, Hans von Spakovsky, and Brad Schlozman have done such damage to the reputation of the Voting Section that every action the Section takes is immediately suspect. I don’t blame anybody for suspecting ulterior motives.
Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.
Or — all too believable. What a nerve.