George Packer at The New Yorker has been following the saga of Iraqis (and Afghans) who have worked with US forces and governmental interests and media outlets, only to find themselves and their families endangered as collaborators when the situation grew more and more dicey. The shame is that our State Department has worked to tighten immigration to prevent these people — who risked their lives working with and for our interests – from coming into the country. As George explains:
…Miska wrote me to say that he was going to commit himself to getting his unit’s local staff who were under threat out of Iraq and into the U.S. Now Miska is at the end of his fifteen-month tour and about to leave Iraq. Last night, he wrote in an e-mail:
We have five Iraqis in the US, all interpreters. We have more than two dozen more with packets in various stages of completion. Even though this is the special [immigrant] visa streamlined process, I don’t think the Iraqis could have figured it out without my staff. It took a concerted effort to decipher the system and develop the points of contact at each echelon to work through the red tape. We have had more success than most. Still, the policy calls for the final visa approval to take place in Amman. Iraqis must come up with an alibi to get to Amman, as “I’m going to the U.S. Embassy” will get you quickly turned around at the Jordanian border. We set up a bit of an underground railroad from our location and it has worked.
So here is one soldier who has made it his last mission not to leave his Iraqi friends behind. Many other soldiers are doing the same thing, as individuals and through organizations like the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. In the case of the military, the reason is clear: an institutional ethos and shared dangers create a debt of gratitude and a strong bond. A handful of civilian officials from various departments are also pushing on behalf of their Iraqi friends. But the State Department, as an organization, has disgraced itself.
It lobbied against a Senate resolution that would increase the number of special immigrant visas for Iraqis by tenfold and allow applications to be reviewed inside Iraq. After promising to resettle seven thousand Iraqis here this fiscal year, it managed only sixteen hundred and eight. After promising to resettle twelve thousand in fiscal year 2008, it started off with just four hundred and fifty in October. The projected numbers are meaningless P.R., which is how the department treats the issue….
According to the latest reports from McClatchy, one in seven Iraqis are displaced due to the conflict in their country. One in seven. The UNHCR estimates that there are nearly 2 million Iraqi refugees who have fled outside the borders into neighboring countries, with a further 2.25 million displaced Iraqis inside the country’s borders as well, fleeing ethnic and religious strife and violent upheaval in their former communities.
There are substantial concerns that this upheaval, which continues to pour into neighboring countries with no real assistance from American or British interests, will pose a substantial destabilizing effect for the entire region already roiled as it is. Just a daily read through Juan Cole’s reporting is enough to give you a feel for just how unstable things can get on a daily basis without adding even more volatility, despair and fertile extremist recruiting prospects to the mix by the US government’s systematically not giving a rat’s ass about the problems we, ourselves, helped to create.
Afghan refugees are facing similar issues, with both Iran and Pakistan forcibly ejecting desperate Afghans back to their communities despite ethnic and religious strife and a growing Taliban presence that threatens numerous lives.
In short, we have one holy mess. And one for which our nation carries a great debt. Again, from George Packer:
A coda to yesterday’s post on the State Department: a desperate department official wrote to me, describing the sluggishness with which refugee applications in Syria and Jordan are being reviewed:
There is no excuse for this kind of mindless bureaucratic approach. I can’t find anyone here who seems to care that some of them seem to be on the verge of abandoning their cases. Know anyone who could do a one-page article somewhere to get the ball moving again?
So conscientious people on the inside have nowhere to turn but the press.
I thought it was high time this debt got some attention, too, so I’m raising the issue. These people are not merely things we can pick up, use, and then throw away. They have risked their own lives and the lives of their families for the promise of a better future for themselves and their nation, for the hope of a paycheck and also more stability in the long-run, for the dream that is American freedom. And when things went badly instead of the rose-colored scenario that Rummy and Dick laid out for the faithful, we brushed aside our debt to them as if all of their risk meant nothing to us at all.
For shame. Shame on Condi Rice and the State Department, and shame on George Bush. This is the embassy airlift in Vietnam writ large — we should have done better then, and we sure as hell should have learned to do better now. Condi Rice is hoping that this issue will just disappear off her plate if she continues to ignore it long enough — not gonna happen, honey.
Sen. Ted Kennedy and others in the Senate have introduced legislation to help. It is high time that it was passed and that the US made good on its debts.
(Photo of an Iraqi refugee in Jordan via .ash. And a personal note, much love to Nicole from C&L on the passing of her beloved Maman.)
Related posts:
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Senator Byron Dorgan, Reckless!: How Debt, Deregulation and Black Money Nearly Bankrupted America
- Pride And Petulance
- The Major General’s Temper Tantrum
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder





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1
Zed?
I always get EPU’d ;-)
Morning, Christy!
Typo alert: “…only to find themselves and their families endagnered…”
They have no shame.
mack @ 5
Then we need to pile the shame on until they’re buried in it.
Morning all. Thanks, peanutbutter — will snag it. Am running a little behind this morning, so there are likely to be more — was typing quickly.
Good morning, Miss Christy. Thank you as always for bringing “unintended consequences” before us all.
Yes, this is a tragedy. We have done so much damage to so many people, and yet we won’t even offer them refuge.
Shameful.
Sadly I have lost all hope in Democratic leadership after yesterday.
The Republicans opened the door to debate impeachment, which incidentally would have provided a HUGE spotlight on all the crimes of this Administration and the Republican (and too many Democrats too) enablers.
The Republicans were gambling that it would backfire, but in fact it could have been the opening Democrats needed to really take down the fascist elements trying to ruin this country.
But once again the spinelessness and short-sightedness of Democratic leadership knows no bounds.
Here’s how I see this one going down.
Some Democrat: “We owe it to these brave Iraqis who have risked to much to help our cause…”
Bush Spokesman: “Boo!”
Democrats: “Arrrrrrghhhhh!!!!” running away screaming and crying
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
I didn’t see any others :-)
And, FWIW, this may be the sole time in my lifetime where I have agreed with legislation that Grover Norquist and Joe Lieberman are also supporting. It’s an odd confluence of folks on the Kennedy legislation, but it is long, long overdue.
Sufi at 9 — It’s a bi-partisan bill being pushed not just from the left, but by some very powerful names on the right. Surprisingly so, I might add…
SufiLizard @ 9
Slight correction, with apologies…
I know exactly what you mean *headdesk*
Why should they feel shame? This is the desired result. This is the “creative destruction” of Michael Ledeen; one component of Podhoretz’s eliminationism and the beginning of the chaos to bring the “End Time”.
Christy,
Another marvelously written piece on an issue that has to get attention. Am not surprised by the administration’s treatment of these Iraqis. They abandon anyone/anything when past the point of usefulness to them.
I never thought I would see the darkest sides of human nature so fully on display (and by some, celebrated) among our elected officials.
This crap alone is worth putting impeachement “back on the table” Where is your head Ms. Nancy? I know you were alive in ‘75, even though you may have been insulated and cocooned in some Silk enclave somewhere with your head stuck where the sun don’t shine.
It is difficult to shame the shameless.
Christy, You are so right. This is the travesty that I describe to people who start bleating about immigration issues. We cannot even save the Iraqi interpreters because our policy is so dysfunctional. Legal immigration is not available even to these people, never mind the Mexican migrant workers. Condi Rice has been living the Peter Principle since the beginning of the administration.
I take some heat in the comments for supporting Joe Biden, but this precisely illustrates why I do. He actually cares about Iraqis as fellow human beings and is trying to do something about the terrible situation we have created in Iraq. Whether he is right or wrong about the tripartite solution is less important to me than the fact that while he does not want to continue babysitting a civil war, he is not willing to endorse a rush to the door with a genocide in our rear view mirror. He is a cosponsor on this legislation.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 12
I know, I was just venting my frustration with Democrats.
Isn’t it sad that we have to hang our hopes on Republicans to get anything done?
Thank you Christy for another great post. Apropos those one in seven folks, most of whom have no way of immigrating (and the majority of whom are women and children): the International Red Cross Red Crescent is one of the few agencies able to reach these people. Their headquarters in the Mansour neighborhood of Baghdad was shelled today, destroying 2 of their vehicles. If folks are able, here’s where one can go to make a donation. (text site).
Jane (nyc) at 15 — I did some work with an NGO at the UN when I was in college, and I knew several people in the UN Secretariat who worked on refugee issues. At the time, the first Gulf War under the first President Bush was ramping up and then on-going, and the issues with the Kurds and the Shi’ia populations then were volatile and difficult. This is nothing new in Iraq, but the scale of it is beyond what was happening then. Back then, the big worry was Turkey and Iran (funny how some things don’t change, isn’t it?). But now it encompasses Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and so much more of the region.
The fact that we cannot look past a few little short term possibilities to the long-term thought process that ought to be required for any action of this magnitude is both stunningly stupid and painful. This is the level to which American diplomacy, foreign policy, logistical planning and military efficiency has sunk under George W. Bush. We will be generations in the rebuilding of our reputations and our long-term prospects, let alone our diplomatic ties. What a freaking mess this is.
It’s also sad when the children on Kid Nation are less childish than our actual U.S. Congress.
they can’t come here and they can’t have driver’s licenses if they do
katherine Graham Cracker @ 23
But if we let them have drivers licenses they might vote.
I expect no less from our government. The Bush Administration is to say the least, duplicitous. And of course some might argue that the Iraqis and Afghans who have been working with the American government are little more than traitors and collaborators with the occupiers. Wonder how I’d feel about other countries giving refuge to refugees of an armed foreign force occupying Oklahoma who had been killing my women, children, the elderly and the sick?
Timely, beautiful post.
We live in insane times. Sanity is in short supply. Thank goodness for the net and some blogs! I am a “hit and run” poster here – but I do read and appreciate the main posts here. You consistently hit the right notes!
“Our interests”. What are our interests in Iraq? Enforced Democracy Bush style, at the point of a gun? Hegemony? U.S. empire building? Being the world’s policeman? Political control of the Middle East? Oil?
forgetting of course
you don’t need a driver’s license to register to vote
An OT…Gag me…
TPM
katherine Graham Cracker @ 28
Maybe not, but in many states now (mine included) you need one to actually vote.
And another thing. How much money did we pay these Iraqis working for Bush. Was Chalabi the dispenser of fiduciary gratitude?
SufiLizard @ 30
some form of id not everyone has a dl
Condi is a big failure as Secretary of State. And she also fell on her ass as National Security Adviser. And also: Stanford might not want her back as Provost; the students there are already up in arms about that. Maybe she can be the NFL Commissioner that, by her own admission, she always dreamt about.
Plus: Let’s remember that she said she was a “terrible long-term planner.”
OKK — A lot of these folks have been doing refugee assistance, food distribution and the like. We should not leave them to die because they were trying to help out their fellow countrymen by aiding diplomatic and other efforts. That’s immoral. We sold them a bill of goods going in that we would do the work necessary to free their country — something that a lot of these folks have been waiting for generations to see — and then we produced fumble after fumble on long-term strategery.
Call it whatever you like, but shitting on these people after we’ve used them up is wrong on so many levels. And no amount of one-sentence zingers changes that at all.
Some might argue that these “refugees” who had performed for the Bush characters, are little more than stooges and war criminals trying to escape the same judgement and punishment that Condi, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rove, Powell, and Cheney and others should face for their war crimes.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 34
And let’s not forget what Bush-1 did — he made promises that he could not – and knew he would not – fulfill. And lots and lots of people died because of that.
Do we owe these people nothing? We may be stupid(and have certainly shown ourselves to be so), but at least let’s show a little loyalty to a people who never did us any harm.
How far we have fallen..From TPM..
TPM
Christy Hardin Smith @ 34
Those are not the folks I am talking about. And as to ‘one line zingers’, I do not like or choose to employ verbosity.
On the Today Show this morning, Shirley MacLaine told Matt Lauer that she’s scared of “mad men at the head of democracies.”
And when Lauer said he’s skeptical of people who say they are “at peace with death,” MacLaine responded that “it’s better to be at peace with death than to be at peace with everything that’s going on right now.”
Now IMHO, that’s one wise sister of Warren Beatty, even if some think she’s weird because of her “other worldly” experiences and her sightings of UFOs. And let’s also remember that she helped Deniis Kucinich out financially when he was down on his ass in the late 1980s and 1990s.
I am shamed, shamed to be represented in the world by these pigs masquerading as part of humanity.
I have an empty room in my house george send one family
Toby Wollin @ 36
Want to help the people of Iraq? Get our troops out of their country. Now.
I work with refugees as a large part of my job. This country has room for plenty of them. In my area alone, we’ve re-settled a dozen Iranian families (all with ties to Iraq!) in the past year or two. Go figure.
Of course, for the Bushies to actually help out these people is a tacit admission that things, to put it VERY mildly, simply aren’t working.
They can’t admit that invading Iraq led directly to the deaths of over a million Iraqis, and the uprooting of over five million Iraqis, out of a pre-war population of twenty-seven million.
the US government’s systematically not giving a rat’s ass about the problems we, ourselves, helped to create.
I forgot to say thank you Christy for this post.
Thanks you do a hell of a lot of work and it is appreciated.
My personal opinion-Impeach the son of a bitch
How much more ugly shit has to be thrown at us before we say en mass-get the fuck out of the whitehouse you incompetent excuse for a human being.
Who do we believe. Apparently, we are faced with this basic problem. Juan Cole reports daily. Reuter reports daily. Mclatchy reports daily. Iraq Today reports daily. Just a few as examples. Yet, our gov also reports. Our media reports.
Who do we believe? Our representatives add to the chaos by spending a few hours or days and they report. Who do we believe? This becomes to real problem. Truth! Who do we believe?
TexBetsy @ 42
Yup. We have room, all right — Jimmy Carter made a point of taking in the Hmong hill tribe refugees whose rellies had worked with the Pentagon and CIA in Southeast Asia in the 1950s, ’60s and ’70s. Minnesota got an influx of them second only to California’s, and thirty years later they’re a big part of the cultural fabric here.
But Bush won’t do the same for the Iraqis because that would mean admitting that a) things in Iraq suck, and b) they aren’t getting better.
This from last June:
Maddy @ 45
Pelosi… I believe is the one to talk to about impeachment. I am not pleased with the Speaker’s decision not to impeach. And I am unconcerned about the “super majority business”.
Just a suggestion but if you really want to get someone out of Iraq tell the State Department that they are a Blackwater employee who just shot someone and they’ll be out in 36 hours, guaranteed.
I have a spare bedroom and bath. Why isn’t Condi asking me to help out?
Also, Marcy is hot dogging this morning. Pakistan.
Iraqi collaborators who aided an invader who destroyed their culture, far more than the Germans ever damaged a European culture (other than Jewish subculture).
If you do bad things, you can expect bad repercussions.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Yes, but since some Democrats will vote with the Republicans, what is really needed is the super duper majority, that’s the one with whipped cream and a cherry on top. Then we would see some action, yes sirree.
And if Minnesota can take in an estimated 40,000 Somali refugees living in the Twin Cities, surely we can take in about half–if not just as many–Iraqi refugees?
Just pitched in for Donna Edwards with a tip for ActBlue.
Woot
Hugh @ 50
Bingo.
Loo Hoo @ 51:
Jee whiz: Can I move in? I’m a Writers Guild writer out of work. (Just kidding.)
Biodun @ 33
That fact is often overlooked because she was such a terrible short and mid-term planner.
I have a few friends that are working on a government contract doing some programming work for the Iraqi government. They have already moved three of their Iraqi co-workers over to the US. The story is very similar, my friends told me it would have been impossible for any of these people to get here on their own, and had they stayed chances are they would have been killed as a collaborator.
Hugh @ 53
I would have wished that Pelosi would have given an okay to an impeachment inquiry a long time ago. It’s not going to happen, in my view. The impeachment hearings would have been crucial. Once Bush is gone, it’s felt all will be forgotten. Should a defense attorney refuse a perceived unwinnable case?
The 110th Congress seems to think it’s in a competition with the 109th for ‘least work done in a session’. They spend more hours in DC, but they still don’t get much done.
I am ashamed that we can’t issue visas to every Iraqi who wants to come here. (I wouldn’t blame them if they don’t want to come.) It’s a measure of the incompetence and lack of planning that State and DoD can’t do even that much for them.
And this from last May:
Only 7000? That’s all?
biodun @39
Which speaks to the question I keep asking. Why is it, that in america, it appears more “moral” to kill for and perhaps die for democracy or freedom but it is not “moral” but weak, to die for peace.
People who are willing to die for peace, are people who are not willing to be controlled by fear. They are the worst threat to those who use power and control. Peaceniks like Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King were killed because of the threat they impose. The message from them is that when you decide to be the owner of your own peace, regardless of what someone else is doing to you, then, and only then do you truly have freedom.
This concept scares those who need sheep to lead. It is in my humble opinion the most threatening concept of all.
Einstein knew this as do many scholars. But the american people are a long way from understanding the concept about making a decision about life based on the benefit of the long term picture instead of the short term good. When you sacrifice for peace, by not reinforcing violence as a valid method, you render power and control a useless weapon.
peace,
Thanks for the war, George Packer.
http://slate.com/id/2093620/entry/2093641/
http://www.wehaitians.com/dreamingofdemocracy.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f…..A9649C8B63
There you go:
Them “terrists”…
(Same link as my 62.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Don’t you change one bit OKK. We understand you. I’m sure CHS does too. ;->
A good morning to all.
OT#1: And all hail to Dennis Kucinich for some good viewing last eve. Dang if that wasn’t fun for just a little while in the midst of this nightmare.
OT#2: Canton OH, home of Die*old, reputed to be turning ever-so-slightly blue-er these days, dumped their repubble mayor & elected a Democrat yestidie, by gum. aayup! Furthermore, repubble U.S.Rep. Regula is retiring – hint, hint, nudge, nudge, BlueAmerica. hello????
*tap tap tap…*
katherine Graham Cracker @ 28
You do in Indiana.
Here is a link to a bill sponsored by both sides of the aisle, apologies in advance is this is old news.
http://kennedy.senate.gov/news…..5B160FB43C
Accept for the moment that the Iraqi people realize that Bush did his invasion and mass murders based upon lies. And if you are an Iraqi and choose to collaborate with Bush, it could prove to be risky.
To be fair to Condi, if this were her responsibility she would demand oversight.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
They are, indeed, collaborators, which is precisely why we have the obligation to provide for them.
Hugh @ 58
Besides seeming to worship at the Bush’s feet (or roots as the case may be), what IS Rice’s claim to fame (other than her supposed expertise in the former Soviet Union)that got her these jobs?
Can we help sponsor families-I know nothing about immigration in this regard..just asking.
But wait: Condi is quiety seeking her real legacy: an Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement that will grant nationhood to Palestine with pre-1967 borders.
Hugh @ 70
LOL!
Hugh @ 70
You’re being very charitable. I fear I just can’t give her the benefit of the doubt any more. She appears to me no more, no less, than a shiny hood ornament, and just as useful.
According a new report (full PDF here) by the Special Inspector General, 14 percent of Iraqis have been displaced by the United States’ invasion of Iraq.
http://www.sigir.mil/reports/q…..r_2007.pdf
Condi’s only area of expertise is the Soviet Union. And since the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, her area of expertise is now obsolete. It’s that simple. That’s why the legacy she’s desperately seeking to leave in the Middle East ain’t gonna happen. She knows nothing about the Middle East.
brendan @ 71
You would feel the same compassion for me if I we’re collaborating with a foreign enemy who was occupying and killing the people of America?
Maddy @ 73
Ask your local priest or minister. A lot of families get settled thru congregations. My mom took in a pregnant woman and child from Rwanda this way.
If guys like Bush would stop starting illegal wars, we might not have war refugee problems.
Oklahamo kiddo:
Why don’t we concern ourselves with our own collaboration in occupying and killing the people of Iraq instead of finding time to revile those unfortunate Iraqis who — whether through necessity, naivete or cupidity — have collaborated with us?
Maddy @ 73
Contact the organizations in your area that deal with refugee resettlement. Here they are almost all church-based, but should not be hard to locate. They’ll tell you what help they need and if you can sponsor refugees. What I have typically seen is that the organization sponsors the refugees and the volunteers help with clothing and furniture drives and other things. Here the refugee families are typically given a year’s rent at one of the apt complexes that the organization has a contract with, but the organization volunteers assist with employment searches, evening English classes, childcare, etc.
Biodun @ 78
I will take issue with your idea that expertise about Russia and surrounding countries is now unnecessary and obsolete. They are still important countries with instability and scary weapons.
brendan @ 82
It’s a tough world out there. Isn’t it? Some things are worth fighting and dying for (say perhaps like one’s country). Some say.
brendan at 71 — Exactly so. This has wider-reaching implications than simply the Iraqis who have worked with us. If we leave them to fend for themselves after working with us, it has the same discouraging effect that Valerie’s outing had on our ability to recruit assets for intel gathering. The next President may have to involve us in a humanitarian mission, in refugee assistance, in some military incursion in a defensive action — any number of things — and if we cannot count on being able to work with locals for assistance, we are screwed.
How we treat the people who work with us now directly impacts whether anyone will be willing to work with us in the future. It is not just about Bush, Iraq and the mess we are in — this has long-term reach. And it makes us less safe if we do not live up to our end of the obligations.
Maddy if you want to email me I can possibly help you locate an organization in your area and find out info from my end about which organizations are most in need of what.
Tex betsy at g mail
Biodun @ 78
Which is exactly why my irony meter pegged recently when she went over there wagging her finger in Putins face telling him how to run his country.
Biodun @ 78
Olmert and Abbas are too weak and unpopular to make a deal and the US is so deeply in Israel’s pocket that Condi has no cards to play. Condi’s legacy is that she was a willing enabler of the worst President in our history.
I think we ought to take Mr. Putin’s warning about Iran very seriously. I trust Putin more than Bush.
Biodun @ 78
She was actually a so-called expert in oil/gas issues involving the Soviets. She never had any expertise in broad, general geo-political issues of the old Soviet Union. In a nutshell….she’s utterly worthless.
Her claim to fame is that she rose thru the Chevron ranks and garnered the attention of Commander Guy. She’s stupid….but also female and Black. Thus, Commander Guy glommed onto her; figuring in his lost-in-the-wilderness way that by using her as a token, ALL blacks thruout America would vote Republican, and thus continue the 1000-year reign of the R team.
When you think of Condi….just think of a dunce-cap. She wears it well.
Ghostman
I think it’s time to consider the possibility that the administration would prefer a state of indefinite civil, with no authoritative central government to grant or not grant basing permissions.
Condi’s expertise is in matching shoes to suits.
OT..Good summary of election results:
Kos
KY-Sen: Schumer says Crit is in
Kos
If that is true then Miss McConnell is in serious trouble.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 90
I would not use the word “trust” with Putin – as I recall, he’s a former KGB guy. Which means that he is dangerous all by himself. He doesn’t need a Cheney. He doesn’t need fawning enablers. I would say, “I take Putin very seriously.” On the other hand, we have to take Bush seriously because he has, at his disposal, people who are so craven and amoral that they would do anything and have already done so, to protect him, his family and their interests. Who knows how much stuff is under the rugs, killed and buried in that man’s name? Cheney and Putin are two guys I’d like to see locked up in the same room and see who comes out alive – actually, that is a no brainer – I’ve seen pictures of Putin with his shirt off – he’s in great shape. Cheney is on life-support in comparison…unless you give him a shotgun of course.
This IS the objective; to de populate, the kill in massive numbers and to create chaos so that there is no effective civil order or government to resist the takeover of whatever we want… in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan energy related.
Mission accomplished. People simply don’t figure into their calculus.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 86
And if we have a responsible government who doesn’t start illegal wars, perhaps we won’t have a need for collabortors. This is not a difficult concept. That’s the big picture.
SanderO @ 96
And grab the oil!
Toby Wollin @ 95
And the present prez’s daddy is the former head of the CIA.
Steve-AR @ 94
Highly recommend pups watch especially this second kos link. She talks about bringing in women voters, labor, and integrity in elections. And she takes Republican rhetoric about “family values” and turns it on its head. Good stuff.
Howie?
One more way to go through the day with a pit of sick in my stomach.
I guess the good news is that the bastards who are responsible for this kind of horror are being thrown or kept out of office.
egregious @ 84:
Russia is not the Soviet Union. The instability you’re talking about is a result of a different geopolitics of the region, a consequence of the breakup of the Soviet Union.. And that same instability would not be there if the Soviet Union were still in existence. It’s that simple.
What did we do with collaborators during WW II?
Hugh @ 89
This is true. And Bibi is on his way back.
OT..Iran pokes a stick at our psychopath-in-chief..very dangerous
Reuters
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
I know what happened to some of the Dutch ones.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
Collaborators with us, with the allies? Those were The Resistance in the various countries. They were heroes and people like Tito ended up as country leaders.
Collaborators with the Axis? Well, in Paris, as I recall, any woman who collaborted with the Germans had her head shaved and was made to walk naked through the streets with a sign around her neck.
Biodun @ 102
egregious works with the Russians arranging healthcare for infants, so she is familiar with Russia, if you don’t mind my saying so Biodun :)
OKK at 103 — The ones who worked with us were brought here to the US if need be while the conflict was ongoing. You know, folks in the French Resistence, in Nazi-controlled terrortory resistence movements, etc. People who work with us are supposed to be taken care of under our protection — that’s how we keep having people work with us.
Toby Wollin @ 107
I am talking of nazi collaborators.
OT – Sarkozy addressing US Congress on CSPAN1 Live.
Further egregious @ 84:
Now that’s not quite what I said, is it. I was talking about the Soviet Union as an area of expertise.
Do we have to take Chalabai?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 110
OKK – I’m no expert. I just recall seeing a photograph taken of those women in the streets of Paris. But it was the French who did this, not the Allies – I have the feeling that the Allies turned a blind eye to local situations where people took revenge on their own.
Elliott @ 108:
Agsin: I’m talking about the Soviet Union, not about Russia. Please see my 112.
There is a short interesting article on global climate change here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..fer=energy
Basically, it is saying that we will probably miss the window to keep global climate changes at the small end of the scale.
It does not take into account the economic impact of peak oil on the process however. But no matter how you cut it things don’t look good.
Christy’s upstairs…
OT..
From Jeralyn:
talkleft
Christy Hardin Smith @ 109
The situation is different. Bush started an illegal war based upon lies. There were no WMD’s. And Bush knew it. World War two was about ethnic cleansing among other things. Like Greenspan said, Iraq was about oil.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 110
Here you go – seems relatively encyclopedic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…..laborators
OKK at 119 — So your answer then would be “Sucks to be the Iraqis trying to negotiate food deals for their fellow citizens or translators trying to prevent more violence in their own neighborhoods. If they worked wiht the Bush Administration, a pox on their houses.” then?
Because that really isn’t in our long-term best interest, nor is it morally defensible, in my opinion. If you are saying something else, please let me know.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 121
You are appear to be talking about oranges. I am pointing to apples. Bringing the folks who feed and care for Iraqis to the U.S. as a result of the Bush murderous escapade is not the issue. I am talking about collaborators who collaborate with the American military. Is this about a communication problem? If not, let’s do it.
The presence of dissident Iraqi immigrants in the USA would make the disaster of the Bush years visible for a generation. They don’t want an immigrant community as tight as the Cubans in Florida. They don’t want them here because in silent smoke-filled rooms they’ve identified them as the new race baiting “other”. They don’t want them here for the same self-serving reason they refuse to give DC residents the vote in federal elections: they won’t vote the Right way.
The consequences of this policy, of course, will be horrible. The “collaborationists” left behind won’t simply be ostracized and shorn of their hair. They will greet the prophet and the one God much earlier than planned. But as Cheney always says, “Why do the right thing when the wrong thing hides my problems so much better?”
Good thread, Christy; and when Iraq implodes, and the american people get tired of covering george bush and the GOP’s asses by leaving our troops there to referee his civil war, we might ask how the goopers who are shreiking about the “immigration threat” will react to the Muslims trying to avoid being pureed for helping us, as they come here looking for a place to survive?
I have been reading this outstanding blog for about a year, and I think I get that there is a race to be the first commenter to a new post. But I can’t for the life of me figure out this “Zed” thing. Can someone please explain?
PhysioProf @ 125
In the old version of the blog software, the comment number adjacent to the first comment in a thread would be “Zero”.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!