America’s media are following President Musharraf’s “emergency” suspension of Pakistan’s Constitution, Supreme Court and elections, asking what it means for America’s war on terror. After watching the military arrest hundreds of lawyers, jurists, journalists and opposition political leaders, our editorial boards and columnists seem to agree that the Bush Administration’s policies in that region are in a complete shambles. But what do we do now?
Bush’s support for democracy has been proved a sham, while support for repressive regimes is once again accepted as an unavoidable reality. As we heard in Iraq, there is a chorus lamenting that “there are no good options” in Pakistan, and to drive that home, we are reminded how deeply embedded the Army is in every aspect of Pakistan’s society.
There is widespread agreement that the Bush/Cheney policies have failed to get Musharraf’s military to deal effectively with al-Qaeda and Taliban threats to Afghanistan (never mind the potential extremist threat to Pakistan), while also failing to convince Musharraf or the military to support Pakistan’s return to democracy and civilian rule. Nevertheless, experts tell us “we need Musharraf more than he needs us” to fight our war on terror. So it seems we have no choice but to continue spending billions of dollars propping up his military dictatorship, even as he crushes democratic institutions, silences the press and jails opposition leaders. Our war on terror dictates this.
After a brief flirtation with the notion that promoting freedom and democracy is a long-run antidote to terrorism, the White House has now returned to the more familiar ground of sacrificing democratic principles and institutions in order to keep us safe. The pattern is familiar; we saw it in Tuesday’s Mukasey confirmation vote, in votes on FISA and the MCA. The Administration can readily buy this in Pakistan, because it has been selling the same policy at home.
Weakening the institutions of democracy and intimidating political opponents — justified as necessary to fight terrorism — have been the Bush/Cheney regime’s principal domestic policy agenda for six years. We’ve seen that agenda executed through a relentless assault on the US Constitution and the rule of law, trampling the Bill of Rights, sabotaging civil/voting rights statutes, obliterating checks and balances and executive accountability, politicizing the justice system, imposing massive secrecy and conducting unprecedented spying on US citizens.
The result has been an attack on American democracy far more serious and damaging than anything that could possibly have been mounted by religious extremists holed up in Afghanistan or Pakistan. There is no doubt our democracy is under assault, but the principal threat is not from al Qaeda or the “Islamofascists” but rather the fear that grips men like Joe Lieberman.
Nothing General Musharraf is doing to Pakistan is morally different from what Bush and Cheney have been doing, piece by piece, to America’s democratic principles and institutions. At best, we are dealing with matters of degree but not of kind. And the solutions to both regimes are similar.
If we want to save our democracy, let alone Pakistan’s, we’re going to have to transform the way we think about terrorism. The war on terrorism is a fraud. The Administration has worked tirelessly to convince Americans to believe they must give up their democratic values to fight terrorism, but from 9/11 forward, Bush has gotten it backwards. Instead, we have to give up our fear of terrorism to preserve our democratic values. Protect the Constitution and the rule of law, defend democratic values and institutions here, and provide an inspiration and support for those who struggle for them elsewhere.
As for Pakistan, realpolitik dictates that we begin again to train Musharrah’s officer corps, to make them more amenable to Western-style democracy, but perhaps it makes more sense to send our Justice Department lawyers there to learn how to defend an independent judiciary and the rule of law. We need our own long march not from Lahore to Islamabad, but from Philadelphia to Washington.
It is a monumental misconception to believe we need Musharraf to defend our liberties. We need only the courage, vigilance and determination to defend them here. The Pakistanis who are struggling for their democracy already understand this truth. America should let them — and Musharraf — know we’re with them.
More on this, see Juan Cole at Salon; Andrew Bacevich’s LA Times op-ed; Benazir Bhutto op ed in NYT; WaPo editorial; more from Scott Horton.
America’s Liberty Bell; Photo by Zesmerelda, via flicker
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Good morning!
Spot on, Scarecrow. Thanks.
So true, scarecrow. This country has gone nuts. But egregious brings us hope this morning with the election in Virginia. Hope that is a sign of what’s to come nationally. EG!!
Good morning Scarecrow
Congrats to egregious and fellow Virginia firepups for their big win yesterday
i’m sure negroponte (mr. death squads) will explain it all to us today.
2 pm – House Foreign Affairs
Oversight Hearing: Democracy, Authoritarianism, and Terrorism in Contemporary Pakistan
Witness: John Negroponte, Deputy Secretary of State, U.S. Department of State
And selise had a brilliant suggestion on the Mukasey/waterboarding issue. A Sense of the Senate Resolution stating that torture is illegal/unconstitutional, always has been, and always will be.
Should we be making calls to that effect today?
Bush never wanted to spread Democracy. This was just one of his excuses for invading Iraq, mostly offered after the invasion. Now, it’s apparently one of the Neo-Con’s vision for the world, but don’t believe it for a second. Neo-Con policy, exemplified by Bush who followed it to a tee, alienates populations as it promotes Democracy. Why would we want a Democracy in a country where everyone in that country hates us? Bush goes around making the world hate us, and then wonders why leaders in Democratic countries, don’t agree with the US. Is it just Bush’s incompetence, like the Neo-Cons suggest now? Or is it the policy itself?
Good Morning Scarecrow!
what’s the worry, Pakistan only has nukes, missiles, and radical fundamentalists
A blast from the past:
GWB, Jamuary 20, 2005
For his farewell address, Bush might as well quote Emily Litella: “Oh . . . That’s very different . . . Never mind.”
Good morning, Scarecrow!
Compelling analysis. This deserves a wide audience.
How to Spotlight this post
Loo Hoo. @ 6
i’m pretty sure i didn’t come up with that idea on my own…. don’t remember where i saw it, but it appealed to me – of course, i don’t think the dems would pass it (see mca vote). :(
Peterr @ 9,
Good catch.
Classic passive-aggressive – say one thing while planning and doing another. Bush didn’t mean it when he said it.
selise @ 11
So Bush can veto it and call Democrats weak on terror? I don’t think they’ll be any support for it, as much as I agree with it.
George Simian @ 7
via b real:
I’m more interested in whether Mukasey will enforce some of these subpoenas that Gonzo ignored or accepted EP on. What about those emails from the RNC that got handed to the DOJ instead of turned over to Congress, for example? Are contempt citations going to be enforced?
Well, when you put it all together like that, it sounds bad.
Spotlight!
George Simian @ 19
I don’t think sense of the Senate resolutions are subject to presidential veto. Someone here made that claim yesterday.
I don’t think there’s a chance in Hell of al Qaeda taking over Pakistan.
As the Anbar Sunnis have proven in 2007, very few people want to live in a 7th century Taliban-lifestyle.
Bush had 70% of Fallujah destroyed and those people STILL hate Al Q more than the U.S.
egregious @ 10
Good morning, Egreg – great news on VA – esp. Northern VA – I have a sister in Vienna; perhaps we could meet up some time.
Musharref, the Army Leader we know, is far better than the Muslim militants in Pakistan or Bhutto who simply represents corrupt pro-Muslim factions who will sell us out tomorrow. I take Musharref.
George Simian @ 15
Absolutely no chance on any of the above.
The water boarding issue was the litmus test, and he failed miserably (guided by Darth’s office, no doubt).
He’s Gonzo with a more substantive resume.
Not to be missed. Even the media follow what Barnett R. Rubin blogs on the matter.
Hear, Hear!!!
WOW that was good.
Thank you
Juan Cole has an excellent piece over at Salon that explains how we need Musharraf because much of the supplies for our occupation of Afghanistan go through Pakistan. With all the “front runner” Democratic presidential candidates saying we should increase our forces in Afghanistan, not reduce them, I’m afraid the long-suffering people of Pakistan will have to deal with military dictatorship for the foreseeable future.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/f…..musharraf/
the same reasoning for not recognizing the holocaust in Armenia was to protect our troop supply routes through turkey
ahh yes the situational ethics of the goopers
if you are a useful tool -then you can be a horrible dictator
Ruffian @ 23
I’ll second that!
George Simian @ 15
Ya think?
My ’sources’ tell me that
Mukasey will also be screening footage of Woodstock for members of the Pakistani intelligence services as we ‘usher’ in the Age of Aquarius…….from Islamabad to San Francisco the bombers are turning into butterflies above our nations….
katherine Graham Cracker @ 26
Mmm, if memory serves, that’s been US foreign policy for about 100 years…
katherine Graham Cracker @ 25
“a useful tool” in service of immoral acts is a kind of “useful” in need of scare quotes, imo.
From the post:
One good step in this transformation was suggested by Bob Harris in his book Who Hates Whom: Well-Armed Fanatics, Intractable Conflicts, and Various Things Blowing Up A Woefully Incomplete Guide. In his FDL book salon visit here a couple of weeks ago, Jane quoted this passage from the opening chapter:
When you engage in lazy and dangerous rhetoric and perpetuate a lazy and dangerous military adventure, fraud is the number one result.
(Oh, and one more thing: beware the SCVP!)
Toby Wollin @ 28
ahh, but that was only something we were forced to do in order to protect the world from the soviet union.
the curtain of our lies is, i hope, being drawn aside.
selise @ 5
thanks for the heads up Selise.
Good morning everyone. If you tuned in early, refresh. I changed the picture.
It’s hard to determine the relative contribution of incompetence and malevolence to the foreign and domestic policies pursued by this government. In our worst nightmares of December, 2000 (which were many) I don’t think any of us believed that a handful of nuts could ruin America in so short a time. We believed that the underlying competence of the Federal bureaucracy and what we supposed would be the negative feedback mechanism of a free press would limit the extent of the damage. Silly us!
The press has turned out to be a weak reed. Reporting is focused solely on power, which is pure politics, while reporting honestly on policy is considered to be ‘too political.’ Nothing matters except who is going up and who is coming down. As to the American public, the majority seem to have lost interest in self-government. This is the biggest loss, and it is hard to see how it can be regained. If people are not ready to govern themselves, someone else will always be ready to do the job for them.
Incompetence or malevolence? We report. You decide. My judgement is that it’s mostly sheer incompetence.
George Simian @ 7
With all due respect, “Bush” doesn’t want anything that requires deep thought and vision.
Riding his bike and clearing brush is about it.
No, this is Darth’s administration and we should always address it as such.
Elliott @ 8
So do we.
See the Bacevich op ed, link at bottom, where he suggests several reforms, one of which is to relearn the principles of containment.
Sense of the Senate. wiki
I don’t see anything about whether it can be vetoed.
Shrub’s deep thoughts
Why does Laura’s butt look bigger in pants suits then that horrible Hillary
ot – excellent (even more than usual) democracy now! this morning. all about the sjc approval of mukasey yesterday. good clips from the hearing followed by naomi klein (the shock doctrine) to explain what this means for us.
p.s. steven grey was on democracy now! yesterday. and on monday a victim of torture (from the algerian war) was interviewed.
g’morning scarecrow
let me make a point;
you are going under the stretched opinion that the administration WANTS stability in pakistan, that they WANT a democracy
this is polar oposite of the evidence before us, we know as a fact the administration WANTS to destabalize the entire middle east, NOT just Iraq, NOT just Iran.
they want continuous war, they want continuous strife
I have NO doubt in my mind cheney was the person that adviseed mushariff to suspend his constitution
this is a trial balloon, make no mistake about that, this is a test case
they want to prepare for what will happen in the states when they make the move and that’s what this is all about
mushariff doesn’t want to give up power, cheney doesn’t want to give up power
we also know as a fact mushariff gets his marching orders from cheney
see a pattern here?
nown to go off topic a little bit, a caller made a great point on the richard bay show today (I never liked on tv but that was before he showed me a pretty good progressive mind)
anyway the caller made the great point;
we don’t really jail crimminals to teach them a lesson or to get retribution, we jail them to show there are prices to pay for what we do against society and that keeps others from committing the same crime.
THAT is the real reason we need to impeach the criminals in office that deliberately set us on a course of war with countries they knew with no doubt posed no threat
these criminals have highjacked the armed forces of the united states so they can steal from planet earth
it is uncredibly bizzare that ANYONE in office does not see fit to bring these criminals to the bar of justice
I have a long drive ahead, can’t stay long
so;
HELLO ALL FIREDOGS!!!
Knut Wicksell @ 33
Respectfully disagree with the last paragraph.
I believe incompetence is what they hide behind, since malevolence is much more sinister.
Loo Hoo. @ 37
It can’t be vetoed, because it’s not a law that needs the President’s signature. It is what it says it is: a sense of the thinking of the US Senate at that given moment.
As a result, of course, it also has next to no status in law.
Knut Wicksell @ 34
I’ve always avoided the more provocative conspiracy theories because I was convinced stupidity and ignorance (or incompetence) could explain most of what happens. But there is a sizeable contribution from what I call “willful ignorance.”
Peterr @ 42
no status at all. but it might make it harder for mukasey to pretend that waterboarding is not torture.
Scarecrow @ 43
I tend to agree.
Though I must admit, Naomi Klein’s well-documented and researched “Shock Doctrine” has me thinking a great deal. Her Book Salon discussion on the 18th ought to really be something.
LibertyLee @ 21
You better change your moniker to RepressiveLee. Obviously, you do not believe in the principle of Liberty.
quick link before I go
the real question is ;
WHAT TOOK SO LONG?
this president has surpassed nixon in depravity exponentially, I am totally surprised it took so long
Just popping in: the go to guy on the web for all things Pakistani, and a great blogger in his own right is the esteemed Mash at http://www.docstrangelove.com/.
An American Muslim and Patriot, writes well and snarkily.. Highly recommended…Love and peace pups. I go stain another wretched log cabin…later…
Peterr @ 45
incompetence by large segments of government does not preclude active malevolence by others.
President Bush speaks often about his presidential duty to defend the American people. But his job description is defending the U.S. Constitution, nowhere does it mention “defending the American people.” Furthermore, as Benjamin Franklin pointed out: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Clearly President Bush thinks that Americans are exactly such cowards. And indeed, he is providing us with neither.
when did hypothesizing active malevolence become something to be shamed and silenced instead of tested by the evidence and critical thinking?
i really hate that we self-censor the ideas we allow ourself to consider.
Loo Hoo. @ 6
Yes! Yes! Yes!
This has several advantages over an actual law…because
a) it acknowledges the priority and precedent of already established law. Thus it can create no new law thyat would allow ex post facto protections for past torture to kick in. Anyone that has committed or ordered torture could still be prosecuted.
b) It need not be approved by Bush, nor can it be vetoed. It doesn’t need a veto-proof majority to pass.
c) The sole method that the Republicans would have to delay it would be to filibuster it. They would have to muster 40 votes to do this, which is achievable. But there may not be enthusiasm amongst the Republican rank-and-file since they would have to express their rationales as to why they DIDN’T THINK waterboarding was torture. Almost 70% of the public thinks waterboarding is torture. And to out-and-out defend the technique on the floor exoses them politically to their constituents if they make particularly stupid or inhumane statements while they are compelled to defend this “repugnant” technique.
d) Bush could issue no signing-statement. He would have nothing to sign.
e) It would be difficult for Schumer and Feinstein to oppose such a sense of Senate resolution as they have said that they were willing to push a law. So a simple Resolution should be a cinch.
f) Part of the sense of the Senate could be a call for Mukasey to review the listed laws and make a statement regarding his view on whether waterboarding, repeated temperature extremes, methods to induce hypothermia, sleep deprivation, extreme stress positions causing mental and physical duress, etc. are torture under already existing Statutes and case-law.
Very estute blog, scarecrow. It shows that we’re in deep dodo because the boy king likes those shiney medals that Musharraf wears. Like we need ‘Mo sheriff”
ww @ 23
Thanks, ww. I meant to include that Horton link.
Peterr @ 42
But wouldn’t it keep war crimes on the table?
Thank you cinnamonape!
Selise,
At what time do you receive DemocracyNow!? We get it at 9am in nyc on WBAI.
o/t breaking news…
Pat Robertson endorses Guiliani.
No freakin’ surprise there.
George Simian @ 7
How true! Recall that Bush repeatedly said in the 2000 debates with Gore that he opposed the use of US forces for ‘nation-building’. That was even called the “Rice-Bush” doctrine.bUt that was before 9/11.
The real question is not whether Musharraf can pull it off. He already has using American weapons and supplies which he will continue to get. The real question is whether it can happen here in the good old US of A. Having an inclination to paranoia, I think it can which means we must address the phenomenon of soldiers whose interests should be with democracy, putting their countrymen in the slam or worse. Stated another way-can a few million soldiers and Blackwater contractors keep three hundred fifty million people in line? Fraid so.
Does anyone know of internet sites to meet soldiers and police to discuss whether they obey orders to stiffle dissent? Would this questioning of authority be illegal? What do we do should it happen here? I don’t see our lawyers hitting the streets as they did in Pakistan.
Loo Hoo. @ 55
Not directly. War crimes are war crimes, regardless of whether the Senate passes a resolution about them. At best, it might help express the notion that Bush does not speak for the entire US on this, despite the fact that his office has no corners.
SanderO @ 57
i stream it from their website at 8am, or from wbai at 9, or listen by podcast later. the important thing is not to miss it. *g*
cinnamonape @ 51
With this administration you’ll need garlic, a cross, and a stake.
A pair of white gloves across the face won’t get it done.
selise @ 51
I’m not disagreeing with any such hypothesis. I just think the problems are 95% stupidity/ignorance/incompetence. That leaves 5% for malevolence . . .which can cause 95% of the damage. All the figures are a guess.
diogenes @ 58
Link please?
Actually, this is a big freakin’ surprise, given Robertson’s huge anti-abortion, anti-divorce mentality. It must be giving Romney and Huckabee fits.
Scarecrow, thanks for this love song to democracy you’ve sung this morning. It feels good to feel patriotic.
Peterr @ 61
the table of our national discussion (such as it is).
George Simian @ 13
Bush can’t touch a “Sense of the Senate Resolution”…it’s immune from veto and signing statements. It’s not a law itself but bringing forth the INTENT in the Senate of what pre-existing laws already state.
cinnamonape @ 68
We can also package the MCA, FISA bills and recent confirmation votes into a “Nonsense of the Senate” Resolution.
Angry Black Bitch went after this mess in Pakistan as well yesterday:
That about says it.
Pat Robertson is the medicine man
he is perfect for Rudi who he has been pimping for weeks
they are both frauds
Scarecrow @ 64
i was referring to this statement:
1) how can you conclude it’s 95% stupidity if you’ve already decided not to consider any malevolence other than “willful ignorance”?
2) why use the term “conspiracy theories” in a way that is seen as dismissive of a subset of the available hypotheses?
i’m not objecting to your conclusions… but i do take issue with what i think is your argument in support of them.
selise @ 62
selise -
Does it appear to you that Amy’s Bell’s palsy is improving slightly? Seems a little less eye movement and increased mouth control. I admire her on so many levels, not the least her courage in coming forward into the light with the disorder (or whatever the correct term is for Bell’s).
To call these people incompetent is to give them a pass on all the chaos they have caused here and abroad.
Nothing happening in the middle east is by accident; in fact a strong case can be made they are very competent at achiveing the results they wanted.
Please remember nothing drives up oil prices like war in the middle east. These are former oil executives in the white house.
We may see $100 per barrel as soon as today, and analysts will tell you $40 of that is from the relentless warmongering being served up.
Scarecrow @ 69
thank you! first time i’ve laughed since the vote yesterday. a good medicine for frustration, disgust and lack of sleep.
Bush is opposed to an independent judiciary.
He believes in one thing: the power of the Executive Branch. Dick Cheney schooled him in this philosophy. He took to it like a fly to shit because he’s a power-hungry asshole. He does not care about good governance. He cares about party and power. Period.
He can’t stand “activist” judges (i.e., those who oppose his will).
Musharraf and Bush have a lot in common.
selise @ 72
I’m with you, Selise. I think we’ve been conditioned to sneer at conspiracy theories. A dangerous thing, imo. Looks like the biggest one out there (the neo-cons are out to dominate the world) is one that we have proof after proof for.
Bush accuses Dems of being weak on terror, when in actuality, Dems are weak on Bush.
selise @ 75
Yes, I agree – I think the Rx for all of us is one really funny film a week, preferably accompanied by one’s sweetie, a glass of very good wine and a little something to eat. I nominate “Some Like it Hot” or “Young Frankenstein”.
Diane @ 79
What Bush and Cheney have done so successfully is to turn “terror” into this perception in the public’s mind that THIS is the monster under the bed..when, in actuality, the monster under the bed — is Bush and Cheney.
CalGeorge @ 76
I think Bush is jealous of him because Musharraf gets to wear a uniform, and I’m not really kidding so much either
selise @ 44
Well except for the fact that the intent of Congress can be useful in guiding judges as to the meaning of words in the Statute. Of course, that would be the intent at the time period the original legislation was actually passed.
In addition, Schumer and DiFi both said that they would insist that Mukasey give his legal opinion once he was confirmed. If he doesn’t then it will be an albatross hanging around their necks.
Diane @ 78
Isn’t that the same thing? Bush=terror?
Waccamaw @ 73
a little bit. here’s amy in her own words.
i think she’s great too… from her reporting in east timor to her books, here support of community radio and especially for democracy now! – which i think is the best, by far, national daily news program.
Peterr @ 65
From the WaPo0’s The Fix
cinnamonape @ 82 –
you make the argument much better than i do… and you’ve convinced me more than i had convinced myself.
selise @ 72
You’ve convinced me, Selise. I think you’re out to get me today!
Thank you Scarecrow. Well said.
When will America realize that compromising your principles ALWAYS leads to long-term problems even if it is out of a seeming short-term necessity.
Think of all the democratic governments we helped topple during the Cold War in the name of fighting Communism.
Communism is pretty much gone now, but we’re being bitten by the chaos and instability caused by our actions.
We need to reject tyranny and support democracy across the board. Instead of threatening Iran, we need to recognize it’s fledgling democracy and encourage the growth of that democracy at the same time we encourage the increase of freedom in that state.
Instead of propping up the military dictator Musharref, we need to refuse to support anti-democratic forces even when short-term gains seem to make it the “sensible” thing to do.
The world isn’t all black and white, but I think there are certain principles on which we should be inflexible.
selise @ 72
The “Federalist Society” is celebrating its 25th year of conspiring to subvert the
American Judiciary and the Rule of law. They don’t try to hide; they are proud of their work.
Toby, and now we have Guiliani waiting in the wings – how much of this shit can the R’s shove down the throats of Americans?
Diane @ 80
Isn’t that the exact same thing?
So for the first time in his presidency he’s said something that is completely true.
STTP in Ohio @ 74
i agree with this.
but i don’t think the evidence supports this conclusion.
p.s. sorry, but since i gave scarecrow such a hard time i thought it only fair to spread it around.
what i really should do is to try to get some sleep. my apologies to all if i’ve been too argumentative this morning.
Peterr @ 65
With all of the “big name” fundies; in the end it’s about the money. They know any Republican will keep the $ billions pouring in to support their poisonous theology.
Scarecrow @ 87
so sorry, scarecrow.
i will go back to bed now, and try to get up on the right side next time.
… special request to all firepups: please be extra nice to scarecrow to make up for me being a grump. thank you!
selise @ 84
Bell’s Palsy is not temporary for everyone – Nancy Zieman(who if you are into sewing is a famous person who has her own business, Nancy’s Notions – if you are not into sewing, this is meaningless)has had this for at least 20 years. The one thing you can tell is that she has trained herself to smile in a much more naturalistic way over the years and looks fairly comfortable now.
Toby Wollin @ 95
Perhaps the best known case of it not going away is Ralph Nader.
Toby Wollin @ 95
I never knew that about Nancy, wondered about her tho. thanks
Diane @ 90
I think Rudy is under the bed with Bush and Cheney – he can’t get into the closet – Larry and his buddies are in there.*g*
Steve-AR @ 94
You are absolutely right, but many of their followers truly believe their message. Maybe this support will create enough cognitive dissonance in the zombies who follow Roberts to force them to start thinking a little bit.
Why is Steny Hoyer trying so hard to kill HR 333? The answer may surprise you…
http://willyloman.wordpress.co…../#more-185
…or then again, maybe it won’t.
Toby, under the bed, isn’t that where they kept the piss pots in days gone by? Piss on em.
Stock market opened 115 points down immediately; dollar is almost at $1.50 to the Euro; oil is approaching $100/bbl. The economy is just going swell! NOT!
SufiLizard @ 99
If spewing hate and calling it Christianity doesn’t create cognitive dissonance, I don’t think any thing will. (Only a small amount of snark in this comment.)
Diane @ 101
I remember them under the bed at the GM’s house, so those days didn’t “gone by” that long ago.
Steve-AR @ 104
I understand what you’re saying, but it seems there has to be some level at which the cognitive dissonance will reach a critical mass and make their heads explode (figuratively of course).
Scarecrow @ 43
Never avoid thinking about anything.
selise @ 94
If this is your “grump” we’re in great shape. As Digby often says, “there’s a reason we’re all so angry at the Republicans,” and it’s not because we’re just grumpy or DFHs.
Kathryn in MA @ 106
Aha, now there’s a conspiracy between Selise and Kathryn! Yikes!
Toby -
Thanks for that additional info wrt Nancy; I always wondered why she tends to keep the left side of her face turned from the camera. How much better the way Amy handles it….damn the torpedos – full face on.
Peterr @ 65
Could it be related to this:
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2…..be,00.html
?
Christy has a new thread for us.
SufiLizard @ 105
My prediction; when the economy goes into the shitter, the number of fundies will increase and they will form the core of a “new populism”.
selise @ 44
Morning, all (where’s that coffee??)!
Well it (the resolution, not the coffee) would certainly make it harder for Congress to later claim it didn’t know what torture was…
*sigh*
New thread from Christy.
The Debt
Waccamaw @ 109
A lot has changed about how we feel, personally and publicly, about medical/physical stuff.
My mom had multi-infarct dementia. The way she behaved, 100 years ago, she’d have been the “crazy lady in the attic”. Two years ago, we were keeping her at home, trying to keep her safe, while she was seeing aliens coming out of the walls and getting up every hour on the hour at night to take a shower, change her clothes and make herself breakfast. Crazy lady meets dementia.
When this happened to Nancy, out there in the wilds of Wisconsin, I’m sure the attitude about facial paralysis was different than it is now. But Nancy looks a lot more comfortable in her photographs now – both sides of her mouth seem pretty well in alignment.
Nancy Zieman (mentioned by Toby Wollin at 95) has had Bell’s Palsy since she was about 2, and her own television show since 1982. If you do a google search, you will find she is quite a busy lady.
OT completely, but maybe the thin edge of the wedge:
Congress Intends to Override Bush’s Water Resources Veto.
There’s too much talk about “Democracy” here. Discounting the early Greeks who invented the word, but only invested male land owners, and the Swiss who actually do have a democracy and even invested women a few years ago (Whodathunkit?), but have such a small country that it’s hard to get a statistical universe, there isn’t one country in the world that espouses it, nor has there ever been. Too many people are hiding behind a virtually meaningless word. “Democracy is good!” Socialism is bad!” Yet every country in the so-called modern world hangs somewhere between those two poles. (Think Social Security.)
Two quotes from the late Robert Heinlein, “Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How’s that again? I missed something.” “Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let’s play that over again, too. Who decides?” (c)1973 Robert Heinlein
He hit the nail on the head. Let’s stop the democracy jargon and ask rather are the people doing well in their lives? Are they repressed? Are they free to follow their hearts? That requires a bit of research, so it won’t become popular very soon. It’s too easy to hide behind buzzwords whether or not they mean anything. I’m not defending General Musharraf, I don’t know his country and its situation well enough to form an opinion. I will not, however, dismiss it as generally repressive without more information. At first glance he seems to be an asshole, but he, like Atatürk a century ago, has managed to keep the militant religious zealots at bay, no easy task. Of course, Atatürk was also the one who murdered so many Armenians just as we have murdered so many Iraqis. Are there any good guys? Definitely not because of their buzzwords. Black and white in this sense don’t exist. There are endless shades of gray out there.
Steve Bohn @ 117
OK, let’s stop the jargon. Are the Pakaistanis doing well in their lives? Given the pictures and videos of beatings administered by Musharref’s thugs, I’d doubt it. I’d say that only allowing the state run media voice to be heard qualifies as repression. It sounds to me like you would not be upset to see the same type activities implemented here in the US. So I ask your question: Who decides? For myself, I would decide and I don’t need to have George Bush or Dick Cheney or President Musharraf of Pakistan or the Myanmar dictators or anyone else telling me what I can or cannot say or see or do.
You see Steve, we have these thing called a Constitution and a Republic that allows us to be as stupid or as wise as we can be. And as uncomfortable as it may have made Mr Heinlein to have to not be the man in charge but have to deal with the great unwashed, it beats the sh*t out of the alternatives you are proposing.
.02
I stopped reading Heinlein after High School when I realized that while I may not have reached his intellectual level, I had passed his emotional maturity and was interrested in women as humans.
As a response to dakine01’s post #118, I’ll first say that I proposed no alternative. I’ll reiterate that I don’t know enough about the situation in Pakistan to comment on it. Not only the right wing mass media have been cherry picking the footage we see. Anyone with an agenda does that, and this website is no exception. As much as I appreciate Firedog Lake (I visit every day), I try to put it in perspective too. I also read the NY Times, Al Jazeera, Pravda and Le Monde (although not daily). they all have a different slant on what is essentially the same information. I won’t say that I’m aware of what’s really going on, but at least I’m trying to fill the gaps.
What is required of a citizen in a democracy is a willingness to do this searching, so that one can make informed decisions. That is your responsibility. Otherwise you leave it to the politicians, and that “democracy” and Constitution aren’t worth toilet paper. Case in point is the systematic shredding of that brilliant document since at least the late 1940s. Before getting angry and talking down to me, perhaps it would be wise to throw away those meaningless words (the words, not the concepts behind them), and see what has been done and is still being done in their name.
Steve Bohn @ 117
Zeno posed the conundrum that if you shoot an arrow at a target it goes half way, then half way again and again so that it never reaches the target. Abraham Robinson sort of solved it by saying black and white differ in kind, not degree, from gray. The middle, gray, is infinitely large with all sorts of distinctions. So when you talk about democracy, you either are for it (without reservation) or against it (black or white) or you see degrees of democracy, presumably dependent on your opinion of the ability of the people to accomodate it.
It seems simplistic, but I avoid gray. If the issue is whether the end justifies the means, I say “No” never, rather than engage in discussion of circumstances justifying bad means to attain a good end.
To ask if the people are doing well in their lives-are they repressed, strike me as foolish questions especially when you see lawyers being tear gassed and hauled away in vans.
Some justified Mussolini, the late Italian dictator, by saying he made the trains run on time. How any American, especially one who may believe we do God’s work spreading democracy, can justify even for a moment any coup is beyond me. The irony is Musharaaf most likely won’t be able to make it stick. Anti U.S. sentiment runs pretty deep in Pakistan. If you don’t believe me read “The Reluctant Fundamentalist”, a very good novel whose author’s name I do not remember.
Scarecrow @ 107
but it’s not your fault i’m pissed off at both the republican and the democratic political leaders… or that i’m exhausted from lack of sleep. will try to do better tommorrow.
selise – you hanging around a bit?
I have a tech update for you…
This is just another part of the most bizarre f#@! ups in American foreign policy imaginable.
Under the control of not only the Right but with the aid of narrow-minded, racist, pocket driven Democrats, most of whom care little for the suffering of others and feel no need to travel to know what’s really going on in the rest of the world, this group thinks only to immediate personal gains -and never toward a future vision.
Have you heard anything much -here- about the dictatorial policies of India?? Well you better start. This is another ‘ally’ with some serious problems in the ‘democracy’ category.
Not to mention they take Senator Inhofe’s position on climate change. http://www.guardian.co.uk/indi…..51,00.html
Congress and the media need to wake up -see the world as a whole – and quit protecting countries like India, Israel, Saudi Arabia etc..
India is in almost exactly the same position as China, with massive humanitarian problems and a negligent monarchy. Not to mention many of their products have lead in them as well.
There’s big trouble brewing there, as there was once before -and it has just as much chance of exploding as Pakistan is now doing.
14 months more of this gang at the helm -SHIT!
newtonusr @ 123
sorry for the belated response… will check back here for you and/or the current thread…
cool. rethinking your decision to put huge drive in iMac…
All Mac drives are now SATA, not ATA like the one you are considering. When the iMac bails, the drive won’t go in a future machine…
newtonusr @ 126
i was reading through a take apart guide this afternoon and having second thoughts too! *g*
Thanks, Scarecrow. Good words.
I like your idea of the Long March from Philadelphia to DC. Could be a tool we’ll have to utilize in the not-too-distant future, along with General Strike to brings these born again cretins to their knees. I think we should begin to develop these as our own In Case of Emergency: March on Washington (weapons of peace).
Let’s discuss it more often. Raise the subject in all of your threads if nec.
best,
Owen
on the other hand – i’m thinking of using the 160 i already have – if i replace it with a 500 in the lacie d2 enclosure. that hd is already several years old (5?). if it and my imac can last another year, that would be pretty good for both of them.
on my third hand… i’m really tempted to just get the lacie 1T .. and then decide later if i want to do the hd swap… (except that you cautioned about the dual drive configuration).
sigh. i went through this last time (the indecision of not knowing enough to make a good decision) and finally said “f*** it” and just bought the maxtor… which seems fine, except for the inconvenient form factor.
Insightful commentary, Scarecrow.
One distinction to make – Weakening democratic institutions and intimidating political opponents” are not the agenda of our pseudoleaders, rather they are two of the foundation principles upon which they build their agenda of distortion and misdirection that enables them to get us involved in ridiculously misdguided actions such as the Iraq “war” which is a manifestation of the “terra” 24/7 smokescreen.
MY POST:
It is ridiculous that America is caught playing “world police” yet again. The world can easily be compared to a country with several states. This country would also have a government ruling it, but this does not seem to be the case with the world. One might argue that it is a country made up of sovereign states, but when has state sovereignty ever worked? The U.S. keeps becoming the default for fixing other countries’ problems. Does no one understand we are swamped right now? Does no one understand that the world does not need the U.S. playing world police? That what it does need a world government, with representation from every country, even the ones that have “done wrong,” so that effective decisions can be made concerning other countries and issues of world politics. This way the U.S. can start to act like its own problems actually exist and stop pretending they don’t exist in the light of other countries’ problems. This also makes sure that the work of governing the world and preventing bad things from happening in places like Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Darfur, North Korea and Myanmar, among many more.