NOTE: Please call the Senate Judiciary Committee members today. Tomorrow they begin the FISA bill mark-up, and a number of folks are leaning away from telecom immunity. Let’s make certain they keep going in that direction, shall we?
Earlier in the week, I was on a media call with the ACLU, EFF and others involved in the FISA litigation with AT&T, Verizon and other telecoms. There were a number of major news service reporters on the call as well, a number of them reporters who have been covering this story for quite some time.
And, frankly, I was appalled at the utter lack of understanding of what is contained in the FISA law in terms of requirements and criminal sanctions for violations, warrant and subpoena issues. And by the paucity of background on the legal process which has always required that lawful warrants be issued, and that said warrants be signed off by a third-party review from a judge to determine whether the request is both lawful and necessary.
These folks were covering all the he said/she said political angles on the legislation without having any real background in legal process or what the FISA law actually requires. It was either astonishingly bad preparation, laziness or outright incomprehension. No idea which.
In any case, here are some basics:
– Lawyers are trained, first and foremost, to make certain they do incredibly detailed CYA, in writing if at all possible, for their clients. So, here is a question I’d like to see answered: was there indemnification in writing given to these telecom companies by the Bush Administration, by then WH counsel Alberto Gonzales, or anyone else at the time this warrantless domestic spying program began? Because, as Marcy points out, then AG Ashcroft wasn’t yet read into the program and could not, therefore, have signed off on an outside-FISA procedure, as required by law.
Section 1802.
(a) (1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that—
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at—
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title;
(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and
if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.
(2) An electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection may be conducted only in accordance with the Attorney General’s certification and the minimization procedures adopted by him. The Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under the provisions of section 1808 (a) of this title. (emphasis mine)
Wired has more on Ashcroft as well. Has there been such a report filed to the FISA court and/or the Senate and House Intel Committees as required by law? And, by the way, the way that I read the FISA criminal penalties section, said WH-issued “written indemnification” wouldn’t be worth anything because only “lawful” authorization counts. And, despite whatever idiocy the unilateral executive crowd wants to front out, the legal requirements are spelled out quite plainly here and do not allow for executive fiat on the fly. Ooopsie on the lawyering there, kids.
– The FISA laws have a provision expressly written into the law authorizing unfettered surveillance without having to resort to court warrants or other legal requirements that is not to exceed 15 days in time of war. We are and have been well beyond that for ages and, since it requires a legal declaration of war in the legislation, this provision has never been, strictly speaking anyway, truly applicable. Double ooopsie.
– There is also provision expressly written by Congress for civil liability for breaching the legal requirements of the FISA laws. It includes:
Section 1810.
An aggrieved person, other than a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a) or (b)(1)(A) of this title, respectively, who has been subjected to an electronic surveillance or about whom information obtained by electronic surveillance of such person has been disclosed or used in violation of section 1809 of this title shall have a cause of action against any person who committed such violation and shall be entitled to recover—
(a) actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages of $1,000 or $100 per day for each day of violation, whichever is greater;
(b) punitive damages; and
(c) reasonable attorney’s fees and other investigation and litigation costs reasonably incurred.
Why, you might ask, is there express civil liability in the law? Because Congress thought that privacy rights of Americans under the law were so important, and that the laws against domestic spying without a warrant were so equally important, that a very stiff express penalty for violating these was written in as a very strong deterrent for breaking the law. And if Congress goes ahead with the immunity provision in FISA, they’ll basically be saying “eh, it’s okay, spy on Americans all you like without any oversight…we just don’t give a crap about the Constitution any longer.” Wonder why I talk about this issue a lot? Because that sort of attitude is guaranteed to piss off a former prosecutor — the laws and the Constitution apply. Period.
– Allow me to introduce you to the Fourth Amendment:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. (emphasis mine)
Pesky things, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, aren’t they? As I said to Elliott in the prior thread, with regard to why the Bush Administration has been avoiding warrants at all costs:
..it all goes back to the Hoovering aspect of this: when you do not have specific probable cause that you can articulate for individual circumstances, e.g. “We think Bob has been associating with known al qaeda cell X because of the following reasons: blah blah blah.”, the you cannot ask for a particularized warrant as required by law. What they’d have to do is “we would like to spy on 5 million Americans using the internet and use our computer technology to sniff around like an old-timey miner panning for gold nuggets and see if we hit paydirt.”
Not so legal under the Fourth Amendment for spying on Americans, let me tell you. Because the 4th Amendment requires a particularized reason.
We’ve all suspected for a long time that the reason the Bush Administration was avoiding the FISA court like the plague — a court with a history of only denying warrants in fewer than ten whole cases in its history — was because what they have been doing is utterly illegal under the law. The only way we find that out is via Congressional hearings and/or legal process in these suits. And giving the telecoms immunity is a sure way to cut off oversight of the Bush Administration’s illegal activities because they sure as hell haven’t been all that cooperative with Congress, now have they? Gee, I wonder why Dick Cheney spent time strong-arming the Senate Intel committee on this, don’t you? Talk about your motivating factors.
– Laywers for the telecom companies are used to dealing with warrant and other information requests. They get them all the time from state and federal prosecutors. And in my experience, they require everything in writing, with a judge’s signature, and then still sometimes force you to have a subpoena issued and a hearing thereon so that the judge has to order the document or records turnover on the court record to insulate their clients from liability. What gives with the utter lack of doing that here? Hmmmm?
– FYI, judges don’t order preservation of evidence and documents and other extraneous records for kicks. (H/T LHP)
– Do go back and read LHP’s summary on some of the ACLU and EFF litigation on this issue. There are a lot of prosecutorial issues raised in this, including some big “fruit of the poison tree” ones that could sink legitimate terrorism cases that happen to have been brought on evidence gleaned from non-legal machinations. Feeling safer now?
And that’s just for starters. Any questions?
(Photo via goatopolis.)



92 Comments





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1
Got my goggles on, lets go!
Just so it is completely clear, I was on the media call as a member of the media — as in a blogger who was reporting on this issue. Didn’t want there to be any confusion…
epu
What if what the crowd in charge wants to do is slink away with all of these powers and potentially not even pass them to the next President – that sure would setup a crisis.
Imagine if Dwight Eisinhower (frontline & sputnik) had slunk away with spy satallites but not passed them to the next president. Well depending on how this was setup and who did this (private allies) it could happen that at least this crowd keeps their vampiric tap (fireoptic pun intended) into the matrix.
Comey sure showed his true colors with this issue.
I believe that UpChuck Schumer has already worked a deal with the WH where the WH gets full access to all world communication and the Dems in congress get rectal dildos. UpChuck will be penning an Oped in the NYT saying what a great deal it is for the nation.
Christy:
Do you mean the ‘lack of understanding’ by those in the media, even the ones following this for some time?
Hmm, looking at this I am going to need a snorkel too.
Thanks for the post, Christy. Now I’ll read the whole thing. And yes, you’re definitely a member of the media.
Me @ 5..OMG, I have caught the “one-liner” disease.
The only Dem with balls in Dennis K…
My opinion is that the judiciary will cave again.
FDL should support K for prez because, I think,
he supports all our recommendations.
K made Tucker Carlson look like the idiot he is
on yesterday’s show.
The sheer scale of the thing is staggering, innit?
Can a reasonable person point to one thing — one thing — that this Administration has done correctly, by the book, even if it was for the wrong reasons?
I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
It’s likely that the corporate attorneys, whose job it was to cover their employers’ asses, were (like Ashcroft) not read into the program. Conservatives have a great deal of antipathy toward lawyers as “deal wreckers.” And, the Bushies were desperate for a deal.
And don’t forget to stress the fact that the Administration started this before 9/11!!
Pinochio Guiliani just called. He finds this post soooo pre 9/11.
Christy, if you are wishing there were reporters with the legal background, the tenacity, and the writing skills to get this very important story out, look in the mirror, girl. It’s you!
Since the fifteen day review does not apply, I am struggling to recall, isn’t there a forty five day review in regards to this also or am I thinking of something else?
Wordsmith at 6 — Yes.
Christy, do any of the people who were on this call have access to the SJC? I mean a rep from ACLU or anyone who would be raising these issues for questions from the SJC to the telecoms?
Are there staffers or others who you or others who know this stuff work with to try to get the committee up to speed? I mean, most of the SJC should be lawyers. . .I know there is a lot to keep up with, but is this not the job of the staff at least?
“…as required by law…”
The law is what Bu’ush says it is, in his view.
One of the neat-o benefits of all this Bu’ush privatization is that private entities can violate your rights will-nilly and you have no constitutional recourse. You’re left with regular court claims (e.g. contractual and tort), and if Bu’ush can also step on those airhoses, well, point, set, and match.
Old anti- TIA rant here. As relevant today as when I wrote it in 2001.
Bay State Librul @ 10
Good Lard, I didn’t think I could despise Tucker any more than I already do. That interview was awful and DK should be commended for his dignity and presidential smackdowns of this complete clown.
I take major issue with the characterization by Bushies, Bush Dogs, and MSM that this is a “distraction” or what have you and that this is the reason why Congress is so low in approval ratings. Quite the effin’ opposite. I believe we all want more like this please!
How convenient it is for tools like Tucker to say Dems control Congress. I am so sick of obstructionist and obsteperous Republicans and their criminal leaders.
Christy:
I understand if you don’t want to answer this: Was Jeffrey Toobin in on this media call? Dan Abrams?
bg at 17 — The ACLU and EFF have been working both the House and the Senate as much as they can on this issue, so yes, they have access and have been trying to use it for the greater good.
Biodun at 20 — If they were, they didn’t ask any questions, so I can’t say for sure.
Bustednuckles @ 7
snorkel, nuthin’…I’m thinking more like chainsaw and backhoe, myself.
burnspbesq @ 11
Well, Newshour was pushing AIDS relief in Rwanda last night…
Thanks Christy.
Well, I suppose the ACLU does not come with the cash that comes with the telecoms, so great that they are there, but I guess we will see the Dems dance with what brung’em.
I want my party back.
Christy? Indemnification as in MONEY?!
bear with me, this actually is relevant
So a teenage boy calls home at 3:00 a.m.
“Dad, this is Jake.”
“Jake, it’s three in the morning, where are you!?”
“I’m down at the county jail, they’re trying to frame me for first degree murder!”
“WHAT!?!? They can’t do that.”
“Don’t worry dad, I’ve already talked to a lawyer and he thinks we can get the charges reduced down to possession of alcohol by a minor.”
“Phew, thank God. I’ll be down to pick you up soon, son.”
Okay, I’m probably not doing that old joke justice, but it comes to mind when I see the Bush Administration constantly getting away with the most horrendous crimes against our democracy.
Lead with phony murder charge, then the minor possession doesn’t seem so bad.
They just keep piling on one atrocity after another and eventually the public is just desensitized to it.
How many people have commented that they just assume their e-mails and phone calls are being intercepted?
Not that anyone is proposing that it’s okay for this to happen, but the more you hear about this kind of stuff the more people tend to just accept it.
bg @ 26
The party has gone South…
Biodun — And, FWIW, I asked a good portion of this as a question in order to make certain the reporters on the call were made fully aware of a lot of this. I’m just fleshing a lot of it out more fully here because, when I was in DC for the Libby trial, a number of reporters told me they read here at FDL for legal analysis. And I’d rather they went to the original FISA and other laws — so I’m pointing everyone in that direction with this.
I really have very little patience for people not going to the original source material. It is easy to find and not all that difficult to read, frankly.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 22
I think Dan would’ve spoken up. He’s no mouse.
Wordsmith — Indemnification as in potentially offering to pay money, working for immunization, or other promises, yes.
Hello,
I’ve been lurking here for a while, and I want to say that I greatly appreciate the site (even when the topics make me want to yell, scream, and break stuff).
My comment: If it can be proved that the administration used this capability to get dirt on political opponents, then isn’t this literally just Watergate with a 21st century twist? Worse, of course, since they’re not only breaking in to the Democratic party HQ, but everyone’s home as well.
I realize though that the trick is getting them into a courtroom in order to prove it, since their attitude towards legal responsibility for their actions is that of greased hamsters on meth fleeing the Republican Senate cloakroom.
One of the major 800lb gorillas in the FISA debate, is Philbin’s statement to the SJC last week that Only the Executive can Review the Executive’s Programs.
Wouldn’t we all feel better, maybe a lot better, if Bush’s programs – secret or not – were under Judicial Review and Legislative Oversight?
Why would Congress want to ‘ratify’ the BushCo power grab by immunizing the Agents – the for-profit henchpeople – who said ‘Yes’ to BushCo’s self-rationalized and self-policed Programs?
Rather than Immunity for Telcos, why aren’t we talking about Compliance with the Constitution?
Obviously this post has to be Spotlighted
radiofreewill @ 35
Why would the Roman Senate allow themselves to become powerless and largely irrelevant? That’s a good question, but they did it pretty early on in the long history of that Empire.
I’m sorry, but please call the same group that passed Mukasey through. Seriously? DiFi’s gonna suddenly give a shit what her constituents think? My god. Southwick, Mukasey, one more time on her knees and I think she gets another breakfast with W in the honeymoon suite of Air Force 1.
Again, I’m sorry, but my outrage board has burned out.
Any idea who, as a Californian, I should write or call since DiFi could obviously care less?
SteveinNC @ 33
Agreed. The only way we can trip up these lying bastards is in the court system…
Yet, we give the Admin 8 chances on the
Contempt of Congress issue?
It ain’t adding up…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 32
Christy – is this like “hold harmless” or am I totally off base?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 32
As in a legal definition versus what I think indemnification is apparently.
I’ve decided to start asking more questions, especially regarding legal issues brought up here. I’m not an attorney. I also know that every profession has their niche and their own language, and mine is no exception. Terms, phrases or procedures that I view as routine make others panic or their glazed over so I figure it ‘all comes out in the wash’ so ta speak.
Let’s just say for discussion’s sake telecom immunity doesn’t happen.
Do we then get the rapture of watching this crime syndicate of an administration melt down like the witch in the Wizard of Oz?
Or does Darth then go Musharraf on us before the frog marching can begin?
Nasty funk tune from my upcoming CD (seriously):
[1]
BIG BROTHER,
I bet he’s watchin’ you.
Dey’s just one problem,
He don’t know what to do.
Lib’ruls and Quakers,
Got ‘em all right in his sight,
I feel much safer now,
He’s on ‘em day and night.
[2]
BIG BROTHER,
He be surveillin’ me.
Readin’ all my emails,
I gots no privacy.
I called my mother,
He taped the whole damn thing.
Send me to Git’mo, right,
It’ll help ‘em make me sing.
Chorus
BIG BROTHER,
YO!, you can kiss my ass,
BIG BROTHER,
You got no brains, no class.
BIG BROTHER,
Gimme my Constitution back,
What in the world
We think we’re tryin’ to save?
[3]
BIG BROTHER,
We know he’s stalkin’ us.
Can’t find Osama,
But he found my Uncle Gus.
They searched at Rite-Aid,
Found his Viagra pills.
And the credit union
Gave up his VISA bills,
[4]
BIG BROTHER,
Jus’ can’t connect them dots,
Chasin’ ev’ry shadow
The only game he gots.
My Google hist’ry
Won’t help you stop Jihad,
Yo, gumshoe morons,
Why don’t you try Riyadh.
Chorus
BIG BROTHER,
YO!, you can kiss my ass,
BIG BROTHER,
You got no brains, no class.
BIG BROTHER,
Give us our Constitution back,
What in the world
We think we’re tryin’ to save?
Words and Music Copyright © 2006 Robert E. Gladd,
All Rights Reserved.
http://www.bgladd.com
The whole thing is probably too complex for MSM legal reporters to comprehend. They’re too busy at Beltway cocktail and drunken dinner parties that they can’t wrap their minds around it.
Toby at 39 — Potentially — which is why I asked if such assurances were given. Shouldn’t someone be asking that question? Or, better yet, a WHOLE LOT of someones?
I strongly believe that the secrecy will continue so that the democrats will never know exactly what the program WAS. However, the deal is those in power really don’t want to give it up now that it is out there. I think that soon if the Telcoms have not been compensated already, will get giant, billion dollar contracts to be the “private contractors” doing all the spying or “collecting” for the Gov’t. That is why they invested in not only letting the NSA et al in but they supplied special rooms and equipment to do the work, at their cost.
Everything in this Administration is about the Benjamins- You just have to follow the $.
FISA will just be scrapped to preserve this ability despite the constitution, for whoever is in power. What is the alternative for the Dems?
Let the telcoms, close its doors to the gov’t. and sell the access in the private sector?
There is no prohibition in the constitution against private companies. Sure there is civil and maybe some criminal liability, but only if they get caught. The GOP and other power brokers will gladly keep the business going in the private sector. The Gov’t has already set up the system.
Biodun @ 42
Question: is it a requirement for legal reporters to actually BE lawyers?
It’s clear that they are Hoovering up everything in sight and recording it on disk farms somewhere. Now, you’d think that those disk farms would fill up and old conversations would eventually have to be dumped. Not so. Each year or so (actually 18 months), a dollar buys twice as much capacity as the year before. So, there’ll be room to store this years Hoover yield as well as last year’s.
(Obviously, there’s a limit to the how long the half-life a the costs per gigabyte will remain this short, but it has stayed this way for a very long time.)
CHS @ 30:
I asked my question at 20 because Jeffrey Toobin reads FDL from time to time. (I have this info secondhand, BTW.)
I’ve been saying from the outset;
they…are…STEALING
the information they’re gathering has NOTHING to do with national security, THEY ARE STEALING
all a warrant does is get somebody to make sure they aren’t gathering information for personal reasons, that there is a legitimate concern that might be resolved with the data gathered
they don’t want anyone to check to make sure they aren’t stealing this information, that means they ARE stealing the information
what are they stealing?
bussiness contacts, prices paid for goods, prices bid on goods, new products
what else?
private information to hold over an adbersary’s head in blackmail
we MUST start to believe pelosi is being blackmailed and that’s why “impeachment is off the table”
what else?
intelectual data, pattent applications, desired real estate locations, the highest price willing to spend, the lowest price willing to sell
what loan is this bank going to make and why, what stock will improve with that loan
they are stealing
I would like to see democrats start asking THIS;
‘why are you afraid to allow a board to make sure you aren’t stealing”
“what are YOU trying to hide?”
that’s what democrats have to start asking
Toby at 45 — The short answer is no. There is no requirement for a reporter of any kind to be anything other than “hired and working.” A lot of legal reporters have legal backgrounds — but it doesn’t always mean that they are reporting on a particular issue with real world experience. For example, you may have a civil litigator reporting on a criminal case or vice versa.
Like I said, original source material can be very, very useful reading.
SufiLizard @ 37
I’m having visions of Schumer in a toga.
It ain’t pretty.
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: This is the Bush Administration that we are talking about here. It’s a dead cert they didn’t do this by the numbers. If they were wont to follow the rules, they would never have gone this route. They would have sought any changes they needed through Congressional legislation. Also the telecoms would not be so nervous if they had been properly indemnified. Their lawyers and executives who were read into this had a fiduciary responsibility to their investors and customers to make sure their participation had ironclad legal guarantees to go with it. As I said, their nervousness makes clear they don’t have them.
I think that neither the government nor the telecoms ever dreamed that this thing called the blogosphere would come along and shine a bright light on them. It was all supposed to remain secret with any rough spots to be smoothed over by a complacent Congess. It wasn’t much of a plan but then it didn’t need to be and it still might work. Even with the blogosphere and the publicity, it is still possible that the Congress will pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
TxExSpeedy @ 44
clamorem et euthesium all over again.
Toby Wollin @ 45
Not necessarily. But it helps. Jeffrey Toobin and Dan Abrams are lawyers. Nina Totenberg is not.
Toby Wollin @ 46
Or reporters?
Toby Wollin @ 47
Hell, it’s not even a requirement that they be journalists.
SteveinNC – I agree with you, and I think BushCo has known from day one that the Courts were like Kryptonite to their rationale – and they’ve done everything they can to avoid Judicial Review because of it.
Like everything else about BushCo, it’s a shameless power-for-the-sake-of-power grab – their standard for ‘legality’ is ‘getting caught.’
They’ve gotten away with it by throwing Bright Shiny Objects at the Trout-mouthed Dems.
STTP in Ohio @ 41
Or maybe the ultimate Bright Shiny Thing is a cruise missile targeted for Tehran.
JF @ 55
There are a lot of people out there “doing news” these days of whom this could also be said. I think the concept of journalist and journalism has gone through a whole lotta changes over the past 10 years and the quality of the information out there on MSM has suffered for it.
Linda Greenhouse, who covers SCOTUS for the NYTimes, also is a lawyer. But she’s never practiced. In 1998 she got a Pulitzer Prize for her reporting.
Only slightly OT, New Froomkin up The Gonzales Legacy
O/T, but, keep one eye on this crap:
______
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan [AP] – Police swung batons and fired tear gas at supporters of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto near Pakistan’s Parliament on Wednesday, deepening a political crisis triggered by the imposition of military rule.
Earlier, Bhutto called on supporters to defy a ban on protesting the emergency declaration “at all costs,” even as the government threatened to crush her demonstrations…
Toby Wollin @ 60
It’s the Home Deopt approach to journalism. HD replaced most of their actual experts in the product departments with people who could, on a good day, hold a wrench. This saves money, but reduces the quality of the actual service. Of course, HD is the only game in town for many.
Similarly, the media has replaced many of its legal experts and investagative journalists with anybody that can hold a pencil. But, due to media consolidation, they are the only game in town.
Speaking of “journalists” and all that. Timmeh (our distinguished MTP host and NBC DC bureau chief) never studied journalism or trained as a journalist.
Am rearranging a kitchen pantry (while refreshing FDL) so pardon the tinfoil that’s on my mind. But I have long thought that the domestic surveillance is being used against political enemies.
There is no reason at all to believe the Dubya crowd had not planned this from the day the entered the WH. And I believe it could be one of the reasons that both the media and some Dems have rolled over and continue to.
ot lawyer question…what about Yoo? Cannot HE be disbarred? Is the bar so protective of itself that it is loath to disbar even the most loathesome creatures in their midst without being forced?
I’m thinking maybe all this will see the light of day after Bush leaves office, and a Dem
is elected…
This country is frozen in fear and needs
sunlight to melt the lies.
Alas, I can’t wait that long…
I haven’t read post or comments but I am curious how end user agreements work into teh program.
A small abstract example being an OS. You don’t own the OS. Rather you lease the use of the OS. Most technology beyond the computer you purchase is technology leased to you for use. You don’t own it. Additionally, to connect to the internet, you have a lease or contract with a service provider.
I wonder how FISA legislation and end user agreements meet.
STTP in Ohio @ 42
That’s the trillion-dollar question isn’t it?
I think the answer depends on whether he thinks he can get away with it. If We the People actually put up a fight, then he will likely pack up for Dubai.
When the going gets tough, chickenhawks flee the country.
Bay State Librul @ 68
Depends on the Dem in office doesn’t it? Hillary? Then no, it will not see the light of day. Dodd? Kucinich? Absolutely it would. Obama? I. Don’t. Know.
Hello Christy. haven’t been on in a long, long time. Long story short: major surgery and migration to a new computer.
My question is, what does it take to compel an investigation into the wiretapping? Like, exactly what legal process is required?
Jane’s upstairs with a cool tool…
wigwam @ 48
There is a problem with archiving. Storage systems change. Over the first 5 years there are probably few problems. By 10 years, you may need special interfaces and beyond 10 years you may need an archaeologist to help you.
Of course, information value also degrades over time. Most actionable information can be measured in days to weeks. Some info going back a few years may be useful to understand certain kinds of organizations, but again you are likely to hit a wall at about 10 years even for these.
BobbyG @ 63
I called on Nancy to do the same as Ms Bhutto.
A special prosecutor, we need a special prosecutor…
Can we exhume anyone?
Biodun @ 65
Yeah. He’s a lawyer.
dakine01 @ 62
I love how he begins:
Holy crap. Just went out to check my mail and I think it is spitting snow. (I don’t think it’s cold enough…weird.)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 79
Global Warming is thereby refuted, ‘eh?
Christy,
Thanks for taking part in the “media call,” and for providing the kind of background to them (and us) that they should already have done themselves. Just further evidence that journalism has been replaced in most media by infotainment programming!
Bob in HI
File under this is how things (wars) happen. Via Froomkin,
Questions?
Toby Wollin @ 24
“bring dynamite,
and a crane …
blow it up,
start all over again.”
Tobacco Road
just making some calls to members of the judiciary committee, as christy suggested….
still no statement from whitehouse on why he voted for immunity in the intelligence committee. this really irks me because if his reasoning is faulty, then there opportunity for citizens to provide that feedback to him… and if he has a good reason (i doubt it) but doesn’t share it, then we citizens are left frustrated and misunderstanding.
really – this lact of communication (especially truthful communication) from our elected representatives has got to end.
In case you don’t know, that photo is of Millennium Park in Chicago which is quite cool and not at all big-brother spooky.
In fact it is one of the most joyous urban spaces I’ve ever encountered. The giant video head is also a fountain that sends jets of water into a wading pool where kids of all races and classes play together — really remarkable and worth a visit if you’re in town. It’s in the southwest corner of the park.
Bay State Librul @ 68
I fear that Lord Cheney will not relinquish power to a Democrat in January 2009. I fear the Great Shiny Object will appear and we will all be distracted while Lord Cheney initiates his coup d’etat.
I framed my calls to the judiciary with the 4th amendment. Areal no brainer, yet they for the most part would not say anything definitive
Bobby G
Check this song out by Frank Zappa
http://globalia.net/donlope/fz……html#Dumb
I think it’s ironic that in civil cases (family law), I routinely subpoena large quantities of phone records for individuals and have yet to be denied. They pony up anything so long as you pay the document fees. No warrant, no nothing, just an ongoing civil action is all that is required.
It would be interesting to know exactly how congress plan on safeguarding citizens against having their intellectual properties and other transactional or business documents from being examined or diverted by the employees who do the sifting through of the emails.
I don’t think that congress have thought the whole matter through thoroughly,leaving Americans who may have found themselves violated without any redress is not the way to go.
The retroactive immunity isn’t for the telecoms…
It’s for Bush and Cheney!
Mark Klein is not alone. There are many other technicians with knowledge and evidence just like Mark.
They are waiting for the “cover up vote” before they expose the extensive corruption. Then it will be too late.
Watch this vote closely, for those that vote for immunity are voting for the cover up.
Don’t be fooled, everyone voting knows full well what they are doing.
Excellent posts Christy. Thanks for staying on top of this one!
I think it is important that we support Senator Dodd in his presidential bid. I know he is a long shot, but he is one of only three candidates (Kucinich and Paul being the others) that are talking seriously about restoring the Constitution and civil liberties.
The longer Dodd stays in the race, the longer these issues will be discussed. Once he’s gone, we won’t hear about this for the rest of the election cycle.
Please consider donating even a small amount (chrisdodd.com) to keep him going as long as possible. As Blue America has demonstrated, the little amounts add up.
(P.S. I am not an employee or volunteer for the Dodd campaign).
Christy — can retroactive immunity be rescinded? I know the Constitution disallows ex-post-facto laws — you can’t criminalize an act after it was committed. But would withdrawal of legal immunity be an ex-post-facto law, since it would simply re-criminalize an act that was, in fact, criminal when it was committed?
Also: what happens, potentially, if a retroactive immunity law is declared unconstitutional, for one reason or another?
Thanks.