If this doesn’t make the privacy crowd sit up and take notice — let alone the follow-the-leader “fear-fear-fear” sheep — I don’t know what will. Via the NYTimes (H/T to dakine):
…In early 2003, Mr. Klein took a tour of the Folsom Street office, where he saw a secret room under construction. By October 2003, he was transferred to that office, and he said he learned that only employees cleared by the security agency were allowed to enter the room.
Mr. Klein was responsible for maintaining Internet switching equipment near the secret room, and said he was stunned to discover that special “splitter” equipment had been installed in his area to route copies of all Internet traffic diverted through his lines into the secret room.
“What I saw is that everything’s flowing across the Internet to this government-controlled room,” he said.
Later, Mr. Klein obtained three AT&T documents that he said revealed the computer and equipment design for the room — documents that the company maintains he kept improperly after leaving AT&T in 2004. Those designs, according to Mr. Klein and other telecommunications specialists who have reviewed them, would give the security agency. the ability to sift and reroute international and domestic communications and data from the AT&T lines to another site.
“The physical apparatus gives them everything,” Mr. Klein said, adding, “A lot of this was domestic.”
Ever since the N.S.A. eavesdropping program was publicly disclosed in December 2005, the administration has said that it was limited to intercepting, without seeking court orders, the international calls and e-mail messages of people inside the United States suspected of terrorist ties….(emphasis mine)
They lied.
This is a set-up for one huge hoovering operation of every piece of data through the pipeline, domestic or not, without regard to obtaining an individualized warrant for spying on American citizens as required by the Constitution and the laws of this nation. And, worse, the in-house counsels of AT&T, Verizon and every other telecom company who cooperated with the Bush Administration’s push for unlawful spying without warrants. They allowed this to happen in house, without ever requiring a lawful warrant or subpoena, without standing up as corporations often do to demand that a judge order them on the record in an adversarial hearing to turn over private client records before complying. They simply did it — and not just for a short, emergency period of time which is allowed under the FISA laws in case of emergency.
They did this for years. Outside the law. Outside any third-party oversight. Outside any accountability whatsoever. Wired has more from an older interview with Mr. Klein which expands on these issues. And EFF has some substantial information about their case on their webpage here.
There is an enormous amount of power vested in the state and federal governments to intrude upon the privacy of citizens in a criminal investigation. Our legal system is set up to temper that power by requiring that such warrants list the particular facts involved in a request for information in detail, so that an uninvolved third-party person can see whether such a request is appropriate under the particularized circumstances.
So I thought some basic information on what lawyers do on both sides of these sorts of cases, what the normal course of business is, and what the FISA law requires might be in order. I thought all of this was pretty much common knowledge at this point, after two years of following these disclosures. Clearly, I was wrong.
More on this in the next post…
(Photo via Choubistar.)
UPDATE: I meant to include this — please call the Senate Judiciary Committee members today. Tomorrow they begin the FISA bill mark-up, and a number of folks are leaning away from telecom immunity. Let’s make certain they keep going in that direction, shall we?



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Christy!
ATT sux
And the former AG is OK with this. But of course he’s not well.
Dirty feckers.
I hope someone at least had the pleasure of spewing hot coffee through their nose reading the witty reparte here at the lake, more than once.
Now hear this, King George, Congress, NSA.
Don’t tread on me!
morning christy
I haven’t clicked through all the links yet, but I have been wondering about the EFF class action lawsuit and it’s doing.
I seem to remember that they were kicking major butt and perhaps, just perhaps this is why “immunity” is so gosh darn important these days. you know, immunity from the LAW.
[edited by moderator]
crap. I scanned too hastily. I see the EFF linky now.
(blushing, slinking away to read)
Just because I feel the need to say this: no references to violence in the threads. Please.
Very interesting. I need to work this out on paper (I have done extensive network setups on a professional basis). I’m not sure you can actually do this for *all* of the Internet. But you can certainly sample a large portion depending on where you’re dipping in. Hmmm.
If you know where the splitter is, you can route traffic around that. The question is whether it’s on one of the main arteries. My first impression, though is that you can, given the location, be assured of getting *everything* in the DC government. Which might explain some of the Democratic politician’s actions.
I have read speculation that the data mining infra-structure was already in place and being used by the tele-coms for business and marketing purposes. And that is the real push behind immunity..they are probably financially covered for the Fed spying but not the other stuff.
peanutbutter @ 9
That has been my assumption for years.
Someone sent me a good link on this for my scandals list although I only refer to it in a highly tangential way:
http://www.commondreams.org/he…..517-10.htm
I am not ceding my right to redress!
Interesting post from Cassie on this about a year ago:
We live with fig leaf 4th amendment protections. We are surveilled and questioned, searched without probable cause. Our phone and internet records are given to the government, we are filmed at almost every corner in the street. We have to sign into major office buildings.
We live in a police state. Step out of line and you can be disappeared. And don’t expect habeus corpus.
We are lied to and manipulated and the SOBs can’t even say that water boarding is torture.
We f*cked.
The thing that really gets me is why Corporations and the business community isn’t up in arms over this. Companies are conducting their most sensitive business operations in conference/video calls, sending of documents, and closing deals either via phone or internet.
WHY are we not hearing from them? If someone is monitoring their communications then there is a whole host of actions, interference, inside trading, competition could get the upper hand in deals?
WHY?
Again:
The rule of law is still-born in the Bush administration, which was inaugurated in 2000 when SCOTUS ruled in Gore v Bush.
I’ll behave.
I hope it’s okay to lift a paragraph from EFF linky:
my bold. I think every patriot can stand with the Constitution.
FDL and Eli get props!
“Wednesday’s Top 10 Political Blogs” -
http://www.thestreet.com/s/wed…..;cm_ite=NA
katymine @ 16
And attorney client privilege.
so they probably run all the personal expressions they hoover up through buggy, kludgy semantic filtering algorithms, and combine this with falafel purchases on your credit card:
http://cqpolitics.com/wmspage……0002620892
to assign everyone a Homeland Loyalty Rating, much like a credit score, which is of course a classified national security secret , and if it goes to a certain level, you get on the no fly list, or whatever level of harassment they feel like meting out that day.
“So Mr
Tuttle, Buttle we have ways of making you talk…”It will all be cleared up by the implacable investigations of the (D) Congress, right?
ha ha fecking ha.
katymine @ 16
I wonder the same thing. It doesn’t make much sense. Certainly some corporations take encrypted technology but I wonder how secure the average business is from this kind of spying.
Dear Lurking Mod:
Please feel free to clean up my #6 per CHS #8. thanks!
I continued to be amazed that more data files of “average citizens’ haven’t been leaked. Unless we have truly gone over the cliff, exposure of the intrusion into “joe six-packs” life should create a shit storm.
Leaning on Congress alone for oversight has not been terribly effective to date. This mess, however, offers yet another avenue for applying pressure . . . the corporate corner offices.
Christy, what would be the possibility of going after the law licenses of the in-house counsels at AT&T, Verizon, et al.? They did not (apparently) act to advise their clients that turning over and/or allowing unrestricted access to customer data without a search warrant signed by a judge is a violation of the law, nor have they (apparently) done anything save continue to cooperate with this illegal activity on an ongoing basis.
Can you lose your license to practice law by aiding and abetting an ongoing criminal conspiracy to violate the privacy of a significant chuck of the entire citizenry of the United States of America? If so, what’s the process for filing complaints that would lead to getting these licenses revoked?
Here’s your legacy, kids! And a mountain of debt! No need to thank us.
TexBetsy @ 14
peanutbutter @ 9
When Louis Freeh was FBI Director he began a program called “Carnivore” it invovles a data packet sniffing software. I am a technootard (Christy coined that term *g*) but you may be able to make something out of this article. After much controversy, the FBI claimed to put carnivore out to pasture, but did say it could get the same thing done using commercially available software.
Therefore, I assume NSA could get the same thing done using commerciall available software.
The point is, it’s already been done.
There are myriad ways of abusing this “security” measure. Spying on political enemies, spying on business competitors of major sponsors, spying on foreign allies as well as enemies, spying on journalists.
It’s not to fight terrorism, but to control those outside Cheney’s inner circle.
I’ve always felt spying on US political enemies was Job One.
from the times article:
” … acting under what they believed to be lawful orders from the government.”
Is Senator Dodd the only one who remembers Nuremburg ?
genocide was committed by those who were ” … acting under what they believed to be lawful orders from the government.”
is not “Ignorance of the law is no excuse“,
like a maxim somewhere?
And who “defrauded” these poor telecoms into committing these crimes against U.S. citizens’ 4th amendment privacy?
who orchestrated this conspiracy?
maybe ick-Day Aanee-Chay ?
who are we really giving immunity to?
Dear Mod,
you’re an angel!
:)
Chris Dodd is on it. This email just arrived:
ES – exactly…
I work for a software company… we FTP files, copies of databases, software and new applications are downloaded via the web. This is standard operating procedure in the software world… Where is the outrage?
Since my medical adventure…
Electronic medical records, faxing of sensitive medical reports… one included my exact diagnosis which puts the big red scarlet letter “C” on my chest which went flying through fax lines. YOUR private medical information is now being intercepted.
As ES states, legal consults, medical consults, family legal issues….no expectation of privacy. WHERE does the HIPAA law apply to guarding the privacy of my medical information?
From Cassie, per TexBetsy @ 14
There are some high school writing teachers just drooling at the thought of having a student who can write like this in class, along with a whole bunch of government/history teachers.
We have enjoined a battle of epic consequences, both for the victors and the vanquished,Christy.
To reverse this madness will take some time and it looks like nothing we do is effective, that is an illusion, those who are in power would love us to be quiet, to bow in subservience to their ill gotten agenda.
To quit would be criminal, and I/you don’t want to live in a world painted gray by dust filled souls who only see money and power as their raison D’etre.
I self edited what I should not have said, thanks for the reminder above Christy
I may be a cynic but I’m getting paranoid too. It would be my assumption that all the hoovering and data-mining would be sufficient to find the electronic equivalent of DiFi f**king a goat. [That’s equivalent. I’m not saying she did or ever would. It’s an analogy. Okay?] She’s their buddy now. Why?
Why would a Democrat, even a self-serving corporate toady, want to confirm torture-approving AG?
Why did Nancy Pelosi take impeachment off the table?
Why would Mukasey so radically change the tone of his confirmation testimony from one day to the next?
Why do the Democrats continue to roll over for Bush/Cheney?
As I said, I’m getting a little paranoid lately.
Christy & Jane, please keep up the good work. I like our Constitution and its protections, and I want it to keep protecting us.
Yellowdog Jim,
I happened to catch, by chance, a court hearing wherein the EFF lawyer was kicking butt on the states secret point. He says that the plaintiffs don’t have to know what the state secrets are to know that the plaintiffs privacy rights have been violated, or words and points to that effect.
Apologies for no linky. Just a hazy recollection. So EFF is calling a lusty BS on that. Just so we know.
Mod I tried to edit after reading a reminder by Christy.
Sorry it would not let me please erase my bad judgement
Maddy did you get my offer on the last thread?
“They lied.”
Of course they lied. As a teller at my bank said of Bush, “If his lips are moving, he’s lying.”
And I heartily agree with all those who suggested that the #1 purpose of all this warrantless eavesdropping is to spy on domestic political enemies and potential whistleblowers.
I really like peterr’s angle.. Would the BAR association be susceptible to pressure?
It seems like the American citizen as a consumer must have 4th amendment protections from private surveillance.. At the very least an opt out of allowing companies sharing our info should be enacted, imo.
Jim the cynic,
I think you just listed the writer’s guidelines for FDL? ;)
These are the questions burned into the folds of my overtaxed brain.
Katymine I emailed a scan of my MRI results to my chiropractor and my dad the other day. Didn’t think twice about it.
This has to be HUGELY expensive. What budget is being used, I wonder? This while an entire city drowns, bridges collapse, and fires rage with far too little aircraft to help. I thought we were going to be seeing a little oversight.
We cannot afford this program, not to mention the legal aspects.
Why can’t they get a warrant to get the information they need for specific cases? And when did we agree to live the Big Brotherlife?
Jim the cynic @ 35
Difi’s husband’s war profiteering was being investigated. Her vote to confirm Mukasey was a no brainer, she has to ensure the investigation goes buh-bye. It was big news here in California not long ago, now all we hear about it is crickets.
I meant to include this — please call the Senate Judiciary Committee members today. Tomorrow they begin the FISA bill mark-up, and a number of folks are leaning away from telecom immunity. Let’s make certain they keep going in that direction, shall we?
TexBetsy @ 38
No, I will go back and look
do-si-do @ 36
we, as a nation, drove Nixon from office for the cover up of his attempts to eavesdrop on the DNC at the Watergate.
they had to send a team back in to repair the original equipment which had quit.
the equipment itself was maybe 8 pounds.
the cover up was an impeachable offense.
now?
cheneyBu$hco have access to every electronic communication, transaction and conversation that every Democratic candidate sends or utters.
no questions asked.
plus all the satellite pictures/tracking they want.
(h/t nonplussed)
Eureka Springs @ 40
You have to have standng to make a complaint. You have to show that the attorney’s actions harmed YOU specifically. Most disbarments come from attorneies stealing escrow money, or being drunk in court–that kind of thing.
WHat you are describing is more like malpractice.
If you wanted to make a splash, you would have to find out–with particularity– who were the individual attornies invovled in this deicison,
and get togeher a HUGE “class action” type group to complain as one. Your complaint would be gross malpractice that harmed all of you (your class would have to be composed entirely of customers of the relevant telcom) and that such gross malpractice also brings the whole legal profession into disrepute.
Then start sending out press releases.
It will at least provoke some serious meetings, etc.
Oh, and since most of these guys are proably in NY , send copies of everything to Chief Judge Judith Kaye
Don’t the State Attorneys Generals and Secretaries of State have a hook on this? If a communications Corporation is violating privacy on a systematic basis, the state governments could move to revoke the foreign corporate registrations that AT&T must maintain in each state in order to do business there.
While the criminal actions are probably preempted by federal law, the corporate licenses just to do business will remain under state control. It would cost AT&T a mint to have to defend itself in 50 different jurisdictions at once.
TexBetsy @ 38
Emailed you
I would like to add that not only is immunity not acceptable, but the records that the government illegally collected by vacuum must be entirely purged and no records retained. They must get a warrant, period, if they want to look at any individual American’s communications.
The government must NOT be allowed to “benefit” from using ill-gotten information on American citizens. Period.
Elliott at 44 — I think it all goes back to the Hoovering aspect of this: when you do not have specific probable cause that you can articulate for individual circumstances, e.g. “We think Bob has been associating with known al qaeda cell X because of the following reasons: blah blah blah.”, the you cannot ask for a particularized warrant as required by law. What they’d have to do is “we would like to spy on 5 million Americans using the internet and use our computer technology to sniff around like an old-timey miner panning for gold nuggets and see if we hit paydirt.”
Not so legal under the Fourth Amendment for spying on Americans, let me tell you. Because the 4th Amendment requires a particularized reason.
Interesting…
The Detroit News
Christy Hardin Smith @ 52
Did you read about the FBI attempts to comb people’s grocery bills looking for felafel?
looseheadprop @ 48
As someone with an ATT email addy, I think I’m in that particular class.
What we need is for someone to come forward and say that the phone records/email of a Dem. lawmaker were specifically monitored, transcribed and sent on. That will be what gets everyone’s attention. Someone knows if this was done. Is it possible to subpoena everyone that would have knowledge of exactly what was done with the intercepted data to find out what they did with the info? Or am I missing something obvious?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 52
thank you Christy
TexBetsy @ 54
Uh oh. Bill O’Vibrator better watch his backside, I mean his behind, oh…nevermind.
dakine01 @ 55
Does it actually have to be only ATT customers? As I understand it, the way the switches are handled is that they were giving access to ALL traffic, ATT or not, that passed through their switches.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 53
This is just a garden variety fishing expedition. There actually was a legal analysis done that said that carnivorous sniffer probrams which immediatley destroyed the copy of the any data package that did not produce a positive hit, might pass muster under Pittsburgh Steele (the famous Justice Jackson opinion that lays out how presidential power canwax and wain depending on the circumstances)
But even so, you need at least some inkling of a reason why you are sniffing in the first place.
A good piece of advice from Chris Bowers:
Open Left
“They lied” says CHS upstairs.
And,(this just in), water has been found to be wet!
These are horrible people intentionally doing horrible things and the sooner we accept this sad fact the closer we’ll be to ending this seven year nightmare.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 52
Christy – where we go and what we look at and who we communicate with on the internet is already being monitored. How do we think that law enforcement gets the information that it does to go after people for pornography? ISPs are already monitoring everything and looking for certain viewing habits and addresses. Anyone who thinks that no one knows where they are going on the internet is nuts. We won’t even discuss things like chat rooms. ISPs – people like Time Warner, etc. — already are doing it. If your traffic goes through their servers – then they know everything they need to know about you – who you email, what you buy, what credit card you use to buy, etc. etc. Forget grocery stores and felafel – that is a joke. My very words right this minute are being recorded and analyzed by some machine in the stream of the internet and depending on what filters they are using, a decision is being made…
solai @ 57
THAT would be the “watergate break in” moment
STTP at 62 — Well, I didn’t exactly say it was a surprise to me, did I? *g*
TexBetsy @ 55
Wow, that just opens all kinds of possibilities for “our government” to keep us safe.
They can check grocery bills for people buying rice and beans to track down all the “illegal” immigrants.
They can go to Bed, Bath and Beyond, and track down the gay men shopping for interior decorations. (What other type of man would shop there?!)
And of course, they can check video store receipts to see who’s renting porn to catch all those sex maniacs.
I feel safer already.
katymine @ 32
Yeah, this kind of puts the drive for electronic medical records in a whole new light, don’t it?
Maddy no mail yet.
Praedor @ 60
In order to be a member of the “class”, you would need to be able to prove that YOU communications went through a known intercepted switch.
I don’t know enough tech stuff to know how you would do htat
Toby at 63 — Actually, they get it via monitoring creepy chat rooms where kiddie porn traders chat with each other to exchange their picture collection, through busting others via child sex crimes cases, other kiddie porn cases, and any number of other means. They don’t just generally hoover in every single internet dicussion and sift through for a pervy conversation. It’s far more targeted than that.
But you’d be amazed how many leads you can pull off the hard drive of a single person who has been nailed for kiddie porn. It’s amazing, really, what sort of trail you can have, and what trail so many others leave in your wake.
OT – people in Alabama, south Georgia and north FL, look up, you may see the shuttle coming in for a landing
Praedor Atrebates @ 59
All telecom and internet providers out there either own their own cables or are leasing cables or are leasing/owning through IRUs individual fibers within cables. Many different companies can be all snuggled up inside a cable with each one leasing or renting (through a long term IRU) fibers. Any cable that ATT is using, unless they own it (and even if they do, they may be leasing fibers in it to other companies as well), is carrying other people’s traffic. So no one should feel that because they don’t use ATT that they are somehow “safe”. No one is safe. Even QWEST customers are not “safe” since Qwest, like everyone else, also uses other people’s cables.
Now mind you that I’m not defending this in any way, shape, or form (and in fact I’ve been a long time contributor to EFF from when it was first started up). Some of you have asked about why “more shit hasn’t hit the fan” essentially.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that the entire Internet is tapped in the splitting room. Last time I checked, we were schlepping around multi terabytes of information daily. Throw in digital phone communications and such and we likely generate data by the terabyte per hour or minute now.
So you have to stream this in and store it somewhere, and make sure you have enough storage. Just putting that structure together is a daunting task — you need enough storage, computers working in parallel…you know ther’es no indefinitely sized storage media out there to suck all this in, so you’ve got to be changing out full media and putting in empty ones all the time. Then you’ve got to put the filled media somewhere accessible to the computers that will search and sift thru the data. Mind boggling at the size of this task yet?
Now, it’s possible to streamline that a bit. You might, for example, discard binary files (although, I bet the RIAA, if they don’t alreayd, would luuuurrrrvvve to have their won splitting room for binaries (aka music files, dvds, cd images, etc)) and concentrate on text files. But the moment you start filtering your input, you run the risk of slowing down the streaming and copying of data.
Now, you have a mountain of data. How do you sort through it? How do you search through all of that without it taking hours and hours to complete a query sifting through all that data.
Yes, google seems to do it for the entire network. But this isn’t quite true, there are a number of factors. First of all, google is monitoring web pages. Many people forget that the internet is only partially composed of web pages. Email, file transfers and other types of data exchange actually make up a far larger proportion. Second, if you are at all aware of how google sets things up (I’ve interviewed with them before), they have massive numbers of computers set up in parallel, all over the country. They don’t have it in a single room. Third, they’ve decentralized and split up the searches themselves. Images here, news there, individual sites over there, book searches here, and so on. Something that taps into the general flow of the internet can’t be choosy like that.
Data collection, retention, and recall is a dicey thing. Here’s another aspect to consider: technology moves so fast in upgrading storage media that the risk of losing data because it is on outdated media is very real and a distinct problem. NASA has been battling this one for quite some time, as much of their archival data from the various different space probes is rapidly out of reach for researchers and so on, because the equipment to read the old storage media is harder and harder to get ahold of.
However, I’m quite sure there’s more than enough invasion of privacy that goes on, and indeed, it’s the simple loss of expectation of privacy, as Cassie said, that is more than enough damage right there. But the fact that more hasn’t happened or more hasn’t come out of these spying things that we know of, could well be because they’re literally choking on the data. That ain’t coffee coming out of their noses.
To follow these concerns, going through the EFF site (www.eff.org) is well worth the effort. They lay it out pretty well, although there’s a fair amount of geekitude (what do you expect with Stallman involved :-) ).
JF @ 68
and don’t forget Goerg Bush’s push to get a cord blood registry. Nice way to get a DNA sample at birth, eh
The company I work for does almost everything over intranet … which is multicity, and therefore has to use the phone lines. We sign up for benefits and do other internal-personal-paperwork stuff at an (outside?) website – granted, there’s a user ID and a password involved, but I’m sure that’s not going to stop NSA: they pretty much control the data-security-algorithm field.
I expect that they know who I call and where I go (and what I buy) online; they probably read my e-mail too. I don’t like it. It isn’t how it should be: it isn’t how the Constitution and the laws are written.
I have no expectation that my senators are going to do anything about it, either. Because one of them is DiFi the DINO.
OT–
From a Gray Lady article yesterday about MSNBC now leaning left:
AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein is featured on Chris Dodd’s website.
Somehow, I don’t have the stomach to watch the video yet. But I will. Too much bad news lately. What with Mukasey and all.
looseheadprop @ 64
As I posted earlier, it is remarkable that there hasn’t been such a leak. The only one that I know about was the news photographer who had a friend in FBI data section who sent him a “hard copy” of his file. This was ~2002. IIRC the file was 100 pages in a font like a credit card bill and it have everything.
People, I suggest ya’ll take a look at Tor. It provides anonymizing of web surfing, email, and internet chat if you wish. It works with Mozilla browsers, among others. When/if you wish to be able to browse websites without either the government OR the actual end website from knowing who you are or what your actual IP address is (just to kill off spam and government illegal spying) then Tor is the tool. It is slower than normal direct browsing because all your traffic gets routed (and cleansed at each step) through 3 random computers at random locations around the world. It isn’t something you would likely want to use all the time but when you simply think it isn’t your company’s, your ISP’s, or the government’s business what you are reading then use it. It can be activated and deactivated as you wish.
Funny, in either late winter 2003 or early 2004, I witnessed a DHS guy (he had his ID hanging around his neck as I walked passed him and he turned into the building) carrying a huge reel of cable into the Troy, NY AT&T offices/switching station. I told everyone I knew at the time – seems I was the only one concerned. So for the past 4 yrs, they’ve been active in Troy, NY.
Not being a lawyer or someone wellversed in law, I did write a letter to the local papers, but it never got published (censorship or worse???)
looseheadprop @ 61
Its the terrrisists don’t cha know.
Will we ever be done with pri** in the WH.
TexBetsy @ 69
That’s because it’s in the process of being monitored and transcribed, Betsy!!!
Good News for a change:
link
peanutbutter @ 74
A great summary. Thank you.
I think the Mark Brown video interview was done by none other than Matt Browner-Hamlin. I know some of us — including myself– were not pleased by Chris Dodd’s debate performance, but I still think he’s miles ahead of Hillary on most issues.
OT – shuttle discovery landed safely.
newtonusr @ 85
Incidently, the tor site I linked to above is sponsored by EFF. The tool is EFF.
I use tor now and again for giggles and grins AND I have used it to setup a truly anonymous email account with a free email provider, just in case. The provider has no way of knowing from where I actually signed up from nor where I am in actuality when I periodically sign into that email account.
Steve-AR @ 83
Steve-AR @ 89
How does that stack up to her evil opponent (Wynn)? I donated (monthly installments too) but would like to know how she stands with the war chest vs Wynn (and Pelosi).
pb @74
No one is saying that this kind of monitoring or sweeping is easy in the technical sense that you describe. But it is illegal.
And if the last ten years has taught us anything, what is technically difficult/impossible today may be quite easy tomorrow.
I want that camel’s nose out from under my tent. Now. I don’t care if it isn’t hungry today — it will be hungry sooner or later.
BTW Pat Robertson has endorsed Rudi Giuliani.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11…..on.html?hp
They made the announcement in a joint appearance. Reporters stayed a safe distance from the two because of the toxic levels of hypocrisy.
Praedor Atrebates @ 89
I haven’t seen Wynn’s numbers but I don’t think it will make any difference. In ‘06 Donna came very close to beating him, with no money and no name recognition; just a good message and hard work.
“How is our Kabuki Plan for the Week going?” says Darth to Evil Chewbacca.
“So far,” my Lord, “Mukasey has mumbled his way through Torture and the Dems have sent him to the Full Senate.”
“Excellent!”
“Next up is Retro-active Telco Immunity and implicit endorsement of our rationale for commanding compliance with our ‘extra’-legal orders, contrary to the Constitution.”
“Oh Goody!”
“Which of the Dem Sheep should we dip in the stink this time, my Lord?”
“Hmmmmm…this is Torture and Spying on their fellow Citizens, we need to Dirty the Dems good on this one…Hmmmmm.”
“Shall I suggest we make Harry Reid grovel before passage?”
“Excellent!”
Praedor Atrebates @ 90
Can you believe Wynn voting for DKDC’s (Dennis K.) Impeachment Resolution?!? What a freakin tool! Here’s a guy that votes with Repubes on basically every major issue, calls himself a Dem, and out of the blue votes to Impeach Cheney.
Riiiiiight…couldn’t have anything to do with Donna’s success, could it? I’m thinking he’s scared. ATTACCKKKKK!!!!
Isn’t this from Frontline like 6 months ago? And with audio and video.
redx at 96 — Some of it is, yes. But, as you will see from the post coming up, there is a reason I’m repeating shit that I thought we already all knew…
Elliott:
Check your Facebook mail…*g*
peanutbutter @ 74
This is certainly a thoughtful post and I do not have the competence to address it in kind. I will offer you some anecdotal information.
I am acquainted with a person who is an expert in relevant computer science technologies. He develops new technologies. He changed jobs a couple of years ago and it seems like he had to go through a pretty high level security clearance for this one.
A little over a year ago, we spent some time together in the pursuit of some common non-work related interest, which is how I came to know him. I didn’t take the conversation near his job, as I knew he wouldn’t go there anyway. Talking about more general things, he did express the sentiment that the only thing hard to deal with is all the streaming data. As far as e-mail and all, I got the sense that it is well within the capacity of the technology to get EVERYTHING.
bonkers @ 95
Actually, I was wondering if Wynn really is a Dem or if he is a GOPer that registered as a Dem to get elected. I doubt he was voting for Kucinich’s resolution because he agrees with it, but rather, he was doing what the GOP did to prevent the traitorous Dem “leadership” from tabling the measure in hopes that it would embarrass the Dems.
Biodun @ 98
*g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 97
We’re headed for the *deep* weeds, folks . . .
*g*
bonkers @ 94
This term, his progressive score is ~96% compared to his lifetime score in the mid 80’s. He is trying to pull a “Jane Harmon” ; won’t work for Al.
Bush and Cheney came into office to game the system in any and every way possible. This crowd has never invented, earned,or had an original thought etc. in their sorry lives. They trade on insiderism, thievery, thuggery, and violence. They have been using the national security apparatus since day one of this crime wave to spy for business and political purposes. They probably could have gotten away with it also if they had not gotten overly ambitious with Iraq and completely screwed it up. It became too apparent that all they are good at is stealing and lying. They started a war and lost, and history continues to show that it is the stupidest thing one can do.
Why is business not screaming bloody murder for the financial and industrial spying? Because they are either in on it, or they hope to be. That is how they get these schmucks to cooperate. By promising a payday next week. They get screwed over and over, and they need to go to jail for cooperating.
Peterr @ 102
Christy, you’re awesome.
radiofreewill @ 94
Was this recording done legally?
Re: volume of data. This SF site is the only site WE KNOW OF.
Re: intercepting of calls. I had a strange experience about 1988. In a phone call, with both ends in the SF Bay Area, I happened to say a word (the one the mod doesn’t want me to use) and we heard a LOUD click on the line and we talked about the NSA’s Intelligence Desks that Compuserve magazine had just published an article about. I repeated the word, and a LOUDER click happened. We thought this was spooky, so I said it again. CLICK. BUZZZZZZZ. Cause and effect seemed pretty clear, all three times.
But as Rush would say, “I hate anecdotal evidence.”
Praedor Atrebates @ 99
No Dem in Congress is even close to a GOP voting record. Our very worst Dem., Gene Taylor is still ~ 20 points better that the best Thug..(moderate??) Chris Shays.
(ot: a hilarious and informative take on why the writers guild of america is on strike courtesy “the office” writers on the picket line yesterday – many of whom are also actors on the show)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6hqP0c0_gw
Question for CHS…have ya’ll ever considered a change of engine for FDL so that the number of posts doesn’t force a rapid-fire creation of a new story? I appreciate the quick stories and all but there is the downside that SOMETIMES a good thread gets hacked off into a new story because the message load requires it rather than the thread having died on its own.
Just wondering.
Fresh thread — part II of this
Peterr @ 91
Oh, quite, as I stressed my opposition to it at the start :-)
The flip side of that, if I may, is that *both* will change geometrically. Sure, we may improve our methods…but the data will likely tip over into yottabytes per second.
Some people were asking, well why hasn’t this happened? Or that? Was trying to give some background understanding of the issues.
Oh, I absolutely agree. Consider donating to EFF — they really have been on top of all this stuff for over fifteen years.
BeBe @ 103
Now that’s what I’m talkin’ bout!
The sooner we focus on the sinister nature of all this, the better.
What if what the crowd in charge wants to do is slink away with all of these powers and potentially not even pass them to the next President – that sure would setup a crisis.
Imagine if Dwight Eisinhower (frontline & sputnik) had slunk away with spy satallites but not passed them to the next president. Well depending on how this was setup and who did this (private allies) it could happen that at least this crowd keeps their vampiric tap (fireoptic pun intended) into the matrix.
Al Wynn’s a “Zell Miller” Dem.
BTW, running for office is an incredibly brave and difficult thing to do. I respect any true Dem out there running, especially the Blue America candidates. But holy donations Batman, Donna Edwards is really an exceptional Democrat. The more I see from her, the more I think she should be in a much higher office than the House of Reps.
to Wynn: “Well, sorry is just too late!”
Nomolos – They rendered R2 to the Gitmo Death Star and tortured it out him, before dumping him on Tatooeen.
I hear he’s lawyered-up, now, though.
Praedor at 110 — Yep, we sure have. In fact, we’ve talked about tinkering with that, and will definitely let you know if we come up with a solution.
Hugh @ 92
Or just good ole-fashioned lightning bolts.
Jeebus, wake up and smell the corruption folks. The Naomis (Wolf & Klein) have nailed the big picture w/ great prescience. The US/Canadian/EU consortium of gov’t insiders & IT/Telecomm/Consolidated_Media&Financial corporate insiders have not only put in place the underpinnings (laws & technological systems) of intense real-asset centralization in the US by the late 1990s under privateering Clintonistas but EXPORTED the systems (e.g. “3rd generation wireless networks”) to the Chinese & other gov’ts/dictators who have been busy doing the same asset stripping on their national fronts. Meanwhile, consolidated commerical “media” gives up “bread & circuses” to distract the populous. With the necessary aid of vast sophisticated automation, institutionalized S&M_ socio/psycho-pathy (”fascism”) is the ruling elite’s choice for perpetual profit & asset control (e.g. check out the Chinese self hand-pollinating Asian pear groves b/c Nature is so decimated by greed as shown in the PBS documentary, “Silence of the Bees”).
In Washington Tuesday, members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee savaged Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang and General Counsel Michael Callahan for the company’s involvement in the 2005 jailing of a Chinese dissident. But if their bipartisan criticism of Yahoo’s behavior – cooperating with a Chinese government “subpoena-like document” to supply information about journalist accused of the “illegal provision of state secrets” – sounds disingenuous, it should. After all, those are trademark tactics of the Bush administration and its Republican amen corner in the aftermath of 9/11.
For the details, see:
“Yahoo, China and Bush’s America.”
looseheadprop @ 27
70% of all surveillance is now outsourced
peanutbutter @ 74
Here’s where I begin
Don’t have a lot of time, late for a meeting …
How do you sort through the data?
google Narus and for one way and find out about all the en es ay (say it out loud) connections
Or click here for a summary
That’s just one company and there’s plenty more … I don’t have time to find the links but there are others that brag about being able to intercept and analyze something like 500 billion emails in just the US not even counting the rest of the world.
And if you just want to talk about ATT — have at this which I don’t know if is in one of Christy’s links
AT&T Invents Programming Language for Mass Surveillance which talks about Hancock which is the system ATT uses among other things like what Russell Tice has spoken of
More here about tor which Praedor Atrebates was talking about upthread
And if you want a ton of raw info click here
BTW thanks for your info peanutbutter
Human nature must have changed radically over the past six years, because there was a reason why government should not have blanket permission to treat all Americans as suspects. That reason has become meaningless, has it? So, today we can trust other humans not to abuse the right to spy on anyone they choose without oversight. I must have missed the miracle. What was the date? After all, what is government, but a group of individuals all subject to the temptation to puttheir noses wherethey don’t belong.
I’m certain that the republicans must be referring to some new type of humans who only exist in the Republican Party. There is no reason to believe that government officials would spy on Americans without probable cause or a warrant, because these conservative humans are superior to all other humans. They cannot be tempted. This is why we can be complete suckers and dutifully trust that republicans will not behave like other humans.
See, how simple this is? Once one recognizes that there are superior humans amongst us there is no problem with republican arguments regarding lawful, religious, sanctified, and divinely inspired republicans spying on whoever they choose. I don’t see the problem here.
The retroactive immunity isn’t for the telecoms…
It’s for Bush and Cheney!
Mark Klein is not alone. There are many other technicians with knowledge and evidence just like Mark.
They are waiting for the “cover up vote” before they expose the extensive corruption. Then it will be too late.
Watch this vote closely, for those that vote for immunity are voting for the cover up.
Don’t be fooled, everyone voting knows full well what they are doing.
“They lied”
Of course they did. It’s what they do.