Here’s a juxtaposition for you. In today’s NYT Science section:
In 1956… Jack Brehm… asked people to rate the desirability of things like an electric sandwich press, a desk lamp, a stopwatch and a transistor radio.
Then they were given a choice between two items they considered equally attractive, and told they could take one home…. After making a choice… they were asked to rate all the items again.
Suddenly they had a new perspective. If they had chosen the electric sandwich press over the toaster, they raised its rating and downgraded the toaster. They convinced themselves they had made by far the right choice.
(…)
[I]n general, people deal with cognitive dissonance — the clashing of conflicting thoughts — by eliminating one of the thoughts. The notion that the toaster is desirable conflicts with the knowledge that you just passed it up, so you banish the notion. The cognitive dissonance is gone; you are smug.
Of course, when you see others engaging in this sort of rationalization, it can look silly or pathological, as if they have a desperate need to justify themselves or are cynically telling lies they couldn’t possibly believe themselves.
Chuck Schumer in today’s NYT Op-Ed section:
There is virtually universal agreement, even from those who oppose Judge Mukasey, that he would do a good job in turning the department around. My colleagues who oppose his confirmation have gone out of their way to praise his character and qualifications. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, for one, commended Judge Mukasey as “a brilliant lawyer, a distinguished jurist and by all accounts a good man.”
(…)
Judge Mukasey’s refusal to state that waterboarding is illegal was unsatisfactory to me and many other members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. But Congress is now considering — and I hope we will soon pass — a law that would explicitly ban the use of waterboarding and other abusive interrogation techniques. And I am confident that Judge Mukasey would enforce that law.
On Friday, he personally made clear to me that if the law were in place, the president would have no legal authority to ignore it — not even under some theory of inherent authority granted by Article II of the Constitution…. Judge Mukasey also pledged to enforce such a law.
(…)
To defeat him would be to abandon the hope of instituting the many reforms called for by our investigation. No one questions that Judge Mukasey would do much to remove the stench of politics from the Justice Department. I believe we should give him that chance.
Of course, as Marty Lederman points out (by way of The All-Seeing Eye Of Froomkin):
[N]o such specifying law will ever be “in place,” because the President, devoted to torture and cruelty, would veto it.
What Senator Schumer ought to do, therefore, is simple — that is, if he truly cares about ending torture and cruel treatment: pledge to vote to confirm Judge Mukasey if and only if — and after — the President signs S.1943.
That sounds fair to me. And just how morally bankrupt has the United States become when two-thirds of Congress won’t vote against torture? Or when they even need to?
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hiya Eli!
Hail, muse Eli!
Eli !!
Hiya LL! Hiya Teddy!
Hear, hear! Hi Eli!
Dan Abrams trying to pretend Abu Gonzales acted on his own and that Mukusey is going to be free of influence from Shrubco Abu did not ruin the justice dept on his own
Hi Laura!
katherine Graham Cracker @ 6
Yeah, ‘cuz Mukasey hasn’t been regurgitating the party line at all…
(((((((Eli!))))))))
Betcha Mitch McConnell can read the writing on the Bluegrass wall…
Hi, radiofreewill! It sure does not bode well for His Mitchness.
Love Froomkin! Evening, Eli and pups.
ALMOST EVERYONE OPPOSES TORTURE– SHAME MOST OF THE ONES WHO LIKE IT ARE IN GOVERNMENT
Via Howie article, above, I got this:
Bush official: Okay to torture U.S. soldiers
~~~The U.K’s Guardian held a debate between Condi Rice’s top lawyer John Bellinger at the State Department and Phillipe Sands a law professor from University College London recently.~~~
Mr Bellinger made his remarks during a Guardian debate with Philippe Sands QC, professor of international law at University College London. Mr Sands asked whether he could imagine any circumstances in which waterboarding could be justified on an American national by a foreign intelligence service.
“One would have to apply the facts to the law to determine whether any technique, whatever happened, would cause severe physical pain or suffering,” Mr Bellinger said.
Evening, Loo Hoo. Froomkin is a treasure.
I disagree about S.1943 (not about Mukassey). We do not need to get into the business (trap) of specifying which ways of abusing people is specifically outlawed. Some a**hole will just say “Well, you didn’t specify knitting needles through the eyeballs, so we assumed it was OK!”.
Sorry, EPU’d and OT, Eli!
Okay, I’m sitting here on the Big Isle of Hawaii and I’m looking at snow, how many of you on the mainland can say that? Here’s an old shot of snow on top of Mauna Kea, tomorrow, I’ll post a current photo…
http://starbulletin.com/2006/0…..ory02.html
GordonM @ 14
It’s a bit like the Webb-Clinton amendment that supposedly requires the president to get congressional authorization before invading Iran – he *already* needs to get congressional authorization.
Waterboarding is *already* illegal, so this would really be more of a political maneuver than a practical one.
Food for thought, didn’t the orders for torture emanate from OVP…?
If waterboarding is mock execution (which I think it is), why can’t some Senators put forward the point that Mukasey and those that support him do not know whether mock execution is torture. Hammer that point home in one of the sweet ‘colloquies’ the solons have on the floor. Might make nice press and have legs, even.
Valley Girl @ 12
scott horton also posted on this – i listened to the podcast, it was good (where good = interesting and informative)
Eli @ 16
Yes, but I think it would be a much more astute move to proceed based on the view that it is already and demonstrably illegal (hell, we awarded some Phillipinos nearly $800 million based on their claim of being waterboarded by Marcos). This is the one thing that has Bush wetting his pants. Don’t take the axe to the bipartisan “sharpening” committee when it’s in fine shape right now.
Gordon M, it seems the dems are doing everything they can on a can-we-get-through-14-months basis.
Would outlawing waterboarding really mean anything? I think not, domestically or internationally.
Well, the orders for the OLC opinions certainly did.
Cheney –> Addington –> Yoo
Cheney –> Addington –> Bybee
Cheney –> Addington –> Bradbury
Opinions differ as to whether murder is currently illegal.
But, if you pass a law making it illegal, then I’ll think about enforcing it.
Chuck Schumer is an embarrassment to the Empire State.
I find it stunning that the word “torture” has been eliminated in front of (or behind) “water boarding.” It seems as though the whole discussion has resulted in simply now using “slow death” and “simulated drowning,” etc. as equivalent descriptives.
Like sd/sd is not um, torture. Some Defense.
It is mind boggling. I truly feel like my country (whatever good it ever stood for) is now Truly. Gone.
I know, you’ve been waiting all day to use the word juxtaposition.
This level of debate about torture = good? makes me faint. Hope saner people will prevail. And all those in the joint chiefs who are trying to put the crazies back in the box: GODSPEED.
Eli @ 16
i’d rather have a sense of the senate resolution that the senate understands waterboarding to be torture and already illegal under x,y & z statutes and constitutional principles.
Evening, all. Been quite a day. Still don’t know what to make of all that vote switcheroo-ing on the impeachment motion??
As for the perception issue, sounds like something out of the Situationist blog. Lots of fascinating stuff there about how things & people work…
Loo Hoo. @ 21
It is already illegal, that is the travesty of this charade…
selise @ 26
That might work. The other problem with a statute explicitly outlawing waterboarding is that it implies that it was legal before, which means that its practitioners are still beyond prosecution.
Or when you even need to ask the question?
Eli @ 29
no retroactive immunity!
Peterr @ 30
As I think has been asked before, since when is the appropriateness or legality of torture even *debatable*?
Peterr @ 30
uh-huh…!
I think Cardin had it right on the floor today. NPR had his remarks. I read on TPM that a family member of some of his constituents was waterboarded and otherwise tortured (let’s pass a law against torture!) after being disappeared for a few years, only to show up in Guantanamo.
Eli @ 29
Why do you think Levin was abruptly shown the door after submitting himself to it…?
bg @ 24
NO! My country, that I learned to love as a child, and still feel a patriotic loyalty to, is not gone forever. My country has fallen into a deep sickness and we must act NOW to bring it back.
It is not gone forever. Those of us who love our wounded nation must act to resuscitate her.
I’m with you, peanut butter. Did the dems cave because the republicans want the discussion on Cheney’s crimes? They should have welcomed it, imo. WTF?
Maybe (huge maybe) they are not satisfied with impeachment, and want to go for war crimes in ‘09. Maybe they don’t want Bush to have the ability to pardon anyone like he did Libby. I do not get it, and I haven’t seen a good analysis of this vote yet.
I like your Sense of the Senate idea, selise.
Mukasey is as likely to enforce the Law going forward as he is to give BushCo a Pass for previous Law-breaking.
There is another thing wrong with this Mukasey deal. IF congress does indeed pass such a law, and IF Bush signs it, doesn’t that send the message that OK, *NOW* waterboarding is illegal– as if it might not have been illegal before?
Schumer’s deal is just bad in so many ways. I think it might be better to pass a resolution (that doesn’t require Bush’s signature), stating that waterboarding WAS, IS, and forever shall be illegal. Period. Then cite all the legal precedents underscoring that history. And that any attempts to authorize waterboarding despite all these legal precedents were null and void and lacking any legal authority.
It is becoming clear to me that Bush & cheney’s main legislative agenda for the next year is *CYA*. The name of the game is remove any and all legal jeopardy. Yell “Security!” and then tuck in provisions here and there that contain retroactive amnesty for previous illegal acts.
We can’t let them get away with that.
Bob in HI
Marty Lederman’s solution to the Mukasey mess is elegant in its simplicity. This ensures that it will never be adopted, on this or any other confrontation between Bush and the Congressional Dems.
“Compromise? After you, Mr. President . . .”
CTuttle @ 17
I’ll bet Rummy, OVP, and Bush all approved torture at one time or another.
Bob in HI
Loo Hoo. @ 38
But, it is already illegal…
OT —
eg, turn on NewsChannel 8, if you don’t have it on already — local results!
CTuttle @ 43
and that’s what the sense of the senate would say.
Loo Hoo. @ 37
Impeachment precludes pardoning. It also strips the impeachee of all benefits and pensions (including health care) normally acruing to such people.
Criminal proceedings can be bolloxed by a presidential pardon.
So either impeach now, or criminal proceedings with a Dem president. I dunno. If we can’t get the dems to line up on torture, we’re not going to get them lined up to impeach a cockroach.
bobschacht @ 40
The sad thing is, I don’t think we can get 60 votes for something like that either. Because we know the Republicans will filibuster (or rather, that the Democrats will concede the filibuster without making them actuall go through with it).
CTuttle @ 43
current symbol of America, land of the free and home of the brave: an ill eagle
GordonM @ 14
I agree 100%. Shouldn’t come to that. I’ll give the guy fucking up his original answer but there’s no excuse for him not comming out subsequently and saying that waterboarding is torture.
selise @ 45
Yeah. Somethign like “We recognize and affirm that waterboarding has been considered torture and remains so ever since the early days of the Republic…” (oops wrong show). But you get the idea.
Beerfart Liberal @ 49
On the other hand, I have to give him *some* credit for not simply lying his ass off, which is kinda frankly what I was expecting.
I KNOW it’s illegal, CTuttle. I can’t believe that is even being discussed. I’m so angry about Feinstein I could spit. She’ll never run again, so I don’t even get to work to defeat her. So frustrating!
Loo Hoo, I think there’s room to suspect political deal-making going on.
BushCo is going to get rung-up for War Crimes after leaving office. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld don’t want Congress to make it easy for the World Court to find them guilty, so Mukasey pulls his Jekyl and Hyde act to please enough people to get the nomination.
We get the Rule of Law back, and Bush gets a 14-month whistling slow-walk on Torture.
Loo Hoo. @ 52
Mmmm. Wonder if there’s any criminal proceedings she could fall afoul of…?! That’s about the only thing that could get her before 2012.
Any responses, even STFU, to my #17.
And how did these elected representatives (and I am including Senators) come to think they were career civil servants: risk nothing, say nothing, keep head down, wait for pension.
Virginia election results [what, do i have to apologize for this being off topic?? this is SO on topic, to defeat Tom Davis’ wife]
Precincts reporting: 20 of 47
Chap Petersen-D 58.66%
Evil Repub-R 41.16%
Ok i might be a tinge biased.
And people, this was supposed to be a CLOSE race.
The voters of Virginia have HAD ENOUGH. Cue tommy yum music
Loo Hoo. @ 52
I share those very same emotions, M’dear!
How many votes are needed for a Sense of the Senate resolution?
well, he could easily sign it
and he would attach his signature statement;
“as it applies to a president’s understanding of protecting the the homeland”
which would of course exempt him
hwy it’a getting late here (for an ald fart like me) here on the east coast. can I go off topic with a question for the group?
Eli @ 32
And nobody seems to notice that torture doesn’t work, this is not 24 and Jack Bauer isn’t real.
Loo Hoo. @ 58
60. The Republicans will filibuster.
Beerfart Liberal @ 60
As authorized by no one, yes, Beerfart.
bobschacht @ 40
Yes. I even think at least 50% (probably more) of the noise about Iran is just to keep people from thinking about the crimes we already know about. If everyone’s scared of what he’ll do, they’ll approve a Southwick or a Mukassey, no problem.
So, Congress, grab the other end of the effing stick. You know, the one labelled “waterboarding”.
Eli @ 62
Let them. Beg them. Help them.
Signing statements do rather neuter the tactic of passing laws as a means to counter the runaway Exec branch. Is there any way to address signing statements themselves?
newtonusr @ 65
I misspoke. The Democrats will politely take the 60-vote requirement as a given and not require the Republicans to *actually* filibuster.
Hmmm. @ 66
Well, you can pass a law saying that they’re illegal or meaningless.
Which Dubya will then append a signing statement to…
Eli @ 62
I don’t think they would have the votes to stop it… But, I’ll reiterate, it’s already illegal! Why are we being consumed with mere semantics…? 8-(
Hmmm. @ 66
Where did signing statements come from? Did other presidents use them? I can’t remember any.
Here’s another example of cognitive dissonance:
Dick Cheney says “all options are on the table” against Iran, as part of a propaganda blitz against another country that poses no threat to the USA.
what a warmonger, personification of evil, neo-con Sith Lord, says the left blogosphere!
Hillary Clinton gets the (D) nomination, and sternly warns Iran that “all options are on the table” in order to seem tough enough to wear the Commander in Chief’s cod piece.
Must must must vote (D) for Preznit! must must must! keens left blogistan, October 2008, as Clinton’s numbers dip into the range in which the Republican dirty tricks machine can steal their 3rd national election.
there will besome cognitive dissonace to work through, but most will probably vote for the (D) neo-con, which will make all this contemporary opposition to imperial militarism into just so much wedge politics.
Twain @ 70
Yes, but nowhere near so many and nowhere near so drastic.
persiflage @ 61
Careful. The “War on Christmas” was just practice. A “War on 24″ will be armageddon.
radiofreewill @ 53
I sure hope you’re right.
jc inOR @ 55
i really have no idea what they are thinking… but my best guestimate (for difi and schumer) is that torture et all is either not a big deal to them, or something they really approve of (so only as it’s only arabs and/or muslims on the receiving end).
i don’t think it’s that they are risk adverse.
Twain @ 70
Yes, other presidents have used them, but nowhere near as much as Dubya. And I don’t think they were deployed with the same clear intent to nullify the legislation.
jc in OR – if Congress is *magically* not seeing that Torture is already illegal, why should they recognize the equivalancy between torture and mock execution?
FWIW, I think you are right – Waterboarding and Mock Execution are not different – you might drown, and the gun may have a bullet in it – either way, you could get dead.
peanutbutter @ 46
Screw impeachment, it’s too late. We need to swing public opinion so that criminal prosecution is being demanded after 01/20/09. A blanket pardon is possible but it’s hard to predict what a psychopath will do. He might get great pleasure from see all of the people who “failed him” go down. Even if people are pardoned, they can be required to testify and must tell the truth since they can’t self incriminate.
OT: Ridiculed author Buzz Patterson weighing in on previous thread, with integrity-oriented question/comments to and about all of us.
We need to swing public opinion so that criminal prosecution is being demanded after 01/20/09.
The Bush Administration isn’t just morally bankrupt, it is literally bankrupt…
Avoid the U.S. Until the Subprime Mess Really Hits the Fan
Grand Theft: America. The Bush legacy.
Hmmm. @ 66
It’s called “impeachment” — an executive who displays blatant disregard for the properly passed and signed laws of the nation might easily be said to be committing “high crimes” in creating a climate of contempt for the rule of law.
Is there a chance in hell that the House would actually vote to impeach Bush over signing statements, and that the Senate would convict him? No.
Hmmm. @ 79
Well, I’m sure that’s… devastating.
Impeachment proceedings preclude Pardons and Executive Privilege… Is it that hard to grasp folks…? (Rhetorical, folks!)
jc inOR @ 63
OK, here’s my off topic query. I asked because it’s really a change-the -topic quesry, so maybe out of line. But I’ve been following SCHIP pretty closely for a while now. And I’m reading tonight that Hoyer says he’s getting “real close” to having enough votes to have a veto proof majority in the House.
Now the SCHIP bill that was originally vetoed WAS a compromise. Then, Bush vetoed a compromise of the compromise. i mean, anyone else say “enuff already with the compromises!” Maybe I just have no confidence in the legislative abilities of this leadership. But for what it’s worth, I say let those Republican dead-enders who voted to sustain he veto twice deal with it at election time. Every one of them.
Sorry about the o/t question, but SCHIP is kinda not front and center any more and this pisses me off how Bush just whips out his veto pen and the Democrats go scurrying to compromise-again and again.
Peterr @ 81
Hmmm. Well, theoretically speaking, would impeachment of an executive also revoke that executive’s signing statements? I’ve never heard anyone assert that it would.
sporkovat @ 71
Mark Penn as well as admitted in his Book Salon here, that Hillary is going for the Republican Women’s vote (and expecting nearly 25% of them). I expect this is (more) triangulation. I have no idea what her real position is.
More importantly, I believe the MSM narrative that she’s annointed is BS (any of the top 3 Ds beat any of the top Rs – so “Hillary beats Rudy” is really “D beats R”). I do think the MSM is setting her up to win the primary so they can dredge the Arkansas closet for dirt before the general.
Beerfart Liberal @ 84
The Democrats appear to be conditioned to believe that passing something, *anything*, is somehow a victory.
But I’m with you. Let the Republicans vote down good bills and then make tie those votes around their necks on election day.
But the problem with that strategy vis a vis SCHIP is that kids are going to be uncovered and dying while the Democrats make their stand. So, maybe not the best choice.
selise @ 75
No, maybe not. But, also, as pointed out by Sporkovat at 71, they also seem to have no sense that this is losing them the whole game in 2008. They’re from New York and California for CRYING OUT LOUD (shouting and cursing like Archie Leach).
sporkovat @ 71
Senator Edwards, Feb 03 07, on Iran
link
Was this taken out of context?
GordonM @ 86
It still amazes me that someone who only wants to pull half our troops out of Iraq, and who seems to be okay with attacking Iran, is the frontrunner in the Democratic primary. I mean, aren’t we the antiwar party?
Eli @ 62
That wouldn’t be a problem, certainly.
jc inOR @ 88
The Democrats are correct in their belief that appearing weak is a huge electoral risk for them. They just don’t understand what kind of weakness it is that will screw them.
Oh, Eli, don’t confuse us with our party. WE are the anti-war democrats. The Party? NotSoMuch.
American Bar Association Task Force on Presidential Signing Statements – PDF
Steve-AR @ 89
no. the context was february. since then edwards’ rhetoric has changed quite a bit (he got a lot of grief for his iran statements). it is not at all representative of what he’s saying now.
the question, i think, is, does his change in rhetoric reflect his real views and how he would govern?
GordonM @ 73
This one should be easier though. If anybody is the antithesis of Santa Claus, it’ Jack Bauer. He isn’t jolly, kiddies don’t love him, and when he breaks into your house in the middle of the night, it’s not to bring you something you want.
bg @ 93
The party establishment, no. But the rank-and-file voters, yes.
They are all the same except for Kucinich and Ron Paul.
Kucinich is the only sane one left. All of the others see their souls…not Kucinich.
JMHO.
Hmmm. @ 79
Typical wingnut : a thread late and, apparently, several dollars short.
bg @ 93
What you mean “we” Democrats? ;-)
Green household here.
(And NO, we did NOT Vote Ralph.)
Hmmm. @ 79
Thanks! That was fun.
Beerfart Liberal @ 84
At this point is gotten down to nearly daily:
“The bad news Mr. President is that [insert scandal here] has broken. The good news is that no [insert yesterday’s scandal here] is no longer news.”
SCHIP may not be news anymore, but it’s one that will be remembered.
radiofreewill @ 77
So let our friends in the Senate link them: mock execution-torture, over and over and over. Let the supporters of Mukasey deny is or explain how our guys whisper in the victims ears before waterboarding that they are not going to die right away. Have the victims sign a waiver against claims of war crimes prior to water therapy. Surely this fine precedent can be fixed up later like FISA and the Patriot Act were.
CTuttle @ 83
“Conviction in a case of impeachment can result only in removal from office and disqualification from holding office in the future…”
The effort expended to penalty ain’t worth it. Criminal prosecution and prison time.
And the bottom line is, there will never be a 2/3 vote in the Senate for conviction.
TeddySanFran @ 101
Hey, I Live To Serve.
Hmmm. @ 100
Hmmm… I did in ‘04! Kerry did take Hawaii, overwhelmingly…
TeddySanFran @ 101
You’re just saying that because you’re an “all-knowing omnipotemnt”.
Can bush pardon people (blanket pardon) if they haven’t been charged with a crime?
Until January of ‘09 that is….heh.
GordonM @ 102
There was a hilarious bit on SNL a coupla years back where Horatio Sanz was explaining how he was applying the lessons he learned from the Bush administration to his every day life.
“Horatio, you’re late for work again!”
“I’m also drunk!”
I think he also punches someone. Basically, he uses new fuckups to distract everyone from the previous fuckups.
Nora Ephron on why it is hard to be a Democrat.
And, no I am not confusing the rank and file with “the Party.” I want my Party back.
Loo Hoo. @ 108
Yes. See “Nixon, Richard M., pardon of”
CTuttle @ 106
CT gets a pass for that, then.
persiflage @ 96
But, but, but he only breaks into their houses!
Steve-AR @ 104
But, impeachment doesn’t count as double jeopardy…
jc inOR @ 88
I have no idea how Difi survives here. It was a no brainer for her to vote to confirm Mukasey since the investigation of her war profiteer husband has to go away somehow.
Makes me ill.
Hmmm. @ 105
You live to serve? We must be related.
selise @ 95
Edwards was also a big mover behind the bankruptcy law when he was in the Senate, now says that was a mistake. Which again what are his views and how would he govern?
Mukasey is merely another Bush toadie. Very much like Condi Rice. A political hack if you will. And so. What does this make of Schumer and Feinstein, among others?
Loo Hoo. @ 58
Simple majority…and it cannot be vetoed. I suppose that the Republicans can try and filibuster. But that means they will have to debate and defend the absurd notion that waterboarding and other methods of interrogation that result in extreme psychological stress and duress are torture under previous statutes and the Constitution.
tbsa @ 115
Do you suppose the prospect of an honest AG in 2009 factored into her decision to retire?
Steve-AR @ 117
i do not know.
Beerfart Liberal @ 84
I think Dems want the children covered. I also think Dems want to override a W veto on something other than a pork-barrel water or farm bill.
But I am eternally an optimist, in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
cinnamonape @ 119
Only if the Democrats make them.
egregious @ 116
That, or both our parents had similar emotional problems…
GordonM @ 113
GordonM @ 86
They’ve dredged and dredged. No bodies to be found. That’s not to say they won’t dredge till the cows come home…
Eli @ 123
Aargh, ya just have to rain on our parade, eh? ;-)
Eli @ 120
Most definitely, that and perhaps she knew running again might be futile. The anger against her is growing. I didn’t vote for her in the last round as it is. I sent her a scathing email yesterday. Guess she took it okay I didn’t hear from the gray suits today.
Eli @ 68
A resolution that is the Sense of Senate cannot be vetoed and doesn’t require the signature of the President. Thus there can be no signing statement. The laws are already on the books. He can’t make a signing statement for already existant law.
cinnamonape @ 119
And you think they’ll have a problem with that?
I just love it when folks advise me the DLC has no power.
CTuttle @ 114
That is correct, impeachment doesn’t preclude criminal prosecution. My point is allocation of time and resources. This isn’t the Republican Party of Nixon where a conviction was possible. There is no way any Republican official can be convicted in the Senate, the Thugs have no morals. All efforts need to directed as exposure of the criminal behavior and firing up public opinion for criminal indictments. It will be like trying to change the direction of a cruise ship using a row boat but it can be done.
cinnamonape @ 129
You are assuming bush give a flying fuck about the law. He doesn’t!
cinnamonape @ 129
He can, however, stamp his foot impressively and refuse to invite Nancy, Steny, and Harry over for dinner any more.
Ever.
So there.
The GOP is Counting on the Dems to dirty themselves with Torture by voting-in Mukasey.
Their strategy is for “Strong and Torturing” to beat “Weak and Torturing” at the Polls in ‘08.
Twain @ 70
Signing statements were made by prior Presidents whenthey were handed laws that they felt would be judged Unconstitutional in whole or part. The signing statement was a statement that the President would not act Unconstitutionally and “defend and preserve the Constitution”. It was a statement to Congress that “if you don’t like me not enforcing part X and Y of your legislation…take me to the Supreme Court.”
Bush has absolutely nverted the purpose and historical use of signing statements and used them to destroy the Constitution instead.
Loo Hoo. @ 126
No. A deal was cut, ’cause Clinton could nail a bunch of R’s who have since all retired, so the deal is off. At least, that’s the rumor I’ve heard (and I tend to believe it, because Arkansas politics is as dirty as it comes). Maybe that’s just a rumor, but what is clear is that “Hillary has an overwhelming lead” is the product of the type of “polling” that Mark Penn does, and it has been promoted by the MSM very, very well. I really don’t expect either Hillary or Rudy (or Mitt) to be the eventual nominees.
Steve-AR: thanks for that Edwards quote. I find myself wanting to like him sometimes, certainly in comparison to Clinton and Obama.
but the same strictures apply – if they think the use of nuclear weapons against a non-existent threat is an option on the table, then they are beyond the pale.
At least it’s nice to know Hillary isn’t a chickenhawk.
Big Bill gives us ‘the word’:
Barack Obama said Tuesday that former President Clinton is making a leap to compare treatment of his wife in the presidential race to the “swift boat” criticism of John Kerry in 2004.
The former president had encouraged an audience in Nevada Monday not to let “trivial matters” take away the election from the Democrats as they have in the past. He cited the television ads during the 2004 presidential campaign that questioned Kerry’s patriotism and campaign commercials in 2002 suggesting that Sen. Max Cleland, D-Ga. was soft on terrorism.
Both Kerry and Cleland won medals for their service in Vietnam, during which Kerry commanded a Navy “swift boat” and Cleland lost three limbs. Both were defeated after the ads aired.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..interview/
FYI, Buzz Patterson is still posting on the previous thread, and is sad he’s not getting Soros’ money like we all do.
selise @ 121
A summary of the candidates and the bankruptcy legislation..it’s interesting
linl
Oklahoma kiddo @ 139
Suits me. Let’s talk about substantive stuff like her views on Iraq and Iran.
A few weeks of that and she’ll be begging for cleavage ‘n’ cackle stories…
tbsa @ 133
No, you don’t do it for Bush. You do it for the press.
madmommy @ 140
Hey we can’t all be raking it in from the war. We have to get it somewhere, geez.
GordonM @ 137
Huckabee has a lot of Arkansaw baggage, himself…
madmommy @ 140
Please, let’s not run gossip like fraud in the media business. It might be bad for fraud and the media business.
madmommy @ 140
That has got to be one of the all-time zombie lies.
I like how every time a wingnut complains about Media Matters quoting them verbatim, they always remind us that Soros is funding MM…
sporkovat @ 138
I am not trying to beat up on Edwards but we are dealing with politicians and not saints. Hillary get singled out for positions when the other candidates are not that much different.
AP – Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, practically the only politician to come out of Hurricane Katrina looking good, easily defeated a Democratic challenger Tuesday to win a second term.
omg, thank you for that video.
Hmmm. @ 124
LOL!
Yes. Let’s talk about Ms. Clinton’s views on the Middle East.
TeddySanFran @ 101
And still is!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 149
It was easy for him to look good after Katrina. His state got more money, and as bad as the damage was in Mississippi (and it was awful) the water came in and went right back out so cleanup began quickly. As opposed to large parts of a major American city stewing in fetid funk for days and days. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that he was formerly a GOP muckety muck, either, but that would be cynical of me.
Steve-AR @ 78
Impeachment is not “too late” – there are cases where impeachment has occurred after a person has left office…Secretary of War William M. Belknap. Post-tenure impeachment could be valuable for stripping Bush and Cheney of the power to block access to their Presidential records. It would decrease their opportunity to use the titles and benefits of their prior office (franking, pension, Secret Service, fundraising as the “former President”, receiving Federal contracts if they became executives of a company, etc.). They could be forbidden to hold any position of “trust, honor or profit under the United States” ever again.
In addition the question is raised as to whether a President can issue pardons WHILE they are in the process of impeachment, not just after they are convicted.
In my view this would make investigation and conviction far easier.
IF you support HRC it must follow that you support the Senator’s views on Iraq, Iran and the DLC.
Latest VA elections results from Girl Geeks R Us:
State Senate, Fairfax, attempt to take back the seat from Tom Davis’ wife:
Petersen-D 56.27%
Devoiltes-Davis-R 43.53%
with 32 of 47 of the precincts reporting.
In a race that was supposed to be close. HA!!!! [CTuttle +1]
cinnamonape @ 154
They *could* do it; they just won’t. “He’s out of office now, the nightmare is over, let’s just move on…”
TeddySanFran @ 153
That it is!
radiofreewill @ 135
It’s certainly Mitt “Double Gitmo” Romney’s strategy, and Rudi “I tortured Mafia chieftains” Ghouliani’s strategy.
1. Edwards v. Clinton on Iraq
As Steve mentioned earlier this year, neither Senator Edwards nor Senator Clinton have a flattering record when it comes to supporting Bush’s campaign against Iraq. However, Eric Kleefeld at TPM Election Central compared their Iraq voting records and discovered the following (emphasis mine, throughout this post):
While the two voted together the vast majority of the time, there are several striking differences here that are definitely worth our time.
While both were initially supporters of granting President Bush the authority to invade Iraq, John Edwards was actually to the right of Hillary for some time. Edwards voted against liberal efforts to: Limit the war authority for just one year, after which the President would have had to seek it again; Call for tax increases to pay for the war effort; Force the creation of a report on the possible manipulation of intelligence in the lead-up to the Iraq War. On those votes, Hillary voted the more liberal position.
Then things changed in late 2003 [i.e., when the 2004 election campaign started, with Howard Dean pushing a strongly anti-war position and forcing Kerry and Edwards to head more left-ward - eRiposte]: The two switched places, most notably with Edwards voting against the $87 billion appropriation — with Hillary Clinton making up the more pro-Administration half. And as the Presidential campaign progressed, Edwards’ attendance for more Senate votes suffered a severe drop. [eRiposte note: The only vote where Edwards and Clinton voted differently between late 2003 and late 2004 was the $87B appropriation]
Let’s recap. Sen. Clinton, contrary to portrayals that she wrote a completely unconditional “blank check”, actually voted to limit the Congressional war authorization to one year, supported tax increases to pay for war, and supported the creation of a report on possible manipulation of intelligence in the lead-up to the war – back in the 2002-2003 timeframe. Sen. Edwards voted against each of these measures. Now, this does not in any way justify Sen. Clinton’s other votes in favor of the Iraq resolution, but I usually see this context missing in the portrayals of Evil Republican DLC Hitlery Inc. Sen. Clinton – so I thought this should be mentioned.
link
egregious @ 157
How does this speak to the Davis family popularity, heading into Davis’ race for Senate?
Hmmm. @ 85
Conviction of impeachable offenses would…simply because thta Presidents signing statements…about THEIR intentions…would not be incumbent on the next President who took office.
cinnamonape @ 155
I agree 100%, it provides much of the material, shredding much of the Executive Privilege along the way…
Let’s hear from the Clinton supporters on the issues.
Steve-AR @ 89
What was he saying? Sounds like two different postions in the span of – what was it?- 48 hours? Kinda takes the sting out of his ad on Utube denouncing Hillary’s statements.
It’s a shame the leading Democrat candidates all must make noises that they will contemplate war if things don’t go our way.
What happened to nonproliferation? First, we need to elect a Democrat and force him/her to get back into the game, starting with Pakistan and them maybe India. Nukes for domestic power generators only!!! Decommission ours and their weapons stockpile. Of course, we don’t have the moral authority to do this anymore.
F*ck! Barbour elected Gov…!
newtonusr @ 162
We are working to make this the swan song of their hoped for dynasty. Take them down, one at a time. Or two at a time in this case.
Virginia Democrats have HAD ENOUGH.
eg — I just heard that Devolites-Davis conceded!
Eli @ 157
Well, we need to do something about that. Ford did the country a great dis-service with the pardon/”the national nighmare is over” BS. It just gave Cheney et al. 25 years of cover to plan and execute.
No – I’m not sure what to do, but we must arouse the public to get really upset about any sort of pardons, etc. this time around.
LoudounLib @ 169
Be still my aching heart.
cinnamonape @ 154
Obvious difference of opinion..My goal now is Nov. ‘08 and then to hold the Dems feet to the fire and not allow talk about “bringing the country together” or “partisanship” or “lets move forward” and I am sure we will hear “healing the country and bringing closure” Bullshit, part of moving forward is cleaning up the mess which involves restoring the rule of law.
Hillary for prez! Long live “The Third Way”.
egregious @ 171
NC8 reported it just a few minutes ago, can’t find anything else to corroborate
Steve-AR @ 171
This is going to get very very nasty – but to cut out a cancer so that it does not come back, sometimes you have to take some muscle along with it.
eg, Chap is on NC8 right now
Bombing Iran is on the table.
Toby Wollin @ 170
Well, my money is on exactly that scenario playing out again this time. Twist is, it’ll be Hil in January ‘09 giving the “full and complete pardon” to the relevant members and former members of the outgoing Administration.
It’s sad, downright tragic in fact, but I don’t see any of their alternative ways out of this situation as workable for them or anybody else in a position to affect what happens.
Hmmm.
Hmmm. @ 177
Don’t there have to be criminal proceedings for there to be a pardon?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 173
*gasp* Are you conceding already…?
Toby Wollin @ 174
As a surgeon, I approve of the analogy; I couldn’t have said it better.
bg @ 24
I agree that the terminological quibbling is itself part of the problem. However, I found myself gratified today to hear both Shapiro and Totenberg, in different NPR pieces, call wbding “controlled drowning,” which it is, since water is likely to enter the lungs. That takes care of anyone who wants to say it’s just tricking a person into thinking that they’re exposed to a danger when they are not. They are being exposed to the danger. I also liked the comparisons to the Spanish Inquisition. At least these ways of speaking help gather up the little protestattions that try to run off and hide in the corners.
Hmmm. @ 178
Well, 41 issued pardons for Cap Weinberger and other Iran/Contra folks 12/24/92, prior to their trials starting, effectively ending the Iran/Contra investigation before it could reach him. So given the family precedent, it would not be surprising to see Little Boots issue blanket pardons along about 12/24/08 for a whole raft of people.
Steve-AR @ 180
thought it was easier than trying to explain how this is like trimming the hooves on sheep and goats for hoof rot and …yada…yada…it got too long.
Eli @ 179
Not in the Gerry Ford model.
LoudounLib @ 174
This was supposed to be neck and neck.
But hey, I’m ready to celebrate!
It’s all about turnout. People calling friends and neighbors. People being fed up. People who have HAD ENOUGH, like so many across the nation. I hope we in Virginia have set the good example by our activism and our results.
Hmmm. @ 184
Okay then – doesn’t there have to be a credible *threat* of criminal proceedings for a pardon to be meaningful?
LoudounLib @ 176
LoudounLib, I’m very sorry to hear about the death of your young friend. (((((LoudounLib)))))
CTuttle @ 180
No way. ;0)
Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman derive much campaign money from the same interests.
cinnamonape @ 119
selise is brilliant! Thanks.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 190
QED on the Hil = Gerry thing.
selise @ 95
Here is the complete speech. It was broadcast by satellite to the Herzliya conference in Israel. It wasn’t a personal visit. but the complete speech does pretty clearly present his views. The excerpts are accurate.
http://www.herzliyaconference……goryID=223
eg @188, thank you :-) And hey, great work by you guys in Fairfax wrt Petersen v. “the wifey”!
Oh gosh. I almost forgot. Hillary did help Ned Lamont. She sent him $5,000 dollars for his campaign.
thank god steny hoyer shafted that wild-eyed dennis kuchinich.
we now return to our regularly scheduled analysis of steny hoyer’s cufflinks.
Forget 2/3 voting against torture.
It’s sad when you look at MCA2006. Assuming no vote changes, the new Democratic controlled congress would approve torture with a veto proof majority.
That’s what’s sad.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 196
Well he’s a Dandy from Maryland. Give him his due.
LoudounLib @ 194
Please, I never called her the wifey. I made sure I referenced her by her proper name whenever possible. She needed to be defeated, but not solely because of derivative status.
jello5929 @ 196
Yes. What a disgrace that was. There is typically about half of the Democratic caucus that is all too willing to go along with whatever godawful policy or nominee Dubya is pushing.
Not always the same half, but the votes usually seem to cluster around the 76-23 ballpark.
Lets see now. If I don’t agree with the policies of the Israeli government that makes me an anti-semite. And if I don’t agree with Hillary’s view and m.o. that makes me a Hillary hater.
Hey Eli
Well just to prove that clueless and out of touch applies to the local Democrats here where Mayberry meets Children of the Corn, our Democratic mayor got trounced, and 2 democratic councilmen got booted for tacit support of allowing liquor licenses into a historically dry town founded by the Methodists.
DUH!!!!!!!
After a very racous council meeting 3 weeks ago, the Repugs pounced on the views expressed by the citizens against the liquor licensces, and yard signs and door hangers appeared overnight reflecting the voice of the people.
Which by the way the said Democratic mayor first balked about listening to. I was at council meeting where she was adamant about not having an open discussion about it.
jello5929 @ 197
Demaf54publicans
Millineryman @ 201
Hey, MM. I guess the rot goes all the way down…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 139
She was swiftboated in the sense that Russert was after her as well as the other candidates. No candidate in a debate should have to debate the moderator. That is just plain wrong. And chickenshit.
torture legal ‘there’
torture legal ‘elsewhere’
torture legal ‘gitmo’
torture legal ‘airplane rendition’
torture legal
tri-county mall ‘holding’ cells?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 201
Are you saying?
You don’t agree with Israeli govt policies.
Anti semites don’t agree with Israeli govt policies.
Therefore, you are an anti semite.
??
Oklahoma kiddo @ 189
Whew, ya had me going there for a moment… :P
Oklahoma kiddo @ 200
No, OKK, if you don’t agree with the policies of the Israeli government, that makes you an anti-Zionist.
Hello– I am a devoted lurker, and have posted only once before– but tonight I have to ask: I logged on to FDL a few hours ago, and there seemed to leap up a posting about Kucinich and Impeachment, complete with a graphic– but instantly it disappeared! I have looked several times, but it never came back. What happened? Did someone write about this, and then was there a decision not to run it? I find it strange, not to see more concentrated discussion of Kucinich’s effort here– so that brief and disappearing image was tantalizing. Did I imagine it? (I Love FireDogLake, by the way!)
Marilyn In Texas @ 207
Not hardly.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 156
What are those positions?
Loo Hoo. @ 205
Damn right, Loo Hoo.
my bold
Loo Hoo. @ 212
You don’t know?
char @ 209
i just got here but will check… sometimes, when a front pager is working on a post, they will accidently publish instead of saving it as a draft. that may be what you saw – a work in progress
(now that you have delurked, ya can’t go back to being silent again)
Marilyn In Texas @ 207
Link you asked for previously:
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/eo/eo2.htm
char @ 210
Aloha, Char! Careful, it’s hard to relurk after delurking… 8-)
char @ 210
Welcome char.
Quick eye, this one…
newtonusr @ 213
Some folks like swiftboating. Some prefer triangulating.
Dagnabbit! Suz, would have to beat me to the punch… ;-)
CTuttle @ 219
suz has something to say about that when late nite posts
Oklahoma kiddo @ 218
Same-o, Same-o…
CTuttle @ 220
That’s the mark of a good detective ;-)
Thanks for the welcome, Newton and CTuttle! Well, I’m an early to bed one, so will have to check in tomorrow to see if there’s an answer to my mystery! I can see there are at least a few firepups who are ardent impeachment advocates– and a few who are not. I know there isn’t much hope for making it happen, but I feel it’s our only real protection against being tossed into another war– and I love DK for his courage and his intelligence! ‘Night all!
Steve-AR @ 132
that’s why one should shoot for a post-tenure impeachment…getting the process started by this Congress and then carrying out the actual Senate Trial after the 2008 Elections.
Here is the case for a “post-tenure” election.
The Case For A Post-Tenure Impeachment
The punishment described in the Constitution for impeachment includes not just removal from office, but also “disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.” That is, a successful impeachment does not say merely “Get out!” to a sitting President; it adds an emphatic “And stay out!” While removal becomes moot after a President leaves office, disqualification does not.
Finally, on a historical note, Secretary of War William Belknap was unanimously impeached by the House in 1876 shortly after he had resigned. The Senate took up the trial, voted on whether they had jurisdiction over an ex-official, and decided by a majority vote that they did. Belknap was nevertheless acquitted, largely because he had already left. This was a determination that Belknap should not have been convicted, not that he could not have been. The Senate voted definitively on the latter point, and provided the only precedent one way or the other on this question.
Start the process now, begin the investigations in support of the process, establish the possibility that the Presidential pardons may not be Constitutional while he is being impeached, and then spring the trap on Bush and Cheney after the have left office when there is a substantial Democratic majority in both Houses of Congress after the 2008 landslides.
Can it be late nite already?
TRex is upstairs.
Sorry, I don’t know how to do a link.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 165
Clinton will vote against Mukasey.
Loo Hoo. @ 228
I would definitely vote for her over Schumer or DiFi then.
Hmmm. @ 85
Loo Hoo. @ 228
I am aware that the Senator indicated that a while back.
Thanks, Loo Hoo for your commentary on Russert debating (or trying to) Hillary. I also noticed a smile, maybe smirk, on his face. He knew he was being a bully and enjoyed it.
We have another year plus three months to live through this shitty dictatorship.
My partner was so depressed about it on Sunday, she decided not to go to a party, so I went by myself.
There I was cheered when our member of congress referred to Chimpy as an “asshole”, and everyone clapped, stomped feet and whistled.
Today I am depressed.
Wake me up when it’s over.
hawkseye @ 232
Alas, the people who run our media have lifetime appointments.
tbsa @ 133
tbsa @ 133
And your suggestion is? Go whimpering off in defeat? Bush can’t make a signing statement on laws he hasn’t been presented with. If he violates the laws its an impeachable offense.
Of course he could refuse to step down from office even if convicted of impeachable offenses or even criminal acts in the regular courts. He could declare martial law (illegally), suspend the Constitution, cancel the elections, and shut down Congress. He could begin arresting opponents. Does that mean we should cower and not try to defend the Constitution and our laws?
I hate to say it but there seems to be a LOT of individuals here who are simply determined to be so cynical about any efforts to challenge Bush that I begin to wonder if they are… well…trolls… or Republican moles to make everyone on the progressive blogs to throw up their hands in defeated frustration.
But I will tell these individuals, however they are, I WILL NOT BACK DOWN. I will continue to fight for the CONSTITUTION and the rule of law. I’m gonna continue to verbally hammer at these politicians who sell out our freedoms until they are sick of hearing any more of me. Then I’ll do it some more.
I’m not gonna Shut Up simply because Bush will play Musharraf.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 214
smoke, grease smeared across the eyeball, cries before dawn, thundering hooves, etc…
CTuttle @ 127
Seems a lot of people trying to do that recently. Seems they want to discourage our EFFORTS. But not offering any other reasonable alternatives.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 214
No, explicky?
Hey, char!
cinnamonape @ 236
My problem is that I just haven’t seen a whole lot of evidence that the Democrats are willing to play hardball – at least not against Republicans.
I think all the strategies we’ve talked about in this thread sound great. I despair of the Democrats actually trying them, but by God I wish they would.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 139
OK Kiddo…can you tell what are Edwards’ and Obama’s positions on Drivers Licenses for Undocumented Immigrants? Do they believe that they should receive them if they pass a driving test? If not what options do they have?
My understanding is that Hillary is agreeable in general to Spitzer’s plan, and that decision is the Governor’s perogative…not he Presidents.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 156
Would the same be true of an Edwards supporter? I was surprised by his comments at the Herzliya Conference in Israel where he gave his vision of the Middle East and Iran in regards to Israel. He could have almost have been a Neo-Con (almost, not quite)
Throughout his career and public service Sharon has shown courage, including his historic decision to evacuate Gaza. More than anyone else, Sharon has, in my judgment, believed that a strong Israel is a safe Israel and that Israel needs to defend itself against security threats.
… One source of strength is the bond between Israel and the United States, which is a bond that will never be broken. For more than half a century both countries have benefited from this alliance. We share common values such as freedom and democracy. I was in Israel in 2001 and I’ll never forget just as I was ending my visit, a Hamas suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt blew up the Sbarro pizzeria. It made an impact on me to see the extraordinary sacrifice made by the Israeli people everyday. They continue to make sacrifices to ensure your security and achieve peace. I saw firsthand the threats you face every day. I feel that I understand on a very personal level those threats. The challenges in your own backyard – rise of Islamic radicalism, use of terrorism, and the spread of nuclear technology and weapons of mass destruction – represent an unprecedented threat to the world and Israel.
At the top of these threats is Iran. Iran threatens the security of Israel and the entire world. Let me be clear: Under no circumstances can Iran be allowed to have nuclear weapons. For years, the US hasn’t done enough to deal with what I have seen as a threat from Iran. As my country stayed on the sidelines, these problems got worse. To a large extent, the US abdicated its responsibility to the Europeans. This was a mistake. The Iranian president’s statements such as his description of the Holocaust as a myth and his goals to wipe Israel off the map indicate that Iran is serious about its threats.
Once Iran goes nuclear, other countries in the Middle East will go nuclear, making Israel’s neighborhood much more volatile.
Iran must know that the world won’t back down. The recent UN resolution ordering Iran to halt the enrichment of uranium was not enough. We need meaningful political and economic sanctions. We have muddled along for far too long. To ensure that Iran never gets nuclear weapons, we need to keep ALL options on the table, Let me reiterate – ALL options must remain on the table.
The war in Lebanon had Iranian fingerprints all over it. I was in Israel in June, and I took a helicopter trip over the Lebanese border. I saw the Hezbollah rockets, and the havoc wreaked by the extremism on Israel’s border. Hezbollah is an instrument of the Iranian government, and Iranian rockets allowed Hezbollah to attack and wage war against Israel.
I cannot talk about the war last summer without referring to the Syrian role in destabilizing area. Syria needs to be held accountable. Syria has recently called for peace talks with Israel. Talk is cheap. Syria needs to go long way to prove it is ready for peace. It can start by not harboring terrorists and ending its nefarious relationship with Iran.
While Iran is the greatest threat now, but just as alarming is the one on your doorstep. Hamas, with Iranian support, doesn’t make any mistake of its intentions to wipe out Israel, and repeatedly makes calls to raise the banner of Allah over all of Israel.
Israel made many concessions. Many settlers gave up there land in order to advance peace. Israel can take more steps to advance peace like bolstering Abbas against Hamas. ,b>While Israel is willing to go back to negotiating table, little has been seen on the Palestinian side. We instead have seen chaos and violence on the street, and no revocation of violence against Israel.
For peace, Israel needs a partner. Absent this partnership, Israel not only has the right to defend itself, it has an obligation to defend itself. This means continuing to ensure Israel’s military strength, diplomatically and economically. The hurdles are clear.
For too long, the current US administration’s commitment to this issue has been halfhearted. Now, on the backdrop of Iraq, they have tried to bring the two sides together. This is especially significant since they have squandered America’s moral authority in the Middle East and around the world.
We should be finding ways to upgrade Israel’s relationship with NATO. This could even some day mean membership. NATO’s mission now goes far beyond just Europe. Therefore, it is only natural that NATO seeks to include Israel.
Your challenges are our challenges. Your future is our future. The US will continue to stand by you. God bless you.
And what about the General Election. Do we require that our candidate must conform to our own positions on all points? Or do we contrast the candidates positions, pinch or nose, and pray that the person we are voting for is amenable to conversion?
cinnamonape @ 241