Voting No:
– Leahy
– Biden
– Kennedy
– Kohl
– Feingold
– Durbin
– Cardin
– Whitehouse
Voting Yes:
– Feinstein
– Schumer
– Specter
– Hatch
–Grassley
– Kyl
– Sessions
– Graham
– Cornyn
– Brownback
– Coburn
Of note:
– Arlen Specter comes as close to calling Mukasey a liar for his “not familiar with waterboarding” comment as any GOP Senator has come — callng it a “flimsy excuse” to duck it by saying he wasn’t read into the program and “reluctant to put people at risk.” But because Mukasey thinks signing statements aren’t his fave, Specter voted yes. (And yes, I can hear EmptyWheel screaming Scottish Haggis. Why do you ask?)
– Sen. Kennedy: “Civilian and military leaders have found waterboarding to be an unacceptable means of torture.” See here for some history on just how many times this has been found, repeatedly, to be illegal under American and international law. Kennedy quotes the head of the Seal training saying, “…when done right, it is controlled death,” and that it is horrifying to watch.
– Orrin Hatch? Still a jerk. His whole argument is prefaced on how long the nomination has been discussed — and then gives a rah rah discussion of torture and tries to make anyone who finds it morally repugnant into a political hack — “a politically correct position on waterboarding.” Um…hello?!? What is this, the 12th century? Personally, I find that beyond morally repugnant. For shame.
– Kohl: “It is and has always been illegal, unconstitutional, and morally wrong.”
– Feinstein: Gosh, thank goodness Mukasey isn’t Gonzales…yadda yadda yadda…please don’t hate me.
– Huckleberry Graham: “Tempted to say nice things about Feinstein, but don’t want to hurt you back home.” To which DiFi smiles broadly. Thinks Mukasey is a man of the law, not politics. [CHS notes: I'd like to hope so, but hey, since torture is illegal...I'm skeptical, to put it mildly.] See Hugh for more.
– Feingold: “Never again should [the DOJ] be led by someone who is willing to wield its awesome power for political purposes or to fill its most important positions with individuals chosen for their politics rather than their legal skills.” Calls out the unilateral executive theories as being contrary to Justice Jackson’s Youngstown opinion, stating that Congressional power and written law constrain the executive. Calls the Bush Administration out for lying that there hasn’t been vigorous objection to the CIA interrogation program — says that he feels it is highly legally questionable and puts Americans at risk.
– Brownback: Thinks that the ticking bomb scenarios in 24 are realistic issues that Presidents have to deal with, based on a question he was asked at a GOP debate…lord help us.
– Schumer: The DOJ is floundering and rudderless, and needs a strong leader to right it: thinks Mukasey is the one to do so. If we don’t get someone in the job that isn’t under Cheney and Addington’s thumb, we might as well throw up our hands and surrender everything we hold dear. (CHS notes: If you read the Schumer op-ed today, you know what he’s saying.)
– Durbin: Mukasey is clear on matters of the law in every instance, but one: torture/waterboarding.
– Cardin: Waterboarding is clearly illegal. Hedging on this issue is appalling.
– Whitehouse: Agrees that Mukasey is highly qualified and that he is probably quite independent. But he has a hesitation when he says that, and it is due to his difficulty in answering a direct question regarding waterboarding. Is that a display of reasonable judicial reticence, or a product of Bush White House vetting? That he was told by them that this was a “no fly zone.” The DOJ — clearly there are grave issues at the DOJ, and it is urgent that capable and honest leadership be put there. America is strengthened when it follows its laws and manifests its values. This is vitally important. We cannot look to this Administration to provide any moral clarity to the world in terms of our conduct. When Cheney gets on television and says that we do not torture, not only do people around the world believe that we do torture, but also that we lie. [CHS: bingo.] This is a slow, sickening slide from a city on a hill — we have compromised our values, we have degraded our Constitution, we have lost our standing in the world.
Nomination will now go out to the full Senate. Committee in recess.
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Christy!
Not one vote surprises me. Not Schumer’s. Not DiFi’s.
Tell Chucky and the DSCC to @#@#@#-off!! When they call looking for money.
DiFi is Bush’s most useful democratic idiot.
We are led by spineless corporate whores who all need to be thrown out.
Any means of torture are unacceptable. I nominate OKKiddo for US AG!
This is absolutely abhorrent.
What is the specific wording of the oath that Mukasey must swear to take the job? I’m especially interested in the part about avoidance of embarrassment and legal jeopardy for senior officials.
This thing needs to be filibustered. Chris? Russ? Ted?
anyone from NY or CA care to weigh in and support their fascist enabling senators?
i will NEVER support either of them again… not that it matters much. they’re too busy counting their AIPAC money to be concerned with such niggling matters like civil rights and torture.
When will the Democrats in congress realize that they can either hold this Administration accountable now, or they can all face war crimes tribunals together after World War III?
So then. What are the ramifications?
i want to highlight this little gem from yesterday’s froomkin. how fortunate for the white house that chuck schumer was so eager to work with them to mislead the senate judiciary committee. i’d love to know what the final pricetag was for schumer to betray his oath of office to defend the constitution. bet he came cheap:
“One Democratic aide said Schumer gave the administration guidance about what Mukasey should include in a letter to Democrats on waterboarding. The letter included some of the elements but fell short in key areas, stoking the controversy, the aide said.”
As I said in the last thread: It’ll be interesting to see which Dems vote Yes when this gets to the Senate floor.
The weeping Blessed Mother. Perfect photo! This should become the alternate to the Statue of Liberty. Liberty is gone. Weeping Madonna is here.
And so it continues to get harder to argue that we are not the new “good Germans.”
wfeather @ 6
Which oath, the Oath of Office or the Oath to the President (the one Sara Taylor took)?
Kevster @ 7
There were 70 solid votes for confirmation prior to the SJC vote..no filibuster was possible.
Dianne Feinstein is a democrat in name only. She is beholden to the military for the multi-million dollar contracts they pass to her husband, and is therefore a Bush-enabler.
Legalized Torture?
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..e-now.html
Have a Nice Uday!
(some adult content)
Shorter DiFi: Waterboarding is important, but not that important.
This absolutely sucks…But it nows go to the floor right?
Kevster @ 3
Feinstein’s hubby is a defense contractor exec. who do you really think she’s going to support? the peace movement?
fuck her and schumer.
Biodun @ 11
Oh, it will be the usual cavalcade of Bush Dogs: Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, Salazar et al; but now with DiFi and Chucky on board they could get 60-65 votes as all the other yellow-backed cowards who will run for cover.
I’m sick of these goddam deluded spineless cowards who continually refuse to fight this worst of all administartions. They just SUCK and they are not getting another fucking dime from me.
If Mukasey is confirmed, what possible Bush situations can he enable?
Robert @ 16
DiFi has always been in the corporate end of the Democratic party, going back at least as far as her days on the SF Board of Supervisors in the 1970s. In the battles between big downtown developers and local neighborhood folks, she generally backed the developers. On issues pitting mangagement and labor, she generally sided with management.
What Kevster said.
seems about high time for a south park episode on fascism.
I’ve been emailing and calling DiFi and Chuckie for days now.
This is disgusting. Turns my stomach. And I hope they keep showing the tape of waterboarding on a loop, like KO did, so that Americans who haven’t been paying attention until now see what the criminal cabal has been up to.
Every request for Democratic funds will be “returned to sender” with a homemade sticker which says “Waterboarding is Torture”.
Code Pink causing a stink!!
I can’t believe Mukasey gets away with saying he doesn’t know what’s involved in water boarding…has anybody pointed out in plain terms that this is obviously a ridiculous lie and that the last AG is gone because he couldn’t be believed?
What I want to know are what are the sound reasons that Feinstein and Schumer support Mr. Mukasey.
Historical Uses of Waterboarding:
The Spanish Inquisition
Colonial Times (by the Dutch India Company)
World War II
Algerian War
Vietnam War
Khmer Rouge
US War on Terror (added by me)
Dianne Feinstein trying to rationalize her support of torture.
Why do all these goofs bring up if Congress should pass an explicit law against torture? A) The Congress has done this in the past. B) Bush will veto any such new law.
What gets me about The Republicans, Feinstein and Schumer is that they don’t have the cojones to say they support torture which they in fact do.
I still find it incredible that the opposition to Mukasey is so focused on a particular torture practice rather than torture itself or the role of an elected executive vis a vis the rule of law. How do we now define civilised peoples?
Eleven members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have abrogated their oath to the Constitution of the United States.
IOW, business as usual for most of them.
Spiritcatcher @ 25
Or perhaps an episode of Supernatural where the boys discover Dick Cheney is really a high-level Demon who can only be banished by being struck with Woody Guthrie’s guitar.
Hey all, I have a big staff meeting today. The organization I work for has the mission statement to end racism and empower women. No one seem particularly interested in the national scene. At the end of our staff meetings we have a few minutes to “share about a book or something we have read that adds knowlege to our cause.” I want to give a scpeal about the book “the shock doctrine” and also Susan Faludi’s new book. I want to remind folks about blogging for national news. Who has some ideas that will help my little speech be just a tad more persuasive and creative than usual. I am a strong speaker but I want to say something that might be a tad more motivating. I thought about bring up Barbara Jordan and her speech on the constitution…I want to make that connection without getting overly political about the need for us to pay attention to and guard our constituion.
Ideas??? You brilliant bunch of thinkers, you…???
“DiFi has always been in the corporate end of the Democratic party…”. Is “corporate end of the Democratic Party” the same as the DLC?
So now the question is: “Should the Senate Democrats vote to confirm Mukasey as Attorney General?”
Cast ye vote at The Poll Vault.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
I think it was a bumper sticker they saw at the White House:
AG Mukasky: Because we couldn’t get Torquemada.
Kind of sums it up.. We need to turn over at least twenty percent of our own D senators in order to restore our Democracy to the point of simply being one which does not torture.
It’s time to kick DiFi and Chuck out form under our umbrella and make them stand under the elephant where they belong.
And let’s remind ourselves, warts and all:
(Same link as my 30.)
What I notice in all the discussion of the Mukasey nomination in recent weeks is a clue that the guilty parties in the Bush administration are scared shitless about the possibility of prosecution for their war crimes. They have gone to extraordinary lengths to try to legitimize waterboarding, and I don’t think it’s because they believe that torture is an effective intelligence-gathering tool. They are worried.
jackie @ 20
There will be no floor fight.
The Hill
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
You might say DiFi was DLC before there was a DLC.
Di Fi ’s war profiteering is on Project Censored’s list for 2008.
I mentioned this yesterday, but there you are..
katie Jensen @ 36
Katie,
This isn’t about the Faludi book, but you might want to have them read this article from the Boston Globe so you can be really depressed.
Incredible.
Feinstein and Schumer must think they have some kind of firewall against what must be coming their way.
Eureka Springs @ 40
elephant umbrella
Dear DiFi
Don’t hate you????
YOU ARE A FRIGGIN ABOMINATION.
Sorry all I just had to get it out.
scpeal…hmmm. that should have said schpeel.
I’m not watching the speeches, but I just want to post some Sheldon Whitehouse love. We need more leaders like him. He gives me hope that terrific Democrats are out there to support and uphold our nation’s laws and principles.
No surprises this morning.
I’d rather have been surprised, except, with this Congress, it would probably have been worse.
Graham up and sounding like he is on drugs. Thanks Feinstein and Schumer for their collusion. Then goes off on a bizarre tangent where he says that waterboarding and lack of habeas corpus would be condemned by the Senate if it happened to captured American soldiers.
So why the hell did he vote for Mukasey? Drunk, on drugs, psychotic? You choose.
isn’t my boy arlin great . He not only screws us over but always plays the two face card to the max,always acts like one day he will surprise us and vote to represent the democratic majority of Pa.Trick me how many times???
Prolefeed @ 29
The point is that AG is gone because he couldn’t wrap his lies in a cloak of dignified respectability, and the beltway demands “respectability.” It’s all about keeping up appearances, and AGAG was looking like a thug.
It may be cynical, but Murkasey makes no difference..David Addington is calling the shots and the front-man is just that.
What do we do? They don’t care what Americans think anymore. It’s all what the corporations want. They play us at election time then swing back to ignoring us. And as soon as rigging elections is perfected, we’re out completely. Someone at DKos is going to stop paying taxes. Very scary. I keep hearing about a general strike but it gets no momentum. I’m at a loss.
Looking at folks like Feinstein and Schumer, and assuming I might propose a purge of folks like these from the Democratic Party, might leave me exposed to criticism.
Hmmm, I wonder if Schumer’s going to show up at big orange again to have a “discussion” with everyone about topics? Oh, he doesn’t have another new book coming out? Then I guess he won’t be available to chat with the little people.
Morning all.
Isn’t anyone still concerned also that Mukasey stated the Prez. could follow the rule of law, or not, upon his own whim?!
Put that together with torture, and whaddaygot?!
*puts head back under pillow, but sets alarm clock for going out to vote, fwiw*
A question…
I know there is a Senate tradition by which home-state Senators can put a “hold” on judicial nominees. Does this practice hold for other offices…and if so, can Clinton be pressured to put a “hold” on Mukasey?
One might say Chimpy and Darth have violated the US Constitution:
But this will be their justification:
My bold. (Same link as my posts above.)
Cardin has a constituent family of a tortured (shhh, it’s a secret) Guantanamo detainee. Saw it on TPM.
OK
the vote was 11 for, 8 against.
Does this mean that DiFi and Chuckie could’ve voted against and he’d still have passed?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
no objections from this quarter.
What I don’t understand is why Arlen Specter keeps running his mouth! He always tells us just enough to know that he knows better than the way he votes, but he betrays his own philosophy every time anyway. He would be far better off politically, it would seem, to just vote the way he’s going to anyway, and keep his mouth shut so that we all think he’s voting his conscience. At least then he might garner some admiration or respect for having integrity, even though he’s stupid. Now he looks smart but smarmy and corrupt.
Is that pix at the top an impression of the Holy Mother?
As Dianne Feinstein unconvincingly tries to cover her amoral tracks, with Russ Feingold’s disgusted head bowed in the background:
A political party which tolerates such moral pariahs as Dianne Feinstein and Charles Schumer in its midst, the latter of whom is third in line in the party’s leadership, has simply lost any claim to the support of a “base” among the American people, who will rightly reject such torture-friendly political party “values” by repudiating them in any way possible. Our limited options include unregistering from the party, and refusing to vote. That is not the choice “activists” will necessarily make; that is the choice uninvolved, overwhelmed citizens will make to send a message the only way they can.
And as The Hill is already reporting, the Democratic Senate Rules (simple 51-vote majority required for White House nominees and Republican initiatives, the 60-vote threshold suddenly somehow magically vanished) are being swiftly put into place by the moral pariahs’ biggest enabler, the corrupt, fearful Harry Reid – who is exerting peer pressure on Senators not to repudiate the unprincipled action of supporting this despicable nomination, but who is instead pressuring Senators to repudiate principled action by not announcing a hold or a filibuster to at least slow down Mukasey’s nomination. A no-roadblock craven and cowardly peer pressure process which Pat Leahy just accommodated by ensuring that no Senator would move to ‘hold over’ the committee vote today, when he forced an early roll call to ensure that that couldn’t happen.
Registered Democrats Joseph Lieberman, Charles Schumer, and Dianne Feinstein: Three Israeli partisans who care only for “me and mine,” the vital humanitarian principle of “never again” for anyone be damned.
RickinSF @ 63
No – don’t forget it’s a zero sum game. So it would have been 9 for, 10 against
Feingold up now.
Mukasey will de-politicize the DOJ. Never again should an AG appoint for their politics. Mukasey intends to be a much more hands-on manager of death penalty cases. If confirmed, I look forward to working with him. In many respects Mukasey is better than previous, but not good enough. Mukasey will not tell the Pres that he’s not above the law. On warrantless wiretapping, the AUMF did not authorize it-then changed statement to don’t know, is somehow “agnostic” no more.Mukasey believes Article 2 authority trumps the law.
RickinSF @ 64
Then it would’ve been 10 for, 9 against.
Ann in AZ @ 65:
You’re absolutley right. He always makes a convincing argument for not doing what he eventually ends up doing. He’s schizoid in the least.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
Yes. Weeping.
Is there a place where these people who are not clear whether or not waterboarding is torture could go to experience it themselves?
Note: I am NOT advocating violence, I’m advocating asking our confused Congress members to voluntarily enter into a teaching experience, so that they can stand boldly before their constituents and declare that they completely understand it now…
(Yeah, yeah, I know, but I can dream can’t I?)
Steve-AR @ 56
Mukasey’s whole song and dance on torture and the unilateral Executive should have shown everyone that Mukasey is not the independent actor he pretends to be and is portrayed as. So I agree Addington and Cheney are pulling his strings and this is all kabuki.
It is Charlie Brown with the football all over again. The SJC is given a disastrous nominee and knowing exactly how bad he is they approve him anyway.
Maybe it is time for some more clever photoshops.
Don’t you love how Huckleberry Graham gave DiFi cover?
And again, look how the press is portraying this: As if both sides are equally valid at best, or as if the pro-torture, pro-Bush side is totally in the right at worst. No wonder why most Americans don’t see this as such an urgent issue the way we do.
Helen @ 69
D’oh!
Need I say I ain’t a math whizz?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
Lady Justice…
Adie @ 65
When the Revolution comes…
solai @ 57
A psychopathic President supported by fundies and neo-cons is not good for business. I suspect the folks in the board rooms are a little nervous. Boo-fucking-hoo; they and their MSM media outlets got us in this mess..they need to be held accountable.
RickinSF @ 63
No, that would have made it 10-9 against.
Committee reality is that if the majority party can hold the line, they win. Dems have 10 on SJC, Reps have 9.
That’s why some feel Chuck and DiFI are stabbing their colleagues and party in the back, even though that is secondary to the fact that they are stabbing the Constitution and their constituents in the back.
Three Democrats, or so-called Democrats, have robbed the American people and the Democratic Party of the victory of American voters over growing corporate-friendly fascism – Joe Lieberman, Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein. They deserve to go down in the annals of our government next to Rep. Preston Brooks and Chief Justice Roger Taney.
1,650 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
OK…now where does this go from here, is Feingold gunna get Dodd’s back and hold the caucus tagether for a filibuster? It’s time ta say that the only way ta get the Democratic Party goin’ in the right direction is with new congressional leadership and larger majorities. If we could get Edwards/Gore in the Whitehouse that would jest about cinch it but absent that what are the chances of startin with a filibuster to challenge One Hung Harry Reid and put the pressure on the progressives in the caucus ta put up this time if they want a shot at leadership in ‘09?
And what is bein’ planned fer Representative Mcnerney…seems that ActBlue loses a lotta credibility with folks like me if somethin’ can’t be done ta challenge that bastard in the primary.
KEEP THE FAITH AND FIGURE OUT WHO YER FRIENDS ARE!!
cc in nc @ 71
Nope: 9 for, 10 against. It would have failed.
Classic Specter is to talk tough then vote Republican (his only exception was Clinton’s impeachment)
And if I could vote against Feinstein or Schumer, I would. This vote for Mukasey is a tacit approval of torture, plain and simple.
It’s a sorry day for the US.
Biodun @ 12
Apparently Reid’s going on the idea that Mukasey’s better than the Bush hires running DoJ now (and probably better than anyone else Bush is likely to appoint), and that there’s only so much damage he can do between now and January of 2009.
Is Leahy texting someone on his Blackberry?
DiFi justified her vote as “this is the best we’re going to get from Bush.”
Well, with that reasoning George could have renominated Gonzales and she still would have voted yes. Here’s an idea, Diane and Chuck, DEMAND BETTER!
I voted today in our local elections. Change comes slow sometimes. But it will come.
Pow wow you left out arlin He works so hard to fit in with cousin joe
Phoenix Woman @ 85
Sorry, that’s what I meant.
Jacques @ 80
…it will not be televised.
It WILL, however, be live-blogged and webcast..
Phoenix Woman @ 84
707! PW to the rescue…
sammy1 @ 86
A-yep. Him and McCain and Hagel and all the other GOP “mavericks” always seem to fall meekly in line behind Bush when it counts. Always.
Remember when it was considered nearly treasonous to say that you were ‘ashamed’ of this country. Everyone had to change it to ‘embarassed’ to avoid a political onslaught. Well…I am ashamed. God damn them for doing this.
Maybe Schumer and Feinstein aren’t spineless, maybe, like Dersherwits, they are pro-torture. Maybe they don’t want congressional subpoenas enforced. Maybe they don’t want the truth to come out.
Maybe it is time to recruit primary challenges.
Phoenix Woman @ 87
I see more as pure reflex. He would cave regardless. It is what he does and who he is.
So moron Brownback is worried about a mall being bombed with a nuclear weapon? He better worry about a city being bombed with a nuclear weapon.
p.lukasiak @ 60
It’s been done on a whole host of nominations, by folks in both parties, and not just judicial nominees.
A hold amounts to saying that a given senator plans to object to some “unanimous consent” measure, leading up to the consideration of the nominee. The Senate Website has a good summary up on its page about the legislative process.
BTW — Thanks for the great three part series (One, Two, and Three) over at Down With Tyranny on the Media and the Primary Process.
And BTW, so much for Schumer’s “logic”:
Alice @ 96
Or maybe someone’s got some dirt on them?
Maybe the place needs to be fumigated, just to make sure they get rid of all the bugs?
Isn’t Brownback Opus Dei? Is he wearing his cilice and hairshirt? He probably thinks that the Inquisition had the right idea.
Difi and Huckleberry
she has always done well with sexually ambiguous men.
OT, but perhaps not. Last night, I was in my local Barnes and Noble and found, on a table, a little book of the US Constitution/Declaration of Independence and some other items important to us all. $4.95 each; hardbound with a slip cover. Very nice. I picked off 4 copies and got them. Everyone in my family gets a copy this year for the holidays with a note that says, “Commit this to memory before Bush and Cheney makes it illegal to own a copy.”
The publisher is Barnes and Noble.
We need someone to photo shop the Statue of Liberty being waterboarded.
Phoenix Woman @ 87
And he is probably right..Murkasey was going to be confirmed no matter the outcome of the SJC vote. I suspect the voting was worked out behind the curtain.
I’m not able to watch. C-Span2 is frozen on my TV and the 10 channels above seem to have been knocked off the air.
I’m okay with this.
My outrage meter blew up years ago, and the parts have been ground into dust by the crush of bad news and disasters de jour.
If Mukasey can stop the hemorrhaging of dedicated career employees at the DoJ, and begin restoring morale and an apolitical hiring process, that is a good thing.
Sad to say, anything that is not a further Bush degradation is a good thing at this point in time.
I am constantly amazed at the number of people who support the use of violence to “punish” bad behavior. You would think that one look at our penal system would be enough for any intelligent brain to conclude that punishment is not how you change or shape behavior. Unfortunately way too many american’s get angry and support the use of power and control. My bet is that there is a divide between those who use and perpetuate power and control as a “method” of change and those who do not. It clearly does not work, whether you read the american pediatrics association on spanking children and the years of research that shows it’s ineffectiveness, or whether you are reading about the use of capital punishment. This nation is violent. It has a violent history of which we are often in denial. When we are our best we revert back to the words of the constitution and nature, god, biology, physics blesses us…because only then are we walking a path of truth and effectivness.
It has to stop…but the denial about violence is just as contagious here, as it is in the middle east.
Peterr @ 38
Hugh @ 101
So the bumpersticker was on Brownback’s car?
Toby Wollin @ 104
Thanks for this. I will be sending copies to my elected (wimpy) Democrats this week.
If you mean whiskey, that wrecker of families, destroyer of lives, then ah’m agin it.
But if you mean whiskey, that soother of man’s troubled spirit, that warm friend on a cold winter’s night, then ah’m fer it.
[baldly–and badly–translated from somewhere. Huey Long, maybe? ‘twould figure.]
Crappo on the idiots who voted yes.
Very sad day for America.
The thugs have won.
Pitiful.
Mukasey stated that “torture is illegal.” Had he admitted that waterboarding is torture and then become , he would have jeopardized the ability of the Bushites to use the good-faith defense — “I was acting in good-faith on assurance that waterboarding was legal.” — with regard to future waterboardings. He has participated in enabling the continued practice of waterboarding, which changes his moral status and possibly his legal status under international law: http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..inals.html
pow wow @68
yep, and about time time, too. The false choice between the two hideous disfiguring diseases this country has for political parties needs to be discarded. it doesn’t matter if one is the least worst. get healthy instead.
The waterboarding issue is major in my mind. Unfortunately- stopping this nomination would do nothing to stop it. As a practical matter- this guy is the best Clusterfuck will nominate- if the nomination goes down he’ll just stick to his fascist appointee for the balance of his term…
Schumer’s logic is correct in my mind- but I can also see the point in making a political statement with the nomination.
Schumer talking out of both sides of his mouth.
He says we are on a brink of a reversal. How will Addington’s puppet do that?
Oh gee, Schumer is against torture. So why is he voting for Mukasey? What a weasel!
Toby Wollin @ 104
I think I’ll make a run there myself. One to keep as a memento, the other to black out what we’ve lost.
A two-fer day. Feinstein/Schumer. ’nuff said.
Morning Joe busily launching resuscitation of Joe McCarthy this morning, complete with demonizing of Hollywood “commies.”
Even John Roberts is better than that. Fortunately for sanity, there is the Beeb.
And, one hopes, the soon-to-be RFD.
If there is a bill in congress that makes it clear that waterboarding is torture and is thus illegal, how many goopers would vote against it? Not many in my opinion.
I’m going to say this only once today: violent assertions in comments will be deleted, and can get you banned. I hope that is clear enough for everyone.
Yes, this is difficult to discuss without losing your temper. But do not become the thing you despise.
-ck- @ 108
I understand your battle fatigue, but the larger point here is that it is a monumental “further Bush degradation”.
It validates a firewall. It creates a road map to show future executives how, when they break the law, they can get Congress to make it ok.
rwcole @ 117
At the risk of violating Godwin’s law, it is like saying we should accept Goring because Himmler would be worse.
One Good Thing:
Mukasky will be forever linked to OKing torture.
I don’t think he realize how bad this will be yet. Bush’s muck sticks to everything it touches.
Biodun @ 100
Also, waterboarding is already illegal under about ten different statutes and senate-ratified treaties (which are “the supreme law of the land,” per Article VI): http://balkin.blogspot.com/#6805640633721729080 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..70_pf.html
Hugh
If this guy can do a little good- and the alternative guy will make things worse- and they are the only two alternatives, then which would you pick?
rwcole @ 122
They should have done that first and then asked Mukasey if he would enforce it or would he allow a signing statement to void it. It’s all kabuki.
BTW Schumer in his speech was paraphasing his op-ed in the Times.
rwcole @ 121
If there is a bill in congress that makes pi = 2 and Bush says this minor mathematical adjustment is necessary in order to keep the country safe from terrorists, how many goopers would vote against it. Not many in my opinion.
RW, after listening to the GOP members of the Judiciary committee, I think you’ll hear about forty versions of “We can’t tie the hands of the folks making our country safe.”
And all Bush needs are 34 to sustain a veto.
Other than the certainty of a Bush veto of a wwaterboarding law, there’s another reason it would be ineffective:
Ops contrary to law is what the CIA is for. If you doubt this, I will refer you to former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke, in his book Against All Enemies, recalling an incident in the White House during the Clinton Administration. The White House had intelligence on the location of Osama bin Laden, and the decision was being undertaken as to whether to attempt to kill him. Late to the meeting, Vice President Al Gore was hurriedly advised that an attempt was feasible, but contrary to international law. Gore’s response? “Of course it’s against international law-that’s why it’s covert!”
This is why passing a law against waterboarding will be ineffective, regardless of a veto or not, IMO.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 123
Thank you
OT – sorry Christy
I will be heading to Seattle on Friday so
Seattle Firepup Meetup on Saturday, November 10, 2007
11:00am – 1:00pm
Uptown Espresso
2504 4th Ave. (4th & Wall)
Seattle, WA
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=6872570027
If you are in the area please join us, if you know anyone who is in the area let them know. Thanks
I am upset with certain members of my party.
Hey Chuck: Can you run that by me again?
itwasntme @ 126
Exactly. He may think he’s won – but in terms of reputation, standing, credibilty, etc. he really lost.
katie Jensen @ 109
Don’t be amazed. Think of the genocide we perpetrated on the Native Americans. Slavery. Lynch mobs. Violent state suppression of labor and civil rights protests.
Finding an “other” to blame, punish and/or abuse is as American as apple pie.
katymine @ 133
Nice little coffee shop, katymine. Wish I could be there. I think they’re wifi…
Jacques @ 80
I’m too
oldmature and wayyy too angry to have much room for fear any more. And I’m too stubborn to give up just ’cause perps like arlen, difye, huckleberry ‘n chug-a-luck act like scum whenever it suits their fancy. thankgawd they broke the mold when orrin was hatched.I gotta go vote for a couple levies & hopefully functional-airies. Back in a bit.
One question: Why oh Why are the newzcritters acting confused at the electorate’s sour mood these days? Some kind soul should wake ‘em up.
The atmosphere is positively caustic everywhere in this once great land…. and for very good reasons which, nevertheless, seem to elude the perfectly-coiffed, vacant-headed nits as they read their pre-digested newslite.
FDL is a refuge of people who think, and act for the greater good. Thank you guys for that.
and so they have
Ed*ard Teller @ 83
I’m a NYer and ashamed, ASHAMED of Schumer. Forget all the talk, all the “need” for “leadership” at DOJ, and all Chuckie’s blathering. There is a bottom line here: Schumer has enabled torture, period.
rwcole @ 127
It’s a false choice. There is no indication that Keisler the Acting AG would act that much differently from Mukasey.
Where the difference lies is that Senate Democrats will make themselves complicit by approving Mukasey.
rwcole @ 117
This is the kind of reasoning that has slid the Democratic Party into irrelevancy over the past 15 years.
It leads to complacency and we’ll always be stuck with “that’s the best we can do,” or “the lesser of two evils” and so on. We need to demand better at all times.
As a wise man around here likes to say…ATTACCKKKKK!!!!
Durbin leaving some marks, IMHO.
Durbin calling Mukasey out on cherry-picking which legal opinions he was willing to assert an opinion on.
Durbin is nailing it.
Well, I’ve got to go on a trip up to Seattle, then on to Rochester & Toronto for business, & for the first time in a long while I will feel embarrassed to show my U.S. passport (why do I feel embarrassed when the people I’m watching right now on CSPAN3 never seem to, no matter what they pull).
Anyway, before leaving just wanted to say thank you, Christy, & thanks to all posters & commenters here @ FDL for all you do & all you are.
The impression is that violence is not acceptable. But civil disobedience is to be encouraged.
OT: Glenn Greenwald has posted a very interesting article on the Ron Paul phenomenon: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
Just got off the phone with Schumer’s office. Staffer didn’t sound stressed but I had a bout a minute of busy signals before being on hold for another three or four minutes.
As a former constituent and having voted for Schumer, I made sure they were aware that I still have family and friends who also vote.
I’m not holding my breath that I made a difference.
Marie Roget,
Bon voyage.
They’re still yakking about this in the Committee? Hot winds in the deep cave called the US Senate.
Hugh @ 150
Ditto.
Marie Roget: You’re in the film business, no? (Don’t ask me how I know.)
{{{Marie Roget}}}
-ck- @ 108
Pardon, do you mean degradation of or by Boosh?
To me, there’s still a heeeuuuuge difference.
Thanks, Hugh. Au ‘voir.
What?
You’ve got to be kidding…
Marie Roget @ 148
Rochester, MN? or Rochester, NY?
Biodun @ 153
Biodun: You’re with the NSA? (Oh wait — forget I asked that. You couldn’t tell me anyway.)
Robert @ 17
she is worse
SHE ADVOCATES TORTURE,AND DEATH period
Biodun @ 157
defining “filthy rich”…
Biodun @ 153
I think I know how you know ;-) I’m in film research & restoration right now.
Unfortunately, got to go, folks. Hang in there, all.
Biodun @ 157
I’m starting to think that Ron Paul is the Howard Dean of this year – in a good way. I can tell you that in my area, which tends to vote righty – the only signs I’m seeing on overpasses and lawns is: Ron Paul. No other GOP candidate-wannabee…just Ron.
Better to have DOJ occupied by an unconfirmed ‘interim’ lackey than to give tacit approval to a free pass for torturers and the people who defend them.
rwcole @ 121
It failed 53-46 before. I don’t know whether that was an up or down vote or a 60 vote requirement. So, to answer your question, at least 46 goopers would vote against it.
Marie Roget,
Safe travels! And yes…I believe I’d feel the same about showing my passport.
Peterr @ 158
I don’t do drugs. I do only information.
Whitehouse up now. A problem with Mukasey’s answers on waterboarding, wondering if Mukasey’s answers were vetted by WH. Grave issues at DOJ.I voted against Mukasey because the US had a “moment of clarity” on torture, and letting Mukasey do forward loses that. If Cheney says we don’t torture, the world knows we’re torturers and liars.We are a nation on a slow, sickening slide from being the “city on the hill”, which people died for.
pseudonymous in nc @ 164
yes
Tried to email DiFi this morning. Her website contact links aren’t working. I guess she’s tired of reading how she has yet again abandoned the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.
so mukasey is pretty much the new AG…and bush continues to get what he wants with dem acquiescence… we in jersey are voting today for state offices – i’d love to send a message to show my extreme displeasure with the national dems as they dont have a clue
Marie Roget @ 147
I just returned from a week or so in FreeLand. It was very refreshing. Enjoy yourself you will find no end of
bushfascist haters up there.“…people died for this stuff…”
Whitehouse is about to make me cry.
I think we have to believe that the Dem Senate and House leadership want to end the Republican nightmare. Assuming that elections are held in 11/08, that will happen with a Dem landslide. Making a wrong political move that could fuck up the ‘08 elections has got to keep these people up at night. With the Thugs controlling the MSM message, fucking up is a real fear and a real possibility. Reid et al have the fate of this country in their hands; I hope they are playing the cards correctly; with that in mind, I have a hard time throwing rocks from the side lines. In my previous life, when I would get strong opinions from people who didn’t have any responsibility for the outcome; I would call it ” the courage of the non-combatant”..a lot of that is going on in Dem political discussion.
p.lukasiak @ 61
I sent HRC email requesting that she place a hold on the nomination of Mukassey… got a form letter back thanking me for contacting her. Did not hold my breath. Also sent one to Ted Kennedy.
Well, Leahy was wrong to call it a ‘debate’. It was a brief period of shame followed by a longer interspersing of atrocious bullshit, ass-coverage and righteous impotence.
Jim Taylor @ 170
mebbe mine clogged her toobz yestidie. it was fairly plain-spoken, ahem.
Phoenix Woman @ 87
Thanks PW. Given his good stand against bombing Iran, I can see where Schumur may be feeling some heat in NY. DiFi, however, what benefit do she or her constituents get for her vote? As many others above have already pointed out, she is providing the imprimatur of democracy to some of the worst abuses known to humanity. Once she allows waterboarding, she fuels secret warrants based on the information obtained under torture. Adding to the damage does she think local police departments will not notice? Only if you have the time and the inclination to respond.
As I said: hot winds in the deep cave called the Senate.
methinks DIFI and CHUKKIE CHEESE need some code pink BLOODY HANDS
Too bad we can’t have a “probationary period” for AGs like we do for employees out here in the “real world”
Would be nice if Congress could warn, “You will be re-evaluated and rated every 30 days for your performance…”
in there face
Ron Paul, with whom I disagree on nearly everything, is still the least insane of the repub field.
Steve-AR @ 174
my bold.
sorry, no. i’m a citizen, not a member of a cult. i do NOT have to believe – i have to THINK.
solai @ 183
woo hoo. what an endorsement. heh.
Adie @ 184
lol
pseudonymous in nc @ 176
Nice summation.
Meanwhile, Gray Lady says MSNBC leans left:
Biodun @ 187
is the article written by jason blair
The difference between Ron Paul and the rest of the Republican candidates is that Paul does at least acknowledge the existence of the Constitution, and its status as law.
No wonder the Republicans act like he’s crazy.
Jayson Blair… *g*
Sounds like Bloomberg is gonna run.
I think what worries me most about Mukasey, from watching how he words his answers, is that he does not feel “invincible” like Gonzales did, and seems to be brighter – therefore is likely to be much more clever at hiding things.
We’ll have to keep a VERY close eye on this one.
solai @ 184
Interesting..I have the opposite impression..Ron Paul is the worst of the bunch; that is why he is getting so much support from hate groups…such as “Stormfront.” search Ron Paul at Orcinus to get a “real” picture of Ron Paul.
Biodun @ 167
Of course.
The NSA connection, however, would explain why you seem to do my information right before I post it.
*g*
– Feinstein
– Schumer
BetrayUS
Used to think Chuck was OK – nevermore
Schumer is a donkey, speaking in Bushspeak. Yes, it would be beneficial to society for the DOJ to be rebuilt along non-partisan lines, to be led by a leader of courage, commitment and the law, and for the new AG not to be under the thumb of Addington and Cheney. It’s also Jesuitical to put it that way, because Mukasey will not be that man. If he were, Cheney and Addington (via their clones in the vetting process) would never have allowed his nomination to go forward.
Sen. Feinstein-Lieberman is merely following her billionaire husband’s interests in making more money by acceding to the administration’s wishes. She is a Democrat because that’s the party she needed to be in to become a senator from California.
She may retire after another five years of doing the GOP’s bidding, but those in her patronage network will want to be re-elected. Let’s geld her network by denying it funding and support. Let’s keep her people from renewing their public employment contracts “to represent” the people.
Joining late but why did Kennedy, Feingold, Whitehouse and Durbin agree NOT to put a hold on. Kennedy looked like he had swallowed something rotten. (Which, in a sense he did.)
Hey Christy lighten up.
I’m sure he’s awsome on the little stuff.
I don’t see MSNBC as a liberal version of Faux News at all. FOX is a dedicated propaganda organ, conceived as such from its inception, and consistent as such. MSNBC is a mainstream news channel which includes some programming critical of the Administration.
A world of difference.
Gray Lady also says Tweety is leftist:
(Same link as above.)
RonD @ 190
I think thry’re reacting as much to Paul’s novel approach to politics – of actually believing in what one says.
DiFi’s entire website is down, not just the e-mail.
I don’t know if it’s server overload, trying to protect the server from the anticipated load of constituents (and others) who are about to tell her exactly what they think of her vote, or simply fear of what we’re about to tell her.
I always like to throw into threads like this that the United States has a long history of denying the Bill of Rights to women, people who are not European American, and people who are not heterosexual. It’s a tragedy of epic proportions to see the Constitution pushed back into something that is pre-Magna Carta in 2007, but it’s not as though our past is pure as the driven snow.
New thread.
Boo Radley @ 204
Sadly true, and the best reason to try harder.
selise @ 185
Sorry..poor choice of words..on the other hand, if the result of “thinking it through” is a series of “one liners” about how the Dem leadership is selling out the country..then we are screwed and no amount of rock throwing will change that. I will continue to hope that the Dem leadership, in the end, has the best interest of our country in mind. With twelve month to go before the election, the die is cast.
I think the whole wiretapping affair was about getting dirt on Congressmen – now that Bush has it, he is holding it over their heads, hence the votes by Feinstein and Schumer.
Biodun @ 188
Wow think of the cognitive dissonance this is gonna cause bill’o.
.
My question is: Why is it strong and courageous to kill someone defending some ideal of democracy, or capitalism, but it’s weak and timid to die for the sake of peace???
To me, the answer to that question is very telling and suggests to me some dichotomous thinking about violence. Einstein made that dichotomy clear in his often quote statement about preparing for peace at the same time as we prepare for war. The two mindsets are mutually exclusive. I would die for the sake of peace. And it’s interesting to me that many people see that as weak. It’s also interesting to me, how those who have made that choice end up elevated and held up in society as role models even when this might not have been the intension.
When we take the stand that violence can no longer persuade us, we are the biggest threat to those who would use power and control to control us. When we refuse to let our fear of violence make us violent…we have a power within that is greater than the power that comes with power and control. Nature shows us that our propensity for violence has been destructive and may in fact lead us once again on a path to self destruction. Peace does not lead us to that path.
Their are disadvantages to peace as a pattern of behavior…but first and foremost we have to change our paradigm and decide that it is just as noble to die for peace as it is to die defending our lives. By refusing to use violence we may surely die, but when we do we perpetuate a long term solution. When we kill in fear, we eliminate that path. We circumvent it, we lend credence to the fear and we perpetuate the violence. Einstein knew this. Jesus Knew this. Mahatma Ghandi knew this. Martin Luther King knew this. Martin Buber knew this.
When we can see that it take more courageous to die for peace than it does to die in fear, we will be elevated to a level of survival that the human race has not yet seen. Our brains will solve problems in a way that they cannot right now, because too much of our time and energy is being wasted by war and fear.
Steve-AR @ 174
With all due respect, I consider this a huge f-up for the Dems. I draw the line at the Constitution. The Dem leadership has no more respect for the Constitution than the Rethugs. Unless they show a significant change of course, they have lost my vote in 2008. This could easily come back to haunt them a year from now…
Robert @ 208
You’re right. Right now there are 700,000 people on the terror watch list! If the intelligence agenices couldn’t connect the dots prior to 9/11 (which I don’t buy BTW) then how the hell are they going to “follow up” on 700,000 people?! They can’t. It’s about “chilling” the populace (see Naomi Wolf’s 10 Steps to Fascism)
Also, look at what people DO not what they SAY.
If Bush and Cheney personally felt that we were in such huge danger would they be hunting, clearing brush, boating in Kennebunkport. No, they’d be in the bunker. So, no the danger is for their purposes only. America seems to be waking up; don’t know if it’s fast enough tho…
Toby Wollin @ 163
That’s exactly the point that Glenn Greenwald made in his posting this morning.
Steve-AR @ 174
Ah yes. Just trust them since they have “responsibility for the outcome.” And after all, us little people don’t really understand the ways of Washington. “Those That Know Better” will take care of us, just as the Dem leaders have been doing for the past 15 years. Everything’s been going in the right direction. We’ve got to attract those Centrists after all, right?
Thank goD Gandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Susan B. Anthony, Nelson Mandela, Margaret Sanger, Edward R. Murrow, Jane Hamsher, and many others decided to throw rocks instead.
I’m not going put my young children’s futures in the hands of Chuck Schumer, DiFi, and Harry Reid and friends, and hope they play their “cards correctly” in a game of political poker, as they return to their palaces. I have a lot of responsibility for what happens to America, and I am very much a combatant in this fight – the fight to keep our Constitution as the law of the land and prevent mega-Corporate control over our freedoms.
phred @ 211
Compared to the 99% of the police state stuff that we don’t know about, I don’t think this will have any impact. I refuse to give up, even if I am going to live behind a wire fence. To me, to say that the Dems have sold us out or are no better than the Thugs is giving up. If I didn’t think that the leadership was trying to do the best under shitty conditions; I would start planning my move out of the country.
Sometimes I think all the warrentless spying Bush was doing before 9/11 was directed not at his democratic opponents, but his fellow Republicans with the intention of collecting enough blackmail material to prevent congressinoal republicans from ever revolting. Howe else to explain Sen Specter’s constan caving on votes after taking a strong stand in opposition.
It’s good that disagreement is being expressed here. Hope we can manage it effectively with respect for differing opinions- if that happens it will be a truly unique blog.
Steve-AR @ 215
What evidence do you base your unswerving faith upon? At every opportunity the Dems have thrown the Constitution under the bus. I’m NOT giving up, I’m just not blindly following Dem leadership over the cliff. All their sternly worded letters and protestations don’t cut it. If the leadership had wanted to challenge Bush on anything, they could have done so. They have chosen not to. They don’t represent me and they have lost my support.
democrats are in shit up to their necks right along side their republican compadres. the plebes must clean their own house before they attempt to clean someone else’s. make a list, check it twice, naughty or nice. then start an internet campaign to eliminate them. i think in order to solve the problem, both sides of the isle have to be willing to look in the mirror. the polticians have been playing a shell game. they figure out who can take the hit and rig the votes accordingly.
beb @ 216
Sphincter has been doing that for many years…long before Shrub and Co. started breaking so many laws. “Magic Bullet” Arlen’s been an operative his entire career.
rwcole @ 217
That’s what is precisely happening. It is unique here.
As expected, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 11-8 to send the nomination of Judge Michael Mukasey to the full Senate for confirmation as Attorney General. As the AP reports, Democrats Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) provided the decisive votes after accepting “his assurance to enforce any law Congress might enact against waterboarding.” Sadly for Schumer, Feinstein and the American people, Congress in 2005 already passed a law express forbidding waterboarding and other interrogation techniques amounting to torture. And President Bush already issued a signing statement declaring he would ignore it.
For the details, see:
“Waterboarding the Constitution: Mukasey and Bush’s 2005 Signing Statement.”
The so-called Democrats have been all hot air and mouth and no cattle on every vote. It doesn’t matter much who calls who or what what because at the end of the day on every vote the Democrats in the 110th Congress, particularly SJC have rubber stamped whatever Bush, the terrorist who continues to suicide bomb the Constitution and his handlers in the Constitutional Terrorist cell Cheney, Addington, and Fielding want.
Check all the votes since November 2006, and they verify precisely that a lot of hot air is said and then the Democratic cattle are herded by the Republican ranch hands down the trail towards a Fascist state. Republicans have a Senate Judiciary dynasty going. They win every vote, and if they can’t get the vote going they end run the appointment process finding a way to keep interims in office throughout the remainder of the Bush regime and it could be longer.
Voting Records Congress
That ring through the Democratic nose on Senate Judiciary Committee is getting larger and thicker.
And Difi’s “hopes” and vacuous dreams for Mukasey, oblivious to his eggregious behavior on the S.D.N.Y. bench raping people’s rights with his rubber stamping of DOJs material witness roundup display what a pure superficial airhead she is, representing her constituents and the country poorly.
Specter the Sphincter has been worthless and is a prime example of hot air with no substance–he has been a pure patsy for Bush, always head- faking with his mouth like a kid in his room dreaming of what he wants to say to mommy, and then voting as a compliant rubber stamp every last time. The same can be applied to Ditzy Diane who is more suited to the back of a McDonald’s than the U.S. Senate, or wait–maybe they have about the same job requirements and need to understand government.
Anyone getting their hopes up for anything from these Senators needs a reality check with the actual votes cast on every major issue or confirmation.
And remember, it takes Democratic Cowing Cavers to make this happen. The raw numbers on every Senate committe are with the Democrats but that doesn’t matter a whit.
What a paradox that such an apathetic country full of Americans who could care less, has the cable networks (when they aren’t doing Britney or Baby Daddy) doing the general election a year away 24X7.
The cable Barbies and Kens and talking heads have conceded that analyzing the real issues Congress is mucking up just gives them a headache and it’s “ooh way too complicated.”
One thing this Congress is doing very successfully is putting dead bodies in exponentially increasing Dover Coffins for years and years and years with no end in sight. Less than 1% of the country is losing their family members while the rest blithfully shops, doing their bit for “the war.”
Again, the Naomi Wolf Fascist State is in place now:
Fascist America, in 10 easy steps A Done Deal Now
Connfirming Mukasey is not better than allowing the DOJ to continue under current management.
It will continue under current management – Addington’s – even if he is appointed. Mukasey will be able sell the appearance of propriety and reform, while being allowed to fix only peripheral problems. At this point in his career and the administration’s life cycle, he will not resign short of Cheney taking a blow torch to Miss Libert in New York harbor.
That will sap the energy for reform and shut off access to the resources needed to do it. Better that the DOJ’s dysfunction and radical prosecutions continue openly. You can’t sterilize the water until it comes to a boil.
I was taking a break from all this because it’s just too damn depressing. And yet it gets more and more depressing. I just sent Feinstein, my senator, a note: Your vote on FISA was a disgrace and now you compound it with your vote on Mukasey. You don’t represent me anymore. I will not vote for you again. I will support anyone who runs against you with my vote and campaign donations.
Now I have to do something breathing exercises because this stuff puts me in a white fury.
Difi had to vote to confirm Mukasey to ensure there is no investigation into the war profits she and her husband are raking in. All talk about the investigation has vanished. Truely sickening.
There is one useful thing that Congress could do. They could pass a law clarifying in its preamble that OLC opinions do not have the force of law and reliance thereon may not be raised as a defense unless the opinions have been publically published and even if published may not be raised as a defense to felony charges. Maybe if they add a flag burning amendment they can get Hillary on board.
Or they could just go along with the absurd supposition that we “need” a law to outlaw waterboarding because otherwise we wouldn’t know it was illegal. Maybe they could tack on a provision that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
BTW – they do realize, don’t they, what they are saying about their potential Presidential candidates.
None of, and all of, Clinton, Obama, Dodd and Biden have enough leadership ability to get the Judiciary Dems to vote against immunizing waterboarding at Presidential whim.
Or, alternatively, some of or all of Clinton, Obama, Dodd and Biden really want the outcome we are getting and are only making a pretense at anything different so they can claim ‘cover’ for “the base.”
In either case, how bile producing.
Biodun @ 100
Why is another “legal ban” necessary? Everyone outside of the Bush administration knows that its illegal. In fact, as you point out above, this “condition” is a loser for Congress and a win for Bush.
What Democrats must do now is to pass a Senate Resolution (rather than a law that requires the president’s signature) declaring that waterboarding and other extraordinary treatments (follow the language of the Army Field Manual) are illegal and have always been illegal, citing all the legal precedents that others have cited. The wording should make it clear that the ban applies to anyone in U.S. custody or control (wording to include rendition to compliant foreign governments).
I am disappointed by my party once again.
Bob in HI
Steve-AR @ 106
If the nomination fails in Committee it can’t proceed to the floor. Bush could place him in as an interim , or recess appointment.
rwcole @ 117
But the confirmation of Mukasey gives CONSENT. It suggests that torture is not yet settled as a legal issue by Congress.
Even worse, if Schumer actually succeeds in getting a “waterboarding is NOW torture” Bill enacted into law, it will give what amounts to retrospective immunity to all those who have used the method. One can’t convict anyone if the law is an ex post facto application.
I say that it is already established law…but by passing the “Schumer” law it would suggest that Congress never thought that it was. And not only woul;d the actual torturers go free , so would the leaders who sanctioned it. No trials, no convictions, no pardons, no revelations of higher level complicity.
Better to not have such a law.
Besides Bush would likely veto it, especially it it contains any recognition that the law was clear when we convicted Japanese and Nazi war criminals.
Steve-AR @ 207
i do think we’ve been sold out – but that most certainly does NOT mean there’s nothing we can do to change that… indeed, i think the reason many people find it difficult to think clearly about what role the dem leadership is playing in all this is because of the false belief that our future is solely in their hands.
I will continue to hope that the Dem leadership, in the end, has the best interest of our country in mind.
A big chunk of the country thinking exactly like that is why we have Bush as President for a second term.
Hopes and dreams are soul food, but they were never meant to be, and should never be used as, a blanket to muffle facts and reality.
sheldon for whitehouse!
wigwam @ 55
Ding Ding – apparently this is what has been going on for 220 years and know we know it will never stop. Respectable lies and dodges and Get ‘er Done (in this case torture, and a President who can choose to be a dictator… um how is an “activist judge” any threat to the Constitution when these people that support a “unitary executive” and criminals.
Mary @ 227
Mary could such a restriction on OLC opinions be made retroactive?
A commenter over at Balkinization said it better than I could:
“Schumer wrestled with his conscience, and won again.”
burnspbesq @ 236
Sometimes you have to rise above principle.
Why does Congress have to pass a law; isn’t it already illegal? If Congress does pass a law, doesn’t that excuse all prior waterboarding on the argument that it was not illegal until the law was passed?
What needs to be passed is a resolution mandating the AG to enforce an existing law prohibiting torture.
Lurker from California here: just letting you know we deplore
DiFi’s behavior and have let her know time and again with faxes,
emails, calls, letters. Receiving responses from her is like getting a
response from John Doo-little, that other Bush enabler. Schumer and Feinstein are more than enablers,
they believe in what they are doing. Stabbing their colleagues in the
back while doing the same to We, the People.
I suggest the SJC invite Mukasey back for a conversation after he’s been appointed AG and read in on the issues of torture and waterboarding. Ask him if he more clearly understands whether waterboarding is torture, whether waterboarding is a current practice of the current administration, who authorised the practice, and what he is doing to close down the practice, assuming it is still ongoing.
THe candidate sounds like the worse of a Jr Law Clerk having to research the question He just did not quite get it that waterboarding is illegal. How fitting he has the company of Cornyn. How we long for Molly Ivins who dismissed him as a good looking S B who looked liked a Senator. Never mind his legal background: Cornyn doesn’t get it either that Waterboarding has a long precedent of being illegal.
F.U. very much Chuck and Diane. You make a fine, grotesque couple, and traitors to the country and your party.
Have a fine day. Happy Waterboarding. Weeeeee
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
This is the kind of situation Rove & Bush have continually put Democrats and congress in. It’s similar to the Authorization to use Military Force in Iraq. It’s almost designed to let Bushies laugh at Dems for trying to find a pragmatic way forward while still adhering to principles. It’s sadistic.
Most Dems showed themselves by sticking to principles.
Schumer submitted Mukasey, so he was stuck doubly. I don’t blame him so much for his behavior.
Feinstein was the one Dem who had no real justification for walking away from principle. That means she’s not a Democrat. Period.
She should be kicked in the ass in public and humiliated. She should be censured, minimized, removed from committees and told to set in the closet while adults govern.
She’s an embarrassment to the Democratic Party.
Hugh @ 53
I watched a replay of their post-vote speeches and then came in here to read this thread. One thing I noticed was that while Durbin or one of the other “no” Dems was speaking about waterboarding being torture the C-SPAN camera switched to Graham and he was nodding up and down that he understood and probably agreed that indeed waterboarding was and is torture.
The vote for Mukasey is going to be largely a vote by Republicans to support Bush, but there will be some who, like Feinstein, simply want the DoJ back in working order.
These are not evil stupid people, but I believe on this issue their pragmatic course has left America exposed as a hypocrite open to any kind of criticism.
The party of so-called Traditional Family Values has a lot to explain for.
I believe it is partly due to the economic warfare the Rich have prosecuted on everyone else that has left many in the Republican working poor vulnerable on issues of principle since their back is to the wall. If you’re fighting for your home, your job, your children and against terrorism, then how are you going to be strong enough to stand up on torture? The Rich have a lot to apologize for, putting so many people in this position.
http://www.spymac.com/details/?2298233