I hope someone can explain to me the wisdom of piling on Elliot Spitzer for some perceived lack of decorum when he tried to implement a policy of giving drivers’ licenses to undocumented immigrants. As I understand it, somehow if he’d only been more tactful and polite to his allies it would have mitigated the fact that the issue has now become the battle cry of Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Mitt Romney and an extreme right wing searching for something suitably hate-filled and jingoistic to rally the base. The fact that Sistah Souljah-ing Spitzer at this point plays into the hands of machine politicians on both sides of the aisle like Joe Bruno and Andrew Cuomo who joined together to try to hamstring Spitzer seems to be of little import, and in the wake of inflammatory mailers and heated right wing rhetoric it somehow conveniently allows everyone to run away from the terrible poll numbers and just bitch about Spitzer rather than try to get on the right side of policy.
If there’s some tactical brilliance going on here, I confess it escapes me. This is going to be an ugly battle — as Stoller says, possibly a preview of 2008 — and I do think it’s going to be one of those issues where we all hang together or we hang separately.
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
ha
G’nite Jane.
I think you are right.
Rove always wanted the immigration issue to be the dividing factor, and it will get really, really ugly.
Well then, let’s all hang together.
OT: Good point by KO on the conspiracy
Elliott @ 4
We’ll all go down together
I keep thinking of Will Rogers. “I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”
Here in beautiful downtown upstate, we have not only inflammatory mailers,
but also daily robocalls from the Republican sheriff describing Sptizer’s plan as the End of Days.
raven @ 6
That was the last thread.
allan_in_upstate @ 9
That was Billy Joel
Dobbs starts his show every night with some headline about the “outrageous” Spitzer, “deying the will of the public” by “giving away licenses to “illegal aliens.” He is a dangerous, arrogant, unprincipled demogogue.
Latinos are “teh gay” now.
Take it from the gay latino.
No surprise to see waves of frightened Dems throwing latinos under the bus.
For me, it’s deja vu all over again.
Lahoma tells me that what’s really going on is a struggle for control of the direction of the Democratic Party for years to come. I stand in this woman’s shadow.
Hi Jane!
Whole lotta Hispanic voters out there in what usta be Red States and I just…I really don’t think…..
They luvs them no Lou Dobbs. Nor no Republicans of any stripe.
The giant media companies have gone batshit crazy. Glenn Beck, dead last in the ratings, signed for 50m yesterday and the NYT practically gagged themselves sucking him off.
What’s my point?
The good times are coming to an end for giant media as the economy tanks and even more importantly people come to the Internet to communicate. Faceboook, Free Left Blogistan, MySpace all are mushrooming new forms of human interaction.
As the pool of money in which the media conglomerates shrinks, nobody buys CDs anymore you download it from the artists MySpace page, nobody goes to the movies you watch it on yer buds HDTV off a stolen and hacked BlueRay disc, no one listens to Katie she’s and idiot and doesn’t show enough cleavage…
…as the pool gets smaller….
You get no-talent morans like Beck taking more money off CNN than he will ever make for them because the slick hipsters in the corner office are just looking for one more big Xmas Bonus before it all goes…..
BUSHBOOM!KO on Countdown — first story is on torture and Mukasey, starting with one of the four former Judge Advocate’s General.
Special commentary later in the program.
Okay. Let me see if I have this straight:
Illegal aliens are here illegally and don’t want to get caught, because if they do, they know they’ll be sent back to their countries. So, Spitzer is proposing giving illegals drivers licenses, which means, the illegals will have to come and apply for them, will have to get their picture taken, and will have give lots of info out about themselves.
Oh please!
For some reason, I don’t see illegals rushing downtown to do this.
What if Spitzer is using this as a backdoor to get the illegals into custody and deported?
Who knows. As usual, the reich wingers of America (Dobbs et al) are using this whole thing as one more way to hate the Mexicans. Nothing but a bunch of racists!
Yeah, Spitzer gets beaten up for trying to do something pro-active. Joe Bruno just wants to sit back and rule the NY Senate. Cuomo’s pissed cuz he wants to be Governor even though he loses at least half his election runs.
Spitzer’s biggest “crime” is trying to upset the status quo in Albany.
What Dodd did was unforgiveable and I consider the act of a desperate man –perhaps he will moon the other candidates at the next debate.
Alter on Olbermann is mitigating the influence of progressives on the Democratic Party. I am not pleased. But not surprised either, when I look about and see who controls my party.
Bobby Kennedy where are you? We support John Edwards for president.
Pachacutec @ 12
Those ‘Democrat’ folks you’re talkin’ about? They are going to be very surprised this election when many of them find themselves under that famous bus.
Evangelicals are not the only folks who can stay home. I’m picking my spots and if a ‘Democratic’ candidate is hangin’ with ‘The Rabbit’ Emmanuel or Schumer or using ReThug frames….
Why he/she won’t get any money or support from me.
I already visited Jerry McNerney’s blog and told him:
Listen Up, Jerry!
It’s his choice. I already made mine.
A.Citizen @ 14
I listened to Beck’s radio program for 10 seconds today and during that time, he stated that it’s hahd werk what he does and that he deserves every penny of it! He then went on to say that he used to pay $700/month in rent and only makes $100,000 today. Oh please!
What I think is happening is just typical reich wing propaganda: reward those who tow the line, even if they’re a complete moron or reward those who helped ya get your invasion of Iraq (Bremer’s Medal of Freedom etc.) under the slimiest of circumstances!
Repugs are just moving up in the alphabet… everything was a “G” [gay,gun & God] and last year it was “H” for Hispanic and they have blended the “H & I” and added the “B” for any brown person..
So in the Repug alphabet soup of politics…any brown person and immigration.
Lord help us all and in Phoenix we have JD Hayworth as drive time talks show host on a 50K clear channel station spouting his brown hate.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
We do too.
1,647 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the firepup Freedom Fighters:
“…I do think it’s going to be one of those issues where we all hang together or we all hang separately.”
Right on the fuckin’ button, Sister Jane, right on the button!! Actually on every single issue out there this year it’s critical that we all be singin’ from the same hymnal and that’s why I’m so opposed to Mrs. Clinton and the DLC corporatists havin’ ANY visibility on issues of consequence this next year. There is no doubt in my mind that Clinton will attempt to triangulate this issue, as she did so ineptly at the last debate, to the effect of isolating the Democratic Party on the issue and givin’ it up to the xenophobes and border militias.
I seldom agree with much a what Bill Maher has ta say on anythin’ but on this issue he’s right on…it’s a completely fabricated “crisis” not unlike the Social Security crisis but this one has the potential to get it done for the krypto-Nazis who need another visible scapegoat within our borders.
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER…THIS IS WHAT CITIZENSHIP MEANS!!
The wingnuts are thrilled to hear Repugs like Tancredo, Hunter and many others make “Immigration” the 3rd rail of the 2008 election. Look for Ghouliani and Herr Romney to buy in bigtime.
And as a Repug “codeword” for racism, there’s nothing their wingnut followers like better than some red-meat hating.
The dog whistles are getting warmed up as the Repug’s ramp-up their strategy for a counter-issue to Iraq.
Play the “race” card to get out the vote.
maybe it’s that word “give” – sadly many people seem to have a problem with it.
how about this…
i’m not so good with words, but maybe you-all see what i’m getting at? would spitzer’s plan be such a scandal if we talked about driver’s licenses (and associated fees) as a responsibility instead of as a priviledge?
I wonder will the immigration issue in the Congress election of 2008 be impacted by who is the Dem running is (and of course Rep cuz they can’t give those votes up if they lose even 10% evangelicals). For instance I wonder if polling can bear out how anti-Clinton people that come out to vote against her will also vote R in the other races (and if that study exists it could certainly be repeated for other candidates). Maybe Obama would get people out to vote against him since he is “different” (name and race and background)
I would think that Rudy on the R side would also lose those voters (plus almost all Evangelicals) and maybe Romney. Freddy is totally out to lunch so lets not entertain that nightmare.
I do not bring this up to vote against the person the R side does not hate – rather the strategy (the drumb beat issues to go along with all the bread and circus) on the other side must be tuned a bit to the candidates they are calling and I wonder how that is going to go.
I recall in Feb-2004 Rove really cranked up the gay marrige issue as did advocate/rights activists and knowing that was to be the election issue (the flag waving in your face one as opposed to the real ones of the war and giving a mandate to Bush for all the world to see after torture, pre-emptive war, etc…)
I guess the 2000 scam was the media-sold lie that nobody cared and there would be no difference between Dems and R’s.
2000 – could have had a lock box for Social Securuty (ha ha that is so funny rember, so funny to people who are all going to rely on SS unlike the suddenly rich media but like many of the people who though it was funny against their own interests) and a better Environment [oh and maybe a good use of surplus] -versus- drinking a beer with the alcholic cheerleader and fuzzy math who lowers taxes so rich people can cheaply cash out of a bubble tech market to start setting up the real estate devices and rules and boards to give nice packages to eachother.
2004 – Iraq war & 10 Billion for Alternative Engery -versus- keeping our Energy policy published that we seek to maintain and gain control of oil fields and screw conservation & alternatives to this day.
2008 – as they say why bother with elections, just do what those couple of Richistanies want.
Mad Dogs @ 25
The Hispanic vote will be out….that’s for sure.
I don’t fault Spitzer for trying but I thought it was a bit overly optimistic to think folks would waltz right into a DMV and sign up for ICE. After all we already have a nifty little document called an international drivers license which could easily serve Spitzers plan. I also appreciated one point Senator Dodd made about not creating extra bureaucracy.
I said this before, I just don’t see how a tiered or hierarchical system of licenses is going to work. Does an illegal immigrant really want to go out and get himself a card, state issued PROOF, that he’s in the country illegally so he can carry it with him wherever he goes? Is he going to want to flash said license at a cop who happens to pull him over for any minor traffic infraction? The answer, to me, seems no. Tiered systems tend to stomp on the people at the bottom.
Swopa advocates on Needlenose that my party restore “common sense”. Swopa is right as rain’.
dakine01 @ 17
Ain’t that the truth. He’s also accused of being “rude” to the legislature. As if! Isn’t Bruno ossified by now?
Okay…let’s see.
We have TSA protecting the homeland in the airports.
We have Border Patrol, Minutemen, and National Guard protecting the Southern border.
We have Border Patrol at the Canadian/Homeland checkpoints.
We have virtually no checking of cargo coming in via the ports.
We have trucks coming in, through, and across the country.
We have bombers flying missing nukes across the country unknown to anyone supposedly.
Now, I know we do have Coast Guard out there somewhere but…I can’t wait until one of these boneheads proposes a wall along all of our coastlines….bring that one on…
Rochester Democrat and Chronicle article on Republican mailers and robocalls.
kiddo. I love it when you kick butt.
lahoma
LS @ 33
…and don’t forget! Laura & George listen to our phone calls at night to save the country! We are wicked safe with them in charge. Yeah, yeah, even Laura is working on combating gangs in the country too.
We are wicked safe!
Righto DakineO. Why are candidates asked about issues they would, if president, have no control over (drivers licenses, abortion)? Oh, I see, it’s so Timmeh, et al., can have their gotcha moments.
Immigration is the only issue the goopers have left — unite in hate. Thompson is the only candidate who can run on the issue and has already started to make it the center piece of his campaign.
Campaigns are about getting blocks of voters to the polls….forget the swing voters ..get your voters to the polls. Left Democrats need to look to Ed Rendell’s coalition that beat Bob Caseyjr in the primary.
I think those of us @ FDL ought to take a deep breath, step back, and look at a few of the “other” angles on “undocumented workers” or whatever one calls them.
Yes, Lou Dobbs and all his ilk use this to rev up xen*ph*bic energy. But let’s take a look at why it has such power — not over the crazies, but over decent “middle Americans.”
A) Jobs and wages. While businesses try to argue that “[undocumented] immigrants do the work that Americans won’t do,” the truth is that they do the work that Americans won’t do that work for the wages that businesses are offering. If businesses had to increase wages for these “crappy” jobs, perhaps some “documented” folks might step forward to do them.
Of course this would raise the cost of many items and services [produce picked in the fields, yard services, etc.], but do all of us really want to have cheap groceries & lawn services [I mow my own] on the backs of workers?
“Documented” workers, and “native” Americans are justifiably worried about the threat to their wages and job security posed by those willing to undercut prices and unable to speak out against abuses because of their fear.
B) “Services”. I’m not going to try to lay out the truth vs. perception of “demands” that undocumented workers make on schools, health care providers, etc. I recognize that there’s a STRONG argument that undocumented folks may actually pay more than they get back in utilization of services — thus I can’t really parse this with facts.
But I think it’s important to look at how people feel.
I think we should acknowledge that in a terrible economy, with national and local entities starved for revenue, people see all sorts of services that are no longer available to them: good schools, decent highways/bridges, libraries, health care, etc. Yet they’re working, paying their monstrously regressive social security taxes, their Federal and state taxes, their property taxes, etc.
They then see pictures of all the folks running across the border, know that most are not “within the system” re paying taxes, but are supported by “liberals” in access to schools and healthcare.
So I think it must feel like “those guys are getting stuff that I and my family really need, and I’m here working my ass off — this is just too unfair.”
As I write this I realize I’m not being too coherent. I apologize. I just get disturbed by what appears to me as a knee-jerk reaction that folks who want to wrestle with the serious problems posed by uncontrolled immigration are Neanderthals or racists.
Looking at this issue from the points of view of many different folks, while trying to attract Latino voters to the Democratic party, is going to be challenging.
Okay, lesse now … Millions of undocumented immigrants (where’s katymine ? *g*) own homes,
stocks, businesses and cars but people want to deny them Driver’s Licenses ?
Also with goopers and especially during a campaign you cannot behave rationally. And certainly don’t let them frame the questions.
I think we should be talking about the supreme court and the issue of choice.
Also I think it’s great, BTW, that an insurance company will insure an unlicensed driver, but when said driver gets pulled over or in an accident? They get a ticket anyway. Insurance does them little good, but the insurance companies make money hand over fist.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 39
They will always have the 3 G’s – God, Guns & Gays – their base seems blissfully unaware of the hypocrisy of gays in their own party …
Lahoma advises me she meant to say “setting the record straight”. Not “kicking Butt”. Hmmm. Is Lahoma running for office?
Shall we allow another 10 million illegal immigrants to walk across our border? I am sympathetic and I believe that services such as education and health care should be provided to them. But someone has to pay for this, and it is the legal citizens who have paid the taxes. They also vote.
Illegal immigrants want a better life here and are hard working. But they take jobs from citizens at lower wages, and destroy labor unions. The “North American Union” is making this much worse. Mexican truck drivers will be delivering uninspected cargo containers all over the country.
I hope this debate will be fair, but La Raza has at times acted like a bully. They tried to blackmail the mayor of Kansas City. La Raza lost and Mayor Funkhouser is more popular than ever.
My worries begin with the dollar tanking and losing its’ place as the world’s reserve currency. The US Treasury emptied by a fabricated war, Halliburton, and the military industrial complex. Sub-prime mortgage-credit crunch disaster created and executed by the investment/commercial banks, car owners being enronized with the new fake energy crisis due to oil refineries colluding with Wall Street holding back production and artificially jacking up oil to $100.00 per barrel. The U.S. is headed into hyper-inflation thanks to the Federal Reserve bailing out the banks that engineered the subprime credit disaster (Hey, why can’t I get a loan at 4.5%?). Health care costs and college loans at 6.5% for my kids. Bush and cronies freeloading off of the taxpayers and leaving IOU’S in the US Treasury and Social Security till for my kids future of indentured servitude to foreign holders of US debt. Last on my list of concerns is whether or not illegal immigrants can get a Driver’s license. I think it will become a non-issue as people tighten their belts, stop spending, start saving and under the wire jobs will disappear.
Petrocelli @ 44
they don’t have guns and gays anymore –they’ve been to that well There is no real push against guns anymore and they have pretty much bashed all the gays legislatively speaking. The last time around in az it kind of backfired so really they have fall back on an oldier but goodie racial hatred.
In response to all immigration issues – Democrats should point at the Bush failures.
These people don’t care about the big picture. They don’t care about immigration, the war, the economy. They are too self-centered. They want to be the big fish in whatever little pond they find themselves. There aren’t many people in public service that are in there to serve the public, they are in there to serve themselves at the public trough. So, yeah, they’ll gang up on Spitzer to boost their own esteem, they couldn’t care less about what the infighting would do to the party, nor about the immigration issue at all. Same with everything else, illegal spying and retro immunity. “Give me my campaign contributions, I’ll vote for immunity, don’t care if it destroys the constituion. I got what I want.”
Mods, why did you put the *s into xenophobic? It’s not a curse word, and I don’t recall calling anyone xenophobic.
[Mod Note; it’s a term commonly used by trolls so it has been in the moderation filters for quite some time now.]
Special Comment coming right up. Stay tuned…
Giving legal documents to illegal aliens makes no sense to me.
High officials spewing ad homonym remarks all over respectable citizens is most unseemly.
We’re never going to get rid of Halliburton, the Caryle Group, Blackwater or the DLC. The impression is we might want to consider laying the groundwork for the creation of one or more additional viable political parties.
This entire immigration issue is the biggest red herring in this country since Joe McCarthy’s Salem-on-the-Potomac escapades.
Wait. I forgot the “waronterrr” itself.
Second biggest red herring.
I won’t deny that some immigration policies may need to be looked at, but the real impetus for it is one thing and one thing only; to demonize the furriners in the frantic hope that the bloody goopers can push Iraq under the rug and out of the election picture…and every one of the talking heads who’s pimping the issue knows this.
Yup. And, Keith’s already had a coupla really good zingers already.
A.Citizen @ 21
Frank33 @ 45
Frank33,
Most of those undocumented persons are also paying taxes. They are paying sales taxes when they purchase food, clothing and supplies. They are paying gas taxes when they fill up their car. If they smoke, they are paying tobacco taxes when they but cigarettes. I’m sure they are paying a lot of other taxes that I may not be totally aware of. Including income taxes if they are being paid any way other than cash under the table. And because they are undocumented, I’d be guessing that they are getting far fewer services for their tax burden than the tax avoiders like Hedge Fund managers.
Tanbark @ 53
I was talking to a school counselor today and she said that the Hispanic school population had dropped quite a bit this year. Something is going on.
Edwards claims that Hillary votes one way and talks another way. Could that be true?
Loo Hoo. @ 51
Can we trade Reid/Pelosi to ESPN for KO ?!! *g*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Why do you think we hate the DLC? They are trying to destroy the Democratic Party. It saddens me so to think that Birch Bayh’s son is one of those DLC’ers.
Here is some interesting demographics about the make-up of the US in 2005…I wonder if this is part of Rove’s math:
“White persons, percent, 2005 (a) (a) 80.2%
Black persons, percent definition and source info Black persons, percent, 2005 (a) (a) 12.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent definition and source info American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2005 (a) (a) 1.0%
Asian persons, percent definition and source info Asian persons, percent, 2005 (a) (a) 4.3%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent definition and source info Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2005 (a) (a) 0.2%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent definition and source info Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2005 1.5%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent definition and source info Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2005 (b) (b) 14.4%
White persons not Hispanic, percent definition and source info White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2005 66.9%”
*********
Now, out of the 80%…how many of the 80% dislike or feel threatened by persons in the other categories? How many are voters. That is the immigration math, yet to be fully realized until we have an election where immigration is front and center. Scary thought. JMHO
55
Was suppose to say he voted for HR1955 the latest to take away free speech.
jo6pac
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
Do you really equate the DLC, as bad as it may seem sometimes, with Halliburton, Carlyle Group, or Blackwater?
I think I can live alright and know that we are possibly going to survive if the DLC were the only one of those you list to continue. I’m not sure the same can be said for the first three.
Petrocelli @ 59
He’s not on ESPN anymore.
KO on fire.
dakine01 @ 56
dakine01 for President !
(standing on desk, applauding)
KO-criminal conspiracy to cover the ass of George Bush. Pathetic attempt to keep these mock leaders from standing trial.
Solution: the US annexes (sounds much better than invade or pre-emptive war) Mexico,
stealsincorporates its’ resources, expands oil exploration and get off the middle-east oil tit, and the mexican populace become taxpaying citizens of the new and expanded United States and allowed the privelege of applying for a driver’s license.“Do you really equate the DLC, as bad as it may seem sometimes, with Halliburton, Carlyle Group, or Blackwater?”
You ask a direct question. And you deserve a direct answer: Yes.
KO Smackdown!!!!!
raven @ 64
Which station is he on down there?
I fell on the floor laughing yesterday, with his imitation of Howard Cosell.
Loo Hoo. @ 67
KO speaks for me !!!
Petrocelli @ 71
He’s on NBC Sunday Night Football.
I understand that 72% of New Yorkers think that giving Illegals a license is unwise.
Daniel Levine let himself be waterboarded, and determined that it is trial. Has GWB ever done anything brave. Levine lost his job (he was waterboarded) for speaking the truth. It is torture on every level. He wrote it down. Kalid Sheik Mohammed was waterboarded. We are Americans, and we are better than that, and we are better than YOU, Mr. Bush.
Levin was fired because he knew what was happening because he would have made Bush stand trial for war crimes. He heard Bush say “the US does not torture” and knew better.
I am so glad KO mentions Deans suggestion.
Loo Hoo. @ 76
You are not implying that the president would lie? Tsk tsk.
And we are better than the DLC and Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford Jr. and Rahm, and Harry and Nancy and….
dakine01@ 57:
I would welcome some analysis from some folks knowledgeable on this matter.
I note, for example, that while undocumented folks may pay sales taxes and the other taxes you listed, it’s highly unlikely that they pay the taxes that are the mainstay of services.
Social security taxes, which they probably don’t pay, support current payees. Income and property taxes support federal and local services. I strongly suspect that if someone is truly “undocumented” [i.e., hasn’t gotten a visa, green card or citizenship], one does NOT want to wave a red flag before the authorities.
Can one even get a social security number [necessary for withholding] if one’s undocumented?
I also strongly believe that employers who are delightedly paying low wages to undocumented workers are not about to increase their own costs by paying their and their workers’ portion of social security taxes. Nor are they likely to be sending in withholding taxes to federal and state systems.
As I said, I’d REALLY welcome some dispassionate economic facts on these matters. Jane, who’s in the FDL stable?
Loo Hoo. @ 77
trouble is Loo Hoo, he just doesn’t care what we think
KO cannot guess why Schumer and Feinstein have agreed to support Mukasey. KO says before the vote tomorrow, they better get an answer about waterboarding. Ultimately, it isn’t about who applied waterboarding, it is about who approved it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 81
Amen Brother !
Bush isn’t just looking at impeachment, according to KO, he is looking at war crimes. !!!!!!!!!
Mukasey (the high priest) o
Loo Hoo. @ 85
He sure is.
Why isn’t Keith calling for a filibuster on Mukasey?
Altogether, now, (except Jane, you stay on the couch) Standing Ovation for KO.
Holy Cow!
Daniel Levine.
Spread the word. Some More.
(Jane, glad you’re feeling well enough to post.
go girl.)
This plan is ending with a crash. (KO) There are still Americans who are better because of beliefs and morals. We will return this country to what it should be!!!!!
LOVE KO!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
I could not agree more.
I regularly bring this point up and it never gets any traction around here.
Both of these parties are bought and paid for, and, what’s worse, they run candidates that will do and say anything to win. No principles, no progressive convictions that they will not compromise.
We need to do the heavy lifting necessary to create more choices in the political process.
Bush will be defeated, because of people like Daniel Levin!!!! Per KO
that man is one of a kind
BRAVEHEART
IF Schumer or DiFi had any shame, this would do it.
Sadly they don’t.
OT:
KO Special Comment on Countdown – Guy Fawkes like fireworks.
LS @ 91
Defeated how? He’s running out the clock.
redx @ 95
V V V V V V V V V V V V
Weinstein ,Feinstein…whats the dif
Petrocelli @ 60
Wish, Petrocelli!
Again, another keeper. Can’t wait for it to be up on C&L. Should be in about an hour or so. Then to my iPod along with all the rest of his S.C.s
So how long before they pull the plug on Keith, I wonder.
sadly yes @ 97
Heh.
raven @ 96
Because people with credibility (unlike Bush) will keep speaking out and expose Bush for the fascist he is.
zombie of Pat Pukecannon
Loo Hoo. @ 98
yeah, guys, but don’t we need him exactly where he is?
OT: And if McCain is on that committie and does believe that Water Boarding is torture he should say he will vote no – but just wants to be President.
Loo Hoo. @ 78
It’s called torture here, but in the Middle East it’s called persecution. Persecution creates martyrs. Undoubtedly, the Arab States fear the US Campaign to
exterminate, drive away, or subjugate their people because of their religion, race, beliefs, andouroil under their damn sand.many undocumented workers use fake social security numbers- they pay into accounts that they will never be able to withdraw from. Yes they pay payroll taxes- and like all renters- they pay property taxes indirectly.
the S word
I actually like listening to Pat Buchanan.
60 percent of the time he just rings the gooper chimes- but the other forty percent is interesting- and his political analysis can be pretty good when he tries to be objective.
raven @ 94
Exactly.
The gutless wonders that make up this congress won’t even stop funding his wars.
KO is the best, but I don’t see it either.
Msnbc cheif calls pukes…insane
This was not a problem in CA until the CA GOP decided to commit long run political suicide for short term electoral gain in 1993.
California did not require residency information for a drivers license, since… forever, I think. I remember reading something about requirements in 1917 had no residency provision. Never caused a problem that I know of or read about. All through WWI, when Mexico was suspected of being sympathetic to Germany. Not through WWII or Cold War. Now certain groups feel the need to use hysteria and fear for political gain, and this long term non-problem is turned into a big bogus problem.
Anyone know where to find a history of drivers licenses in the US? I can’t find what I had read about history of driving in CA, but as I remember, it said, CA didn’t worry about residency until CA GOP thought it could drum up some votes over x*noph*bia.
There’s no question that waterboarding is torture- if ya look up torture in the dictionary- there’s probably a picture of it.
There’s also not much question but that Clusterfuck has done it- so clusterfuck is a criminal- but we all knew that.
rwcole @ 110
thats good because he lives in a cage in the MSNBC green room
waterboarding=drowning
Loo Hoo. @ 100
I’ll catch KO on the midnight rerun or on crooks and liars … sounds like his best one yet …
rwcole @ 108
and sales taxes too
sadly yes @ 115
I have to admit that I think Buchanon is one of the sharpest wingnuts. Many times I have read one of his coluns that starts out with some interesting and insightful comments and analysis. I do not remember last time I read anything by him that did not end up completely wrong-headed, bizarre, mistaken, hateful, etc., though.
Reading buchanon is a weird experience. After first two paragraphs it will turn nutty, no mater how impressive the start.
demi @ 105
Hiya demi !
I actually think that having KO as Leader of the Senate or House would advance the cause much more …
sadly yes @ 114
I believe Hunter Thompson used to be amazed that he got along with Buchanan. They used to talk pro football IIRC (Nixon would talk it with them as well).
demi @ 105
Yes, on MSNBC.
Breaking News … Bush urges Musharraf to restore democracy …
Musharraf responds, “Do you mean in my country or yours?” *g*
Petrocelli @ 122
so sad but true
You all did see that Wilkes is guilty on all 13 counts, right?
Loo Hoo. @ 124
where’s my handkerchief?
LS @ 103
How much more exposure does this horror show of an administration need?
I am thoroughly convinced Bush could lay out a blanket and eat puppies on the white house lawn and nothing would change.
Petrocelli @ 123
This is a test run for Bush/Cheney. They’re checking out the possibility of suspending the Constitution in America, perhaps? I think they better be careful…
Elliott @ 126
Yeah, cry me a river…And the whole Foggo thingy still to be tried!
Petrocelli @ 122
Good one!
I read somewhere over the weekend that Musharraf is Darth’s boy, which means Darth may have suggested this course of action.
Maybe it’s a test case for the US
Loo Hoo. @ 128
maybe I’ll buy stock in Kimberly Clark /s
Anyone think Cheney’s got a hand in the Pakistan fiasco?
solai @ 132… yep, and in the syria bombing fiasco too. Sure they do.
It’s called Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America
Eureka Springs @ 30
Unless something has changed, I’m not sure the in’tl drivers license will do the job for many.
It requires (or did) an underlying valid drivers license from one’s country of origin, recognized in the country in which it’s used. The two licenses operate in tandem and must be used together.
You can (or used to be able to) just pick one up at the AAA. It mostly served the purpose of translating the data from the underlying license for convenience.
ICE has been in my state making deals with sheriffs. Paying for the privilege of screening all persons arrested and for separate incarceration facilities for those thought to be undocumented. There was a bit of push back until money was flashed. Now it’s AOK.
Why should they be careful? Who’s going to stop them?
Presidential Directive NSPD51
rwcole @ 108
The IRS will give people who, for whatever reason, don’t have a Social Security number, something called an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number. Once one has one of those, then it becomes more difficult for an employer to screw the worker, because filing false 941s and issuing false W-2s are both felonies.
Let’s see…if an illegal fails his/her driver’s test will he/she promise not to drive or will he/she drive him/herself back to their home country?
Jane, I think it is a totally silly idea for the fact that illegals are illegal for a reason. They are not going to come forward to get a license and be tracked. Add to that the three levels of licenses and you got a non starter. Whatever resolution comes has to come at the Federal level. It was caused at the Federal level of both Mexican and our governemnts and that’s where it will be resolved.
The pubbies will TRY to make this their central issue in the general just to divert attention from Iraq/Iran/Afgahnistan and oil/arms/drugs… their big money makers in this country. I hope people do not get off topic on that because that’s THE issue.
Hillary should have answered with “That’s between Spitzer and the NY State voters. I’m running for President.” instead of being lead down the garden path like that. At least dorkwad would have had to rephrase the question in national terms like a national id card and the issues with that.
sadly yes @ 116
Crucifixion = Prolonged Stress Position
I have to admit that I really don’t get Obama and Edward’s jumping all over Hillary when their positions are not that different or are even more contradictory.
This from Edward’s interview Sunday withGeorge Stephanopoulos: “So the 40 states that deny illegal immigrants driver’s licenses that’s okay with you?”
Mr. Edwards: “Let me finish. I think that is their decision to make, not the President’s decision.
[So why jump all over Hillary for supporting Spitzer’s decision?]
But here’s what I believe. I believe that, first of all, we have to have comprehensive immigration reform. And for anybody in this country who is making an effort and on the path to obtaining American citizenship, yes, they should have a driver’s license. If they’re not making any effort to become an American citizen, and we have a system for doing that, my own personal view is, no, I would not give them a driver’s license.”
[Hmm! I seem to understand that there are a whole lot of legal residents…international college students, tourists, and others…who have no intent to become citizens and yet can currently obtain licenses. Edwards seems to think that the right to drive should be restricted to citizens or those “on the path to becoming citizens”. Absurd!]
Stephanopoulos then noted that Mr. Edwards, when he first ran for president in 2004, unequivocally supported giving licenses to illegal immigrants. [Flip-flop?] He then played a video of Mrs. Clinton’s debate response — in which she said the issue points out the need for comprehensive federal immigration reform — and Stephanopoulos suggested her stance sounded like Mr. Edwards’ position now: “You’re saying the same thing, right?”
Mr. Edwards: “That’s true.”
Jeeeeeeesus!!!! The attack was not one of substance, but simply undertaken to make it “appear” that her position was untenable…when in fact, they largely agree with what she said! Talk about cynical!
After the Stephanopolous interview an Edward’s spokesman said, “I’m pretty sure Sen. Edwards’ comments speak for themselves — we still aren’t clear on her position.”
Uh-Huh!
I dunno. I never thought this was a black/white, slam dunk, E-Z issue. Reasonable people can disagree. I’m very well tired of people bitching about Hillary being picked on (or “gang raped”, as some have called it). She seems to be dealing with it better than those who are all upset. I wasn’t pleased to see people questioning Dodd’s motives for coming out against Spitzer’s plan. That’s not helpful either. Hillary got roughed and tumbled and she came out of it OK. As for me, you know why I think Spitzer’s idea makes sense? After listening to all the scumbags like my very own Tom Feeney (R-Tom Delay’s ass) during the SCHIP debate say that bill would have givenbillion$ ofdollars inbenefits to illegals because states could permit driver’s licenses to be accepted as valid ID. Feeney and his ilk screamed “Everybody knows fake licenses are so easy to get!” Fine. So give theses people real ones showing who they are and their immigration status.
In fairness to
dickknucklehead feeney’s position, he also opposed SCHIP because he said it permitted the use of social security numbers as ID and that all the illegal brown people have fake ss cards, too, and would get benefits.cinnimonape – Edwards was hammering the point that hillary is unable to give a straight answer. Dodd’s the only one that held issue on the actual position of what is not the domain of the President. The point was that Hillary really never gives an answer in any difinitive way. That’s true. Presidents aren’t to meddle in state’s rights is the correct answer from Hillary. Had she done that, it wouldn’t have been an issue.
I just didn’t see this as an attack at all. Its a debate and the methods by which one would govern and communicate is an important point. She’s the “frontrunner” but virtue of a country that can’t let go of the past and polls based on maybe 1-2000 land line who are home at the time of the call, who want to respond. That one poll even came out of the Hillary campaign. I just wish we could all reserve the coronation until some actual voters have voted and even then not call this “race” until all the primaries have concluded. People do want to feel their vote counts or they won’t vote at all. Its not fair to the voters who are pretty swayed by “popular opinion”. Which I also don’t understand….. but they are.
The debates are to show their strengths and weakness’ or else it would be called a tea party.
Anyway, its a mess with about three actual valid issues all rolled up into one “immigration” issue. Impossible to sort out given the framing of the conversation. The driver’s license doesn’t solve one bit of it either. It just creates more problems, really.
Myrtle June @ 144
I can’t believe people acting shocked — shocked, they say – that the frontrunner is attacked by other candidates. Like, of course, man.
Eureka Springs @ 30
True, but one needs a drivers license already to obtain the International Drivers License. There’s no “licensing system” to obtain it…meaning that you don’t go in and take a drivers test for, specifically, the Int’l Drivers License. It’s issued ASFAIK by the AAA.
So an immigrant not eligible currently for a State issued license would need to apply in their country with their foreign license. And I think states restrict the time period an individual can drive on an IDL without obtaining a more permanent license.
But the IDL structure could be adapted, allowing individuals to pay a fee for the test, and either obtain an IDL via the AAA or bring thye AAA system into the State procedures.
Here’s the interesting thing. If an undocumented individual had already obtained an IDL in their home country they can “legally”: drive in the US using that document. I’m not sure if that allows them to obtain insurance without additional identification, though.
Drivers licenses are not indicators of CITIZENSHIP. They simply indicate that the individual has the privilege to drive. That would make them a national id card…something that most Americans have resisted.
Petrocelli @ 41
They also pay Social Security taxes (for which they will never claim), sales taxes (which go for services that many do use, admittedly), property taxes (if they live in apartments…that goes to the state, county or municipal tax base for schools). Probably there is a disproportionate number of single undocumented immigrants…thus they are not using school services at the same rate they put money into the system.
Where they DO likely place a burden on the system is in the case of them using Emergency Room Services and the fact that they don’t carry insurance because of their undocumented status. But we could reduce that “cost” by allowing them access to clinics where they pay for preventative health care without threat of deportation…and allowing them to obtain licenses and insurance. The licenses could be IDL’s, thus not indicative of citizenship status (which is actually true of all other State issued DL’s and ID’s…they are not a document of citizenship status, either). They could be used in Mexico, Guatamala, Canada, etc. The big issue is insurance and how to sort that mess out. But I’d rather have an undocumented have insurance than not.
Loo Hoo. @ 125
I guess that Wilkes should have cooperated with the prosecution like his buddy Mitchell Wade did. He better start squeling fast on all those Congressmen and Senators that he used his whores and cash to sway.
My guess is that there are going to a lot of very nervous Republicans deciding whether they want to become “undocumented immigrants” to Paraguay or Laos over the next fewweeks!
Anna Parenna @ 134
LOL!
I think the proper name would be the “Greater Asian North American Co-Prosperity Sphere”
First off, I want to point out that I don’t fully support Clinton at this point primarily because of her failure to fully reract her 2002 Vote on authorizing the War OPowers Resolution for Bush…and her foolish support for the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution. I’d much prefer a candidate that falls behind the big three who has a lot less lobbyist money (from corporations, trial lawyers,) and fewer connections with the New York Financial Giants.
Myrtle June @ 144
Well if that wasn’t his view in the Debate…he made it in the Stephanopolis interview. So I assume that he agrees with Dodd…and with Clinton that the Drivers Licenese issue is a State level decision. But like Hillary, he also has an opinion on whether Spitzer is going about it in the correct manner.
First off that’s what she said. But she also said she agreed with Spitzer’s approach. BTW SHE was the only one there at the debate that SUPPORTED Spitzer’s decision. Edwards, Dodd and Obama attacked her coming down on the same side as Spitzer. Just who was it at the debate saying that it was “Spitzer’s decision” OTHER than Hillary. I guess it’s only meddling when a Presidential candidate SUPPORTS a governors decision. But when the other candidates attacked Spitzer’s position… that’s NOT interference?
Second…Hillary recognized that it was also an issue that relates to comprehensive immigration reform, that it’s not simply an issue of licensing of drivers. That IS within the purview of a Senator, and a President. i didn’t here any of the other candidates say this in the debate…that there is an essential relationship between the proble,ss faced by Governors and the failure to deal with immigration issues nationally.
Edwards in the Stephanopolis interview essentially said precisely what Hillary said in the debate regarding the Governors perogative. He also picked up her point on it requiring larger immigration reform. If you disagree with that please point out the differences???
But Edwards, in that interview gave his own views as to a “proper” licensing system. He ONLY wants to give licenses to those “on the way to citizenship”.
Oh wait…isn’t that meddling with Spitzer’s decisions if a Presidential candiadate uses it as a campaign issue…and an area that the ex-Senator has already said isn’t his perogative? I’m now confused?
Now to the substance of Edward’s position on Driver’s Licenses: restricting DL’s to only those “on the way to citizenship”. What about all those foreign students attending New York universities and colleges. Should they be banned from driving? What about resident aliens or visiting businessmen who have no intent of becoming US Citizens? Should they be restricted from driving? And what does Edwards mean by “those on the way to citizenship”? Does he mean that people will ave to bring in a a copy of an application they have made to the US Immigration and Naturalization service? That they have applied for legal residency? That they have been granted legal residency?
Why doesn’t Edwards simply say that he isn’t in favor of giving illegal aliens Drivers Licenses? Or does he really intend on stripping the driving privileges of millions of people who currently have Drivers Licenses in this country?
And when he ran in 2004 why did Edwards say he was in favor of giving undocumented immigrants drivers licenses?
Why the flip-flop now?
So just who is unable to give a straight answer????
Sorry! There have been scores of polls showing that Hillary is well ahead of Obama and that Edwards sits down about 10%. My preferred candidate isn’t even in it. It’s not just a single poll…and not one “out of the Hillary campaign”. These are polls from all sorts of different sources ranging from TV networks to large newspapers (LA Times, Washington Post, LA Times), to colleges, to independent survey organizations (Zogby). They are all pretty consistant in their results. They have cumulative, sampled tens of thousands of people randomly…different people every month.
The very reason that Edwards and Obama have focussed their attention on Hillary is because THEY ALSO KNOW that they are behind and she is the strong frontrunner, not only nationally, but also in the early primary states.
I agree with you but unless you intend to ban the 1st Amendment and outlaw polling and surveys on anything. Otherwise I don’t know what to do about that except to encourage people to make up their own minds, watch the debates, look at a persons voting record and legislative history, and their prior statements. But you can’t force people from being lazy and opting to follow the crowd. In addition, people tend to gravitate to those that they believe will be competitive.
And the Right Wing hate screeds against Hillary have made her sort of an icon, justified or not, as the “anti-Republican”. Their own attacks have given her free media exposure for the last 18 years that she would never have gotten otherwise. Without it she’d be about as well-known as Mamie Eisenhower.
Hillary admittedly gains an advantage, but also an albatross by her “name recognition”. But in polls Obama has also come out of nowhere and surpasses Edwards, who was a Presidential candidate in 2003-4 and actually was the Vice-Presidential candidate with Kerry. Edwards should be doing far better than 10% or so based on name recognition. But because he “disappeared” from the political scene for four years he lost a lot of momentum. He didn’t have to take stands on many of the prominent issues of the time as a sitting Senator. He didn’t really come out and run actively for the last three years, building up a widespread national base of grass-roots support. I suspect that has hurt him. A lot of potential Edwards supporters jumped to Obama, who WAS the new face.
In my view if people really want to stop the Hillary leviathan either Edwards or Obama need to drop out and ask their supporters to support the other one. And that has to occur soon after the Iowa/NH primaries. If not before. It will require a great deal of will and humility, and supporters of that candidate will have to not stray to other candidates. My prognosis. T’aint gonna happen.
Beerfart Liberal @ 145
I’m not shocked. But then when their supporters assert that a) it wasn’t an attack, b) Hillary isn’t the front-runner, and c) that their candidate made a far more logically coherent argument that Hillary…
Well, I gotta laugh. The attack was to get Clinton flustered and to hope that it would result in some major F*ck-up. It didn’t. She came out of it virtually unscathed. Her poll results after the debate didn’t change an iota.
And it’s not so much that a front-runner was attacked, it was that Edwards and Obama, who have traditionally tried to portray themselves as being Presidential timbre because they were “above the fray” of political attack, stooped to it. It was almost like an episode of the McLaughlin group up there for awhile. One might have expected it from Dodd, or Biden…but not those two.
As far as actually coming out with a position on this issue distinct from Hillary…Obama, after the debate, essentially came down on the same side as Spitzer and Clinton.
And I’ve posted Edward’s somewhat difficult to comprehend position, enunciated on Stephanopolis’ show above.
A guest on WNYC’s Brian Lehrer Program this morning (public radio in NYC, 93.9FM) said the Spitzer licensin plan is actually the Utah Plan.
Whoah!?! Red State licences “illegals”?
Timmeh better be askin’ those Utah R Senators ’bout this! (But don’t hold your breath….)
http://www.stateline.org/live/…..tId=234828
Only Utah currently issues a different sort of license for people, including immigrants, who don’t have Social Security numbers. The state’s “driver privilege card” has red outlines and, at the top, states the card is “not valid identification for Utah government entity.”
“We paid very, very close attention to developments with Real ID and best practices,” said Jill Laws, a spokeswoman for Utah’s Department of Public Safety.