That Israeli attack on Syria has been in the news again … and the story gets more confusing with each new report. Last weekend we had a spate of news reports complete with “experts” and photos claiming to prove that the site hit was a North Korean style nuclear facility – days later a story started to circulate that the September raid had actually been flown by the US Air Force – and in what seems to be a mistranslation, involved the use of tactical nukes!
If you recall, in early September the Israelis flew a mission over Syria and apparently bombed something – that seems to be the only thing everyone agrees with.
At the time of the initial reports CNN’s Christiane Amanpour quoted U.S. government and military sources as saying they were “happy to have Israel convey to both Syria and Iran the message that they can get in and out and strike when necessary.”
But mostly secrecy reigned with Bush refusing to comment and Olmert playing coy – though he did sorta apologize to Turkey: “If Israeli planes indeed penetrated Turkish airspace, then it was without prior intent or any intent to infringe upon or undermine Turkish sovereignty, which we respect,” a statement from Olmert’s office cited him as telling the Cabinet – until reports last weekend that the site had been identified on satelitte photos of the area – and we had a new round of reports from “experts” that Syria, with North Korean help, was trying to build a nuclear bomb. (read: be very afraid!)
While Mohamed Elbaradei was noting that both Israel and the US had provided no information to the International Atomic Energy Agency about alleged Syrian nuclear activity before the strike which they should have done if their fears of Syrian nuclear plans were real, the Washington establishment preferred their own “intelligence.”
But once again, the intel was not so intelligent. The best deconstruction of this event so far appeared over at Moon of Alabama where Bernard sorts it all out – and I thought Firepups would find his analysis interesting:
Bernard looks at “Famed reporter Robin Wright’s” report in the Washington Post where she claims:
Photographs of the site taken before the secret Sept. 6 airstrike depict an isolated compound that includes a tall, boxy structure similar to the type of building used to house a gas-graphite reactor. They also show what could have been a pumping station used to supply cooling water for a reactor, say experts David Albright and Paul Brannan of the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS).
And then he takes a look at those “independent experts:”
Hmmm – independent experts … well … Paul Brannan got his BA in Government(!) in 2004 and is working at ISIS since then. ISIS itself has some four employees and its website doesn’t reveal how it finances itself.
Brannan, of ISIS, combed through a huge amount of satellite imagery to find a site along the Euphrates that matches a reactor’s specifications as well as descriptions of the attack site.
The ISIS analysis of the picture Mr. Brannan found is now available. It includes an aerial photograph of some building half a mile from the Euphrates that distinguishes itself by having approximately the same outer dimensions as the building that houses the North Korean Yongbyon reactor. That, and only that, is the big find the ISIS folks have. They note though that the Syrian building somehow has a smaller roof?
They also find some other slight differences like the unexplained lack of a reactor vessel that should be visible during the multiyear construction of such a site. But they assert that there are roads and a few trucks and signs of recent use of earth moving machines. There is also water pumped from the Euphrat and a few miles away something that might be a dirt airstrip. I am certain that is all very significant.
But topping all of this the experts Msr. Albright and Brennan also assert:
North Korean reactor construction is based on an old Russian model …
But the Yongbyon reactor, which these experts compare the Syrian site to, is a copy of the British Magnox design and certainly not based on anything Russian. Experts???
But indeed, Robin Wright tells us that these are ‘very serious people’ and certainly independent experts on reactor design issues.
The site ISIS claims to have found is quite in the middle of eastern Syria, some 80 miles south of the Turkish-Syrian boarder. A month ago some Robin Wright wrote in another WaPo piece on the issue:
The target of Israel’s attack was said to be in northern Syria, near the Turkish border.
She of course doesn’t make any attempt to solve the contradiction from her old to the newest ‘report’. Not that anybody would care. Nobody is looking for fire here. Lots of smoke is all that’s needed.
But just in case you live in a “tall, boxy structure similar to the type of building used to house a gas-graphite reactor,” please beware of U.S./Israeli F-16s.
I’m still not sure what happened in that Israeli attack – but watching this manufacturing of “experts” and intel” to justify it is a very good reminder to all of us to also beware as we move closer to an attack on Iran.
Take a look at the comments and full post over at Moon of Alabama – and also the discussion at the Agonist for some very solid discussion of all of this. (A special h/t to Bernard and annie for their very helpful discussion of US nukes Syria version of the story with me last night which can be read here. )
So anyone want to guess what the Israelis bombed … and why?
Update: Bernard points to this new post of Pat Lang’s as well:
The Syrian air strike farce is not re-assuring in this matter. It is increasingly clear that the target was insignificant and that the motivation for the attack is buried in the collective Israeli psychology of insecurity, siege and unwillingness to rely on anyone else (including the US) for anything.
The US should stop worrying about diplomacy among the mischievous and start worrying more about possible strategic catastrophe.
A blogtalkradio update: This Thursday at 11:30 AM ET on EPluribus Radio. Adam Lambert will be interviewing “Katie” whose story was told here. Katie is – as Adam wrote – “a mother of 10, grandmother and minister in the American Baptist Church in Erie, PA (who was) thrown in jail for 5 days for a peaceful protest against the war in Iraq. Oh yeah, she is a war mother with 2 sons that have served/are serving.” There’s more to the story and it should be fascinating listening!
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hmm
One is the loneliest number.
Make that two.
did not zed
You rang?
Well the images I would guess be in doubt and the target location but that come from a long history watching image manipulation.
Siun!
I posted this more than a week ago over at TNH and a slightly updated version over at Pat’s place tonite:
Actual intel or targets are only necessary if your purpose is actually military and not psych-ops or the seeding of fear. This was driven by the marketing schedule.
Israel is an utterly foreign occupier perpetrating an American Taxpayer funded and morally justified genocide on an indigenous people. Israel has no right to exist.
Israel, is The Enemy.
I can’t say that those photos are before and after a bombing. There’s no signs of any damage, other than the disappearance of the square building and the removal of a piece of hill to the right of it in the photos. (The right photo is higher resolution, too.) Nothing there looks much like reactor, though. I’d expect more bulk if that’s what it was for. Something like the big more or less cubical building that was in the middle of Lawrence Livermore in the 60s, maybe.
Strato … good point!
The images were trotted out, not whenever there’s a mention of the attack, it’s simply assumed the images are what the “experts” say they are…
Assuming for the moment the story suggesting we the US conducted the strike is wrong.. Who would want to start such a belated story and why? Israel?
Siun, I just don’t get it. Why isn’t Syria cryin’ bloody murder. And did the US really have something to do with directly? Ian Welsh’s post made me nervous. But I do appreciate that radioactivity levels would reveal whether the threat was Syria’s or those who bombed Syria. And lord amighty, if we did it, well damn us.
Thx for the blurb on the blogtalkradio show. I have spoken to Katie, she is full of energy and we are both excited for this show.
There is another piece to this story from the original diary on this – the US Attorney (Mary Beth Buchanan) who is the boss of the prosecutor,
Katie thinks that they may have been penalized more harshly to set an example of war critics being silenced.
And so like an old B-50 tele-com platform does the signal make it over the noise. who still has the eye and the ear to detect the B.S. and are fearless enough say no, I will not be stampeded.
Thomas Ware @ 9
But Siun, how can we wait for the smoking gun evidence to come in the form of a mushroom cloud?
I mean Syria is ready to march into Poland, Austria and the Rhineland too.
-GSD
Is any group trying to keep track of these kinds of cases. Arrests for peaceful protest, no-fly, etc. The background “noise” of police state abuse seems to be increasing but without a centralized registry, it is real?
The more I look at it, the more it resembles an X-ray of a human ear. Hmmmmm.
I find much of the current day Israeli foreign policy to be abhorrent, but the old ‘Israel has no right to exist’ line is reprehensible.
Please, no eliminationist rhetoric about any country or people.
-GSD
Loo Hoo. @ 16
Click on his blog of you want to see “where he comes from”.
link
Steve-AR @ 22
That’s my old hood! West side rules
A long time ago, when I was stationed at Osan AB as a F4 crew chief, I was on the Decontamintion team. If there was ever a chance of something nuclear happening, we would have flown missions to collect air samples from the area and take pictures and such. Hence the need for decon teams, for planes that might fly through …stuff. I’ll bet the same is still true. Has anyone ever heard results from those missions. If the story is true, there would be a large amount of real proof, not some of this niggling over satellite imagery that shows next to nothing.
I still remember that bugus intel that Colin Powell presented at the UN. I remember the U2 photos of the sites where the Russians were building launch pads in Cuba, and it didn’t take a rocket scientist to decipher them.
Steve-AR @ 18
And now with evidence of all this on servers and net tapping you give them those that support this thought crime, my thoughts or words must be closed off. We are near done. But who knows with two or three Isp’s left and they give your phone records with no warrant. sorry.
Decontamination, bogus. Spell check is not the enemy. Spell check…
Billmon of Whiskey Bar used to cross post with Moon Over Alabama and suggested that if readers were looking to comment, they should do it at Moon Over Alabama. Billmon had a relationship with that site and often referred his readers to check it out. I thought this might be pertinent. I know when I see something to do with Alabama, I usually run the other way. This is a different animal.
Reminds me of the joke about the travelling taxidermist. He’d made a pit stop at a local watering hole in the boonies. There was a lot of tension in the air……the ol’ bartender replied, “So, what zackly does a taxidermist do?”
The taxidermist answered, “Well, I mount animals.”
The bartender exclaimed, “Its alright boys, you can relax. He’s one of us!”.
So. Does the sequence of Burma and then in short order Pakistan register with J. Q. Public? Is the parallel to the situation here made clearer for the average American? In the terrible event that emergency powers are finally asserted in the U.S., will the lightbulbs go on?
Hmmm.
I am certain I read that the Kprean reactor the Syrians based their model on is GAS COOLED not water cooled, to the fact that tehre is a well delivering water to a building is not indicative that the building must be a nuclear reactor.
This is idiotic.
One of the most pertinent questions remains unasked and unanswered.
If North Korea was helping Syria build a nuclear facility, why is the US still negotiating with North Korea?
-GSD
argosfalcon @ 25
Here is a brand new thought crime law.. passed by the US House a week ago 404-6.
You have much more important things to think about, and none of that nasty dirt and sweat to deal with. Damn I have read your posts for some time and just wish the weight of your words had more effect (the story of all online posters) those of us that wish for something more keep on keeping on. Thanks Bill CQ off
hackworth @ 27
When Billmon decided to close his comments, many of us who were regulars created sites to continue the conversation. B’s Moon of Alabama has become the remaining home for folks who were Billmon regulars and the conversation continues to be stellar and international.
Idiots:
WaPo
I’m completely befuddled as to the reasons why you’d repeat, and link to, a post claiming that the US may have attacked Syria, with nuclear weapons yet, before downplaying said claim. It just muddies the water.
Steve-AR @ 34
Impeachment is off the table. – House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, 2007
clammyc – thank you for dropping by! the show should be really good – hope everyone listens
Steve-AR @ 34
Bush’s ’soft bigotry of low expectations’ in action once again. Find the baseline, worst possible result and aim just above that line.
Therefore, America is great because we “don’t chop off peoples’ heads” is what our standard has been lowered to.
Thanks alot George, Dick, Condi, Fox News and the rest of the semi-fascists running the show.
-GSD
Well no zed…but I will start the discourse.
First off, all the so-called experts were noting the similarities with a North Korean nuclear facility and this structure. In fact, there reall was only one similarity. The dimensions of the top of the facility. But if one looks carefully at the images of the facility in NK vs. the Syrian facility one also sees many major design differences.
The Syrian facility is a single tall building, a tower if you will. The Korean facility is very different. It is actually a much larger base structure with three tiers. The lower unit can be seen extended to the West and covers nearly as much square footage as the unit that is the tower, which is actually only one or two stories tall, then there is an additional unit on top.
The top unit has been much discussed by US News & Report and they assert that there appears to be a demarcated area on the top of the Syrian unit that conforms with the size of that structure. But, in fact, that demarcation is illusory. It is simply the effect that the concrete slabs used to roof the building has given. One can clearly see that the roof in the Syrian structure was poured in several sections, with the center unit actually being the same dimensions as the other units. Thus the squared “area” in the center is an artifact of the construction mode…not a designated area for a roof annex. And when one actually compares the size of the Korean units annex to the area of the Syrian “slab”…one can see the latter is actually proportionately much smaller. This doesn’t mean that there could NOT have been an additional unit placed atop the building. But at the same time there is no evidence that one WAS designed to be placed there.
The Korean structure also has several adjacent structures to the main nuclear unit. These are absent from the Korean structure.
I find it preposterous that a North Korean design was used to build this facility. Unless Syria was capable of, on their own, of moving away and improving NK design they would have kept very close to the plans of their more experienced “allies” (of which we have no evidence of any nuclear cooperation).
Second, the claim that the attack on the facility was through the use of a tactical nuclear weapon is equally absurd. Where is any atmospheric radiation count, where is any evidence of contamination in the Euphrates River that runs adjacent to the facility, where are the reports of a seismic event concordant with the use of a small nuclear bomb?
Why use a nuke to attack an unhardened surface facility. The supposed underground building, actually just a building partially covered up with earth and not very well “disguised” was not even targetted. THAT would have been the unit attacked by a nuclear weapon or “bunker buster”…not the large building.
The post-attack satellite imagery shows that the area where the structure once was has been razed by bulldozers. One is in the image, and the evidence of scour marks from their (its) prior work is also shown. But ONE bulldozer? It seems like they weren’t in that much of a rush to conceal the evidence.
And any use of nuclear weapons on the facility would make it “hot”. No clean-up could occur at all. There appears to be no decontamination facilities and vehicles are parked nearby.
There is no evidence that there was any substantial understory below the building. The bulldozer trails are in straight lines and not indented or rolling down as one would expect in they had to drive down a concave pit. There is no evidence that the dozer(s) extracted material from elsewhere to fill in a large concave pit.
And if can see the buried building, then why couldn’t the Israelis/USA? The fact that this structure, as well as the other structures, were not attacked is very odd to my mind. Why attack an unfinished shell, when the other units might actually contain much more critical technical equipment and personnel?
My wild guess…the facility may have been a missile storage site. Perhaps SCUDs.
Shorter Warmonger’s logic: “Saying that you don’t have a nuclear weapons program means we’ll have to bomb you to make sure.”
Such logic is much admired by the unhinged rulers of a certain empire and their fawning toadies.
Larry – the story is circulating and adds to the fog around this incident. I’ve been tracking all mentions and trying to sort out what really happened – and why… and this was one more wrinkle so worth looking at. The US nuke tale was supposedly run on Al Jazeera but only on their Arabic service and when folks did attempts at translation, they did not think AJ mentioned nukes – but Israeli media is playing this story.
so … it’s another piece of the puzzle
GSD @ 38
Ahh to be thought of as those that do not will/ not such things. Now I worry that my hands will stay where they were formed. As a fevered thought it must be dismissed.
Steve-AR @ 34
Neocons treat government as a giant PR machine, providing cover for the mega-rich as they rape and pillage the US Treasury, and the world’s economies. This article is more proof out of thousands of other examples.
ATTACCKKKK!
apishapa @ 29
I concur, and, it was Arms Control Wonk…
“The problem here is that North Korea’s reactors are gas-cooled. You see, if there is a pump , the reactor can not be, as David Sanger and Mark Mazzetti reported, “modeled on one North Korea has used to create its stockpile of nuclear weapons.” (A careful reader in the comments points out that the pump could be for a secondary cooling tower like the one at Yongbyon, a possibility that I neglected.)
So, one of the two stories is dead wrong. It either is either water-cooled or it resembles the reactor at Yongbyon, which is gas-cooled.
Now, in addition to light-water reactors, a heavy water reactor, like Iran is building at Arak, would have pumps. No one, however, seems to be suggesting an Iran-Syria link. I am not sure why — perhaps the pump drew H20 from the river.”
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com…..se#comment
By the way ACW has a lot more on it…
Steve-AR @ 34
Iraq was castrated in 1992. They couldn’t hurt anybody. Pakistan is a powder keg with nukes and millions of disenfranchised people(s) – with nothing to live for – except religious zeal – who would love to use them. They find US hegemony in the ME to be inspirational.
To think an incomplete site was hit, well the same target trigger was target signal was and has been taught for a long time. the voices must be looked at closely that say this is this not that. But its like looking for mass graves from a sat. image.
damn I wish I had more time. and more skill.
cinnamonape – interesting points!
One question – which b mentions at the end – is that these photos are from a location which does not really match the reported bombing site …
and b in his comments mentions that the location shown in the pics is on a traveled road that tourists use …
curiouser and curiouser
argos – you always bring some very good expertise to these discussions, thank you!
I must say the “after” picture looks an awful lot like some of the photoshop bloopers I’ve done :-P
so … I come down on the side arguing that the attack (which may or may not have hit anything) was a warning from Israel to Syria and Iran that it could fly in – but also to Washington that Israel will go after Iran if DC doesn’t. Editorials in JPost, etc say things like – if Washington doesn’t have the will, we do.
Then again, there are other possible interpretations – cinnamonpape says SCUD storage …
any other guesses?
ah but Peanutbutter! maybe you too could be an “expert!”
maybe ISIS is hiring … at only 4 staffers, they must need help!
Siun @ 51
Well we know the Bush’s hate baby formula sites.
Siun, I recall reading some comments attributed to the Israeli military, air force, stating that they had “regained their offensive capabilities” in light of the Israeli’s poor performance against Hezbollah in the summer war last year.
So it may be a many pronged message.
-GSD
Siun @ 52
It can’t take a very large staff to just make shit up without the slightest pretense of fact-checking.
EvilDrPuma @ 55
Hell, I could do that all by myself.
I’m no expert, but I don’t see other “bomb craters” around there or anything like that. This “photo evidence” might be pictures of something else entirely.
It is most frightening that we aren’t hearing the usual regional/national outcries about this. That’s what makes it spooky.
I second that armscontrolwonk is the best site for analysis of this.
Also: ISIS got Iraq right. Albright there is an actual technical guy who actually knows things. ISIS has been around for as long as I can remember (about 20 years) doing work that is just generically top notch, technically speaking. They are absolutely, positively, in no way Bush shills.
Also: gas / water cooling: even when the core is gas-cooled, it is passed through a water heat exchanger in a secondary loop outside the core. So a water cooling tower is not necessarily evidence against it being a North Korean design.
For what it’s worth, acw points out that US Intelligence spotted this many years ago and did not conclude it was nuclear.
What’s spooky to me is how a few initials (ISIS) and one reporter saying someone’s an expert becomes a story that apparently no one but a blogger is fact-checking. WTF.
Laura Doty @ 59
WTF is that some blogs have taken up the duty of presenting accurate information to the public that the media have abdicated. Not that they were ever as good at it as we’d like to believe.
EvilDrPuma @ 60
Exactly. And thank heavens for the souls doing this work. But–back to spooky–think of the millions who don’t know there is such information to be found….
Laura Doty @ 59
I think the silence is the most disconcerting thing of all. Are other countries now starting to hold their breath when the U.S. bloviates on the international scene?
Laura – sorta worrisome, eh?
The Syrians have protested and asked the UN to intervene but with no real result. And it seems – but this is complete conjecture on my part – that the Syrians don’t want to make too big a deal of this … though at the same time, there’s talk that Syria is expecting a much large Israeli attack.
Meanwhile, Condi is telling the Syrians to keep their hands off the upcoming Lebanese election
1,649 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Siun ans ALL the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
OK, it’s all been windin’ out in slow motion since 1963 but it’s done now…if any a you folks think that these krypto-Nazis are gunna give up ANY power or allow ANY of their own ta go ta jail secondary ta somethin’ “quaint” like a free election, well yer smokin’ some shit left over from Salvador Dali’s best parties.
We have but one recourse and that is to hit the streets en masse but targeting DEMOCRATS and the Democratic Party. We have a couple dogs already in the woods (Dodd and Edwards) and a big dog jest waitin’ in the kennel (Al Gore) but we hafta put the fight in front of the cameras and show the mass a folks that their only hope lies in the Democratic Party and with REAL Democrats. The coup is over, the fascists are in place in all three branches of government . The only hope is to fight for and WIN control of the Democratic Party and make wholesale criminal investigations and trials part of the campaign dialogue. This election is about restorin’ democrazy and is not about reconciliation or bi-partisanship.
The ol’ Norske was tellin’ folks back in September of 2006 (you out there rwcole?) that the “base” of the fascist Republican Party was between 17-25% and that a muscular Democratic message would isolate and expose that base. Now we’re faced with a consolidated fascist regime that has 17-25% approval and will not allow another election unless they succeed in chosin’ the Democratic nominee (read Mrs. Clinton here). If we ken put some testosterone back in the water supply for Democratic leaders we will force the existin’ junta ta suspend the constitution and deploy Blackwater and a couple a chosen battalions of airborn shock troopers. When that happens, the outcome depends on how unified the anti-fascist, democratic opposition is and who is leading it. Time to get down to it…the battle for a new Democratic Party has started and the existin’ Democratic leadership knows it.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID ‘CUZ WE DON’T HAVE ANYTHIN’ ELSE LEFT AND FREEDOM’S JEST ANOTHER WORD FOR NUTHIN’ LEFT TA LOSE!!
Much is being made of Syria’s not pushing things. But I think there is an argument to be made about NOT engaging a bully who can goad one toward drawing a line in the sand they would LIKE to cross. Or can make Assad look weak if he doesn’t draw the line….
pP.S. yes, that’s democrazy…a crazy idea outta the distant past and it’s time has come.
Within the last year, the Shrubistas roll out the red carpet for Pervez-apalooza, and for “Pectorals” Putin.
Seem strange to anyone that in such a short time later, these two are starting all sorts of sabre-rattling and tough talk against the US?
I can’t stop referring to the most decorated US military man ever, Major General Smedley Butler’s book, “War is a Racket,” written in 1935. In it he’s warning people about the Military-Industrial Complex (doesn’t use that phrase), and how working with the powers-that-be in other countries, they were creating the conditions in which WWII could start. Butler was blowing the whistle on the whole scam and letting people know that these people actually want war. Obviously, few listened. In fact, perpetual war means perpetual profits and power. The most chilling part of his writings and testimony before Congress for me was how Butler said these efforts were coordinated between the war profiteers in various countries.
Then, Eisenhower chooses, in his farewell address to the nation, to warn the public about this exact same issue!
I wonder what the Booshes and Putin and Musharaff and the assorted other dictators they’re friendly with have been talking about over the last year or two?
Is it crazy conspiracy talk that Shrub’s grandpa was one of Hitler’s bankers, even after WWII started? Or is it plain truth right in front of our eyes, that should be guiding our media, elected officials, and elecorate on what they should be doing to stop these madmen?
When there’s “curious” events like this Syrian bombing, if you understand this larger dynamic of perpetual war meaning perpetual profits, then things seem much more clear.
In honor of Smedley Butler, Eisenhower, and every other defender of our Constitution, we must stop war profiteers/mass murderers once and for all. ATTACCKKKK!!
Simple stupidity
Most official secrets were made secret to avoid making the govt look stupid, and almost all of the rest to avoid letting it look criminal. That leaves some vanishingly small percentage made secret to actually protect national security.
And the more the govt is allowed to keep secrets, the more and stupider stupid things it does. It will exercise some forethought if there is some predictable embarrassment that will follow if stupid projects are allowed to go forward. Remove that threat of embarrassment, and compartmentalize the govt itself as different arms of it keep secrets from each other, and the stupid grows and multiplies without constraint.
In this case, we have to consider not merely the original air strike on God knows what, for God knows what harebrained reasons, but the fact that the strike has been publicized for God knows what harebrained reasons. The fact of the story’s leak by the govt is a pretty good indicator that the strike itself was in the purely stupid and pointless category, rather than something they know is criminal. Therefore it is truly pointless to speculate as to the true “reasoning” behind the strike, and what they imagined they were doing, as if there must be some rational, if evil, end they were pursuing behind this cover story of a strike on a nuclear facility. The underlying reality is undoubtedly as muddled, foggy and pointless as the cover story.
One interpretation Laura was that Israel was trying to provoke Syria to attack … if so, Assad has been smart to downplay this.
Siun @ 69
Yes, that’s what I mean.
I think ol’ Norske probably has it just about right. If there is an election, either (preferably)(to them, I mean) Rudy or (their second choice) Hil will have to be the winner — with electroral engineering assistance if necessary — and on Inauguration Day or shortly thereafter we should absolutely expect a Gerry Ford-style “full and complete pardon” in order to end “our long national nightmare”. I don’t see any other ways out of the corner they’ve painted themselves into, partly because I don’t think they can view dropping the hammer at home (ala Burma or Pakistan) as a viable long-term move. That’s gotta be only a 3rd choice option for them, at best.
Bibi will arrive soon. And then we can attack Iran. Things are falling into place.
“Bahrain’s Crown Prince, Sheik Salman bin Isa al-Khalifa, said Friday that Iran is striving to acquire nuclear weaponry, Israel Radio reported.”
“Al Khalifa warned that the crisis could worsen and draw the region into military conflict.”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
Laura Doty @ 65
Syria’s done the smart thing, I think. What I find curious is no international hubbub. The silence is marked.
Hmmm. @ 71
Fortunately, Presidential Pardons don’t mean anything to The Hague…
Siun @ 48
that traveled road is somewhat to the east or west or north or south of the site itself…
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 75
A good guess ;-)
CTuttle @ 74
When you’ve got private jets and Texas, Uruguay, and Dubai to play in for the rest of your life, who needs the rest of the (extraditing) world?
Bonkers, I think you’ll like Naomi Klein’s book Shock Doctrine
if you haven’t already read it. The combination of chaos, torture and Friedman economics forced on to nations in crisis is an incredibly effective way for a handful of corporations (with the usual pirate crew on board) to exploit/control circumstances and resources.
I’m with you on getting rid of the villians who sell weapons. The U.S. has the dirtiest hands of all in the arms biz–by a long shot. (Puns not intended)
siun, my massive apologies. day w/mom.. extended, and all that.
excellent excellent post. i am now off to read the comments.
Perhaps the Democrats can write another letter to the prez telling him not to bomb Iran.
Laura Doty @ 78
I am still working on this book. Bit by bit. I actually cannot read more than a chapter or two at a time without wanting to hurl something. It’s a real eye opener, that book… Normally I wouldn’t worry about trying to finish a book in two weeks (for the salon), but…
Hmmm. @ 77
True, but, it certainly can be pursued, just ask Rummy… ;-)
CTuttle @ 82
Got away, though, didn’t
they let himhe?Hmmm … good points.
While I still worry about the lack of uproar after 9/11 when so many muslim men were disappeared here, I think that generally, the powersthatbe like to keep us moderately comfortable so we don’t cause irritating trouble while they pursue their plans.
So then the questions is – will we cause trouble even when we are comfortable?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 72
Don’t you find it telling that the Jerusalem Post that you link to, has an entire section labeled “Iranian Threat“.
It’s right next to “Home” and “Headlines”.
And then it’s followed by “Jewish World”, “Opinion”, “Business World” and “Real Estate”.
Hmmm. @ 83
It ain’t over yet, and, absentia could come into play…
annie! what a treat to have you join us!
for the Firepups who do not know her, annie is one of the very astute commentors at MoA and a wonderful activist.
CTuttle @ 74
Bush may be enough of a psychopath not to give blanker pardons. “They will deserve to be prosecuted because they fucked everything up.”
CTuttle @ 82
Under the principle of universal jurisdiction can someone be snatched off the streets of a neutral country as Eichmann was?
Mad Dogs – it is quite striking, eh?
There’s also this:
JPost.com » Israel » Article
Oct 25, 2007 0:56 | Updated Oct 25, 2007 17:49
US to speed up stealth fighter delivery to Israel
By YAAKOV KATZ
In an effort to bolster the Israel Air Force in the face of Iran’s race toward nuclear power, the Pentagon has agreed to move up delivery of its newest stealth fighter to Israel by two years, to as early as 2012, The Jerusalem Post has learned.
The Joint Strike Fighter.
Photo: AP
Last month, the IDF announced plans to purchase a squadron (at least 25 aircraft) of the fifth-generation Joint Strike Fighter. That delivery was expected to commence in 2014.
During meetings Defense Minister Ehud Barak held at the Pentagon last week, US defense officials agreed to allow Israel to begin receiving the aircraft as early as 2012, when delivery to the United States Air Force is set to begin.
Eight countries – including Britain, Turkey and Australia – are members of the Joint Strike Fighter project. Israel became a security cooperation participant after paying $20 million in 2003 for access to information accumulated during the jet’s development. The jet will be priced at between $50m. and $60m.
According to senior defense officials, Barak raised the issue with US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and asked that Israel begin receiving the stealth fighter as soon as it is operationally available.
“We asked that for every two jets manufactured for the US, one be manufactured for Israel,” a senior defense official said, adding that acquisition of the aircraft would greatly increase Israel’s deterrence as Iran races toward nuclear power.
“This plane can fly into downtown Teheran without anyone even knowing about it since it can’t be detected on radar,” the official said.
Steve-AR @ 88
I think he’s a pardoning kind of guy, when it comes to those who have served him loyally.
Siun @ 84
Thank you. I think their task now is very much to manage a smooth transition away from the rocks and back to a sleepy happy chubby (I can say that, I are one) public. Moving BushCheneyCo back to the shadows seems a necessary aspect of that after all this very visible upset. The election, followed by a pardon no more than 15% of the public, tops, will even understand, might be their optimal exit strategy.
Whether the same crew can continue to effctively steer the ship of state from the shadows remains to be seen. Whether the people will actually go back to sleep remains to be seen. But it seems BCCo must try to make that happen.
Hmmm.
peanutbutter @ 81
I powered through it so I can send it back with my Iraqi friend…having a reason to give it up helped me choke it down. Try the last chapter if you’re feeling like hurling…there’s hope.
Siun, I think we are being inconvenienced incrementally so that we get used to giving up our voice.
Good evening, Siun.
I have very little to add-points I would have made have been made by you and others, far better than I could have. I just wanted to say that I have never seen a post of yours that was not infused with a caring spirit and genius intellect. It is truly a pleasure to read your work and interact with you.
BTW, please send my kind regards to markfromireland? He left some very kind comments on some of my work, and I wish him well.
I want to echo the thanks for all the hard work folks put here. I’m mostly here in the peanut gallery, but I’m very appreciative…
Laura Doty @ 78
I saw the video trailer they put together to promote the book. It looks incredibly important, and I plan to read it soon.
Since they are part of the game, we know the Conglomerate Media will not give any airtime to books like this, so it’s up to us to get these stories into the hands of John Q. Nascar. That’s why I’m always pushing Eisenhower’s speech and Smedley Butler’s writings and testimony, and these particular writers are good since even self-described “conservatives” respect them.
If you haven’t read “War is a Racket,” you really should as well. It’s really short, and really creepy, since he’s talking about all these same things…in 1935! It’s like a big “HELLO?!? Wake up people!” even back then. He even testified in front of Congress about this, and the planned coup of FDR by these same war profiteers, and Prescott Bush was one of the people he was talking about. Shrub’s gramps fer cryin out loud! Hello America?!? You can do something about this!
http://www.warisaracket.com
What RonD and PB said.
***stein, where’s the antisemitic venom?
Me four. Thank you, Siun.
The fact that they/we aren’t calling for the IAEI to investigate this site is sufficient evidence it’s nothing.
I seem to recollect Carl Bernstein tagging Wright as an operative is some essay he wrote.
RonD – you’re making me blush!
I will send along your good wishes to mfi …
Laura Doty @ 98
Ditto. Thanks so much. Siun and Cinnamonape, you blow me away!
ct, move on, nothing to see there (waving)
Siun, every post you have written has made me think.
Thank you.
Hey, Suz!
Siun,
I thought you’d get a kick out of this comment from the Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick:
Read the rest of the column to get a feel for the warfever that seems to be de rigueur in certain quarters.
More from the same column:
The spin you ask? War is inevitable and a tad bit nasty, but Armegeddon is forever. Let’s do war!
Suzanne @ 104
Bonne Soir, Ma Cheri!
Loo Hoo. @ 102
Hey there! *waves*
Teddy’s upstairs.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nite-hope/
Hope is upstairs.
Suzanne @ 104
Likewise. Except that one where Maryam, the Iraqi doctor was in the comments. That was so uninspired and boring. ;)
(seriously, truly a testament to the power of this new media. Siun, you’re a trailblazer!)
Bonkers – sounds like a fascinating book!
Are you familiar with Vera Brittain’s writings? She was a young woman in the UK before WW1 and wrote several amazing books about both WW1 and then about her political work prior to WW2 … Testament of Youth begins the series but her Testament of Friendship and Testament of Experience really focus on her activism.
Vera Brittain
Siun @ 69
There doesn’t have to be “one interpretation”. Hoping for the remote possibility that Syria would retaliate doesn’t exclude the possibility of other hopes, namely the hope that this would serve to propel the big lie: Syria is part of the “axis of evil” with North Korea. This kind of thing opens possibilities for the Israelis and the U.S.; I don’t see it foreclosing any.
Siun @ 90
And since all of our F-117 Nighthawk Stealth Fighters (really light bombers) are being retired, I wonder if we’ll just “lend” them to Isr*el until those new F-35 JSF babies are ready for delivery?
There’s nothing like a good stealth fighter to be the life of the party.
One thing people don’t seem to be factoring in to the calculus is the likely Iranian response to an unprovoked attack-if they close the Shatt al-Arab (sp?)passageway from the Gulf, and all that Saudi, Kuwaiti, and Gulf State oil goes off the market-and the price of a barrel of oil doubles…American cities cannot feed themselves. If the trucking lines can’t buy fuel, due to non-availability or worthless money…I will leave to the imagination the spectacle of American cities without food and fuel.
Mad Dogs – thanks for the Glick link … I check JPost once a week or so, just to get a sense of the latest line but it always frightens me more!
Siun @ 112
Oh Siun! I so agree with you. I read those books in the early 70s…they were such an eye-opener.
ok, i have read all the comments.
;)
first off, if anyone didn’t bother to open siun’s link above “the Israelis flew a mission over Syria” DO IT. it leads to her first post about this and is an excellent backdrop.
NOTE.
At the end of August, John Bolton wrote a hawkish OpEd in the Wall Street Journal about the current negotiations with North Korea – ending with:
“Finally, we need to learn the details of North Korean nuclear cooperation with other countries. We know that both Iran and Syria have long cooperated with North Korea on ballistic missile programs, and the prospect of cooperation on nuclear matters is not far-fetched. Whether and to what extent Iran, Syria or others might be “safe havens” for North Korea’s nuclear weapons development, or may have already participated with or benefited from it, must be made clear.”
get it??????????
prior to the attack bolton was creaming for a NK/SYRIA connecton. this is a propaganda boom on 2 points. bolton is massively anti NK and the neocons considered the negotiation w/NK as a major cave in ad want to derail the upcoming finalities.
GSD
One of the most pertinent questions remains unasked and unanswered.
If North Korea was helping Syria build a nuclear facility, why is the US still negotiating with North Korea?
that is what bolton is trying to derail.
this is 2 pronged.
ok, lets all back up.
first we have bolton making the anti NK/syria editorial
then we have an attack
then we have silence/no explanation
then we have the british press
then the neonut jpost press
THEN we have the nyt/wapo chime in.
numero uno. when the latest news comes first from foriegn press it’s often propaganda. that is because it is illegal to print fabrication in the msm domestically. but it is NOT against the law to report what others reported.
moving along
we have the admission israel carried out an attack (take a bow, kudos/israel can do it!) snark
then we have the leak about it being a nuke site. which is proved to be bogus,
then we have the US DID IT.
this is all major BS imho. major.
CTuttle @ 74
Don’t see how The Hague would have any jurisdiction over prosecution of an American, whether an ex-president or just an ordinary citizen: “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law. . .” See the Sixth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. “District” means the judicial district where the crime(s) took place, here, the judicial district of the District of Columbia, where the war crimes emanated from. So what I am missing that creates any legal or constitutional basis for prosecution of an adminsitration official in The Hague?
RonD – important point and one I fear our favorite warmongers think Iran will be another walk in the park – just like the oh so ok Iraq.
annie – super analysis! thank you!
I liked your comment last night about everything they dream seems to come to be … sadly so true.
and the Bolton game is scary!
Siun @ 112
Haven’t heard of her. Will check it out. Thanks!
I truly believe that the global interdependency movement, post-WW2, is designed to harshly punish nations that try to do the kind of thing we’re talking about, wrt Iran…one doesn’t attack a nation one depends upon. America, to a large degree, seems to think it is self-sufficient. It is not-and I pray we don’t have to learn that in a very severe lesson. At the moment, we cannot be militarily defeated, not really-but we can be economically devastated, which may be worse.
one more thing. the outcome if all these different theories the press keeps publishing is what?? the the uninformed?? what??
syria nukes NK nukes syria nk nukes israel bombs syria nk nukes US bombs syria nk nukes syria nuke syria nuke NK nuke isreal fights nuke etc etc etc
mushroom clouds syria syria NKNK
branding propaganda
keep it in the news. make it mainsteam
then when the prez make a speech about niger docs everyone goes “really” axis of evil.. ‘really’.
not shocking anymore, it has been in the news again and again
it doesn’t matter what is true, it matters what we know. and what we know is for the last few months this story doesn’t die.
how many ways can you squeeze blodd out of a turnip?
w/fancy maps? diagrams? russian designs?
we are being played. bigtime.
GabrielOak @ 119
We do extradite U.S. citizens for trial in other jurisdictions. However, there is the so-called Hague Invasion Act. Per the Wikipedia:
another thing now that i am on a roll.
siun, thank you. you do a great service. you are so spot on, so aware. fdl is massively lucky to have you, we all are.
annie – I think you are precisely right. Even with this confusing story, it’s gone – in the MSM – from a mystery to “Attack on Syrian Nukes” rather quickly, with no pause to ask who, what, where, why
annie @ 126
Watch it-you’re going to make her blush-there is precedent. :)
As we all know … posts and FDL and all the blogs are an ongoing conversation which is what makes it all work and powerful. That’s one reason I wanted to do this post tonight – the work you all are doing over at MoA is powerful and deserves attention … and sure helps me understand and sort out what is going on!
annie @ 126
From me too. And for taking on the touchiest, almost orphan subjects, and handling them with such grace.
Siun @ 127
I don’t think there have been many things more desructive to the mind of the body politic in the US than the conglomera-tizing and entertainment-izing of the news media in this country. I can remember when this was not so.
Wigwam @ 125: Thank you for that enlightened backgrounder.
RonD @ 131
Yes–we’ve come back to pure yellow journalism.
BTW, forgive the ignorance…what is MoA?
1,647 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
If the Democrats in Congress roll over for the declaration of WWIII in Syria and Iran, then it won’t matter anyway, there won’t be an election. I really think that the fascists are wavin’ the bloody shirt and scarin’ the existin’ Democratic leadership into thinkin’ that an attack on Syria-Iran is next if they don’t give up the domestic house to the Nazi wannabes. This is very much like the “Hitler as risk taker” view A.J P. Taylor advanced. In this view, Hitler was walkin’ on the brink darin’ the British and French to oppose ‘im when he really couldn’t beat ‘em at the time…when the Brits and the French caved in, little Adolph had the time he needed ta consolidate militarily and geographically so that by 1939 he couldn’t be stopped. In this view, WWII was really the allies’ fault ‘cuz they coulda stopped Hitler if they had jest moved early enuff and Hitler was jest doin’ what any good nationalist would do in tryin’ ta get what he couldn’t take by threatenin’ ta take more…
We have the same situation here…it’s the Democratic leadership tryin ta run the clock out by appeasin’ the fascists on everythin’ domestically and hopin’ they won’t pull the trigger on WWIII before the ‘08 elections.
These people are the real thing and they don’t need anymore time to consolidate…I think it’s too late ta stop the next advance which is an attack on Iran AND Syria but we can have a unified opposition if we take care a bidness in the Democratic Party. The work of buildin’ a progressive opposition within the Democratic Party is NOT simply to win the ‘08 election but to have an organized and popular opposition front to hit the streets with numbers when the fascists suspend the Constitution.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY…
wigwam@125 – does that mean it’s up to citizens to handle the extradition?
Hi FDL,
I’ve blogged this a couple of times last month.
New revelations on the Israeli bombing of Syria
See also: The Three-fer for a discussion of why the neo-cons are so keen to claim the facility was nuclear – and how the NYT is up to their old tricks in helping them spread their lies.
GabrielOak @ 132
I really want to see those bastards brought to justice, but with
– presidential pardons (including self-pardons)
– immunity deals
– official opinions of legal counsel and the good-faith defense
– The Hague Invasion Act
– The tendency of liberals to “move on, and let bygones be bygones.”
I’m very concerned that this bunch will get off scott free, just like the Reagan Administration.
Siun @ 136
What do you have in mind? A fatwah? ;-)
sorry Ron – MoA = Moon of Alabama which grew out of Billmon’s blog and keeps that conversation going … brilliantly.
Ah! Makes perfect sense.
Peace.
b is awesome. i don’t do any ‘work’ there, i am just so honored to be able to be there and post. also, the incredible thing (one of) about moon is the international community. the sitemeter (bottom left corner of every page) is amazing, watching the world map! our regulars are from all over the globe. and b, being european has a voice that is unfiltered wrt american paranoia wrt topics we don’t really understand we are programmed to be silent about (israel etc).
anyway, stop on by, those of you who dare to hear the unleashed, and comment!
RonD @ 115
I think you mean the Strait of Hormuz. The Shatt al-Arab is the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates near Basra. Blocking that would cut off much of Iraq’s oil exports…and to secure that would require the US to do much what Saddam tried to do during the Iran-Iraq War and failed to accomplish. We’d have to occupy the oil-region of Khuzestan in Iran (capital Abadan) to prevent mining, missile attacks on tankers, etc.
The same situation exists at the Strait of Hormuz, another occupation would be necessary to protect shipping, as something as simple as a few guys with a shoulder-held rocket or mortars could wreak havoc. It’s a long coastline with lots of places to hide.
But even worse is the prospect of uprisings by Shiites in Iraq and the Gulf States. Bahrain is 70% Shiite, ruled by an autocratic Sunni monarchy. Kuwait is 30-40% Shiite, all of whom lack the vote. The UAE and Saudi Arabia also have substantial Shiite minorities, though they are often the majority in some places along the Persian Gulf.
A few airstrikes is likely to simply inflame these things, rather than to keep Iran in a box. In addition, any effort that moderates or liberals would emerge in the country, replacing Ahmadjinedad, would be set back decades.
wigwam @ 139
An “informal rendition”?
I saw the following at the Agonist on Saturday.
From the Jerusalem Post. (link follows)
True or not the report will serve to stir the waters in the middle east.
The September 6 raid over Syria was carried out by the US Air Force, the Al-Jazeera Web site reported Friday. The Web site quoted Israeli and Arab sources as saying that two US jets armed with tactical nuclear weapons carried out an attack on a suspected nuclear site under construction.
The sources were quoted as saying that Israeli F-15 and F-16 jets provided cover for the US planes.
The sources added that each US plane carried one tactical nuclear weapon and that the site was hit by one bomb and was totally destroyed.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
Thanks, cinnamon. I was trying to just wing it off the top of my head.
wigwam @ 138
Yeah, doesn’t look good for the rule of law these days. It would take quite the successor to GWB, working through a relentless and fearless Department of Justice, to have even a fighting chance of nailing any of those guys. Don’t see a whole lot of fearless D’s on the horizon. Hell, we can’t even stop an AG nominee who has all but embraced torture!
I don’t buy it. There would be a million traces that could not be easily covered, and even a tactical nuke can be as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb, the Little Boy. Radiation contamination, and detectors all over the world. Fallout. Heat-flash signatures for the satellites. And with the availability of high-yield thermobaric and FAE weapons, no real need for a nuke. I would need overwhelming evidence.
Nightowl – interesting link. I’d love to see the original Intelligence Online …
Topo … the Agonist post is linked above but I think the commenters there and at MoA did a good job of deconstructing that version of the tale – check the links I included at the end of the post to both, they go to those conversations and have lots of good info.
ron..to expand on siun answer re moon/billmon(whiskey bar blog)
Show me the way
To the next whiskey bar
Oh, don’t ask why
Oh, don’t ask why
For if we don’t find
The next whiskey bar
I tell you we must die
I tell you we must die
I tell you, I tell you
I tell you we must die
Oh, moon of Alabama
We now must say goodbye
We’ve lost our good old mama
And must have whiskey, oh, you know why
Oh, moon of Alabama
We now must say goodbye
We’ve lost our good old mama
And must have whiskey, oh, you know why
Well, show me the way
To the next little girl
Oh, don’t ask why
Oh, don’t ask why
Show me the way
To the next little girl
Oh, don’t ask why
Oh, don’t ask why
For if we don’t find
The next little girl
I tell you we must die
I tell you we must die
I tell you, I tell you
I tell you we must die
Oh, moon of Alabama
We now must say goodbye
We’ve lost our good old mama
And must have whiskey, oh, you know why
Bertolt Brecht
Good night, Siun. I’m going to stick my head in upstairs and say hi to Late Nite, and then to bed.
My best wishes to you and yours.
RonD – I agree with you. The story first popped up on newsnow (www.newsnow.co.uk – a super news reading source) from a rather obscure Israeli blog and was only later carried in the Jerusalem Post … I saw the earlier blog source, tried to track the mentioned Al Jazeera report but it’s only in Arabic but the whole thing felt … wrong. If there were a nuclear attack involved, I think we would have heard .. in fact, I think Bush would be strutting it at every opportunity.
Annie-you’ll be seeing me there. I promise. My best to you as well.
annie brings the Brecht! more appropriate than ever, eh?
topo,
don’t forget! AJ management in qatar was all fired last summer and replaced by US friendly (US ambassador from qatar, can’t get much friendlier) personel.
AJ is part of th grey mail now.
GabrielOak @ 147
I think Dodd would do it. He’s very proud of his father’s work as a prosecutor at Nuremberg, and has published a book of his letters from Nuremberg.
I really miss AJ’s old coverage … we have so few sources …
“pragmatic”, power hungry Clinton apologists should ponder the implications for (D) ascendancy of another war propaganda blitz, and likely largescale combat in Shia Iraq.
it doesn’t look good – Bush might not even want to turn over the Oval Office, elections notwithstanding.
Coincidentally, the crafty opportunistic thing to do for a (D) presidential candidate coincides with the right thing to do: oppose by all means an escalation with Iran.
Doesn’t mean they’ll do it, of course.
yeah!!!
be careful, we are highly addictive!
at least they won’t get airbombed anymore. too many assassinated journalists.
GabrielOak @ 119
But did the “crime” occur in the United States? The victims are clearly abroad (well except for those in Gitmo, which is either Cuban sovereign territory, and subject to Cuban law; or under legal control of the US). So here’s what the US Constitution says about THAT:
Amendment 11 – Judicial Limits.
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
“I don’t buy it. There would be a million traces that could not be easily covered,…….”
True, though something happened, and the information/disinformation is swirling about, also there have not been any reports about seismic events in the area. On the other paw, is there no evidence because no one is looking for evidence?
Siun @ 33
“Moon of Alabama” and Billmon’s own “Whisky Bar” are references to a song written by Kurt Weil and Bertold Brecht for their incredible musical theater piece “The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny”. Weil and Brecht both fled Nazi Germany in the ’30’s.
Many years later “The Doors” recorded “Moon of Alabama”, very cool ….
The Dodd book on his father’s work at Nuremburg is wonderful … really wonderful!
I’m sharing my copy with my mom but buying more for friends … we need to remember we once believed and stood for international law …
sorry, i made a massive mistake. in copying brechts song i used the doors version. brecht says ‘pretty girl’ not ‘little girl’. he also has this excellent verse
Well, I am late on this thread, but I am surprised that no one has floated Al the Spook’s theory of what was “really” involved in this incident. Al the Spook, some will recall, was a firepup until late September, when he dropped out, pleading preoccupation with other work. Before going “poof,” however, he laid out his theory at the above link. Here’s the short summary:
He raises a lot of interesting information, as well as evaluating a number of the alternative hypotheses. And he sees VP Cheney’s fingerprints on some of this:
I might add that some of those “reasons to believe” are named Elliot Abrams, and his father-in-law Podheretz.
Keep that in mind when considering Kucinich’s call to impeach Cheney.
The fact that this event remains without a satisfactory explanation should be a warning that the “explanations” that Siun gives us may ALL be cover stories to distract us from what the real mission was.
Bob in HI
Wigwam @ 156: Yes, I believe you are right about Dodd having the courage and inclination, although I admit I don’t know much about him. I only just heard about his father’s role at Nuremburg in the last few days when the Senator, God bless him, spoke out on the floor of the Senate. For a while there I thought we might be witnessing the Beginning of the End of Mukasey’s nomination. So who is following John Dean’s suggestion that agreement to appoint a special prosecutor ought to be the quid pro quo for confirmation of ANY nominee for Attorney General? Just wondering.
Years ago – many many years ago, I saw an amazing version of Three Penny Opera (Raul Julia played Mack – which is just a tiny whiff of how amazing) and I’ve always wished it was filmed and saved.
Brecht has a lot to teach us!
Gabriel – I know some NY firepups are going to Schumer’s office tomorrow to raise those issues with him!
And Bob – thanks so much for that … very interesting indeed!
Siun @ 152
So apparently the Jersualem Post is taking obscure Israeli blogs translations of al Jazeera reports in Arabic uncritically??? It would seem to me that someone would be monitoring AJ who speaks Arabic. And where did AJ get the report if they actually said it?
One would think that people would do basic fact and source checking…but it seems that any contrived tale that serves someones political purpose will get broadcast around the world and back like a mind virus. Theseare supposedly the ethical media that hold them up so much higher than the “progressive blogs”????
It seems that folks here are a lot more self critical and evaluative than the MSM and their editors!
annie @ 165
ET wants to do a production of “Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny”. I volunteered to go to Alaska and help. That piece is so great…..
cinnamonape – one thing that’s been interesting is the way the Israeli media has been as confused as us … and how they float multiple interpretations of the same incident all at once. Here, we have MSM who present one interpretation and stick to it …
cinnamonape @ 161
I’ll have to mull this one over. Would have thought that the locus of the conspiracy to start the agressive war against Iraq occurred in the White House and/or Camp David and other U.S. venues. Eleventh Amendment prohibits the federal courts from being used to circumvent state sovereign immunity as interpreted by Bill Rehnquist and his progeny, the 5 present knuckle-dragging neanderthals making up the right-wing block of the U.S. Supreme Court.
Siun @ 149
Check out the other link also, an in depth analysis with more corroborating sources.
Glad you also read Bernhard, he’s top notch. I use to blog a lot on Whiskey Bar during the old days, and was very grateful to Berhard for providing a place to land after Billmon shut down his comments.
Siun @ 169
Glad to hear the spark of justice is still alive and well at the grass roots! Thank you.
israelis have incredible press. unfortunately we don’t have any where near the open media in this country wrt israel as they do there. haaretz is an awesome resource. there are so many brilliant minds in israel, in solidarity. i swear w/out haaretz, we wouldn’t know jack sheet. they are really cool. we need to form strong alliances w/the cool (mostly non zionist) people in israel, they are our allies.
fahrender, see my 150 post w/my ammend @ 165.
the comments got too much for billmon, sometimes over 500 for every post. initially b just provided the space mostly, for comments on bollmons posts once he cut off comments. often g=he would comment on moon. b (bernhard) started writing more posts, and jerome too. finally when billon quit altogether b started really kicking in. he has an excellent mind, monitors well and rarely, and is spot on.
last winter a (big)bunch of us met up in europe for a couple weeks. wow. massively cool.
Topo @ 162
Lots of seismic labs at Universities, in Europe as well as elsewhere. A nuke of this type would leave a very characteristic signature as opposed to an earthquake. It would stand out like a sore thumb, just as the abortive NK nuke test (which likely only detonated the high explosive trigger) was picked up.
Nuclear contamination would also be in the air, and in the water of the Euphrates. If Syria was attacked by a nuke (as opposed to a conventional weapon) THEY would use this quite loudly to isolate a) Israel, and b) the US. They’d have half the IAEA in there testing.
cinnamonape
hellooooo???
quoting b..
File the JPost/AlJazeera stuff under “use with tin-foil-hat only”. The story is bogus A to Z.
reference
ducking out … need to grab some sleep here but thanks to all for the really helpful links and info and thinking!
and thanks annie for bringing a breath of MoA to FDL!
The Syria Strike?
This is a “story” constructed of connecting fanciful and imaginary dots. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. *g*
The MSM has variously reported on the Israeli’s strike against a Syrian “Nuclear Facility”. There is a great deal of rumors about just what took place, how it was done and what the meaning of it is.
Speculate along with me here.
MSM reports state that Israeli F-15s, F-16s and at least one EW/ECM aircraft penetrated Syria’s borders to destroy a nascent Syrian Nuclear Facility. The original MSM reports also had “drop tanks” found in neighboring Turkey.
Additionally, the original MSM reports had “claims” by unidentified Israelis that stated they had “successfully” spoofed the Syrian radar facilities so that the Syrians didn’t even “see” the Israeli aircraft. And it was also intimated by the same unidentified Israelis to be a “warning” to the Iranians who used the very same Russian-supplied radar, that these very same type of radar facilities in Iran would also never “see” an attack coming.
Now, as many here know, it is de rigueur in the black world of intelligence, to “mask” ones operations with “constructed” cover stories. Cover stories that may contain partial truths, but those partial truths are designed to lead one away from the real story.
Consider the previously described MSM “reports” as part of the “cover story”. They contain “partial truths” to lead one away from the real truth.
Put on your tin-foil hat and allow me to “speculate” on that real truth.
First, there were no Israeli F-15s, F-16s or EW/ECM aircraft involved in the Syrian strike.
The US has recently been in the process of “retiring” the F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighters (they are in fact not fighters at all, but really just light bombers). Per Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk:
Second, take a look at this article summary from the Jerusalem Post:
Third, remember that George W. Bush would not comment under any circumstances about the Israeli strike on the Syrian “facility” and nor would any other highly placed Administration officials. The only thing that unidentified highly-placed Administration officials would say was that all of the information regarding this was tightly held to only a very few individuals in the Administration, and that they even excluded from almost all of the US intelligence and defense community.
What if the following happened?
The US provided its “retired” F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighters to Israel. In sufficient numbers that Israel could form up a squadron of F-117s.
The US didn’t need the F-117s anymore, since the far more stealthy B-2 Spirit bomber was more efficient and effective as a bomber, and the fact that far more stealthy F/A-22 Raptors as fighters and attack aircraft are now in operational squadron-level service.
The Israelis would be more than happy to have the stealthy “hand-me-downs” since they wouldn’t be seeing their newer F-35 JSFs until 2012. Too late for folks who are contemplating how to successfully strike Iran and live to strike another day.
After Israeli pilots had undergone all necessary F-117 training here and in Israel, the “powers-that-be” in both Israel and the US, approved of a plan to operationally test the Israeli F-117 squadron with a real, live mission.
The plan was to:
1. Ingress into Syrian airspace undetected by their relatively new Russian-supplied radar facilities in order to prove that F-117 stealth was still effective. These same relatively new Russian-supplied radar facilities are also the mainstay of Iran’s radar systems.
2. Destroy a nascent Syrian military facility (could be a nuclear reactor under construction or something else).
3. Egress from Syrian airspace, again being undetected all the while.
The rationale behind the plan was for the Israelis to “test-drive” their new F-117 squadron against a real, live enemy in preparation for a larger, more meaningul mission against a similarly-defended Iran.
Another part of the rationale is that it would be less “political” trouble here in the US if it was the Israelis who took on Iran rather than the US. The added benefits to the Israelis would be a boost in their nation’s morale and ego if it were viewed on the world stage as another successful Israeli “Osirak Raid”, as well as the benefit the Israelis would derive of continued “strength” and “superiority” in the eyes of their Muslim foes.
So there you have it. A fanciful tale imaginatively told.
ohh, i just lost a long comment. it disappeared???
siun!
thanks so much. great chat!
g’night siun! and thank you a mill!!!
annie, it was caught in the filters and has been freed – refresh the page (not just the refresh comments button) and it is there
annie @ 181
Hard refresh should reveal it, annie.
fahrender @ 163
There was one other in the Brecht entourage. The musician Hans Eisler who also was able to flee before the Nazis got his head. In fact, Brecht, Weil and Eisler may have been fortunate to have been “targetted” artists whose works were burnt in the streets (the model for Fahrenheit 400). At least they knew they had to leave to preserve their artistic expression. If they had waited one or two more years they likely would have been interned.
Eisler eventually made his way, like Brecht and Weil…to the US. He was deported to East Germany after the HUAC witch-hunts simply for the fact that he had created patriotic music for the USSR. He was hardly received as a hero, and appears to have been a realist when it came to the conditions in the Warsaw pact. He loved America and Americans; he really disliked the Government, though.
fahrender @ 171
Oooh! Doesn’t it supposedly take place in a lawless fronteir Alaskan town?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R….._Mahagonny
i like mad dogs
GabrielOak @ 173
The conspiracy certainly begins in the United States…but the actual crime occurred abroad. That means the victims have standing and that the trial can be brought forth by the victims in the Hague, THEY are not prevented from doing so. And the law you cite certainly makes it difficult for the Hague to investigate or arrest war criminals resident in the US. I wonder, though ifthat would not confer immunity on some Nazi, Serbian, or Khmer Rouge murderer who obtained citizenship here.
But non-cooperation doesn’t mean that they will PREVENT arrest and actively defend such a person. At least that’s not what the law says. In fact it suggests that the US Gov’t should stay neutral. If the Hague can arrest the individual abroad…they the US will not “protest” (I’m not sure about the use of bounty-hunters??). And open source information can be used. Individuals could be compelled by subpoena to testify or the Hague could place international sanctions upon them or their businesses. And international businesses could be placed under pressure to separate themselves from indicted individuals or face trade sanctions.
annie @ 188
((((Blush!)))
I’m not sure whether to curtsy or to swoon. *g*
cinnamonape @ 189
Mahalo, Cinnamon ape, I wasn’t aware the party was still going on… Excellent points, It would behoove the US to stand aside and not hinder the prosecution, one could hope a Dem Prez would even assist, but, that would be a stretch! Paraguay, is likely Shrub’s best option! ;-)
Siun @ 11
You don’t buy into anything Alfred The Spook has blogged, do ya.
Cuz IT pretty much subsumes all yer posits . . . . Avec raisons or not.
Oh, I’m sorry, you never come out and state a position.
Where are the nukes from Barksdale? Where did they go?
If MSM is right, why hasn’t there been a nuke signature from the so called Syrian bomging that REVEALS either the nuke busters of Isreal or US planes?
I dunno Siun, what’s new and unusual behind the scenes that you always post to know about but you never fully reveal?
What’s at the heart of this supposed Syrian bombing matter, Siun?
What do YOU think?
What do you ACTUALLY THINK, about this incident, and the B-52 Barksdale Nukes, and how it’s all tied together?
What do YOU think?
stratocruiser @ 24
WORD! *G* That means I agree with ya . . . this whole issue stinks and NOTHING revealed yet, other than a failed DO on Iran’s Natenz Facility, really covers the truth.
Syrian SAM missle sites (recently upgraded by Russian help) in Syria opened up on an Isreali overflight.
A rookie Isreali pilot paniced when SAM radar lit him up. He dropped some conventional weapons, and then other Syrian SAM batteries radar’ed the Isreali squadron and the flight turned tail and ran.
There WERE nukes on the Isreali fighters, targeted for Natenz, Iran.
None were dropped . . . the Syrian photos about nothing are still about nothing.
But Cheney likely knew about this ops, he was LIKELY a leader or an enabler, and the Russians blew the whistle on it and alerted the Syrians who lit up the SAM sites.
We can thank the Russians for saving us from yet another attempt by USA and Isreal to launch WW3 and create some nightmarish image of Armegeddon.
That’s what it’s all abouot.
Harumph.
Damn. Missed this thread…
Getting caught up in the engineering details might be a bit of a red herring. Silence by US/Isarael is key. So is the fact that Syria hasn’t invited the UN to the site.
Nobody wants to talk about this for their individual reasons.
mad dog, a wink will suffice ;)
@larue
sometimes life’s a bit of a mystery, especially when the stories one hears don’t ad up.
ooooohkie dokie. your certainty is …refreshing?
Just in case it hasn’t already been brought to the attention of the ever-present and ever-superb Mods, the front page with Jane’s post is broken for all of us on IE (and perhaps others).
I’m using one of the forbidden words of “Poker” to get this stuck in moderation for the delivery of the above message.
And don’t worry, I can be really, really patient. *g*
~~~Mod Note: Thank you for the interesting means of providing the information. The problem is being worked on. And we do appreciate the patience~~~
Siun @ 51
It might be a last-gasp try by Bush to claim nukes which had been held by Saddam Hussein in Iraq were quietly shipped to Syria and stored in those buildings.
Never let it be said Americans aren’t resourceful in everything we do, even lying.
Dirty Bomb Harry: Were there six nukes or only five, hanging from that B-52 airplane wing? Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?