A lot of people fantasize about telling off the boss. Every so often, someone does it. But rare is the time when it gets done en masse, and the tapes of the telling off become public.
I’m guessing that the top floor at State is not a happy place. The career people downstairs are getting restless . . . and the political people upstairs haven’t a clue about how to deal with it. If they’d been paying attention, though, they could have seen this coming.
Four and a half years ago, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, a twenty year veteran of the State Department named John Brady Kiesling, wrote a scathing letter of resignation to then-Secretary Powell:
I am writing you to submit my resignation from the Foreign Service of the United States and from my position as Political Counselor in U.S. Embassy Athens, effective March 7. I do so with a heavy heart. The baggage of my upbringing included a felt obligation to give something back to my country. Service as a U.S. diplomat was a dream job. I was paid to understand foreign languages and cultures, to seek out diplomats, politicians, scholars and journalists, and to persuade them that U.S. interests and theirs fundamentally coincided. My faith in my country and its values was the most powerful weapon in my diplomatic arsenal.
. . . [U]ntil this administration it had been possible to believe that by upholding the policies of my president I was also upholding the interests of the American people and the world. I believe it no longer. . .
Kiesling’s letter went not only to Powell, but also through the diplomatic grapevine. Two other FSOs joined Kiesling and wrote their own letters of resignation, citing similar reasons. Said 22 year veteran John Brown:
The president has failed:
- To explain clearly why our brave men and women in uniform should be ready to sacrifice their lives in a war on Iraq at this time;
- To lay out the full ramifications of this war, including the extent of innocent civilian casualties;
- To specify the economic costs of the war for ordinary Americans;
- To clarify how the war would help rid the world of terror;
- To take international public opinion against the war into serious consideration.
Throughout the globe the United States is becoming associated with the unjustified use of force. The president’s disregard for views in other nations, borne out by his neglect of public diplomacy, is giving birth to an anti-American century.
I joined the Foreign Service because I love our country. Respectfully, Mr. Secretary, I am now bringing this calling to a close, with a heavy heart but for the same reason that I embraced it.
But most personally painful for Powell was probably the letter from Mary Wright:
When I last saw you in Kabul in January, 2002 you arrived to officially open the U.S. Embassy that I had helped reestablish in December, 2001 as the first political officer. At that time I could not have imagined that I would be writing a year later to resign from the Foreign Service because of U.S. policies. All my adult life I have been in service to the United States. I have been a diplomat for fifteen years and the Deputy Chief of Mission in our Embassies in Sierra Leone, Micronesia, Afghanistan (briefly) and Mongolia. I have also had assignments in Somalia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Grenada and Nicaragua. I received the State Department’s Award for Heroism as Charge d’Affaires during the evacuation of Sierra Leone in 1997. I was 26 years in the U.S. Army/Army Reserves and participated in civil reconstruction projects after military operations in Grenada, Panama and Somalia. I attained the rank of Colonel during my military service.
This is the only time in my many years serving America that I have felt I cannot represent the policies of an Administration of the United States. I disagree with the Administration’s policies on Iraq, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, North Korea and curtailment of civil liberties in the U.S. itself. I believe the Administration’s policies are making the world a more dangerous, not a safer, place. I feel obligated morally and professionally to set out my very deep and firm concerns on these policies and to resign from government service as I cannot defend or implement them. . .
Things don’t seem to have improved in the last four years, and the career folks don’t have much of a stomach for going into a battle zone without the proper tools, training, and support to do their jobs. Sending them emails late on a Friday probably didn’t help much.
This is not just bureacratic whining. It is not too much of a stretch to compare career officers at State with their career professional counterparts at the DOD or the DOJ. There is a rigorous selection process, followed by 3 months to a year of training, and then a five year probation period, to see if your language skills are up to snuff and to observe your skills as a consular officer. These are not people who lack commitment or dedication.
Secretary Rice, these people are now turning their commitment and dedication on you. You are on the verge of a mutiny, because the Bush Administration has failed and failed and failed yet again to listen to highly trained career employees when they challenge the political spinmeisters at the White House. If you force 48 of them to accept an involuntary posting to Iraq, you will achieve nothing except the destruction of any last shred of support from those who work at Foggy Bottom and in US embassies around the world.
But don’t lose hope, Madam Secretary — there are some State Department folks who apparently really want to go to Iraq. Despite what some of his underlings are telling Henry Waxman, Inspector General Howard Krongard says he would just love to go to Iraq but doesn’t have the budget for it. Maybe you could scale back the budget for political attaches in Iraq next year, and use the savings to send IG Krongard instead.
(Photo via magandafille.)
Related posts:





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

THANKS PETERR!
hiya!!
Let Condi go. She can telecommute.
Bush has destroyed the State Department just as he has destroyed the Justice Department, FEMA, the EPA, and everything else his fascist hands turn to pus. It’s deliberate. Replacing competent professionals with incompetent ideologues. Forcing American into moral and fiscal bankruptcy. Dragging the US to Grover Norquist’s neo-con bathtub, and shoving her underwater — while, of course, not calling that torture.
Nice segue from the last thread, Peterr…!
The competent, talented, ethical people just can’t stomach the zampolit any more.
The Iraq attack was based on lies. And is therefore an illegal war. It is an immoral endeavor. My view is this action (Iraq war) goes against the teachings of the New Testamant.
principled apparatchiks can stave off the worst for a while, but they will likely be replaced by political hacks of the worst sort.
then the rot will worsen like at the “Justice” Dept.
I’ve been asking for weeks and weeks why we have diplomats in a war zone in the first place. I was delighted to read today what you are terming a “mutiny.”
How interesting that “boots on the ground” in terms of troops and diplomats can see what the folks at the top refuse to believe.
Do you think a lot of people will make their resigning letters public?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
OKK – I saw a little squib from a paper (Houston?) that claimed that Bush has now stopped going to church. He rides his bike instead.
Perhaps this whole maneuver is designed to make the non believers resign and make room for new Regent grads.
So..in light of the fact that Condi has said that she was unaware of what was going on in Iraq lately…I went back and looked again at some things…
I’m wondering now, if she was actually telling the truth when she said she didn’t remember being specifically warned by…ta..da…Tenet and Cofer Black….that an attack on the US was imminent.
http://lastperson.suncircle.or…..581.0;wap2
Now, in the last thread…it occurred to me that the leaker of Valerie Plame’s name was non other than the “no partisan Gunslinger” as in “Blackwater” Vice Chairman, Cofer Black…30 years CIA — not Armitage per se. I’ll bet you Black knew exactly who she was/is.
Phoenix Woman @ 6
Why haven’t they resigned and spoken up? Why hasn’t Colin Powell come forward and maybe stop some of this mess? For those who have been in the diplomatic service for a long time, I ask why have you waited. For those know-nothings that Bush has put there, I say you belong in Iraq since you didn’t have any problem sending other young people to die.
Condi’s Lament
or
The Turd don’t fall far from the tree:
Are we prepared to say Powell should have resigned in protest of the Iraq invasion.
Whining, slavery-supporting wimps.
Go ahead, resign.
Regent has a bumper crop graduating in the spring.
Aaargh… scooped by ES at #12.
Who would have known that Grover Norquist’s bathtub would be used to waterboard all of America.
-GSD
OT but LT Gen. Odierno is giving an update on C-span!
Condi – the biggest Patsy ever (except for Powell, of course)..and their are certainly others…
I think she’s been used and has zero clue.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
Yes Yes and Yes. A person of integrity would have. I have no patience with all this support the chief. BS
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
Yes, but before the invasion and with a big long letter in the newspapers.
Compartmentalization.
Twain @ 14
There’s a sense among the career folks — in almost every department — that the errors of any particular administration can be weathered. Career folks are permanent, but political people are temps.
Bush is sorely testing that theory.
Colin Powell is an abject moral coward.
Expecting him to behave morally is pointless.
He’s merely a few click’s up from Bush on the moral degradation scale.
-GSD
LS @ 20
Not only has this woman been used, she has in a sense, been abused too.
How come Bush hasn’t shown a bunch of “Grand Opening” pics of the Embassey? He should be proud of it and show it off to us…..
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
who abused her?
Peterr @ 24
But I seem to recall someone claiming in 2000 that there was no difference between Bush and Gore.
Now, who was that ?
This is all part of the R plan to destroy the govt, one part at a time, or altogether, depending on which works better.
Q. Is Baghdad’s Electricity up?
A. The Mega-wattage is up, and, the refineries output is up… and their oil export levels are up…
For the benefit of whom, General? 8-(
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
If he were the upstanding man of honor he pretended to be, sure. But since his early days helping to cover up the My Lai massacre Powell has really been nothing more than a water-carrier for his bosses, doing whatever dirty job they want and lying for them. He gave his fateful speech to the UN Security Council knowing full well it was filled with lies. Powell is not a man to respect in any way.
That was a great post. I keep wondering why people keep getting surprised that everyone doesn’t immediately fall into lockstep with whatever the Bush adminstration comes up with on any particular day.
I refer to it as a congenital lack of imagination.
eCAHNomics @ 30
I was just about to say the same thing. (Probably in more words.) (Hi all!)
Hmmm.
GSD @ 25
Sorriest for this thing I never said:
Colin Powell’s wife writes children’s books. Sometime after invasion of Iraq (summer 04 I think), she was doing a signing in Manhattan. Since I have young great nieces & nephews, I decided to go. Standing in the very short line, I crafted a Q: Why does your husband want to be the losing member of a losing team. But then I made myself be polite & didn’t say anything. I’ve been sorry ever since.
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 28
George W. Bush.
allan_in_upstate @ 29
Some WATB who now claims the D’s sabotaged his campaign in ‘04 and is suing.
puppethead @ 32
Wow, a Major responsible for investigating My Lai…
eCah,
Mrs. Powell is not a political hack, operative and baloney massager for Colin, like, say the repulsive Mrs. Darth Cheney.
She really is an innoncent.
Pickles Bush, the Cheney daughters and of course Mrs. Darth are fair game because they are all amoral shills for their families evil doings.
-GSD
LS @ 13
No one could have anticipated an attack on the WTC. Except, the Air Force and most national security agencies which were doing war games on Sept. 11, 2001. The scenario was an attack on the WTC by Bin Laden terrorists. Conveniently, the F-16 fighters were sent away from New York, as the attack was carried out. Perhaps Mohammed Atta was paid $100,000 to be part of the War Game.
It is the way of today’s corporate world,and by extension, the White House, to trample under folks who think for themselves and have integrity.
They are not interested in being questioned, only unblinking fealty. That is what Bush and his old man mean by their vaunted ‘loyalty.’
It is no accident honest Americans are driven off: it is in the design.
If the Bushians consolidate their power, what do you reckon they have in mind for us?
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1101.html
I have long wondered how the Germans gave themselves over to Hitler – I never dreamed I would live it.
Has this been posted? Hunter is insane.
HuffPo
Perhaps many have stayed because they know that idiots will replace them and weaken the country even further.
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 28
Laura
It is telling about “who” they chose for both Secretaries of State…to take the fall for their heinous actions. These people, secretive as they are, are so transparent at the same time.
They have waged war on non-white people the world over. Afghanistan, Iraq, Katrina…and now they are after Iran, Syria, North Korea.
Blatant.
Crimes against humanity. It just makes me sick.
GSD @ 39
I don’t believe that adult members of the W Crime Family are innocent in any way.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
In the sense Bush abuses everything he touches, I concur.
OTOH, Rice is a very bright woman who knew what she was doing. She bears a full portion of responsibility.
LS @ 20
Foreign policy and the DOJ has been run out of Darth’s office since day one, and still is.
Why did Bushco wait so long to do this and why now? Could this be related to attacking Iran?
Steve-AR @ 42
Let them do it after they learn to speak the language(s) of Iraq, spend their year in diplomatic bootcamp, and then do at least part of their probationary period elsewhere.
Good grief.
Steve-AR @ 42
Warped personality.
Eureka Springs @ 49
I like the way you think.
John Brown has given us the name of the new century.
It is not the American Century or the New American Century.
It is the Anti-American Century.
Peterr @ 50
But Peterr,
Doncha know? We’re ‘Murikans so we don’t need to learn their language! Why English is good enuf fer us so it should be good enuf fer them too! Why should our folks have to do all the work? /s
I miss the spinning wheel telling us when the thread is spent!
Steve-AR @ 42
This has been another episode of Simple Solutions to Complex Problems.
LS @ 45
Just like Mel Martinez and Alberto Gonzalez. Use the kapos to shove their own peoples’ face in shit.
A more depraved lot there has never been in America.
-GSD
diogenes @ 41
That quote says it all:
Bush is the dumb fuck that should have listening to warning from bin laden. MoveOn and Code Pink merely remind Bush of his dereliction of duty.
Steve-AR @ 42
Yeah, send Max Cleland over there. He’s got the stuff to tell his bosses where to stuff it.
Bush the anti-diplomater.
LS @ 45
When I speak of Condi being ‘abused’… what you say is part of what I mean.
Steve-AR @ 42
I am pretty sure that would be dying patriotism.
dakine01 @ 54
Yeah! King James English was good enough for God!
Eureka Springs @ 49
Things are going to get progressively worse as the ‘08 election nears. Acts of terror within our borders, closing of our borders, blackwater taking over were the military used to function, etc. If you think things are bad now just wait. Fascism is here now and has been here ever since the appointment of the Cheney and Bush way back when. Still hard to believe. And it happened at a time in our planet’s history when we need sanity more than ever. Fuckery to put it mildly.
“Reluctant Nellies…” ;-)
GordonM @ 63
I wonder how many folks who believe that the King James bible is the divine word of Dog know that King James was a pederast.
dakine01 @ 66
Was he also a Republican?
I hope Helen Thomas asks Frato or whomever.. Define fascism?
dakine01 @ 66
Where you rest your feet instead of the coffee table?
Peterr @ 24
I think some people stick it out because they feel that they can make a contribution through the projects they are involved in and that they are doing good work.
Fern @ 70
Or cause of govt health insurance.
Twain @ 67
No, he was King. Or is that, Yes, he was King.
WTF if this about?? Obama refuses to sign the Webb letter after beating up on Hillary about Iran.
HuffPo
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 69
Careful, Missie…! ;-)
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 69
Uh. no. And anything further, you have to ask Aunt Betsy. :})
dakine01 @ 75
She said it’s the neocon who works with Giuliani.
All successful revolutions begin with those in the lower echelons of the party in power rising up with the rest of the people and demanding change. If career diplomats are in the Lake right now, take the Bushies to task!
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 69
Hmm. Anyone got an Oxford? Care to look up the etymology of Ottoman (as a piece of furniture)?
Speaking of Kingdoms and pederasts.
Dubai’s in denial.
-GSD
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 76
lol, good answer!
marymccurnin @ 64
Ya know, it used to be only my dark side used to think we’d seen our last free election, but these days….
Certainly no time for us to be good Germans.
found it
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 71
Well, that too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
Yes indeedy OKK and Lahoma!!!
Steve-AR @ 73
Steve-AR @ 73
Whoa Nellie, check this out…
“Democrat Barack Obama introduced a Senate resolution late Thursday that says President Bush does not have authority to use military force against Iran, the latest move in a debate with presidential rival Hillary Rodham Clinton about how to respond to that country’s nuclear ambitions.”
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Poli…..id=3808836
Oh, Snarky, I thought you were joking.
At 16 (in ‘68) we had an (extremely) unfair joke: “Can you say pederast? Good I know you could!”.
[Mr Rogers was a wonderful, wonderful man.]
CTuttle @ 86
Peterr, the Wright Resignation letter is a damning expose. Thanks for posting.
kiddo says goodnight. And so do I.
lahoma
Peterr, fantastic post, by the way.
Obama is the choice.
Get Tough @ 88
Heh, I’ve gotta defend my Homey, when I can…!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 90
Nite, Ma’am! Give a kiss to OKK for me, willya? *g*
GordonM @ 87
No! Mr Rogers was a pederast?
Get Tough @ 88
And Huff is one of Slick Willie’s “lady friends.”
Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I’ve been in and out of the thread, trying to pack for a trip tomorrow while also putting a little one to bed.
Cassie!!! Happy, happy birthday to you tomorrow!! Eat some cake for me 2!!! Yummmm!!!
Happy Birthday, Snarkiest!
CTuttle @ 86
This strikes me as a bit of a risky move. If the resolution does not pass, will the Bushistas take that as authorization for war?
CTuttle @ 92
Obama’s your choice, huh? I knew there was something about you, CTuts!
Twain @ 67
Divine right of kings…close enough for gov’t work…
Peterr @ 96
Awwwwww..that is so sweet!
Get Tough @ 85
I’m for the Dem. that might send the most Thugs to prison. Edwards or Clinton..not Obama.
Just now Gates (on CSPAN re-airing of today’s Pentagon briefing) refused to answer whether he and other senior administration officials personallly consider waterboarding to be torture, avering “I’m not going to wander into that legal thicket.”
Reinforces that it’s not just Muckasey — none of these people can say Yes, because of the criminal liability consequences all the way up and down the chain of command, nor say No, because the people, (what’s left of) the press, and the Congress would laugh them right out of office.
Never seen any issue treated quite this Scroedinger’s-Cat, can’t-collapse-the-probablilty-waves kinda way. Closest thing in memory is the Chaney-4th-Branch question. Why the hell isn’t the press nailing all of them on these evasions?
Wait, don’t answer that last… too depressing.
Hmmm.
Fern @ 99
I certainly appreciate the sunshine this produces…!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
Oh no, Condi does not get off the hook for her war crimes.
Steve-AR @ 103
I’d rather see the constitution fixed.
Hmmm. @ 104
Follow-up Q: Are you refusing to answer the question about the legality of waterboarding because you might be criminally culpable?
Would luv to watch ‘em take the 5th.
Of course, the reporter would never be invited back.
Thanks Loo Hoo!
The worse thing about career officials leaving posts is that they are replaced by dummies. So, if a there is an exodus out of the State Department or Justice Department because the Bush Administration is comprised of fucking maniacs, then those posts will be filled by people who -don’t- think the Bush Administration is a bunch of fucking maniacs.
Of course, these posts become politicized.
Get Tough @ 100
Hah, I didn’t say that, he was born and raised in Hawaii, hence, the homey status… DK or Edwards will be my Primary choices, then who knows… *gah* Hill? 8~)
Fern @ 99
It’s a campaign move; he hasn’t thought through the possible implications…there is no downside to the letter and a resolution isn’t going to pass..too many Bush dog Senators..and I think you are right..Bush would consider a failed vote even more of an authorization and be supported by Lieberman.
Steve-AR @ 103
Beg to differ on two fronts: (1) HRC will not, I repeat, will NOT allow any power the Bushies have accumulated while at “war” go without a fight. An HRC admin. will not take the Bushies to task because they succeeded in giving the next President an enormous amount of unjust power, and she COVETS that. And (2), Edwards is out off his league. Like Plato warned, demogagues make terrible leaders because they simply cannot live up to all that they promise.
Hmmm. @ 104
It’s simpler than that. If any of them make a statement about whether waterboarding is torture, it has to be done in such a way that Congress and the Executive have opposite opinions of it’s truthfulness. Can’t be done. Won’t be done. This one’s a standoff.
tw3k @ 107
IMO can’t have one without the other..If the Constitution is to be restored so must the rule of law…Republicans at all levels have committed uncounted felonies etc. etc.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
But no matter what vile act her ‘husband’ asks her to perform….
She does it. She stands by her man! She stands by her man!
She staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands by her Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!
The Eva Braun of the 21st Century. Her family must be so proud!
As you can probably tell I have zero sympathy for this second rate schemer and all-around vile human being.
tw3k @ 107
Did ya’ll see Chris Dodd pipe up and say all the right things about decriminalizing mariju*na? That was awesome. Edwards said it would be a bad message for the children. Edwards lost some big points with me on that pander.
Steve-AR @ 42
I have another suggestion: let members of Congress who so vociferously support the war go.
O/T blogwhore:
I did a birthday post on being 16.
Whirledview has had some excellent posts on the goings-on at State; the posters there have long experience in the foreign service.
Get Tough @ 113
Whew, Edwards is a Demagogue? Bit of a stretch, I think…
GordonM @ 114
Can you amplify a little? Having a little trouble interpreting you there (sorry!).
Mauimom @ 118
Duncan Hunter should be renamed Donut Hunter.
Get Tough @ 113
So Al Gore?? He isn’t running..Leiberman’s mentee, Obama, who can work with Republicans like his good friend Tom Coburn..Dodd would be OK..Biden would do except for having to listen to him for eight years.
Get Tough @ 113
Hmmmm…. The Hill, quack lawyer for big corporations with legions of staff to front for her.
John Edwards, gun-slinging trial lawyer who kicked ass in many a confrontation with corporate America.
Yet he’s the one that’s ‘our of his league…’
I gotta say pal that that description fits you a lot better than him.
Fern @ 70
I agree that normally that would be true. But what would you feel you (or our diplomats) could accomplish before we leave?
LS @ 20
Some lackies will simply fall into extreme denial and OTOH Condi strikes me as the type A personality who would rather die then to admit she’s been played by a two-bit Texas punk.
Steve-AR @ 115
The Constitution isn’t broken. The Bushies claim to unfettered power at the moment is that the “war on terror” gives the Bushies every right to do what they are doing. Congress controls the purse strings, and is in Article I of the Constitution, for a reason: it is the most powerful branch of the US Government. Unfortunately, the Congress is run by a dweeb (Reid) and an obstinate, self-assured failure (Pelosi). Stop the funds, stop the war. Bushies lose all basis for their claims to unchecked power. Constitution “fixed.”
A.Citizen @ 125
I’m out of my league because I am blogging…?
A.Citizen @ 116
Condi has always been a looser..years ago when she was a “Soviet” expert, she made a statement that preemptive nuke strike might be a good idea under the right conditions.
Get Tough @ 113
I can’t be sure of what HRC wants. As Mark Penn admitted last weekend in the Book Salon, she’s going for the Republican Women’s vote. About my least favorite, but I’m not willing to see the Mark of Cain about her, either. I see her as politically calculating, but I really have no idea what her agenda is.
I see nothing about Edwards that qualifies for demogogue. I didn’t like his response about pot, but I didn’t like Dodd’s response about drivers licenses, either.
newspaperbrat @ 127
I agree. Well put. Holding on like a bulldog, thus far. Nice to see her squirming a bit at her last soiree, but I think you are correct.
Mauimom @ 118
Yeah! Let them stabilize the political front in Iraq… They’re eminently qualified err… deservingly, at least… ;-)
Steve-AR @ 42
Reminder. SoCal get-together on Saturday at noon. Hunter is not running again, but is sending Duncan Hunter, Jr. to the front as the republican nominee.
hackworth @ 132
Wonder what she will do after…? Stanford doesn’t seem very excited about taking her back. Guess she will always have her shoes.
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 71
Very good point…exactly the reason so many people stay where they are.
GordonM @ 131
Etymology:
Greek dēmagōgos, from dēmos people (perhaps akin to Greek daiesthai to divide) agōgos leading, from agein to lead — more at tide, agent
a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times
Steve-AR @ 115
Clinton will likely settle some old scores but I seriously doubt that she will concede executive power. I am uncertain about Edwards position.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
I think your letting her off much too easily. I suspect the case can be made that she made and controls him almost as much as darth has done.
Professor Foland @ 120
Fine posts, indeed. Thanks for the link!
Gordon said:
I see nothing about Edwards that qualifies for demogogue. I didn’t like his response about pot, but I didn’t like Dodd’s response about drivers licenses, either.
Steve-AR @ 124
And working with Republicans is a bad thing? Spoken like a true warrior of the 60’s.
LS @ 84
ayup.
hackworth @ 117
Yeah, Edwards kinda missed the point there.
Margot @ 136
Hence, Al Gore continuing his campaign against Global Warming…!
Hmmm. @ 122
Sure. If anyone says “Waterboarding is torture”, their nomination is withdrawn. If they don’t, they’re not confirmed (well, they’re voted against). Bush cannot allow it (it’s his biggest fear).
Bush’s downside is actually going to jail. The downside for forces of sanity is living with a True Believer as interim AG.
For the record, I think Mukassey should not be confirmed. But what we get will probably be worse.
CTuttle @ 145
me iz confuzed
GordonM @ 146
Gotcha. And agree totally. Thanks.
GordonM @ 146
My bet is we get Mukassey as an interim appt. Shrub can’t stand to not get what he thinks he’s entitled to.
Get Tough @ 142
True and the Republicans of the 60’s were part of a political party and not a criminal enterprise. The tear gas smell didn’t do much for me either.
GordonM @ 146
Agreed. Love Whithouse’s, Sheldon, that is, stance on this. He is very impressive. Waterboarding is torture, and years of international law holds that it is. I like this fight because it is easy to understand, and provides a great angle for the Dems to push back. Junior Bushie is getting nervous.
My bet is we get Mukassey as an interim appt. Shrub can’t stand to not get what he thinks he’s entitled to.
let him. that way, we can not be taunted with ‘but you approved him’ bull.
Get Tough @ 113
Show us your stuff.
Get Tough @ 137
Nice save…
This was what I thought…
Wiki…
demagogue – Originally meant “a popular leader”. It is from the Greek demagogos (leader of the people), from demos (people) agogos (leader). Now the word has strong connotations of a politician who panders to emotions and prejudice.
realworld @ 149:
No problem: No more recesses!
Get Tough @ 137
Oh, so first it was an insult, and now it’s a compliment?
Steve-AR @ 150
Touche.
hiya Suzanne!!!!!!!
CTuttle @ 154
Well, now we know Edwards is NOT a demagogue. Leading by appealing to popular emotion is the *only* thing that works these days…
happy bday cassie
Suzanne @ 160
Thanks!
snarKasSIXTEEN @ 161
How is Aunt Betsy taking it?
*g*
New Thread
Reinforcements have arrive..Loo Hoo is here.
Get Tough @ 128
I like your thinking and I’ve mostly been in agreement to your comments. So, say congress gets around to de-funding the war. What happens? How does the MCA and AUMT fit into picture? What is the legislation for the War on Terror?
Peterr @ 162
just fine. i don’t do the license thing till tomorrow.
Get Tough @ 129
Nope, ’cause what you are writing doesn’t seem to reflect what’s going on too well. John Edwards is very much NOT ‘out of his league….’. He’s scaring the crap out of the DLC and Corporatist America. Just like he always has.
‘My daddy worked in a mill…’ is not only the truth but a hell of a lot more acceptable to me than, ‘School Teachers need lobbyists too…’
GordonM @ 146
No one that Bush sends to be confirmed will be moral or acceptable.
Happy Birthday, Snarkassandra!!!
GordonM @ 156
I wish it were a compliment, but the fact remains that he is promising way too much for the “common people” that he just cannot deliver. I am a progressive, and as much as I would like to think an Edwards’ administration could win the day on everything he seems to promise, he will ultimately fail. He has really amped up the rhetoric, and rhetoric is just a fancy term for salespersonship. I envision an Edwards’ victory like Redford’s in The Candidate: after winning, looking at his campaign manager and saying, “now what?”
peanutbutter @ 159
Prejudiced against the establishment, not the fear mongering of the dirty masses, irregardless of skin color or economic status, as espoused by the Repugs!
I believe the Administration’s policies are making the world a more dangerous, not a safer, place.
This statement is soooo interesting.
What were the things that happened that caused this person to instinctually things were going badly off the rails. I suspect it was the breaking of existing understandings or working toward understandings that at a very basic level precluded her from exercising normal and reasonable discretion in the typically undirected execution of her duties.
The fuckers came in and broke everything.
A.Citizen @ 167
Yet he is behind in all polls, money and is an ex-one term senator with nothing to lose. He is in desparate mode, and has been for sometime now. His promises are nothing short of the New Deal, and Roosevelt accomplished that with hard-handed politics, a Depression, an attack on our Country, and 4 terms. Edwards (hopefully) will have none of that to work with. He is promising too much, and cannot deliver. He is out of his league.
Get Tough @ 170
How the eff do you know what can be delivered? No one thought an effete, polio stricken rich guy would get us both through WWII and the Great Depression. I am not betting that Edwards is the next FDR, I’m just betting he’s the best chance we’ve got.
tw3k @ 165
If you are still around and not onto the next thread, thanks. I truly enjoy my time at the Lake. By the way, and this may change your opinion, but what is MCA and AUMT?
Get Tough @ 173
Kerry was behind by 20 point at this time in 03.
We have a recession. Whether or not it grows into a depression is yet to be seen, but we’re in worse shape (economically) than we’ve been in the last 50 years. We know more about how to manage the economy, but that knowledge has been exploited, not used sensibly.
If Bush/Cheney attack Iran, we will be way in at least as bad shape as we were back then.
GordonM @ 174
He has based his entire campaign at changing what the Bushies have done for eight years. What people don’t grasp is that the conservative revolution started in the late 60s and carried onto 2000. Edwards does not have the gravitas or the political acumen to bring even a Used Deal, let alone a New Deal.
Get Tough @ 175
The MCA and AUMT.
The former doesn’t pertain but the latter, as I understand it, has already expired.
I guess I’m not understanding the legal basis for the War on Terror, the war in Afghanistan and war in Iraq.
tw3k @ 178
Agreed 100%. I have gotten on my soap box sevaral times to declare that we are not in a war at all. Mission Accomplished, War Over, or so I thought. The Iraq situation is not a war, and I am tired of hearing that it is. I just read the book, “Life in the Emerald City”. Proof positive that we are occupiers right now.
Get Tough @ 177
Some people grasp that extremely well. This “conservative revolution” was a bunch of paranoids in polyester suits meeting at Holiday Inns in rural areas in the 60s, calling themselves the “John Birch Society”. They are done. Cooked. Finished.
Again, no one thought FDR had gravitas or political acumen. And maybe you’re right. Maybe Edwards doesn’t. But if he doesn’t, who does? Or are you buying a backhoe to build yourself a bigger whine pit?
When all is said and done, there is really only link between the American people and those in Washington and that is the House and the Senate. These are the men and women that represent us, that came from our own communities and are supposed to stand up for us in our place. These people have let us down, whether due to self interest, greed, cowardice, or other self serving reasons. Are they traitors? Many of them certainly are. And to the American people that sit home in ignorance or apathy, shame on them too. This country is so damaged now, what will it take to get Americans to take to the streets?
Get Tough @ 179
Ah, yes, looks like a good book but, sadly, the internet is my book budget.
Back to the Unitary Executive. The entire theory rests on congress declaring war and giving the president commander in chief powers. Even with the AUMT war was never declared but there remains this pretense that the War on Terror gives Bush commander in chief powers. I dunno, I need to study the thing more.
xargaw @ 181
Another republican president?
hey, just catching up for the day ….. how did Jane do?
(((((((jane))))))))
Sorry to say, but Colin Powell and Condi Rice are the picture-perfect “House Negroes” of the Bush Administration. Powell said, “Yes, Massuh” with his U.N. speech calling for War on Iraq and Condi spouted “the mushroom clouds are coming” for her leader, George W., the plantation owner. You can talk about progress and affirmative action all you want, but when you get two reactionary examples like this (Clarence “Long Dong Silver” Justice Thomas being another), you have to wonder where these “house negroes” think they are and what they are doing for their white “sponsors”. Do they really think they are thinking independently of their Republican “masters” or have they internalized these reactionary messages to such an extent that they think they are speaking for themselves?
In any case, they are massively deluded and deserve our pity, not our approbation. They should all be called for their retrogade actions, not because they are African-Americans, but because they are deluded idiots and dangerous fools. White or black, if you support an illegal and immoral and preemptive War on Iraq, you are, ipso facto, a blood-thirsty, war-mongering
asshole.
I am color-blind when I say that anyone who supports George W. Bush’s misguided War on Iraq is murderously stupid.
Those who designate the names for the nomenklatura are delighted at this. It allows them to replace the wheat with the chafe, though they interpret it the other way round. These developments are identical with what’s happened throughout the federal bureaucracy, from the DOJ to the GSA to the CPSC. Corrupt and drive out the good; replace with their own, then become temporary converts to a love of federal bureaucratic employment protections.
In the Justice Dept, this results in gelding a dept essential to the functioning of the republic, as well as the primary hound dog that would otherwise follow them after they leave office.
We will need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for many things. One of them will be to help build the federal bureaucracy. It really is the only thing that makes things work, which is what drives Cheney and Rove crazy.
radlib1 @ 185
That is a unfortunate simile that speaks more about you than your subjects of derision.
tw3k–
Do you really contend that Condi Rice and Colin Powell are not “murderously stupid”?
They both did, after all, support a War on Iraq based on lies.
Do you really support the War on Iraq? Do you disagree or are you, too, murderously stupid?
***Putting on Moderator Hat***
radlib1, we do not call other comments stupid or other names here at the lake. any further comments by you like that will be pulled. along with racist and or sexist comments.
I’m sorry to be impolite, but I do believe that the War on Iraq is “murderously stupid” and I do believe that both Colin Powell and Condi Rice should be called to account for their support of that War. As I also said, many others, black and white, Republican and supine Democrat, joined in George W. Bush’s “crusade.” Nobody should be given a free pass for their support of this “monstrously stupid” war, commenters on firedoglake included.
Thank you.
radlib1 @ 190
I did not direct my comment towards those statements. I said, we do not call other comments names and issued a warning that doing so will get your comment pulled, just as making racist and/or sexist comments will. Just want to make sure that you are clear on that.
radlib1 @ 190
I agree. It was your decidedly racist language that I took objection to.
t23k, this is between radlib1 and me as moderator. please don’t pile on.
rok
Steve-AR @ 42
Is he suggesting that the Bush Administration order wounded Veterans into Iraq to serve at the embassy there?
Somehow I don’t think that this would be appreciated by the wounded Veterans, either? Is he suggesting that they are subject to call-up yet one more time, even while undergoing rehabilitation?
The guys insane! If he really believes this have him draw up a Bill and watch the fallout!
And does he really think that m without diplomatic experience could run a diplomatic commercial office, administer Agricultural Assistance programs, evaluate Visa applications by Iraqi businessmen and students?
And if is talking about OTHER Embassies…how many ofb these wounded Vets speak Indonesian, Hindi, Mandarin, or are versed in the cultures of the places they would be stationed?
Again, Hunter is batsh*t crazy!
CTuttle @ 86
Ummm! I don’t know. This could really backfire. What if the resolution fails?
Because it only would take a handful of Democrats to vote “Nay” and it would then give Bush yet one more “green light”…the assumption that if it doesn’t pass…then the contrary must be true.
And Bush would not have to then get a resolution at all. He could point at this failing and say “The majority of the Senate voted refused to support a resolution that I don’t have the authority…thus the agree I DO have the authority.”
I hope that Obama realizes this and didn’t simply put the resolution up for political gamesmanship. Certainly Clinton and all the other candidates will support it…but it may not pass despite this.
Steve-AR @ 42
Now this is about the cruelest thing I think I’ve heard in a while, whether he “meant” it or not. Someone in Congress, please channel Joseph Welch?
Re Cassie at 28. Since we only know the facts in spots (whoever said GWB has the short answer), I was trying to think of a story that captured it. Medea is a pretty good parallel, without the children. Maybe Condi’s an original, though.
Excusez moi:
snarKasSIXTEEN!!
realworld @ 139
Amen!
Here’s a thought: what if, once our diplomats are successfully forced to take residence in the Iraqi US Embassy, they- by sheer coincidence of course, get bombed by the evil doers in Iran, galvanizing support for Cheney’s Iran war wet dream? And if, by chance, this purely coincidental attack and murder of our innocent diplomats happened, say around our Christmas holiday, would the fundies rally around support for nuclear retaliation?
Just a thought. Cuz nobody believes (especially the diplomats)these guys are being sent for “diplomacy”.
cinnamonape @ 195
Well, if we can’t blow up our diplomats and blame it on Iran cause they all quit before being forced to go, the plan can still work by blowing up wounded veterans! Think about it…wounded GI’s being bombed by Iranian evil doers- Sweet jesus- EVERYONE would be screaming for Cheney to attack Iran, then!
They are going to Iran and need a reason, fast. Duncan may not be insane, afterall.
A.Citizen @ 125
Guess I have a winner here. Still not sure about some stuff, but I think I have enough evidence now to go NH for Edwards.
Is it just me, or does this seem like another political purge similar to the DoJ?
Take all the career Democrats (or non-Bushies)
and threaten to send them to IRAQ…
knowing full well that they’ll quit first.
Does anyone have the stats on this?
percentage of non-Republicans in this group?
be