AG nominee Michael Mukasey may have found the minimum statement he must make to hold Republican Senators on his upcoming confirmation vote, just as today’s New York Times lead article found a headline to obscure why Mukasey’s statement should automatically disqualify him.
All Mukasey needed to say on the question of whether waterboarding is torture is that he personally finds it “repugnant,” while dodging the legal question about its illegality until he’s safely through a confirmation vote he can consider the matter in the context and facts of an actual case. In essence, he’s saying, “trust me,” the unofficial slogan of the least trustworthy administration in memory, and Republicans are busy trying to sell it to the country.
The dodge was apparently enough for Senators Graham, McCain and Warner, who announced they were now prepared to vote for Mukasey’s confirmation, while noting they hoped the nominee would render an official opinion on the matter as soon as he was sworn in. They’re not asking Mukasey to promise to do so, mind you; just think about it. Please. They probably don’t need to ask; if confirmed, Mukasey will likely be forced to opine about what constitutes torture and a lot of other things he claims to find personally offensive.
Lindsey Graham explained why he “felt more comfortable” about Mukasey on PBS’ NewsHour by first noting that in nominating Mukasey, George Bush had “tried to bring us together” by choosing a “consensus candidate.” The man actually said that with a straight face. Asked whether he agreed, Senator Whitehouse suggested Mukasey’s legal views were on the “far edge of responsible legal opinion,” but those views had “created enormous mischief for our country.” But at least Mukasey seemed “a more reasoned man” than Alberto Gonzales.
Lindsey then tried to obscure why ducking the torture question was critical. Taking an argument from Mukasey’s letter and endorsed by Arlen Specter, Graham noted that Mukasey is “in a bind,” because if he expressed a legal opinion now, it might have legal consequences for people who have used or ordered waterboarding in the past. Well, yes, that’s true, but Specter/Graham didn’t explain how that would improve once Mukasey was sworn in and his “views” become official Justice Department positions rather than his personal opinions.
The whole point of answering the waterboarding question, after all, is to establish legal consequences for those who engage in illegal activities. An answer would let US personnel know, in no uncertain terms, that there is indeed legal liability for anyone who engages in or orders any form of torture and that whatever cover they thought they had before is gone. Given their argument, would Specter/Graham prefer that no opinion ever be issued?
The Times headline tells us the “Nominee’s Stand May Avoid Tangle of Torture Cases,” but further down we finally read that the “tangle” is the possible indictment of the President of the United States for war crimes:
Scott L. Silliman, an expert on national security law at Duke University School of Law, said any statement by Mr. Mukasey that waterboarding was illegal torture “would open up Pandora’s box,” even in the United States. Such a statement from an attorney general would override existing Justice Department legal opinions and create intense pressure from human rights groups to open a criminal investigation of interrogation practices, Mr. Silliman said.
“You would ask not just who carried it out, but who specifically approved it,” said Mr. Silliman, director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke. “Theoretically, it could go all the way up to the president of the United States; that’s why he’ll never say it’s torture,” Mr. Silliman said of Mr. Mukasey.
So far, the key Democrats are not buying Mukasey’s dodge. Senator Whitehouse, appearing on NewsHour with Graham, argued we shouldn’t accept an AG who is ambiguous on the torture issue. In a Senate speech yesterday, Whitehouse declared that waterboarding is “unambiguously wrong,” arguing that US personnel needed a bright line to guide their conduct. His announcement against Mukasey was followed by Senator Durbin’s.
The Mukasey vote has thus become a proxy for impeachment, and we’re about to find out how far the US Senate is from upholding the Constitution. But as Kagro X keeps pointing out, we’ve set the ethical and legal bars so low for this Administration, its no longer worth pretending that having an Attorney General that Bush would nominate makes a difference.
Senator Leahy has scheduled a vote in the SJC for next Tuesday.
If you’re keeping score, the neocons now concede that waterboarding may “feel like torture,” but it doesn’t cause any lasting effect (unless, as Olbermann pointed out on Countdown, you actually cause the victim’s death). For more views from the sane part of the world see here and the many links at the end.
Photo: Graham with Bush; Willis Glassgow/AP
Related posts:
- Breaking: Lieberman-Graham Dropped From Supplemental
- Has Lindsey Graham Ever Stepped Outside the Bubble?
- Parody? No, It’s Michael Mukasey
- Lieberman-Graham Threaten to Shut Down Senate, Add Detainee Photo Suppresion Amendment to FDA Tobacco Regulation Bill
- Nine Democrats “Just Say No” to Graham-Lieberman





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yo
oy
An AG who’s covering up for the executive branch. Go figure. Proxy impeachment is correct.
Good morning Scarecrow
What’s the big deal about waterboarding? I was waterboarded with no lasting effects.
My radio ate the rabbit again and now my head is twitching violently.
Morning Scarecrow.
-MS
Caw, caw! Good morning Scarecrow.
count as an almost zed?
I’ve got $50 that says some “Democrat” will fold up like a lawn chair and this creature will be confirmed. Disgraceful…. Now back to work.
EPU’ed on Phelps or vs Phelps, hope Selise is still with us.
Since I contributed to raining on the parade of rejoicing about the reining (as in whoa, pulling on the reins) in of the Phelps, let me give us a reason to consider another possible good outcome.
Maryland. Home to the soldier, home to the Frosts.
I ask of Selise or any of our first amendment mavens willing to opine:
If the pain and suffering to the mourning family of a dead soldier at his funeral had sufficient merit, should not impugning a living child in his home do as well?
The Raven standing guard solution raises question 2.
How do they a. find these funerals. and b. get the resources and organization to go from Topeka to Georgia and Maryland etc. in time to protest? One would need to know in order to form these guards.
Snarky question and final one: is there another flank to attach the Phelps on that leaves the first amendment out of it.
They are accompanied by their children. The ones who look young in pix are surely being home schooled. Can state action being taken on the grounds that children’s inadequate homeschooling…they seem to be protesting rather than learning…perhaps in the words of the yadeyadayada immortal Bard, they protest too much/
You can see that hope can spring eternal in a BlueState that has seen one curse reversed.
McCain sells out on torture again. No wonder no one believes anything he says anymore.
O/T but I was curious in the last thread. Does anyone know what’s going on with the DOJ and the Abramoff investigations? I know Waxman sent a letter to Bush yesterday asking for more docs. But what about the investigations into Congress? How long does it take to make a case? It’s been three years.
g’morning firedogs
thanx for the early post scarecrow
let me make a point, a very frightening point
yesterday, bush’s aids were determined to go on record as saying that no legal document matters when the president says you can do it
time and again, he repeated, the president can overide any law, he was insistant
we know as a fact the president “designates” his authority to whoever he feels like it, he disignated his “authority to declassify on the fly”, he deisgnated abilities to hundreds powers that once belonged to a number you count on one or two hands
what does this add up to?
do the republicans actually want this power to go to a democrat?
do the republicans actually want this power to go to the person most likely to win the democratic nomination and therefore the presidency, one hillary clinton?
the answer is unequivicalby NO
they would never allow it, the administration would never allow it, cheney would not, bush would not, the fascists pulling the strings would not
I am sorry, they have no intention of leaving office…none
let me make a point, not a stretch in the least
since the president can order any law broken by anyone he wants, if this actually accepted by congress, he can order no elections
he can also order no impeachment
he can order anything he wants
they have no intention of leaving office, none
Good morning. Have to go to work soon, but Jerelyn has lots more stuff about Mukasey and why he’s a bad choice.
There’s lots more to him than torture abetting.
Good Morning Scarecrow!
Ian Welsh has a brief post up about waterboarding with a link to a video.
Proxie for impeachment? That sounds like code, meaning, the dems are gonna fold like a house of cards on this issue as well…
“But at least Mukasey seemed “a more reasoned man” than Alberto Gonzales.”
And the point is?
-MS
watch this clip which is hosted over at c and l
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..103007.wmv
pelosi gets a little back on track, she really smacks the president down after the president’s press conferance
she starts out with;
“oh, poor president, poor poor president bush, he has to work with congress”
that’s paraphrased but it was nice to see from her.
Before going to Vietnam, my husband (an officer) was subjected to torture techniques in order to be familiar with them, in case he was captured and a prisoner of war. One of those techniques was waterboarding. The Navy, at that time, apparently included waterboarding as a torture technique. My husband certainly felt tortured.
How do you determine a lasting effect of anything?
Don’t look to Mornin’ caffeine to tell you what’s going on…it’s allabout beating up on Hillary.
Long live the Beeb.
Did you know there’s a war going on in Iraq? The value of the dollar is dropping like a stone?
Maybe Colonel Graham oughta have a little heart to heart with the Marine Colonel–and his own mortal soul–rather than the cravens in the WH.
NZ Expat, now in KS @ 18
Musta been a pilot.
Good morning everyone.
NZ Expat, now in KS @ 18
here’s the solution;
whatever politician doesn’t think waterboarding is torture has to be questioned again on their opinion while undergoaing waterboarding
if the waterboarders can get them to say it’s torture they have to change their mind on whether or not it is
this is not cruel since these people are saying it’s not torture…let them have some of that not torture stuff
and the point really is, under this practice a captive will say anything to stop it
that’s what makes it torture, the fact that you will say whatever it takes to have them stop
Resistance and escape
The “Resistance and Escape” component of SERE focuses on resistance and survival in captivity based on experiences of formerly captured Americans at the hands of the enemy. The majority of this portion of the course is classified Secret by the United States government. However several official sites exist to give a general overview of the curricula. The goal of this portion is training the student to survive captivity. The training has been widely reported to provide a realistic simulation of harsh and abusive coercive techniques and to teach the students how to resist them. The SERE students are not taught how to apply coercive techniques or interrogate enemy prisoners of war and, as most are aircrews, would not normally be in duties even involving enemy POW’s.
off to work, will try to catch up later
It’s interesting how quickly/easily McCain folded; one wonders how he must rationalize his vote. He must be reading Mukasey’s statement as saying, “look, I’m not crazy; I know this is torture, and we all know what this could mean about Bush. But no one wants to go through an impeachment, so you know I can’t say what everyone knows. So do you want me as AG or not?”
Given their argument, would Specter/Graham prefer that no opinion ever be issued?
Yes.
This has been another edition…..
jayackroyd @ 26
Yep, and I think it was Judy Woodruff doing the interview of Graham and Whitehouse — whoever it was, there was no follow up question.
Scarecrow @ 25
bush can’t be impeached, he’ll just write an executive order suspending impeachment
his aids testified under oath bush can overide any law he wants to overide
Nope, he wanted to be a pilot but Rickover made him go into the nuclear subs. After three years of that, he thought it was being run poorly. He said something. He was sent to Vietnam for his remaining three years. His last year was on the Mekong with 22 of those little boats like in Apocalypse now, I think. Forgive me. The Naval Academy grad came home from Vietnam and married a pacifist Mennonite (me) who is woefully ignorant about the details of these things.
I see the typo fairy is at work today. Thank you, and good morning.
NZ Expat, now in KS @ 29
PBR’s or Swiftboats. I was in the Delta as well, 68-69.
Scarecrow:
I’ve called Senator Leahy’s office (he’s my Senator) and asked that he get commitments to vote no from all Democratic senators on the SJC. If he can’t get these commitments, then the SJC vote should be postponed, with the easy excuse that Mukasee’s 187 page reply provoked more questions that need answering. If Mukasey passes through SJC, he will certainly be confirmed with at least 51 votes, as there’ll be one Democrat from the committee and Lieberman. He must not get out of committee.
Scarecrow @ 25
Do take a look at Jerelyn’s laundry list. Mukesey and his son are up to their eyebrows in “stuff.”
ApacheTrout @ 32
Thanks for that update. Or course, the Dems could block the nomination with 41 votes. ‘Tis a time for leadership.
Poor babies. Let me get this straight. Your lives are more valuable than the lives of American soldiers serving in Iraq? Sorry. Doesn’t wash.
Several hundred U.S. diplomats vented anger and frustration Wednesday about the State Department’s decision to force foreign service officers to take jobs in Iraq, with some likening it to a “potential death sentence.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Have you heard the recording? It’s raining rockets in the Green Zone!
Somehow, PBR’s makes a better sound than Swiftboats….not that I remember well. I’ll ask him when I can. He just left to go back to work in NZ for a spell.
raven @ 23
When this comes up, I like to remind people that purpose of the coercive techniques in settings like North Korea was not to obtain information. It was to compel people to sign false confessions.
This is not about extracting information. It never has been. We need to remember that.
On Scarecrow’s McCain comment, it really is baffling, as is Specter, as is, FTM, Snowe. The complete abandonment of any principles that I thought were clearly inviolate for a bipartisan majority of Senators is still something I find shocking. When the NY Roots project visited Schumer’s and Clinton’s office, I felt sorta like some kind of naive bumpkin when I said “We’re talking about 5th Grade civics here.” while the staffer just nodded.
In the introduction to Glenn Greenwald’s first book, he says that he had, in the past, pretty much ignored politics. When he had paid attention, it was rather sordid and self-serving, but that he thought the Constitution’s design prevented anything really egregious from happening.
I really think the Founding Fathers would be shocked to see the Senate so freely give up its power. They wouldn’t be shocked, imo, at the attempt of the executive to gain primary power; the constitution is clearly designed expressly to keep that from happening.
All I can think is that status and money have trumped principle and patriotism. Very sad, really. Or as Jon Stewart put it, in reference to Obama (pre-presidential bid) “What happens when you get elected to the Senate? Do they issue you a stupid pill with the oath of office?”
Anyone find it ironic that this discussion about waterboarding is going on while the SCOTUS seems poised on declaring execution by lethal injection , which amounts to smothering a conscious person, unconstitutional? The whole thing is such a farce. When will these criminals ever be prosecuted.
My sympathies are clear. They are with the grunts on the ground.
Mukasey is a political hack. And a punk.
RevDeb @ 33
Why is it always the lawyers? Believe me, there are no courses on corruption in law school. It happens after law school.
A fair number of the ‘diplomats’ are third base sons and daughters on the track to becoming ‘foreign service operators’ whos main job is to attend cocktail parties and raise funds for mommy’s and daddy’s friends running for office. They certainly do not want to do anything that might put them in any danger, other than possibly choking on a cocktail weenie.
Scarecrow @ 25
An excellent point Scarecrow, but of all members of Congress I hold McCain most responsible for permitting the torture presidency to continue. He, Lindsey Graham, and John Warner all opposed the MCA until they got hauled in to the WH and read the riot act. They meekly went back to Congress, said “just kidding” and voted to suspend habeus corpus with a wink and a nod to torture.
No matter how he rationalizes it, McCain has signed off on the Vietnamese treatment of prisoners. We have met the enemy and he is us.
So let me see if I understand the Republican argument here:
So they’re saying that he can’t make a statement on torturing prisoners because then as the nation’s top law-enforcement officer he might have to actually enforce the law?
Yeah that would be a shame…
I have to go teach all day. The liveliness of the students keeps me moving, though college frosh probably will be a bit slow today, the day after Halloween.
But thanks to all for bearing witness. It is an important vocation.
All I can think is that status and money have trumped principle and patriotism. Very sad, really. Or as Jon Stewart put it, in reference to Obama (pre-presidential bid) “What happens when you get elected to the Senate? Do they issue you a stupid pill with the oath of office?”
I think its a book on etiquette. “My distingushed colleague and friend from Mississippi [who just sold out the American people and doomed thousands to their deaths] makes an interesting point . . .”
You can see why people who often speak out, like Feingold, are treated like pariahs.
NZ Expat, now in KS @ 46
Watch yer topknot!
It all goes back to Ford’s pardon of Nixon….I believe had he not done so we would not have the former members of Nixon’s team back in power. These guys were criminals then and they are criminals now. But hey, it’s important to think about a president as one with whom one would like to have a beer. Sheesh.
How can we haul David Addington before the Senate Judiciary Committee to testify on the
rule of law?
perris @ 22
It really is quite perfect. If it is NOT torture, then doing it to them will not make them say it is….
nomolos @ 43
Wow, what a harsh characterization. I couldn’t disagree more.
There may be some like you describe, but most of them serve under difficult circumstances with precious little administrative support.
Bay State Librul @ 50
Not sure that’s his area of expertise.
Principles? What’s that?
Scarecrow @ 34
just like with fisa?
best case:
1) block in committee
if that doesn’t work, then:
2) find a senator willing to put a “hold” on the vote, pressure reid to respect the hold
if that doesn’t work, then:
3) find 41 senators willing to vote “no”
if that doesn’t work, then give much grief to those responsible.
Scarecrow @ 53
He understands the rule of law well enough to spend his career dismantling it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
We got no class
and we got no priciples!
good morning scarecrow and all.
Since the armed forces and police act to carry out the constitutional protection we need and in the day of cell phone camaras / small digital camaras why in fact don’t the citizens have the right to view actual interrogations. That way ,we as citizens can correct any abusive methods as they are applied. This state secret shit seems to me as a cover for inhumane treatment of human beings.Guess that’s why Germans never got to see the inter workings of the camps the German patroits carried out on the German citizens behalf.
You know on the day AFTER Halloween, you’d think you could take your mind off of ghouls and goblins and mythical creatures of evil.
Instead we’re faced with the realization that an army of orcs from Morder have taken the reigns of our government. And our supposed allies have just handed them over without a fight.
Well to take this Lord of the Rings metaphor even further I’d have to note that we DO have a presidential candidate who has a remarkable physical resemblance to Frodo Baggins.
Maybe Kucinich can destroy the ring and end this age of darkness.
(sorry, too much Halloween fertilizing my brain last night.)
‘morning all… coffee is ready.
Graham, Warner and McCain… oy! this country is in some terrible trouble.
I fail to see why the folks here want officials of our Government, the folks trying to win a war against a desperate enemy, want our OWN people punished. Even assuming, arguendo, that torture has been committed (which I do not–waterboarding does not KILL like decapitation), why you would punish our folks for trying to WIN is beyond me.
Apologies if this is posted already, but an excellent article by a former SERE instructor on the topic at hand
http://smallwarsjournal.com/bl…..ure-perio/
jayackroyd @ 38
and yet we saw the roman senate go exactly the same way: maintain status based on the illusion of power, even as a republic became a hollowed-out potemkin village in the service of an emperor.
egregious @ 52
I fear we live in different worlds. I am sure there must be some that join the state department with romantic notions of changing the world or doing some good but I have yet to meet any of those…. including my realtives
As to the diplomats problems with serving in Iraq. If you don’t like your job, get another one.
raven @ 31
All three of my friends – one Navy, two USMC – who served on PBRs or the bigger Swifts – have suffered incredibly in the intervening years. PTSD ands Agent Orange exposure got all three of them. Which reminds me – I need to go visit one and see how he’s doing. He never calls.
SufiLizard @ 59
and kucinich was one of only 6 representatives to vote against the odius h.r.1955 last week. good on him
Ed*ard Teller @ 65
You know about the Zumwalt’s I assume? He was CNO and ordered the defoliation of the canal’s in the delta because charlie was kickin our ass in ambushes from the banks. His son was a PBR commander in the delta who later died from AO related cancer.
Perhaps all those who support what we are “doing” in Iraq should be sent to the Green Zone. And that includes any Texas hobby-horse riding cowboys. And any others serving in the current administration.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 68
Green Zone my ass, they need to be in the Disneyland that Anbar has become.
I had to shut off the fucking TV, listening to
Matthews and others ripping Hillary.
My selection is Dodd, but after watching Hillary get reamed last night, I feel sorry
for her, and may flip-flop.
Hardnuts was disgusting!
Is Mukasey still a sitting judge?
If so, isn’t there a way to contact him directly?
At minimum, he’s either hopelessly disengaged from the world and ignorant of what’s going on all around him, or he’s lying, flat out.
And a conversation with him on those points would be invaluable in forcing him to confront his overt dishonesty with the American people.
It is, of course, a stain on his honor, as well as the country’s, and a disgrace to him personally.
raven @ 68
Yeah. I remember, back when the son was ill, hearing both of them talking about it on NPR. Back in the days, long ago, when NPR was still a decent network. IIRC, one of the younger Zumwalt’s kids had severe birth defects which have been attributed to the dad’s exposure to agent orange.
LibertyLee @ 61
Well, it’s a really hard point to grasp, LL, but some of us actually believe that “winning” means preserving our Constitution, checks and balances, accountability, the Bill of Rights, the rule of law, etc. Winning is not measured in how many of “them” we kill, but in how well we preserve the principles that are worth dying for. So when an Administration compromises every one of those principles, then they become more of a threat to those things we fight for. And if we don’t hold them accountable, we’ve lost.
You either see it or you don’t.
Ed*ard Teller @ 72
Roger that.
I want all politicians who voted with Bush to attack Iraq to gain a hands on experience event. Regardless of age, gender, political affiliation, or anything else. Send them all to the desert sands of Iraq. Now.
Well, IANAL, but yes. That’s kind of the point to having an Attorney General — to enforce the legal consequences upon those who break the law.
As a lawyer, congressman, and Reserve JAG, if Lindsay has a problem with that, I’d say he’s in the wrong profession or three.
Scarecrow @ 73
selise @ 67
I saw that..WTF!! Six?
Scarecrow @ 74
You can say you disagree with a policy without trying to JAIL those you disagree with. I don’t like the kind of “accountability” that leads to jailing political prisoners. It doesn’t make for democratic discoursse. I think we could have a debate if I didn’t read so much about “jail”, “War Crimes tribunals”–that puts the advocates in the same chair as the enemy.
OT – (maybe especially for ‘pups in socal). couple of potentially interesting hearings today on global climate change:
10 am – House Energy Independence and Global Warming
Hearing on wildfires and the climate crisis.
11:30 am – House Budget
Counting the Change: Accounting for the Fiscal Impacts of Controlling Carbon Emissions
LibertyLee @ 61
So I take it you don’t agree with the War crimes Tribunals from WWII who punished Japanese and German military for war crimes after they had used waterboarding on Allied troops?
raven @ 78
There’s no question we could have won Vietnam. Had we mined the harbor at Haiphong and sealed the borders we could have won. I know. My relatives were there.
Steve-AR @ 78
there is so much fuckery going on in the house this year. almost all of it under the radar, just based on what i’ve seen… and i expect i’m missing most of it.
dakine01 @ 82
You’re right…I do NOT support those trials. Sen. Robert Taft (R-OH) predicted these kinds of victors tribunals would lead EXACTLY to what has happened to today. Victors’ justice. Bah humbug….
Bridge Troll
LibertyLee @ 80
The Uniform Code of Military Justice is not designed to help the “enemy,” even though it is necessary to deal with military persons who commit crimes. Laws against war crimes are universally recognized as valid, even for those engaged in war. Your statement implies that when in war, nothing one does, to anyone (including innocent civilians) should comply with the law against torturing people. It is an astonishingly lawless view, leaving one to ask, why would anyone want “your” side to win, if that’s the way they behave?
Just once, I’d like to see a reporter spin this around on Bush, when he sez torture is ok.
“Sir so if al Qaeda waterboarded captured American soldiers, that’d be ok?”
And for insight into how safe Bush appointees feel Baghdad is:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..embassy_10
Scarecrow @ 73
and torture — or nontorture like waterboarding that certainly quacks like a duck — is not about extracting usable information.
it’s about — as someone noted above — getting the victim to confess to any or everything you seek.
it has nothing to do with “winning.” and everything to do with covering your as.
another corporate philosophy installed by the m.b.a. presidency.
LibertyLee @ 61
LibertyLee, go buy yourself a dictionary. Decapitation is murder. Torture inflicts suffering on the living.
From SWJ:
(snip)
(snip)
SWJ
One of the best pieces that I have read on the subject
LibertyLee @ 80
LibertyLee – holding government officials accountable for breaking the law does not make them political prisoners. It makes them criminals.
Scarecrow @ 87
Because enemies from the Carthaginians to the Mongols to the Huns understand that when you are under attack ANYTHING is fair game. If you are threatened with extinction as Osama has threatened us with, then anything is fair game until he and his followers are utterly defeated. There are no civilians or innocents in those wars. He says so himself. Why should we play differently?
phred @ 90
Decapitation is the threat that this will be done to your comarades and family to extract information; waterboarding is a non-lethal form of doing the same thing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 65
OK Kiddo, I respect your opinions, I really do, but where is all this hostility coming from?
Haven’t we all complained about the complacency of those in the DoJ for not standing up for the rule of law? Don’t we all wish the lawyers there had resigned en masse rather than condone Bush’s policies?
Haven’t we all wished for people to refuse to follow their leaders when those leaders are heading over a cliff? If we don’t follow, then the leadership have nothing to lead and they will then have to change course.
So here we have people standing up to the incompetent leadership in the State Department and your giving them crap for it? You would rather have them follow Condi over a cliff?
I don’t get it, I really don’t.
Steve-AR — Agree. The SWJ article is the last link in the post.
Sen. Whitehouse has my vote for Rookie of the Year.
ApacheTrout @ 92
No. I don’t believe in the kind of accountability where one side can jail the other. The Left has played that game with Watergate, Iran-Contra, and now the “to the death” struggle with Islamo-Fascism. Is it any wonder that I read on these pages every day the fears you all have that the Administration is “spying” upon you? Since many intend worse upon us, it is a form of reverse projection. Sometimes just sitting here and lurking I beleive that your side wants to kill all conservatives as if WE were the enemy. It is extremely frustrating.
I am confused.
We cannot declare that torture is torture because then people who ordered and committed torture would be liable?
Why, isn’t that the point.
What rabbit hole have we fallen down where every mistake, no matter how grevious cannot have consequences, because… there would be consequences.
raven @ 75
OT..with respect to AO, there was (still is?) a long term follow up of the Air Force personnel who were part of “Ranch Hand”. As part of the initiation into Ranch Hand, they drank the stuff; some drank gallons.
LibertyLee @ 94
No, decapitation is a verb meaning to cut off the head of a person or animal. Really, look it up.
LibertyLee @ 61
It isn’t winning when you become the enemy.
We rightly revile AQ because they torture people. When we torture them, is it winning?
We revile AQ because they kill innocent people. Is it winning when we do the same?
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-calculus/
If we become our enemy, we have sold our constitutional birthright.
LibertyLee @ 90
you have a very low threshold when you play to the level of the enemy. that’s what principles are for.unless they’re disposable.
and i’m sure you don’t think bin laden or any terrorist organization or all terrorist organizations combined have any chance at all to threaten us with extinction. talk about a low threshold.
and please remind me again what torture — i’m sorry nontorture, since it doesn’t kill anyone — like waterboarding does in the fight to avoid extinction? what usable, fresh information are you gleaning from folks who have been locked up for months, now several years?
i appreciate the bind you’re in. you can’t concede anything, because then you’d have to look at the horror the administration has led us to become. but your arguments sound tinny to this ear.
LibertyLee asks:
Why should we play differently?
That’s a very good question. Perhaps a whole thread’s worth?
I believe we play differently because we strive to be more civilized, peaceful and perhaps a little more enlightened.
Anybody else?
Th @ 96
Yes, and Senator Feingold for MVS (Most Valuable Senator) in a supporting role.
Although I think Dustin Pedroia may have the
Rookie trophy locked.
I presume that all of the people talking about torture have no personnel experience with the subject. I would suggest reading Scarescrow’s last link to get an opinion of a person who does know what he is talking about.
To Liberty Lee I’m sure you can quote the day and time the congress declaired war on Iraq or if not what law gives us liberty other than the constitution.Because this is in fact an illegal, immoral and certainly unconstitutional military incursion into a country who did not attact us .
demi @ 103
Yes..read this..SWJ
drng@103 Read Osama’s last monologue. He declares us all guilty. I believe him. He has shown the ability and guile to organizational skill to conduct sophisticated terrorist operations which, if allowed to succeed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Europe or the America (including closer enemies such as Cesar Chavez), would destroy us and our friends, England and Israel. I would choose to destroy them all before allowing them to touch a single American, Englishman or Israeli.
Steve-AR @ 105
I agree (it’s an excellent link), but I would word this differently to direct those advocating torture, rather than those of us merely talking about it.
Anyone with a shred of empathy does not need any personal experience with torture to comprehend the evil of it.
tjb @ 107
As the Declaration of Independence states, our liberty does not come from Government from our Creator. As far as the Constitution is concerned, the Authorization of the Use of Military Force gives the President all authority to use whatever means at his disposal to defeat the enemy. Declarations of war were obsolete in 1787 although they were used sporadically thereafter, but certainly not universally.
LibertyLee @ 80
Yeah, that’s like saying you can disagree with the policy of serial killing but that doesn’t mean you have to put John Wayne Gacey in jail.
We’re talking about torture here. I don’t care how good of a reason you have for doing it, it’s just WRONG.
I’m sure most murderers have a very good reason (in their own minds) for doing it. That doesn’t excuse the behavior.
Why is it Republican are ALL FOR accountability when it comes to unionized school teachers, but when it comes to leaders who’s poor decisions lead to the deaths and suffering of untold millions of people, suddenly asking for accountability is just unreasonable?
That’s a rhetorical question by the way. I think we all know the answer to it.
phred@101 . Of course decapitation is the physical separation of the head from the body. The horror of it is the effect it has upon the loved ones, the comrades and the family. That’s why it is the ultimate torture short of nuclear torture. Anyone who has seen the Pearl tape knows the horror of decapitation done personally by Zarqawi, who thankfully, is no longer among the living, having been taken care of by a beautiful American fighter bomber.
I think the last link that Scarecrow gave is crucially important. I had not really understood in detail what waterboarding is until I read it last night. From what is said there, it’s clear my confusion was deliberately induced; he directly goes at the idea it’s a simulation, because that’s what has been said about it so many times.
The link is very, very difficult to read, I had to go at it in two rounds. At the link, the former SERE Naval officer explains (emphasis mine):
What the hell does Mukasey find repugnant but legal about a simulated execution by drowning. Simulated execution is explicitly banned by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which IIRC is a Senate-ratified treaty, making it “the highest law of the land,” per Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, which reads:
Scarecrow @ 25
Actually, McCain’s position is not suprising. He long ago sold his soul to the Bush family and became their toady. He has rejected his own military heroics to better serve his masters.
Christy’s upstairs
I guess I don’t get all the hits on the foreign service union guys. They’re just civil servants. They’re supposed to be apolicitcal. They are in effect offering to resign, rather than take the assignment and pointed out that it would be different if they “believed in” the operation. That is highly unusual, in that no civil servant is expected to endorse a particular policy, but to do their job through any administration, regardless of party or policy.
Bay State Librul @ 71
I agree. I don’t know what Matthews’ deal is with the Clintons, but I couldn’t watch any more of it.
LibertyLee @ 85
No LibertyLee, once again you show your lack of historical knowledge. “Victors’ justice” would have been unilaterally killing or imprisoning the vanquished with no regard to any legalities whatsoever.
It’s called “rule of law”
Professor Foland @ 114
Thanks, Prof. That point alone is worth emphasizing in post. The “simulated” term is a cover for denial.
I just found this at BuzzFlash. Doonesbury creator, Gary Trudeau, was a classmate of Torture Guy. One of his first cartoons was about hazing by “branding with an iron.” King George like the rough stuff even in college.
All it took was a suggestion about outing the boy’s pimply ass. Instant cave in.
LibertyLee @ 109
Osama doesn’t have the wherewithal to do that. He has astutely sized up Bush, and reeled the US into a fight on his own ground. He knows what he did to the USSR, who was much more ruthless than us and still lost.
Moreover, Osama has led Bush to destroy us from within. The chilling fact the right-wing denies is Bush is doing Osama’s work for him.
We went thru a civil war and two world wars with our constitution intact. Bush has, bit by bit, shredded it for eight years, relying on the vastly overblown fear you describe.
This is not to say Osama is not a major threat – he is. I’d happily line him up in my crosshairs and pull the trigger. But that would never happen in Iraq, because Osama is not there. Why are we?
Given that, why this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07…..mp;ei=5088
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/14/barnes-osama/
Because of this, maybe?
http://www.judicialwatch.org/1685.shtml
Keep in mind, Judicial Watch was founded to go after the Clintons!
Do you really think he had to waterboard him? I would have said he used a waterbed.
LibertyLee @ 61
It’s clear from this statement that you personally have never been subjected to waterboarding or life threatening interrogation of any kind. I’ll bet you live in a nice home and work in an air-conditioned office.
LibertyLee @109:
“Englishman”? So the Welsh, Scots and Ulster Irish are fair game? Go away, you historical illiterate.
LibertyLee @ 113
Pearl was not killed by Zarqawi.
Please bone up on your facts.
-GSD
Can someone get Mukasey to admit that torture is illegal, period, by the third Geneva convention, which we signed, and remind him that we tried people for war crimes who used it?
Also, can we get senators and judges to recognize that ‘24′ is a TV show: that is, it’s fiction, not a documentary or a ‘how to’ show? And that if you have only 24 hours to find a hidden bomb, your law enforcement system has already failed at least three times (first in border security, second in preventing the bomb from being constructed or places, third in not knowing beforehand about any group that would do it)?
Is it possible that Graham came around because the White House threatened to out him, like they did with Larry Craig?
raven @ 57
Alice doesn’t live here any more.
Bay State Librul @ 71
What no sympathy for Mike Gravel? He wasn’t even allowed on the stage.
What no sympathy for Rudy? He was pilloried and nobody cares.
Why should I feel badly for someone who is asked a question and can’t answer it with a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?
“Graham, McCain and Warner”
Gosh, where have I seen *THOSE* names listed before as Republicans who’d provide bipartisan cover to Democrats who were afraid of opposing the big bad Bush Administration by their lonesomes?
Tools, all three.
And cowards, most of the fifty.
Malcolm Nance, an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence has publicly denounced the practice and says waterboarding is a torture technique – period, a process of slow-motion suffocation.
http://news.independent.co.uk/…..115549.ece
A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience to horrific, suffocating punishment, to the final death spiral. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch.”
To Liberty Lee
The constitution cannot be changed by congress passing a act such as the war powers act. I notice you refused to answer the question when congress declaired war do you reject our constitutional form of goverment?
I often heard in the sixty’s love it or leave it goes both ways,Baby
LibertyLee @ 61
Huh? You seem to think that things that cause excruciating and protracted pain and suffering are NOT TORTURE while something that would likely kill one very quickly IS TORTURE.
You really need to get a grasp on what words mean, LL.
Torturers actually go out of their way to keep their victims alive…to continue to create more pain and suffering. That’s why victims of torture actually beg for death…beg to be killed.
And many forms of torture don’t leave physical scars. They don’t break the skin. Waterboarding was one of the most insidious methods used by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge to extract “confessions”. People would say anything to make the suffering and panic stop. Only when they confessed were they granted respite from the torture and shot.
LibertyLee @ 61
So, leaving aside for the moment what constitutes torture, you seem to be saying it’s fine to waterboard those we perceive as enemies, because waterboarding doesn’t kill and what counts is winning and defeating a “desperate enemy.” Demonize the enemy so that anything is justified.
Winning at the expense of our own humanity is not winning. But it takes a certain sensibility to understand this.
You miss the point. It’s not about wanting people punished, that’s an authoritarian perspective. We’re not authoritarians here.