The Mukasey nomination is headed for a vote next week. Sidney has some illuminating thoughts on who was behind the muddled waterboarding testimony in the confirmation hearing, and all the convoluted responses since then. And why:
…Mukasey is not a free agent. He had been strictly briefed and in his testimony was following orders. He has avoided calling waterboarding torture because that is consistent with the administration’s position and past practice. Mukasey’s refusal to disavow waterboarding reveals his acceptance of his assignment to a secondary role as attorney general, an inferior agent, not a constitutional officer, to certain political appointees in the White House.
Those who are responsible for waterboarding have defined and dictated Mukasey’s evasions. His acquiescence demonstrates that no one in his position could take a contrary view to that of David Addington, Vice President Cheney’s former counsel and now chief of staff, who directed and coauthored the infamous memos by former deputy assistant director of the Office of Legal Counsel John Yoo justifying torture, and charged the current acting director of OLC, Stephen Bradbury, to issue new memos rationalizing it.
Addington is the reigning legal authority within the administration, presiding over the attorney general no matter who would fill the job. Addington rules by decree and tantrum, intolerant of any alternative opinion, which he suppresses with intimidation and threat. Gonzales, as White House counsel and then attorney general, was the marionette of Karl Rove and Addington. Rove is gone, but Addington remains….
Jack Balkin has more thoughts along the same lines. Nothing like using someone else’s reputation and job prospects for your own, personal CYA firewall, eh, David? Hey, if the Libby maneuver worked for your boss…
For more on Addington as Cheney’s right hand, read Jane Mayer’s brilliant piece and this from Ari Shapiro at NPR. And these insights from emptywheel from the Libby trial — enigma, that one. Contact information for the Senate Judiciary Committee can be found here…and while you have them on the phone, tell them no basket warrants or retroactive telecom immunity in the FISA bill.
(Photo of David Addington from Corbis via NPR.)
Related posts:
- Addington’s Direct Involvement in the Torture Memos
- Bush DOJ Official Daniel Levin “Not Opposed” to Torture Investigations
- Liz Cheney: Calling My Daddy a Torturer is Libelous
- A Tale of Two Nominees: Why Civil Liberties “Extremists” are Disappointed in Obama
- Washington Post: Rove More Involved in US Attorney Firings Than He Claims
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Hello Redd.
CHS!!
yo
This is from the last thread, but it’s not really OT, and I really wanted to get it off my chest:
SufiLizard @ 110
Good morning, Christy!
If this administration is so enamored with Addington’s legal reasoning, why don’t they nominate him for AG?
Now that would be an interesting hearing.
To The PHONES!!!
EPU’d: What the hell does Mukasey find repugnant but legal about a simulated execution by drowning. Simulated execution is explicitly banned by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which IIRC is a Senate-ratified treaty, making it “the highest law of the land,” per Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, which reads:
Also EPU’d, and I think relevant:
I think the last link that Scarecrow gave is crucially important. I had not really understood in detail what waterboarding is until I read it last night. From what is said there, it’s clear my confusion was deliberately induced; he directly goes at the idea it’s a simulation, because that’s what has been said about it so many times.
The link is very, very difficult to read, I had to go at it in two rounds. At the link, the former SERE Naval officer explains (emphasis mine):
Jeralyn’s piece,”Mukasey, Rudy and Bernie Kerik”, puts into question the meme “Murkasey the ethical conservative”. He is a hack just like the rest of them.link
I haven’t been able to follow this confirmation very closely, but has anyone asked Mukasey if he has ever had conversations with or been coached by admin officials or their proxies on this “is waterboarding torture” issue? Seems like that is a simple yes or no question that permits no equivocation.
Also, I’ll make an observation. I think that the Administration has adopted, internally, a stance that basically says, “If it doesn’t break the skin, it’s not torture”.
Steve-AR @ 9
“ethical conservative” – now that’s an oxymoron.
It looks like Mukasey will not even make it out of the Committee. Then what?
Badwater @ 12
Just as much of one as “compassionate conservative”
Looks like they are setting up the next administration. Must have promised Mukasey AG or why would he give up his career for 14months.
Professor Foland @ 11
If it doesn’t break the skin, we don’t have to admit we torture.
Biodun @ 13
When’s the next recess?
Professor Foland @ 8
I bookmarked it a few days ago and have re-read it several times. It is the definitive piece on the subject. The author has been waterboarded and has waterboarded hundrends of people..
snowbird42 @ 15
We once again see the steady hand of Permanent Vice President Cheney working its magic.
print has a way of bringing the black and white of reality out in the open where it can be colored as the observer wishes.
what can’t be disguised is the Mucous is an appointment by a gangland boss to protect his violations of hundreds of laws. it is beyond fascination as to why the nomination is even considered?
You would allow a crook to appoint another to protect him? No amount of justification can be put forth to excuse the criminality of the nomination itself, not to mention the actions we know this person will undertake to further destroy our legal system the department of justice, etc..
to consider such an option would indicate a compromise beyond law, taking that step directly into the obstruction of justice, at the least.
It is truly amazing that our congress would do anything except shut down the administration to prevent more lawbreaking. No, they are working with them to further destroy the country.
For me, an actual American, such consideration is offensive and absurd. The very idea that congress is mulling this over shows that this country is gone. A government of the people would not allow this to even come up in committee, and no way it would ever get to a vote.
I must retire with disgust that anyone but a fascist could consider, even consider, the machinations of this government as being anything but organized crime. We have lost what we had, and it was only barely worth keeping. It is time to ask the people what they want again. 75% are saying that what we have is broken. They are being ignored because it won’t pay anyone to help us.
when in the course…..
Badwater @ 19
That was Jeralyn’s take on his nomination.link
Morning CHS.
It does seem that this administration has managed to find every evil Mother F**ker that could be had. It also seems that this particular version of Congress has no intention, for what ever reason, of doing anything serious about stopping bush et al.
As an experiment in representative democracy this country has failed after 200 some odd years. It is time to advance to a parliamentary system.
Howie Klein’s take on the Murkasey nomination.link
Companion reading this morning, Jane Smiley indicts BushCo for its lawlessness.
My shorter take: Yes, George, there is a line. And you crossed it. I don’t care how many times you’ve gotten away with these tactics. How indulged you’ve been by your parents and their enabler cronies. How wussified the Congress has been. You crossed the line. And there are consequences.
It’s about personal courage. The one thing all these turkeys have forgotten about Jack Bauer is, he knew where the line was and he was willing to accept the consequences.
John Edwards exemplifies personal courage. This more than anything else is what resonates with me. Because we’re going to need a leader with personal courage, not just political expediency or “ah don have a problum with dictatorships as long as ah git ta be dictator….”
I know that there are alot of very intellegent people that frequent this web sight and I just wanted to get a feel for the idea that since we have justifiable homicide as an out to killing someone for a good reasons… why can’t we get back to the practice of not praticing torture, and when that “ticking Time Bomb scenario comes up, THEN the person in charge can step over that line knowing that they will be absolved of any wrong doing!
Justifiable only after the act is committed, when demonstrated that there actually was a time bomb.
We are on a road to Hell as a nation if we allow Mukasey and his criminal ilk to shred our Constiution and Internatoinal image any further.
Biodun @ 13
What’s going on with DiFi? Any word on how she’ll vote?
(And is John Cole still a Democrat?)
Called Schumer, DiFi, Specter, Sessions. Told staff phone answerer that there was one Q that needed to be asked before deciding on the vote: If waterboarding were done to a U.S. soldier, would it be torture.
WRT Specter, I added a reference to his statement indicating that people who engaged in this conduct should not be held accountable. Namely that if he did not believe in the rule of law he had no business being in the U.S. Senate.
snowbird42 @ 15
which is bizarre, there is no way on the planet they think they will win the next election
this means they have no intention of releasing adminstration offices, they will find a way to remain in power
they either have guarantee’s the machines will not fail them this election or they don’t think there will be an election
I posted this downstairs, right on topic here
yesterday, bush’s aids were determined to go on record as saying that no legal document matters when the president says you can do it
time and again, he repeated, the president can overide any law, he was insistant
we know as a fact the president “designates” his authority to whoever he feels like it, he disignated his “authority to declassify on the fly”, he deisgnated abilities to hundreds powers that once belonged to a number you count on one or two hands
what does this add up to?
do the republicans actually want this power to go to a democrat?
do the republicans actually want this power to go to the person most likely to win the democratic nomination and therefore the presidency, one hillary clinton?
the answer is unequivicalby NO
they would never allow it, the administration would never allow it, cheney would not, bush would not, the fascists pulling the strings would not
I am sorry, they have no intention of leaving office…none
let me make a point, not a stretch in the least
since the president can order any law broken by anyone he wants, if this actually accepted by congress, he can order no elections
he can also order no impeachment
he can order anything he wants
they have no intention of leaving office, none
This also from Sid in Salon:
Looks like Darth learned a thing or two from Casey.
(Same link as second link in Christy’s post.)
perris @ 28
Don’t go down the rabbit hole by buying into their way of thinking. Remember, Rove’s numbers showed they’d win the 06 election. They’re in Denialville. No reason for us to visit them there.
Has anyone linked to “Snowflakes”, today’s Post piece on the banality of Donald Rumsfeld’s evil?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
brendan at 31 — It’s coming up in the next post. And it’s quite the read, isn’t it?
If he unequivocally states that water boarding is torture, he is faced with the matter that this administration HAS admitted to have done water boarding. Which of course, means that Bush has done torture, and so this opens up a huge can of worms for them and will lead to law suits.
SO he won’t say that it actually IS torture.
He’s a shill for Cheney and Bush and the constitution crushers.
eCAHNomics @ 30
they aren’t in denialville, the machines simply weren’t programmed to flip as much as they needed to flip
they aren’t gonna make that mistake, they know as a fact the republicans are gonna have a tough time winning the next election and they surely have something planned that will turn that tide
EPU. I just found this at BuzzFlash. Doonesbury creator, Gary Trudeau, was a classmate of Torture Guy. One of his first cartoons was about hazing by “branding with an iron.” King George like the rough stuff even in college.
“Even then he had clearly awesome social skills,” Trudeau said. “He could also make you feel extremely uncomfortable … He was extremely skilled at controlling people and outcomes in that way. Little bits of perfectly placed humiliation.”
T- @ 10
I think they did ask him, and I think he said he had not spoken with anyone in the Administration….(unless I imagined it).
SanderO @ 33
not really, they have layed the groundwork to claim anything the president orders is lawful BECAUSE he is president.
they have that base covered they would just rather it not get to that point
Glenn Greenwald live blogged the first day of the Mukasey hearing:
It seemed to me that they should have shut the hearing down right there. Mukasey was talking about the “emperor’s new clothes.” Everyone has seen photos from Abu Ghraib and read of FBI memos from Guantanamo. Nothing on earth is better documented than the fact that we torture. Any person who sits there with his bare face hanging out and insists otherwise is not a person of integrity and is telling the Senate to take their integrity shibboleth for Attorney General and stick it up their ass.
The Mukasey charade should have ended on its first day.
Morning, Christy!
Don’t I remember John Dean saying Addington should be at the top of any impeachment heap? What a piece of work…
Mukasey is another spineless moral coward. He’s as far from a man of honor as can be imagined. A faceless, spineless bureaucrat without an ounce of independence or courage.
Go f*ck yourself Mucousy.
-GSD
OT..$100/bl oil will be here soon..$96 today and the Feds cut rates..when the inflation hits, it will be vicious. IIRC, when the evil Clenis left office, oil was $20. The economy and Nov ‘08 are on a collision course.
So bush has been has been torturing, murdering, and praticing Satanism since he realized that his Mother was the Bride of Lucifer… I knew that in 1999!
LS @ 36
He was asked, he denied it, said he had a quiet dinner with his wife..no talk with WH..IMO lying..SOP for Republicans.
widerness wino @ 42
at the hearings did anyone ask if why the practice was going on before 9/11?
Steve-AR @ 41
I read that the economy “grew” at a 3.9% rate in the last Q. Inflation was low by the same numbers. Of course the inflation rate does not count Energy or Food. So if they take dollars spent (growth) and don’t show inflation of those dollars… dadah… the economy grew. Gotta love those gummint economists.
Question for eCAHNomics what are the real inflation numbers including Food and Energy and can we get the facts without waterboarding?
perris @ 44
Anyone wanna bet that you can find some examples of its being done during the Clinton Administration? Don’t have any knowledge of this, just suspect that Rs have researched it thoroughly and found something.
They should ask Mukasey if he’d agree to be waterboarded on the Senate floor.
Drive by (I’m at work) but it seems more apparent than ever that the only solution is impeachment.
GSD @ 40
You’re much too kind. Watching Olbermann last night (while handing out candy), I decided he must be a minion of some sort of evil incarnate. The Addington connection would explain that Iguess.
You mean just as they have been spying illegally since before 911?
I wish that people that are in discussions with others on the topic of retoactive immunity for the telecoms would state this fact often and loudly…
This was ordered by bush/cheney before 911!
widerness wino @ 42
I will say I can picture Ma Bush in pinstripes and a tommy gun with one leg on the running board of a 1932 Rolls.
Here is another goodie:
link
The best fiction writer couldn’t make this shit up.
dov12348 @ 47
Yeah if he’s not so sure that it’s torture, maybe Mukasey should try it at home–on himself that is.
solai @ 48
But Nancy can’t say “impeachment” just like Maynard G. Krebs couldn’t say “work.”
Steve-AR @ 41
if eCAHNomics is still here… i’d love to see the two of you discuss this question – “does the rate cut lead to inflation?”
just so i can watch and learn. *g*
perris @ 37
Brian Beutler addresses this point here:
http://www.brianbeutler.com/2007/10/waterboarding/
And courtesy Malcolm Nance, here is a description of waterboarding:
“There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists
1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.
2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.
Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.
Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.”
(My bold)
http://smallwarsjournal.com/bl…..ure-perio/
LS @ 36
oh the parsing opportunities… “spoken with” “in the administration”…. emailed, texted, outside the administration….in the Repub Senators’ staffs as conduits…. legion.
mui @ 49
He is Rudy’s BFF..nothing more needs to be said. The guy is evil.
mui @ 53
Let’s not advocate torture, even in jest.
I hear that I can get a waterboard “treatment” with my facial and pedicure when I go to Disney World on vacation this year!
T- @ 10
Wish that they had! I don’t remember one member of the committee deeming that one simple question important enough to ask. But the answer certainly would have spoken volumes.
Although…didn’t someone ask Mukasey if anyone had talked to him about his testimony between day one and day two?
nomolos @ 45
If you waterboarded me, I’d tell you you are right. But in fact, you’re not. Of course the GDP deflator (the broadest measure of inflation in the U.S.) includes food & energy, precisely at the point when consumers buy them. In the 3Q, those rose at a less rapid rate than in the 2Q, but they will pick up again in the 4Q. In 3Q, prices of investment goods & services (16% of GDP) actually declined, and that, coupled with the lower inflation rate in energy, gave a very positive inflation figure for the quarter.
Supply-side inflation (higher oil prices, lower $) in the face of a cooling economy is not likely to go very far. In the bad old 1980s, we called it stagflation, but there were so many other factors involved then that are not present now, that I wouldn’t rush to any conclusions.
Plenty of problems with U.S. economy, of which higher energy prices is one. But they’ll play out slowly with the Fed determined to bail out the economy as long as interest rates are greater than zero.
Economy will be a problem for Rs in 08, but probably a grinding one, not a crisis one.
Now going into hiding to avoid waterboarding for giving the wrong answer.
eCAHNomics @ 46
ya, I’ll take that bet
this administration had to recruit people to do it, most refused, others quit and others wanted guarantees against prosecution
Frank33 @ 35
Made me think about this again:
http://www.geocities.com/jacksonthor/knowdeat.html
mc @ 59
I am making a jest. but hardly advocating torture.
started my calls with senator leahy. asked that the nomination not be brought to a vote in the sjc w/o a solid vote count to defeat the nomination.
As a couple of posters have already touched on, a lot of this traces back to the lack of will to do the right thing in the wake of Watergate.
When Ford issued his pardon of Nixon it temporarily saved the nation from a little short-term uncomfortable political wrangling at the expense of our long-term success as a Democracy.
I think it should be evident in both our personal lives as well as at the political national level avoiding tackling the big issues ALWAYS leads to larger problems later. I worry we’ve gone so far we’re beyond repair at this point.
Professor Foland @ 11
If Mukasey doesn’t know if waterboarding is torture (as much as it’s been discussed over the last year or so,) I wonder how he would categorize burning with cigarettes (leaving burn scars all over the body) or pulling nails out of hands and feet. Torture? How about throwing the enemy out of planes without a parachute? Torture? Murder?
eCAHNomics @ 62
Aha. Thanks. I never could understand them economics.
mc @ 59
this isn’t advocating torture though
the man doesn’t think it’s torture, he can prove it, he can be water boarded and the practitioner can try to get him to say it’s torture, if it’s not then mukasey will not say it is
it would be entirely voluntary which means it’s not torture
I bet he refuses though
no harm in asking him;
“do you think if we subjected yourself or anyone that doesn’t think the practice is torture we might “persuade” them to say it is if we waterboarded them”
I guarantee his answer will be;
“yes, that would persuade that person it is torture”
he would have no choice…that question really has to be posed
selise @ 55
I have no idea.. but following Atrios and his links is useful. A significant financial correction has to happen and all of the things being done to delay it are going to make it worse. I think the Thugs will do anything to push the crash into Hillary’s first term; blame her and the Dems and use that as the springboard for retaking the govt.
CHS @32:
The micromanaging control of the press is what I took away from it. Their obsessiveness about op-eds would be comic if it weren’t so reminiscent of Goebbels.
Also, the particular “snowflake” or “bumper snicker” that most begs elucidation is “Keep turning up the threat level” (though it is given its own highlighted box on the printed page, to the Post’s credit).
I am only going to say this once today: discussing policy issues, talking about their effects, fine and dandy. Advocating torture or violence against another person in these threads?
No.
perris @ 70
Oh sure, and doesn’t the Cheney administration have its own “psychologists” telling them what they want to hear.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 73
Thanks, Christy.
selise:
The rate cut is another (on top of the earlier 1/2 point one) ominous sign that we’re not a fiscally reputable country. It’s as much a symptom of inflation as a portent of it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 73
Is it OK to say that the administration policies ARE torture
dov12348 @ 47
Sorry for my comment; I’ll withdraw it.
Steve-AR @ 71
See me @ 62
I’m going to join the EPU parade to say that Liberty Lee’s comments are fascinating. He seems fearful of outside forces, to the point of surrendering his legal rights. He sees the US as being in a struggle to the death with al-Qaeda, or some other dark and mysterious group. Then he says that we lefties are afraid ourselves, afraid we are being spied on, in the last thread, as if we are in a struggle to the death with the conservatives. He went so far this morning as to worry that we might try to jail all the conservatives, including him.
This is fascinating. No doubt many of us are worried that we are losing our nation and our freedom to a lawless rogue government, and we often use the language of fear to explain ourselves. Still, it’s hard to comprehend the level of fear in people like Liberty Lee, because at my worst hour, I still hope for the best, and I know that we all do. I think he has lost the capacity for hope and optimism, and it is just another black mark on the republicans that they have hurt so many people in that way.
I’m worried about Schumer. He sponsored Mukasey and has been notable in refusing to voice any significant opposition, at least in the papers.
Those of you who followed the SJC hearings, I’d love to learn that I’m wrong.
What can be done about Addington???
This Administration is the “perfect storm”…a sociopath as President with a meglomaniac warmonger Vice President…advised and protected by David Addington who is…what…what is he??? There must be a string to tug on somewhere regarding Addington.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 73
Christy there is no advocating here. I would however like to point out the irony of all these “experts” Yoo, Addington, Mukasey and their merry band of followers would never want to be subjected to the same thing they are telling the American public is ok and good because it helps them catch “bad people.”
Biodun @ 13
Well, what is really sad is that IF he makes out, he will be confirmed. There are enough bush dogs to shut down a filibuster.
Let’s not forget how much Irve Lewis Libby suffered at the hands of the out of control judicial system.
-GSD
Considering the new…homegrown terrorist thingy they just passed…maybe those comments should be “disappeared” from the thread…just sayin’…even though they were snark.
Steve-AR @ 41
Oil was $20 and the US dollar was worth more than a Canadian dollar, an Austrailian dollar, and a Euro. Those Bush tax cuts just keep on working! I’m just puzzled why Bush isn’t calling for even more tax cuts because according to him (and he has an MBA), when the economy is not good, just cut taxes on the wealthy.
At least we can all be happy that the oil companies will yet again report record profits. Real Mission Accomplished!
Christy no one was advocating torture. If Mukasy doesn’t think WB is torture, he can prove it by doing it. Why not have the CIA stage a demo on the senate floor so everyone can see it real time for themselves and put this to bed once and for all?
If he says not necessary. WB is torture, then proceed to go after those who do and have done it.
Badwater @ 87
Cheney shorted the dollar two years ago: http://articles.moneycentral.m…..dNews.aspx
eCAHNomics @ 79
So what happens when we start printing money to pay down the national debt/ Didn’t someone do that in the 1930’s?
In all my life I never thought I would see supposed leaders of my country publicly stand up and justify, defend, and rationalize torture techniques. In fact, some Republicans are almost advocating torture if it will “save American lives”. I find this reprehensible and downright scary.
I was raised believing Americans were better than this. What has happened to America? How have we allowed this to happen? We have become our worst enemy.
The political far right has cultivated fear like a plant. Remember the days after the Clinton election and before the OK City bombing.
Those days will return in spades as soon as a Republican leaves office.
We will hear breathless reports about the abuse of executive power and the dangerous of a too powerful government.
It is like a game.
-GSD
Gromit @ 81
in making my calls this morning, i was told (by the person who answered the phone in senator schumer’s office) in regard to mukasey’s position on torture and waterboarding, “i can assure you that the senator was not aware of that when he made the recommendation”
finger’s crossed.
and you-all are making the calls too, right?
eCAHNomics @ 79
I will defer to your opinion..on this subject mine is pure BS. I sure hope you are right..I remember paying 16% on my first home loan in 1980 and at the time oil was (in 2007 $) ~$101.
realworld @ 91
Bush will introduce Mugabeconomics to America.
We know who’ll get the blame for the coming American unravelling. It won’t be Bill Kristol or Neil Cavuto.
-GSD
Regardless of whether Mukasey thinks WB is torture or not, I’m pretty sure that we Firepups think it is. Therefore, when we say “If Mukasy doesn’t think WB is torture, he can prove it by doing it. Why not have the CIA stage a demo on the senate floor so everyone can see it real time for themselves and put this to bed once and for all?” we are lowering ourselves to their level.
We can do better. We are better.
I believe the worst crime committed during the Bush junta is the neutering of our congress.
GSD @ 96
That would be “the commie, pinko, socialist, baby killing lesbian..Hillary.”
SanderO at 88 — Because we have moderators who do their jobs, you have no idea what did not make it to the front page. Be grateful.
“On behalf of and with the power of attorney of my clients I submit the following
Criminal complaint for all crimes within the scope of the Criminal Code of Crimes Against International Law (CCIL), namely war crimes against people and criminal responsibility of military commanders and other superiors §§ 8, 4, 13 and 14 CCIL and grievous bodily harm, §§ 223, 224 German Criminal Code in connection with §§ 1 CCIL, 6 No. 9 Criminal Code and the UN Convention on Torture and Article 129 GK against the following U.S. citizens:”
Which includes Addington.
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/GermanCase2006/Docs/Table of Contents for German Complaint.pdf
The irony is, I never thought I would find myself thinking of John Ashcroft as a defender of our way of life.
Here is the entry on Mukasey from my scandals list:
realworld @ 91
Not that I know. I’m not an economic historian, but my knowledge of the 1930s is that we did exactly the opposite, i.e. pursued contractionary policies. U.S. raised taxes to balance the budget. Not sure about monetary policy, but think it was restrictive. (Anyone who knows for sure, chime in.)
The U.S. debt is a complicated issue, with no easy predictions arising. In general, large debtors own the bank (think Trump), meaning that it’s not in the interest of U.S. creditors to trash the assets they already own. Typically, the U.S. indebtedness to foreigners would become a pile-on problem, not an initiator of problems. But many moving parts & hard to see how it will all not work out & when.
Best guess: less now, more later. Another problem for Hillary to confront.
Diane @ 98
Congress was fully complicit.
mc @ 97
That is not as outrageous as it sounds. Some US military personnel are waterboarded as part of training. Showing members of congress a demo might change some minds..on the other hand the Thug sociopaths would love it.
SWJ
pma @ 101
I think at this point, we are safe in concluding that irony is dead.
Follow up to my @72:
The micromanaging of the press is a recurring topic, as today’s post on the Boylan imbroglio indicates:
“Really? Is this what military officers in Iraq are getting paid to do? To micro-micro-manage media perception of the (failing) “Surge” strategy?”
Because I usually presume the people in this administration know precisely what they’re doing, I have to conclude the central front in Iraq, and the “war on terror” generally, really is the press.
perris @ 37
The last ditch Nixon defense. Wont work. Can’t work (unless the USA is already extinct).
mc @ 97
Here Here, well stated…
could someone with a little knowledge address my Justifiable Homicide take from #25… I am just trying to find a way to blow their “Ticking Time Bomb” senario out of the water!
Arlen Specter voiced the opinion that Mukasey was unable to call waterboarding torture and a criminal activity because it would expose those who had previously approved the use of waterboarding to the risk of prosecution. (I am paraphrasing his statement.)
Haiving said that, it becomes clear that Mukasey is involved in a cover-up even BEFORE he becomes attorney general. I guess we should know what to expect from him if he is confirmed, eh?
Somehow I don’t think that is what we are looking for. If we can’t admit our errors as a nation, then we can’t correct them. Call your Senator today, and ask if he/she supports covering up criminal activity.
pma @ 102
you’re in luck, you don’t have to.
/angry-attempt-at-humor
Didn’t the Military Commisions Act provide for retroactive immunity? Retroactive immunity will be Bush’s legacy.
I think we are experiencing the new and improved version of Iran Contra Part Deux, combined with the new and improved Watergate on steroids (TSP), and they are running for the finish line.
screw difi and her fake argument about how the telcos won’t have the resources to defend themselves…because of the various security issues. tfb
mc @ 97
I disagree. If it is between allowing this to go on (in secret, if need be – according to the Administration, for “national security”) or making it clear in no uncertain terms that it IS, in fact, torture, then there is no better way to prove that to the defenders of the practice than to expose them to the practice. THEN ask them again if what they just went through is torture or not? Was it torture or simply like hazing one might experience at a Frat?
It is torture. No sane or logical person can argue otherwise, but they have tried to throw sand in the faces of the public (and themselves) to argue that it is not torture. So…if it isn’t torture, then it can be done to them as a demo.
Just before they undergo the procedure (strapped down and with the rag about to be stuffed into their mouths), they can be asked again if this is torture or not. If they say “nope” or “I don’t know, I would have to examine it, blah blah” then in goes the rag and down goes the water.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 114
I take that as an acknowledgment that the telcos have the need to defend themselves.
mc @ 96
I think this called expressing our frustration that we have the administration and republicans in congress standing behind a brick wall on this issue and others, no sense can reach them. Their position on torture etc. is everything that contradicts what we know is right and fair and lawful. And they throw people like gonzo, mukasey et al at the public.
It’s just frustration.
Oh and the Republicans got decades out of the ‘liberal moral relativity’ talking point.
Why all of these clowns and fascists aren’t pelted with rotten food at every public appearance is beyond me.
-GSD
IrishJim @ 113
yes:
Maybe there should be some waterboarding in front of the capitol for the media and all of America to watch.
newtonusr @ 106
lol. Yeah, I need to quit thinking in such terms, it’s simply painful.
nomolos @ 45
And utilities, and rent, and tuition, and parking, and garbage, and water…shouldn’t they sample about a hundred people and find out their various expenses…and base their inflation figures on the increases in those items of the budgets?
The inflation figures that are cited by the government are about as close to the real thing as the quoted Prime Interest rates are to the interest rates charged by teenagers with credit cards.
pma @ 102
John Ashcroft, Comey, Philbin, and Goldsmith wrote a letter in favor of telecom immunity. I don’t think they are terribly interested in our way of life.
http://www.mydd.com/images/adm…..to_PJL.pdf
selise @ 120
Bingo!
OT..but useful info..
dov12348 @ 47
Would it be legal to set up a waterboard on the steps of Congress and actually have some people demonstrate just how horrifying it is? Maybe some ex-Navy seals…and then challenge Mucasey, Lindsay Graham, Schumer, DiFi and Arlen to “try it out if it isn’t really torture”.
Hugh @ 124
I see, thanks to you and Selise. Still, the reigning crowd offended their not so delicate sensibilities.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 32
Snowflakes = subtle (or not) brainwashing of the willing
mc @ 56
How many Navy Seals “wash out” of the training just prior to or after waterboarding training? How many require subsequent psychological counselling?
selise @ 121
Yet, whether or not Mukasey SAYS waterboarding is torture (it is internationally recognized as such, including by the US government UNTIL Bush Jr came along), Bush HAS brought shame and dishonor on the United States of America. That is an objective fact that cannot be tricked out of being a fact by calling the sky the ground.
Mukasey saying torture is torture doesn’t change the inarguable fact that Bush and Cheney have committed internationally recognized crimes with all the attendant harm that does to the USA for generations to come.
selise @ 119
I think Bruce Fein brought that up on Olbermann last night.
There was a segment on NPR this morning on reaction to an Anne Garrels story. She had been taken to see rogue Shia leaders who had been tortured by the Mahdi Army. The idea was that they were under Iranian influence. Garrels said she was horrified but reported what the torturees said in the present of their torturers because this “gelled” with other reports she had heard about from many sources.
She was tapdancing as fast as she could to avoid admitting that she had used “information” in her story that was derived from torture. Yeah, right.
Hugh @ 132
Gelled, because the torturers can get the torturees to say anything they want?
bg @ 122
have you seen this from current tv?
(i haven’t – can bring myself to watch)
George W. Shitheel is stomping his feet and sucking his thumb again.
The Boy King has a hissy.
-GSD
mui @ 133
And anything they want to hear. So the stories are always consistent with what the torturers are interested in even when they have no truth in them.
selise @ 111
Oh my, et tu Comey?
GSD @ 135
Well, boo freaking hoo for Bush. We could only hope to see how he stamps his little feet if he doesn’t get his way.
selise @ 134
I watched it this morning. It’s excellent. Together with the point made earlier, that it is actually controlled drowning, and the fact that the subject doesn’t actually know that it is controlled, should end the argument. Anway, we’re all preaching to the choir on this one.
I know one person who’s a trained interrogator in the NG.
He says waterboarding is torture; torture is forbidden, and it doesn’t work. Period.
Why can’t Mukasey and Congress get that straight?
mui @ 118
I know, I know. Believe me, the idea of subjecting them to their own medicine crosses my mind dozens of times a day. And if had my own blog, I might say things on it that I would later regret…
But here’s my argument, if Mukasey declined to say that pulling out fingernails or chopping off toes, or shooting “lower” levels of electricity through the testicles, or making one sit in their own urine and feces for hours was torture, would we call for those techniques to be publically demonstrated? On the Senate floor? Simply to point out Mukasey’s hypocricy?
I also think that all of them (Mukasey, Addington, Cheney, Bush…) do understand that WB is torture. This issue is all about legal jeopardy for those who approved this (and any other more heinous) technique. If they’re subjecting prisoners to waterboarding you can bet that there is worse shit going on that they don’t want to see the light of day.
Hugh @ 136
And of course we know how monomaniacal the ChimpCheney administration can get about one angle, even if it’s completely false to justify the means.
Call me perpetually naive. But I am always surprised and a little outraged by the stupidity, or in this case is it amorality, or just a harmful sort of credulousness, of some journalists.
Hugh @ 132
They are truly simpletons, these reporters. I can provide an alternative theory that fits the facts as she presents that also “gel with other information…” Here is a scenario: These brutalized men were, in fact, Medhi Militia members like any others but they were caught drinking alcohol (or drunk) or they were found to be gay. They were brutalized as a result, as preamble, and then executed. The fact that they provided “good” information that gelled with other information in the reporter’s possession is because these men, in good standing at the time with the Medhi Militia, DID do the crimes they are accused of (rape of a girl in one case, in the guise of Sunni insurgents…wonder how the Medhi dealt with the raped girl?), or aided in the undertaking under orders and were simply picked to be fall-guys to show how the Medhi are “policing their own” because of their “crime” of being drunk or gay or whatever.
The other fact that the reporter fails to accept and understand is that torture brings forth ALL information, true AND false. The problem, besides the basic inhumanity of the torture, is that you are then left with having to sift through a wide flood of information within which only a fraction will be “true” and accurate. You were better off NOT getting the flood of information because you wouldn’t then have an overabundance of mixed information to try to deal with.
The Clenis did it..the refrain for the next 12 months..
link
New Christy upstairs!
Dear Senator,
Today in the NY Times and various political blogs have correctly reasoned why the nominee for Attorney General Judge Michael Mukasey refuses to state ” Waterboarding is Tourture” on the record. Please follow this line of reasoning;
On the first day of his questioning, Judge M. came accross as advertized, a breath of fresh air compared to AG Gonzales. He also gave the concrete impression to the committee that he was absolutely A. independent B. Able to stand up to the President C.the law is the law is the law, and no-one is above it and D. Torture is not what America stands for.
But then on the second day, as I could see on your Senatorial puss, he amazingly refused to re-state his position on torture. All of a sudden, he started to become evasive, semantic, and it was hard to understand at the time but now is perfectly clear by the 4 page letter from the Judge, he refuses to say “Yes, waterboarding is Tourture”. What happened overnight between day 1 and day 2 of questioning? Why the marked change? Why did the direct and concise language of day 1 turn into the legal-ease of day 2 and his 4 page response. Why does he sound like AG Gonzales all over again?
2 Reasons, and this is the analysis;
1. Because of all the pending, soon to be pending, and future lawsuits, criminal inditements, investigations etc., if the soon to be Attorney General of the US of A goes on record and states “Waterboarding is torture”, he will be on record as stating the facts as he sees it, and if the Attorney General says it is Torture, and Torture is Illegal, violates the Geneva Convention, then he will basically be stating and admitting as fact that the law has been broken by anyone, anybody, from the CIA to the White House, from the interrogators to the officials responsible for ordering them to take place, are criminals. As AG, he would have no excuse not to hang them high, because he will have to swear an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution, and these torturers have broken the law.
Reason 2: Why did Judge M. change his language overnight? Because David Addington and VP Chaney saw this, saw that someone with authority to come after the administration, appoint a special prosecutor, they saw fear. they got a hold of the Judge and said “We Run The Show, This is What You Are To Say, Here is the Language You Are to Use, Memorize IT!” That’s why the 2nd day of questioning and his 4 page response smells like AGGonzales all over again. Because the words coming out of Gonzales weren’t his, just as these words aren’t the Judge’s. They are coming from the White House!
This Judge is not fit to serve. He has no more independence than AG Gonzales. YOUR VOTE IS THE KEY, you are the 10th Vote. Please, if you truly care about this country getting back to sanity, if you truly care about our position in the international community, if you don’t want our POWs out there in the field to be Waterboard Torture victims, DO NOT approve Judge M. for this most important job at this most important time in the history of the republic.
I am extremely adamant Senator. There are some in the public who do pay very strict attention. I hope I can count on my Senator to do the right thing.
someone mentioned the ole “ticking time bomb” stuff. That yankee boy Dershowitz, who primarily has his head up his ass, uses the theory to justify torture. As do others.
But the theory falls apart when applied to the Real World. It makes for great TV, and it gets little dershowitz all worked up, but it’s Tom Foolery.
The most common scene is : we have Mr. Bad Guy. A bomb is set to go off in 6 hours. Mr. Bad Guy won’t talk; in fact, he just keeps chanting koran-crap. Ergo: torture the info out of him! Boy dershowitz begins to salivate. But this nice little scene falls quickly apart.
HOW do we know there’s a bomb set to go off?
Mr. bad-guy didn’t tell us; he just sits there chanting koran-crap. Sooooo….we found out via other sources. Well, PURSUE THE OTHER SOURCES!!!!
HOW do we know the bomb is set to go off in SIX HOURS?????? See above for analysis.
HOW do we even know that Mr. bad-guy knows the exact location of said bomb??? How do we even know that Mr. bad-guy knows the bomb is set to go off in 6 hours???? Or 8 hours? or 10 hours?
How do we even know, since Mr. bad-guy is all psycho over his idiotic “virgins in heaven” crapola, that Mr. PSYCHO bad-guy, upon torture, will EVEN give us the straight scoop???
The ticking-time-bomb theory sounds really neat and cool. And, it gets little lost boys such as dershowitz all worked up. But, when applied to the REAL WORLD, the theory begins to fall apart, leaving dershowitz to do what he does best:
continue in his quest to try and find his ass from a hole in the ground.
Ghostman
Praedor Atrebates @ 108
cheney believes the defense holds and yes, it seems like our beloved country is already extinct
pelosi refuses to hold these criminals to account
This process is broken. We need to start over. All the people who are on the inside have omerta-ism and can only be trusted by their consiglieres.
Please get active in the DNC’s One Year Out Events so we can take over the Democratic Party.
Praedor Atrebates @ 143
Or how about not true and false. But the kind of word salad that comes from a person who’s lost their mind due to extreme stress, pain etc.
Ghostman at 147 — Well, if you are going to use empirical data, logic and common sense…sheesh… *G*
Ghostman @ 147
Didn’t they throw that ticking time bomb statement that was supposedly made by Bill, at Hillary?
Ghostman @ 147
I want one of these clowns to name a single incident in the entire history of the United States that was such a “ticking timebomb” situation wherein instantaneous and brutal treatment was necessary to save American lives, a city, the country, whatever. Name one.
They can’t because the scenario is fiction. One hundred percent bullshit fiction with no connection to the real universe within which we live.
perris @ 70
“yes, that would persuade that person it is torture”
In addition he would demonstrate in this response that the method would compel people to produce either a) true information (that it is torture) or b) erroneous information (it isn’t actually torture, but that person thinks it was). Thus, either way, it entirely undercuts any use of such a technique. It’s either torture or it produces useless information.
called DIFI office to tell her the four every-time voters in my house in CA want her to oppose Mukasey on torture. I told the nice woman who answered that there was a time when Dems stood up to a lawless WH and DOJ during watergate. They required E. Richardson as a condition of confirmation to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate lawlessness and illegalities in the WH and DOJ. They even set terms and negotiated with Richardson who it would be — Archie Cox from Harvard and once a federal circuit court judge. The rest is history.
I told the office staff at DIFI that I hoped the era when Dems had spine had not passed. I pray but wonder whether they still have that kind of resoluteness and reverence for the Constitution.
mc @ 141
No of course we wouldn’t want to see it on the senate floor. And really my revenge fantasies revolve around handcuffs a frogwalk and tearful testimony.
It’s the same frustration with sending kids to Iraq, and well, we don’t exactly see Michelle Malkin joining up.
cinnamonape @ 154
But torture doesn’t produce “useless information”. It produced information. Some of it true, some of it (most?) bogus. It brings forth anything and everything, so it is useless on a functional level but it does get the truth. It’s just hidden under a huge pile of shit that cannot be washed off.
Attention Moderator: You may want to mark this for deletion.
I can’t shake the image of Mukasey getting out there in front of the judiciary committee to make a once-and-for-all final determination, live on CSPAN, of whether or not waterboarding is torture. He agrees to subject himself to the procedure as part of his confirmation process, so he appears in the hearing room with two hooded interrogators and a plastic washtub. Mukasey is wearing a speedo tank suit, bathing cap, and goggles, and he’s carrying one of those styrofoam kickboards.
Now the country will know the nominee is dedicated to going to any lengths to determine what is just and what isn’t.
Give him an ovation.
The fact that readers here and elsewhere have a need to be reminded that advocating torture or injury to others is an unacceptable mode of discourse speaks volumes about the damage on our society inflicted by the Bush administration. George Bush, as leader of a nation, had an unavoidable imperative to set a tone and an example that would expand and enhance civilization, not destroy it. But his policy of speaking and tolerating lies, distortions, and exaggerations in the daily messages put out by his administration have served to distort and destroy the communications that we all participate in. The outcome becomes visible when we see comments that advocate things like waterboarding prospective candidates for Attorney General.
Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and others have taken Bush’s example to heart. We see a daily unraveling of the civility of discourse, wedges used to drive apart the very structure of our society. This process is a very slippery slope indeed, leading as it does to a powerful sense of frustration and hopelessness in large numbers of people. And if it leads, as it appears to be leading, towards increasing economic disparity and further social disruption, then the future becomes cloudy indeed. George Bush may have sown the seeds of a future America that will destroy everything he claims to value as “good”.
For this reason, if for none other, Bush and Cheney must be impeached. Their continued hold on power is simply too destructive to be allowed to continue.
Praedor Atrebates @ 157
As a person who minored in psychology (perception being a favorite), I am pretty sure that blanket statements can not be made about effects of torture in terms of usefulness. I would bet there is a continuum with lots of variable, like pain thresholds, that could produce anything from word salad babble to a more logical sounding word salad kind of babble to “I will tell you what you want me to say, whether it’s fact or fiction.”
Soviets used the technique and so did the inquisition to get CONFESSIONS they could use in show trials.
Not to get the truth.
didnt work that well to get the truth.
As we all dream of the “ideal” proving ground for whether waterboarding in torture, the rhetorical device of a “demo” is illustrative of how ridiculous the question has become.
It isn’t going to happen of course, and, as amusing as it may be to imagine it in the well of the Senate, it distracts from the central point – it is against the Law.
eCAHNomics @ 103
Steve-AR @ 94
Indeed…until today the oil-price peak was (adjusted for 2007 $) the highest it has ever been in 1980. According to this chart it was $94, not $101.
http://www.inflationdata.com/i….._Table.asp
As well gas prices are at or close to historic all time highs. The only higher period was when gasoline was in extremely high demand due tolimited production levels when automobiles became more widely available.
http://www.fintrend.com/inflat….._chart.htm
That was when autos were very much a luxury and prestige item. Today people are far more dependant on their cars, and drive much longer distances. They expend more of their household budget on gasoline as a consequence. There are often two income earners, and two cars being used in commuting.
newtonusr @ 162
It’s not a “dream.” It’s cagey “what-ifs.” Most of us would like hold on to the idea that Congress is sacrosanct in terms of the law. even with all the corruption.
GSD @ 135
THE ENEMY IS WATCHING! CNN? C-SPAN? FOX? Once, again, we know that the Enemy Terrorists are watching? But where is the enemy? How many are there? What TV cable service do they use? But, wait Osama Bin Laden is the Main Bad Guy and the Bushies and Bin Laden’s vacation together? Could the War on Terror be a phony plot cooked up by the rich American oil men and the rich Saudi oil men? Could their real enemy be the American people?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 73
But wasn’t the SERES training discussed in a post. That was voluntary exposure to torture. The individual who was cited admitted that he had tortured…although those that experience it were volunteers (although they had to submit to the training to be SEALS)…and could terminate the experience on demand.
Mucasey and General Hayden say that they cannot say whether waterboarding IS torture AT ALL…until they understand the whole context of how it is used. They insist upon this! They won’t be convinced otherwise…and Hayden has hinted that waterboarding has already been used for over a dozen suspects.That means that he has learned VERBALLY the conditions of this “technique”.
But surely this full understanding cannot be obtained through the words of people who are apologists of the methods. It can only be fully known by the person who EXPERIENCES waterboarding. That is the FULL context. And Hayden and Mucasey won’t change their minds unless it is personalized for them.
The use of verbal descriptions simply allows those who are applying these methods the ability to ignore the actual effects and depersonalize what is actually being done. And, what’s worse, is that once they get appointed they will conceal the use of this technique under the cloak of “national security”.
cinnamonape — I’m going to say to you what I said to Sander: You have no idea what didn’t make it into public on the thread. I don’t say things without a reason. Be grateful we have mods.
cinnamonape @ 167
Very respectfully, this contention is a flight of fancy for the rhetorical in all of us.
There is no one here or in the Congress, no one, who doesn’t have a good visual on what the practice is. Suggesting that we “do” this guy or that guy is ridiculous.
Go here for your “demo.“
Perhaps this has been asked upthread, but…
So what if he says waterboarding isn’t torture? Does that render the question moot? So what if “Torture” Yu wrote an opinion saying torture is OK? Does that render the question moot?
Ultimately, a US soldier is obligated to follow legal orders and to disobey illegal orders. If a US soldier produces the Yu memo and says “I was told waterboarding was legal, so I did it,” would that be a sufficient legal defense at a war-crimes trial? Is this supposed to be a loophole that somehow eluded the Nazis at Nuremberg?
mui @ 133
How many people confessed that they conspired with the devil and informed onn their neighbors and friends as members of a demonic cult…in the Inquisitions torture chambers?
People will say just about anything they think the inquisitor wants to hear in order to stop the torture. It is only reliable in building up the “evidence” for the preconceived evils the inquisitors already believe in.
Bogus information gained through torture is brokered as “proof” for the “evils” of political opponents, exiles, mythical enemies, made-up threats. Rendition allows others to “torture” and confessions can be used to get an “ally” to crack down on political opponents in exile…or to suggest that legally operating rights groups are infiltrated with terrorists. Torture mixes good information with bad, so that even the torturers who know that they are using the technique for purely Machiavellian purposes can’t distinguish validity.
The information can’t be used in actual investigations, emergency or otherwise (it leads to wild-goose chases at a time where resources can’t afford the effort). More resources are expended on sorting out false information from reliable than is ever gained. It will not save anyone from a true terrorist in an emergency since they will simply “confess” to false information.
The sole purpose of a state doing this is to terrorise its population. To engender fear in opposition groups. To spread false information about the dangers these groups pose through false confessions and “terror alerts”. We need to take a firm stand against the use of torture. It imperils Democracy itself.
Ernest — A US soldier is subject to the UCMJ which expressly forbids conduct such as waterboarding as torture. So if a US soldier has, in fact, participated in said conduct, he or she is in serious trouble.
Which is exactly why the ambiguity from Mukasey is so troubling. A double standard from the nation’s leading law enforcement official for civilian prosecutions is not what people want as the “clean up guy” at the DOJ.
pma @ 139
Right, the only way you stop preaching to the choir is if the preacher and choir have a powerful, convincing thought-proviking exposure of what is involved here…in a way that the media can’t avoid looking at it.
So…what are the DC Police gonna do…shut a voluntary demonstration of the method down because it’s “illegal”? What would THAT say regarding INVOLUNTARY and COERCIVE waterboarding.
Praedor Atrebates @ 157
As I pointed out…if Mucasey said that THAT individual would admit it’s torture…the information can either be true or false. In either case the justification for waterboarding being a legal interrogation method is undermined. If it produces false information its useless…otherwise it is indeed torture. It could of course be BOTH. But I’m taking Mucasey’s argument that it “might not be” to it’s logical conclusion.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 168
Sorry Christy. I thought that the statement you made referred to things that WERE on the thread. To my ear those comments (not the ones that were blocked) were justifiable questions that should be asked the nominees.
My apologies, I didn’t know that your original comment was regarding blocked material. I’m sure that it was probably graphic.
musicsleuth @ 16
Does death in a gas chamber break the skin?
widerness wino @ 42
Some people need to be shown now, because they weren’t paying attention before. You know, sorta like in school when some kids didn’t bother learning anything.
masaccio @ 80
As he is in the throes of the Conservative movement it only makes sense to believe this is either a natural outcome of being part of that group or it is a calculated result which the leaders of that group are inflicting upon it’s members, and more broadly Americans.
They want to prove our current form of government doesn’t work.
They want to overthrow our government in some way. Dubya is a major first effort. Probably the people behind this aren’t going away, so they will try again later.
It’s just a natural part of our society that these people with money who hire their thugs/employees to do their dirty work will also remain as anonymous as possible and will remain like cockroaches to scurry around in the dark shadows when nobody will see them.
newtonusr @ 106
What? Didn’t you hear about their secret Global War on Irony?
Resounding success!
After this terrorism thing they’re going after slapstick.
IrishJim @ 112
It is the government fully embracing and echoing the life of George W. Bush.
It spends like a drunk.
It gets into trouble constantly and they have to buy off their judges, so Dubya can get out of jail (how many DUIs?), stay out of Vietnam (daddy helped), “win” an election (SCOTUS helped), make money from a bankrupt company (Harken bought Bushwa), etc..
If waterboarding isn’t torture, then why would they bother doing it?
I wonder about all those cases where they had soldiers performing a waterboarding on others, to prepare them for being tortured. Were they really just training our guys to waterboard really really well?
Is doing waterboarding for ‘training’ really different than doing it to ‘torture’?
David Addington made it to the number one person on John Dean’s impeachment list.