As Jane and Scarecrow noted yesterday, the Democratic presidential debate on Tuesday night degenerated into a tag-team assault on Hillary Clinton by most of other candidates (and the supposed moderator). But to judge from the press release her campaign put out, Team Clinton is as happy as anyone with how things went:
Despite the best efforts of her six fellow candidates to trip her up, Senator Clinton stood strong and made her case on critical issues like Iran, Iraq and Social Security. She kept her focus on the real target in this election: Republicans and the Bush Administration. Instead of going after the other Democrats, Hillary made the argument for why change is needed and why she has the strength and experience to lead the Democratic Party in its efforts to make that change happen.
. . . The American people are looking for a President who can stand strong and come out ahead under any circumstances.
Last night, once again, that person was Hillary Clinton.
One strong woman.
The campaign press release soon after the debate hit the same notes in summing up media reactions:
The Reviews Are In: 'Strong,' 'Sharp,' 'You Won't See Her Losing Her Cool'
Compare this with something I wrote three weeks ago, musing on Barack Obama's perceived lack of toughness:
I think the reality-based portion of the country has a well-formed sense of what they want the next president to do -- namely, tackle the various problems Dubya has led us into or left untended: Iraq, healthcare insurance, lack of economic growth, global warming, etc. This is challenging work to begin with, made even more so by the gauntlet of Republican mudslinging that will be directed at any Democrat who takes on the tasks.
So the successful Democratic primary candidate, I think, will be the one who best demonstrates the clearest understanding of the challenge, which entails both an understanding of the issues and the unflappability and/or determination to stay the course amid the inevitable partisan firestorm. . . . Dubya has got the country stuck in the ditch in any number of painful ways. So the candidate people are likely to vote for is the one who gives the best sense of being ready to roll up their sleeves and start digging us out.
The word for that isn't toughness or ruthlessness, it's grit. And it's not to be directed at one's opponents for the nomination, but at the substantive problems to be solved.
If you wonder why Hillary is kicking your candidate's ass doing so well in the polls, you might want to give this some thought. Markos is dead wrong when he says today that Clinton hasn't provided "a rationale for her candidacy" -- her rationale is her experience, combined with her ability to take a punch. And that appeals to millions of ordinary Democrats who not only know how much heavy lifting will be needed to get America out of the ditch, but also remember what happened to John Kerry, Howard Dean, and Al Gore.
Conversely, it helps her that her main opponents (Obama and Edward) not only are inexperienced in policy terms, and relative neophytes in facing the GOP sludge machine, they're... well, let's be blunt... pretty boys. It's hard to look at those guys in think "grit," though Barack seems to have taken my advice and given it a try in his latest Iowa ad. I'll have more tomorrow at this time about what else Clinton's opponents can do -- what will, and what won't work in challenging her front-runner status.
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‘allo?
Ola
Quick OT - Senate is voting now on the S-CHIP bill again…
Bush/Cheney must be stopped.
Interesting perspective…
Bama and Edwards need ta get out an clear some brush?
I expect a president to have wisdom and sound policies. I don’t think being a tough street fighter is the main attribute.
If there is a dem sweep, the going will be a lot easier and the repukes will be whining and pissing into the wind.
Forget the MSM. In 09 get the job done. Recind all the BS, investigate the thugs or try them, pull the troops back, apologize to the world and regulate corporate america. Easy.
Hillary is a suck up to the status quo and that is what makes people nervous. Are they using her, or is she using them? Which is worse?
Markos really doesn’t get women’s rights.
I don’t understand why.
Yeah, it takes an empty-headed Breck boy to, when he could chose to sit on his millions and be with his wife who is living out a death sentence, put the country first.
Although thinking about it, it does work with the points made in The Wimp Factor. (Which y’all should go out and read, post haste.)
A good executive can’t have too much “need to be liked” that’s usually what comes across as “weakness”. They need to be able to make tough decisions that are unpopular with their own people and maintain discipline. I suspect that both Obama and Edwards are capable in this way- but they aren’t selling it yet.
The old and new boyz clubs do seem a bit threatened. Look at the women they prefer to have on their panels and as pundits.
The best man for this job — looks like it is a woman.
Although I took this quiz and my candidate is Mike Gravel
Edwards does come across as “soft”. I suspect that he is not- this an adopted courtroom demeanor.
Don’t see Obama as soft- just a little eggheaded sometimes.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 13
this quiz
http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460
diogenes @ 10
You’re missing the point. I’m actually an Edwards supporter (well, leaning toward him, but he’s the only candidate I’ve given money to). So I don’t believe that he’s empty-headed at all.
But if he’s going to run for President, he’s got to understand how he’s going to be perceived and deal with it in some way. Denial is not a solution.
C’mon folks! Sixteen comments in, with this headline and no one has stated the obvious:
As long as it ain’t 60 Grit…
I think you’ve fallen in to the trap of using a right wing frame to feminize democratic men.
From Open Left:
link
Talking about coming together with a criminal political party that is trying to destroy this country is a killer for me. I don’t see how this message could be a good idea in a Dem primary.
But, but, I don’t want to have a beer with Hillary…! ;-)
Dodd’s my candidate according to the quiz. Why can’t I get a candidate who can WIN?
Are you even kidding me? Markos is dead on target.
I’m sorry if you bought into the Hillary is “winning” messaging, but she’s not and never was. It was only talk-talk. The took it to her for her nonsense. It is nonsense. Its like she’s standing up there throwing the same hissy bush throws when someone challenges him! We need Jo Frost to come in here and take the Emperor and Empress in hand… and that’s what Edwards/Obama/Dodd/Kucinich did.
They made very legitimate points with Hillary. Period. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....16149/8513
Legitimate points, no personal attacks, no sexist behavior at all! This is for the President of the United States, not prom King or Queen.
This is kinda looking like a good cop/bad cop routine. Sheeeesh.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 15
I get 63 - Chris Dodd.
Edwards is a (my) pretty boy. I think Obama’s homely. (ducking)
Yeah, surely you remember the ‘Year of the Woman’ and what that poorly understood catastrophe left us with:
Senator Diane ‘I luvs me some Bush’ Feinstein.
Madame Speaker Nancy ‘It’s off the table boys…’ Pelosi
Senator Barbara ‘I luvs me some Lieberman’ Boxer
The idea that Senator Clinton would do anything like what you are implying in terms of our civil rights, workers rights, or The MeatGrinder would be laughable if it were not so gotdamn wrong!
Let’s get away from the gender based defensiveness and give credit where credit is due.
Edwards has a progressive plan for the nation and if you study his speeches carefully you will see that he is framing same in terms of establishing his push-back while he makes his points.
Something Senator Clinton does not do primarily since she plans to use ReThug talking points in the general.
Wake up and smell the corruption!
P J Evans @ 9
This isn’t about “women’s rights”….. at all. You all are doing more damage to women by making this an issue. So is Hillary, btw.
My quiz results go:
Dodd, Obama, Hillary, Edwards, Kucinich
It doesn’t matter which democrat gets the nomination. Whoever it is will be demonized by the MSM. Even if an unknown outsider comes in and is nominated, someone pure as the driven snow, someone with all the answers, they will be chewed up and spit out by all the press for their entire administration. Even if they solve all the problems created by BushCo and the republicans in their first four years, the press will do nothing but talk about how bad they are for america. Count on it.
rwcole @ 21
I got the same result, right after I almost choked to death on my MT. Dew.
When it first changed screens to show my results it started in the middle and I saw Sam Brownback before it changed to Dodd.
I really don’t want to see a President HRC.
And it’s not that I think she isn’t smart (I think she is) and not because she’s too DLC (though I think she is) and not because she couldn’t handle the job or the inevitable VRWC attacks in the general (she clearly can).
It’s two things:
1. The points at which I feel she has provided real leadership in her current capacity as Senator are few and far between (same with Obama), and have had to be forced out of her.
2. She’s a legacy. She is a front runner because she’s been ordained as such by major media and that the Clinton fundraising spigot went from Bill to her. Each of these flow directly from having been First Lady.
Not that she wasn’t a big force in Clinton v1.0 (imagine how much credit you would give Laura Bush in the experience column for doing the “same” job?).
I don’t think the country can take another round of political dynasty and remain viable. Will the Bush name be rehabilitated enough for Jeb to run in 2012 or 2016? Haven’t we had enough cronies for this century? Do we need to bring back a new set of folks all wired up to create a new K Street project from the left?
That’s just too big a risk.
I don’t see Hillary as a leader in the Senate, much less a leader in the Oval Office.
Besides, the Ziocons own Hillary lock, stock, a barrel.
rwcole @ 21
Hey, mine came up Gravel & Kucinich on the quiz, tied for first. Talk about picking losers. But not far behind in a dead heat for 2nd are Edwards, Hillary, Obama.
Just shows you how poor tests are at figuring out what’s important. I mean that to apply to NCLB too.
This is bullshit …winners can be tough and relenting….only a dumb CHIMPSTER is always unrelenting
Swopa @ 16
What do you suggest? The Edwards has to walk a fine line, other wise it looks like he’s beating up on Hillary(Especially in the debates). I think he should attack Rudy and Mitt more.
I feel like I must be the one on crack (see last post) when I read such high praise for a candidate who refuses to answer questions directly and receives high praise for being a strong leader..when her actions support the like of Kyl Lieberman on top of her miserable experience with Bushco and her unforgivable vote for the war in Iraq part three (S and Awe.. among countless other failings.
The only hint I have as to how HC would govern is guess work based on a disappointing past.. All else is projection and blind faith on many peoples parts, imo.
I think the MSM built up HRC and Obama, so that the Neocons can take them down.
I swear, if a Dem, any Dem, makes it to the Presidency on 1/20/09…I will kiss the ground. I’m worried though..I don’t like what W’s doing right now at all. I think we are in real trouble - expecially with the Administrative Orders. That is just so not ok.
Welcome, Swopa. There are extra steel helmets and flack jackets on the counter. Hang in there.
Swopa @ 16
the “soft” candidate is the only one who has consistently challenged HRC on the issues that matter to progressives.
yes, he doesn’t have a codpiece, but he’s not afraid to pull punches and he consistently refuses to submit to the right wing narrative that elections have become.
a tough guy/gal with the wrong policies don’t mean shit
Joe Biden has true grit, but not much media attention. I also think any analysis of what is going on has to take into account the media role, as Howie Klein pointed out recently.
As for Clinton, she wants to have it all ways: project the strong tough image, while appealing to women voters to get even with the perpetrators of past gender-based wrongs by voting for her, and complaining that other candidates who treat her no differently from how any other front runner has ever been treated are “piling on.”
I was recently on the receiving end of some online Iowa polling for Clinton that wanted to know how I responded to blatant appeals to gender. The theme was “you go, girl,” and they wanted to know which slogans, logos and appealing ads featuring women would appeal to this female Iowa Democrat. The images ranged from Elizabeth I to a silhouette that looked like Barbie. I found it offensive. We’re trying to pick a President here, people.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 32
I think they should beat up on the Rs more. Biden’s slam of Rudi was perfect, as was the one about going in a Halloween mask of Romney with 2 faces. If Hillary can run a national campaign in a primary, so can the rest of them. And attacking Rs first waould be far better than not even responding, as was Kerry’s sorry performance the last time.
Any candidate for president who isn’t willing to attack the leader unmercifully doesn’t have any business running in the first place.
Do we need to bring back a new set of folks all wired up to create a new K Street project from the left?
The K Street Project focussed on Congress… and if Pelosi’s spokesman’s response to the question of her appearing at a fundraiser for Al Wynn is any indication, the Dems are gonna be just as bad as the GOP in no time..
I understand what you’re saying. There are many admirable things about Hillary, not the least of which is the campaign that she’s run. I don’t hate her and I hate to pile on.
Unfortunately, there are also some things that I don’t like. I don’t like that she voted for the AUMF, or that she voted for Kyl/Lieberman. I also think she is too calculating, too triangulating, too power hungry.
I don’t know whether she’d cede back any of that ugly power grab that Bush set off. I don’t know if she’d allow Congress to put Habeas Corpus back into effect. I don’t remember them questioning much about the loss of our civil liberties. I don’t know how she feels about signing statements, or the pace of them since the Bush Admin. I don’t trust her in many ways due to some of her past votes in the Senate.
No, I don’t think she’s terrible, but I don’t feel she’d be the best candidate, either. My problem is that I can’t decide which of the other candidates is better; the only one I think totally outclasses all the current candidates is Al Gore, and so far, he’s chosen not to tackle that beast. Democratic politics, that is, not Hillary. I know how he feels about the loss of our civil liberties; he’s talked about it a lot over the last 2 years. I don’t even know if Hillary will go completely as necessary into the global warming mode to take us where we need to be. I’m just so confused!
A.Citizen @ 25
That’s the whole problem of the top three all being Senators(as compared to being governors). Sometimes it is hard to know where an Edwards or Clinton really stand because of all the horse trading and crap that goes on in the Senate. I want to trust that Edwards is more progressive than his Senate stint would let him(especially NC at the time). Would a Hillary presidency be the end of the world? Of course not. I just want more. I have high expectations.
Well sure Hillary wants to have it both ways- that’s how you get elected.
I think Obama has chosen to be the “statesman” in this campaign, and is steering away of being overly critical of other candidates and their views on the issues. If Obama gets too outspoken he has the possibility of being labeled “radical” in the 60’s black radical sense. It could frighten away moderate and more conservative voters. I think this could be why he is playing it calm and cool rather than lighting the fire the press keep threatening him with.
Lieberman just came out in favor of Mukasey urging the Senate to accept him (per Josh Marshall).
I hate that mole more than anyone in politics.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 13
I get Gravel on a number of quizzes. If you thought Edwards was obscure to the MSM…!!
I took the quiz and even though I chose
“favor immediate and orderly withdrawal of U.S. troops” from Iraq, the results say I disagree with both Edwards and Dodd.
Where is the disagreement?
I also think any analysis of what is going on has to take into account the media role, as Howie Klein pointed out recently.
Hey Susan, I love Howie, but he didn’t write that.
I did. :-)
Few sitting senators have ever won the presidency- their voting record becomes an anchor and they eventually sink into the depths.
It doesn’t take a genius to mine a voting record for atrocities.
rwcole @ 43
One of those Catch-22 things-we don’t want a candidate who wants to get elected.
CAHN
Hey- I think you hit on it!!!
More calls to make on Monday:
per TPM
Aaaaagh! **banging head on desk**
I am so sick & tired of polls asking us to tell them what would appeal to us so they can sell themselves better. I am so sick & tired of incumbents helping other incumbents simply because they are incumbent. I am so sick & tired of not being heard.
Develop plans. Care about your country. Get angry. Stand for something - anything. Then we’ll talk.
rwcole @ 50
Curtsying modestly.
why is it that people complain about the sight of these men piling on the front running woman in the debate? hillary is supposedly so tough- no one would blink an eye if she was a man, and the others pointed their attention at her… does her gender give her immunity for questioning some of her bullshit positions? the fact that the mainstream media gives her so much coverage, and the fact that she’s a front runner, and that she has positions that gives progressives a stomachache is plenty of reason to focus any and all attention on her
p.lukasiak @ 49
I’m sorry. It was brilliant though, so am I forgiven? 8~)
mark @ 46
And I am REALLY sick & tired of Joe Lieberman.
A.Citizen @ 25
I’m thankful A Citizen said what I wanted to say, but am too tired to spell out to the continuously disappointingly politically inexperienced left blogosphere.
And, while I’m at it, folks, Primaries, Primaries, Primaries: that’s where you make change in a system where the seats are guaranteed by and for the political parties!!!
I’ve played the game passionately, been the official dem candidate for CA leg, been on Exec Committee of CA Dem Party, etc., and I’ve dropped out because too many lefties just don’t get it, like Atrios avowing a couple years back, Oh, I don’t get involved in primaries…
Folks, the game is played among really passionate people, many quite psychologically screwed up, whoring for the MONEY that the system works on; the only offensive strategy, short of a Marx-ian catastrophe, is grass roots upsetting incumbents in primaries.
OK, got to go to bed, cuz I’m old and tired…
eCAHNomics @ 38:
I agree. I like a lot of what Edwards has to say. Hopefully he’ll pick up the attacks on Rudy. He can’t be timid(like he was in the debates versus Darth Vader).
absolutely (but only because you called it brilliant) ;-)
God… I just found out I really am for Dodd…I’m going to send him some more money just so he can make some “NOISE”!
eCAHNomics @ 51
I don’t know why Feingold hasn’t made a statement, but I’ll bet that he’ll vote against Mukasey.
PS - My 54 was directed at politicians, just in case that wasn’t clear. I guess my rant got away from me a bit!
rwcole @ 52
i think that’s what sunk kerry in ‘04. he seemed to be grooming himself his whole adult life for a presidential run…
p.lukasiak @ 61
I’ve been listening to candidates in Iowa for months and have become a completely shameless panderer by osmosis. I think I went over the edge when Dodd started talking about all the comestibles you can put on a stick at the Iowa State Fair.
eCAHNomics @ 49
It’s a real paradox isn’t. As I have said before, I think the biggest political learning experience for Hillary was watching Bill become the youngest ex-governor in history, in 1980. He got too far ahead of the electorate an was hammered.
JimmyJeff @ 57
If you have noticed, I think even Atrios has changed his tune. Ned Lamont was the start. Donna Edwards and Mark Pera are the next step!! Al Wynn and Lipinski better enjoy their last year in Congress.
LHP is upstairs talking about immunity…
Hey, did FDL change so as to automatically eliminate ziggarauts? I loved zigs. I miss them.
eCAHNomics @ 71
What?
Steve-AR @ 68
I thought it was the car-tax thingy that hammered Bill.
I was leaning toward the two male Dem’s until the debate. Then Russert asked her a question which deliberately falsified Clinton’s past answers on Social Security, and said he was doing so because those past answers raised questions about “her” credibility. Of course one of those past questions was asked by Russert himself! Both Edward’s and Obama were then asked to participate in this fraud which they willingly did. I am now leaning to Clinton. Russert has zero credibility.
OT, but I’m so appalled I have to post about Short Ride’s response to criticism of Kyl-Lieberman (viat TPM):
Really, Joe, “ample evidence”? Perhaps you could share some of that with the American people before asking us to believe it. I haven’t heard of any “evidence” other than a dog-and-pony show in Iraq with military briefers who didn’t even want their names used. I would think that after the debacle of the “evidence” for the Iraq War, warmongers would be ashamed to refer to The Big Lie as “evidence,” but of course, Joe has no shame.
You know how you “get over” distrust, Joe? The first step is for the guy you distrust to stop lying to you and deceiving you. Otherwise it’s not called “getting over it.” It’s called “being a sucker.”
The American people have made it pretty damn clear they don’t want any more of that.
Scarecrow @ 72
Where people keep hitting quote on comments, which them have increasing number of quotes, i.e. indents. Ooops, make that ziggurats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat
Pachacutec @ 18
No, I’m facing up to the fact of how they come across. The GOP builds these frames for a reason; they know what factors into people’s decision-making. Knowing what frames one is vulnerable to is an important part of defeating them.
I have a great deal of respect for Hillary Clinton. TPM Horse’s Mouth has posted an exchange with Russert who was questioning her during her Senate campaign of 2000 — over her husband’s infidelity. She answered this tactless question with great aplomb and grace.
Her message is about restoring fiscal sanity, strengthening the middle class, health care for all, diplomacy and rebuilding America’s image in the world. I’ve heard her speak several times, listened to the debates. I find it unnerving and bewildering that some members of the blogosphere attack her for lack of clarity. She’s been quite clear…certainly as clear or clearer than her opponents.
The all-out attack on her is disturbing. I would much rather see the candidates target the real enemy — Bush and an anti-Constitution, anti-American GOP, who have done more than I ever dreamed possible to destroy this nation and polarize the country.
This is why people hate politics. The media, of course, is not only complicit, but at times seems to drive the polarizing rhetoric and triviality of the national dialogue.
Here, here’s your “True Grit”…… John Wayne was an ACTOR. We don’t want an actor. He was a republican and today represents the macho cowboy mentality of the pubbies. Here’s your true grit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EUP9rOLf30
Nice movie though and locations to die for ;-)
Swopa, your messaging in your post is that Hillary had, strength, True Grit, rah rah, and thos “pretty boys” are just so much fluffery. Its sexist to say that. Hillary hasn’t kicked anyone’s ass yet. I doubt she will in the voting. :D
Conversely, it helps her that her main opponents (Obama and Edward) not only are inexperienced in policy terms, and relative neophytes in facing the GOP sludge machine, they’re… well, let’s be blunt… pretty boys.
to be fair to edwards hasn’t he faced a southern GOP machine?
the man has lost a child.
he’s a ‘pretty boy?’
bah humbug.
HillA*P*Cry
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 69
Do not forget that the ‘Year of the Woman’ took place prior to the rise of Free Left Blogistan. Things are different now and we know we can change the ground rules. Not to say it will happen this cycle or next but we are on our way!
Read Paul Rosenberg’s posts on this at OpenLeft. And watch for mine on ‘political fitness spaces’ and how we can change them so that the evolutionary rules for success as a politician select for progressives.
Not Al Wynn or The Hill.
listen- I didn’t read the earlir postings so forgive me if I am repeating. However- I have to try and point something out- The ripping and gouging and smearing of Hillary is exactly what the goopers want to see. Once again, they are shaping the discussion. Given the fact that the MSM is going to want the “Catfights”- Hillary and the rest of the fools should focus solely on the issues that define the dems and point out the actions of the goopers! Keep the focus on the differences between the dems and the goopers! Screw the MSM and the wingnuts. Every single attack item will be brought back during the election campaign. God knows that there is enough to go after them with.
Her message is about restoring fiscal sanity, strengthening the middle class, health care for all, diplomacy and rebuilding America’s image in the world. I’ve heard her speak several times, listened to the debates. I find it unnerving and bewildering that some members of the blogosphere attack her for lack of clarity. She’s been quite clear…certainly as clear or clearer than her opponents.
and bombing the living bejesus out of every iraqui and iranian daring to eat figs and dates and drink mint tea and not pull up to a drivethrough and ask to be supersized
Swopa, with all due respect, my view is that framing things in terms of “grit” (and how IS that different from toughness?) is a male frame.
Or maybe, the current version of “a guy I’d like to have a beer with” = “I want someone with true grit” intended to impact the low information voter.
reid pelosi clinton blah blah blah.
listen to an old phil och’s album about ‘liberals.’
Sorry but I don’t agree the rationale that one is ready to be prez because they can take a punch. I understand all of this poor Hillary rhetoric from well known bloggers, but it doesn’t fly with me. I don’t trust her, and I think the MSM have been worthless as usual,but they may be no other way for people to take notice that you really can’t trust Hillary, other than really putting her on the defensive. By the way, just because her campaign put out that stoopid spin, doesn’t mean it is TRUE!She and Big dog threw the progressives under the bus before, she will do it again!
Is she not the perceived front runner? Did anyone not raise a legitimate criticism? Hello.
As for the “POLLS”…I don’t believe them either.
Here’s Doug Ireland’s Obama(rama) Wrap-Up
So it’s sexism when somebody attacks the front runner who is female, or uses coded mysogynist words like “shooting daggers” but not homophobia to say that the problem with the contenders is that they are “pretty boys?”
Please, if you want CRH to win because she is a woman, that’s great! Just spare us the hypocrisy and don’t tell the rest of us that we’re assholes because we disagree with you.
And my L.A. Times op-ed two cents on the highly UNmagic Negro.
Valley Girl @ 84
Try re-reading the two sentences before the one that mentions “grit.” ;-)
runar @ 91
Precisely!
coral @ 78
So you do want to talk more about Bill Clinton’s dick?
Because, I really don’t. This is the constant topic we face again. (Thank you Hillary). Could we please, as country, stop giving them bright shiney objects to distract from the issues at hand. Hillary’s very presence as a “candidate” gives them re-hash rights. Oh, please can we move along?
Swopa @ 93
I read that before. Not so much of a distinction in my mind. I guess we differ on that.
And, the other part of my comment?
David Ehrenstein @ 90
David, thanks for the link. I also read your LA Times piece (posted here in the comments).
Said to some one that I never trusted Obama, and then tried to figure out why. Best I can come up with so far is that he’s too much in love with his own charisma. Love to hear your opinion on that.
Last night the punditocracy adjusted their puny jockstraps and beat up a girl.
bill clinton/al gore/ madeleine albright:
UNESCO estimates: 350,000 children dead due to U.S. enforcement of *U.N.* sanctions on Iraq.
Clinton big proponent of ‘free trade’ i.e. slave labour in the 3rd world and lost jobs here.
Hillary will be just as tough.
I am sometimes astounded by how far right-wing American ‘liberalism’ actually is-
Just wondering, but after the past few days, I seem to be getting a subliminal message that FDL is endorsing Hillary, because the poor thing has been so abused by the boys.
Just wondering?
If I wanted a main street conservative, I’d register gooper. No thanks to Hillary. I’ll support my second tier guy and sleep well doing it.
Obama may well be too much in love with his own charaisma. Or something.
As I’ve said previously he’s primarily a figure of fantasy. Somone onto which we are invited to project dreams.
Valley Girl @ 85
Well, low information voter’s votes count, too.
As I noted in a comment above, I am not a Hillary supporter; I’m actually leaning strongly toward Edwards. But the real world is one in which she is leading the Democratic race and Edwards is (unfairly) perceived as a “pretty boy.” (Even worse, it’s one where Bush is president.)
If I’m not allowed to describe why the real world is how it is because it conflicts with the world as you would like it to be, then you might as well skip to the next post.
Franco @ 99
I was wondering that too. I came to the rational conclusion that there is no plan to endorse a candidate. I think it’s a complicated issue (how women are treated in politics) so I am planning to step back and wait and see what happens at FDL.
Disclosure: I am female in a very male-oriented work situation, and I am not a supporter of Hillary.
The question is not about whether it is fair to question a front runner. The question is whether two Democrats should aid a lyinging member of the press corps who is distorting the past statements of the frontrunner in order to establish a meme for the R’s that she lacks credibility.
Gawd that’s some shallow stuff.
First we have the wingers basing their foreign policy on the TeeVee show “24″ and now Swopa wants to choose the next President based on “True Grit”. We’ve had enough Grit, thank you.
Hillary looked terrible on the debate and all you’ve got to show to back up your cheerleading is campaign press releases. Nice try.
Swopa… “I’m actually leaning strongly towards Edwards”.
The messaging in your post does not support that. Your post’s messaging supports Jane and Scarecrow’s strong leaning towards Hillary.
The lying press corps is a world unto itself. It has its own idea of what’s supposed to be important and the rabble (us) haven’t been asked for our opinion. We’re TOLD what it’s supposed to be.
valleygirl@104
I think I am going to follow your lead and take a step back from this.
My disclosure, homosexual male, not a Hillary supporter, leaning towards Edwards.
I’m leaning towards not voting at all.
David Ehrenstein @ 109
I have to vote, I live in Florida and I will be damed if I let the ReTHUGS take this state again!
David Ehrenstein @ 101
David- thanks for that link. Just read. Most excellent.
And, OT, but have you seen the news that Pelosi is doing a fund-raiser for Al Wynn? And that a collection of sites including DWT, FDL etc. are doing a fundraiser for Donna Edwards?
I trust you know about the Wynn/ Edwards race.
I would rather have a President who’s “soft” and DOES THE RIGHT THING than one who’s “tough” and will get us into a war in order to prove how tough she is. My god there has been a load of bollocks on this site lately.
As I said at Big Orange, I was an Obama supporter until I just decided I was tired of waiting for him to live up to his potential. He still has it as far as I can see, but this whole McClurkin mess just tells me I’ll be waiting for him through another presidential cycle. And that’s just can’t happen. Plus this going after Hillary kinda cracks me up, in an “is that all you got” kind of way.
FWIW I support him for all sorts of big reasons, and for a strongly felt personal one — like him, my daughter is bi-racial. And I would like nothing better than for her to grow up just accepting as fact that her president is African American and white, just like her.
But I’m ready to commit my money, my time, my energy and my hopes and dreams to a candidate NOW, one who can win this thing and get our country and this world on some sort of semblance of the right track again. I can’t keep those hopes at bay any longer, waiting for Obama to start being audacious. Add that to the fact that in this recent debate, I actually found myself rooting for Hillary, especially as the pack piled on.
So perhaps my daughter will have to grow up accepting as fact that a woman can be president. Which is also fine by me.
Swopa @ 102
Sadly, FDL now has dKos ‘Frontpages disease’ a peculiar form of delusion where the one infected believes that he/she are in possession of the whole truth on a particular issue.
Politics, like any human activity, does not admit of one perfect truth so, if you would, allow us mere ‘comments’ to disagree and if needed….
Call bullshit.
And I’ve already been TR’d at dKos for this so don’t bother to jump up and down with your hair on fire.
We all have bad days.
David Ehrenstein @ 109
I assume you mean in the Presidential race. Their are lots of other things you can do to help build the progressive movement in this country and there are lots of good progressive candidates to help.
Otherwise….
The Fascistii win.
Myrtle June @ 106
Well, maybe you’d like this post of mine better.
Politics is local.
Myrtle June @ 26
I totally agree.
Swopa @ 117
Much better!
David Ehrenstein @ 118
David, was that a response to my query about the Wynn/ Edwards race?
Is Markos taking money from Obama or anyone else this election cycle?
Valley Girl @ 104
I’ve been feeling that way too. I too am a female (strong feminist) working in a male oriented company and I am not supporting Hilliary in the primary. As a liberal I think Edwards is a much better candidate. However, if Hilliary were the nominee I would support her in the general election.
Patty Morlan- thanks for the support. I will choose my primary candidate based on their views, not on the xx or xy factor. Edwards is also my choice.
jess @ 121
Markos has secretly endorsed Hillary.
Swopa @ 16
I look at it a different way. I can remember friends saying after 9/11, “I voted for Gore, but I’m glad we got Bush.” We see how well that worked out.
I’m looking for someone with a strong ethical base and moral compass, not the faux machismo that Bush made fashionable.
I didn’t fall for the tough guy BS the last time, and I won’t this time, either. I hope a majority of voters join me.
Just a general response.
The trouble is this entire culture feeds on false machismo.
Marion Morrison never fought in a war. He didn’t have to. He was John Wayne.
David Ehrenstein @ 127
Thanks, David. I am outraged at Pelosi’s fundraiser on behalf of Wynn. Donna Edwards is a great candidate, imo.
diogenes @ 126
I agree; that’s why I liked Edwards’ national-security speech in September so much.
Ahh, but you’ve all smoked me out now — it was just a feint to cover my private (until now!) Hillary-worship. :-/
What is with the Social Security non-sense? SS was a real loser and Bush lost a lot of cred when we beat back privatization in 05. Why are Dem candidates bringing the SS issue back? It is a loser!
Swopa @ 117
Yes, the post on your site is better. More clear where you’re coming from for sure. :-)
I have to stand by my statment on your messaging in the post on this site though. I think we’ll just have to not agree on that. It happens. :-)
I have a question for anyone with a transcript of the debate:
Regarding this strong woman who wants to keep the focus on the real target in this election: republicans and the Bush administration;
Did she voluntarily mention the word Iraq, that is, without one of the other candidates bringing it up first?
Because if she didn’t, then claiming that she wants to keep the focus on the republicans and the Bush administration, is complete and utter nonsense.
Call your next case.
BTW, anyone who IS claiming it, is shaving points for bushCo like the most corrupt NBA team that ever existed.
eCAHNomics @ 52
Republican candidates say they “will do anything” to get elected. And, when they’re president they are consistent and “do anything” like torture.
Democrats won’t “do anything”. They have higher standards. They want to focus on what’s really important in the race. We’re past race baiting and hopefully past gender issues and focus on policies, character, experience, voting records and things like that.
Clinton’s supporters want it both ways; they want us to believe how “tough” she is, and at the same time, when we, or anyone else, starts asking the reality-based questions about her position(s) on Iraq, and about her refusal to apologize for helping to create the debacle, and about the money she’s taken from A*P*C, and about the money she’s taken from defense contractors who are profiting from the war, and about her cozy relationship with Rupert Murdoch, etc., etc., then they shreik that she’s a victim of dog-piling.
Not good.
Incidentally, if she had “true grit”, then a long time ago, she would have courageously admitted what a mistake she made in voting to authorize the invasion.
As John Edwards has done.
Repeatedly.
David Ehrenstein @ 98
“A girl”?
I thought Hillary was a candidate for the presidency of The United States of America.
Maybe if she was really capable she could’ve answered some questions forth-rightly without flip-flopping all over the stage.
Maybe it’s just the fact that despite all her adoring fans the truth of her candidacy is easily seen in her flip-floppery.
It’s got to be a shock to her supporters to realize she actually isn’t all she’s cracked up to be.
Yeah, Swopa, hang in there. :o)
You put up a post flacking for Clinton, on one of the best progressive sites going. A site on which 19 days ago,
2309 people voted, and almost a thousand of them (998) picked John Edwards. :o)
236 of them picked Hillary Clinton.
Any of her supporters want to tell us again how well she’s going to do in red-state America, if she wins the election? :o)
Excuse me; nomination.
Really, the best thing about Senator Clinton is that she’s been pre-SwiftBoated, the recipient of all the mud the right can sling at her right from the get-go in 1992.
So really, there’s nothing else they can throw at her that hasn’t already been thrown.
Looks like Karl Rove’s once full-quiver’s running on empty.
tanbark @ 139
FYI, I was one of the 998 who voted for Edwards in that poll.
I’m waaay to the left of the Senator — but the more sexist crap I hear, particularly from some “progressives,” the more I want to whip out my checkbook.
Spare me the “flip-flop” soundbite smear. It’s really old.
One of the things that has really turned me off about Clinton, is that the beltway democrats, instead of letting us have a fair run at the primaries, are busting their tails to rig the whole process in her favor.
That’s why they’re trying to get the New Hampshire primary moved up ahead of the Iowa primary.
New Hampshire is (supposedly) a “safe” state for her, while Iowa is very much in play. If they can show a “win” before Iowa, then, just like on here, the Clintonistas can shreik “UNITY!” at the top of their lungs, and claim that she’s got it won, in the hope that Iowa voters will buy it, and that will give them two in a row.
As I’ve been saying for a lonnng time; Clinton has to win the nomination very quickly, or she will not win it at all. Every day that the nominating process drags on means that Iraq will increasingly be entering into the primary equation with the same impact that it’s going have in the general; and for Clinton, that will be a disaster.
She simply cannot stand it. With the war looming ever larger, when people begin questioning her about the fact that, just like Bush, she has never recanted, never apologized, for her part in the debacle, going into a snit and claiming that the question is not relevant will get her hammered.
Which situation, coincidentally, is EXACTLY the same bind in which the republicans will find themselves. Just like Hillary, they want the “I” word stricken from the dictionary.
But it’s not going away, and the best Bush and Clinton can hope for is that it won’t get much worse in the next year, which still leaves them both hanging on to a flaming bag of shit.
Is that the kind of candidate we want?
“…there’s nothing else they can throw at her that hasn’t already been thrown…”
What that statement, uhhh…eludes…is the simple fact that, with Hillary Clinton, the GOP doesn’t NEED issues.
Mid-election, their candidate could climb up on the debating podium, drop trou, and then moon her, and american conservatives would say:
“Excellent point! Whatcha think about THAT, Sen. Clinton.”
The reason many democrats don’t want her to be the candidate is that the republicans won’t HAVE to run a smart, issue-oriented, campaign to beat her. The instant she makes an acceptance speech, Rudy Giuliani will be halfway to the white house at full sprint.
The notion that she can pull conservative and independent votes is just road-apple logic. It aint gonna happen.
Conversely, in this election, John Edwards triggers nothing like that visceral reaction from many republicans and independents.
Clinton should be campaigning in the primaries wearing a sandwich board that says:
“Honk if you think the Supreme Court should get to decide ANOTHER election.”
When I look at Hillary, I don’t see “grit.” I see political gears grinding. I see someone who votes to authorize the use of military force in Iraq because it was calculated to be politically advantageous, and who even now — five long, hard, bloody and painful years later — won’t say it was a “mistake,” because focus groups and handlers say that would be politically disadvantageous. I see a second-rate Bill Clinton. And Bill Clinton was a good president rather than a great president in part because he couldn’t help focusing on the politics rather than deciding what he wanted to get done and working to do that. Eight years of peace and prosperity is no small thing, but school uniforms and welfare reform won’t be much of a legacy fifty years out. When you say “eyes on the prize,” Bill thought “re-election,” and I’m afraid Hillary thinks that same way. Her answer on drivers’ licenses for illegal aliens only shone a spotlight on that.
Hubris; I have a sexist question for you:
Do you think that invading Iraq was a mistake?
Here’s some real “grit”:
Barack Obama’s remarks delivered on 26 October 2002 in Chicago at Federal Plaza at an anti Iraq war rally organized by the ANSWER coalition.
“Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.
The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.
I don’t oppose all wars.
My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton’s army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.
I don’t oppose all wars.
After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration’s pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.
I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.
What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.
That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.
He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.
So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.
Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.
The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.”
tanbark @ 136
I’d respect that if the questions were reality-based. They’re not.
They’re paranoia-based and anti-establishmentarian kneejerkery, and they mostly contain conservative dreams of a status quo world of the past. There’s no courage or imagination in the objections to Hillary.
Voters actually first want to get rid of the Bush/Cheney legacy pile o’ merde, the details are secondary. Obama and Edwards come up short on that, it’s that simple. They’re running on minor fears (in the big picture) that Clinton hasn’t put to rest and pretending to have a more perfect and realistic program (which isn’t selling).
TWC; that was a hell of a good speech. I’ve never seen it before. Obama just went up a notch; make that TWO notches, in my estimation.
Edwards voted for it, so all he CAN do is apologize for it, and try to somehow salvage something from the shitmire.
Anybody hearing anything about Iraq from Clinton lately?
Barf bag, stat!
CD; so you don’t think asking a candidate who has given bush the support for the quagmire that Clinton has given him; if she now thinks that was a mistake, is reality-based?
Asking her about her schmoozing with AIPAC, at the top of whose agenda is helping bush gin up a war with Iran, isn’t reality-based?
Asking her how she plans to take advantage of the HUGE issue of Iraq in the general election, when she won’t even state flatly that it WAS a mistake, isn’t reality-based?
Asking her about her relationship with Rupert Murdoch isn’t reality-based?
Pointing out the contributions she’s received from defense contractors isn’t reality-based?
Pointing out that, because republicans and conservatives hate her with a passion, and are very likely to turn out in droves to vote to keep her out of the white house, makes her electability an important issue, isn’t reality-based?
Tanbark, it should be required reading for every 10th grade civics class.
There is a lot of petty dissembling and shading required of politicians — but there are some issues and moments when it is important to stand up and be counted. The others voted for the war, and Obama stood up and said that. If you think that the Iraq war should be an issue in the 2008 presidential campaign, keep that in mind.
Swopa; good job. Me, too! :o)
Bit of a surprise, were it not? :o)
And, are you going to treat us to a lengthy and admiring thread about Edwards, in which you talk about his true grit, for having the courage and common decency to UNEQUIVOCALLY apologize for helping george bush invade Iraq?
TWC, I do, and will, keep it in mind, for sure. :o)
And, one of the mistakes that the Clinton supporters make is in assuming that Iraq is going to evaporate by the time we get into the thick of the campaign, and somehow magically become LESS of an issue, instead of more of one.
That is NOT a hoss on which I would like to bet, by nominating Clinton, and I would think, neither would you. :o)
No Blood for Hubris @ 143
Oh. Progressives believe that a woman needs to be molly coddled and can’t stand up for herself in a debate without playing the victim card? Oh dear. This is bad. I didn’t know that. I thought progressives wanted to … you know…. progress.
Hillary Clinton has a LOT of experience taking money from Big Business interests and saying what ever you want to hear.
Hillary will give us more war ,less Freedom and continue down the same path as Bush, Reagan. Less Freedom, Less money and more corruption.
Hillary supporters are like Bush supporters…they act like its a spoting event and “My Team at all costs’ is the only thing that matters.
Bill sold out to the big media with his 1996 com act. He gave Communist China Most Favored Nation Status and did nothing to help restore the Constitution and American Freedom to pre-Nixon Levels.
Hillary is just the other side of corporate politics from Bush.
For some reason, despite her political posturing, I trust Hillary. I have faith that her ultimate intentions are good and that she has the ability and determination to implement at least some of the changes we need, and to repair at least some of the severe damage that has been done. I suppose that faith is not necessarily rationale. But it’s based on what I’ve seen of the world. One of the most (unfairly) maligned persons in the past couple of decades lives on to fight another day, every day. I have to admire that kind of strength.
I don’t have the same confidence in any of the other electable candidates
At a visceral level, I simply don’t trust Edwards regardless of what he says, or how much I might agree with what comes out of his mouth these days.
Obama is highly intelligent and probably has good intentions, but I seriously doubt that he has the political will/ability to survive.
ms clinton represents the us military, inc. a vote for her is a vote for continuing war.
mr kucinich is my choice.
peas!
No Blood for Hubris @ 141
Those are not considerations of any substantive value when it comes to governing, changing a hopelessly corrupted system and restoring the constitution and restoring the balance between the presidency, the judiciary and Congress . . . . for a street fight, well, yeah, fine.
I’m looking for a change agent, I believe HRC has consistently proven she is looking for her status quo. And her backers, financiers, and her campaign platforms pretty much are proof of it.
The debate, which in a primary IS supposed to be knock down and drag out, was also evidence of her lacking any real proclivities for change. Especially with regards to Iraq, Iran, and foreign interventionism. Her healthcare COVERAGE package is for the insurance companies, and NOT for GUARENTEED HEALTHCARE for the masses and uninsured.
If you support HRC for the primary DEM candidate, you support the existing corporatist and war making machine and you are against free healthcare, free education and basic civil rights for the masses . . . . it’s pretty simple.
I do love all the posturing, though. It’s fun to read.
Her “experience”? She’s been in the senate for like 7 years. She was First Lady for 8 years — does that actually count?? I don’t get it. Biden and Dodd have been in the Senate my whole life. She’s one of the greenest candidates up there.
And even if she was as experienced as the media pretends her to be, that can’t be the only reason to seek the presidency.
I personally try to avoid all right-wing frames of Democratic candidates whever possible, though it’s not always. But the hyper-masculinization of commnder codpiece and Shooter is made easier when we feminize ours and call the ‘pretty boyz.’
I probably would personally try to find another way to put it.
Well said, Swopa. I think I agree with this solely because of her “right wing conspiracy” statement, the only chink in her persona I’ve witnessed. To put it bluntly, I think Clinton is strong and Edwards and Obama are weak, even if relatively more enlightened.
It’s a measure of how inoperative democracy is that the best we can do, after casting our votes in the primaries against the ultimate winner, Clinton, is to hope that she has a “secret plan” to end the war and the strength to do it. But she’s probably just the ultimate Lucy.
That’s right Jane. John Edwards is “The Breck Girl.”
REAL men wear women’s panties and offer hustlers a thousand dollars to fuck them without a condom.
If Hillary Clinton is so tough, then why is the playing the “Oh, poor me, beating beaten up by those mean boys” card? Hell, if she’s going to feel put upon when genteel men like John Edwards and Barack Obama dare to question her, what the hell is she going to do with Rudy Giuliani?
Sorry — she can’t have it both ways.
Yeah she’s real tough with her back and forth on drivers licenses. “i’m running on my White House experience, but you can’t review the documents” Real tough Hillary.
Tanbark where are you at? It’s Hillary again. Pretending she represents us and therefore deserves our support and stuff.
People here is her record;
Hillary supported Joe “F*ck the progressives” Liebermann
Supported Liebermann-Kyl
Vote for the war on Iraq
Supports nuking Iran
Bought and paid for by A*PAC, BigPHARMA and defence contractors
Any one here supports these?
One more thing, the darling of Rupert “Faux-News” Murdoch..
I find it difficult to vote for Clinton (or for Edwards or for Dodd) after their vote to authorize the President to go to war in Iraq. Voting against a war of aggression to overthrow a government was not a close call, and the disastrous aftermath should not have been a complete surprise. It is hard for me to imagine voting for someone for the highest office who had either the poor judgement or character to support the invasion.
That said, the more I see of Clinton, the more I like her. Even incidents like this which are supposed to be her mistakes increase my opinion of her. If it weren’t for that one vote, I’d support her now without hesitation. I still may end up being convinced.