As Jane and Scarecrow noted yesterday, the Democratic presidential debate on Tuesday night degenerated into a tag-team assault on Hillary Clinton by most of other candidates (and the supposed moderator). But to judge from the press release her campaign put out, Team Clinton is as happy as anyone with how things went:
Despite the best efforts of her six fellow candidates to trip her up, Senator Clinton stood strong and made her case on critical issues like Iran, Iraq and Social Security. She kept her focus on the real target in this election: Republicans and the Bush Administration. Instead of going after the other Democrats, Hillary made the argument for why change is needed and why she has the strength and experience to lead the Democratic Party in its efforts to make that change happen.
. . . The American people are looking for a President who can stand strong and come out ahead under any circumstances.
Last night, once again, that person was Hillary Clinton.
One strong woman.
The campaign press release soon after the debate hit the same notes in summing up media reactions:
The Reviews Are In: 'Strong,' 'Sharp,' 'You Won't See Her Losing Her Cool'
Compare this with something I wrote three weeks ago, musing on Barack Obama's perceived lack of toughness:
I think the reality-based portion of the country has a well-formed sense of what they want the next president to do -- namely, tackle the various problems Dubya has led us into or left untended: Iraq, healthcare insurance, lack of economic growth, global warming, etc. This is challenging work to begin with, made even more so by the gauntlet of Republican mudslinging that will be directed at any Democrat who takes on the tasks.
So the successful Democratic primary candidate, I think, will be the one who best demonstrates the clearest understanding of the challenge, which entails both an understanding of the issues and the unflappability and/or determination to stay the course amid the inevitable partisan firestorm. . . . Dubya has got the country stuck in the ditch in any number of painful ways. So the candidate people are likely to vote for is the one who gives the best sense of being ready to roll up their sleeves and start digging us out.
The word for that isn't toughness or ruthlessness, it's grit. And it's not to be directed at one's opponents for the nomination, but at the substantive problems to be solved.
If you wonder why Hillary is kicking your candidate's ass doing so well in the polls, you might want to give this some thought. Markos is dead wrong when he says today that Clinton hasn't provided "a rationale for her candidacy" -- her rationale is her experience, combined with her ability to take a punch. And that appeals to millions of ordinary Democrats who not only know how much heavy lifting will be needed to get America out of the ditch, but also remember what happened to John Kerry, Howard Dean, and Al Gore.
Conversely, it helps her that her main opponents (Obama and Edward) not only are inexperienced in policy terms, and relative neophytes in facing the GOP sludge machine, they're... well, let's be blunt... pretty boys. It's hard to look at those guys in think "grit," though Barack seems to have taken my advice and given it a try in his latest Iowa ad. I'll have more tomorrow at this time about what else Clinton's opponents can do -- what will, and what won't work in challenging her front-runner status.
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Quick OT - Senate is voting now on the S-CHIP bill again…
Bush/Cheney must be stopped.
Interesting perspective…
Bama and Edwards need ta get out an clear some brush?
I expect a president to have wisdom and sound policies. I don’t think being a tough street fighter is the main attribute.
If there is a dem sweep, the going will be a lot easier and the repukes will be whining and pissing into the wind.
Forget the MSM. In 09 get the job done. Recind all the BS, investigate the thugs or try them, pull the troops back, apologize to the world and regulate corporate america. Easy.
Hillary is a suck up to the status quo and that is what makes people nervous. Are they using her, or is she using them? Which is worse?
Markos really doesn’t get women’s rights.
I don’t understand why.
Yeah, it takes an empty-headed Breck boy to, when he could chose to sit on his millions and be with his wife who is living out a death sentence, put the country first.
Although thinking about it, it does work with the points made in The Wimp Factor. (Which y’all should go out and read, post haste.)
A good executive can’t have too much “need to be liked” that’s usually what comes across as “weakness”. They need to be able to make tough decisions that are unpopular with their own people and maintain discipline. I suspect that both Obama and Edwards are capable in this way- but they aren’t selling it yet.
The old and new boyz clubs do seem a bit threatened. Look at the women they prefer to have on their panels and as pundits.
The best man for this job — looks like it is a woman.
Although I took this quiz and my candidate is Mike Gravel
Edwards does come across as “soft”. I suspect that he is not- this an adopted courtroom demeanor.
Don’t see Obama as soft- just a little eggheaded sometimes.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 13
this quiz
http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460
diogenes @ 10
You’re missing the point. I’m actually an Edwards supporter (well, leaning toward him, but he’s the only candidate I’ve given money to). So I don’t believe that he’s empty-headed at all.
But if he’s going to run for President, he’s got to understand how he’s going to be perceived and deal with it in some way. Denial is not a solution.
C’mon folks! Sixteen comments in, with this headline and no one has stated the obvious:
As long as it ain’t 60 Grit…
I think you’ve fallen in to the trap of using a right wing frame to feminize democratic men.
From Open Left:
link
Talking about coming together with a criminal political party that is trying to destroy this country is a killer for me. I don’t see how this message could be a good idea in a Dem primary.
But, but, I don’t want to have a beer with Hillary…! ;-)
Dodd’s my candidate according to the quiz. Why can’t I get a candidate who can WIN?
Are you even kidding me? Markos is dead on target.
I’m sorry if you bought into the Hillary is “winning” messaging, but she’s not and never was. It was only talk-talk. The took it to her for her nonsense. It is nonsense. Its like she’s standing up there throwing the same hissy bush throws when someone challenges him! We need Jo Frost to come in here and take the Emperor and Empress in hand… and that’s what Edwards/Obama/Dodd/Kucinich did.
They made very legitimate points with Hillary. Period. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....16149/8513
Legitimate points, no personal attacks, no sexist behavior at all! This is for the President of the United States, not prom King or Queen.
This is kinda looking like a good cop/bad cop routine. Sheeeesh.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 15
I get 63 - Chris Dodd.
Edwards is a (my) pretty boy. I think Obama’s homely. (ducking)
Yeah, surely you remember the ‘Year of the Woman’ and what that poorly understood catastrophe left us with:
Senator Diane ‘I luvs me some Bush’ Feinstein.
Madame Speaker Nancy ‘It’s off the table boys…’ Pelosi
Senator Barbara ‘I luvs me some Lieberman’ Boxer
The idea that Senator Clinton would do anything like what you are implying in terms of our civil rights, workers rights, or The MeatGrinder would be laughable if it were not so gotdamn wrong!
Let’s get away from the gender based defensiveness and give credit where credit is due.
Edwards has a progressive plan for the nation and if you study his speeches carefully you will see that he is framing same in terms of establishing his push-back while he makes his points.
Something Senator Clinton does not do primarily since she plans to use ReThug talking points in the general.
Wake up and smell the corruption!
P J Evans @ 9
This isn’t about “women’s rights”….. at all. You all are doing more damage to women by making this an issue. So is Hillary, btw.
My quiz results go:
Dodd, Obama, Hillary, Edwards, Kucinich
It doesn’t matter which democrat gets the nomination. Whoever it is will be demonized by the MSM. Even if an unknown outsider comes in and is nominated, someone pure as the driven snow, someone with all the answers, they will be chewed up and spit out by all the press for their entire administration. Even if they solve all the problems created by BushCo and the republicans in their first four years, the press will do nothing but talk about how bad they are for america. Count on it.
rwcole @ 21
I got the same result, right after I almost choked to death on my MT. Dew.
When it first changed screens to show my results it started in the middle and I saw Sam Brownback before it changed to Dodd.
I really don’t want to see a President HRC.
And it’s not that I think she isn’t smart (I think she is) and not because she’s too DLC (though I think she is) and not because she couldn’t handle the job or the inevitable VRWC attacks in the general (she clearly can).
It’s two things:
1. The points at which I feel she has provided real leadership in her current capacity as Senator are few and far between (same with Obama), and have had to be forced out of her.
2. She’s a legacy. She is a front runner because she’s been ordained as such by major media and that the Clinton fundraising spigot went from Bill to her. Each of these flow directly from having been First Lady.
Not that she wasn’t a big force in Clinton v1.0 (imagine how much credit you would give Laura Bush in the experience column for doing the “same” job?).
I don’t think the country can take another round of political dynasty and remain viable. Will the Bush name be rehabilitated enough for Jeb to run in 2012 or 2016? Haven’t we had enough cronies for this century? Do we need to bring back a new set of folks all wired up to create a new K Street project from the left?
That’s just too big a risk.
I don’t see Hillary as a leader in the Senate, much less a leader in the Oval Office.
Besides, the Ziocons own Hillary lock, stock, a barrel.
rwcole @ 21
Hey, mine came up Gravel & Kucinich on the quiz, tied for first. Talk about picking losers. But not far behind in a dead heat for 2nd are Edwards, Hillary, Obama.
Just shows you how poor tests are at figuring out what’s important. I mean that to apply to NCLB too.
This is bullshit …winners can be tough and relenting….only a dumb CHIMPSTER is always unrelenting
Swopa @ 16
What do you suggest? The Edwards has to walk a fine line, other wise it looks like he’s beating up on Hillary(Especially in the debates). I think he should attack Rudy and Mitt more.
I feel like I must be the one on crack (see last post) when I read such high praise for a candidate who refuses to answer questions directly and receives high praise for being a strong leader..when her actions support the like of Kyl Lieberman on top of her miserable experience with Bushco and her unforgivable vote for the war in Iraq part three (S and Awe.. among countless other failings.
The only hint I have as to how HC would govern is guess work based on a disappointing past.. All else is projection and blind faith on many peoples parts, imo.
I think the MSM built up HRC and Obama, so that the Neocons can take them down.
I swear, if a Dem, any Dem, makes it to the Presidency on 1/20/09…I will kiss the ground. I’m worried though..I don’t like what W’s doing right now at all. I think we are in real trouble - expecially with the Administrative Orders. That is just so not ok.
Welcome, Swopa. There are extra steel helmets and flack jackets on the counter. Hang in there.
Swopa @ 16
the “soft” candidate is the only one who has consistently challenged HRC on the issues that matter to progressives.
yes, he doesn’t have a codpiece, but he’s not afraid to pull punches and he consistently refuses to submit to the right wing narrative that elections have become.
a tough guy/gal with the wrong policies don’t mean shit
Joe Biden has true grit, but not much media attention. I also think any analysis of what is going on has to take into account the media role, as Howie Klein pointed out recently.
As for Clinton, she wants to have it all ways: project the strong tough image, while appealing to women voters to get even with the perpetrators of past gender-based wrongs by voting for her, and complaining that other candidates who treat her no differently from how any other front runner has ever been treated are “piling on.”
I was recently on the receiving end of some online Iowa polling for Clinton that wanted to know how I responded to blatant appeals to gender. The theme was “you go, girl,” and they wanted to know which slogans, logos and appealing ads featuring women would appeal to this female Iowa Democrat. The images ranged from Elizabeth I to a silhouette that looked like Barbie. I found it offensive. We’re trying to pick a President here, people.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 32
I think they should beat up on the Rs more. Biden’s slam of Rudi was perfect, as was the one about going in a Halloween mask of Romney with 2 faces. If Hillary can run a national campaign in a primary, so can the rest of them. And attacking Rs first waould be far better than not even responding, as was Kerry’s sorry performance the last time.
Any candidate for president who isn’t willing to attack the leader unmercifully doesn’t have any business running in the first place.
Do we need to bring back a new set of folks all wired up to create a new K Street project from the left?
The K Street Project focussed on Congress… and if Pelosi’s spokesman’s response to the question of her appearing at a fundraiser for Al Wynn is any indication, the Dems are gonna be just as bad as the GOP in no time..
I understand what you’re saying. There are many admirable things about Hillary, not the least of which is the campaign that she’s run. I don’t hate her and I hate to pile on.
Unfortunately, there are also some things that I don’t like. I don’t like that she voted for the AUMF, or that she voted for Kyl/Lieberman. I also think she is too calculating, too triangulating, too power hungry.
I don’t know whether she’d cede back any of that ugly power grab that Bush set off. I don’t know if she’d allow Congress to put Habeas Corpus back into effect. I don’t remember them questioning much about the loss of our civil liberties. I don’t know how she feels about signing statements, or the pace of them since the Bush Admin. I don’t trust her in many ways due to some of her past votes in the Senate.
No, I don’t think she’s terrible, but I don’t feel she’d be the best candidate, either. My problem is that I can’t decide which of the other candidates is better; the only one I think totally outclasses all the current candidates is Al Gore, and so far, he’s chosen not to tackle that beast. Democratic politics, that is, not Hillary. I know how he feels about the loss of our civil liberties; he’s talked about it a lot over the last 2 years. I don’t even know if Hillary will go completely as necessary into the global warming mode to take us where we need to be. I’m just so confused!
A.Citizen @ 25
That’s the whole problem of the top three all being Senators(as compared to being governors). Sometimes it is hard to know where an Edwards or Clinton really stand because of all the horse trading and crap that goes on in the Senate. I want to trust that Edwards is more progressive than his Senate stint would let him(especially NC at the time). Would a Hillary presidency be the end of the world? Of course not. I just want more. I have high expectations.
Well sure Hillary wants to have it both ways- that’s how you get elected.
I think Obama has chosen to be the “statesman” in this campaign, and is steering away of being overly critical of other candidates and their views on the issues. If Obama gets too outspoken he has the possibility of being labeled “radical” in the 60’s black radical sense. It could frighten away moderate and more conservative voters. I think this could be why he is playing it calm and cool rather than lighting the fire the press keep threatening him with.
Lieberman just came out in favor of Mukasey urging the Senate to accept him (per Josh Marshall).
I hate that mole more than anyone in politics.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 13
I get Gravel on a number of quizzes. If you thought Edwards was obscure to the MSM…!!
I took the quiz and even though I chose
“favor immediate and orderly withdrawal of U.S. troops” from Iraq, the results say I disagree with both Edwards and Dodd.
Where is the disagreement?
I also think any analysis of what is going on has to take into account the media role, as Howie Klein pointed out recently.
Hey Susan, I love Howie, but he didn’t write that.
I did. :-)
Few sitting senators have ever won the presidency- their voting record becomes an anchor and they eventually sink into the depths.
It doesn’t take a genius to mine a voting record for atrocities.
rwcole @ 43
One of those Catch-22 things-we don’t want a candidate who wants to get elected.
CAHN
Hey- I think you hit on it!!!
More calls to make on Monday:
per TPM
Aaaaagh! **banging head on desk**
I am so sick & tired of polls asking us to tell them what would appeal to us so they can sell themselves better. I am so sick & tired of incumbents helping other incumbents simply because they are incumbent. I am so sick & tired of not being heard.
Develop plans. Care about your country. Get angry. Stand for something - anything. Then we’ll talk.
rwcole @ 50
Curtsying modestly.
why is it that people complain about the sight of these men piling on the front running woman in the debate? hillary is supposedly so tough- no one would blink an eye if she was a man, and the others pointed their attention at her… does her gender give her immunity for questioning some of her bullshit positions? the fact that the mainstream media gives her so much coverage, and the fact that she’s a front runner, and that she has positions that gives progressives a stomachache is plenty of reason to focus any and all attention on her
p.lukasiak @ 49
I’m sorry. It was brilliant though, so am I forgiven? 8~)
mark @ 46
And I am REALLY sick & tired of Joe Lieberman.
A.Citizen @ 25
I’m thankful A Citizen said what I wanted to say, but am too tired to spell out to the continuously disappointingly politically inexperienced left blogosphere.
And, while I’m at it, folks, Primaries, Primaries, Primaries: that’s where you make change in a system where the seats are guaranteed by and for the political parties!!!
I’ve played the game passionately, been the official dem candidate for CA leg, been on Exec Committee of CA Dem Party, etc., and I’ve dropped out because too many lefties just don’t get it, like Atrios avowing a couple years back, Oh, I don’t get involved in primaries…
Folks, the game is played among really passionate people, many quite psychologically screwed up, whoring for the MONEY that the system works on; the only offensive strategy, short of a Marx-ian catastrophe, is grass roots upsetting incumbents in primaries.
OK, got to go to bed, cuz I’m old and tired…
eCAHNomics @ 38:
I agree. I like a lot of what Edwards has to say. Hopefully he’ll pick up the attacks on Rudy. He can’t be timid(like he was in the debates versus Darth Vader).
absolutely (but only because you called it brilliant) ;-)
God… I just found out I really am for Dodd…I’m going to send him some more money just so he can make some “NOISE”!
eCAHNomics @ 51
I don’t know why Feingold hasn’t made a statement, but I’ll bet that he’ll vote against Mukasey.
PS - My 54 was directed at politicians, just in case that wasn’t clear. I guess my rant got away from me a bit!
rwcole @ 52
i think that’s what sunk kerry in ‘04. he seemed to be grooming himself his whole adult life for a presidential run…
p.lukasiak @ 61
I’ve been listening to candidates in Iowa for months and have become a completely shameless panderer by osmosis. I think I went over the edge when Dodd started talking about all the comestibles you can put on a stick at the Iowa State Fair.
eCAHNomics @ 49
It’s a real paradox isn’t. As I have said before, I think the biggest political learning experience for Hillary was watching Bill become the youngest ex-governor in history, in 1980. He got too far ahead of the electorate an was hammered.
JimmyJeff @ 57
If you have noticed, I think even Atrios has changed his tune. Ned Lamont was the start. Donna Edwards and Mark Pera are the next step!! Al Wynn and Lipinski better enjoy their last year in Congress.
LHP is upstairs talking about immunity…
Hey, did FDL change so as to automatically eliminate ziggarauts? I loved zigs. I miss them.
eCAHNomics @ 71
What?
Steve-AR @ 68
I thought it was the car-tax thingy that hammered Bill.
I was leaning toward the two male Dem’s until the debate. Then Russert asked her a question which deliberately falsified Clinton’s past answers on Social Security, and said he was doing so because those past answers raised questions about “her” credibility. Of course one of those past questions was asked by Russert himself! Both Edward’s and Obama were then asked to participate in this fraud which they willingly did. I am now leaning to Clinton. Russert has zero credibility.
OT, but I’m so appalled I have to post about Short Ride’s response to criticism of Kyl-Lieberman (viat TPM):
Really, Joe, “ample evidence”? Perhaps you could share some of that with the American people before asking us to believe it. I haven’t heard of any “evidence” other than a dog-and-pony show in Iraq with military briefers who didn’t even want their names used. I would think that after the debacle of the “evidence” for the Iraq War, warmongers would be ashamed to refer to The Big Lie as “evidence,” but of course, Joe has no shame.
You know how you “get over” distrust, Joe? The first step is for the guy you distrust to stop lying to you and deceiving you. Otherwise it’s not called “getting over it.” It’s called “being a sucker.”
The American people have made it pretty damn clear they don’t want any more of that.
Scarecrow @ 72
Where people keep hitting quote on comments, which them have increasing number of quotes, i.e. indents. Ooops, make that ziggurats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat
Pachacutec @ 18
No, I’m facing up to the fact of how they come across. The GOP builds these frames for a reason; they know what factors into people’s decision-making. Knowing what frames one is vulnerable to is an important part of defeating them.
I have a great deal of respect for Hillary Clinton. TPM Horse’s Mouth has posted an exchange with Russert who was questioning her during her Senate campaign of 2000 — over her husband’s infidelity. She answered this tactless question with great aplomb and grace.
Her message is about restoring fiscal sanity, strengthening the middle class, health care for all, diplomacy and rebuilding America’s image in the world. I’ve heard her speak several times, listened to the debates. I find it unnerving and bewildering that some members of the blogosphere attack her for lack of clarity. She’s been quite clear…certainly as clear or clearer than her opponents.
The all-out attack on her is disturbing. I would much rather see the candidates target the real enemy — Bush and an anti-Constitution, anti-American GOP, who have done more than I ever dreamed possible to destroy this nation and polarize the country.
This is why people hate politics. The media, of course, is not only complicit, but at times seems to drive the polarizing rhetoric and triviality of the national dialogue.
Here, here’s your “True Grit”…… John Wayne was an ACTOR. We don’t want an actor. He was a republican and today represents the macho cowboy mentality of the pubbies. Here’s your true grit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EUP9rOLf30
Nice movie though and locations to die for ;-)
Swopa, your messaging in your post is that Hillary had, strength, True Grit, rah rah, and thos “pretty boys” are just so much fluffery. Its sexist to say that. Hillary hasn’t kicked anyone’s ass yet. I doubt she will in the voting. :D
Conversely, it helps her that her main opponents (Obama and Edward) not only are inexperienced in policy terms, and relative neophytes in facing the GOP sludge machine, they’re… well, let’s be blunt… pretty boys.
to be fair to edwards hasn’t he faced a southern GOP machine?
the man has lost a child.
he’s a ‘pretty boy?’
bah humbug.
HillA*P*Cry
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 69
Do not forget that the ‘Year of the Woman’ took place prior to the rise of Free Left Blogistan. Things are different now and we know we can change the ground rules. Not to say it will happen this cycle or next but we are on our way!
Read Paul Rosenberg’s posts on this at OpenLeft. And watch for mine on ‘political fitness spaces’ and how we can change them so that the evolutionary rules for success as a politician select for progressives.
Not Al Wynn or The Hill.
listen- I didn’t read the earlir postings so forgive me if I am repeating. However- I have to try and point something out- The ripping and gouging and smearing of Hillary is exactly what the goopers want to see. Once again, they are shaping the discussion. Given the fact that the MSM is going to want the “Catfights”- Hillary and the rest of the fools should focus solely on the issues that define the dems and point out the actions of the goopers! Keep the focus on the differences between the dems and the goopers! Screw the MSM and the wingnuts. Every single attack item will be brought back during the election campaign. God knows that there is enough to go after them with.
Her message is about restoring fiscal sanity, strengthening the middle class, health care for all, diplomacy and rebuilding America’s image in the world. I’ve heard her speak several times, listened to the debates. I find it unnerving and bewildering that some members of the blogosphere attack her for lack of clarity. She’s been quite clear…certainly as clear or clearer than her opponents.
and bombing the living bejesus out of every iraqui and iranian daring to eat figs and dates and drink mint tea and not pull up to a drivethrough and ask to be supersized
Swopa, with all due respect, my view is that framing things in terms of “grit” (and how IS that different from toughness?) is a male frame.
Or maybe, the current version of “a guy I’d like to have a beer with” = “I want someone with true grit” intended to impact the low information voter.
reid pelosi clinton blah blah blah.
listen to an old phil och’s album about ‘liberals.’
Sorry but I don’t agree the rationale that one is ready to be prez because they can take a punch. I understand all of this poor Hillary rhetoric from well known bloggers, but it doesn’t fly with me. I don’t trust her, and I think the MSM have been worthless as usual,but they may be no other way for people to take notice that you really can’t trust Hillary, other than really putting her on the defensive. By the way, just because her campaign put out that stoopid spin, doesn’t mean it is TRUE!She and Big dog threw the progressives under the bus before, she will do it again!
Is she not the perceived front runner? Did anyone not raise a legitimate criticism? Hello.
As for the “POLLS”…I don’t believe them either.
Here’s Doug Ireland’s Obama(rama) Wrap-Up
So it’s sexism when somebody attacks the front runner who is female, or uses coded mysogynist words like “shooting daggers” but not homophobia to say that the problem with the contenders is that they are “pretty boys?”
Please, if you want CRH to win because she is a woman, that’s great! Just spare us the hypocrisy and don’t tell the rest of us that we’re assholes because we disagree with you.
And my L.A. Times op-ed two cents on the highly UNmagic Negro.
Valley Girl @ 84
Try re-reading the two sentences before the one that mentions “grit.” ;-)
runar @ 91
Precisely!
coral @ 78
So you do want to talk more about Bill Clinton’s dick?
Because, I really don’t. This is the constant topic we face again. (Thank you Hillary). Could we please, as country, stop giving them bright shiney objects to distract from the issues at hand. Hillary’s very presence as a “candidate” gives them re-hash rights. Oh, please can we move along?
Swopa @ 93
I read that before. Not so much of a distinction in my mind. I guess we differ on that.
And, the other part of my comment?
David Ehrenstein @ 90
David, thanks for the link. I also read your LA Times piece (posted here in the comments).
Said to some one that I never trusted Obama, and then tried to figure out why. Best I can come up with so far is that he’s too much in love with his own charisma. Love to hear your opinion on that.
Last night the punditocracy adjusted their puny jockstraps and beat up a girl.