Yes, it is a lovely thought (via Atrios):
I have a fantasy that at one of these moments, a candidate will say, “You know what, Tim, I’m not going to answer that question. This is serious business. And you, sir, are a disgrace. You have in front of you a group of accomplished, talented leaders, one of whom will in all likelihood be the next president of the United States. You can ask them whatever you want. And you choose to engage in this ridiculous gotcha game, thinking up inane questions you hope will trick us into saying something controversial or stupid. Your fondest hope is that the answer to your question will destroy someone’s campaign. You’re not a journalist, you’re the worst kind of hack, someone whose efforts not only don’t contribute to a better informed electorate, they make everyone dumber. So no, I’m not going to stand here and try to come up with the most politically safe Bible verse to cite. Is that the best you can do?”
But that’s not an option open to Hillary Clinton. And while I’m sure this will open up the full-throated ire of the “must hate Hillary all the time” contingent, I believe this is where the candidates must operate within a double standard.
I myself get a perfect thrill from sitting down behind a keyboard and tapping out things that make the beat-offs at Red State just insane with rage, knowing full well that my male blogging counterparts can say the same thing and they’ll be respected as “tough” and “aggressive” and “forthright.” But I’m not running for office, and my career on the receiving end of right-wing rage is rather short and low-voltage compared to what Hillary Clinton has been through for well on 15 years. That she has learned how to project confidence and leadership and at the same time iron out any aggressive body language, any visible signs of anger or moments that could give rise to “the sound bite played round the world” so as not to feed into the narrative that the right wing has so relentlessly tried to sow about her is no mean feat.
The hammering she took from her competitors last night in the debate is not available to her as a means of fighting back. The Mighty Wurlitzer would instantly seize the opportunity to cast her as “cold” and “hostile,” it would leap into the main stream media and that would be that. Her opponents took advantage of that fact. As scarecrow noted this morning, it wasn’t a particularly high water mark in the race.
And yet, she’s the one who had the courage to try to defend Eliot Spitzer last night (and more forcefully today), despite the fact that he’s politically toxic at the moment and she knew she’d only take shit for it. Her opponents decided to seize the opportunity to attack her rather than defend Spitzer, and now the media is circling and calling her “shrill.”
Her defense was anything but perfect, but it was a defense. Taylor Marsh:
The drivers licenses question at the end obviously surprised Clinton. But when explaining Spitzer’s plan Clinton once again showed something that her opponents do not get. She is willing to go to bat for our guy in New York, Elliot Spitzer, who has been trying to deal with the immigration challenge he’s facing as governor. The same cannot be said for the rest of the group on stage standing next to Clinton. What’s Spitzer supposed to do when Congress shirks their responsibility on the immigration issue? Clinton absolutely got caught up in the subject, but she nailed, without flinching, what Spitzer is trying to do. It’s obvious that most of her opponents not only weren’t familiar with Spitzer’s legislation, which lost out because no one would stand up with him, but were only interested in going after Clinton. As an aside, I think this issue will ignite the wingnuts, just like the anti gay marriage amendments did in ’04. I’m against illegal immigrants getting licenses as was proposed by Spitzer (too cumbersome, for one), but I fully understand and appreciate Spitzer had to do something because Congress is not. However, that’s no reason to throw Spitzer under a bus. Clinton is getting hammered today, which I predicated, especially on the drivers license question moment, which came at the end of a withering assault from The Boys. But make no mistake about it she stood up and fought back for Spitzer.
Daily Kos diarist Alegre:
Russert asked the panel of 7 candidates a total of fifty-two questions. How many do you figure were about Hillary?
Go on – take a guess.
Give up?
Right – of the 52 questions a total of twenty-five were about Hillary.
Of those 25, how many do you think were hostile toward Hillary?
Go on – take a guess.
Give up?
Right – 22 of those questions were hostile.
As John Amato said last night when we were watching the debate, “why doesn’t he just ask her if she killed Vince Foster?”
It is possible to disagree with many of Hillary Clinton’s policies and still have empathy for what she is going through and respect that she understands the architecture of a right-wing attack, and the fact that you simply do not repeat Republican talking points or you will only reinforce your opponent. To admire her willingness to stand up for an unpopular progressive official even though she knows it will cost her. The “must hate Hillary all the time” crowd are having a fine time circling with the wingnuts in attacking her today, and it’s a sad spectacle, but as a woman this particular impulse has always struck a wrong note with me anyway.
Today — doubly so.



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Dick Cheney controls Tim Russert.
I’m not a fan of piling on either.
I’m still pissed about that f*cking UFO question…
I think she handled all of it well.
I also really liked that Edwards called out the “Neocons” a couple of times.
The UFO question was funny and just a try to further ridicule Kucinich, but he handled it well.
Russert is just shameful.
The more they pile on Hillary, the more people will be sympathetic to her, so that tactic will ultimately backfire.
She gets points from me for supporting Spitzer.
So MMFA will be shortly recieving accusations of being a Hillary spin zone again?
I think they want her as the candidate because her negs are high and they can pile on her like big time in the general. When repukes want her to run, watch out.
Perhaps I am living in a dream world. I just want all of the candidates to tell us the truth all of the time. I don’t care if it’s Edwards, Dodd, Clinton, Kucinich, Richardson or whoever. And I don’t care about gender, ethnicity, sexual lifestyle, religion or any other non-pertinent info. I would like to see a progressive elected president in 2008, and I don’t give a damn about party affiliation either.
As a man I am sick of most of the men and women in my party. The Democratic Party.
after watching the repugs last week and the dems this week i have decided hillary is a tough lady. kind of reminds me of the Jonathan Swift quote: “When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him/her by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him/her.”
LS @ 4
I rank the UFO Ques, amongst the crass lines of…”So when did you stop beating your wife…?” 8-(
It’s more like thirty years. Your post is exactly what I was thinking the afternoon. If she doesn’t “fight back” or act pissed off..she is weak..do we want a weak Commander in Chief? If she fights back she is a bitch, too aggressive, shrill.
The crap she was getting last night was “play time” to what she has gotten the past or what is ahead. The good thing is she can perfect her game against pussies like Timmeh before having to deal with the VRWC in the up coming death match.
I am truly begining to wonder if this country is WORTH saving. That there isn’t a mass revolt of the electorate against the corporate media and this criminal cabal infecting the WhiteHouse pulls me more and more, like a rip tide, to the conclusion that it is NOT! Maybe we should work towards whatever will come AFTER PaxAmerika goes under? maybe there is some hope that from the ashes of Bush’s armagetun a truly free and democratic society can arise. But I’m not holding my breath. The fact that Rummy had to scurry out the back door and hide out in the embassy till they could get him to the airport in I believe it was France gives me SOME hope. I can see it now, the whole Bush crime family will have to stay here in America or face arrest and trial at the World Court. It DOES give one hope…but not much.
Rube Cretin @ 10
She’s tough, alright, but that’s not the issue. The issue is her authoritarianism, secrecy, and militarism.
I’m no fan of Hillary but after last night she showed me that she can take whatever the guys dish out. The spectacle was painful to watch. Obama did nothing last night to give me a reason to vote for him. Hillary is tough as nails and doesn’t make mistakes. She may have just earned my vote.
The Repubs must be thrilled that they don’t have to run on Bush’s record, just against Hillary.
Jebus. All I care about are the issues. My gawd.
A touch off topic, but still Clinton related:
No matter what bad things the Repubs do, they want you to always remember that Clinton Got a Bl*wj*b.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DAVI16FSjxU
eCAHNomics @ 14
You make her sound like one of the guys.
I agree that Russert/Williams were just awful last night, but I don’t feel sorry for H. Clinton. It’s nothing personal, she’s the leader right now, they would have piled on Edwards the same way if he were the leader. It doesn’t do her or the party any good to shy away from criticism, those softballs she was fielding last night (and I think she did better than most people give her credit for) are nothing compared to what she will have to field if she becomes the nominee and has to face the Republican attack machine. Better to face those questions now and hone your responses than wait until the national election is at stake.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
It’s not Rocket Science… fer christ sakes! 8~)
Is Hillary going through anything remotely comparable to what illegals, the poor, minorities, an Iraqi civilian, the dispossessed go through on a daily basis? And the blog elites would have us crying for poor put upon Hillary?
LS @ 4
He did handle it well – more people believe in UFO’s than support Bush. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I liked that. Biden seems honestly incredulous that Giuliani is a serious candidate.
The Thugs saying Hill is the candidate we want run against is false bravado. Just look at their recent behavior in their “debates” it’s all Hillary. When the Thugs think about President Hillary Clinton they “don’t know whether to shit or go blind”.
Hillary is the front runner and got the appropriate amount of heat.
She’s the front-runner. The front-runner’s gonna get the attention from the moderator and most of the criticism from the competition. She was defended, inelegantly, from “personal attacks” by Bill Richardson. I heard none.
She’s chosen to run an incumbency campaign. Therefore her primary opponents are going to gang up on her.
Saying it has anything to do with gender is wrong. If it was Al Gore at center stage in that coral pantsuit jacket, he’d be getting the same treatment from the others on the stage, including the moderators.
If her co-genderists are complaining about how she’s being treated by The Boys now, just wait until she’s the nominee. Do you think Laura Ingram, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter and Old 60 Grit are going to give her a pass for sisterhood in the general election? I don’t. And none of us should either.
It’s not reinforcing right-wing narrative to criticize Senator Clinton for waffling on her defense of Spitzer’s proposal. In fact, it goes to the hesitation many of us have about nominating her: she’ll triangulate her way out of answering most anything.
Bluetoe @ 20
What’s a “blog elite”?
I am a blog elite?
I don’t feel sorry for Hillary, I thought she did well.
People I know like it that she’s a fighter.
SanderO @ 7
She’s their worst nightmare. Keep in mind that they’ve learned Rove’s art of backwardspeak. Can you imagine the general election debates if Hillary is the candidate against any of those dolts? Hillary will decimate the republican candidate, and hopefully Russert to boot.
I personally felt Hillary did an admirable job, yet, I thought Edwards benefited the most, and, Obama, crashed and burned…!
Rube Cretin @ 17
In Hillary’s & my generation, it really helped a woman get ahead in a man’s world if she had the behavioral characteristics of the guys. I resemble that myself & saw plenty of other women like that on Wall St. Of course, if a woman behaves like a man (there’s a song in there somewhere). she gets criticized for it.
BTW, I was 3 years ahead of Hillary at Wellesley. I didn’t know her, but I know the type very well.
Jane,
I So Get Behind Atrios’s observation, noted above.
Regarding Hillary Clinton, there is Still very much the glass ceiling and a double bar. Women have to do it higher, better and with a smile and a casserole on the table attitude.
Just in my experience.
I also am smiling about Taylor Marsh’s comments. When I first started reading Huffingtonpost, a while before I found Lakesville – *g*, I was anamored with Taylor Marsh.
X O – All
CTuttle @ 28
Obama was like someone at the senior prom who had never danced before.
Beerfart Liberal @ 25
Meant: Am I a “blog elite”? I would think not. Gotta go give out more candy.
CTuttle @ 28
Yeah, I was really uncomfortable watching Obama’s choppiness…he made me nervous. He’s great on the stump, but he’s not good in the debates.
What is really sickening is watching Chris Matthews attack-attack-attack Hillary.
His pro- Guiliani stance is so obvious.
Love that image. It’s perfect.
Loo Hoo. @ 27
I think she would lose the general election to either Giuliani or Romney, and I hope she is not the nominee. Nevertheless, I think she did well last night, as did Edwards. I think Obama is finished. To me, the question of the moment is, will the Obama votes go to Clinton or Edwards?
Bluetoe @ 20
It’s hard to know because she wouldn’t say. I suspect with the cracker fundie preachers saying she is the agent of satan and limpdick et as calling her a commie, soc*al*st, baby killing lesbian for the last 15 years; she is and has gotten a fair number of threat to person.
Twain @ 31
Heh, nice analogy…
eCAHNomics @ 29
we are about the same age and being from the south it took me a while to get use to tough ladies. but over time i learned to respect it and believe you me i believe the tough mind she posesses cannot be anything but a plus in this very complicated world.
la urracca @ 34
Matthews was wigging out about the driver’s licenses tonight. “They’re giving them out like candy. Are we even a country anymore?” Hyperbole, no?
The “public” will go for the “strong, attractive one that is different”. IMHO
That was the first debate I listened to.
For style, I’ll give Hillary 10 — confident, completely knowledgeable, friendly, interested in the subjects, at ease
For content, let’s not talk about it.
BlueMesa @ 36
I hope they go to Edwards; it’s too soon for a run-away..It would be ideal to cut the field to Edwards, Dodd, and Clinton and let them go at each other for six months.
Lahoma advises me that she feels that the most important situation is to have a Democrat in the WH come January, 2009. Her’s is a most defensible position.
Rube Cretin @ 38
Thank you for adjusting. I know far too many men our age who haven’t.
Kucinich has the hottest spouse — and her tongue’s pierced!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
Exactly Lahoma. (still dreaming of Gore entering though) /sigh
CTuttle @ 29
I agree and since the MSM gives all the time and attention to Hillary, one can understand Edwards trying to make his differences known.
TeddySanFran @ 45
I chnew thacht.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Since it appears there’s no way to get a Democrat into the White House sooner (”off the table”) I must say that Lahoma’s is a most agreeable position.
triciawrites @ 46
I still think he will.
TeddySanFran @ 25
I did not notice anything like this happening during the Republican debate to Rudy Giuliani.
TeddySanFran @ 45
TMI
As this horse race has progressed, I’ve long since lost my ‘Home-Grown’ enthusiasm for Obama’s candidacy…! 8-(
TeddySanFran @ 45
Where the hell did I see where someone asked if she was a FLILF?
I couldn’t figure out what it meant until I read it and now I can’t remember where.
TeddySanFran @ 45
How Dennis Kucinich Landed Smoking Hot Liz, In 8 Minutes!
link
eCAHNomics @ 46
adjusting hell, i ‘ve been backed into a corner and bitch slapped by too many of them for my ignorant sterotyping.
TeddySanFran @ 45
No shit? I’ll bet she’s got some hidden tatoos then!
/*delurk
Beautifully said, thank-you Jane!
CTuttle @ 11
How I wish, the next time Teh Big Punkinhead asks a stupid question, that any one of the Dems retort by asking Russert exactly that. That’s why Gravel is so useful. Someone should convince him to do it(if he ever gets invited to another debate).
Just saw the Donna Edwards post before this one…
I’m absolutely furious with Pelosi. Al Wynn is who she sticks her neck out for?!? You could not have found a stronger supporter of Pelosi than me nine months ago. My support has been slowly eroding, wanting to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is the last straw.
Go Donna!! In the couple of minutes it took me to enter my info for Donna Edwards at Act Blue, five more people donated. Let’s keep it going!!
Bustednuckles @ 54
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..r-a-flilf/
Bustednuckles @ 56
Was it on TDS?
Bustednuckles @ 54
Well…don’t keep us in suspense, bk.
Rube Cretin @ 56
Well, whatever it takes, then.
The use of the word ’shrill’ to describe Clinton bothers me, too. Not only is it not accurate, I have never heard it used to describe a man in a similar situation. It’s just plain sexist.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 61
Would someone please tell me why the MSM gets to decide who we will see in the debates. I don’t understand this at all. They whittle down the candidates and we have nothing to say about it?
There is a legal fiction that a corporation is a person,
but in the case of General Electric, it’s true.
That person is Tim Russert.
Let’s start calling Ghouliani “shrill”!!!!
Jane Hamsher @ 52
Hi Jane! If you look at the state-by-state polls, Giuliani is not as clearly a front-runner as people like to say. He trails Romney in Iowa, for example. Also, if you look over time, Giuliani’s support has been steady but hasn’t grown, while Romney has been steadily gaining. It’s still a race on the Republican side. No one knows where the McCain votes will go, for example, which are sizeable in some states. Also I think Clinton doesn’t help herself by having her people leak stories about how she’s a shoe-in, so Democrats ought to just let her coast to victory and let her save her money for the general. That has to rankle anyone who votes, since no votes have been cast yet at all.
esseff33 @ 67
don’t get all hysterical ;)
when The Boys started in on Hillary being a flip-floppin’ waffler for her statements on the driver’s licenses… and while, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I didn’t feel the least bit confused by her answer and was actually confused by the attacks…
I think The Boys, in the longer run, screwed themselves last night. They seemed dishonest and disingenuous.
Jane Hamsher @ 51
Actually, Romney mixed it up pretty well with Rudi on taxes and NYC as a sanctuary city. When you’re the monkey atop the ladder, you’re gonna be the target.
Of course, should my candidate take the lead, I’ll be the first one hollering “Unity” and telling people not to invoke right-wing memes against my fellah. So I understand the consternation: her supporters think she’s gonna be the nominee, and they’d rather we all fall in line, now.
I’m pretty sure that’s not gonna happen.
Loo Hoo. @ 65
I think it was TDS..First Ladies I’d Like to F***.
Bustednuckles @ 54
Jason Jones, husband of Samantha Bee and Daily Show correspondent.
LS @ 70
I’m for that
i didn’t even watch the debate last night… but i looks like i should have.
for anyone, like me, who wants to see it – it’s on c-span2 tonight at 9pm edt.
Steve-AR @ 73
The link is up at 61. Here it is again http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..r-a-flilf/
LS @ 68
I’m in.
esseff33 @ 67
No, it’s not sexist.
Check it.
Woman’s voices just come off a certain way. Hormones, etc.
Men, come off in a lower toned version of piercing, strident, etc.
Tweety has his tightywhities all in a twist cause today’s Clinton ad makes fun of the debate. The truth is nbc and their ridiculous questions made the debate a joke.
Matthews will look like the gooper fool he is when the Ghoul goes down.
eCAHNomics @ 66
just be gentle
Hillary didn’t attack the character of any of her dem competitors, she showed more class than that…but I sure wouldn’t want to be in Obama’s shoes right about now passing her in the halls of the senate.
esseff33 @ 67
paul krugman is shrill.
senator clinton has a long way to go before she can qualify as shrill.
demi @ 82
but imo shrill essentially translates to shrew. There could be a less loaded word to use to describe her voice. jmo
OldCoastie @ 71
I didn’t like the piling on, I remarked last nite, that it was deja vu of the Repug debate… “Hillary, Hillary…!” 8-(
demi @ 80
Someone’s actually done a study of women’s voices across several develped countries. The pitch goes down as the acceptance of women’s equality goes up. For example, women’s voices were highest in Japan, and lowest in some Scandinavian country, iirc.
I don’t HATE Hillary and resent those (not you) who say that if I don’t support her, I HATE her. Is Hillary my choice? No. But I don’t HATE her. And I am frankly sick of being told that I do. (If it is reverse psychology, that doesn’t work either.)
All the hostile comments at her last night are what a front-runner always gets. And those candidates below her NEED to do that. But Timmi? And the rest of the misogynistic pundits? A different story.
If only the blogs could get some MSM time — like on Timmi’s show — you know, shows that have big ratings. I sometimes see ONE on, but that person rarely, if ever, comes back on. Hmmmm — I wonder why the Timmis of the world never have them back?
eCAHNomics @ 89
well now that’s fascinating, wonder if I can google that up >>>
Brainstorm…
What other names do they keep calling Hillary and or the Dems in general?
We need to turn it around on them.
What if the question that was asked was:
“Senator Clinton, do you think that invading Iraq was a mistake?” ?
Or, let’s ask this question:
“why should democrats vote for a candidate who can’t or won’t name the misery in Iraq for what it is? And why should progressive democrats defend her?”
Because if she cannot, or will not, do that, it means that in the general election, she will be shaving points for the GOP and abandoning the issue on which they are most vulnerable.
As for dog-piling, every frontrunner in every election faces that. Period. Exclamation point.
From what I saw of that last night, she was given too MUCH slack.
I didn’t watch the whole thing, but did anyone ask her about her connections with AIPAC?
I know John Edwards got into her corporate ties some, but did anyone point out just how much she’s received from “defense” contractors?
Did anyone ask her the crucial question of how she expects to go after bush and republicans for dragging us into Iraq, when she has never unequivocally said that it was a mistake to do it?
If asking these questions is “dog-piling”, then: arf! arf!
Because, until I see someone ask her THAT question, I have to say that far from being unfairly attacked, she’s being treated like a sacred cow.
What respect I had for Bill Richardson went down the tube, when he complained about “negativity”.
We are nearly 5 years into a bloody, pointless, war, in which at least a half-million people have died, ours and theirs, with no end in sight. It has cost us more than $400 billion dollars, and counting.
It is a war which Senator Clinton voted to authorize, and which she has consistently supported. And she has never recanted; never apologized; for that support.
There is, as we all know, not the slightest indication of a “good” ending.
At this point, with the MSM and the establishment beltway democrats working hard to orchaestrate a stampede for someone without a dime’s worth of difference between her policies on that war, and george bush’s, we can’t afford a string of talking-goody-two-shoes “debates” with puff-piece questions.
As has been pointed out by several people on here, if she and her supporters think last night was tough, what will they do when the republicans start unloading on her?
To my knowledge, if she were a man named Smith, most of her statements about the war, and her votes relative to it, would never pass muster with either the staff or the posters here. For that support, and for supporting Joe Lieberman against Ned Lamont, and for most of her track record in this wretched war, we would all condemn “him” for being a yellowdog democrat. And deservedly so.
With all due respect, I think until now, she’s been given a hell of a pass on some of the toughest issues, most notably, her support for the war, and the huge problem that will cause her (and us) in the general election, if she’s nominated. That looks to be changing, and it should.
We need to talk about issues. About where the candidates stand, specifically, and we need to think about what kind of campaign they can and will run if we nominate them.
And if pinning each of them down, INCLUDING Clinton, on that, means that we’re being “negative”, then, two MONTHS before a primary vote has been cast; I say bring on the “negativity”.
We need to find out who gives us the best chance of winning this election.
No free rides.
Elliott @ 89
I think this has a link to it:
http://www.marginalrevolution……voice.html
If Bush keeps telling all these lies about Congress and doing administrative orders and such, they might get pissed. If they get pissed enough, they might do something he doesn’t like. Like set the table.
Thanks, Jane, for defending Hillary when its appropriate.
I can appreciate the predicament of “the boys:” very little they have done so far has dented Hillary’s campaign HumVee. Does not the standard campaign playbook say that when an opponent is ahead, you can’t gain much ground by being nice, and the only way that seems to work is to go negative, and hope something sticks?
Obama apparently wanted to conduct a “nice” campaign. So what happened? After an incredible early start, his trendline is down.
Edwards in 2006 conducted a “nice” campaign, and wound up helping Kerry hardly at all. His campaign this year has been fairly positive, and I loved his “No timelines? No funding! No excuses!” theme to end the war. But that hasn’t caught fire the way they hoped.
On the other hand, Dodd went “negative” by threatening to put a “hold” on the Senate FISA bill, and he got more contributions in the next 24 hours than he’d received in the previous month.
So what are “the boys” supposed to do?
Bob in HI
Elliott @ 91
What does voice pitch indicate?
The shrill is gone
The shrill is gone away
Hiya Jane. I don’t get it why all those people hate Hillary and still the media all assumes she will be the candidate.
thanks eCHAN, I love that stuff
eCAHNomics @ 89
I’m an alto who can sing most tenor parts.
(just the way it is.)
Sorry, Elliot, if shrill makes you think of shrew.
Coming from a musical point of view, that’s the word that describes her voice when she’s being strident, harsh, penetrating.
Not all bad things to be when you are trying to make a point.
Great diary, Jane.
News Hour just did a piece on the debate and the “damage Hilary did to herself.” They started with folks going after her support for the Cheney/Lieberman Iran ammendment, then went to Matthews’ question on presidential papers and releasing hers (sandbag at a debate)and Obama relatingit to Bush, and closed with the Spitzer debacle before the talking heads.
I hate to say that Dodd was the one that lead the charge to use right wing points & the boys fell for the trap by not standing up for Spitzer.
punaise @ 97
now what, after the shrill is gone?
Elliott @ 97
Probably a lot of ad hocery in it, but also a kernel of truth.
Jane Hamsher @ 53
Hillary and Rudy seem to be the teflon candidates– nothing seems to stick on them, contrary to all expectations.
Bob in HI
… @ 1
Indeed, Last nights pile on was a joke!
Elliott @ 103
B B King
I heard something about Kucinich in the debate, a little while ago. Why didn’t they start the UFO question by asking if he saw the same UFO as the almost-Jesus Ronald Reagan?
Excellent read Jane. Thanks. Hi everyone.
Thanks for the outstanding post, Jane!
Loo Hoo. @ 94
the impeachment table?
punaise @ 97
Oh, punaise, you are such a shrill seeker.
SnarkaPUMPKIN @ 96
Aloha, Missie!
I’ve only begun to read the transcript, and though Clinton’s driver’s license comments were pretty inept on the page, she did hang on under attack and got out in the news today to support the underlying policy of getting undocumented people into the system to protect the drivers and taxpayers of New York.
On this score, Dodd was worse than abysmal, Edwards did not address the policy but attacked Clinton’s insiderism and character, and Obama use a right wing frame to attack Clinton as a flip flopper while also coming out in support of the underlying policy.
I need to read the whole thing, and I recognize the difficulty in trying to take on the front runner while simultaneously avoiding right wing attacks when a) she’s had almost everything thrown at her by the right wing over the last 15 years b) the questions were put by the right wing defense contractor media.
I’ll want to read more closely to see how well the challengers avoided right wing frames. I’ve seen the general descriptions that there was widespread failure on that front but I want to check it out for myself in detail.
I see Dodd making the “electability” argument explicitly, as did Richardson, while Edwards made it less directly by talking about Clinton’s negatives – not quite saying she could not get elected, but raising the question of who was more likely to succeed.
But I need to read more.
I have no problem with people attacking the front runner, and it is of course a double standard and unfair that Clinton, as a woman, faces brutal misogyny if she defends herself with any vigor. Jackie Robinson had the same problem in another context, and it’s absolutely unfair.
I need to see what people actually said. I’ve printed out the transcript and hope to read it before bed.
I have never heard ’shrill’ used as anything but as a negative….annoying or irritatingly high-pitched and piercing. Many politicians take voice lessons to lower their pitch..among other reasons.
I have one question: Why do the Dem candidates continue to take part in these debates that are rigged? Are they that desperate for the limelight or is Russert & Williams the best they can rate?
Hi ccmask. Are you going to be able to come on Saturday?
Hiya CTuttle! Your kids going out trick-or-treating?
Loo Hoo. @ 117
Where loohoo?
OT..I heard this on NPR..Vokey was very good..now he will be ” a phoney soldier”
Kos
yes, snarkapumpkin. Do we know you? *g*
esseff33 @ 115
I will need that class and the no-lisp class and the no-giggle class.
Hugh – busted. cheap shrills.
Loo Hoo. @ 122
No one said hi so I took off the costume. Kept the mask. :)
punaise @ 107
Eagles
esseff33 @ 115
Well, we all hear Shrill in our own ears.
She sounds Shrill to me, sometimes.
There’s a lot of stuff involved in how we Hear Things.
ccmask @ 118
Wahoo’s Fish Tacos
1862 Placentia Ave.
Costa Mesa
Noonish. It’s going to be fun! All pups welcome.
Pachacutec @ 114
pach – did you see my comment up thread? c-span2 at 9pm edt. tone and body language aren’t on the transcript page.
SnarkaPUMPKIN Cassie @ 124
can’t believe no one said “BOO!”
1,643 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Sister Jane, yes the “double standard” you describe is unfair and I would actually take up the cudgel for Mrs. Clinton if I thought that “the piling on” last night and the ongoing criticism from the progressive and mainstream Democrats (as opposed to the fascist wingnuts) came from some sort of demand that she be more than is expected of any other candidate advancin’ themselves to lead the “free world”. But this is simply NOT the case of a double standard, dear…the criticisms I hear from Democrats, progressives and the other candidates result from three things: 1. Mrs. Clinton’s proximity to the very forces of money and power that threaten democracy and Democrats 2. her history of being unable to use her position either as de facto or as elected to lead on any issue without equivocating or representing factions of power rather than of popular will 3. her lack of an identifiable politics which can be related to a constituency separate from political tactics.
Mrs. Clinton has political skills, powerful funding sources, and a public persona but she has no politics and she appears to be willing to sacrifice any principle or person to advance her own political interest and the interest of her corporate benefactors. This, not some double standard, is from whence criticism of Mrs. Clinton comes …I just fear that the “piling on” may be too late.
Oh Al Gore where are you when we need you??!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER FASCISM HAS MANY FACES!!
Elliott @ 91
you folks are too quick for me. Just remember Don’t think of what or how something is being said when watching the debates, but of what’s talking. is it malice? Ignorance,? Pride? Calculating ambition? somehow i am becoming comfortable with Hillary.
Loo Hoo. @ 127
Or else come to Texas and go camping in Georgetown with the CenTex Firepups.
Loo Hoo. @ 127
Is that close to Lake Placid?
selise @ 129
thanks. i’ll see if i can get the tv tonight!
SnarkaPUMPKIN Cassie @ 125
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!! Good for you!!!
SnarkaPUMPKIN Cassie @ 116
Yep! I’m the designated doler outer, too…! 8-)
CTuttle @ 3
His one question and its about UFO’s. He should have said
“Yep, I and many other Americans have seen UNidentified Objects that were Flying. Many people are curious about these phenomenon. Maybe you can tell me what I saw, Timmee? I didn’t see “Little Green Men”. or “Little Green Footballs”. But really, do you think this issue at all compares to the nearly 4000 American soldiers that have died in Bush’s misguided war that he dragged us into in Iraq? Or the 30 million kids that were just stripped of essential health care by the Presidents veto…on a bill the Republicans won’t support? Let’s have a sense of proportion here, Tim! Man…you are screwed up!”
APPLAUSE!
Thanks, Jane.
I (inelegantly) pegged last night’s debate as a political gang rape (not using the term rape in the sexual sense). I was thoroughly ashamed of the juvenile men representing the best of our country. What teaty babies they are proving themselves to be.
NBC and its henchmen sandbagged Senator Clinton and I actually doubt she and her team expected it.
I dislike Edwards as much as some here detest Senator Clinton. What a colossal whiner he is. He deserves to lose.
CTuttle @ 136
I am doing that too. If anybody comes.
Pachacutec @ 114
Sounds like good Halloween reading to me! Lots of spooky stuff . . .
Of course, you may not get much sleep afterwards.
demi @ 80
We’re also brought up to interpret women who exhibit strength as being strident, shrill, etc.
(At least that was the case back when the Grand Canyon was just an arroyo and I was young…)
its not what you say …its how you say it…or frame it…DONT ATTACK
SnarkaPUMPKIN Cassie @ 132
Sweetie, we’d come there, but it’s really far away. Heck, if I go on Saturday it’s gonna be 2 plus hours. From here to Texas? But, you know I love camping. Y’all have a real good time.
Thanks for the invite loohoo. I googled Costa Mesa—Too far away for me. I love how teh google is decorated for the holiday though.
cinnamonape @ 135
Standing on chair, clapping! ;-)
They’re all politicians. What do you expect? You don’t get that far without learning some Kabuki. Denis is unelectable as preznit, but he seems to be the most principled. To be electable you have to do a lotta selling out.
I was on the phone earlier with a friend in Ft. Lauderdale and he had about 40 kids come to the door trick or treating in our 20 minute conversation….I haven’t had one kid yet….boo hoo.
SnarkaPUMPKIN @ 98
I read somewhere that Clinton’s biggest bloc of support is low-income, low-education voters. People who are under-represented on the Internet, but there are a lot of them. (Happy Birthday!)
TeddySanFran @ 47
Well, that’s the ‘Clinton bl*wj*b’ vote sewn up, then
;>)
Frankly, I don’t hate HRC…I view her as the ‘good cop’ in the current corporate electoral duality being offered, the ‘bad cop’ to be whatever empty suit is left standing after the Republican primary.
She is not vociferous enough in her ‘opposition’ to what the fascists in our midst are proffering, however.
Meanwhile, let’s have a safe, mature Halloween out there.
;>)
CTuttle @ 11
Actually he belief that UFO’s are alien space craft (or something even more odd) is pretty high. It might get Kucinich some votes!
But get this 33% of the country believe in ghosts…so the numbers of those who believe either in UFO’s or ghosts is higher than thos that believe in Bush!
BlueMesa @ 148
Not for 4 1/2 more hours, but thanks!
I am zero income and finished a third of the 10th grade, but I am not a Hillary fan.
ccmask @ 147
We’ll get the kids I baby-sit and my friends’ little brothers and sisters. That’s it.
A little late to the thread but a couple of points to make.
For those who think Giuliani beats her up in a general election match, check out the Y2K NY Senate race. All the punditocracy at the time was saying that Rudy would beat her up. Until she got in the race. His cancer made a convenient excuse for him as his negatives and the polls showed her mopping the floor with him.
And for what it’s worth, polls show her with higher positives and lower negatives than Mitch McConnell in Kentucky. Apples and oranges I realize but if Senator Clinton were so hated in places like Kentucky, even Mitch would beat her. He doesn’t.
The thought is there will come a time, perhaps not too awfully long from now, when we might want to think about surrounding our support around a single candidate to be the Democratic president in 2009.
Sally@139:
John Edwards has apologized for HIS vote to authorize the invasion at least 5 times that I know of. He doesn’t dance around it; he just says: “I was wrong.”
He has not taken a dime from AIPAC, or from any defense contractor.
When I saw him speak a couple of months ago he said:
“If I’m elected, the day I take office I will close the prison at Guantanamo.”
While he has not said he will bring all of the troops home immediately, he has promised to have all combat troops out of Iraq within a year, if he’s elected.
He has consistently and accurately pointed to the obscene influence which the kind of lobbyists on whom Hillary Clinton depends, wield in Washington, as one of the biggest problems we face, and he’s promised to deal with it.
If he wins the nomination, independents and conservative democrats sick of george bush and his bloody incompetence, will be much more likely to turn out for him, that they would for Hillary.
Is this not enough to prefer him to a candidate who doesn’t think, and won’t STATE that invading Iraq was a mistake?
facts maybe debated without calling it pile on
Oklahoma kiddo @ 154
Gore :))
I think the two anti-Hillary statements that have irritated me the most are:
1) Hillary has gotten were she is by riding on Bill’s coat-tails
2)Hillary has never had a real job in her life. (CHS and LHP might differ that practicing female atty doesn’t have “real job”.
ccmask @ 132
Try Yahoo maps.
SnarkaPumpkin, your youthful exhuberance lifts my spirits.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 152
After the Primary…
solai @ 159
Thanks!
OkKiddo; we’ve got plenty of time, and plenty of primaries for that.
What’s the rush?
(Evil grin. :o) I KNOW what the rush is; the longer the primaries go on, the more Iraq will intrude as the same HUGE issue that it’s going to be in the general election. And that, Sen. Clinton cannot stand to have happen. She wants to avoid Iraq coming into play every bit as much as the GOP wants to avoid it.)
CTuttle @ 160
I like your suggestion.
SnarkaPUMPKIN Cassie @ 161
The GF wanted to know if she could vote for the best dog costume?
ccmask @ 143
For some reason I was thinking you were SoCal.
NBC/MSNBC should be ashamed of employing Tim Russert.
dakine01 @ 151
Ghouliani has a volatile personality. I think the way to beat him would be to provoke him until he explodes. Don’t think it would be that hard to do. Don’t know if Hillary will take that tack. She’s too earnest.
Steve-AR @ 164
Sure. Just click my name and leave a comment.
Tanbark @ 162
No rush my friend. No rush at all. ;0)
ccmask @ 156
That’s such sweet music.
eCAHNomics @ 167
That’s what the VP nominee is for anyway. And I imagine Big Dog wouldn’t be too averse at provoking Rudy as well.
New Jane upstairs
dakine01
Who do you think Hillary would pick as VP?
eCAHNomics @ 174
Wes Clark?
CTuttle @ 3
You mean the one Ann Coulter rode in on!
TeddySanFran @ 25
I agree.
I’ve been a proud feminist since the early 70s and I’m really quite shocked at the number of Hilliary supporters who feel the need to hide behind her gender when the going gets tough. You don’t get to tell people that men and women are equal and that gender should not be a barrier to higher office but then use gender as an excuse when things aren’t going your way. I think that kind of talk weakens Hilliary. It doesn’t strengthen her.
As James Carville said today, she had a bad night. He didn’t fault Edwards, Obama or any other candidate. As a matter of fact he said it was to be expected that the other candidates would go after her as they should when they are trying to catch the frontrunner. I agree.
damn. looks like c-span2 has pulled the debate, and now has some lame debate “analysis” at 9 instead.
Coupl’a bullet points
* I didn’t watch it … too many … sheesh
* I won’t be voting for Hill (stand on issues) unless something drastic happens, like Ghoooliani getting the GOP nomination.
* They did virtually the same thing to Dean four years ago
* I’m vacillating between Kucinich, Dodd, and Edwards
NEVER FORGET NBC MSNBC= GE…largest defense contractor
Dakine01; excuse me for asking, but what polls show her running so well in Kentucky?
And who paid for them?
Because, a few days ago, her staff “released” an “internal poll” that showed her with substantial support from republican women. :o)
It pretty much met with catcalls and hoots.
Which I think was appropriate.
Clinton, her staff, and the beltway democrats who want her nominated, all know perfectly well that she is incredibly vulnerable on the electability issue, and they are frantic to head it off at the pass.
Any polls that are trotted out showing how well she’s doing with conservatives, should be looked at long and hard. And I think that the democrats who think she’s a political train wreck waiting to happen for us, will do just that.
Steve-AR @ 175
i’ve been willing to bet money (small amounts only *g*) on it for some time.
eCAHNomics @ 174
I really have no clue to be honest. I know a lot of folks feel Evan Bayh or Vilsack are options. It could be Clark but I don’t think so as he is Arkansas so no real extra there. Richardson might be good but reality, I think it will depend on what and who she thinks will offer a balance to her. And I don’t necessarily mean geographical balance either.
Tanbark @ 181
BlueGrassReport.org quoting from some polling done for the Lexington Herald-Leader/WTVQ. Mostly on McConnell but Hillary is mentioned.
Tanbark @ 181
I live in Kentucky and I sure don’t see a lot of support for Hilliary. Perhaps they polled the establishment Dems in office instead of the people? Most of the establishment Dems always back whoever is the frontrunner because they are afraid not to. Sad but true. I’d love to know the pollster on this one.
I rarely comment on this blog, though I am a faithful reader.
But I have to say, “Thank you.”
Last night’s performance by “the guys”, including Russert, was shameful.
DaKineo1; thanks for the link. ‘preciate it.
But, did you see how many people voted in the “poll”; specifically, how many voted on question of Clinton V. McConnel?
531. That’s: Five-hundred-and-thiry-one.
Just for reference of numbers-of-people-responding, remember that a couple of weeks ago, here at the Lake, John Edwards crushed everyone with 43% of 2300 votes. Hillary came a poor 4th, on a PROGRESSIVE site, with plenty of people to defend her against the “dogpile”.
:o)
Are you wondering why I’m skeptical of a tiny red-state vote of 531 people which shows her running ahead of Mitch McConnell? :o)
What is with the Social Security BS? Russert is the villiage idiot on SS. SS is the WRONG issue for Obama or any Dem. 3rd rail loser. Several of the Dems at the debate damaged themselves by playing along with Russert. SS is solvent. There is NO problem.
sadly yes @ 180
And defense contractors have been contributing to Hillary’s campaign. Given more campaign money to her than to republican candidates. I can’t wait to see how President Hillary is going to please the defense industry and the democratic party peaceniks at the same time. Maybe she’ll push for an Anti-War Bomb.
dakine01 @ 183
Bayh has huge union support in IN that would spill into OH. In case you haven’t noticed IN and OH are at the center of union mfg job loss in the US. Note that in 2006, IN had 3 pickups for Dems, including South Bend-Kokomo where Delphi (GM parts) has gone south. Bush carried IN by about 60% in 04 but Bayh outpolled Bush and carried his senate race by over 60%. If we would have had OH in 2004……..
Tanbark @ 187
It was not “Clinton vs McConnell.” It was a comparison of the per cent vote that Clinton was receiving when matched against all the various R candidates in a red state. The point that the blogger was making was that Clinton, matched against each of the Rs, pulled at least 47% while the incumbent senior senator, when matched against various potential rivals for ‘08, couldn’t pull 46%. As I said it was apples and oranges but was to show that maybe Senator Clinton will do better than many folks perceive when she is pulling better percentages than the incumbent senator of the opposite party. It was strictly Kentucky against Kentucky. The polls done here and elsewhere in the blogosphere, although with larger universes, are probably not as accurate as one statistically devised for the target universe.
Sorry. There were 5 pairings in the polling, none of them were Clinton V. McConnell.
Clinton V. Giuliani was 47-45 in her favor, but again, it was 531 registered voters, and if that’s a “statewide poll”, then someone needs to hire a new polling company.
This thing of how Clinton will run with conservatives; that is, not just republicans, but independents AND even democrats, is a time-bomb for her, her campaign staff know it, and I’m afraid that in their desire to defuse it, they will stoop to some very Rovian tactics.
If we are going to win this election, then it HAS to be debated, not swept under the rug in some “hands off Hillary!” panic mode.
And debating it is what we’re doing now. :o)
Thanks, everyone. :o)
Rube Cretin @ 18
Pachacutec @ 114
John Edwards did not attack Hillary’s character. If he was to attack her character he would say she was a warmonger who voted, again, for preemptive attacks on another country (Iran) which would benefit her largest Wall Stree contributors.
DaKine01; no matter what kind of “fruit” were polled, there were only about 530 of them in every pairing.
And for purposes of determining how well a given candidate will run, that aint much of an orchard. :o)
Tanbark @ 194
If I’m remembering my statistics classes correctly, you do not need to have a large polling sample to determine the information the poll is designed to elicit. There is a margin of error and I didn’t catch what it was but you don’t need to have a polling universe of 100K when one of 500-1000 gives you the same numbers.
I did not watch most of the debate last night- took me ages to figure out how to get the msnbc link to work- so I only caught the tail end live.
I am not a Hillary fan- and I’ve said that here before.
But, I must have been listening or watching Hillary’s response to the driver’s license question- which she had very little time to respond to- with different ears and eyes than most others.
I actually thought she did a very good job with her reply, given the complexity of the issue. I have to say, I was impressed. And, imo, Dodd’s answer was AWFUL.
Drivers w/o drivers licenses and no tracking for automobile insurance is one of the reasons CA has such high insurance rates. Maybe that perspective helped me get the point of what Clinton was saying.
Bustednuckles @ 56
Rob Riggles on Jon Stewart’s show the other night.
DaKine, that MIGHT be true if the pollers were INCREDIBLY meticulous, and could somehow arrange for those tiny numbers to come from a totally disparate sample of voters.
That is, school teachers, businessmen and women, coal-miners, poolroom propietors, and the like.
Absent that information, I doubt seriously that their sampling was so conscientious.
But at any rate, I feel like your contention that Hillary might do better in redstate Kentucky than some people think, was hardly supported by quoting a poll of 531 people about what their preferences are.
You could get that at a McDonald’s on a Saturday morning, and it that were the sample, I’d bet an…apple against an orange that…that Hillary would look pretty awful.
Like I said, not just for Hillary, but for all of them, let’s take a hard look at which polls; where from; and who paid for them. :o)
Have I missed coverage of this McConnell shizzola..am I just late to the party:
http://www.kentucky.com/454/story/214167.html
Jane, with all due respect, what’s sad is that you see Hillary as deserving different treatment because she’s a woman. I do not. She can stand up there and take them on based on strength. The moment she changes one aspect of what she has to say or how she says it, she becomes an actor. We’re tired of actors. Be the same person all the time. Have the same positions all the time. Its called being who you are.
I agree that she has become, and in fact was probably born that way, the most manipulative of all the candidates. I believe that she diminishes real women all over who have beating or partnering with men in all fields by being honest, straight forward, smart, and professional…..and with the facts.
Your statements that people should treat her differently because she can’t say the same things in the same way as the men or she’ll be called “shrill”. Howard Dean was called worse, John Kerry to. She is what she is. If fear of being called a name alters who she is or what she has to say, then she isn’t Presidential material.
Tim Russert asked pointed questions of all the candidates. Questions that showed us all how they handle idjits calling them names. He called Hillary on her lie to a constituant on the Social Security cap, he called, and made fun of Kucinich on the UFO nonsense. Edwards called her out, Obama called her out. She should be called out and pinned down on exactly what she means by any statement, they all should. It goes to strength and leadership.
She got flustered at having been pinned down on the driver’s license issue. Just answer the question would be advisable for her to practice. She went after Dodd to deflect her answer. It was a yes or no answer required here. People want to know where she stands. Dodd said where he stands. People who agree with stand with him, people who don’t, won’t. But this “just git over there and stand with Hillary because …” isn’t playing to well… and it won’t.
The “Hillary Haters”, as you call us, are those who want to move this forward out of the bush/clinto regime. That’s all. I want my country back from them. That’s all. We’d like to move on. Forward. We’d like to be true to our Democratic ideals, not just validate the top-down dictation from, apparently the Democratic Party, that “Hillary is the winner and the nominee”.
I don’t hate Hillary. I think she has no basis to run for President other than the fact she’s married to a former President. That doesn’t qualify her in my book. At. All.
She stands up there about HER 35 years experience….. as a first lady, wife of a governor. She stands up there and says “WE” and “Bill did” this or that. The truth is she is claiming her husbands years as President/Governor as her own work. We didn’t elect her, we elected him. What are her qualifications seperate from him?
Mostly, Jane, I’d like your take on why we would want to enable her further? Women are strong individuals, by nature, and I see no need to molly coddle her or make special allowances when she has the strength to deal with it.
I thought that was a great debate and we should have seen this earlier. Pin them down on their answers, all of them.
I do think Chris Mathews should be fired though and it would be better if we could get someone not as smarmy as Russert and Williams to ask questions…. good hard questions.
Its not the General Election yet.
Hillary isn’t perfect, but she has the ability and the drive to have many progressive issues realised if elected. It was good to read Jane’s blog and to know that commenters here are open to the realities and obstacles of actually winning the Presidency. A few months ago, when commenting here about my belief in Hillary’s campaign, I was practically chased away as some kind of nut. Facts on the ground make for sober reconsideration. The stakes are too high to not be open to ideas and the prospect of actually winning.
Thank you, Jane. I couldn’t have said it better.
Jo-Ann @ 200
Look..she has one hellava mountain to climb–she can climb it.
She
Jo-Ann and Portia;
What do you think is going to be the most important issue in the general election?
Sally @ 138
Was that Sally Jesse Raphael?
I’m sorry; it’s late. Let me re-phrase that.
On which issue do you think the republicans will be the most vulnerable?
Tanbark @ 155
What Tanbark said!
Tanbark, where to begin??
Republicans are most vulnerable on the issue of fearmongering, lies and disregard of the Constitution. All this fluff of specificity on plans and such pale in comparison to the fact that America is now seen by the world community as just one more rogue country seeking world domination by any means necessary. Every meatball punk in marginal countries feel threatened unless they get a nuke. Those with nukes laugh in our faces. It will tale decades to undo the crimes of the Bush regime. We have nagging national priorities here going begging while Bush pisses money at a lost war.The choice isn’t even close.
Cut the Republican talking points. Spitzer is not “politically toxic”.
If you actually look at the polls, he’s still more popular than any other Albany politician, bar none. People are disappointed that he’s misstepped fighting the NYS legislature, but still support him (and consider the legislature a disaster).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 8
Damn! You must be some kind of DFH! I for one support what you are saying 100%. The issue of Hillary being a women is a non-starter for me. I just…Do. Not. Care.
That means I cut her no slack and if I don’t agree with he policies, as best I can make them out, I will say so.
If that’s teh ‘Pile On’ so be it.
I will, and have done, the same to anyone else running as well.
Ya can’t stand the heat…Get Out of the Kitchen!
And no that’s not a play on gender.
Jo-Ann; I’ll take that as an “Iraq won’t be a big campaign issue.: OK? :o)
And I guess you and I don’t need to discuss the “specificity-fluff” of Iraq anymore.
However, I should tell you that over the next year, the voters are going to have a say in the matter, and THEY might be rather adamant about discussing it.
And if we nominate Hillary Clinton, I fear the conversation might be so…one-sided, that the republican nominee will be able to achieve the miracle of bringing it up to the benefit of the GOP, and I’m sure you can appreciate the specific irony of that.
But, before we cease this, let me ask:
Do YOU think invading Iraq
was a mistake?
(Sorry about the split post.)
Tanbark @ 212
There is no question but that the voters are going to have their say and sooner than you think.
I do not believe Hillary will be the Democratic nominee. And no, I do not need a tinfoil hat.
The electorate is enraged that nothing has been done by the Democrats they elected to stop Bush’s folly in The MeatGrinder.
If Hillary continues to equivocate or worse yet her current position of staying past 2013 becomes known to the base she will be quite simply….
…burnt toast.
Edwards served notice last night that he’s going to take this issue to the voters. That’s all it will take, along with Bob Shrum’s and Mark Penn’s great advice…..
Rube Cretin @ 10
Are you really calling all the male candidates ‘dunces’? That’s rather sexist, isn’t it?
Perhaps someone could pinpoint what questions were anti-Hillary and what was said of her in the debate that was personal or inappropriate for a debate to decide who will become the most powerful political leader in the world.
I missed the first part of the debate, so maybe I missed the really nasty part.
Tanbark,
God I hope you’re right. As for the post, Jane, I’m sorry but the message I’m getting is, vote for Hillary because she’s a victim. Just because Russert is a creep doesn’t mean Hillary should be president. She is a prevaricating, triangulating opportunist.
eCAHNomics @ 14
No no no, it’s her equivocating and ‘bribe’-taking and pandering.
No, wait, it’s her attitude that to merely mention her name is to attack her personally.
No, hold on, it’s that people say she’s short. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Sheesh, she wants all the attention, but despite running for president she doesn’t think she ought to have to face questions.
How is the public to know about her if she doesn’t answer forth-rightly and doesn’t take well to other people telling the public about her behavior, statements, votes, etc. ?
BerkeleyMom @ 15
Are you saying her vote to authorize the war in Iraq wasn’t a mistake?
Are you saying her legislation to ban flag burning wasn’t a mistake?
Are you saying her acceptance of illegal campaign contributions wasn’t a mistake?
Are you saying her vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment wasn’t a mistake?
Are you saying you really don’t care to learn anything about her, so long as you can elect the first woman president?
We Americans deserve better.
Pachacutec @ 114
First, the Republicans attacked the Clintons to tear down Bill and their attacks on Hillary were always slanderous garbage which were personal and had nothing to do with political positions or ideology.
Second, the Dem debate was about policies, votes, positions, consistency (or flip-flopping), campaign contributors (or being bought) and other very relevant things. To say Hillary has faced it all is wrong. She hasn’t. She wasn’t a candidate for senator or president back when the Repubs were attacking most ferociously.
Now Hillary has to deal with substantial issues and, despite having tons of campaign money, her history is showing and she’s being ripped up proper, just as any front-runner should expect.
Can you imagine one of the guys as front-runner and Hillary not ripping into them? She hasn’t been quiet and demure because she won’t attack her opponents. She’s done it because she’s well-known and that’s given her a substantial lead without having to say anything. Staying quiet is part of a strategy to not upset things while she’s winning. Sure, she gives speeches the same as other candidates. But, on policy she waits for Edwards to lead the way and then copies him. She doesn’t want another candidate to be terribly differentiated from her in some way the voters might like. Hers is a calculated strategy of using policy purely for political purposes. That’s horrible. She should stand for something and have her own view on how government should work. That she doesn’t have such a view or simply won’t tell the public where she stands invalidates her as a candidate, in my opinion.
Excuse me, who said she couldn’t fight back? I saw her fighting back and I didn’t notice anything or anyone preventing her from laying them out flat if she had the punch.
Sally @ 138
Does that speak to how well she’d handle being president?
I don’t detest Hillary, but I am curious what you think he ‘whines’ about. The consistent message he’s been speaking to in recent weeks has been the danger of too much moneyed power corrupting our government. Do you consider that silly or irrelevant? I think he speaks for a lot of people.
Just who does Hillary speak for in terms of policy? All I hear about are women who want a female to win. Do her supporters not care what she might do as president?
Americans need a great president and if they can’t take the heat they oughta stay out of the White House.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
Thank you, glad SOMEONE had the stones to say it.
HRC is not my choice because of her politics, and I don’t care if she’s too soft, too bitchy, or anything else.
She represents all the things I detest about elected officials, and the things that have destroyed our constitution and our country.
She’s prowar cuz it’s good for the business of the elite and the stock market.
Her healthcare plans are to appease the insurance companies and the AMA.
There’s more, so much more.
She does NOT have the interests of the masses at heart, and she’s a proponent of international interventionism, militarism and in general, she’s all about funneling the wealth of the masses into the cofffers of her financial supporters.
I could care LESS about any so called debatable issues FDL is giving coverage to about her trials and tribulations as a woman candidate. For god’s sakes, people, Geraldine Ferraro in her time never got this kind of BLIND SUPPORT as HRC is gettng from the not so progressive elite blogosphere.
As others have said, the primary’s are about slugging it out, no holds barred withing the party, and good luck to the winner . . . this HRC campaign is a tea party without any substance full of hunting tricks . . ducks, decoys, and blinds. Like it’s already been decided by the beltway elite, which apparently FDL is a proud sponsor of.
Phreakin Harumph.
Who is the genius who brought Russert on board for these debates, anyway?
Oh blah blah blah…Senator Clinton voted yes on kyl-Lieberman. Thats says it all.
I’ll bet Ol Joe digs Hillary…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21553970/
Hi folks,
Just another friendly reminder: Changing screen names and/or sockpuppeting here at FDL is frowned upon and may be grounds for banning. Thanks!
MarkH@221:
“She’s done it because she’s well known, and that’s given her a substantial lead without having to say anything.”
Perzackly!
So far, this has been about name recognition. Now, the issues are starting to rear their ugly heads, particularly, Iraq. As they damn well should, in this critical year.
The people supporting and defending her seem to be saying:
“We’re so desperate to see a woman nominated for president that we don’t CARE how much she’s supported the war;
we don’t care that by that support she is, by a mile, the candidate least able to hang it around bush and the GOP’S necks and turn it into the huge political advantage it will be in the general election.
We don’t care that we’re part of the marketing of Clinton by the MSM and by the same damn corporate lords who’ve profited so handsomely by the war.
We don’t care that she and the republicans indisputably share one vile, despicable, characteristic: They simply don’t want to talk about Iraq. They both want to sweep it under the rug and to NOT have to pay the political price for having unapologetically created it, and for unapologetically continuing to support it.
The sorry spectacle of so many democrats portraying her as a “victim” of dogpiling, when the unspinnable truth is that she has NEVER spoken out against the war until just before the mid-terms, when the polls were showing that the american people were increasingly disgusted with it, and when she then discovered her inner antiwar self, is depressing to watch.
I ask all of her supporters and defenders on here to consider this:
Since she won the Speaker’s gavel in the House, we have gone after Nancy Pelosi full-bore for her sellout. And rightly so, but the truth is that she has, at least, been openly critical of Bush and the war far more than has Clinton, yet for some reason, there are droves of people who think that when some of us insist on nothing but a fair examination of her track record and on how well she’d run in the general election, then we’re persecuting her. It’s bullshit.
What happened two nights ago was NOTHING compared to what she’ll face in the general, and if we’re going to have a chance to win this election and to salvage something from the years of bloody, savage, idiocy from george bush and the republicans, we’d better nominate someone who is willing and able to define that idiocy, especially Iraq, instead of permitting them to pretend that it doesn’t exist.
It’s worth noting that in the entire lead to this thread, the word “Iraq” did not appear. That was, of course, no accident. When anyone defends Clinton, it’s a radioactive isotope to be avoided at all costs.
The problem is that if we nominate her, that isotope is going to be dropped in HER lap, just as surely and deservedly as it needs to be dropped in the laps of bush and the republican nominee. And make no mistake, it will be. And if the voters see that they only have a choice of tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee on the most important issue of the campaign, they will make us, as the “outs”, pay for it.
The combination of “don’t ask her that!” from her supporters, and the bone-marrow deep reaction to her of conservatives across the board will ruin us.
John Edwards is no rabid lefty (and the republicans can’t portray him as one) but he still “won” a scintiallating victory on FDL, one of the best and most progressive of blogs. It was astounding, but we heard not a word of “well done!” from the staff here, not, to my knowledge a syllable of what this might mean for his chances in the general election.
Likewise, Hillary Clinton ran a poor 4th, with, as I remember, only 10% of the 2300 votes we cast, and if that’s the best she can do on here, why are her defenders ignoring the implications of that for how she would do in an election where across the board, the voters are far more conservative than are we.
Considering her track record and her electability, it just makes no sense to nominate her. Jane’s thread was saying basically “We owe her this for all years the right has bashed her.” I’m sorry, but that’s a prescription for a political disaster for us, and one that will have horrible repercussions for our side for years, even decades, to come. This nomination is way too important to hand it to anyone as a consolation prize, especially someone with Clinton’s track record.
Had to turn off msnbc this am as Matthews ripped her yet another one … open those papers that Bill sealed.
“She’s running on her record. That’s her record so we should see them.” She’s a “flip flopper”
what is wrong with these people – and I’m no Hillary fan – but go after Rudy with his corruption and flip flopping and the rest of the opposition! With digging up all the dirt on Hillary and each other , it’ll be another 4 years of the last 8!
Cassie; Matthews and some of the rest of the MSM, AND some of the repubs, are so sure she’s got the nomination that they can’t help jumping the gun and, with their knee twitching uncontrollably, screaming:
“Bill Clinton’s penis! Bill Clinton’s penis!”
:o)
Trust me; it’s only the beginning, if we nominate Clinton. Finding a substantive issue like….say, IRAQ! Will be like looking for Jimmy Hoffa. :o)
Piling is the blind apologists who defend her have it both way responses. She wants credit for White House experience – fine, but don’t hide the records WHICH SHE VERY WELL HAS CONTROL OVER – Come on, if I wanted to be blind and naive, I would be another party.
She also demonstrated Edwards’ point when she back(and forth) peddled on the drivers license issue.
Please spare us this Wingnut defense.
“respect that [Clinton] understands the architecture of a right-wing attack, and the fact that you simply do not repeat Republican talking points or you will only reinforce your opponent.”
Really, she knows this? Is that why she’s saying repeatedly that we’re safer now in 2007 than we were before the disastrous invasion of Iraq? Why she’s voting for Lieberman-Kyl?
I think Clinton’s relentless reinforcement of the right-wing talking points that will destroy our country is far, far worse than any political opponent reinforcing talking points that will only hurt Hillary.
YMMV.
Hi, I’m a long time lurker and this is my third post here, so slowly but surely I am being sucked in. ;)
I think that Hillary Clinton’s driver’s license “gaffe” is not only not going to hurt her, she will be able to turn it to her advantage. It reminds of Rick Fazio’s “sign this pledge” stunt when he debated her. At first, it was considered a devestating blow to Hillary (the Repugs were practically dancing in the streets over it). then the poll numbers came in. Suprise, suprise, it turned out that voters were turned off by what Fazio did, and that women were leading the anti-Fazio charge. Hillary’s people have always been able to transmute any attack on her to an attack on women in general. (Already we are seeing this argument develope across the blogosphere and in the comments – see the “gang rape” comment up thread). I have no doubt that we will see interviews where women disgustedly describe John Edwards as reminding them of “that ex-boyfriend I had that seemed so nice but actually a passive-aggressive creep – always manipulating me into looking like a shrill, hysterical bitch whenever I tried to call him on his shite.” It’s a toll in Hillary’s arsenal that she has been able to deploy very effectively. (In some ways, the over-15 years of right-wing hate frenzy over her works in her favor – she can always cast critics into the same unreasoning “HillaryHatuh” mold as them). It will be up to the other candidates to figure out how they can point out Hillary’s very real flaws as a candidate without getting ju-jitsued by her strong ‘I’m Every Woman” undercurrent.
Tam1MI—
Thanks for this analysis and welcome to the Lake! Hope we hear more from you.
I’m not at all settled on a presidential candidate yet. Living in the late primary land of Maryland, I will have very little say in the nominating decision. Even now, while any primary or caucus is still months away the MSM and Beltway Brahmins have decided that Senator Clinton will be the Democratic candidate.
There is much to admire about her, yet I have several big doubts too. The unfortunate truth for whoever is elected president is the president’s agenda will be defined by the necessity of cleaning up after the dark legacy of Bush’s incompetence and proto-fascistic governance. Initiating any new policies will be overshadowed by the imperative of erasing the damage perpetrated by Bush/Cheney & Co. I am not convinced that Senator Clinton as President will be sufficiently committed to restoring the balance of powers between the 3 co-equal branches of government, as well as fully restoring the rule of law and the primacy of the Constitution. I have not heard her unequivocal repudiation of Mukasey’s statement that there are times that the President does not have to obey the law.
As for the Republican meme that Hillary is the candidate to beat, don’t forget that Karl Rove may be out of the White House but he is not out of politics. He is the one fomenting this viewpoint. He will be the one behind the batshit insane right-wing nuthuggers and their shitstorm of vile hate against her. It will be sad to see the fecal matter Rove has collected, fermented, and augmented all on his own spewed forth against Senator Clinton and the entire Democratic Party.
Tanbark @ 92
Tanbark as usual you nailed it. People this woman supported Joe Leibermann. That’s all you need to know about where she stands..
Tanbark @212 and213, I do think invading Iraq was a mistake. But I also understand that Bush/Cheney made a false and relentless case against Iraq that has been proven false. There was the 9/11 anger that permeated the country, and until today, Cheney still links Saddam with 9/11. Hillary never thought Bush would rush to war. I blame Bush/Cheney, Rice, Powell, and the neocons on a road to Armageddon and Rapture for Iraq and for their drive to blow up Iran. From your earlier posts, I see that your mind has been made up, and there’s no dialogue possible on objectively discussing Hillary Clinton. You have that right and I appreciate the conversation.
Jo-Ann, you’re right that I have made my mind up that the current democratic frontrunner is, for us, a political disaster waiting to happen, and that she in no way deserves my support, but to the contrary deserves to be asked the tough questions that she and her supporters do NOT want to be asked.
I appreciate YOUR responses, and in no way is this personal, but I have to ask, since you feel (very correctly, I think) that invading Iraq was a mistake, how can you defend a candidate who does NOT think so. Or, at the very least, will not say it?
The complaints from some of her supporters that those of us who are insisting on pointing out her positions are “repeating republican talking points” is laughable, considering that they’re defending a candidate who has been a parrot for some of the most egregious lies that bush and the warpimps have used to create and to sustain the bloody debacle in Iraq.
For example, as YMMV points out on #232, she is saying that the invasion has made us safer.
Do you agree with that?
Because, unless she is just selfishly talking about the fact that WE haven’t been hit as home since 9-11, I think the worldwide increase in terrorism since bush pulled the trigger utterly gives the lie to that, as well as the fact that invading Iraq has exponentially increased the number of fanatics who want a piece of us, and whom, in the future, are hardly likely to change their minds over the longterm.
Tanbark @238, Hillary says that we are safer in America now, because we know the threats against us now, and are preparing and implementing National Security measures to keep us safe. She never said that going into Iraq has made us safer. Hillary said there are no do-overs with that authorization vote , and that she regrets that Bush used lies and saber rattling to actually send us into Iraq. You need this lack of “mistake” verbiage to help rationalise your distaste for Hillary’s candidacy. Fine, but the world has become dangerous because GWB stole an election, and has been truth challenged from birth. Why not focus your truth police on going after him?
Tanback, who is the candidate you are supporting and why? It’s a fair question. Nobody’s perfect, and I’m open to your suggestions.
Oops, Tanbark, is what I meant to spell.
Jo-Ann @ 241
How about anybody who trully represent our values. Kucinich/Edward ticket is decent enough for me. Tactically it will be the best democratic ticket because the angle of attack for the rethugs will be much more narrower.
Dear Joanne, your hair-splitting exculpatory explanation ignores a few salient points.
You say: “Hillary says that we are safer in america now because we know the threats against us now.”
Which is precisely the same kind of retroactive time-distortion that bush and his coterie of idjits have been peddling. When they invaded Iraq, they manufactured a much more serious threat, and then, in a time-loop worthy of the mad-hatter, they point to the resurgence of Al Queada there, and the legitimate resistance of the Iraqi people to a foreign occupation and say:
“See! Look how dangerous they are! That proves we were right!”
It’s obscene in it’s distortion of truth and of time, and I don’t care WHO says it.
Are you/she saying that Bush had to invade Iraq to “know the threats against us”? Or that if Bush had NOT invaded Iraq that we would have been in ignorance of them? I find that bizarre, after 9-11.
Also, as I said earlier, you and she ignore the fact that the “threats against us” have undoubtedly increased greatly as a RESULT of the invasion. Pre-invasion, the numbers of people threatening us was not nearly as high as it is now. Do you agree or disagree with that?
At any rate, for her to say that we’re safer now, is EXACTLY what the bushmasters are claiming. How can you second it?
I think it’s arrant bullshit when they say it, and I think it’s arrant bullshit when she says it.
And do I need to point out that when the candidate whom you support says it, she is playing right into the hands of the people whom, if she wins the nomination, are going to beat her like she was a rented mule? How can you possibly try to whitewash a piece of bushspeak like that?
Your explanation of Hillary’s refusal to state flatly and unequivocally that the invasion was a mistake, is just…lame; and every time someone defends her, it’s a perfecty legitimate question that begs to be asked.
“She never said that going into Iraq has made us safer.” This is nothing but legalistic hair-splitting.
Perhaps not, but with worldwide terrorism having at least doubled as a result of the invasion, she has never troubled herself to say that the invasion has made us less safe, and the evidence is piling up that it has. Or do you disagree with that?
“Why not focus your truth police on going after him?”
All in good time, and I’m already doing it, on a conservative bluegrass site where I have 12,000 posts over the last five years, with approximately 10,000 of them being political in nature, and practically everyone of them critical of bush and his supporters and the kneejerk conservative worldview which they espouse.
But right now, the critical thing for us is to get a candidate who can go after bush and the republicans with both barrels on the issue on which they are most vulnerable. And that is Iraq.
And for Hillary Clinton, since she won’t even pronounce the war in Iraq for the miserable debacle it is, and since she has steadfastly refused to apologize for helping to authorize it, that is simply not possible. If she tries it, they will point to her votes and her statements and that will be that, as far as our having Iraq to beat them with, goes.
It’s an issue that we HAVE to have to win this election, and Clinton has voluntarily abdicated her right to use it, and whether you realize that or not, doesn’t make it any less true.
There is a rank irony in your begging us to give Hillary a pass on her statements and positions, and to go after bush and his policies, when she has so miserably failed to do the exact same thing.
If there weren’t so much riding on this election it would be laughable to hear that.
I support John Edwards. For me, it’s his nomination to lose. I’ve seen him speak, and it was impressive. He didn’t split hairs or dance around his authorization vote. He ate it. He’s done it numerous times, and here’s the capper, Jo-Ann; he’s going to have to do it some more, too, because if he doesn’t, he won’t get either the nomination or the presidency. That’s how important Iraq is, and he knows it, and unlike Clinton, he isn’t ducking it.
It’s too late now, but riddle me this; why could she not state simply; “I made a mistake, and I regret it.”?
If she does it now, it will re-inforce the growing and entirely justified perception that her positions have little or nothing to do with convictions and leadership, but instead, are just a matter of she and her campaign advisers watching the polls to see which way the wind is blowing, and THEN, pointing that way, herself.
I’ll call her out on her intelligence.
It was a boneheaded political move to “triangulate” to the right…a huge slap in the face to her natural progressive constituency, and that gigantic mistake is the reason she got 236 of 2309 votes cast on a rock-solid progressive site.
While she was oozing to the right, I, and I think a more erstwhile admirers of hers were like:
“My God! What is she thinking?”
The answer, of course, is that she was thinking that she could gain more votes by sliding to the right, than she would lose. If I had been on her staff, I would have been frothing at the mouth, and finally, I would have resigned.
Now, I, and a lot more people, ARE “resigning”. I hope, that in the interest of winning the white house next year, and of keeping control of the House and Senate, that you will resign, too.
Excuse me; truth “policy”…
(On the other hand, having a few truth “cops” around for THIS election is not a bad idea.)
:o)
Thank you for the discussion. I would reverse the Kucinich/Edwards ticket, because I think that too many people perceive Kucinich as a bit of a left-wing kook, and because I believe that John Edwards populist streak is a mile wide and a mile deep. I wish you could have heard him speak in Georgetown, S.C. with me a few months ago.
I walked out of the building and went straight to his table and got some Edwards stickers.
When he said: “If I win the election the first day I’m in office I will close the prison in Guantanamo.” the roar and applause from the crowd in red-state South Carolina was a revelation to me.
He said the things he’s been saying: How trading one bunch of politicians on the corporate dole for another bunch makes no sense.
He pointed out that Clinton wants to make sure the insurance industry is involved in any health-care system overhaul, and then he said:
“I want them OUT of it.” His emphasis, not mine.
He said: “I was wrong to vote to authorize the invasion and it’s something I have to live with for the rest of my life.” which is a pretty good indication of the importance he attaches to what is happening in Iraq.
What possible reason can Clinton have for not making a similar apology?
What the hey…my turn to put up a sound clip.
:o)
Here’s Dolly and EmmyLou and Linda, gettin’ into that fine, slow, torchy, bluegrass tune, “Those Memories”, by Allan O’Bryant, of the Nashville Bluegrass Band.
Sorry about the little glitch in the middle. Still worth the price of admission.
You go, girls. :o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9tDJ0Fenes
tam1MI @ 233
Great post! It is exactly why she hurts women, real women, and the progress we have made. She gives women a bad name using it in this way. It shouldn’t be an issue. She is, thanfully, not “Every Woman”.
Well said!!
Edwards was my second choice for the nomination. But after his attacks on Hillary, of a personal nature, not policy or ideas, he lost me. Desperate man made a desperate jab and lost many who thought he was more than just another selfish pol. He may well help Dems lose the election because he really doesn’t mind using right wing talking points against another Democrat. Well, the joke will be on you if he succeeds in killing the messenger. So, would Rudy be good for you ?
Jo-Ann @ 247
Edwards did not make any personal attack on Hillary at all. None of them did. That’s ludicris to even say. The issue with Hillary is that she voted to give bush the saber rattling Okay to do Iran….. just like she did Iraq.
She might could claim incredible stupidity about not seeing bush was lieing to them them for Iraq, but she cannot do it again for the current lies about Iran. Edwards pointed that out, as did Obama, Kucinich. Fairly and correctly so.
If this Hillary nonsense continues, it just means you want Rudy because they both want to ramp up the fear factor in the general. Edwards and Kucinich want this nonsens stopped.
It all is a moot point if Congress doesn’t start gettin’ after bushco and we see some damn frog marching. Right now they’re losing any hope for any Democratic candidate.
And you cannot possible even be considering Rudy as a contender…. the most he can get is 27%. However, if Congress doesn’t turn it around with their namby pamby attitude right now, the most the dem candidate can get is 11%.
Joanne you say all the right things you’re against in your previous posts….. and Hillary’s actual actions don’t match up. I don’t know how you can square the two.
Lurking Mod – Who is the sockpuppet on this string?
Jo-Ann, if the “messenger’s” message on the hellish misery that bush has created in Iraq (with her unapologetic help) is not a dime’s worth of difference between herself and bush, and if she is demonstrably part of the corporatist philosophy that has brought us to this point (as John Edwards has so accurately been pointing out) and if she is the only politician in the country who can turn a potential landslide for us into a loss or a cliffhanger, then, I say, politically speaking, let’s kill that “messenger” dead as a mackeral.
BTW, Jo-Ann, what rightwing talking points is Edwards using on Clinton? Because if you’re talking about his pointing to how much money she’s taken from big corporations, some of them, beneficiaries of the war, that’s not a republican talking point.
He’s put the knock on her for how close she is to the health-care insurance industry. And that’s not a republican talking point either.
Since he’s running for president, and wants to win, and since Clinton is EXTREMELY vulnerable on the issue of her electability, he’ll probably bring that up soon. He should.
But I’m pretty sure that the republicans would LOVE for the democrats to nominate her, and I don’t think they want to belabor anything that will interfere with that, so I don’t think that’s a GOP talking point, either.
Which GOP talking points did you have in mind?