If one of the cardinal rules of progressive politics is that you never repeat the talking points by which your opponents beat up on your own party, then what are we to think of last night’s Democratic debate, in which a principal tactic used by some of the non-Clintons was to repeat Republican talking points about Hillary Clinton?
I can understand why the non-Clinton Democratic candidates, having watched her pull away in recent national polls (though not in Iowa), feel obliged to challenge Senator Clinton on the merits of her positions, her Senate votes on Iraq and Iran, the soundness of her ideas, judgments and statements in contrast to their own. Drawing these contrasts is certainly legitimate, and it probably helps voters make up their minds, though it’s frankly still a mystery to me why voters like or dislike and eventually come to favor one candidate over another.
But the argument that Clinton in unelectable because her “negatives” are too high — that she’s so disliked Americans won’t vote for her — has always seemed one of those unproven Republican talking points that I suspect they only wish were true, even while they ignore the margin of her last Senate election victory. To be sure, early polls have shown high negatives for Clinton, but it’s also true that part of that has been driven by 15 years of incessant vilification by a right wing unable to cope with a strong woman candidate, a liberal or anyone who had the temerity to tackle health care reform before its time. There has always been something deceptive and despicable about the rightwing attacks on the Clintons, the dishonorable Starr prosecutions and the unrelenting, but unsuccessful efforts to link the Clintons to Whitewater “corruption.” Are the Democrats now to feed that hate-filled frenzy by hinting those are valid arguments, or by making undifferentiated attacks claiming, with nothing more specific, that because she swims in America’s money-drenched politics, she is so inherently corrupt as to disqualify her, but not them?
The Republicans can be expected to try this again, but their motivation is as much diversion as anything. What I suspect is that all of the Republican front runners have significantly higher “negatives” — and deservedly so — than Hillary Clinton or most of the Democrats. Wasn’t there a poll not long ago that tested how many voters would refuse to vote for each candidate — and Hillary turned out to have the smallest problem on that score? [Update: see this comparative "negatives" poll. (h/t cinnamonape)]
The Republican right wing has been mindlessly fixated on its dislike of the Clintons for over 15 years. But the high approval ratings Bill Clinton held even during impeachment tells us that the right wing hatreds do not automatically transfer to the general electorate. And yet the right apparently believes that if they repeat the “Hillary can’t win because everyone hates her” mantra often enough, and have it amplified by the Establishment talking heads, the inevitable debate question, and an all too unquestioning media, it can move from mantra to self-fulfulling prophecy. If that’s the strategy, why are prominent Democrats feeding that theme?
If they want to talk about “negatives,” perhaps Democrats should note that the Republican field is littered with candidates awash in “negatives” — important ones. We find men who, like George Bush, are grossly uninformed and even less curious, and who, like George Bush, hold dangerous, authoritarian views about government’s power over individuals, along with arrogantly imperialist views about how American should interact with the world. We see political chameleons — Guiliani, Romney, McCain — who abandon long-held principles and openly pander to those they once abhorred. Can anyone trust these people with our national security or anything else that matters?
At a time when the American people are crying out for effective, honest and fair government, the Republican candidates come across as mostly anti-government, biased against the middle class and the poor, and especially immigrants. Americans respond to tolerance, but these men are intolerant Christianists, sometimes anti-non-Christian and often anti-science. And to a public sickened by lawlessness, these men come across as anti-Constitution, arguing the President is above the law. Most are indifferent to how America must look when it sanctions torture, rendition, indefinite imprisonment without habeas corpus. Where the public wants accountability and limits on abusive powers, the Republicans support unchecked spying, amnesty/immunity for lawbreakers and aggressive wars.
In short, the Republican candidates are walking billboards for “negatives” that could well make them — not Hillary Clinton — unelectable. They personify virtually every character trait that a large majority of the Americans have now rejected and want to see removed from the White House. And their only plausible strategy for winning in 2008 is to engage in personal character assassination of the Democratic candidate, hoping to turn off and drive away an electorate that is not merely willing but anxious to throw the Republican bums out.
I can’t think of any reason why any Democratic candidate should help the Republicans keep their last hopes alive. Clinton, like any politician who has actually tried to accomplish something against the political tide, has “negatives,” but I think the notion that they’re disqualifying or make her unelectable, or that she can’t overcome them is just nonsense; it flies in the face of her own history, her struggles, and her steady rise in national polls. And I think it’s a mistake for any of the Democratic candidates to buy into this, perpetuate it, and enable it, no matter how badly they want to be President.
Photo: Clinton and Obama at Democratic Debate, Drexel University, Tim Shaffner/Reuters



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Caw-caw… G’morning, Scarecrow!
-MS
Zed.
Morning Scarecrow.
Missed it by THAT much!
Chris Dodd is dead to me
Good morning Scarecrow!
Good morning. Excellent post. I agree with it entirely.
Watching Edwards/Obama gang up on the only lady up there was pathetic and desperate-who would have thought they want to be president so bad! I really could not believe the dems would set up a circular firing squad for one of their own. Thank you scarecrow for your apt observations.
Your post brings to mind the fact that many people I know – including my girlfriend – put out that same line: she’s unelectable. Could it really be that so many are spouting this because of what they read and hear in the media. And, if so, is the media really so right-wing biased?
I’d not have thought so even five years ago…
HRC is not now my first choice, tho’ at one point, she was (and I’ve voted twice for her for senator). But I will admit that she is looking better and better. By the way, did I imagine it, or was Biden coming to her defense over and over last night – could he be a VP possibility?
-MS
Hooey. Richardson is right about personal attack, but strong debate on the issues and the way a person expresses those positions is important to the primary process. This is tame tot eh full blown Republican attack machine. They will eviserate Clinton. She is all over the place, she will not take a position where needed. SHe is in short Bush-lite. We need someone who will take the gloves off with the republicans and take a position against the Bush Foreign Adventurism.
Hillary is not it she has sided with that adventurism all too often.
I’m so sick of this “let’s you ‘n him/her fight” meme continually spewed by the Village idjits that I could just spit! Dims that buy into it are displaying even less brain cells than those calling for it.
Did I sleep through the festivities last night in Philadelphia or did my hearing leave me momentarily? Did Brian or Timmy mention FISA or the Telecom immunity question? Someone please tell me they did. Timmy’s question on “a pledge” to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon was the most idiotic statement of the evening and my hat is off to Denny K for the way he answered it.
In the debate last night the NBC team, especially Russert, played an active part in assisting the non-Clinton candidates attack Hillary through the questions they asked, especially at the beginning of the debate. Is that a proper role for NBC? I don’t think so.
Negative is here to stay. And when you put forward YOUR position, you contrast it to the other’s position and that is “negative”. It goes with the territory.
Of course you can contrast it with the repubs and ignore the dems… and appear more collegial in the process, but perhaps people respond to aggression and the negative stuff make one look tough?
It also helps to have moderators who aren’t reading Republican talking points.
My god, I was just listening to others watching it, and it could have just as easily been Dick Cheney asking the questions.
Does anyone think that the Republicans are not going to scrape up and invent negatives about whoever the Democratic nominee is. I like Chris Dodd, but he has to know that they would scrape up the most ridiculous crap against him if he were nominated. His Peace Corps service would become abject cowardice and collusion with some 2rd world terrorist group.
Alvord @ 11
Yes, I noticed that too. Absolutely reprehensible!
-MS
The immigration issue is the only thing holding the gooper haters together. Thompson will win the primary based on his position.
The MSM interviewers sound mostly like gossip columnists.
We need interviewers like Amy Goodman or Bill Moyers. I can’t watch these asshole pundits. They disgust me.
Alvord @ 11
and what about marginalizing Kucinich and then Tweety’s ridiculous little meme about the Democrats being the arty of UFO’s..
Sorry guys but I disagree. If you have something that is true you should bring it up. If it is not true the person bringing it up will suffer. If it doesn’t stick then you have just eliminated a talking point by demonstrating that it doesn’t work and if it does stick then maybe that person is not the right candidate.
today rudi said he won the debate because everyone was talking about him…
no one would have been talking about him if the gooper moderators had not brought him u.
fake news
this isn’t about the issues or facts that matter.
Katherine Graham Cracker:
With all due respect (I mean that!) it seems to me that Kucinich sort of marginalizes himself. I would vote for him in a sec, but (not meaning to contradict my position above, or Scarecrow’s point in the post) he REALLY does seem to make himself unelectable. Or so it seems to me…
Hope I haven’t become “infected” by media bias.
-MS
Morning all. Missed the debate so am only getting the hearsay from the Times. My uninformed take on all this is that Senator Clinton is walking a tightwire — as the leading and (so far) likely candidate, she can’t go too progressive because focus groups tell her that the American people aren’t there yet. None of us like that, but it’s the country we live in. At least Edwards and Dodd are occupying the empty space and moving the Overton Window towards our positions. A second point: apart from getting most (all!) the troops out of Iraq, it isn’t clear how to clean up the mess left us by the present criminal administration. As the presumptive candidate she is forced to be less candid about that disaster than the rest of them, because she will need wriggle room to work on it if she gets elected.
I’ve been impressed with her performance over the past few months: she is getting stronger and her voice is less strident. I think her ‘ear’ is improving as well. She is going up against very tough competition. She will gain from it.
I still prefer Edwards by a big margin as the person with the rhetorical skills to pull the United States through its coming very rough patch.
Thanks for reading my mind and putting it so much better than o was!
watertiger @ 13
I’m reading the stories, but I was flying back from Ohio and missed the live debate, so it’s helpful to hear these reactions. The view of Russert seems to be widely shared.
Going negative on any democratic candidate seeking the nomination is a mistake. That said, Obama’s statement that republicans continue to rail against her because that is fight that they are comfortable with is spot on. Republicans have no issue to rally their base to the polls other than Hillary.
Can some one point out in last night’s debate where Dodd said Hillary was unelectable?
Michael in Park Slope
“With all due respect (I mean that!) it seems to me that Kucinich sort of marginalizes himself.”
I think you are blaming the victim.
1,644 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND ..
Citizen Scarcrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I hope you are not conflating legitimate criticism of Mrs. Clinton with “Republican talking pointz”…because there are plenty of very real problems with Mrs. Clinton’s politics (or lack of them)and her political history (baggage, if you will) not to mention her fully vested corporate sponsors who dictate her political postures. I say “GO FOR IT DEMOCRATS” undress every candidate so that we don’t end up holdin’ a bag that doesn’t have anythin’ in it after the election (like what happened to us sfter this last one).
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T CUT THE BASTARDS ANY SLACK!!
Hillary would be a great president. Just like Scarecrow says, it drives me crazy that these Democrats are picking up on Hillary bashing Repug talking points. How about that “Clinton has a awkward relationship with the truth?” Last night, she gave a decent answer about what she thought about Spitzer’s immigration driving license thing, and they all said they didn’t understand what she thought about it.
The worst is that now all the Repug attacks can be prefaced with “Even Democrats agree,…(insert Hillary slur here).
did all the other D candidates really say clinton was unelectable during the debate?
sy @ 25
Russert quoted Dodd as having stated previously that Hillary’s electability was a problem and asked him to amplify. Dodd soft peddled it, but emphasized several times, in his answer, that electability was an important issue that Democratic voters must consider.
Sorry folks, but the only Democrat that Rove thinks the Republicans could possibly beat is Clinton. She is also the Democrat that big business is most comfortable with. When you couple that with the cost of BushCo’s failures coming home to roost on the next administration’s watch, and our obvious inability to pay for necessary domestic reforms in healthcare, social security and medicare due to war debt, we’re looking at a near perfect storm hitting the White House in the next cycle, and the Republicans want it to be Clinton staring into that gale.
We’re all ignoring the fact that the Democratic leadership is serving up the dish that Rove ordered.
great bad enough cnn has fat fu=k lou dobbs now he going to be on morning jerk spewing his hate and venom and probably talking about his new hero Chris Dodd
Watt4Bob @ 31
and you are suggesting what?
no matter who the candidate is –there will be a shitstorm of republican crap true or not
katherine Graham Cracker says:
“and you are suggesting what?
no matter who the candidate is –there will be a shitstorm of republican crap true or not”
Well, KGC, you just took the words out of my mouth (and by only seconds, too!).
-MS
In order to immunize the eventual Democratic candidate from Republican slander, we would have to start inventing accusations. Hillary Clinon claims to have invented the internet, issued herself a Congressional Medal of Honor while first lady, practiced satanic worship with Arkansas Highway Patrol, etc. Unless you intend to vote for Guiliani, or whoever, Democrats had better stop feeding lines to Limbaugh.
A classic double bind for Senator Clinton and her supporters.
The Senator desperately needs to assure the electorate that she can torture or invade Iran, just as competently as any constipated, angry white male.
To complain about her being “picked on” kinda queers that pitch.
oh, darn. it looks like i am going to have to listen to this “debate” – and i was so hoping to avoid it.
anyone know of an audio file of the complete “debate” i can download?
…oh and while i’m at it – how about an audio of edward’s latest NH speech?
i haven’t even started looking for either… so, i’m not asking anyone to do my looking for me… just if you happen to already know of a link. thx.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 27
There’s a difference in saying that Hillary shouldn’t be the candidate because she pushed too hard a decade ago for health care reform, or is too liberal — self defeating arguments for Dems to make — and saying that Hillary’s health care proposal now does not go far enough in dealing with the insurance problem. From there, it’s legitimate to ask whether any candidate’s heavy reliance on insurance industry contributions is bound to compromise how he/she conducts the negotiations to come. It’s a fine line, but the temptation to dog whistle to rightwing tunes is what I’m concerned about.
hate2haggle @ 10
No, you weren’t asleep. There were no constitutional or civil liberties-related questions at all! Instead, they were asked meatier questions about UFOs and Halloween costumes. NBC has fallen a long way.
This is something that I think the Dems should be hammering on constantly, with one voice. Instead of letting themselves be painted as the “weak on national security” party, they should be painting the administration and the Republicans as the “weak on Constitutional principles” or the “weak on civil liberties” party.
The debate was more about provoking tension between the candidates than about finding out what they really stand for.
Hillary would be a great president.
IMHO she would be an awful president who, by virtue of her need to be “tough”, will attack someone, anyone, as soon as she gets a chance.
Sticking with the party line is how Bush got elected – we don’t need any more of that. We should evaluate our candidates with an honest eye and a clear sense of what is beneficial and proper. If that means agreeing with the opposition beacuse what they say is the truth, then so be it.
Hillary is a follower – not a leader. It appears that she is trying to play the middle of the field (pro-war Democrat/Progressive), in order to look tough. If she will bend the truth in reaction to such weak pressure (hawkishness is yesterday’s faux virtue du jour), she’ll bend to similar pressures from the right.
Edwards and Kucinich don’t bend so easily.
Edwards/Kucinich ‘08.
I think it’s a cardinal rule that the less candid a candidate is and the more they are able to obfuscate and triangulate all the while appearing not to do so makes Hillary hard to beat. Please Al, save us.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..-rightrail
From the Los Angeles Times
Obama’s gospel mistake
He can’t have it both ways on gay issues in the black community.
By David Ehrenstein
October 31, 2007
Politics have provided gay Americans like myself with no end of schadenfreude in recent years, what with the antics of Mark Foley, Larry Craig and other I’m-not-gay Republicans. But last weekend, a competing Democratic farce debuted: Barack Obama’s three “Embrace the Change” concerts featuring Grammy-winning “ex-gay” gospel singer Donnie McClurkin.
All the characters in this melodrama played their roles to the hilt. Gay-rights organizations demanded that McClurkin be dropped. Numerous bloggers cast doubt on the fullness of McClurkin’s “recovery.” Obama’s campaign staff hastily added a gay minister to give an opening prayer. But it was McClurkin who dominated the event, claiming before an audience of about 2,000 Sunday in Columbia, S.C.: “I don’t speak against the homosexuals. I tell you that God delivered me from homosexuality. No matter what blog you read, let me tell you, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature!” (For all of McClurkin’s religious talk, biblical scholars remind us that Jesus had not a word to say on the subject.)
Adding fuel to this fire was Obama’s reply to questions about the concert. He haughtily told a reporter from the gay news magazine the Advocate, “If there’s somebody out there who’s been more consistent in including LGBT Americans in his or her vision of what America should be, then I would be interested in knowing who that person is.” (The answer, of course, is Dennis Kucinich.)
But what’s really on Obama’s mind isn’t LBGT Americans. It’s black voters. With so much of the African American vote snugly in Hillary Clinton’s pantsuit pocket, the Illinois senator clearly is hoping to make inroads before South Carolina’s crucial 2008 primary.
The offspring of a Kenyan father and a white American mother, Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia without much churchgoing until he grew up and ran for office. So he is not only a generation but a world away from the political leadership most of us African Americans have come to know. Putting on Baptist drag and staging a gospel music show is precisely the sort of pandering Obama had scrupulously avoided. Until now.
He’d also previously managed to sidestep — or stand astride — the gay-straight schism in the black community. In 2004, during his U.S. Senate run, Obama campaigned at Chicago’s Salem Baptist Church, whose leader, Rev. James Meeks, called same-sexuality “an evil sickness.” That was quickly forgotten, overshadowed by Obama’s eloquent speeches on hard-core Democratic issues, gay rights included, to turn-away crowds that treated him, as more than one commentator has noted, “like a rock star.”
Now a gospel star may have driven a wedge between Obama and his gay supporters and roiled others as well. For, by putting McClurkin in the spotlight, Obama has broken black America’s 11th Commandment: “Don’t talk about it in front of the white people!”
Black churches are so much at the center of African American public life, and so much in denial about the gays and lesbians in their pews and choir stalls. As the late Marlon Riggs said in “Tongues Untied,” his acclaimed 1990 documentary about gay blacks and AIDS, “How many choir directors have to die before we know who we are?” The “Embrace the Change” lineup reflects how this struggle is far from over. McClurkin, who is a minister at an evangelical church in New York, calls homosexuality a “choice” — needless to say the wrong one. The duo Mary Mary claims to love gays in a love-the-sinner kind of way, equating us with murderers or prostitutes. It is only Byron Cage of the Mighty Clouds of Joy who has been actively working to heal the gay-straight divide.
Gays played pivotal roles in African American history, but the community continues to wish away their sexuality. Blues legends Bessie Smith, Alberta Hunter and Ethel Waters all took female lovers. (Impresario Leonard Reed once said Waters was “so mean she married her second husband to spite her girlfriend when she found out she was sleeping with him.”) Gay composer Billy Strayhorn gave the Duke Ellington Orchestra its sound, including its theme song, “Take the A Train.” The fabled Harlem Renaissance was, frankly, a gay and lesbian movement led by the likes of Zora Neale Hurston, Bruce Nugent and Langston Hughes.
Over and above all these towers James Baldwin, the novelist and essayist whose accounts of the civil rights movement are without peer, and Bayard Rustin, the most important civil rights figure after the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Rustin conceived of the 1963 March on Washington, but thanks to a vice arrest in Pasadena a decade earlier, he was forced to take a back seat during the unveiling of his masterpiece.
Coretta Scott King never forgot Rustin’s sacrifice and went on to support the gay-rights movement. Her daughter, however, the Rev. Bernice King, joined a 2004 march against same-sex marriage.
And so we now find Obama trying, as it were, to court both branches of the King family. It won’t work. And his continued relevance to gay and lesbian African Americans is over.
David Ehrenstein writes on Hollywood and politics at fablog.ehrensteinland.com.
For those of us who didn’t see the debate, who replayed right wing attacks? Was it everyone, and in equal measure?
I understand they did not all distinguish themselves on migrant’s issues, and while the GOP is worse, there are problems among the Dems. I understand Dodd threw Spitzer under the bus. Is he pulling an Obama, dumping one minority group to play dog whistle politics to bigots? What did people think or see?
Thanks.
I was at a neighborhood meeting last night and did not see the debate. However, all of the women who were sitting with me first did not want to say who they would vote for until I (the most “political”) said I did not support Clinton (unless she is the nominee.)
Then they all (at once) heaved a huge sigh of relief and said they did not support her. I guess they assumed I do support her and did not want to take me on.
And of course the idea that Richardson is looking to be her #2 is taking hold. . .
biff diggerence @ 36
The post is not about Hillary being “picked on,” and there is this post to consider wrt to Hillary’s views on torture.
I can’t get around Hillary’s polices and history, and I don’t believe she’ll go progressive once elected. She will not roll back corporate power, and she will not restore the constitution back to where it was when Bill was president.
Her negatives won’t hurt her – she’s too disciplined, and she’ll win a narrow general election. She will hurt the votes downstream, because ‘pug activists will come out in droves to vote against her, and vote a straight R ticket. That makes more and better Dems more difficult. Put Edwards or Dodd at the top of the ticket, and you’ve got a mandate with the coattails to sweep in the votes to make it stick.
Sure, ‘pugs will swiftboat any D (they’d smear Jesus if he ran as a D!), but they’ve got a head start with Hillary. I for one, have already had all the Bush/Clinton melodrama I can use. Going back to the 90’s ain’t gonna happen because due to NAFTA and outsourcing, working Americans are much worse off now than then. Time for a fresh approach, fergawdsake!
Go Edwards!
raven @ 40
I think that some of her “tough” appearance is posturing – not really who she is, but, as they all must to an extent – and, by virtue of the fact that she is a woman, perhaps a bit more – playing politics. That is, I don’t really believe she’s as hawkish as one might believe (especially if one’s opinions are a “reflection” of right wing talking points?)
-MS
time to talk about long term marketing…we need a theme and keep pounding the theme till it becomes part of every day discussion
the bush administration did this remarkably well, they pound out that government spends too much and then they are actually able to limit programs by saying they are not going to add funding for it
then they give away our assets to the wealthiest people on the planet, then claim and recovery of those assets is a tax increase
it’s a marketing concept, say it as many times as possible and people begin to beleive it
now use that principle and check out my bold;
there it is, we have to inject this presidents inaability in every discussion, make it part of every day opinion
biden missed it a little bit, instead of “the most unqualified since bush” he could have said “with the possible exception of bush, the most unqulified and incapable in history”
every single conversation, this president’s inadaquate ability needs to be brought raised
Pach – if memory serves (and I didn’t see every minute), Dodd, Edwards and Obama went after Clinton’s electability.
and yes, Dodd was the most virulent on Spitzer.
coffee’s ready, gang – hold out your cups.
The most popular Republican in the country Gov Gropper supports driver’s licenses for illegals after having campaigned against it
and yet not one bobblehead has mentioned that
i don’t know, scarecrow. hillary’s in a tough place. it’s called running for president.
right now, she’s running against other candidates for her party’s nomination — how are they supposed to campaign if they can’t bring up the single largest element obstructing their opponent’s candidacy.
i have to say: i know literally dozens of people who will not vote for her, because she’s hillary. this includes progressives who know she’s no liberal; so-called centrists who have howled over her toadyism to the bush-washington agendas of iraq/iran authorizations, and law by lobbyists; and of course rightists who will not ever vote for a clinton, period.
is it justified? probably not — the perfect should not be the enemy of the good, especially in desperate times. but this is more than a repug wet dream. there is resistance to her candidacy that will truly galvanize an anybody but hillary crowd. it’s not wrong to point that out.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 27
Yep!
the dem candidates are dimwits for swallowing the bait pumpkinhead fed them…..personally i’m not for Sen Clinton but all these other guys remind me of the repugs…scared shitless of a strong woman who can stand there and take the punch and punch back….dodd is smart but he almost sounded like one of post ad exceptions sequences that are speeded up so you don’t know what the deal really is………and i can go on and on…
watertiger @ 13
Well, since Darth Cheney seems to be Punkinhaid’s controller, the questions prol’ly DID originate with Cheney.
Selise – Do you know whether or not Cspan3 will be covering today’s SJC FISA hearing?
Last nights debate was ugly. Although Edwards, Dodd, Richardson had some good moments. I am disappointed we didn’t get more out of them. I can’t help blame Russert and Williams for setting the Mary Matalin tone. I can’t stand it when Clinton told Russert to stop framing the social security question in republican terms, Obama moves in for the kill so to speak.
And the big WTF was the UFO question thrown at Kucinich.
The other. Although I missed half the debate, I heard there was not one FISA bill question.
Still ranting from last night.
Interesting scarecrow that you DIDN’T mention Hillary’s use of ReTHUGlican political tactics to run her campaign. While I agree that we progressives shouldn’t use THUGlican talking points, Hillary and her Rovian attack dog Wolfson have been steeped in it the whole campaign, sorry I don’t buy the augment concerning her! Bill Clinton had high approvals and the progressive movement was thrown under the bus..A CLINTON WILL do it to us again.
Scarecrow @ 46
I want to thank my polling staff for their quick analysis, which confirmed that a larger share of the angry white male torture demographic will not be forthcoming as a result of my vote to confirm the nominee.
hmm… I don’t know a single democrat in my every day life that wouldn’t vote for Hillary… I realize that is not a poll, but that’s how it is… in fact, her strongest supporters in my world are middle-aged white guys…
I guess I always discount the “unelectable” biz because I just don’t see any evidence of it ’round here.
dmg says:
“i have to say: i know literally dozens of people who will not vote for her, because she’s hillary.”
Point of Scarecrow’s post is (I think):
Will not vote for her or say they will not vote for her, because “no one” will vote for her?
-MS
watertiger @ 13
Amen!
I am not a Hillary supporter, but I will hold my nose and vote for her in the general. I know she’s the front runner, but it sure did appear that boys ganged up on the one girl in the room last night.
As many have already stated no matter who the Democrats nominate they will be savaged by the right, however we should discuss the electability issue now not later.
OldCoastie @ 50
I hated it when Dodd said a drivers license is a privilege.
the electibility issue is how we ended up with Kerry…
Clinton is a mistake. It is as simple as that. Her “woman-ness” is irrelevant. She is the wrong woman at the right time (so to speak…it is time for a woman to serve but she just isn’t the right one).
The Rethugs attack her incessantly because they do know that she WILL bring out the base for their side. That is a fact. Any other candidate and their base may be indifferent or scatter all over the ballot map. Hillary is a lense that focuses their base’s laser to a tight focus. Also, if she won, she would be the lessor of all “evils” from the GOP perspective: she is GOP-lite, pro-corporation over people, pro-business at the expense of workers. The fiscal conservatives of the GOP can happily live with Hillary.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 33
I’m suggesting we all start facing up to the fact that we’re still being gamed by the Rovians. I’m suggesting that we’re about to be railroaded into the Republican’s permanent majority end game. I’m suggesting that the Democrats have bet all on winning the White House in 2008 even though that goal is not actually coincident with fixing what BushCo has broken. I’m suggesting that the Democrats are about to make a rather crude devils bargain and we’re all ignoring the fine print in favor of the bold slogans.
I’m suggesting that the only real way to beat BushCo is to drive them out of office and into jail where they belong, and anything short of
that is foolishness.
When Nixon left office, we thought we had won, I’m suggesting that we’re about to have another one of those moments.
GRUMPYOLDVET @ 54
I agree with what you say, except that I don’t think she punched back. She explained her position and I don’t recall her making any accusations or belittling any other candidate.
OldCoastie @ 60
no, there aren’t too many democrats that are gonna vote for any republican so hilary has a chance if shes the candidate, but the republicans WILL turn out more then if someone else is the candidate
no democrat voting against her isn’t really good enough either, I think the same percentage that wouldn’t vote against her would be the number that wouldn’t vote against kerry
yet there kerry was, loosing
yes, I know he actually won but the same machines are gonna be in place with the same anti voting strategy
democrats have a lot of ground to make up if they are able to control the machines and the polling areas
this time those machines aren’t gonna take any chances either, they’re not gonna try to “just squeak over the top”, they are gonna be very aggresively undermined to flip the election and I really think we need to get on that as soon as possible
Selise,
I haven’t seen a link to Edwards speech, but after the debate, I read the whole thing, having only seen parts of it, off the email from his campaign.
I don’t agree with every one of his policy points, but I think he’s basically a genuine person with great integrity and could be the compass we are going to need to start to clean up the mess.
Michael in Park Slope @ 48
Well, it’s exactly that kind of posturing that got us in Vietnam thanks to the Dems need to prove they didn’t “lose” China.
“I’m suggesting we all start facing up to the fact that we’re still being gamed by the Rovians. I’m suggesting that we’re about to be railroaded into the Republican’s permanent majority end game. I’m suggesting that the Democrats have bet all on winning the White House in 2008 even though that goal is not actually coincident with fixing what BushCo has broken. I’m suggesting that the Democrats are about to make a rather crude devils bargain and we’re all ignoring the fine print in favor of the bold slogans.
I’m suggesting that the only real way to beat BushCo is to drive them out of office and into jail where they belong, and anything short of
that is foolishness.
When Nixon left office, we thought we had won, I’m suggesting that we’re about to have another one of those moments”
and your point is….I don’t see what you are suggesting as an alternative
mui @ 63
Uh…it is factually correct. DRIVING is a privilege, not a right. Look into it. Thus, a driver’s license is also a privilege, NOT a right.
You may not like the feel or sound of what Dodd said, but it is objectively and factually correct.
Kucinich suggested yesterday afternoon that Bush might be mentally ill.
So, Cheney made sure the UFO question got put to Dennis.
I am a Progressive as are most of my friends. However, I have a large number of acquaintances who cover the political spectrum from Right to Left and there is one thing we all agree on (though for different reasons); we will not be voting for HRC either in the primaries or likely, the election proper.
Her “negatives”, as you so politically PC put it, are substantial. She carries the odor moderate right wing stink though tries to cover it in moderate, middle of the road witch hazel.
I think the standard thinking Dems who are certain of her success are in for a rude awakening should she get the nomination.
Michael in Park Slope @ 61
i’m not going to give you names and addresses, but these are folks — registered democrats, by and large — who haven’t voted for either of her senate races. so there’s a track record.
old coastie raised a point about her strongest support being middle-aged white guys: i concur. i run into a lot more hostility to hillary among women i know than men.
and finally, i’m with diogenes — if she’s the dem nominee, she’ll prolly still win, but may have a dampening effect on congressional races. and whether she does or not, you know how the repugs will endlessly replay the clinton wars of the 90s.
edwards is the candidate i’d want to see. that he’s unlikely to make it doesn’t change the fact that he is speaking most clearly on the subjects that need addressing.
Scarecrow, I agree that the other Dems went on the huber attack , which is fair enough, but they looked small in the way they went about it. Hillary did a great job in parrying, and will still be in the lead after last night. That liscense issue will come up again, but there’s no other remedy out there right now. She , at least knew the specifics and didn’t commit to any plan. So now we can’t even listen to plans as Democrats? Sounds like a Rethug idea for America.
Uh…it is factually correct. DRIVING is a privilege, not a right. Look into it. Thus, a driver’s license is also a privilege, NOT a right.
You may not like the feel or sound of what Dodd said, but it is objectively and factually correct.
so what it doesn’t take a way from the fact that he is taking the wrong position on an issue
all the loads of crap about down ticket concerns and her negatives are gooper talking points. In fact, The Ghouls negatives are higher now than hers. More people have said they would never vote for Romney then about Clinton, Keep repeating gooper talking points.
twolf1 @ 56
c-span is not covering the fisa hearing today (even for later broadcast) – at least that was what i was told. however, the sjc should be streaming the hearing live from their website (i just confirmed this with the sjc). i will attempt to record an audio for those who can’t watch the video.
also, this afternoon there are two potentially interesting hearings. the house foreign affairs committee hearing with david walker – i think this one will be on the krongard investigation and the house ways and means committee will be having a hearing on the peru “free trade” agreement.
also, yesterday i uploaded the audio from the hjc hearing with tanner on voting rights in the doj.
p.s. video stream of last night’s debate is here. if i can get it working for me i’ll rip an audio. [is cnn the only one to post their debates to archive.org this year? that sucks]
scarecrow: “while they ignore the margin of her last Senate election victory” …somehow disproves her (national) unelectability?
C’mon, NY is not a picture of how the US votes at large. Hillary is who the ‘Pukes want to face. Why? B’cuz she would be what would motivate RWers to come out and vote against her in droves; -she’s like a large wedge issue like gay-marriage, anti-choice, etc. It’s a vicious circle; the RW talking heads keep always mentioning her while ignoring the rest of the field, and then Dems refute the RW’s spin on Clinton and people talk about the criticism of those points. It just feeds itself and all the other candidates from both parties are fighting to be “2nd most talked about”.
BTW, I thought the questions last night were horrific. We spent over half the debate just on w’s next fantasy war (Iran) and his present fantasy ‘war’ (Iraq/terror). That’s practically all we talk about anymore, whether it’s the Surge or Petraeus or funding or dead soldiers/civilians or Iran, etc. It’s going just as designed: keep everybody preoccupied with ‘war’/fear/terror/security, and noone will notice (or have time/column inches in the MSM) to talk about the 1000 ongoing national disasters/outrages, any one of which, on their own, would have been enough to unseat any other modern president in history.
Raven @ 70:
I think my point was only that her image as a hawk is due more to right-wing media talking points than reality.
And, Viet-Nam was a horror, but not due to duplicity so much as stupidity, on the part of the Truman-Eisenhower-Kennedy-Johnson-Nixon administrations as well as their respective electorates.
-MS
Well, it looks like we certainly have agreement on this issue.
dmg @ 75
Well to be fair, the coming failure for the Dems to make substantial gains in Congress despite the perfect storm being brewed by the GOP, will NOT simply be because of the filthy coattails of Hillary. The Democrapic Congress is going out of its way to suppress Democrapic voter turnout and enthusiasm by continuing war funding, continuing to give in to Bush ON EVERYTHING, giving immunity to Telecoms for their illegal spying at the behest of the Bush Administration (they will do this, count on it), keeping impeachment forever off the list Democrapic tools for correcting criminal Administrations, Alito, Roberts, what’s his nuts (the horrendous judge just given a pass by the Dems), etc. Hillary is gas on the fire that the Democraps have lit themselves to burn themselves down.
Praedor Atrebates @ 72
IMHO it is a privilege only if you are looking at the question in regard to teenagers and adults who are irresponsible. The implication then is that all illegals are not adult or responsible, when in fact in New York the reasons for immigration illegal or otherwise run from everthing to asylum (non-official) or work-related. I am not going to assume that any of these folks should be treated as irresponsible or like juveniles.
Dodd has good people working for him. I am truly disappointed. He should have done his research. I am still rooting for him and Edwards.
Attacking HRC about Monica, Bill or Whitewater would be going negative in the GOP sense. Passionately pointing out where there are fundamental differences in positions and beliefs is a part of the political process that I embrace. I did not see anyone attack HRC on a personal basis. If someone refuses to be clear on a stance then the should be confronted. If a candidate has received the most money from special interest, I want to know. IMHO.
Good Morning Scarecrow!
re driving:
in the late late nite thread #242 cinnamonape suggested international driver’s licenses, sounds like good sense to me
I think what everyone should realize, this election is also a fight for the soul of the Democratic party. Do we want the Clinton-Stoyer-Emanuel ‘ites, and the spineless Pelosi-Reids or do we REALLY want a change, not just a prez change??????
Hillary is playing the woman card and she has a right to, but behind the scenes with her attack dog Wolfson leading the charge, she is pushing those tactics and she has to own up to her rhetoric. I agree Pumpkinhead was an idiot, but there has been all this meandering around Hillary and she is triangulating every friggin answer…ENOUGH….you can say what you want about the tactics used last night, but if you listen carefully every other candidate spoke from the heart, she had her bullet talking points and created a narrative around them, that is politics as usual and she should be called on it, if what she was doing is also pointed out by the THUGS well so be it!
I will hold my nose and vote for her in the general IF she is nominated, but I notice alot of progressives and certain bloggers always giving her the benefit of the doubt, because she is Bills wife……not good….make her earn it!
demi @ 69
i don’t mind reading it… but my preference is to listen to a speech and read an essay.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 77
OK, then that is a different point. I thought you were upset by the actual statement he made rather than the policy of Spitzer’s.
If any of the Dems want to beat Sen. Clinton, they need to read the following commentary. It is a sad day when a conservative has to tell us how to win a primary.
http://joeleonardi.wordpress.c…..t-hillary/
Katherine – 64 days, or so, until Iowa. It’s crazytime for the candidates on both sides.
Hillary and Romney are going to win – instantly relegating everyone else to the ’should I stay or should I go’ question.
They all SAY they can beat Hillary, but the polling gives it away – she’s going to win easily.
There’s no need for her to ‘legitimize’ any of the contenders by engaging them in ‘what-if’ rhetoric that will be proved false in two months.
pesfb @ 74
Odor? Stink? witch hazel? Powerful arguments.
IrishJim @ 85
Obama ended up tag teaming with Russert on the social security question, by bashing Hillary with things she left unsaid, but could have already been said by her, and by denying that Russert was framing the social security question in ye old Republican manner. Because he’s so “bipartisan.” There was a whiff of Holy Joe coming from Obama.
Michael in Park Slope @ 81
Vietnam was one manifestation of the containment policy developed by George Kennan and espoused by every administration of both parties until the end of the cold war. We were wrong in Vietnam because it was a nationalist movement and communism wasn’t monolithic. But, no one was stupid for seeing it that way for a number of years.
mui – I sense more than a whiff of Holy Joe on Obama…
selise @ 88
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was waiting for a link too, but since I never saw one, I went for the second best thing and read.
And one of the reasons I really like Edwards is it would be swell if we elected a president that I could actually stomach watching speak on tv.
Leave it to Pumpkinhead to try to further inflame the Spitzer issue. Lou Dobbs would be proud. FISA bills and other legislation don’t exist in Pumpkinheads debate priorities. It’s all wedge issues. And Mary Matalin must have thrown in the UFO question.
demi @ 96
Is this the speech you’re looking for?
I guess it is a lot of fun playing politics. Being for a person becuase of their gender is as bad as being against a person because of their gender.
My opposition to the war is as much about Domestic Policy as it is Foreign Policy. If anyone thinks that we are going to have any kind of health care, infrastucture maintenance, education progress, or ability to protect our people against threat – human or natural – they are just talking fairy tales as long as we have a adventuristic enterventionist foreign policy.
Iraq is not our problem and never was. No candidate can be sucessful without opposing this war. The opposition has to be open and unwavering. Hillary voted for the funding for the “war” and then whines she didn’t know what she was doing. I am just a working guy and I was pretty damn sure when the CIA leaked that they did not know whether Iraq had WMD or not, that there were probably no WMD in Iraq. I am not a Senator whose job it is to know what you need to know when you need to know it.
I could care less about first woman or first black. I care about haveing a President taht understands that I and most Americans are looking for a person who can tell us exactly what they are for, not what they think will get them elected.
OldCoastie @ 95
mmm. yeah, can’t forget that fundraising dinner in CT where Obama chastised the CT Dems booing Holy Joe, his hero.
I agree the questions were awful. I’d also rather see Dan Rather moderate than the usual suspect pundits. I also wish the Social Security “problem” would be dropped and the focus placed where it needs to be: medicare. Social Security is solid for almost 50 years yet and can be handled relatively easily. It doesn’t garner the focus it is getting. MEDICARE is a problem that is a problem NOW and getting worse. It needs fixing NOW and fixing medicare means, essentially, fixing healthcare in this nation top-to-bottom.
And this brings up the other unsuitable aspect of Hillary. Her healthcare plan is simply to require tax-funded profits for insurance companies. Sheesh! Insurance companies are the problem, NOT the solution (nor are they part of the solution). Healthcare insurance needs to be operated on a NON-PROFIT basis. The entire system must NOT be based on denial of coverage and drugs in order to maximize CEO benefits and shareholder value.
Obama took himself out of the race for VP even – he’s got No Political Capital to offer a Presidential running mate.
For Katherine and Michael,
What I’m suggesting, and I think it was more clear than you want to admit, is that we are focusing too much on the horse race, which is not going to change things as much as we like to think, while we ignore the obvious, if difficult job of ridding our government of the fascist infection that currently threatens to put an end to our way of life.
First things first, is what I’m saying, we are not directly addressing the situation at hand, we are getting ready to celebrate an empty victory that is in no way sure because we prefer to avoid the real job, impeaching Bush and Cheney.
Is that clear enough?
SC: That’s the one. We were looking for an audio link. As Teddy said the other day, it is a very fine, very presidential speech. We just wish we could Hear it.
For people who haven’t looked at it, it’s worth the read. Hopeful, but in a sad way.
I gotta scoot now, but my overall impression of the debate was that ganging up on Clinton generally made the men who put the beating on her look bad.
Clinton didn’t have a perfect night, but she was still standing after all those attacks.
And I completely agree with scarecrow – we don’t need to pound rightwing talking points as a means to topple Clinton – it was a crappy thing to do.
Scarecrow @ 92
There can be no stink without chemical emission. There can be no chemical emission without being soaked in, or exuding, said chemicals (big business, bankers, military-industrial complex, special interest business donations). Hillary’s stink is due to the fact that she is PART OF all the above and supportive of ALL the above. Those ARE valid and powerful arguments.
She needs to be asked if she supports immunity for Telecoms and, when she hems and haws, ask her if she is having a problem answering correctly due to the MASSIVE amounts of cash she has received, and continues to receive, from Telecoms.
Scarecrow @ 92
Exactly! Just wait until the Democratic Convention where you will see all the liberated Convention delegates sporting “Hillary” labeled clothespins on their noses.
Praedor Atrebates @ 101
That would be nice. Because I think there lies a real difference in candidates. (among many)
From my memory pumpkinhead and williams played the 60-second game for those questions. I think candidates like Edwards started to talk about insurance companies, then bleep, cut off. Really doing the public a disservice.
There’s a difference between reinforcing Republican talking points and merely going negative. You can do the latter without doing the former.
For a little bit of a different perspective, two of the things I remember my 13 year old saying last night:
Why do they have to put the short guy next to the two biggest ones? It makes him look bad.
Hillary never answers yes or no, she just explains around a lot.
FWIW.
I watched the entire debate. However, based on some of the comments above, I must have somehow missed the part where all of the candidates, or at least the other two front runners (Edwards, Obama), were pressed on their positions on Iran, Iraq, drivers licenses, social security, etc. the way Clinton was. Why didn’t Russert/Williams pressure Obama and Edwards the same way they pressured Clinton? Instead they went out of their way to put Clinton under the kleig lights.
Pressing candidates on their positions is fine. Relentlessly attacking one candidate while the others get a pass is not.
Watt4Bob @ 103:
Pragmatically, do you think impeachment has any chance of happening? I’m sure that everyone here would love to see it, but, really….
Much more important to dwell in reality, methinks.
-MS
Scarecrow @ 98
yes, but i’m looking for the audio (or video).
The Goopers have 22 of the 34 Senatorial seats up for grabs in 08.
The Dems are likely to retain all of their incumbencies, and pick-up at least 12 of the Gooper seats. Dems 62-38.
The House will be a Landslide Victory for the Dems, who will take every contest except those Gooper districts (very, very few) that voted for Bush with 80% margins. Dems 280-160.
Add to that a Dem President, and we will Change America for the Better on all fronts beginning Jan 20, 2009.
Good morning from L.A. Thanks for posting this right out of the gate this a.m., Scarecrow.
Hillary will end up the nominee imo, although I prefer Edwards. NBC thinks so too, & all I can say about last night’s debate is that Russert & Co seemed bound & determined to provoke HRC enough to say something that can be ripped aparted, pasted together, & inserted in a negative campaign ad later. In my darker moods I sometimes wonder if that isn’t the underlying motivation for having so many of these debates.
Oh, for a better debating format, or, failing that, no more pre-primary debates…
abiodun @ 6
I am just trolling through here for lefty reaction to the debate. Is it trolling if I announce it at the start? ah, who cares…
The post starts off with the “cardinal rule.” Ok so you think it is good politics not to use the same talking points as the republicans? This is the problem, sometimes Republicans are RIGHT. Look at Kerry; Republicans told you that his negatives were so severe that half the population wouldn’t vote for him ever, under any circumstance. He faced a weakened President leading an unpopular war; a decent candidate would have beaten Bush easily.
Both men polarized the opposition, just more were polarized against Kerry. The Republicans are saying the same thing about Clinton. Key fact to consider; we don’t like Bill Clinton and the last thing we want is that crook back in the White House in any capacity. Polarized.
This “only lady” comment is ridiculous. I thought you were progressives? What a sexist comment. “Picking on the only girl…men are bullies!”
If she can’t hang with wimps like Kuchinich, Edwards, and Obama, the Dear Leaders of the world will eat her sack lunch. She is after the White House, make her withstand the same nasty politics a male front-runner would.
Wasn’t it Bush that coined the term, “the soft-discrimination of low expectations?” And yet you want us to leave her alone because she’s a girl? Seems like your expectations of her are pretty low if she gets different rules than men.
Michael in Park Slope @ 81
Gulf of Tonkin was certainly duplicity. If you add up all the enemy troops we killed in the conflict we would have killed every man, woman and child more than once. That is duplicity – either to the public or one’s self.
This “war” is lloking sadly like Vietnam more each day, except we do not have the anti-war movment like then. No draft and the kids are all home playing video games. (about war at that!)
In 1992 it was “about the economy, stupid”. 2008 it will be “about the war, stupid”.
All else hinges on if and when we get out.
Kucinich questions Bush’s mental health
Is Mark McKinnon still advising McCain or did he go over to Obama?
The reason I ask is that on Mon we (hubby & I) flew to Mpls from NY City & as we were boarding overheard a guy conducting a conference call. What we caught was “he is two points behind Clinton in Iowa”. He looked familiar so checking out a video interview with McKinnon online we thought he looked like the guy we saw.
Phoenix Woman @ 109
I’ll buy that in theory, but I’m having a hard time coming up with examples in Hillary’s case. And I distinguish between the typical negative attacks on Clinton and criticisms on her previous decisions, eg., Iraq/Iran. For example, I would not call arguing that it’s a mistake to vote for kyl-lieberman because it enables Bush/Cheney “going negative.” And criticizing Clinton for that probably helps Dems in general, whatever it does for the candidate.
Can we describe “going negative” examples that aren’t Republican talking points wrt to HRC? And more to my point, aren’t most of the talking points, when examined, ultimately directed at the party and liberalism, and not just Hillary. That’s why I think going negative on Hillary plays into a larger narrative that hurts all Dems. But perhaps, as you suggest, there is a way to do this that doesn’t cause that problem.
gosh I missed the part of the debate where Edwards and Obama announced their positions on the driver’s licenses.
Christy has a new post ready.
Alvord @ 111
That’s what drives me crazy as a woman. I don’t want Hillary to be the nominee. I am p’oed that the media treats her as the nominee. Because the glass is always half-Republican with the Clintons. Kyl/Lieberman, for instance. Now Pumpkinhead actually looked a little aroused and red-faced when he “took on” Hillary in a way that made me think of other preverted Clinton-obsessed types. That was a gross out. To me. As a woman.
I looked at the debate last night. I really don’t have a problem with Hillary ‘going negative’ on any or all of the other candidates. So long as that negativity is based upon pointing out inconsistancies, pervarications, vagueness and or bad reasoning. Some make a distinction between “negativity” just to win points and “negativity” in the interest of trying to get at the truth. One is politics and the other represents statespersonship.
Ed Schultz giving big props to John Edwards this morning on his regional show. “He won the debate.”
But don’t let the MSM hear about it…might trip up their meme of the day….
And Mika’s cozy text shilling for the Obama camp is a real turn off.
Mods….. Would you mind telling me you did not like so terribly that my whole post was blackballed?
twolf1 @ 118
Even worse, he does not seem to understand his actions have real impact.
Prairie Sunshine @ 125
The MSM has basically dissed Edwards for the last six months. Who knows maybe now they will give him a bit of the spotlight.
Edwards is going to win in Iowa!
C-Span won’t be covering the FISA hearing today. Am waiting for the live feed from the SJC site to begin. Anyone find a link for it yet? Thanks…
I feel like Santa’s Little Helper: “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah-blah, blah…”
Russert is my favorite interviewer, which is why I was so disappointed that he had an agenda in his questioning last night.
bg @ 45
I get the same thing. Seems the most attractive thing about Hillary is having Bill close by. Thing is, with Bill’s experience (and ego), he isn’t going anywhere, regardless of who the Pres ends up being. And frankly, I don’t care if the media has pointed out the main problem with Hillary- it still is true. Almost 50% of the country will not vote for her under any circumstances. Dodd was great last night in reminding all of us we MUST elect a Dem President if we have any shot of repairing the damage done by Republicans. Can any of us say nominating Hillary is worth the gamble? I sure as hell am not in a gambling mood, these days.
With the effort to politicize the Justice Department to go after Dems, I do not for one second think these guys will not try to rig the vote again. If the perception of Hillary’s unfavorable ratings are widely reported, which they are, then all they need to do is say once again the race was close and steal another one. People will believe the race was close and accept the conclusion without a fight- again. THINK! She is an awesome Senator- let’s keep her there and get someone like Edwards. Only a Clinton can create a polorizing figure that spurns the demoralized Christian Reicht to vote for a 3x divorce’ or flip flopping Mormon. We know these guys play for keeps and stealing elections is their forte. God, let’s not give them what they need to make it possible. Our kids future is too important to roll the dice.
Hillary is a polarizing candidate – on the left and on the right.
I was tempted to agree with Dodd but don’t – because I think she will manage to get elected. The Republican field is undeniably weak. The country is ready for a change.
[She should be practicing for the Republican onslaught, because it is going to be fierce.]
Anyone who is elected will have a tough time governing, given the right-wing slime machine. She at least will have Bill Clinton standing up for her. That will be a plus.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
the feed is up but the hearing hasn’t started. feed is:
rtsp://avs2.senate.gov/judiciary
p.s. i am making an audio recording (fingers crossed that there are not problems)
American democracy has suffered immensely this past seven years. And the thanks goes to the wingnuts for first discrediting the american electoral process through their actions in Florida-2000 and Ohio-2004. Coupled that with Iraq, habeas corpus, phone tapping and the establishment of Nero-esque political leadership, the situation is toxic. The winguts cannot be trusted to work to save the republic. They’re too stupid. The progressives ,independents and some paleo-conservatives are America’s last hope to right the wrong. Hillary, much like Joe Lieberman, is the dead crow in the well. She’s too toxic. Even if she’s elected a huge part of the country will sit out the ‘rebuilding of America effort. The stupid pride of the wingnuts will elect denizens of the gutter, such as Delay,Newt,Barr et al. Which means a great part of her time will be spent defending herself and Bill from the various attacks. Besides why should the progressives give the wingnuts further ammo? She may be a palatable candidate. But for another time. Certainly not now.
Americans need to heal together after the era of this Nero wannabe and his squadron of trolls.
Hillary will just be an impediment to that effort. American should be red,white and blue again. Not red state and blue states but America as united country. A propose a ticket of Kucinich for President and Edwards as vice.
maung @ 126
maung – There is no comment of yours that is/was caught (or blackballed) in the filter. Refreshing the page before the comment has posted can cause it to disappear. Also, certain browsers, such as Opera, have known issues with WordPress. What browser and operating system are you using?
egregious @ 127
If Bush attacks Iran, whether he knows it or not, that will have a real impact. On Mr. Putin for example. I find myself feeling somewhat odd that I trust the head of the Russian government, far more than Bush as it relates to mental stability and trying to avoid a possible nuclear showdown. But that’s the way it is.
The Lurking Mod @ 136
Thank you Lurker — I expect it was my sausage fingers refreshing too swiftly…
Ummm, the field always gangs up on the front-runner at this stage of the campaign.
Should Hillary get a pass because she’s a woman?
I don’t think so – I think she is tough enough to handle it. I think she’s tough enough to handle the shit coming her way if she becomes the nominee.
I just wish she were progressive, instead of what her history and record says she is – a corporatist.
And I don’t buy for a second that she’s secretly progressive, but has to play tough in a man’s world.
I give her the respect of taking her at face value.
I don’t watch the debates and I don’t care. I will vote for the democrat. I will also know that I don’t have any influence on this process. My views, like everyone else’s who comments here regularly, are just too far left for candidates in this environment. I had some hope early on that because of the Bush assaults on traditional American institutions, like social security and the part about us not being torturers, that the door might be open to considering some serious progressive changes, but alas, that is not to be.
The candidates don’t really care what progressives think. They are posturing to the disinterested middle, the people who don’t read the paper and think that television is informative. Everything the main candidates do and say is focused that way. It takes real leadership to break through the corporate lens that most people use to see the world. It takes a lot more than any of these candidates have to say that we as a nation need to lift up our eyes from the dreck on tv and the complexity and problems of work and children. It takes a special person to offer a real vision of a cooperative society after decades of me-first thinking.
Let’s hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.
This is so reminiscent of 2004 it is scary. We have a seriously flawed presumptive nominee and the Democrat left party elite are too blind to see it. The most important issue in this election is the disastrous Iraq war and the concept of preemptive war and sabber rattling diplomacy. How on God’s green earth is Hillary Clinton (with her ever evolving position and triangulating) going to provide a clear enough contrast to compell middle America to reject this. I don’t trust the Democrat Establishement to pick a candidate. Barack, Dodd and Edwards are doing us a favor. Hillary was against a timeline for withdrawal just a few months ago. I can hear her in this election in a debate saying i voted for the use of force in Iraq because i beleive in diplomacy. i voted for the Iran resolution labeling the Iranian Army terrorists because we need a strong negotiating position. Wow, can we again be that stupid. I think America has seen through the lies that started this war. They just need a clean enough break from the prior positions to be compelled to turn out. The Dems had an iminently winnable election in 2004 until John Kerry said i voted for funding the troops before i voted against it.
What if a candidate in 2004 had stated during the primaries what was obvious in 2004, that Kerry running as a war hero with a history of being a prominent war protestor would be extremeely hard to swallow for middle America. Without a clear position on the war, we could get stuck with four more years of Bush.
I don’t trust the establishemnt Democrats to be clear headed enough to pick a nominee. My father is one of those establishemnt Dems and told me that John Kerry is articulate and seen as a winner. I had meet Kerry and even though i respect him, thought that he came acrossed as having lived life as a part of the wealthy eastern establishment.
Kerry and Hillary are the same candidate. In a word, arrogent. They both have taken so many differnet positions on not only the Iraq war but now the iran resolution that there is almost no way she is going to be able to convince anyone of anything. There is nothing genuine about how many positions she has taken. The repubs will beat her like a drum. Have any of you heard the republican candidates. They are now all repeating the talk radio mantra of equating Islam with fascism. The use of the terms Islamo-fascist and radical Islam aqnd are pushing us too close towards a conflict that is religous in nature. We have to elect the next president with care. If the dems fail us this time, I fear my 8 year old and 3 year old will be subject to the draft by the time they reach eighteen. If candidates cannot admit that the iraq war vote was a mistake they should be laughed off the stage. Lets take a real stand, We should go back and revoke Dick Gepharts membership in the Democrat party for negotiating us into this war.
Michael in Park Slope @ 112
IMHO, the issue is not the difficulty of the impeaching Bush et al, it is the eventual cost of not doing so.
Please, criticize Hillary Clinton on the issues, not guessing about her “electability”. I was cheering for Bush over McCain because I thought Bush wasn’t electable. Boy was I wrong.
bg says that almost 50% of the country won’t vote for her under any circumstances. Yet, the polls show otherwise.
When I look at the Democracy Corps Poll from 10/23 I see that Fred Thompson gets 44%, Clinton gets 51% and 4% are unsure. And when you look at trends, she her negative ratings are only going down. Compare that to the other candidates, and you’ll see that Hillary is doing better.
That seems pretty darn electable to me.
Too bad she isn’t a progressive.
Watt4Bob @ 103
I agree with you and I think you have described the nut of this problem. We (the American people-at-large) are being diverted by bright shiny objects.
Watt4Bob @ 142
I don’t think it’s difficult, per se. I also think it would be the right thing to do, just to be clear. But I don’t think it will happen, in practical terms:
1. It’s difficult in a time of war (even an injust one like this);
2. Pelosi has ruled it out;
3. I don’t see anyone who COULD make it happen (Kucinich? nope!) with an appetite for it.
So I think we need to concentrate on the stuff that we might still be able to affect. IMO.
-MS
Clinton is a Democrat only in name. She is owned by big money, and will act in their interest. Don’t fool yourself. She will pick up right where Bush ends.
As David Sirota (http://www.davidsirota.com/) has suggested we really have to distinguish a different affiliation between the candidates in both parties. There is the money party and the people party, and it is pretty clear who belongs to each. My hope is that we get a people party person to lead the Democrats, but it will be tough to do.
Infinity One @ 146
I’m in total agreement. Unfortunately many progressives think Hillary is the best choice. She is the monied party’s ‘manchurian candidate’ for the people’s party. Sort of a token to get their vote.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 137
And you all call Republicans stupid? Look, France and Russia threatened veto of any resolution involving attacking Iraq. We had Total Fina Elf execs, a French company, on trial on convicted for bribing the French govt in the run-up to the war. Elf had half of Iraq’s oil contracts. Yukos had the other half and Putin’s largest and richest political rival. When those contracts were not realized, Putin jailed his rival and deprivatized Yukos and brought it under his government’s control.
And here, in your infinite wisdom, you trust them more. Brilliant.
Put the hatred away, folks, and try thinking for yourselves.
Michael in Park Slope @ 145
I am sick of hearing about impeachment. Please list the “high crimes and misdemeanors” or shut up. If you say “illegal war” then you are a fool. The authorization to use force, that two of your fav candidates voted for, made it legal. Period. Please list what is illegal and the proof. Or shut up about it.
Praedor Atrebates @ 72
Wrong. Driving is a right, not a “privilege.” In fact, for most people it’s a necessity of life. Worthiness is not a gualification for driving. We license drivers to ensure they meet minimum skill and physical ability qualifications, to protect others on the road.
bob @ 150
You will give illegals a license as their “right” but I bet you are against the Right to Bear Arms. Hmmm…I never read about the Right to Bear Driver’s License in the Bill of Rights.
disagree entirely. Like Kerry, Clinton is an east coast senator that voted for the war and is considered a flip-flopper. Why go with that same strategy again? She is unelectable. Any of the other candidates will keep the republicans home in ‘08. Hillary will consolidate their base around a weak republican candidate, and you could drive a truck through her stances on the issues, which seem to change with the tides. If she’s the nominee, we lose again in ‘08 and it will be all our fault, just like it was with Kerry.
Scarecrow~ I’ve been pointing out that the idea that Clinton has stronger negatives than other candidates is something of a myth for quite awhile. It assumes that the electorate is monolithic, and that positives and negatives are somehow permanently set into the psyche.
That’s not really how things work. If it was the only important people to approach in a campaign would be the “undecideds”. But everyone realizes that the “base” has to hold, as well.
I’ve frequently referred to the only poll that I know that indicates the “negatives” of the candidates. That’s the Sept. 30th, 2007
ABC/Washington Post Poll
Here’s what that survey asked of N=1,114 adults nationwide.
.”If [see below] wins the Democratic/Republican nomination for president would you definitely vote for him/her in the general election for president in 2008, would you consider voting for him/her or would you definitely not vote for him/her?”
.
Definitely Would/ Would Consider/ Definitely Would Not
Hillary Clinton 30% / 28%/ 41% on 4/12-15 27% 26% 45%
John Edwards 16% / 38%/ 43% on 4/12-15 18% 45% 35%
Rudy Giuliani 17%/ 36%/ 44% on 4/12-15 17% 40% 40%
John McCain 13%/ 39% / 45% on 4/12-15 12%/39%/47%
Barack Obama 21%/37%/39% on 4/12-15 20%/ 40%/36%
Mitt Romney 8%/ 28%/ 57% on 4/12-15 7%/ 32%/ 54%
Fred Thompson 10%/29%/54%
It’s pretty obvious that except for Obama, Hillary actually has the lowest negatives of any of the candidates. Edwards has more individuals that “definitely would not vote” for him. But to be fair, such trivial differences that we see are likely within the range of error. But none of the Democratic candidates really have lower “negatives” than Hillary. Most interesting for Democrats is that Romney and Thompson have really large negatives.
Even more interesting is the fact that Hillary once had statistically significant larger negatives than Edwards and Obama, but that has entirely ebbed away. Edwards now has a statistically higher negative than he did before. I have no idea what might have led to this greater negativity, but his camapign better identify what it is. The same trend is apparent, but to a lesser degree, with Obama, Giuliani, and Romney. Perhaps there is a general disappointment in the candidates as they become better known. But Hillary has complete bucked that trend….going from 45% to 41% “Would Definitely Not Vote”.
The same trend is seen in the General Election match-up against Giuliani…a statistical dead heat in January, to a clear Clinton popular vote victory in late September.
“If the 2008 presidential election were being held today and the candidates were Rudy Giuliani, the Republican, and Hillary Clinton, the Democrat, for whom would you vote?” Options rotated
Rudy Giuliani (R)43%
Hillary Clinton (D)51%
Neither (vol.) 3%
Won’t Vote (vol.) 2%
-
1/16-19
Rudy Giuliani 47%
Hillary Clinton 49%
Neither 2%
Admittedly, this is only one set of polls. But it’s the only one I know that actually assesses this so-called “Negative” vote. And it indicates that people’s views on whether they “Definitely Would/Would Not Vote” for a candidate is not an immovable quality. Clinton has been enduring negative attacks for well on 15 years. I suspect that at some point the impact of those attacks have lost credibility and vitality. She’s no longer an “unknown” on the national scene (unlike Obama, Edwards and the Republican candidates…with the possible exception of McCain) .
The one possibility that has been suggested is that Hillary will have an electrifying effect on the Hillary haters far more than Edwards or Obama could produce. But that’s not evident in this survey, or any other that I’ve seen. One interesting experiment is to look at what % of the “Would Consider” the candidate would need to win over in order to beat the other. Rudy would have to sway 32/ 36% of the “Would consider” to beat his negatives (plus the 4% that turned the other way). That means he has to sway a full 89% of those “open to him”.
Hillary OTOH only needs to sway 20/28% of those willing to listen to her appeals. That’s 71% of these undecided voters. Edwards is at 33/38% (=87%); Obama 29/37% (= 78%); McCain 35.5/39 (=91%). And Romney and Thompson don’t even have enough people willing to consider them to overcome their negatives!
“And you all call Republicans stupid?”
Ummmmm — Yep!
-MS
y7 @ 149
As someone who admittedly is “just trolling through here for lefty reaction”, it is not really your place to suggest that commenters here shut up about anything.
Perhaps the sites you frequent have a different policy, but at FDL we don’t insult other commenters.
Hillary has been investigated for more than 15 years by the right-wing smear machine. If they had anything on her we would have heard it a long time ago. But all they have is to repeat her name over and over again until people are sick of hearing “Hillary”. I don’t hear the pundits calling other candidates by their first names exclusively.
She can win and probably will win. Everybody must remember what it takes to get elected in this money grubbing political atmosphere. I can’t fault her for being good at it. I am also amazed at her ability to take the hits that are being thrown her way. She has good answers usually and once the Republican candidate is chosen, she will rip him to shreds in debate. They are the worst candidates for public office I have ever seen. Most of them are pandering as if they are running for an insignificant local office rather than the highest office in the land. If Senator Clinton wins the primaries, you can bet that the voting machines will become extremely important to the Elephants again.
joeadams @ 152
ding ding!
oi vey. um, it’s true her negatives are asymptotic among voters on both ends of the political spectrum, and this may well make her unelectable, a grave risk for principle-free, power hungry (D) ‘pragmatists’.
Among neo-cons like Charles Krauthammer, though, she is viewed as very workable, whats up with that? Isn’t the progressive blogoshpere supposed to be opposed to neo-con policies?
Real progressives should have no trouble following their conscience by refusing to vote for or support a candidate who takes a crazy, warmongering position like threatening to use nuclear weapons against Iran, as Clinton and Obama and others do.
I mean, if you can support someone like that, you are already knee-deep in the manichean, ends-justify-the-means mentality that characterized Bush and the neo-cons.
what would the magically anointed (D) nominee have to say to lose reflexive support? sorry, all options are not on the table, some things are just too wrong, even threatening them is a crime against peace according to the Nuremburg standards.
BTW Kucinich should have thought about the question coming up about UFO’s sometime in his campaign. Here’s what he should have said.
“Yeah I saw something years ago…Unidentified…it was Flying…and it was an Object”. I think a lot of Americans have, and remain mystified about what they saw. Was it occupied by “Little Green Men”? Do you know what I saw Tim? You seem to have some pretty clear ideas about what these things are? Have no idea, maybe it was “Little Green Footballs”? Lincoln and many other Presidents actually believed in ghosts. But if you can answer me this, Tim…what precisely do many of your questions have to do with what makes a good president?”
I disagree with the title of this article-Debating is pointing out the differences between the candidates-these weren’t personal attacks-Edwards was pointing out the differences between him and Clinton, just as the Republicans will-she is acting like a Republican-I couldn’t believe she voted for the Kyl amendment-and she thinks illegal aliens should have drivers licenses-this take on licenses will bring the Republicans out of the woodwork-and you just know they have some sexual dirt on Bill Clinton-if she is the nominee, we will have another Republican president and that will be a travesty.
I have to disagree here… yes, i agree that democrats shouldn’t use republican talking points, but what are they? that republicans look forward to facing her as a challenger? that she takes riduculous money from lobbyists? that she isn’t leading on health care? that she hasn’t learned from her iraq vote and voted for kyl-lieberman?
any of those issues will still be attacked by the repubs as the fact that she’s the holy liberal horror- just as they will attack ANY of the democratic candidates for those issues…
we need to know why democratic voters should vote for her over the other very quality candidates we do have- and the only way is for the others to demonstrate to the low info voters that there is a major difference from her and the field at hand, and not act as if her nomination is inevitable.
and for people who have an issue of “men piling on the sole woman on stage”, clinton can’t have it both ways. she’s running as a candidate- not as a woman. she’s trying to prove that being a woman is not a disqualifer for being president, as she should, but if she was a front running male candidate, no one would bat an eye about the other candidates targeting her… targeting her for her votes and her policies, and being a political animal is what needs to be done.
For the first time in a while, I am truly frightened that we might lose this election. Not because of the Republicans (tho’I’m convinced they are up to something on our blogs) but because of US. Have you been to DKos lately? That place is awash in the nastiest anti-Hillary GOP talking points. Nothing she says is credible. Nothing she says is worth listening to. She isn’t truthful. She’s a hawk. She wants to drop bombs on Iran. She loves perpetual war. She’s going to sll us out to corporations. She triangulates.
I swear, some of those posters are GOP operatives who have figured out what dog-whistle words flip our triggers and they are flogging them relentlessly. Even Kos gets in on the act.
In the meantime, Edwards gets a free pass. There is no critical analysis to anything he says. He is assumed to be true in thought, word and deed. Obama gets a little more scrutiny but even there, the criticism is gentle compared to what is thrown at Hillary. And as far as I can tell, she doesn’t deserve all this crap. Her votes don’t bear out the corporatist meme. She’s solidly progressive. her Lieberman-Kyl vote has been blown out of all proportion. It’s as if she personally wrote a permission slip for Cheney to start the sorties over Tehran when they don’t need an excuse to do what they want. The Lieberman-Kylk resolution was a political tool meant to divide US. The magnitude of attention and vile poured out over that one vote is extreme and makes me think back to the whole Monica nonsense. Whoever is driving this is relentless. Whenever the fire burns down a bit, the embers get stirred up again and the cycle begins anew.
Guys, we are being manipulated by some very clever people. Whether they are Republicans or Clinton opponents, it’s time we take a break and reassess what is going on. It has me very concerned that we will undermine the strongest candidate we have to beat the Republican nominee. These days are going to come back to haunt us.
Scarecrow, maybe it’s time we started to track the IP addresses of some of the regular Hillary underminers. They are being paid by someone. I want to know who.
the rove era seems to have made many democrats scared of their own shadows. fuck that. we should put forward the candidate that represents our values -edwards/dodd/kucinich(not ready for primetime) in my opinion. we’re so scared shitless that we’re being manipulated that we’re scared of honest debate. this is democracy- not in the pure form, but it’s what we got… let em debate the issues.
Why the Problems with Clinton Inc. Could Sink the Democrats in 2008
The Clinton Campaign’s Reckless Race for Big Money Donors
http://www.counterpunch.org/giordano10012007.html
Apparently among pragmatists, threatening the first use of nuclear weapons against a country that poses no threat to the USA (”All options are on the table”) … this is OK with them, Axiom of Automatic Support for the Least Worst holds strong, no problem.
Well then as Al Giordano points out in the above link, there are countless corrupt practices that will come nastily out in the campaign that could result in a loss in 2008.
simply calling them ‘right wing talking points’ won’t make them go away.
Pragmatists should ponder prevention of a Clinton nomination if they really want the (D) faction to seize the levers of power in Washington.
On the other hand,
The Iron Law of Institutions is: the people who control institutions care first and foremost about their power within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution “fail” while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to “succeed” if that requires them to lose power within the institution.
portia.vz @ 162
i can’t stomach hillary.. no money in my pocket.
No it is NOT a right. There is NO Constitutional right to drive. There is NO right to drive, period. ALL states declare driving a privilege, NOT a right. There is no inherent, inalienable, Constitutional right to drive. It really is that simple.
DR @ 143
Who ARE you? I mean, what is the point of that post? Was that a subtle way of planting some truthiness here?
She’s progressive and her voting record proves it. Are you so confident that posters are too lazy to go look it up?
Well, HERE! I’ve made it easy for you. DemocraticLuntz has done the work for you. Scroll down thru his many diaries on Clinton’s votes. Pay particular attention to the ones between Clinton and Edwards. If people are basing their support for Edwards on his voting record, they are going to be sadly disappointed.
OldCoastie @ 60
If Hillary is so lacking in support then why do Edwards and Obama think she is a threat? Why did they go on the attack against her, rather than look “Presidential” (which they definitely did NOT).
These guys don’t simply use the MSM polls…they havev their own pollsters seeing much the samev thing.
They KNOW that Hillary is ahead in their OWN polls…OF DEMOCRATS!!! That is why they have to challenge her…she is STRONG amongst Democrats. And these are DEMOCRATS with choices in the primaries. I understand that these other candidates need to draw differences between Hillary and themselves, but I really think last night they took Russerts bait and jumped in like pack dogs.
That made them look very UNPRESIDENTIAL. Clinton could have been challenged on her votes without it getting quite so personal. The need to recognize her INTENT at the same time as drawing attention to the risks giving Bush any opening to justify war with Iran. It does need to be pointed out Constitutionally that there is a major difference between a non-binding resolution and a Resolution granting a President Powers under the War Powers Act. Clinton DID contribute to the drumbeat to war with Iran by supporting the Kyl/Lieberman Resolution…but she didn’t authorize Bush to do so.
Praedor Atrebates @ 166
no it’s not a RIGHT. but that’s not the issue. it’s a function of safety, and security. Safety so that illegals don’t drive without being qualified to drive(which they do anyways)…republican governers aren’t doing this because they have soft hearts.
She’s so progressive the ‘Defense’ contractors lavish her with
bribesdonations, putting her in the top 10 in Congress who receive the most from them!It’s amazing that someone like Kuchinich, who is even more progressive, doesn’t get lavished with even more funding from these corporate military behemoths.
If you beleive H. Clinton is a progressive, then it is a great time to buy condos in Miami.
wonkish statistics, credible research, yum!
The worse one-sided attack on any person by that persons own party and the terrible hatchet job done by the press, I have ever seen in my life. I have been voting since 1972 and this my friend was
the worse.
Portia.vz said -
I have moved Daily Kos way down on my reading list for just that reason. The problem for the most part isn’t the front pagers but the Hillary-bashing diaries that make the recommend list. She doesn’t deserve the bile that is directed in her direction from the Daily Kos diarists.
Why is Hillary unelectable in a ge. It’s not because she is brave or the adventurous type. It’s because she is annoying and she is annoying because the Clintons are vapid careerists.
Cinnamanope, Alvord, Portia, Kefa – are you all coming from the same IP range?
Or, seperately getting paid by the Clinton campaign?
two can play the baseless accusation game.
can you deign to explain how someone who threatens to nuke Iran and is lavishly paid by ‘Defense’ lobbies is progressive???
Baloney.
Cinnamanope, Alvord, Portia, Kefa,
Are you paid operatives of Hillary. There are serious questions regarding Hillary and the progressive have every right to ask them. Considering that she’s asking for their votes.
Unlike the wingnuts, ‘the wolf in sheeps clothing’ gig is well known.
Sorry Scarecrow….but Hillary is not electable which is why the GOP is concentrating on making her appear the best shot against them…she is the one they want to run against as they suspect they will get both the anti woman vote as well as the anti clinton vote….and they suspect quite rightly. She is too well handled…pat answers…middle of the road..and God knows we have had far more than we need of a president who is handled.
“Unity”? I think not. Consider:
You are asking us to ignore the simple fact that Hillary Clinton does not want to, in fact, CANNOT make Iraq an issue in this election!!!
This is NOT rocket science; if we nominate someone who JUST LIKE BUSH AND THE GOP, doesn’t want the “I” word spoken in the campaign, we are doomed from the start. Iraq is THE stick with which we can beat them like a rented mule, and here you are, scolding us because a lot of us don’t want, and are scared shitless of, a candidate who wants to stay as far away from that stick as she can possibly get.
To me, that is WAAAY enough reason to oppose her, and to continue to point to her track record over the past few years.
But of course, it doesn’t end there.
Fact:
There is not ONE of the republican dwarves who can galvanize conservative voters ACROSS THE BOARD the way Hillary Clinton can.
She will be worth 5%-10% in turnout increase to the GOP, and she could be worth that in an election in which, if we pick Edwards or Obama, the polls will show them winning by margins that will keep many republicans home, instead of having them vote.
Conversely, if the democrats nominate Clinton, the election will be a cliffhanger from start to finish, IF we’re lucky. And we all know what’s been happening with cliffhangers.
There is no great enthusiasm among republicans for any of the GOP candidates. At heart, even the base recognizes them for what they are, a bunch of political hacks and opportunists, reaching for a “prize”, the GOP nomination, which in this election, of all recent elections, SHOULD be nothing but an ass-whipping of historical proportions. They are sacrificial goats.
That is, they’re sacrificial goats, unless we let Hillary turn them into Lincolns and Washingtons.
Do her supporters think that conservative voters will turn out to vote against Edwards with the same joyful zeal that they will, to vote against Hillary? Please, tell us you don’t think that.
For the people defending her, and begging for “unity”, tell us which candidate is the most likely to suffer a close election, in this year in which we have a golden opportunity for a landslide, to consign the conservatives to the political wilderness for years to come.
And if you think that that candidate is NOT Hillary Clinton, can you tell us why?
If she loses, her “coattails” will certainly cost us the Senate, and probably, the House, along with it. That means that Giuliani, the likely nominee for the repubs, will have a Senate that would rubberstamp Ann Coulter for the court.
How can you hammer those of us who are against her as our presidential nominee, and for pointing out the truth about her record and about where she stands on the most important issue of the election, Iraq?
We have not even had the FIRST primary, and you guys are playing the “unity” card.
She and her staff know perfectly well that she has to win this quickly or not at all. With every week that passes, the questions will get tougher for her as Iraq grows in importance, and she and her supporters simply cannot stand to have that miserable reality intrude into the campaign.
That’s why the establisment supporting her are frantically trying to get the New Hampshire primary, which is (supposedly) a “safe” primary for her, moved up ahead of the Iowa primary, which is very much in play.
Think of this: if she wins the nomination we could have the sorry spectacle of the REPUBLICANS bringing up Iraq, to beat HER with, if she tries to flip-flop on it.
Likewise, the democrats running in the House and Senate races will not be able to point, with any credibility, to Iraq for the GOP-engineered debacle it is, for the simple reason that the democratic nominee for president doesn’t think that the invasion was a mistake.
It’s horrible. She will ruin us.
‘Crow, you’ve put up some good threads on here, but you missed this one, all to hell and gone.
Too many good, progressive democrats who, just like me, used to think highly of Clinton, have watched her crawl into bed with the very people who have brought us to this point, for us to salivate when someone rings the “unity” bell. That’s nothing but Clintonista beg-speak for:
“You guys stop pointing out the truth about her track record, and about how many republicans, independents, and conservatives ACROSS the board, have a visceral hatred of her. Just shut up and fall in rank like good little democrats, while the MSM and the beltway dems who are little more than bush’s poodles, finish marketing her.”
The people supporting her and calling for unity, have it 180 degrees wrong. Far from things being so tight that we have to run someone whom, it is painfully obvious, is nothing but bush-lite, in the effort to “triangulate” and somehow trick conservatives into voting for her, we have so MANY issues on our side, most effectively, Iraq, that the ONLY chance the GOP has, is if we are politically suicidal enough and stupid enough, to nominate Hillary Clinton.
portia.vz @ 162
Ohhhhhh, spying on dissenters? How very Rovian.
dachoste @ 160
And that is precisely the point. How CAN the Republicans attack her for taking money from lobbyists? Can they attack her for supporting SCHIP? They can’t suggest that they were “leaders” on Health Care…unless you argue that Giuliani’s give $15000 in tax cuts to pay for private UNsurance (and do away with employer and government health care coverage) is “leading”. What a great idea…if you pay $15000 in taxes or more. If you pay $2000, well you can seek out $2000/yr. coverage plans and hope that they don’t cut you off if you have a chronic illness or pre-existing condition.
I’m not sure HOW the PUgs can attack her for her votes on the non-binding Kyl-Lieberman resolution (or the Iraq vote)…explain that to me? Was it because it wasn’t a BINDING resolution? Or that she now is “waffling” because she believes that we should start pulling out troops, not get engage in a Civil War, and leave only enough troops with a rapidly diminishing al Qaida threat? Yeah, that’s gonna win over all those folks that want us TO GET INVOLVED IN THE SUNNI-SHI’A CONFLICT!
The Republicans can really go after folks like Obama and Edwards much more readily because they can frame their positions as MORE crazy “liberal” stuff. Now I think that their ideas are great…but the Republicans don’t, and they can use these to mobilize the right.
BTW, speaking of the marketing of Hillary by the MSM:
Chris Matthews has made a career out of flaying the hide off her.
Why do you think he’s now giggling like a teen-age boy who’s just learned how to masturbate, at the prospect of Clinton-Giuliani?
Tanbark @ 178
amen brother, tell it!
good point about Iraq being the winning issue, and an issue that H Clinton cannot credibly wield against the (R)’s.
Hiflyer @ 177
Why are the right wing taking shots at Hillary, then? And why did Russert essentially frame questions that woukld open Hillary as the main punching-bag of the evening?
I don’t see any way that this suggests that the Pugs WANT to face Hillary. They would much prefer Edwards, Obama, or yes…Kucinich.
Russert dismissed Kucinich in one question. That’s what Timmeh thought of the “risk” from Kucinich. Look at exactly how much he continually asked questions that allowed Edwards and Obama to attack Clinton and then ignored the moderating efforts of Richardson and Biden. I didn’t hear any of Edwards “positive” campaigning, or Obamas “reach out” last night. They got off their message.
Diogenes@179:
Absolutely!
If we point out the truth about Hillary’s track record, we’re traitors.
Talking about her cozy relationship with A*PAC, and the money she’s taken from a lobbying group whose main agenda is helping george bush gin up an attack on Iran?
Incivisme!
Bringing up the simple fact that she doesn’t think that invading Iraq was a mistake?
Quel Horreur!
Asking how, in the general, she’s going to go after bush and the republicans for pissing away that $2.5 billion a week in Iraq, and for all those missing billions, when she’s supported the war and the “surge” so faithfully?
Heavens to Murgatroid!
Asking how she’s going to bring up the 4,000 dead troops that we’ll be looking at by mid-summer, when she has never recanted her authorizing vote?
Ruler-rap on knuckles. “Put your head on your desk for 10 minutes.”
I say again, Karl Rove has sexual fantasies about watching her make an acceptance speech at the Democratic convention.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
“anyone who had the temerity to tackle health care reform before its time”
She whiffed on the tackle and I, like millions of others haven’t had health insurance in years. If I get really sick or in an accident I’ll be wiped out.
My brother is also a college graduate. As one after another of his employers merged, downsized, or went out of business his degenerative hip got worse and he found himself unemployed and unemployable because of his pre existing condition. He lost his girlfriend and spent two years on unemployment before he got lucky and an old college buddy got him a union job with benes driving a street sweeper. After 6 months on the job he was finally able to get the hip replacement surgery.
Trying to use Hillary’s ghastly failure on healthcare reform isn’t a plus for her.
Bravo Tanbark!!! Progressives need to hear these points before they get suckered into voting for the doll of the neocons.
Most have forgotten here dalliances with A*PAC..
Clinton is NOT good under attack
One of her claimed strengths is that she had been attacked relentlessly and that she can handle that.
However, she has not handled questions on the stump well, and she was flustered last night. She has NOT be well vetted in this area of being strong.
She is only good in scripted circumstances. I think she will wilt under Republican attack.
Everyone has bought into that idea – Clinton knows how to handle attacks. She doesn’t. She starts to chatter and contradict herself. I think she has been in a bubble in the senate and during this race.
When challenged about her position she tried every which way to not answer the question with what she believed. She needed a poll first. This is not good for a Democratic president.
Her supporters taut that she has had experience with the Republican attack machine. She was easily knocked off her game last night and the attacks were mere observations about what she has done. They were challenging her positions which is what they need to do.
I think her problem at the core is that she doesn’t really stand for principles but is only in the game to win power. So she is looking for the right answer instead of giving the right answer from her heart or her mind. She shows NO LEADERSHIP on anything and certainly not in the moment.
I think her skills in withstanding attacks are highly over-rated. And I am really surprised. I was expecting her to do better. If this is how she responds she would be demolished by the Republican attack machine.
Tanbark @ 178
Absolutely perfect, Tanbark, as only you can state it…
CinnamonGrape, I think the dwarves have realized that the best way they can help her win the nomination, is to dogpile on her to make her a sympathetic figure for the dems, in the hope that will piss off enough of them that they will ignore her continuing support for the shitmire, and on how, instead of having the courage to lead, on the issues important to we progressives, she’s been nothing but a poll-watcher, and that democrats will vote for her in the primaries because they think that Rudy, ect., hate her.
They DO hate her, but they’re also smart enough to know that their ONLY chance for winning in 2008 rests with having Hillary Clinton to run against.
Of course, too, flaying Hillary is ALWAYS good red meat to toss to the base, and at this point, they can’t resist taking swings at her.
God’s work, if you’re a republican, and issues be damned. Which is why the conservatives will knee-walk to the polls to vote against her in the general.
that they will have her to run against.
I just looked in my pockets– there is no money!!! i am against HRC –beeeecaaause she couldn’t find time to read the 90 page intelligence reports before voting in favor of the use of force against IRAQ. She voted for the use of force , not so the president could use force, but because he needed a stick to demand inspections. IS THERE REALLY ANYTHING UP THERE?? I think Kucinich’s UFO’s are more credible. Oh and by the way if you vote to label a part of another governments military as terrorists, you have chosen to end diplomacy.
cinnamonape @ 180
that’s exactly my point.. the very issues that we as progressives point out that make her unpalatable for us, are non starters as republican attacks… so for progressives to point them out (because it’s important to us) don’t do anything to strengthen the republican cause. therefore any points of contention need to aired out with as much gusto as possible NOW.
sporkovat @ 174
Sporkovat/Stogo- The handle’s Cinnamonape…NOT CINNAMANOPE.
BTW I’m not sure where I accused you personally of anything. It seems that it’s you who are making a false accusation here. I only use ONE handle on this site, and I’m not paid by the Clinton campaign.
She isn’t even my first choice…she’d be about #5 or 6 on my list. It’s just that I don’t happen to believe that she is any less electable than Edwards or Obama. In fact, although I would have my druthers and think that progressives would be more electable, I suspect that she has the best shot against the Republicans.
That doesn’t mean that I support her campaign or her positions on Iran or Iraq. I think that your killing the bearer of bad news.
Oh…and have you considered that much of the Clinton “Never Would Vote For Her” in the ABC/WashPo survey I cited are not from Republicans at all. Judging from my impressions on this site there’s a good number of progressives (some who feel a need of using multiple handles to make it appear that they are more numerous than they are) who won’t vote for her. So maybe half (or a quarter, who can guess with such fuckery) of those folks that make up her 41% who won’t support her are progressives…and half conservatives.
That means even fewer hard-core right wingers that would never vote for a Clinton (or a Gore…or a Kerry) are out there than in earlier races. Maybe that has something to do with 6 years of a failed Bush Presidency.
How does a lawyer (who, as one of the 100 best attorneys in the country could write her own ticket) choose to work here:
“We represent management in all forms of state and federal litigation involving claims under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, the American with Disabilities Act, and the Family and Medical Leave Act. We practice before governmental agencies, including, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the National Labor Relations Board, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, the Mine and Safety Health Administration, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and other Department of Labor agencies. We also advise clients on union avoidance, organizing campaigns and union representation elections.”
http://www.roselawfirm.com/practice/management.asp
and be considered progressive?
Explanation, anyone?
Hillary is a nightmare. I’ll hold my nose and vote for her if I have to. But, I firmly believe if she gets the nomination she’ll lose and we’ll four more years of GOP madness.
dachoste @ 191
I understand now. Good point. But at the same time it’s important to realize that Hillary’s positions are NOT those of the leading Republicans by any means. Perhaps we as “progressives” are focused on differences that appear to us to be vast…but to folks like Giuliani, Romney, and McCain are simply nuances.
diogenes @ 179
I don’t agree that people should be tracked for their views on the candidates. But some folks are being a bit abusive towards others. Generally the mods put folks who do this into “moderation”.
But I understand the rule on this site is one “handle” per person. We do seem to have a lot of “new” visitors. That does raise the issue of “trolls” sometimes.
sorry cinnamonape,
it was portia who raised suggestions of sockpuppeting, paid advocay, etc.
Voted for war on Iraq (fooled by evil men?)
Voted for war on Iran (fooled again?)
Voted for Patriot ActI (power to the President)
Voted for Patriot Act II (more power to President)
Co-sponsor - flag desecration measure
This candidate is nothing but Bush lite. She will not get US out of Iraq (residual forces = occupation) and will be goose-stepping into Iran with George W. Bush.
The times can not allow identity politics to come into play. If it’s Clinton in 08 you know I’m gonna say:
Strike/Boycott 08
Whatever was thrown at her last night pales in comparison to what she will receive from the other side if she’s the nominee. Trust that the campaign will be the most brutally negative you’ve ever experienced. Perhaps you might feel it will be overplayed, but her negatives are already pretty high.
we were just privileged to witness a trial balloon for Nov 08 — when the (D) captured netroots will be in high gear, trying to keep the sheep in the pen, despite such obvious points as were raised here, like
as ed kriner says
Mr. Ed@199: “Whatever was thrown at her last night pales in comparison with what she will receive from the other side if she’s the nominee.”
That’s…horse sense, to me. :o)
And, I’ve heard very little from the dwarves about the the “Hsu-being-on-the-other-foot” funding issue. Maybe I just missed it, but I think they’ve got that stashed back in their munitions bunker. And it WILL play in Peoria.
With two months until Iowa, I want it to play in Des Moines. Let’s get it out and look at it now, not when it’s part of the icing on the GOP cake.
RL @ 194
Looks like I better get moving on those “Hillary” clothespins I mentioned earlier.
And I submit to you that it is the PRIMARY!!! This is the part of the program where people point out the differences of the candidates IN THE SAME PARTY. Telling people they are “repeating republican talking points” for doing their duty as responsible voters is a big fat republican shut-up stick!!!!!
Hillary is NOT the de-facto NOMINEEE!!!! OR is this the Democratic Party’s ramroding through a completely unqualified candidate the way the pubbies did with bush in 1999????
Someone please line out for me her “35 years” of solid experience, will you? Because this woman’s resume is full of biiiiiig holes.
Could we please discuss, in detail, the candidate based on their policies? Could we compare their policies and see what is the best fit POLICY wise to make progress and get us outta this ditch in the most efficient and sustainable manner? Pleeeeease? We should be analyzing thaaaat, not keep trying to play the game which got us here. Arrrrrgh.
sporkovat @ 174
No I am not paid by the Clinton campaign and I don’t know the other commenters on your list, much less share an IP address.
If you are so certain of your point of view why are you making stuff up (e.g. Clinton never threatened to nuke Iran. She has consistently called for diplomacy.)
I swear, some of you so-called progressive Clinton bashers are as bad as the repugs.
Alvord – the sock puppet thing was insinuated by portia. sorry to include you.
as for
are you acquainted with the right wing talking point frequently uttered by dick cheney that “all aptions are on the table” in regards to Iran?
Obviously when one says that, one is including the first use of nuclear weapons, otherwise one wouldn’t pointedly say “all.”
Roy E Pearson @ 8
You poor fool, they will eviscerate anyone. That’s the way they roll. Argue that your candidate’s position is better, fine. Argue that Hillary’s position has weaknesses. But couldn’t you see the Russert-NBC Axis egging on the attacks on Hillary? They’re moving on her just like they moved on Dean: not because of anything but that she’s a Democrat. Russert’s Raccoon Lodge at NBC is a pack of Republican shills, and they’ve been gunning for Hillary for a long time.
First the frontrunner. Then they’ll pick off the candidate. Don’t believe me? Read Media Matters on the “balance” on Press the Meat.
Jim H – We don’t regard folks here that way.
Constructive, if you please.
We can all be proud of the manly male presidential candidates and their anchor supporters who showed up last night. Not a one of them would have been left standing had they been the attacked instead of the attacker.
Your statement that “going negative on Senator Clinton was a mistake”, is a mistake in and of itself. Hillary has a history of flip flopping, side-stepping, and in some cases flat out lying in regard to things she has said in the past.
This woman should be challenged immediately whenever the opportunity presents itself…she simply does not tell the truth…and continues to play the Democratic as fools. The truth about Senator Clinton should be exposed NOW so the Democrats can clearly see how deceiving and manipulative this woman really can be!!
Sorry, scarecrow. But this lifelong progressive, Democrat, feminist who also, BTW, is a NY constituent of Sen. Clinton’s thinks you are carrying water for the Right Wing Loonies, the Hillary Triangulators. Or, maybe, paradoxically, both.
1. Where’d you get those poll results that Hillary got the smallest “I’d never vote for that one” numbers?? Cuz the Zogby Poll numbers I’ve seen CONCLUDE THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Hillary got more NEVER, NOT EVER votes of no confidence that even the most laughable straw men of the GOP.
2. The right wing nut wurlitzer — and the RNC — does not have to tell me Hillary Clinton is unelectable. I’ve got eyes, ears and a memory that extends beyond a mayfly lifetime. I came to the defense of the Clintons back in 1998, when “Censure & MoveOn” started up in CA.
And I don’t need a GOP Braille Playbook to tell me that Hillary has been tap-dancing around taking gobs of cash from Merchants of Death (defense industry contractors) AND Big Pharma/Big Insurance. And she is defiant about continuing to take the loot. Are we supposed to be suspicious about Hillary’s watery health care plan — the one that leaves all the Profits Over People private profit motive in place — that Hill’s weak-kneed health care plan has nada to do with the lobbyist change weighting down her pockets? Or that she’ll keep us in Iraq till 2017 — which SHE said, not the Repukelicans. And that has nothing to do with the money she’s taking??
Watch Hillary Clinton tap-dance and triangulate for a while. Then tell us that we are just suckers for a right-wing line of B.S. And, BTW, who are YOU working for??
AP article be Ron Founier, interviewed many worried (D) operatives and politicians. But, as referenced in my post above citing the Iron Law of Institutions, the Clinton machine doesn’t care who goes down, as long as they remain at the top of the heap.
win at all costs (D) pragmatists, take heed, Clinton is the one who can assure defeat.
http://apnews.myway.com/articl…..K9501.html
i think that no one has liked the Clintons,since the disgretion of bill. pelple need to relize that that was there personal life and it had nothing to do with how he or she will run for office. i thinnk that the clintons or for the people and can help the states in this mess that we are in
I think it is funny how the blog-left folks I have been reading for the past year have suddenly decided Sen Clinton is needs defending from Democrats, or that Democrats are somehow taking cheap shots at her. I think that is utterly wrongheaded and inaccurate. Obama, Edwards, Dodd–they are raising acceptable distinctions about the Clinton way to doing business in Washington (with which she is both familiar and quite comfortable). In particular, in Bush’s Washington (where again she claims to shine and flourish). Critics are making it sound like the press they are criticizing: ooooh, they’re picking on a girl! Ooooh, she can take it!
Clinton answered the questions like the experienced insider she is. If you wish to call that “Presidential”, you are welcome to. But I think the point of her critics last evening is “THAT’s the problem!”.
sporkovat @ 211
This is another point that I make to folks: Clinton is pure poison to many other Democrats, especially in the transitional parts of the country that the Dem Party needs back in the Blue column. She will have all the allure and attraction of Jane Fonda on the ticket. I happen to like Jane Fonda, but I would not run for office with her on the same ticket.
cinnamonape @ 196,
portia painted with a mighty broad brush, one that could reasonably include me and other genuine progressives who do not support Hillary.
Moreover, I have total confidence in how Jane & co. run this blog.
Perhaps portia could do likewise?
Many on this site have correctly pointed out the Stalinesque tactics of this administration.
How then, can a good progressive propose them?
portia.vz @ 162
portia.vs – I’d be happy to provide my ip address, location, and all sources of income to Scarecrow. And you?
Myrtle June,
I don’t even know my IP address!
Hillary detractors come from all over and need no assistance from anyone but HRC herself. Her record of triangulation, obfuscation, lobby friendly, and anti-consumer practices are there for all who have eyes. She is not a progressive, she stands for big money, big government and American exceptionalism.
do you notice every time their is a dirty trck like this in the media timmeh is involved?coincidence or did he instigate a clearly fixed fight.kyle-lieberman i dont know about how we get out really shouldnt be up to the president and i am very impressed with hillarys ability to get help from smart people but using wingnut talking points should get you sent to a timeout and when timmeh does something really stupid like ufos and negative ratings on hillary just roll our eyes unplug his mike and let joe biden tell him why
SeamusD@218 is spot on.
My 2c, I don’t need anyone to pay me to CRAVE to take advantage of the bloody misery that bush and the warpimps, using outright lies and all manner of bullshit, have created in Iraq.
And taking advantage of that, means nominating someone who can go after them full-bore in the general.
And if Clinton’s defenders on here can tell us how someone who doesn’t think that invading Iraq was a mistake, and who, just like George Bush, is willing to “pre-emptively” attack Iran, can do that, then I’d like to hear it.
M E Marr @ 210
Don’t know if it was the poll scarecrow cited but the AP/Washigton Post Pol of Sept 26-30 based on RANDOM calls to over 1000 people indicates that she has the lowest “I’d never vote for her” numbers…and that this had dropped by almost 10% from the last poll.
But to be fair the differences between Edwards and Obama and Clinton were statistically insignificant they were all about 39-43%. The trends were more interesting though. Edwards and Obama were increasing in their negative perceptions…in addition to losing support from the “definitely will support” end (which was much lower than Clinton).
The Zogby poll you cite has some problems.
“Zogby Poll: Half Say They Would Never Vote for Hillary Clinton for President; Other top tier candidates in both parties win more acceptance; Richardson & Huckabee favored most”
While she is winning wide support in nationwide samples among Democrats in the race for their party’s presidential nomination, half of likely voters nationwide said they would never vote for New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, a new Zogby Interactive poll show.
AHA! A Zogby INTERACTIVE POLL!
The online survey of 9,718 likely voters nationwide showed that 50% said Clinton would never get their presidential vote. This is up from 46% who said they could never vote for Clinton in a Zogby International telephone survey conducted in early March. Older voters are most resistant to Clinton – 59% of those age 65 and older said they would never vote for the New York senator, but she is much more acceptable to younger voters: 42% of those age 18–29 said they would never vote for Clinton for President.
Zogby’s on-line surveys are ripe for manipulation.For one thing the pool consists of peopel who…ta-da…visit the Zogby polling website. Now just who would those people be? Are they random? Or are they going to be folks that are intensely political, looking for survey information…folks like those involved in campaigns.
Next…just how easy is it for individuals to register multiple identities on the survey. Actually, quite easy. Thus, like the wonderful “Family Research Center” straw poll that Mitt Romney won…”proving” that he is accepted by Christian fundamentalists. It can be stuffed. And that’s exactly what Romney and Ron Paul did to that on-line poll.
I think it would be much harder to taint a random phone survey by AP than a Zogby Internet Interactive Poll based on registrations from their website.
diogenes @ 217
I don’t need it. I was only asking portia.vs since they asked for mine. I’ve got nothing to hide but I’m now wondering what in the heck is going on in a country that will not move forward and only wants to relive the past. Its a sad sad state of affairs.
Like that movie “Groundhog Day”.
I live outside the bubble, as does most of the country. A vote hasn’t even been cast in the first Primary and the messaging is that Hillary is the candidate, “get behind and push”. Now, I don’t know where that messaging is coming from but its starting to look like its from the Democratic Party. Its another shoot yourself in foot move, if it is coming from them. Anything “top-down” or parental is not a Democratic message. Plus, it will only end up suppressing voter registration and turn out. Whose going to vote if the message is “Hillary is the Nominee”? Its ridiculous.
I wasn’t and wouldn’t ask for your IP address, diogenes. Its the ones who are asking for it you have to quesiton. :-)
Myrtle June,
Sometimes the humor in my head doesn’t translate onto the screen – my bad.
I love how you called out portia!
seems firedoglake has crowned hilary as president too bad shes a republican and i’ll never vote for her give me edwards or i wont vote f these republican lite types
CinnamonApe at 221 …
Ah, yes. That’s what it’s all about. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo. And my poll source is much much better than yours. And Zogby sucks. And what I say is true; what you say ain’t.
How’s the weather there in Planet-of-One Land?
diogenes @ 223
Oh! :D :D Sorry, here too. Didn’t read that right *blush* Liked your posts too! :-)
pat allen at 224 …
QUOTE
Could not agree, more 224. I’ve been defending BOTH Clintons since 1993 and would continue to do so as deeply ethical and “good” people. But that doesn’t mean Hillary is presidential material … however regally she projects while under observation/questioning in an observation/questioning venue such as candidate debate. Give us a break, Hillary Apologists. You’re talking about the founders of the Bend-Over-DLC and All-You-Need-Is-Compromise wishy-washy politicos. Bill and Hillary wrote the book on smarmy middle-of-the-roadness. Didn’t you read Bill’s book? He says the Rabid Repubs are “good” people, just of differing opinion. WTF? Such wimpy compassion for rabid mad dogs. This behavior should NOT be rewarded.
portia.vz @ 162
Hillary undermines herself. All her opponents have to do is point it out.
If Hillary can’t take the heat she ought to get out of the kitchen.
cinnamonape @ 168
who said she lacked support. The problem is she has supporters who don’t seem to care that she’s deeply flawed. The problem is she has supporters who don’t really know anything about her except she was supposedly a co-president with her husband (though they won’t allow archival records out to confirm it).
They went on the attack because that’s part of what debates are about. You ‘attack’ your opponent on their personal qualities, their voting records, their experience (or lack thereof) and other things which would show the public that candidate’s inappropriateness for the presidency. You do favor having people learn about a candidate before voting them into office, where they can authorize using nuclear weapons, don’t you?
Everybody knows Hillary is well-known nationally and is leading those polls. It’s no big secret. I don’t read polls and even I know that.
Everybody knows, as the election near, everybody wants to win and with her in the lead they have to fight harder to change that.
Can you specify some things they said or did which were inappropriate for a debate of candidates for the most important political position in the world?
Oh, what did they do in challenging her that was personal?
Uh, actually she did. By designating a part of the Iranian military as a terrorist organization there are specific legal ramifications. It’s not just a superficial irrelevant vote.
Hillary wants to be president. The process shouldn’t be personal, but can be ever so close to it since intellect, character, life experiences and the like are relevant to deciding whether someone is going to be up to the job.
If Hillary can’t take the heat, then how would she ever be able to handle the job?
If Hillary can’t tell America what she stands for without flip-flopping within 10 seconds, then how would we know what she might do as president? And, if you don’t know what she might do, then why on earth would you ever put her in that position?
Hillary was raised Republican and became a Goldwater Girl. Now they compare her to John Kennedy. The contrast is startling and disgusting. I’d rather she went home to New York or Arkansas or Chicago or wherever chameleons come from.