If one of the cardinal rules of progressive politics is that you never repeat the talking points by which your opponents beat up on your own party, then what are we to think of last night's Democratic debate, in which a principal tactic used by some of the non-Clintons was to repeat Republican talking points about Hillary Clinton?
I can understand why the non-Clinton Democratic candidates, having watched her pull away in recent national polls (though not in Iowa), feel obliged to challenge Senator Clinton on the merits of her positions, her Senate votes on Iraq and Iran, the soundness of her ideas, judgments and statements in contrast to their own. Drawing these contrasts is certainly legitimate, and it probably helps voters make up their minds, though it's frankly still a mystery to me why voters like or dislike and eventually come to favor one candidate over another.
But the argument that Clinton in unelectable because her "negatives" are too high -- that she's so disliked Americans won't vote for her -- has always seemed one of those unproven Republican talking points that I suspect they only wish were true, even while they ignore the margin of her last Senate election victory. To be sure, early polls have shown high negatives for Clinton, but it's also true that part of that has been driven by 15 years of incessant vilification by a right wing unable to cope with a strong woman candidate, a liberal or anyone who had the temerity to tackle health care reform before its time. There has always been something deceptive and despicable about the rightwing attacks on the Clintons, the dishonorable Starr prosecutions and the unrelenting, but unsuccessful efforts to link the Clintons to Whitewater "corruption." Are the Democrats now to feed that hate-filled frenzy by hinting those are valid arguments, or by making undifferentiated attacks claiming, with nothing more specific, that because she swims in America's money-drenched politics, she is so inherently corrupt as to disqualify her, but not them?
The Republicans can be expected to try this again, but their motivation is as much diversion as anything. What I suspect is that all of the Republican front runners have significantly higher "negatives" -- and deservedly so -- than Hillary Clinton or most of the Democrats. Wasn't there a poll not long ago that tested how many voters would refuse to vote for each candidate -- and Hillary turned out to have the smallest problem on that score? [Update: see this comparative "negatives" poll. (h/t cinnamonape)]
The Republican right wing has been mindlessly fixated on its dislike of the Clintons for over 15 years. But the high approval ratings Bill Clinton held even during impeachment tells us that the right wing hatreds do not automatically transfer to the general electorate. And yet the right apparently believes that if they repeat the "Hillary can't win because everyone hates her" mantra often enough, and have it amplified by the Establishment talking heads, the inevitable debate question, and an all too unquestioning media, it can move from mantra to self-fulfulling prophecy. If that's the strategy, why are prominent Democrats feeding that theme?
If they want to talk about "negatives," perhaps Democrats should note that the Republican field is littered with candidates awash in "negatives" -- important ones. We find men who, like George Bush, are grossly uninformed and even less curious, and who, like George Bush, hold dangerous, authoritarian views about government's power over individuals, along with arrogantly imperialist views about how American should interact with the world. We see political chameleons -- Guiliani, Romney, McCain -- who abandon long-held principles and openly pander to those they once abhorred. Can anyone trust these people with our national security or anything else that matters?
At a time when the American people are crying out for effective, honest and fair government, the Republican candidates come across as mostly anti-government, biased against the middle class and the poor, and especially immigrants. Americans respond to tolerance, but these men are intolerant Christianists, sometimes anti-non-Christian and often anti-science. And to a public sickened by lawlessness, these men come across as anti-Constitution, arguing the President is above the law. Most are indifferent to how America must look when it sanctions torture, rendition, indefinite imprisonment without habeas corpus. Where the public wants accountability and limits on abusive powers, the Republicans support unchecked spying, amnesty/immunity for lawbreakers and aggressive wars.
In short, the Republican candidates are walking billboards for "negatives" that could well make them -- not Hillary Clinton -- unelectable. They personify virtually every character trait that a large majority of the Americans have now rejected and want to see removed from the White House. And their only plausible strategy for winning in 2008 is to engage in personal character assassination of the Democratic candidate, hoping to turn off and drive away an electorate that is not merely willing but anxious to throw the Republican bums out.
I can't think of any reason why any Democratic candidate should help the Republicans keep their last hopes alive. Clinton, like any politician who has actually tried to accomplish something against the political tide, has "negatives," but I think the notion that they're disqualifying or make her unelectable, or that she can't overcome them is just nonsense; it flies in the face of her own history, her struggles, and her steady rise in national polls. And I think it's a mistake for any of the Democratic candidates to buy into this, perpetuate it, and enable it, no matter how badly they want to be President.
Photo: Clinton and Obama at Democratic Debate, Drexel University, Tim Shaffner/Reuters
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Caw-caw… G’morning, Scarecrow!
-MS
Zed.
Morning Scarecrow.
Missed it by THAT much!
Chris Dodd is dead to me
Good morning Scarecrow!
Good morning. Excellent post. I agree with it entirely.
Watching Edwards/Obama gang up on the only lady up there was pathetic and desperate-who would have thought they want to be president so bad! I really could not believe the dems would set up a circular firing squad for one of their own. Thank you scarecrow for your apt observations.
Your post brings to mind the fact that many people I know - including my girlfriend - put out that same line: she’s unelectable. Could it really be that so many are spouting this because of what they read and hear in the media. And, if so, is the media really so right-wing biased?
I’d not have thought so even five years ago…
HRC is not now my first choice, tho’ at one point, she was (and I’ve voted twice for her for senator). But I will admit that she is looking better and better. By the way, did I imagine it, or was Biden coming to her defense over and over last night - could he be a VP possibility?
-MS
Hooey. Richardson is right about personal attack, but strong debate on the issues and the way a person expresses those positions is important to the primary process. This is tame tot eh full blown Republican attack machine. They will eviserate Clinton. She is all over the place, she will not take a position where needed. SHe is in short Bush-lite. We need someone who will take the gloves off with the republicans and take a position against the Bush Foreign Adventurism.
Hillary is not it she has sided with that adventurism all too often.
I’m so sick of this “let’s you ‘n him/her fight” meme continually spewed by the Village idjits that I could just spit! Dims that buy into it are displaying even less brain cells than those calling for it.
Did I sleep through the festivities last night in Philadelphia or did my hearing leave me momentarily? Did Brian or Timmy mention FISA or the Telecom immunity question? Someone please tell me they did. Timmy’s question on “a pledge” to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon was the most idiotic statement of the evening and my hat is off to Denny K for the way he answered it.
In the debate last night the NBC team, especially Russert, played an active part in assisting the non-Clinton candidates attack Hillary through the questions they asked, especially at the beginning of the debate. Is that a proper role for NBC? I don’t think so.
Negative is here to stay. And when you put forward YOUR position, you contrast it to the other’s position and that is “negative”. It goes with the territory.
Of course you can contrast it with the repubs and ignore the dems… and appear more collegial in the process, but perhaps people respond to aggression and the negative stuff make one look tough?
It also helps to have moderators who aren’t reading Republican talking points.
My god, I was just listening to others watching it, and it could have just as easily been Dick Cheney asking the questions.
Does anyone think that the Republicans are not going to scrape up and invent negatives about whoever the Democratic nominee is. I like Chris Dodd, but he has to know that they would scrape up the most ridiculous crap against him if he were nominated. His Peace Corps service would become abject cowardice and collusion with some 2rd world terrorist group.
Alvord @ 11
Yes, I noticed that too. Absolutely reprehensible!
-MS
The immigration issue is the only thing holding the gooper haters together. Thompson will win the primary based on his position.
The MSM interviewers sound mostly like gossip columnists.
We need interviewers like Amy Goodman or Bill Moyers. I can’t watch these asshole pundits. They disgust me.
Alvord @ 11
and what about marginalizing Kucinich and then Tweety’s ridiculous little meme about the Democrats being the arty of UFO’s..
Sorry guys but I disagree. If you have something that is true you should bring it up. If it is not true the person bringing it up will suffer. If it doesn’t stick then you have just eliminated a talking point by demonstrating that it doesn’t work and if it does stick then maybe that person is not the right candidate.
today rudi said he won the debate because everyone was talking about him…
no one would have been talking about him if the gooper moderators had not brought him u.
fake news
this isn’t about the issues or facts that matter.
Katherine Graham Cracker:
With all due respect (I mean that!) it seems to me that Kucinich sort of marginalizes himself. I would vote for him in a sec, but (not meaning to contradict my position above, or Scarecrow’s point in the post) he REALLY does seem to make himself unelectable. Or so it seems to me…
Hope I haven’t become “infected” by media bias.
-MS
Morning all. Missed the debate so am only getting the hearsay from the Times. My uninformed take on all this is that Senator Clinton is walking a tightwire — as the leading and (so far) likely candidate, she can’t go too progressive because focus groups tell her that the American people aren’t there yet. None of us like that, but it’s the country we live in. At least Edwards and Dodd are occupying the empty space and moving the Overton Window towards our positions. A second point: apart from getting most (all!) the troops out of Iraq, it isn’t clear how to clean up the mess left us by the present criminal administration. As the presumptive candidate she is forced to be less candid about that disaster than the rest of them, because she will need wriggle room to work on it if she gets elected.
I’ve been impressed with her performance over the past few months: she is getting stronger and her voice is less strident. I think her ‘ear’ is improving as well. She is going up against very tough competition. She will gain from it.
I still prefer Edwards by a big margin as the person with the rhetorical skills to pull the United States through its coming very rough patch.
Thanks for reading my mind and putting it so much better than o was!
watertiger @ 13
I’m reading the stories, but I was flying back from Ohio and missed the live debate, so it’s helpful to hear these reactions. The view of Russert seems to be widely shared.
Going negative on any democratic candidate seeking the nomination is a mistake. That said, Obama’s statement that republicans continue to rail against her because that is fight that they are comfortable with is spot on. Republicans have no issue to rally their base to the polls other than Hillary.
Can some one point out in last night’s debate where Dodd said Hillary was unelectable?
Michael in Park Slope
“With all due respect (I mean that!) it seems to me that Kucinich sort of marginalizes himself.”
I think you are blaming the victim.
1,644 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND ..
Citizen Scarcrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I hope you are not conflating legitimate criticism of Mrs. Clinton with “Republican talking pointz”…because there are plenty of very real problems with Mrs. Clinton’s politics (or lack of them)and her political history (baggage, if you will) not to mention her fully vested corporate sponsors who dictate her political postures. I say “GO FOR IT DEMOCRATS” undress every candidate so that we don’t end up holdin’ a bag that doesn’t have anythin’ in it after the election (like what happened to us sfter this last one).
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T CUT THE BASTARDS ANY SLACK!!
Hillary would be a great president. Just like Scarecrow says, it drives me crazy that these Democrats are picking up on Hillary bashing Repug talking points. How about that “Clinton has a awkward relationship with the truth?” Last night, she gave a decent answer about what she thought about Spitzer’s immigration driving license thing, and they all said they didn’t understand what she thought about it.
The worst is that now all the Repug attacks can be prefaced with “Even Democrats agree,…(insert Hillary slur here).
did all the other D candidates really say clinton was unelectable during the debate?
sy @ 25
Russert quoted Dodd as having stated previously that Hillary’s electability was a problem and asked him to amplify. Dodd soft peddled it, but emphasized several times, in his answer, that electability was an important issue that Democratic voters must consider.
Sorry folks, but the only Democrat that Rove thinks the Republicans could possibly beat is Clinton. She is also the Democrat that big business is most comfortable with. When you couple that with the cost of BushCo’s failures coming home to roost on the next administration’s watch, and our obvious inability to pay for necessary domestic reforms in healthcare, social security and medicare due to war debt, we’re looking at a near perfect storm hitting the White House in the next cycle, and the Republicans want it to be Clinton staring into that gale.
We’re all ignoring the fact that the Democratic leadership is serving up the dish that Rove ordered.
great bad enough cnn has fat fu=k lou dobbs now he going to be on morning jerk spewing his hate and venom and probably talking about his new hero Chris Dodd
Watt4Bob @ 31
and you are suggesting what?
no matter who the candidate is –there will be a shitstorm of republican crap true or not
katherine Graham Cracker says:
“and you are suggesting what?
no matter who the candidate is –there will be a shitstorm of republican crap true or not”
Well, KGC, you just took the words out of my mouth (and by only seconds, too!).
-MS
In order to immunize the eventual Democratic candidate from Republican slander, we would have to start inventing accusations. Hillary Clinon claims to have invented the internet, issued herself a Congressional Medal of Honor while first lady, practiced satanic worship with Arkansas Highway Patrol, etc. Unless you intend to vote for Guiliani, or whoever, Democrats had better stop feeding lines to Limbaugh.
A classic double bind for Senator Clinton and her supporters.
The Senator desperately needs to assure the electorate that she can torture or invade Iran, just as competently as any constipated, angry white male.
To complain about her being “picked on” kinda queers that pitch.
oh, darn. it looks like i am going to have to listen to this “debate” - and i was so hoping to avoid it.
anyone know of an audio file of the complete “debate” i can download?
…oh and while i’m at it - how about an audio of edward’s latest NH speech?
i haven’t even started looking for either… so, i’m not asking anyone to do my looking for me… just if you happen to already know of a link. thx.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 27
There’s a difference in saying that Hillary shouldn’t be the candidate because she pushed too hard a decade ago for health care reform, or is too liberal — self defeating arguments for Dems to make — and saying that Hillary’s health care proposal now does not go far enough in dealing with the insurance problem. From there, it’s legitimate to ask whether any candidate’s heavy reliance on insurance industry contributions is bound to compromise how he/she conducts the negotiations to come. It’s a fine line, but the temptation to dog whistle to rightwing tunes is what I’m concerned about.
hate2haggle @ 10
No, you weren’t asleep. There were no constitutional or civil liberties-related questions at all! Instead, they were asked meatier questions about UFOs and Halloween costumes. NBC has fallen a long way.
This is something that I think the Dems should be hammering on constantly, with one voice. Instead of letting themselves be painted as the “weak on national security” party, they should be painting the administration and the Republicans as the “weak on Constitutional principles” or the “weak on civil liberties” party.
The debate was more about provoking tension between the candidates than about finding out what they really stand for.
Hillary would be a great president.
IMHO she would be an awful president who, by virtue of her need to be “tough”, will attack someone, anyone, as soon as she gets a chance.
Sticking with the party line is how Bush got elected - we don’t need any more of that. We should evaluate our candidates with an honest eye and a clear sense of what is beneficial and proper. If that means agreeing with the opposition beacuse what they say is the truth, then so be it.
Hillary is a follower - not a leader. It appears that she is trying to play the middle of the field (pro-war Democrat/Progressive), in order to look tough. If she will bend the truth in reaction to such weak pressure (hawkishness is yesterday’s faux virtue du jour), she’ll bend to similar pressures from the right.
Edwards and Kucinich don’t bend so easily.
Edwards/Kucinich ‘08.
I think it’s a cardinal rule that the less candid a candidate is and the more they are able to obfuscate and triangulate all the while appearing not to do so makes Hillary hard to beat. Please Al, save us.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op.....-rightrail
From the Los Angeles Times
Obama’s gospel mistake
He can’t have it both ways on gay issues in the black community.
By David Ehrenstein
October 31, 2007
Politics have provided gay Americans like myself with no end of schadenfreude in recent years, what with the antics of Mark Foley, Larry Craig and other I’m-not-gay Republicans. But last weekend, a competing Democratic farce debuted: Barack Obama’s three “Embrace the Change” concerts featuring Grammy-winning “ex-gay” gospel singer Donnie McClurkin.
All the characters in this melodrama played their roles to the hilt. Gay-rights organizations demanded that McClurkin be dropped. Numerous bloggers cast doubt on the fullness of McClurkin’s “recovery.” Obama’s campaign staff hastily added a gay minister to give an opening prayer. But it was McClurkin who dominated the event, claiming before an audience of about 2,000 Sunday in Columbia, S.C.: “I don’t speak against the homosexuals. I tell you that God delivered me from homosexuality. No matter what blog you read, let me tell you, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature!” (For all of McClurkin’s religious talk, biblical scholars remind us that Jesus had not a word to say on the subject.)
Adding fuel to this fire was Obama’s reply to questions about the concert. He haughtily told a reporter from the gay news magazine the Advocate, “If there’s somebody out there who’s been more consistent in including LGBT Americans in his or her vision of what America should be, then I would be interested in knowing who that person is.” (The answer, of course, is Dennis Kucinich.)
But what’s really on Obama’s mind isn’t LBGT Americans. It’s black voters. With so much of the African American vote snugly in Hillary Clinton’s pantsuit pocket, the Illinois senator clearly is hoping to make inroads before South Carolina’s crucial 2008 primary.
The offspring of a Kenyan father and a white American mother, Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia without much churchgoing until he grew up and ran for office. So he is not only a generation but a world away from the political leadership most of us African Americans have come to know. Putting on Baptist drag and staging a gospel music show is precisely the sort of pandering Obama had scrupulously avoided. Until now.
He’d also previously managed to sidestep — or stand astride — the gay-straight schism in the black community. In 2004, during his U.S. Senate run, Obama campaigned at Chicago’s Salem Baptist Church, whose leader, Rev. James Meeks, called same-sexuality “an evil sickness.” That was quickly forgotten, overshadowed by Obama’s eloquent speeches on hard-core Democratic issues, gay rights included, to turn-away crowds that treated him, as more than one commentator has noted, “like a rock star.”
Now a gospel star may have driven a wedge between Obama and his gay supporters and roiled others as well. For, by putting McClurkin in the spotlight, Obama has broken black America’s 11th Commandment: “Don’t talk about it in front of the white people!”
Black churches are so much at the center of African American public life, and so much in denial about the gays and lesbians in their pews and choir stalls. As the late Marlon Riggs said in “Tongues Untied,” his acclaimed 1990 documentary about gay blacks and AIDS, “How many choir directors have to die before we know who we are?” The “Embrace the Change” lineup reflects how this struggle is far from over. McClurkin, who is a minister at an evangelical church in New York, calls homosexuality a “choice” — needless to say the wrong one. The duo Mary Mary claims to love gays in a love-the-sinner kind of way, equating us with murderers or prostitutes. It is only Byron Cage of the Mighty Clouds of Joy who has been actively working to heal the gay-straight divide.
Gays played pivotal roles in African American history, but the community continues to wish away their sexuality. Blues legends Bessie Smith, Alberta Hunter and Ethel Waters all took female lovers. (Impresario Leonard Reed once said Waters was “so mean she married her second husband to spite her girlfriend when she found out she was sleeping with him.”) Gay composer Billy Strayhorn gave the Duke Ellington Orchestra its sound, including its theme song, “Take the A Train.” The fabled Harlem Renaissance was, frankly, a gay and lesbian movement led by the likes of Zora Neale Hurston, Bruce Nugent and Langston Hughes.
Over and above all these towers James Baldwin, the novelist and essayist whose accounts of the civil rights movement are without peer, and Bayard Rustin, the most important civil rights figure after the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Rustin conceived of the 1963 March on Washington, but thanks to a vice arrest in Pasadena a decade earlier, he was forced to take a back seat during the unveiling of his masterpiece.
Coretta Scott King never forgot Rustin’s sacrifice and went on to support the gay-rights movement. Her daughter, however, the Rev. Bernice King, joined a 2004 march against same-sex marriage.
And so we now find Obama trying, as it were, to court both branches of the King family. It won’t work. And his continued relevance to gay and lesbian African Americans is over.
David Ehrenstein writes on Hollywood and politics at fablog.ehrensteinland.com.
For those of us who didn’t see the debate, who replayed right wing attacks? Was it everyone, and in equal measure?
I understand they did not all distinguish themselves on migrant’s issues, and while the GOP is worse, there are problems among the Dems. I understand Dodd threw Spitzer under the bus. Is he pulling an Obama, dumping one minority group to play dog whistle politics to bigots? What did people think or see?
Thanks.
I was at a neighborhood meeting last night and did not see the debate. However, all of the women who were sitting with me first did not want to say who they would vote for until I (the most “political”) said I did not support Clinton (unless she is the nominee.)
Then they all (at once) heaved a huge sigh of relief and said they did not support her. I guess they assumed I do support her and did not want to take me on.
And of course the idea that Richardson is looking to be her #2 is taking hold. . .
biff diggerence @ 36
The post is not about Hillary being “picked on,” and there is this post to consider wrt to Hillary’s views on torture.
I can’t get around Hillary’s polices and history, and I don’t believe she’ll go progressive once elected. She will not roll back corporate power, and she will not restore the constitution back to where it was when Bill was president.
Her negatives won’t hurt her - she’s too disciplined, and she’ll win a narrow general election. She will hurt the votes downstream, because ‘pug activists will come out in droves to vote against her, and vote a straight R ticket. That makes more and better Dems more difficult. Put Edwards or Dodd at the top of the ticket, and you’ve got a mandate with the coattails to sweep in the votes to make it stick.
Sure, ‘pugs will swiftboat any D (they’d smear Jesus if he ran as a D!), but they’ve got a head start with Hillary. I for one, have already had all the Bush/Clinton melodrama I can use. Going back to the 90’s ain’t gonna happen because due to NAFTA and outsourcing, working Americans are much worse off now than then. Time for a fresh approach, fergawdsake!
Go Edwards!
raven @ 40
I think that some of her “tough” appearance is posturing - not really who she is, but, as they all must to an extent - and, by virtue of the fact that she is a woman, perhaps a bit more - playing politics. That is, I don’t really believe she’s as hawkish as one might believe (especially if one’s opinions are a “reflection” of right wing talking points?)
-MS
time to talk about long term marketing…we need a theme and keep pounding the theme till it becomes part of every day discussion
the bush administration did this remarkably well, they pound out that government spends too much and then they are actually able to limit programs by saying they are not going to add funding for it
then they give away our assets to the wealthiest people on the planet, then claim and recovery of those assets is a tax increase
it’s a marketing concept, say it as many times as possible and people begin to beleive it
now use that principle and check out my bold;
there it is, we have to inject this presidents inaability in every discussion, make it part of every day opinion
biden missed it a little bit, instead of “the most unqualified since bush” he could have said “with the possible exception of bush, the most unqulified and incapable in history”
every single conversation, this president’s inadaquate ability needs to be brought raised
Pach - if memory serves (and I didn’t see every minute), Dodd, Edwards and Obama went after Clinton’s electability.
and yes, Dodd was the most virulent on Spitzer.
coffee’s ready, gang - hold out your cups.
The most popular Republican in the country Gov Gropper supports driver’s licenses for illegals after having campaigned against it
and yet not one bobblehead has mentioned that
i don’t know, scarecrow. hillary’s in a tough place. it’s called running for president.
right now, she’s running against other candidates for her party’s nomination — how are they supposed to campaign if they can’t bring up the single largest element obstructing their opponent’s candidacy.
i have to say: i know literally dozens of people who will not vote for her, because she’s hillary. this includes progressives who know she’s no liberal; so-called centrists who have howled over her toadyism to the bush-washington agendas of iraq/iran authorizations, and law by lobbyists; and of course rightists who will not ever vote for a clinton, period.
is it justified? probably not — the perfect should not be the enemy of the good, especially in desperate times. but this is more than a repug wet dream. there is resistance to her candidacy that will truly galvanize an anybody but hillary crowd. it’s not wrong to point that out.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 27
Yep!
the dem candidates are dimwits for swallowing the bait pumpkinhead fed them…..personally i’m not for Sen Clinton but all these other guys remind me of the repugs…scared shitless of a strong woman who can stand there and take the punch and punch back….dodd is smart but he almost sounded like one of post ad exceptions sequences that are speeded up so you don’t know what the deal really is………and i can go on and on…
watertiger @ 13
Well, since Darth Cheney seems to be Punkinhaid’s controller, the questions prol’ly DID originate with Cheney.
Selise - Do you know whether or not Cspan3 will be covering today’s SJC FISA hearing?
Last nights debate was ugly. Although Edwards, Dodd, Richardson had some good moments. I am disappointed we didn’t get more out of them. I can’t help blame Russert and Williams for setting the Mary Matalin tone. I can’t stand it when Clinton told Russert to stop framing the social security question in republican terms, Obama moves in for the kill so to speak.
And the big WTF was the UFO question thrown at Kucinich.
The other. Although I missed half the debate, I heard there was not one FISA bill question.
Still ranting from last night.
Interesting scarecrow that you DIDN’T mention Hillary’s use of ReTHUGlican political tactics to run her campaign. While I agree that we progressives shouldn’t use THUGlican talking points, Hillary and her Rovian attack dog Wolfson have been steeped in it the whole campaign, sorry I don’t buy the augment concerning her! Bill Clinton had high approvals and the progressive movement was thrown under the bus..A CLINTON WILL do it to us again.
Scarecrow @ 46
I want to thank my polling staff for their quick analysis, which confirmed that a larger share of the angry white male torture demographic will not be forthcoming as a result of my vote to confirm the nominee.
hmm… I don’t know a single democrat in my every day life that wouldn’t vote for Hillary… I realize that is not a poll, but that’s how it is… in fact, her strongest supporters in my world are middle-aged white guys…
I guess I always discount the “unelectable” biz because I just don’t see any evidence of it ’round here.
dmg says:
“i have to say: i know literally dozens of people who will not vote for her, because she’s hillary.”
Point of Scarecrow’s post is (I think):
Will not vote for her or say they will not vote for her, because “no one” will vote for her?
-MS
watertiger @ 13
Amen!
I am not a Hillary supporter, but I will hold my nose and vote for her in the general. I know she’s the front runner, but it sure did appear that boys ganged up on the one girl in the room last night.
As many have already stated no matter who the Democrats nominate they will be savaged by the right, however we should discuss the electability issue now not later.
OldCoastie @ 50
I hated it when Dodd said a drivers license is a privilege.
the electibility issue is how we ended up with Kerry…
Clinton is a mistake. It is as simple as that. Her “woman-ness” is irrelevant. She is the wrong woman at the right time (so to speak…it is time for a woman to serve but she just isn’t the right one).
The Rethugs attack her incessantly because they do know that she WILL bring out the base for their side. That is a fact. Any other candidate and their base may be indifferent or scatter all over the ballot map. Hillary is a lense that focuses their base’s laser to a tight focus. Also, if she won, she would be the lessor of all “evils” from the GOP perspective: she is GOP-lite, pro-corporation over people, pro-business at the expense of workers. The fiscal conservatives of the GOP can happily live with Hillary.
katherine Graham Cracker @ 33
I’m suggesting we all start facing up to the fact that we’re still being gamed by the Rovians. I’m suggesting that we’re about to be railroaded into the Republican’s permanent majority end game. I’m suggesting that the Democrats have bet all on winning the White House in 2008 even though that goal is not actually coincident with fixing what BushCo has broken. I’m suggesting that the Democrats are about to make a rather crude devils bargain and we’re all ignoring the fine print in favor of the bold slogans.
I’m suggesting that the only real way to beat BushCo is to drive them out of office and into jail where they belong, and anything short of
that is foolishness.
When Nixon left office, we thought we had won, I’m suggesting that we’re about to have another one of those moments.
GRUMPYOLDVET @ 54
I agree with what you say, except that I don’t think she punched back. She explained her position and I don’t recall her making any accusations or belittling any other candidate.
OldCoastie @ 60
no, there aren’t too many democrats that are gonna vote for any republican so hilary has a chance if shes the candidate, but the republicans WILL turn out more then if someone else is the candidate
no democrat voting against her isn’t really good enough either, I think the same percentage that wouldn’t vote against her would be the number that wouldn’t vote against kerry
yet there kerry was, loosing
yes, I know he actually won but the same machines are gonna be in place with the same anti voting strategy
democrats have a lot of ground to make up if they are able to control the machines and the polling areas
this time those machines aren’t gonna take any chances either, they’re not gonna try to “just squeak over the top”, they are gonna be very aggresively undermined to flip the election and I really think we need to get on that as soon as possible
Selise,
I haven’t seen a link to Edwards speech, but after the debate, I read the whole thing, having only seen parts of it, off the email from his campaign.
I don’t agree with every one of his policy points, but I think he’s basically a genuine person with great integrity and could be the compass we are going to need to start to clean up the mess.
Michael in Park Slope @ 48
Well, it’s exactly that kind of posturing that got us in Vietnam thanks to the Dems need to prove they didn’t “lose” China.
“I’m suggesting we all start facing up to the fact that we’re still being gamed by the Rovians. I’m suggesting that we’re about to be railroaded into the Republican’s permanent majority end game. I’m suggesting that the Democrats have bet all on winning the White House in 2008 even though that goal is not actually coincident with fixing what BushCo has broken. I’m suggesting that the Democrats are about to make a rather crude devils bargain and we’re all ignoring the fine print in favor of the bold slogans.
I’m suggesting that the only real way to beat BushCo is to drive them out of office and into jail where they belong, and anything short of
that is foolishness.
When Nixon left office, we thought we had won, I’m suggesting that we’re about to have another one of those moments”
and your point is….I don’t see what you are suggesting as an alternative
mui @ 63
Uh…it is factually correct. DRIVING is a privilege, not a right. Look into it. Thus, a driver’s license is also a privilege, NOT a right.
You may not like the feel or sound of what Dodd said, but it is objectively and factually correct.
Kucinich suggested yesterday afternoon that Bush might be mentally ill.
So, Cheney made sure the UFO question got put to Dennis.
I am a Progressive as are most of my friends. However, I have a large number of acquaintances who cover the political spectrum from Right to Left and there is one thing we all agree on (though for different reasons); we will not be voting for HRC either in the primaries or likely, the election proper.
Her “negatives”, as you so politically PC put it, are substantial. She carries the odor moderate right wing stink though tries to cover it in moderate, middle of the road witch hazel.
I think the standard thinking Dems who are certain of her success are in for a rude awakening should she get the nomination.
Michael in Park Slope @ 61
i’m not going to give you names and addresses, but these are folks — registered democrats, by and large — who haven’t voted for either of her senate races. so there’s a track record.
old coastie raised a point about her strongest support being middle-aged white guys: i concur. i run into a lot more hostility to hillary among women i know than men.
and finally, i’m with diogenes — if she’s the dem nominee, she’ll prolly still win, but may have a dampening effect on congressional races. and whether she does or not, you know how the repugs will endlessly replay the clinton wars of the 90s.
edwards is the candidate i’d want to see. that he’s unlikely to make it doesn’t change the fact that he is speaking most clearly on the subjects that need addressing.
Scarecrow, I agree that the other Dems went on the huber attack , which is fair enough, but they looked small in the way they went about it. Hillary did a great job in parrying, and will still be in the lead after last night. That liscense issue will come up again, but there’s no other remedy out there right now. She , at least knew the specifics and didn’t commit to any plan. So now we can’t even listen to plans as Democrats? Sounds like a Rethug idea for America.
Uh…it is factually correct. DRIVING is a privilege, not a right. Look into it. Thus, a driver’s license is also a privilege, NOT a right.
You may not like the feel or sound of what Dodd said, but it is objectively and factually correct.
so what it doesn’t take a way from the fact that he is taking the wrong position on an issue
all the loads of crap about down ticket concerns and her negatives are gooper talking points. In fact, The Ghouls negatives are higher now than hers. More people have said they would never vote for Romney then about Clinton, Keep repeating gooper talking points.
twolf1 @ 56
c-span is not covering the fisa hearing today (even for later broadcast) - at least that was what i was told. however, the sjc should be streaming the hearing live from their website (i just confirmed this with the sjc). i will attempt to record an audio for those who can’t watch the video.
also, this afternoon there are two potentially interesting hearings. the house foreign affairs committee hearing with david walker - i think this one will be on the krongard investigation and the house ways and means committee will be having a hearing on the peru “free trade” agreement.
also, yesterday i uploaded the audio from the hjc hearing with tanner on voting rights in the doj.
p.s. video stream of last night’s debate is here. if i can get it working for me i’ll rip an audio. [is cnn the only one to post their debates to archive.org this year? that sucks]
scarecrow: “while they ignore the margin of her last Senate election victory” …somehow disproves her (national) unelectability?
C’mon, NY is not a picture of how the US votes at large. Hillary is who the ‘Pukes want to face. Why? B’cuz she would be what would motivate RWers to come out and vote against her in droves; -she’s like a large wedge issue like gay-marriage, anti-choice, etc. It’s a vicious circle; the RW talking heads keep always mentioning her while ignoring the rest of the field, and then Dems refute the RW’s spin on Clinton and people talk about the criticism of those points. It just feeds itself and all the other candidates from both parties are fighting to be “2nd most talked about”.
BTW, I thought the questions last night were horrific. We spent over half the debate just on w’s next fantasy war (Iran) and his present fantasy ‘war’ (Iraq/terror). That’s practically all we talk about anymore, whether it’s the Surge or Petraeus or funding or dead soldiers/civilians or Iran, etc. It’s going just as designed: keep everybody preoccupied with ‘war’/fear/terror/security, and noone will notice (or have time/column inches in the MSM) to talk about the 1000 ongoing national disasters/outrages, any one of which, on their own, would have been enough to unseat any other modern president in history.
Raven @ 70:
I think my point was only that her image as a hawk is due more to right-wing media talking points than reality.
And, Viet-Nam was a horror, but not due to duplicity so much as stupidity, on the part of the Truman-Eisenhower-Kennedy-Johnson-Nixon administrations as well as their respective electorates.
-MS
Well, it looks like we certainly have agreement on this issue.
dmg @ 75
Well to be fair, the coming failure for the Dems to make substantial gains in Congress despite the perfect storm being brewed by the GOP, will NOT simply be because of the filthy coattails of Hillary. The Democrapic Congress is going out of its way to suppress Democrapic voter turnout and enthusiasm by continuing war funding, continuing to give in to Bush ON EVERYTHING, giving immunity to Telecoms for their illegal spying at the behest of the Bush Administration (they will do this, count on it), keeping impeachment forever off the list Democrapic tools for correcting criminal Administrations, Alito, Roberts, what’s his nuts (the horrendous judge just given a pass by the Dems), etc. Hillary is gas on the fire that the Democraps have lit themselves to burn themselves down.
Praedor Atrebates @ 72
IMHO it is a privilege only if you are looking at the question in regard to teenagers and adults who are irresponsible. The implication then is that all illegals are not adult or responsible, when in fact in New York the reasons for immigration illegal or otherwise run from everthing to asylum (non-official) or work-related. I am not going to assume that any of these folks should be treated as irresponsible or like juveniles.
Dodd has good people working for him. I am truly disappointed. He should have done his research. I am still rooting for him and Edwards.
Attacking HRC about Monica, Bill or Whitewater would be going negative in the GOP sense. Passionately pointing out where there are fundamental differences in positions and beliefs is a part of the political process that I embrace. I did not see anyone attack HRC on a personal basis. If someone refuses to be clear on a stance then the should be confronted. If a candidate has received the most money from special interest, I want to know. IMHO.
Good Morning Scarecrow!
re driving:
in the late late nite thread #242 cinnamonape suggested international driver’s licenses, sounds like good sense to me
I think what everyone should realize, this election is also a fight for the soul of the Democratic party. Do we want the Clinton-Stoyer-Emanuel ‘ites, and the spineless Pelosi-Reids or do we REALLY want a change, not just a prez change??????
Hillary is playing the woman card and she has a right to, but behind the scenes with her attack dog Wolfson leading the charge, she is pushing those tactics and she has to own up to her rhetoric. I agree Pumpkinhead was an idiot, but there has been all this meandering around Hillary and she is triangulating every friggin answer…ENOUGH….you can say what you want about the tactics used last night, but if you listen carefully every other candidate spoke from the heart, she had her bullet talking points and created a narrative around them, that is politics as usual and she should be called on it, if what she was doing is also pointed out by the THUGS well so be it!
I will hold my nose and vote for her in the general IF she is nominated, but I notice alot of progressives and certain bloggers always giving her the benefit of the doubt, because she is Bills wife……not good….make her earn it!