And now, a break from all that serious stuff. Or is it? (A break, that is.)
The Great Dumbledore Kerfuffle is still a-ragin’. Ironically enough, it’s not so much about “Oh how horrible that kindly old Dumbledore’s a sodomite! I can never enjoy the books again!” — though there is a touch of that, in one instance being expressed, ironically enough, by someone who does pics of naked male HP characters in bathtubs.
The bogus “amorality” angle aside — really, if there’s anything at all amoral about Rowling or her books, it’s her default tendency to associate good with good-looking, especially if the character’s a Gryffindor — the two biggest bones of contention I’ve seen are: “Why didn’t she make this explicitly clear in the books as opposed to a Q-and-A session?” and “I didn’t see any evidence for this in the books, so why doesn’t she just shut up? From now on, nothing she says counts as canon! Yeah, that’ll show her!“
As for the first bone: Dumbledore’s gayness should have been stated more explicitly, and it wouldn’t have needed to be X-rated, either — when Harry dips his head into the Pensieve in Goblet of Fire, perhaps he could have encountered a memory of young Albus and young Gellert sharing a first kiss. There are some hints, particularly in the last and most adult book of the series: There are the letters that flew (literally, being carried by owls) between the young men, and we even see Albus declare that he’s glad that Gellert was expelled from the school he’d been attending because otherwise he and Gellert would have never met. There’s a letter from Lily, Harry’s mother, where she states (in a classic case of HP foreshadowing) that she’s been told that Dumbledore and Grindelwald had been friends but that the very idea is laughable to her. But there could have been more: If Rowling can have Molly Weasley call Bellatrix Lestrange a bitch, she can at least have Albus and Gellert gazing tenderly into each other’s eyes.
As for the second bone, well –
In defense of Rowling, the great author Neil Gaiman said that people just don’t realize how much backstory authors create for their characters. Only a small fraction of it ends up on the printed page. So the whole “If Scholastic or Bloomsbury didn’t print it, it’s not canon even if JKR said it is” is just so much whining. (What’s really funny is how much of this whining is coming from writers of fan fiction, and what is fan fiction if not mucking about with canon?)
Meanwhile, back in the real(?) world, Rowling has not only confirmed her Carnegie Hall revelation, but revealed also that Dumbledore’s coming out had encouraged at least one real-life gay person to do the same. And that for me is reason enough for her to have spoken out now. Just think how many more people might have been encouraged to leave the closet, had she spoken out earlier by explicitly outing Dumbledore in the books. Hey, maybe even a certain ‘fag hag’ might have decided to stop bashing the people she hangs with for fun and profit.
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Bizarre!!
congrats LS
OT: Dem leadership’s support for telco immunity finally starts to make some kind of sense: http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../101037/57
do-si-do @ 2
Hee, hee…I landed here just in time…
I don’t get this, really. I thought Harry Potter was rejected by the jesans already for the witchcraft and sorcery, what’s a little implied man-on-man love compared to devilry?
LS @ 4
My comment on the previous thread was in the Waring Blender. (shakes fist mightily, vowing retribution!)
I think this was brought up on Raw Story as well….and I commented there that as the Author, Rowling owns all rights to the characters, and can do as she wishes to them.
The whole argument from the wingnuts is taking on tinges of Stephen King’s “Misery”. God only know the wingers might feel like busting kneecaps if Harry or Hermione were killed off……..
wigwam @ 3
Thanks for that. You’re right about now making sense.
This whole Dumbledore thing is a little strange. It’s almost like she made it up after the fact, but then again she made it all up before the fact too…but then again, it isn’t fact at all anyway.
puppethead @ 5
Well, hmmm. I don’t know what to say about it myself. it’s fiction!
These things go in cycles. Goopers will set a bonfire to fiction, then truth. It’s back to fiction again, I guess.
I just…can’t stop shaking my head over the whole kerfuffle. I mean *honestly*.
I mean, they’re the wingnuttia generally, but they’re *really* earning their stripes here. Has anyone informed them that this is actually, you know, *fictional*?
Maybe she made up the gay part to get back at the people accusing her of witchcraft…just to rub it in after their kids all read it…
This puts a lot of perspective on my Frank Herbert obsession.
peanutbutter @ 11
a fictional character that lives a fictional life in a fictional world
aiyy!
Here’s a copy of my post to Crooks and Liars on the subject…
Actually this is a wonderful turn of events. I wish I thought Rowling had done it deliberately, and frankly if anyone COULD have done it she could have.
What Rowling did was establish an heroic, honorable, lovable, parental figure, a figure fiersomely protective of the children in his care, a figure that parents and children can see as a role model… and after his place was firmly established, revealed that he was gay. She basically tricked a lot of people who might be uncomfortable with homosexuality into opening their hearts to someone, and discovering later that the person they love is gay.
Sure this is fiction. The first interracial kiss on television was notonly fictional, it was within the context of the program a compelled action. But this is the way cultural progress is made – tiny steps. Now there are many people around the world who have discovered that someone they love and admire is gay.
That’s not fictional, that’s real change.
Good for Rowling.
I have to say bravo to JK Rowling. The last movie was quite cathartic watching HP and friends bring down the fascism that took over Hogwarts!
If only we could do the same in two or three hours!
peanutbutter @ 11
Fictional or not, it’s better that this gay controversy happens now and not be part of the general election campaign.
LS @ 12
We may never know…but certainly one of the things that surprises me so much about their reaction is like someone else said, thought they’d already written it off as promoting witchcraft, consorting with the devil and so on and so forth. Besides, they should have already know about the books’ liberal bias: Dolores Umbridge should have established that beyond a doubt ;-)
I’ve posted on this elsewhere, with poll options. About half or more at one place said the revelation was no big deal. It didn’t make any difference one way or another how they felt about the books or the characters.
In a way it’s similar to being left handed; some people believe you’re born that way, others argue it’s a preference you can be trained out of. Some say it’s the mark of the Devil, others have no problem accepting it as another variation within the spectrum of ‘normal.’
I salute Rowling for creating a character like Dumbledore who isn’t just an extension of his sexuality. It’s part of who he is, but it isn’t the totality of his existence.
…and I’m thinking it’s a good thing I post under a nome de plum, else my English teachers from the Past would be hunting me down about now for that awful sentence rendering above…!
PLUME dammit!
*crawls under hole*
Dummydore McConnell…say bye, bye…
“McConnell tucked money for three weapons projects for BAE Systems into the defense appropriations bill, which the Senate approved Oct. 3. The Defense Department failed to include the money in its own budget request, which required McConnell to intercede, said BAE spokeswoman Susan Lenover.
BAE is based in Great Britain but has worldwide operations, including a Louisville facility that makes naval guns and employs 322. McConnell has taken at least $53,000 in campaign donations from BAE’s political action committees and employees since his 2002 re-election. United Defense Industries, which BAE purchased two years ago, pledged $500,000 to a political-science foundation the senator created, the McConnell Center at the University of Louisville.
In June, BAE confirmed that the Justice Department is investigating possible corruption in its Saudi Arabian deals. According to British media reports, BAE set up a slush fund with hundreds of millions of dollars in a Washington, D.C., bank to bribe Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan in order to win weapons contracts. Bandar, who heads the Saudi National Security Council, has denied the allegation.”
http://www.kentucky.com/454/story/214167.html
peanutbutter @ 20
since you are no longer in school you are no longer under the dominion of the rules of English Class
English is such a wonderful language because there really aren’t any rules. That’s why it isn’t Olde English anymore, or Shakespearean English. It’s alive and it’s always evolving, (we’ve come a long way from “mma”).
peanutbutter @ 21
plum, eh? better prune that sentence… :~)
Vote Dumbledore for president!
punaise @ 24
That’s plumb awful…
do-si-do @ 26
first person to raise the specter of “fruits” on this thread gets two demerits…
*ducking*
do-si-do @ 26
It’s the pits…
Hi!
What time and channel is the debate?
indeed, very informative,although some of it seems questionable. none the less good stuff you got there
Ah, finally a thread where it’s on topic to post a link to this!
(”Indexed” is wonderful in general, btw.)
twolf1 @ 28
just quince dents.
24, 26, 28
Y’all seem to have found the kernel of the matter.
Thats just peachy.
Hey punaise. I offered an eintroduction between you & a friend who’s the best punner I know. He declined on the grounds that engagements between punners are far too bloody.
Heh. A friend of mine was visiting the night after the news came out, and her sister, who is heavily into fanfic and stuff, called to say “Hah! Told you so!”
So I guess there was some evidence there if you were looking for it. *g*
Don’t these people have garages to clean out or something?
Cripes, find something to do with your time instead fabricating scandals 24/7.
eCAHNomics – prolly a good call!
I’ll just be hanging out over in the passive-aggressive word corner…
First of all. Aren’t these responses supposed to be about Dumbledore? Anyway, I applaud Rowling for sticking it to the right wing.
Hi folks,
Just a friendly reminder that changing screen names or sockpuppeting here at FDL is frowned upon and may be grounds for banning. Thanks!
Elliott @ 23
Evolution of language is one thing, and as a linguist I delight in the elasticity of language.
However devolution is quite another matter… :-O
punaise @ 24
Well at least it’s about fruits.
punaise @ 27
Oops.
Bustednuckles @ 37
Who? What? My garage is in need of some work.
The Lurking Mod @ 40
Lotsa new names on this thread…. hmm.
Every time a mod posts this kind reminder, I have to hunt back through the thread to see what’s up. Of course, it might just be a friendly reminder, entirely unrelated to the thread and its commenters.
ot – via tpmmuckraker: Breaking: Mukasey Refuses to Call Waterboarding Torture
but, later in the post, this is what stood out for me:
my comment:
Loo Hoo. @ 29
9PM EDT on MSNBC
Loo Hoo. @ 43
I cleaned my gargage back in May. I do it once every 10 years whether it needs it or not.
two demerits for peanutbutter. couldn’t jelly vittle own? :~)
wigwam @ 3
This surveillance program was “allegedly” infiltrated and implemented before 9/11
dakine01 @ 47
Thank you!
selise @ 45
Jeez, isn’t “finding language they can live with” exactly what the problem is? Exchanging another word for “torture”…shoot…waterboarding is what it is, no matter what you try to call it.
I’ve heard the name Hillary about 5,000 times today…Every 5 words….
LS @ 53
maybe the newscasters are getting a buck every time they get “Hillary” on air
LS @ 52
probably indelicate, but in Late Nite the other night there was talk of Halloween festivities that somehow came to include apple-boarding.
LS @ 52
yeah, but beyond that – why is the sjc negotiating with the white house? why aren’t they negotiating with mukasey… when it’s mukasey’s testimony that’s under negotiation?
Elliott @ 54
i have two stupid questions…
why is senator clinton – hillary?
why is senator obama – obama?
Just got back into the house and am reading this afternoon’s threads, so this is O/T here. It’s about HRC coming out against Mukasey: is it the ‘Overton Window’ that gets mentioned sometimes, how taking a position out on the edge can drag the entire discourse to a new, preceived center of the resulting range of opinion?
Dodd appears to have staked out the tent flap for the Dem candidates farther out on the Progressive side than they never expected, and now Obama and HRC (at least) seem to be responding exactly as the Overton Window Effect would predict.
selise @ 57
perhaps because there’s another prominent clinton: bill.
Actually, the fact that Albus Dumbledore was gay or had at least a widestance, was pretty clear in the last book.
It was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the chapter about Grindlewald. And then there was Albus’s brother and the tension between the two that was never quite resolved. I wasn’t quite sure if he was gay or bi-sexual but there wasn’t any doubt that he was in love with another man.
What was Rowling supposed to do, spell it out in large font letters? Describe the physical contact? Manoman, if Harry Potter hadn’t been banned before, that would have done it alright.
selise @ 57
I thought obama was osama?
twolf1 @ 61
Quite. It’s a nice twofer — diminish them both.
selise @ 57
I dunno. SHE started it. I guess it makes her more approachable.
Schumer, Barney Frank, Bernanke, Paulson and Pelosi are still focused on saving big banks, hedge funds and financial houses, while throwing several million mortgage holders under the bus.
Level 3 accounting (worthless paper) at Wall Street banks is well above bank capital: for instance, 2 x capital at Goldman Sachs. These banks are broke. Broke! Broke!!
Giving these New York Financial People more money is killing our economy.
OT: Has this been covered today?
Edwards Statement Opposing Mukasey Nomination
portia.vz @ 63
I tend to go with Senator Clinton myself. I think I do so as it seems many folks use “Hillary” as an attempt to diminish her and her achievements
TeddySanFran @ 65
My bold
OT, but time for a laugh.
This from the Guardian’s new American online edition (I knew there’d be a good reason to have a U.S. edition of the Guardian)
LS @ 52
that’s Snarlin’ Arlen for you.
OT, but I kept meaning to mention — the wife of our good pal Tom Davis (R-VA-11) has put out campaign flyers with the old dirty trick of trying to confuse minority voters about the date of Election Day.
The question of Laura Bush in public office has been floated before. W thinks it’s entirely acceptable, and based on the Hillary model, why not?
I think one signifier will be whether Kay-Bee stays in office to run for governor, or steps down to run. If she is elected governor and then has the power to appoint her own replacement in the Senate, I would expect it to be Laura, without question.
Redshift @ 70
Quite the piece of work, isn’t he?
He’d fit quite well in Slytherin, wouldn’t he?
Laura Bush is not running for office not now not ever –there is not enough valium in the world
Redshift @ 70
Go Chap!
Did any of you see Aravosis’ new line of t-shirts?
Quite the bulldog, he.
RevDeb @ 69
Further along, Time points out Cheney’s continuing efforts…
“Some Democrats on the committee have tried to help Mukasey get out of the box he’s in. Harold Kim, a former Specter staffer who works in the White House Counsel’s office, has been negotiating with Judiciary Committee Democrats, trying to find language they can live with. But attempts to compromise with Congress have met resistance from Cheney’s office, and when it comes to interrogation techniques, the Vice President and his chief of staff, David Addington, have notoriously pushed for presidential authority to go unchecked by the legislative branch.”
http://www.time.com/time/natio…..12,00.html
Can we finally subpoena Addington’s sorry ass…?
TeddySanFran @ 70
Laura hates politics.
portia.vz @ 63
we differentiate between George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush using 41 and 43. If their first names weren’t the same, would we refer to one or both of them by their first names? I think so.
Elliott @ 78
Probably. Herbert and Chimpy.
Redshift @ 70
hey, send one of those flyers to the House panel from today’s hearings and a newsclipping or two. Could be fun.
TeddySanFran @ 65
The msm ditched Edwards 5 months ago. Did you hear or read this anywhere in the mainstream ?
eCAHNomics @ 77
Besides that we’ve had quite enough of the bubbleheaded, plastic politician for a lifetime.
There is no uniform style for addressing the candidates –they call rudi America’s mayor or Mayor Giuliani and yet former democratic office holders are all ex this or that
and Tweety calls Senator Clinton, Mrs. Clinton as does Tucker Carlson.
PLovering @ 64
linky? or at last an explanation?
mind you, i’m not disagreeing… just wondering why you think that. thx!
TeddySanFran @ 65
Reuters just picked it up an hour or so ago, and cnn political ticker did also (whatever that is). I used Teh Google…
I hope Edwards is still in the running! According to the FDL straw poll he still is. Hmph. And Stephen Colbert is worried about “native son” vs. “favorite son”, ha!
peanutbutter @ 21
Wow! OT, but this just reminded me, is everybody ready to watch Valerie Plame on the Daily Show tonight?
katherine Graham Cracker @ 83
my question was more about how we address the candidates.
guess i’m not entirely comfortable with addressing senator clinton as “hillary” if senator obama is going to be “obama”
maybe i’m carrying some workplace baggage (i was first woman engineer in a all male engineering group straight out of college)…
not meant to give anyone grief… and not asking for a change (i’ll do my own thing, you do yours – that’s cool)… was just wondering why. that is all.
damn. my typing is really going down hill. and my lazyness in not using the “preview” button the last few weeks is really showing. sorry folks… hope you can decipher.
selise @ 84
http://www.prudentbear.com/ind…..;Itemid=61
selise @ 86
I have no doubt there’s gendered stuff going on.
selise @ 87
Hi Selise, I call everyone by their last name (political public figures I mean) but Hilary. It’s a shortcut and everyone knows who I mean. I grew up with guys, and it’s a guy thing to do acc. to my upbringing…if someone called you by your last name only, it means acceptance in a guy’s world. But seeing how Bill already has that staked out, we gotta go with Hilary or Little Clinton…or some other stupid nickname. Hilary works.
But…I do know what you mean. I had to run it through the fem filter to see how I came out on it. Here’s my feeble answer FWIW. ;)
Hillary has 2-Ls for future reference.
Hey Jane’s upstairs…incase no one told ya. pass it on.
Hmmm… Where’s the MSM? Here’s a bipartisan bill, introduced by ‘Freedom Fries’ Jones, no less…
Rep. Jones introduces bill to limit president’s war powers
WASHINGTON — Rep. Walter B. Jones of North Carolina has introduced a bill to prevent the use of U.S. military force in war without the consent of Congress.
The bipartisan legislation would amend the United States War Powers Resolution of 1973, which was passed in response to the extended Vietnam War.
Jones submitted the bill Sept. 25 and announced it Thursday at a press conference with three of five co-sponsors. One of them, Rep. Bill Delahunt of Massachusetts, a Democrat, is a member of the House subcommittee on foreign affairs which will first hear the bill. Also present were Rep. Ron Paul of Texas and Rep. Wayne Gilchrest of Maryland, both Republicans. The other co-sponsors are Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii and and Rep. Robert Brady of Pennsylvania, both Democrats.
The bill would prevent U.S. involvement in another long war without congressional approval. But Jones said it was not drafted in response to last week’s “World War III” comment by President George Bush or to new numbers released this week by the Congressional Budget Office putting the cost of the Iraq War through 2008 at $610 billion and predicting a cost through 2017 of as much as $2.4 trillion.
http://www.newbernsj.com/news/…..jones.html
One of my congress critters is a co-sponsor… 8-)
PLovering @ 89
thanks!
As anyone who has read the books knows, Dumbledore’s the least of it. Hogwarts is gayer than Anderson Cooper’s sock drawer!
All the staff are Bloomsbury wannabes. Hagriff is a Leather Bottom. Hermione has her heart set on joining “Dykes on Bikes.” And poor sensitive Ron Weasley is pining away for that viscious cockteaser Harry.
What do you people need? Flash Cards?
Of course what the creator says is canon, how could it not be? If Rowling makes good on her threat to write a Harry Potter encyclopedia to address these back story issues, will that make people happy?
Personally it is my opinion that if you didn’t know Ron and Hermione were going to hook up by the end of the first book, you are emotionally a bit numb. Similarly, if you didn’t know about Dumbledore and Grindlewald by the ninth chapter of Deathly Hallows, you might want to see a doctor. The problem is you are probably already dead.
ok, i already blogwhored this, but for once i’m so on topic i might as well be writing for fdl:
top ten signs that dumbledore was gay
CTuttle @ 94
I thought Senator Webb all ready did this in March of 2007. I really believe the Republicans can trump the Democrats this way.
justadood @ 7
Exactly.
Heh!
David Ehrenstein @ 96
Actually, Remus and Sirius were the big leather couple, but Remus wanted a family and Sirius didn’t so Remus went off with Tonks, though he was pretty much pants at the whole fatherhood thing (as Harry took great pains to remind him). :-)
Hermione and Ginny did, however, pair off, though Harry at first was too busy mourning Hedwig to notice that Ron wasn’t just a friend any more.
Trust me, David, if you can dream it up, fan fictioneers have already written it. Fifteen thousand times over. (Including Snape/Hagrid and Hagrid/Giant Squid pairings.) Oh, and did I mention that most of these stories are being written by teenage girls?
Am I missing something here? Like the part where Dumbledore’s feelings were returned by Grimblewaldo, or whomever? I know it’s not PC, but even today gayboys fall for straightboys. Why would that not have been even more likely way back in the day when Dumbledore was young? I grew up in the “gay lib” days of the 70’s, and for teenagers the only “out” options for love were one or two extremely nelly, bitter (and who could blame them?) drama queens who seemed intent on outing (and not in a gay positive way) anyone they suspected might be in the closet.
These silly, anachronistic criticisms by gay writers about a children’s book writen by a het woman are almost embarrassing.
I’m reminded of the PeeWee Herman imbroglio. What freaked out parents back then was that their kids adored a performer who, it turned out, was gay.
I also might add that I can only remember media reports on that situation having never actually met a parent who gave a shit, and I have yet to meet one who cares about Dumbledor’s “orientation.”
FWIW My most beautiful daughter, a huge HP fan, thinks it is meaningless for Rowling to claim this now.
do-si-do @ 16
Read further on into the seventh book, just like in real life, it comes back…..
Don’t I know it, Phoenix Woman! Harry Potter is the new “Slash” fiction sensation.
(For those of you just joining us, “Slash” is homoerotic fiction written by and for women. It began with stories about the Stark Trek characters — as in Kirk/Spock, as the shorthand form goes. It has since gone on to encompass all sorts of phenom — from Lord of the Rings to the pop band Franz Ferdinand.)
John Dean Philbin believes the checks and balances are “operating”. Frightening.
Knew I had heard of Philbin somewhere, not sure it had been from reading John Dean’s informative pieces. If this is where Philbin stands one really has to worry about Addington.
why is senator clinton – hillary?
why is senator obama – obama?
Well, she did run as “Hillary!” in 2000, so it’s hard to see it as a big injustice now. There’s plenty of gendered stuff going on, but this should probably be considered pretty far down the list