Some Marvin Gaye for your Sunday enjoyment. Love this song…really wanted to link up this YouTube, but the embed was disabled. You can still click thru to enjoy, though.
NOTE: I will be on the Sam Seder Show this afternoon at 5 pm ET/2 pm PT. You can listen live here.
The NYTimes Magazine has an intriguing article about the schisms that may be occurring within the evangelical community. It seems that the “marketing potential” of supporting the Bush Administration is way down in terms of synergistic fundraising…at least based on where the Dobson Focus on the Family folks are…erm…focusing themselves these days. The switch from hate-filled invective directed at “libruls” to the actual message of acting on the humanism and peace contained in Christ’s teachings would certainly be an improvement, but I’m filing this in the “believe it when I’ve seen it for more than a couple of months” category.
In any case, I thought this was a fascinating bit of insight from a reporter who has been covering the Christian right for quite a while:
…Meanwhile, a younger generation of evangelical pastors — including the widely emulated preachers Rick Warren and Bill Hybels — are pushing the movement and its theology in new directions. There are many related ways to characterize the split: a push to better this world as well as save eternal souls; a focus on the spiritual growth that follows conversion rather than the yes-or-no moment of salvation; a renewed attention to Jesus’ teachings about social justice as well as about personal or sexual morality. However conceived, though, the result is a new interest in public policies that address problems of peace, health and poverty — problems, unlike abortion and same-sex marriage, where left and right compete to present the best answers.
The backlash on the right against Bush and the war has emboldened some previously circumspect evangelical leaders to criticize the leadership of the Christian conservative political movement. “The quickness to arms, the quickness to invade, I think that caused a kind of desertion of what has been known as the Christian right,” Hybels, whose Willow Creek Association now includes 12,000 churches, told me over the summer. “People who might be called progressive evangelicals or centrist evangelicals are one stirring away from a real awakening.”
The generational and theological shifts in the evangelical world are turning the next election into a credibility test for the conservative Christian establishment. The current Republican front-runner in national polls, Rudolph W. Giuliani, could hardly be less like their kind of guy: twice divorced, thrice married, estranged from his children and church and a supporter of legalized abortion and gay rights. Alarmed at the continued strength of his candidacy, Dobson and a group of about 50 evangelical Christians leaders agreed last month to back a third party if Giuliani becomes the Republican nominee. But polls show that Giuliani is the most popular candidate among white evangelical voters. He has the support, so far, of a plurality if not a majority of conservative Christians. If Giuliani captures the nomination despite the threat of an evangelical revolt, it will be a long time before Republican strategists pay attention to the demands of conservative Christian leaders again. And if the Democrats capitalize on the current demoralization to capture a larger share of evangelical votes, the credibility damage could be just as severe.
“There was a time when evangelical churches were becoming largely and almost exclusively the Republican Party at prayer,” said Marvin Olasky, the editor of the evangelical magazine World and an informal adviser to George W. Bush when he was governor. “To some extent — we have to see how much — the Republicans have blown it. That opportunity to lock up that constituency has vanished. The ball now really is in the Democrats’ court.”
I’ve said previously that I am very uncomfortable with politicization of religion. My grandfather was a Methodist minister (now retired), and I grew up being taught that faith is something that you put to work for the benefit of the less fortunate, not to aggrandize a particular political party’s agenda. Mixing the dirty world of politics with religion doesn’t mean that politics gets any cleaner — it’s simply designed to give an outer sheen of public relations respectability while the corruption keeps right on chugging out of the public eye. (See, e.g., DeLay, Tom, as an enormous example of what not to do. See also Ralph Reed. And before anyone asks, I’m certainly not saying that religion doesn’t have its share of corruption issues all on its own.)
But then again, some of our better forward-thinking achievements have come from the marriage of action on social justice and policy initiatives. Dr. King’s work on civil rights and the intersection with Lyndon Johnson’s push on legislation doing just that come to mind, as one example of many. And the latest fight for SCHIP ought to be added into the discussion as well, giving a helping hand to the least of these, our bretheren. Moving that forward — instead of the backward steps we’ve been taking of late — would be wonderful, wouldn’t it?
Way back in the Old Testament, Moses denounced the worship of idols and golden calves and other earthly idolotry as sins — worshipping at the altar of fattened, corrupted golden elephants is no different. And it is well past time that religious folks in America got that wake-up call…a change is gonna come, it just may not come as quickly as we might like. I’m curious to know what you all think about all of this — the intersection of religion and politics, politicization of religious practice or not, separation of church and state all factor into the mix — and about the article in the NYTimes magazine. Thoughts?



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yoo hoo
I’m sure you all knew that Frank Rich touched on this today as well.Rich
hey
many are just authoritarian cultists using religion as a crutch.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2…..ining.html
it’s a psychology, with just a dash of theology, at least at the top.
“worshipping at the alter of fattened, corrupted golden elephants is no different.”
altar
Marcus at 5 — Thanks. It’s fixed…
If Giuliani captures the nomination despite the threat of an evangelical revolt, it will be a long time before Republican strategists pay attention to the demands of conservative Christian leaders again.
This is true only if he wins the general election as well. If Giuliani wins the nomination, but loses the White House, the religious right will be able to say “See? You ignore us and you’ll never win again.”
The best outcome for Dobson and the rest will be to beat Giuliani in the primaries, but failing that, to stay home in sufficient numbers that he loses the general election.
Bread is the hunger advocacy group of evangelical christians and they do not get enough attention — it would spoil the narrative about the evangelicals.
http://hungerforjustice.net/post/religious-right/
The Republican evangelicals such as Pat Robertson see the church as another opportunity to sell diet aids while others more on the left see the church as a way to be of service to their communities.
Wow, great post, Christy, as usual, as was your last one. This is a pet issue of mine, the intersection of religion and politics, largely because it’s been such a force in the last several elections. I think this election will be unlike any other we’ve had in this country, and the governance that follows the political show will bring even more new issues. Certainly I think it’s now become a wide open election, even with the whacked out Rep field, which is sad, because I think Dems really did have a lock on it for a while. The way they’ve handled themselves since the 2006 election has surely cured the “sure thing” most of us anticipated late last year. This subset of religious voters will be one to watch in the coming months. I have no idea what to expect at this point…
I think tristero has the correct perspective on the christianists:
link
The christianists have become addicted to and dependent on the Federal dollars they are getting. If that money is shut off, the bloated mega-church infra-structure will implode. The talk about third parties is bullshit.
Christy,
I’d written for many mornings on the buying of Bush’s base with untold billions through this White House office.
There has even been talk of making the Director of Faith Based Initiatives (currently Jay Hein) into a Cabinet position.
Billions of dollars, without oversight, has been given to “churches” which have sprung up around the country. The leaders of these churches have started drug treatment programs, youth boot camps, marriage counseling, abstinence teaching and more.
The basis for these billions being sent to these programs is President Bush’s assertions that faith based programming has and will do a better job at treating social problems than those who have been educated and certified to work with those in need.
I am dedicated to working to separate the government from engaging in paying people to provide social services (unregulated, unaccounted for and in documented cases hurtful) by religious organizations. These faith based billions have had untold effects.
I am still fearful for a little girl I worked with for two years who was very clear that she wanted to be a boy. When her loving grandmother died (her caretaker), she was sent to a program in Texas to work on this. The program is one which presumes to cure homosexuality and, I guess, this.
I have a great deal to say on this but will stop now.
I know a lot of ‘new’ evangelicals. I think they have become involved in these mega-fundie churches because they are conservative by nature and are seeking refuge from our quickly changing world. They are refugees from our secular world.
The idea that these conservative souls might embrace the progressive political agenda seems a bit farfetched to me.
On a positive note, at least from my perspective, they aren’t showing much energy in terms of the Iowa caucus up to this point.
I would hazard a guess that Jesus Christ would not belong to any of the conservative evangelical churches.
I thought this from the article was particularly intriguing, because it mirrors the spilt between understandings that I’ve heard from evangelicals that I know — from both these camps:
“…For the conservative Christian leadership, what is most worrisome about the evangelical disappointment with President Bush is that it coincides with a widening philosophical rift. Ever since they broke with the mainline Protestant churches nearly 100 years ago, the hallmark of evangelicals theology has been a vision of modern society as a sinking ship, sliding toward depravity and sin. For evangelicals, the altar call was the only life raft — a chance to accept Jesus Christ, rebirth and salvation. Falwell, Dobson and their generation saw their political activism as essentially defensive, fighting to keep traditional moral codes in place so their children could have a chance at the raft.
But many younger evangelicals — and some old-timers — take a less fatalistic view. For them, the born-again experience of accepting Jesus is just the beginning. What follows is a long-term process of “spiritual formation” that involves applying his teachings in the here and now. They do not see society as a moribund vessel. They talk more about a biblical imperative to fix up the ship by contributing to the betterment of their communities and the world. They support traditional charities but also public policies that address health care, race, poverty and the environment….”
Steve-AR….left a response downstairs about your FDL archive question.
Gooper presidential candidates tryin to outdo one another on how they would treat suspected “islamo-terrorists”….
Rudy thinks that waterboarding has been given a bad name by the liberal press-all of em are in favor of torture- and the winner will be “I’d bite their balls off with my bare teeth–” but that line may be saved for South Carolina…
Turns out that 11 states now allow ya ta blow someone away if they’re on your property without permission- just blow their fuckin heads off- one Dallas guy has blown two away in the last month..
Good thing we got ourselves a fuckin Christian nation here.
Christy @ 14
The long and short of it – The old fogeys want to control society through the organs of State and the younger one want to live a good life and teach by example.
RBG @ 15
Thanks for the help..That will be my late night reading.
Big oops…interesting post, Christy. Thanks for all the links. :)
As the “greatest generation” fades away- we’ll have people whose experience with war is limited to Korea, the Nam, and Iraq.
That generation sees an 0 for 3 army who keeps gettin sent into hell with zero chance for victory.
btw, hope everyone enjoys the Marvin Gaye video. Love that song, and I hadn’t listened to it in a while…
Lucky americans live in neighborhoods populated by armed wingnuts- shootin anything that moves.
Boston 1775:
The rapid expansion of the fundie infrastructure is amazing. Large churches and associated buildings in areas that couldn’t possibly support them financially. That will also be their down fall if the money is shut off. That is a big if.
Bush’s faith based initiatives offered preachers a chance to get filthy rich to test the camel/needle hypothesis.
Now we have millionaire preachers drivin around in BMWs and urging tax cuts for salvation.
Nice work clusterfuck.
The evangelical wingers have a secret weakness that the liberals have not exploited. This weakness is an “inerrant” and “holy” text that condemns them.
–
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash ye, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
AZ Matt @ 17
I’ve sometimes wondered whether disillusioned Boomers are behind the evangelical revival, in the following sense. In the 1960s & 1970s, Boomers pushed the envelope. They (which includes me) had a sense of pioneering, or creating something new and better in society. Well it didn’t turn out that way. So did disappointed Boomers turn back toward traditional, authoritarian models because they couldn’t handle the new freedoms?
Wonder if Falwell fit through the eye of that needle?
Weetle laura is P.O.’d the mean, nasty Dem-agogies are pickin’ on weetle georgie over S-CHIP:
http://thehill.com/leading-the…..10-28.html
AZ Matt @ 13
Seems I remember Him having a few things to say about people of their ilk. ;-)
rwcole @ 27
He was out of Reverend Pat’s diet shakes, for sure.
Reverand Pat plans to show up at the pearly gates skinny- and with plenty of KY jelly in case he needs to slime his way into paradise.
newtonusr @ 29
Cuz they are sooo special they use a bigger needle than the rest of us. They whine when Jesus holds them accountable.
rwcole @ 30
Somehow, I think he’s already slimed his way out of it. Wonder if that stuff works as a fire-retardent?
O]ur polling data show that much of this is sailing right over the heads of the average Republican voter out there across the land. Most startlingly – at least to me – the latest USA Today/Gallup poll indicates that 74% of Republicans say they are unsure where Rudy Giuliani stands on the issue of legal same sex unions. That’s little changed from January when we first asked this question.
Republicans are a little more knowledgeable about the fact that Giuliani is pro-choice on abortion. Still, more than half of the Republicans we recently interviewed said that they were unsure about where he stands on this issue — which has received a great deal of intense pundit and commentator scrutiny [link added].
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
Great!
If you like the Marvelous One, check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KC7uhMY9s
rwcole @ 33
Comes primary time, his opponents will be all about that issue. A real slime-fest is coming and the Dems, if they’re smart, should just stand back and watch.
That last from Pollster.com- best polling site on the web.
OT..Are the Thugs making Josh Marshall paranoid?
TPM
“voted fer Bush and go to a gooper church”
two time loser
Christy Hardin Smith @ 14
As a progressive I can see myself in league with the ‘new wave’ of evangelicals; but….
Only if they agree to stop using the government to ’spread the word of Jesus…’
No compromise on this issue.
None.
Religion and state need to be separate for either to do what society requires of them.
If the ‘new wave’ agrees with this fine. If not….
They are the enemy. No matter how ‘reasonable’ they sound.
I have always been puzzled as to why the evangelicals would sell themselves to Bush when he’s obviously only pretending to be one of them. Perhaps it is the worship of idols.
When the MSM talk about “evangelicals”, they’re talking about one particular cultural thing, in which Jesus, Davy Crockett and Chuck Norris have all essentially become the same guy (A new portrait of Jesus). The association of media-touted “evangelicals” with the culture and mores of the frontier of the western US is as strong as that of Saudi Islam with the culture and mores of the Bedouins.
I agree with old gold – people who like Butt-Kickin’ Jesus are never going to switch to Wimpy Jesus. But at the same time, Republicans have been in power long enough to be part of the “Big Bad World Lost to Sin” that evangelicals must always reject. There’s a tension here.
Badwater @ 40
Probably because, unlike Reagan and 41, he’s given them some of what they want.
eCAHNomics @ 26
I think the boomers are largely responsible for the evangelical revival, but I don’t think it’s disillusioned hippies, or empty me-generationers searching for soul. I think it’s the boomers in between, the ones, like my Mom, who were listening to country music out here in the Midwest while the hippy parties carried on on the coasts, and those people didn’t really appreciate having so many changes happen over the course of their young lives. Sadly, what they fail to understand, of course, is that it is their very existence which has forced such changes.
Jesus kicked ass- he threw Halliburton out of the Temple
Some of the evangelicals are people who led a youth of drugs,sex, and rock and roll- and now want to keep their kids from following suit.
rwcole @ 33
A study of FOX news coverage with regard to Guiliani’s position(s) on abortion would be quite interesting, I would think. Might go well with that story going on over at TMP regarding Ailes and Guiliani.
Some people are evangelicas because of the CONVENIENCE of the thing- drive through dunkin- no questions asked- free pass to heaven- and rock an roll on sunday.
rwcole @ 44
Gooper speech writer:
“Who is this Jesus you speak of? Never heard of him.”
“How many a you out there are ready ta get dunked for the Lord today?”
newtonusr @ 48
Actually, Rick Warren said in an interview that he wondered how he had been able to be a preacher for so long without noticing all that stuff about feeding the hungry etc. in the Bible. Not that he has done much since noticing.
newtonusr @ 42
For most of Bush’s time in office, Republics had total power. Yet, abortion was not banned. Bush and the Republics should be loudly scorned by evo leaders for this. Yet, they are not.
Both Bush and the evos are frauds scamming their supporters.
Badwater @ 51
He gave them Schiavo, and stem cell research, and faith-based big bucks. More than Poppy and RayGun.
It’s interesting that the article you quote speaks of Jesus’ teachings on sexual morality. Going by the words of Christ as quoted in the Gospels, Jesus rather determinedly advocated a non-judgmental approach to the subject. When confronted with an adultress, he spoke about casting the first stone. When asked, about a woman who had successively married brothers, whose wife will she be in heaven?, Jesus said, to paraphrase, “don’t let stuff like that take your eye off the ball.” The reputed words of Jesus can actually tempt one toward religion. It’s the words of his followers that scare many away.
Don’t get too self-congratulatory. All they need is one more person on the Supreme Court. They’re mighty close and the evos know it.
As my son once said, before he became a wingnut, “What does Christianity have to do with Christ anyway?”
Best seller- Jesus on abortion—zero pages long
Rivaled by “Jesus on gay lifestyle” also zero pages long.
You have ta wonder how Jesus managed to miss the biggest spiritual issues in the Universe- wasn’t payin attention?
Repeating myself from yesterday:
masaccio @ 26
Bruce asked in a later comment if I had any data to support this, and all I have is my own observations. I’ve lived in Nashville for 32 years. In the first few, I met an occasional person who would make racist comments, but it has been at least 10 years since that happened. As I said, I attribute that to the effect of decent cooperative religious leadership here, which was forged in the civil rights struggle, and encouraged by our political leadership at the time.
I might add that I’m not giving anything away about my location, what I said about 12 churches is true for almost everyone who lives in Davidson County
rwcole @ 58
Email down that day.
New Jane upstairs.
rwcole
Homosexuality & abortion are OT proscriptions, and Christians would claim to inherit that tradition.
A book waiting for someone to write is to pick out all the parts of the OT & NT (e.g., slavery) that we now revile & asking why Christians don’t feel just as passionately about those.
fundies preach mainly from the old testament with all its wars and retributions….its why they are warmongers and money grubbers
Cahn
I’ve never been able to find a word in either testament about abortion.
In fact the old testament refuses to give full legal status to new borns- they have to survive a certain number of days.
masacchio — The 12 churches designation works here, too. Pretty much anywhere…
Badwater @ 51
I heartily agree.
Long ago most of the so called Christian sects turned their backs on the teachings of Jesus in favor of their own dogma. Christ’s religion is very simple and personal, and religions have turned it into a three ring circus. I can’t think of a single group that focuses on what Christ taught as their core belief system.
It is my hope that church goers will continue to awaken to this fact. Many are. Many hear their leaders preach things that are plainly against what Christ told us to do, and they are very upset over this. They see that they are in a conflict between obeying the Words of Christ or obeying their church leaders, who cherry pick scriptures to suit their own causes. And the further out there the leaders get, the more true Christians leave the church.
Simply put, if you believe that the things Christ taught are true, then you will not kill, hate, steal, or refuse to help those less fortunate than you. “This you do to the least of these, you do unto Me”. and that about sums it up.
It does not surprise me that some sort of “schism” would develop but I’m not sure it’s right to call something a “schism” which was not really unified in the first place. The Republican party with their right-wing religious evangelist allies have done a good job in my opinion of branding in the minds of the public, including many of the faithful, that to be a Christian you must be a Republican. I see comments on this blog and even this thread which imply as much. The SCLM has done a lot to propagate this image of the “if you are a Christian you must be a Republican” kind of stereotype.
What this has done, I think, and what some pastors like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels have seen, is that this branding is having a negative overall effect on the underlying mission of the church which is to make Christ and the good news known. As many have observed on this thread and in the blogosphere, Jesus message was, is, very far from the message of the Republican Party and the message of the evangelical right. There are not a few on the so-called Christian right, who advocate a gospel of wealth, basically the exact opposite of the Gospels.
Yet the stereotype has now begun to stuck to the point where the exodus from institutional religion is now reaching a critical stage. Membership in Christian churchs overall is declining. Younger people are not coming to church in droves. TBOGG had an interesting post a week or two ago commenting on the fact that regular attendance at church has reached historical low points of 20% (according to Christianity Today). For anyone, like me, who believes that their mission is to know Christ and to make Christ known, this is a disturbing trend. Bill Hybels and Rick Warren are trying to reverse that trend by getting Christians to share their faith with others and show people how faith has changed them. I imagine they realize not many people are going to be persuaded to become Christians if they think they will be changed into right-wing zombies.
My point here is that not all Christians are right wing or Republican and there is no “schism” as far as we are concerned. I think of what Hybels and Warren are doing is getting the church back on message and back on track away from the wild goose chase of the flirtation with right-wing Republican politics.
Part of this is letting people know about the positive things Christians are doing in the world. e.g. ever heard of UMCOR, the United Methodist Committee on Relief? http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umcor/
BTW, UMCOR has come under attack by a Scaife-funded right-wing outfit called Institute for Democracy and Religion, for, get this, forming a partnership with Muslim Aid, a Muslim relief organization, to help with relief efforts in Muslim countries. Institute for Religion and Democracy is trying to subvert the Methodist and other mainline Protestant churches for not being sufficiently right-wing Republican. The attack on UMCOR was on the fact that UMCOR was insufficiently religious in its website as compared to the Muslim organization. They falsely accused UMCOR of supporting Muslim Aid to provide goats for Muslim korbani sacrifices. This attack is an attempt to undermine the good the church is doing in the world. Contrary to Ann Coulter’s message, the church is not about invading their countries, killing their leaders and converting them all to Christianity. Which is why organizations like UMCOR are being attacked.
a lot of the so called christians take the name of the Lord thy God in vain every time they open their mouths. maybe some really believe in God but today more are like Elmer Gantry. i often think God must look down and cry at what man does with free will.
Just catching up on FDL today…
I think this is a really important thread, and am surprised that no one has mentioned Jim Wallis and Sojourners, as well as the Network for Spiritual Progressives. Wallis wrote the book, “God’s Politics: How the Right got it Wrong, and the Left doesn’t get it” (2005). The Network of Spiritual Progressives, now a project of the Jewish Tikkun community, was founded in July 2006, and Wallis was one of the main speakers. Afterwards, a remarkable joint interview of Wallis and Lerner was conducted.
Bob in HI
Trying to catch up on FDL topics, and agree with others that this is a very important thread.
I thought the NYT article was excellent; I could really ‘hear’ the voices in many of those interview subjects, all of whom made enlightening comments.
I’ve been noting small, anecdotal shifts for the past two-plus years, mostly since Cindy Sheehan started to speak out; she was promptly treated like yesterday’s trash. Within two weeks of Ms Sheehan calling Bush to task, Hurricane Katrina hit (and that single event shifted consciousness and exposed Bush forevermore as Pathetically Not Up To The Job Of Preznit). Then one more piece of appalling news after another, and Bush insiders beginning to speak about the cynicism with which Bu$hCheney used the evangelicals.
I sense the NYT article has captured some of that soul-searching, and that’s where the transformational shifts among some evangelicals are coming. I’ve seen the same topics raised by people that I know:
1. ‘participatory theology’ shown by service to the needs of the local community,
2. ‘Throw out the Pharisees,’ along with reduced focus on the ‘celebrity’ aspect of politicized religion (as a dangerous distraction from the meaning of the Gospels),
3. Much more emphasis on, and concern around, the environment — since Katrina.
At least one person surprised me in the past year by commenting that she felt she’d been unfair to Al Gore. She feels that ‘it takes a spiritual man’ to avoid bitterness and accomplish his work on global warming; she described Bush as ‘a Pharisee’ and blames the media for not reporting more clearly so that his faults would have been more obvious. That comment greatly surprised me.