(Please welcome Mark Penn, author of Microtrends: The Small Forces Behind Tomorrow's Big Changes, and Tom Schaller, author of Whistling Past Dixie in the comments -- JH)
I must confess that I’m a sucker for books like Mark Penn’s and E. Kinney Zalesne’s Microtrends. Why? Because I love numbers, specifically demographic numbers. In that sense, I really enjoyed this book. For those who find too many stats annoying, the book’s fun, clipped, breezy and example-filled writing is very accessible. Some microtrending groups struck me as obvious or familiar (“Christian Zionists” are those John Hagee-inspired nutjobs), while others were quite surprising (“Long attention spanners”…who knew?!). Just so we have the primary definition out of the way, Penn defines a microtrend as an “intense identity group, that is growing, which has needs and wants unmet by the current crop of companies, marketers, policymakers.”
Given Mr. Penn’s political background, I had expected Microtrends to contain more findings or advice related to political targeting and lessons for partisan politics and party-building. Certain chapters, of course, suggest important political-electoral implications, and there are scattered references throughout other chapters of partisan effects or patterns. (Did you know, for example, that internet daters are disproportionately Democratic, or that about three-quarters of women who work in the fields of law enforcement, construction and armed services consider themselves moderate or conservative?) More generally, the book lacks a structural synthesis or narrative to hold together these microtrends, though maybe that’s precisely the point. Indeed, this may be the only book ever described by its author as both an “impressionist painting” and a “periodic table”; the 75 chapters are very short—micro-chaptered, you might say, so the book’s execution fits its theme.
General reactions aside, my own microtrend is 40-year-old, first generation college-educated, liberal, white social science professors and political junkies who yearn to know more from Mr. Penn about how the microtrending of America will affect our politics, especially partisan politics. And so I’ll kickoff today’s salon with four questions, and then let FDL’s voracious, smart readers have at him. Here goes:
1. I believe in the power of demography as a predictor of some human behaviors, including certain political behaviors like voting, but demography is not destiny. (How else to explain, among countless other possible examples, that the secretary of state--a single black woman with a PhD--is Republican?) To what degree and in what ways do you think demography remains a strong predictor of political attitudes, identity and voting?
2. If America is splintering into sub-, sub-sub- and sub-sub-subtrends/groups, will it become increasingly more difficult for politicians to target and message to voters (and donors)? And if so, how will candidates and consultants like you solve this problem of ever-increasing demographic complexity?
3. “Soccer moms,” “Nascar dads”—some subgroup inevitably becomes the darling of the dance each presidential cycle. Any predictions on which niche group the media will obsesses over in 2008? (Please provide a quick definition of the group.)
4. This last, two-part question is admittedly self-serving. I presume that, as Clinton campaign guru, you won’t dare admit that the campaign will run an almost exclusively non-southern strategy (though your colleague James Carville told as much earlier this year), so let me ask it this way: If Hillary is the Democratic nominee, which southern states besides Florida do you honestly believe she can win, and which microtrends might help her there? And, however she performs in the South, do you think she can amass 270 non-southern electoral votes (as her husband did twice), and again, which microgroups will help her capture some of the non-southern states that Gore and/or Kerry didn’t win?
Thanks for joining us at Firedoglake’s book salon, Mr. Penn, and welcome aboard.
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Welcome Mark, welcome Tom. And thanks so much for being here today.
Jane Hamsher @ 1
Happy to be here, thanks for inviting me, Jane. And hello to Mark.
Maybe Mark can take a whack at one or more of my four questions to get the convo rolling?
Hello Jane and Tom. Appreciate the review.
Great to be here.
Welcome to both of you.
I’m hoping the most influential group in the coming election will be called “liberals” but I’ll be perfectly happy if they call us “progressives”.
Demography has played a huge part in predicting votes; the key part of the book is devoted to saying that the old demographics may give way to new choices. That we are moving from class-based to choice based in religion, in marriage, in products and eventually in politics.
Hi,
I’m curious as to why HRC is appearing to be so hawkish; especially in today’s climate where the majority of voters in the United States want peace not war and they want emphasis on diplomacy not threats…who is she trying to appeal to? The Homelandians??
I’d love for the candidates to address me as a mother to teens — less than three years away from draft age if we continue having endless wars. Which candidate will assure me that the kids won’t have to fight? And that my nephew’s end-date with the army will be honored?
Bill Clinton says it’s dangerous to look beyond the current election. Your candidate still has viable primary opponents for the presidential nomination, Mr Penn; do you think she should take her husband’s advice? Many commentators see her running a general election campaign already.
Looking forward to reading your book!
Mark Penn @ 5
Well, Mark, let me follow-up this reply by asking you how much marketing information is predictive of political behaviors. Increasingly, consumer behaviors are being collected and analyzed to figure out and categorize voters. Tell us more about that data interface, plz.
As to question 2 — The book suggests that people’s lifestyles are splintering but their values are becoming more cohesive and so that politics may actually provide more glue than it has in the past. Unless we grow in tolerance people cannot be different and we are in fact becoming far more tolerant that we used to be. So the fact that we are splintering lifestyle-wise does not mean our politics will.
Welcome, Mark. Good to see you again, Tom.
I understand the microtargeting concept, and the need to comprehend this sort of marketing potential in terms of mobilizing voters on an election to election basis. Truly, the need for at least understanding some of this more precisely need only be exemplified by one name: Karl Rove, who was all about the microtargeting.
But, at the same time, the Democrats and people from all sides of the aisles, are yearning for real leadership, for the issues that grab them in the gut and hit home at the kitchen table and in their hearts. While microtargeting may help to get some of that understanding rolling, it can’t add the stories, the narratives and the passion that we’ve been lacking the last few years.
How do we balance that? We cannot simply be numbers, nor can we ignore them — but we lose when we fail to understand the power of a simple message that hits people in their gut and heart. Why is it so hard for us to marry those two concepts? As a trial lawyer, I used to do that every day in court. Political messaging should be no different, it seems to me.
Hi Mark,
Would you speak about those of us who are trending toward hatred of privatization of our armed forces and of the hospitals which care for our veterans?
Welcome Mark and Tom. Mark, I hope your book and your work will help Democrats become more targeted and more effective in their races.
My question: Which of the microtrends that you identify should a typical Democratic candidate for Congress try to incorporate into a run for ‘08, versus longer term trends that will affect future elections?
We just had a very promising Congressional candidate from Michigan, State Sen. Mark Schauer, here for our BlueAmerica series, wish we could have had him stick around to have this specific discussion with you.
Thank you.
Mark:
Unfortunately I’m traveling and have been unable to get into the book in any depth.
A bit of a methodological question: what threshold criteria did you employ in the book to identify a valid cluster, that could qualify as a microtrend? With what degrees of confidence can we be sure that we are not observing random patterns and projecting imagination onto them?
Welcome Mr. Penn, Mr. Schaller.
Mr. Penn - naive as I may be, doesn’t the campaign you envision for Mrs. Clinton force her to go with the “palatable” over the real, the truth?
Polls are lovely things, but Mrs. Clinton is, well, shall we say less than transparent about some very important issues of our time. She has generated some real anger over her refusal to speak about foreign policy, for instance.
And I’m particularly sick of hearing Hillary supporters say, “But Rudy is the alternative…”
to: teddySan Fran
This is good advice and I think she is following it. She is focused on the primary and rolled out universal healthcare and keeps outlining her policies and campaigning hard in Iowa and NH.
She is running a primary campaign that has also been doing well in her rising above the republicans and showing her electibility, but she is out there with new ideas and in town halls.
Welcome Tom and Mark.
Mark, let’s get the nasty stuff out of the way quickly.
I find it difficult reconcile the thrust of your book with what I keep hearing about your firm doing a lot of anti-union activities. How do you reconcile this with the strong presence of the Unions as a large part of the base of the Democratic Party? Do you look on the Unions and the blogosphere as so totally belonging to the Democratic Party that it allows you to do a “Sister Souljah” and make Mrs Clinton look more moderate to the folks who will never vote for her anyway?
Mark Penn @ 10
That’s interesting, actually. It means there are more and more subgroups to manage and understand…BUT, that once understanding is achieved it is theoretically easier to reach and persuade them, yes?
Hi Tom. Good to meet you, Mark. Thanks Jane, Christy for this opportunity.
I have not read your book yet. I also hope this is on topic.
But I’m very interested in your prediction that IF Hillary Clinton is the nominee she could peal off as much as 24% of Republican women in the election. I’ve often pictured Republican suburban women voting secretly for her without telling their husband, especially if a hardliner, anti choice Republican candidate is their nominee. Voting for the first woman would be hard for many to resist.
Thoughts?
Mark Penn @ 16
Mark, with all due respect, but you’ve fallen in with a group of wordsmiths who understand nuances. Senator Clinton rolled out a plan for Universal Coverage, keeping the insurance companies firmly in control, siphoning their profits off the top of the healthcare system. to most folks here, I believe that Universal Healthcare means getting the insurance companies out of the decision making process and not requiring most folks to go through them to attain coverage.
Mr. Penn,
Thanks for visiting with us.
Have your business colleagues at your firm utilized your findings in the field of microtrends in their public relations work for Blackwater?
Mark I was happy to see that your book you address the topic of single women, 20 million of whom didn’t vote in the last Presidential election (and who vote overwhelmingly Democratic when they do vote). It is very important that we try to start enfranchising them.
However, as a single woman, I have to wonder if this is the best way to do it. In your discussion of the fact that gay men outnumber gay women 2 to 1, you say:
As a single woman, I find the implication that I am somehow a “loser” to be pretty patronizing. It assumes that I have not made a conscious choice, and that if only I were more attractive, smart, successful, etc. etc. I’d have me a husband.
A lot of single women claim they do not enter the arena of politics because it does not speak to them and their issues. As someone who works closely with a female candidate who is quite probably the most successful woman in American political history, is this really the way we ought to be speaking to them?
To: Christy
People always suggest these are either or elements. The truth is a good campaign and candidate will lay out a set of values, big goals and plans, and will also do some additional targeting of emerging key voter groups.
I think Hillary has been explaining her vision of a new progressivism (see NH speech), been outlining her plans like healthcare and been appealing to broad groups of working and middle class voters. This book is not really a political book — and her campaign has been a big campaign about some big goals.
The thing is, being a woman who has been in law enforcement and in construction, and being a woman with many other women friends in law enfrcement;
if you talk to them about ideas like choice, like women working outside the home, like civil liberties–they are actually very progressive.
They seem to mispercieve what the terms conservative and moderate actually mean. Why do you think there is this kind of mis- self identification? How to do you make allowances for it when using micro targettting info?
How would you try to differentiate a trend that cuts across diverse demographic groups, such as the growing number of people who want to see Constitutional democracy restored, whether they are conservative, moderate, or progressive?
My 83 year old mother says we “need a Party of the Reasonable.” She’s a lifelong Republican, I’m a lifelong Democrat, but our views overlap here. Are we part of an evolving microtrend? I’m actually hoping we are part of an evolving macrotrend.
Mr Penn, Mr. Schaller:
Perhaps you can explain if the microtrending is the reason for all the triagulation and why that has replaced speaking the truth.
Do you think that it comes from trying to address each subgroup instead of speaking to Americans as a whole?
Mark — Perhaps people lay them out as either/or concepts because for the past few years, campaign folks have been treating them as such. Or at least it certainly has seemed that way from the outside looking in just at the way messaging and issue pushes have been done.
Completely agree with you that BOTH have to be considered and woven together. Good to hear you say it.
To: Taylor
I gave the prediction that if Hillary is the nominee the big surprise on election day would be the defection of up to a quarter of Republican women. Our own polling shows she has gobe from 6% with them in June to 13% today with 11% saying undecided (13 11=24). And her unfav with them has dropped from 87 to 75. And there is still a lot of time to go.
The LA Times poll that just came out showed her at 18% with Rep women and 9% undecided. I think this prediction is showing a lot of underlying support even as early as today.
Mark Penn @ 23
MARK: MIGHT YOU HAVE A LINK HANDY TO A COPY OF THE TEXT OF THIS SPEECH?
This is a fascinating subject. What confuses me is the current apparent diversity between the polling data and what I hear around me and read on sites like DKos and FDL. The polls would have us believe that Hillary is all but carved in stone as the candidate, but that’s not what I hear or read. What’s happening? Who/where are they polling? Are the polling results we keep hearing about push polls?
Welcome to Mr. Penn, and thanks to Tom for the helpful intro.
The connection between polling/trends analysis and policy formation is interesting. We’re never quite sure whether the politicians who come forward as perceived leaders are those who innately reflect the emerging trends of our times, or whether the politicians reshape their positions in the belief they’re capturing the trends. How do we know which is which, and how do you see your expertise playing a role?
Is there a microtrend of down-ticket Democratic candidates who are scared to have Hillary Clinton atop their local ballot in 2008?
To: Pach
Thanks — Microtrends are half creativity and half science — it is the combination of a way of seeing things and crystalizing a new group based on developing numbers from statistical sources and polls.
So Democrats might never have shifted from their focus only on downscale manufacturing non college men had what became known as “soccer moms” not crystalized some lifestyle and voting changes that had been ignored. So many trends will never get crystalized and take on early meaning and some will be identified but never really catch on.
Tom’s too modest to ask such a question, so I’ll ask it for him. As a demographer do you think the trends are switching towards the liberal side of the equation? Are we moving towards a new democratic majority for a generation and will that majority be liberal, or is that too simplistic?
And why is it that people don’t vote? And in terms of values, how do those people lean?
Ian Welsh @ 34
PLEASE — an answer to this, if you have one!
Mark Penn @ 5
Isn’t choice based to a large extent on class.
As in some folks can only afford to shop at Wal-Mart?
To: Ian
That is a good question. Parties change adapt to changes of the public — Lincoln was after all a Republican.
But the point of the book is that we are changing in many contradictory ways right now but that the Democrats are making real progress on the cultural wars with more people being tolerant of new lifestyles and so the Republican are losing the issues they fought so many elections on.
Marion in Savannah @ 30
hope you’ll answer marion’s question and i’d like to ask a related question:
hope you can reassure me on this.
Meant to offer a link @19 above, so here it is, with the part to which I was referring below:
Mark:
Would still love an answer to my selfish question #4 before you go today–about microtrends in south v. non-south, and where Hillary could win in the general election next year inside or outside the South that Gore/Kerry did not.
Cheers, tom
There are many people in this world who cannot even afford to shop at Walmart. Many who use second-hand shops and charity stores or who do without.
To: Scarecrow
Good politicians have a core set of principles and Hillary Clinton has been fighting for things like universal healthcare, human rights and the welfare of children long before i ever worked with her.
I think good pollsters have to inform candidates of how the voters are changing and keep them in touch with what the voters are thinking.
Mark, as the mom of an 8 year old, I’ve noticed something about the kids near his age: Team things - sports, activities, even dating - are no longer de rigeur. In fact, the kids I see regularly are opting for individual sports over team sports (karate, archery (!), swimming). Of course the team sports thing is still big, but is this a trend you’ve noticed? What might it portend? A whole generation of kids thinking for themselves?
Mr. Penn,
It has been reported that your firm has done polling to test the effectiveness of the the ‘$400 haircut’ smear against John Edwards. If this is correct, do you believe that it is in the long-term interests of your client, Hillary Clinton, to promote right wing frames that undermine her opponents?
Mommybrain @ 43
TexTeen is 13 and about half his friends are involved in team sports. He’s more interested in individual.
Cassie has always been 100% social butterfly and enjoys team sports.
Mommybrain at 43 — Or a whole generation of “me, me me” instead of “we”? I wonder about that as well, even with a child as young as mine, watching siblings of other kids in her preschool class and such. Team sports are still very big in WV, but the emphasis has shifted from team efforts to individual achievement.
Mark Penn @ 42
Mr Penn, what has your polling told your candidate about warmaking on Iran? Does she feel her vote on Kyl-Lieberman can be defended by a four-page mailer to Iowa voters, while the chatterati characterize it as giving Bush war authority?
Thanks.
LS @ 6
I’d like to second this question. I’m no pollster, but it seems to me that a substantial majority (say, 60%) of the American public is crying out to hear an approach to defending this country that explicitly rejects the Bush mindset, instead of clinging to its philosophy but pledging to be a bit more reasonable in execution.
John Edwards’s speech on Sept. 7th was an excellent example of such an approach. I mean, not to suggest that Hillary should outright steal Edwards’ themes… but heck, Obama’s been doing it regularly, why not get in on the act? :)
Thanks for coming here to answer these questions.
Mark Penn @ 33
Okay, well, that’s, frankly, a disappointing response.
When I did my doctoral research, my committee called that sort of thing “bullshit” and made sure I avoided it. On the other hand, if you load your work with caveats to the effect that you say, “Hey, these are just hypotheses and guesses; I could be making this up,” then I suppose that’s okay. What is your message, and how do you present your arguments and analysis in the book?
Is it fair to say, in view of all this, that your work represents, by your description above, at least half projection, dressed up with numbers? Are we really talking about a work of marketing, not statistical analysis?
imo people dont vote b/c of unfulfilled promises….once elected the voters are forgotten til its election time the exception being those high-powered voters with clout…
To Egregious
First, a lot of the microtrends cut across old lines. Internet marrieds (people getting married after meeting on the internet) is new group breaking down old social barriers.
On the political side, we are seeing the Democrats grow and the Republicans shrink as Bush’s egregious policies have been driving voters away from the Republican party and putting that party in danger of splintering.
What’s the trend for single moms?
To: Mommybrain
The book picks up on exactly that trend. In the chapter “Archery Moms” we talk about the growth of new, more individualistic sports exactly as you describle.
Mark Penn @ 33
Wow. Unlike Pach, I’m not a social scientist. But I do have a credential or two relating to language. And is this ever a loaded statement.
First, as a Michigander, I wonder whether shifting Democrats’ focus away from “downscale manufacturing non college men” was 1) really such a good idea, and 2) necessarily exclusive to a focus on soccer moms. It seems to me that some values–like on a solid local economy–might appeal to both.
And if “microtrends” are such an art, then to what degree are they simply an excuse to shift focus as it’s convenient? I haven’t read the book, but I did hear you on NPR, and I gotta say I was underwhelmed by the evidence in support of the microtrends discussed on the show.
LHP — Do you think it’s a misunderstanding of the terms? Or a deliberate, repetitive miscasting of them — a la Frank Luntz and his Orwellian doublespeak definitions being wormed into the public consciousness for the last 10 to 15 years. I find if I talk individual issues with women that I know, they will almost always agree with my perspective, but if I say the word “feminist,” for example, they recoil.
Mark Penn @ 51
Do you see a danger that the Democratic party might also splinter in 2012 if our President hasn’t withdrawn all our troops from Irak? I worry that the incumbent might face a very strong peace challenge, especially if universal health care ends up administered by insurance companies.
Not to look beyond the next election or anything. *g*
Article in Time that argues that whichever political party figures out how to tap into libertarians will profit extensively.
Any comments?
TeddySanFran @ 47
I’d like to second this question. Especially given that her description of her vote on the Iraq AUMF was that she felt she was giving the go-ahead to more diplomacy rather than authorizing war and her explanation on Kyl-Lierberman sounds almost identical. Which makes me think she didn’t learn her lessons too well from the first vote when she is giving the same responses after seeing the first vote blow up.
Mark Penn @ 42
Okay, but isn’t the real question about how the link between these two responses is changing as your role increases? For example: Does your role then extend to say, “my trend/polling analysis says that you can get health care for kids, but not health care for parents, unless it’s tied to preserving the private insurance industry, so tailor your message that way” (just to take a hypothetical)
I’m not asking about Sen. Clinton, per se, unless you want to use that as an example. It’s the trend in using this kind of expertise/data that I’m interested in.
this election will see if this microtrend proves the repugs are losing voters…
With all due respect to folks who want to talk about Iraq, Mr. Penn is here to discuss the book. If your comments relate to its contents, feel free to ask whatever question you like.
Mark Penn @ 53
We have a world-class archery (what the heck are they called? Studios? Dojos?) training facility in my city - the last several Olympic Gold Medal Archers have trained there, and Gina Davis, too - so I know several kids who practice archery. But truly, archery in other towns?
Do you have an opinion as to what’s behind it? (not archery, individual sports)
BTW, the book is searchable here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/04465.....HZPS9RFQ3&
no archery here. lots of dojos.
tom schaller @ 40
I would like to know this as well. Thanks.
“Penn defines a microtrend as an “intense identity group, that is growing, which has needs and wants unmet by the current crop of companies, marketers, policymakers.””
Would seem many of us here today as the “netroots,” or the “rabid lambs” (as one of the Davids calls us…Brooks/Broder…no diff), are an obvious microtrend. Our needs or wants are certainly not being met by DLC wing of the Democratic Party, which Hillary represents. In fact, that’s basically why we’re all here.
Considering Hillary polls near the bottom of every poll in these parts, and most everyone here shares similar stories about never hearing anyone, anywhere expressing support for Hillary or seeing her bumper stickers, and seeing and hearing a lot of support for her current competition, can you explain to us this surge she’s apparently having in “the polls.”
Are we that out of touch with the American mainstream? Is there something else happening here?
I’m in the voter sub-group of people whose lives have been dramatically shaped by catastrophic injury . . . which I’m pretty sure is linked in many ways to the group of people who are looking at how to deal with their aging parents. I think that Claire McKaskill’s victory last year is evidence that a lot of people who might not identify with the Democratic party in other ways feel the shadow of illness/disability/aging — and will respond to clear messages aimed at them.
To: Pach and Empty Wheel
Hope you read the book. I see a lot of observations of focus groups that people say is “reality.” I rarely use them. I look at numbers and believe you have read those together with creativity to see things in new ways. The problem the Democrats had in 96 was that the number of downscale manufacturing men was declining and so their message just to them was not working. By also talking to new career-oriented women concerned about their kids they expanded the party and brought in new groups. And the statistics to support these trends were significant and available long before this was identified in that campaign.
I believe we are inadequately analyzing the present and the changes that are taking place which is what this book is about. We are 15 years behind the new reality of a changing country.
But it is not a political book. One day I may write Microtrends in Politics but this was instead meant to show how these small changes are a part of our changing culture.
It seems to me that a danger exists that a politician’s focus on microtrends, such as the rise of ‘internet marrieds’ and the like could distract from macrotrends like the massive and growing opposition to the war and demand for a speedy exit. It further seems that Clinton’s campaign is at great risk of falling prey to this danger. Mr. Penn, what are your thoughts on this critique?
Mark Penn @ 68
Mark
Thanks for the answer.
But I guess that’s my point. Those “downscale manufacturing men” didn’t just disappear. They became “even more downscale manufacturing men” and “even more downscale service working men and women.” As a woman, I’m glad I’m on the radar (though I’m not a mom). But I do worry this kind of creative demographics is a way to justify leaving those dying categories–who are in reality, people–behind.
Mark,
Of course, creativity is necessary when doing research, so as to form hypotheses, which then can be tested.
I’d like to repeat my question, since I didn’t really catch your answer: do you present your assertions in the book as untested hypotheses or as conclusions?
Being creative about the numbers is what led to Enron’s downfall. Not only does it lead to disastrous outcomes, it’s also, well, dishonest and immoral. I’m sure that’s not the model you’re trying to emulate here, by taking a marketing approach to telling a series of stories that relies on fudging the numbers, but I’d like to hear you comment more on the difference, and the issues in play.
Thanks again for coming to answer questions. I have the book on my desk and hope soon to give it all the attention it deserves.
Mark Penn @ 68
that’s interesting, can you expand a bit? my intuition is the message didn’t work because everyone remembered nafta as wasn’t buying it. but would love to have some data/evidence to replace my intuition with.
To: Jane and Tom
I think her campaign is growing in strength and in numbers across the board. No one since Jimmy Carter has gotten above 50% and she is polling in some new polls above that.
She has an 80% fav in Arkansas and could win there. And I think can turn Florida around — she is in the margin of error there already (ahead in some) and the women and latino voters there could take her over the top.
She is ahead in Virginia alredy, and has a strong presence in the Northern Va. media market.
And I think that her growth in women voters could have impact everywhere inclduing the South.
But i think there are promising states in the West, where there is a lot of new population growth and if McCain is not the nominee (as it appears) many of those states are opeining up to her.
What about poor women? Single moms? Moms of kids nearing draftable age?
Mark Penn @ 73
With enormous respect to Pres. Carter, we all remember how well that worked out…
Surely, Mark, you can’t say that you haven’t noticed that there are more and more who are deeply angry, furious even, because our country’s Constitution has been trashed, regular people are listened to and spied on, and our CIA is torturing people.
It’s a trend.
Mark Penn @ 73
thanks for this, mark. basically, carville and i both agree that the southern opportunities are, in order, FL, AR and VA. (AR drops for a non-hillary nominees.) we just disagree on how likely these states are to flip, and how much resources to invest there. but i think AR is pretty solid for her b/c of her connections there. FL is always in play. But i don’t see VA going D yet.
as for beating carter, I already have predicted (in a recent Sun column) that hillary could be the first D since LBJ to get 51% . we’ll see
thanks for being here today, mark.
Many of us here were vehemently against an Iraq Invasion the moment the war drums sounded. Polling at the time would’ve said we were a small portion of society, and in politician terms we could be ignored. Now 70% finally agree with us, and many politicians have followed our lead.
Another example: Many of us lived and breathed the organic food lifestyle, and did things like bike commute for decades before it became the marketing gimmick it is today. We were often chastised for being a fringe element of society, and often made fun of. Turns out we were onto something.
A question for you: Should true leaders follow polls and act on things when they become “acceptable,” or do true leaders do things to actually change the polls?
Mr. Penn, This is a bit off of the book topic but I am very curious if your polling prior to the last election supported Rahm Emmanuels approach that Democratic candidates across the country avoiding anti war discussions/positions?
To: Aye
I have to explain that this is not a political book or a playbook for any campaign, but a look at America and how it is changing in many areas from religion to dating. One day I may write a political book, but definitely not in the middle of a campaign.
Hillary is talking about how we bring troops from Iraq (and a detailed plan), universal healthcare, new retirement accounts, new ways to pay for college, and soon will unveil her full energy policy. It is a big campaign about big goals. That is the core of the campaign.
Thanks. All. I have to head off. This has been great. Appreciate it.
will microtrending lead to more splintering and hostility among groups - i think so but i’m not really certain just my gut feeling
thanks mark, tom and jane. very interesting discussion.
selise @ 82
I second that. Thank you.
Mark Penn @ 80
Thanks very much for being here today. We very much appreciate you taking the time to stop by.
selise @ 82
Yes. Numbers usually scare the bejeezus out of me, but I think I’ll have to read this book.
Mark, is Hillary prepared to tell us which of the powers that Bush has claimed in the plan for the unitary executive that she is planning to relinquish?
Also, do you know if the democratic party in general is planning some kind an education program for members of the public with regard to Habeas Corpus and Constitutional foul-ups that the administration and republican party have trashed?
Thank you for being here today.
Loo Hoo. @ 86
Great idea! If this isn’t in the works it certainly should be. I’d toss a few bucks towards the production of “PSAs.”
Thank you Mr Penn.
Thank you for being at FDL Mr Penn
When I first got interested in politics, we thought that the most important factor was the two-step process of passing information. Everyone knew people who followed politics, and they paid attention to what those people thought when it was time to vote. I wonder if this microtrend stuff works because that two-step process has basically disappeared. So many voters don’t follow politics, and are easily influenced by ads and other marketing tools, none of which are really policy based, and none of which really talk about what will happen after the election.
And why is it that people don’t vote? And in terms of values, how do those people lean?
As someone who has spent her political life in voter registration and GOTV work, let me take swing at that one.
Most people experience powerlessness everyday of their life. They experience powerlessness as commuters, as workers, in dealing with their insurance companies, mortgage lenders or landlords, and so forth. This is true of middle class, but even more true of poor people. It is very difficult to explain to someone who experiences powerlessness on a daily basis that they can go to the polls, push some buttons, and that is going to make a difference in their daily life. It is hard for people to believe in what they don’t experience.
This is why local committees make all the difference, only personal contact with local Democratic activists can break through that sense of powerlessness and why Dean’s 50 state strategy is so critical, because it is based on local organization.
Sorry to veer off topic, but Mr. Penn, it would be great if you could work that sort of question into your work with non-voters.
Good point, Alice.
This was an interesting conversation.
Somewhere I once heard Dick Morris described as a Buddha-like figure during the Bill Clinton presidency.
When Clinton’s team got desperate or in dire straits they would go to rub Morris’ belly and get answers, like some sort of dark oracle.
Penn seems similar in that he is really operating on his own dubious instincts but backs such instincts up with ‘research’. It appears that Penn is so loyal and self assured in his theories and predictions that politicians tend to latch on to him just as Bill Clinton and company latched on to Morris.
As a Virginian, I am confident that whoever we nominate, up to an including Gavel or Kucinich, will carry Virginia next year. The Virginia GOP is in the process of imploding, that will become obvious in two weeks when Virginians go to the polls to elect the state legislature and local government.
Selise, if you’re still here, I tried to open the door for your question, but obviously to no avail. Oh well…
Alice @ 95
Best of luck, especially in defeating Tom Davis’ wife!
Marion in Savannah @ 75
Well, how did that work out? Lemme see:
- The last substantive agreement between Israel and two neighboring Arab states.
- A substantial commitment to developing alternative energy, significant to the point that one of Reagan’s first acts was to remove the solar panels from the White House
- The freezing of Iranian assets after the capture of the American embassy in Iran, a crisis that ended only when Reagan bribed the Iranians with surface to air missiles
- The appointment of a Federal Reserve chairman (Volcker) generally believed to have taken the hard steps to stop the stagflation of the 1970s.
- Amnesty for draft resisters residing in Canada, a necessary step to healing the split in America caused by the Vietnam War
- A president who failed to be re-elected in part because he was betrayed by his own religious denomination, a media beginning to pick on trivia like the “killer rabbit” stories, and a racist backlash in his home state.
By far a better record than any president since, including Bill Clinton, who was continually playing catch-up with the Republicans’ new politics of outrage.
Had Carter been re-elected, the world and America would have been a more peaceful and prosperous place.
Hi Marion! I indulged in one of your blueberry pancakes this morning.
OT: Good Goddess!!! This is not good, they have this huge crowd dispersal weapon:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...../17850/039
Not so nice to discover that issues of poverty and single moms are as invisible here as they seem to be with the politicians.
Back for late night.
I saw that, LS. Sends shutters down the spine, huh?
Marion in Savannah @ 96
noted. very nice door, and i used it. thank you. perhaps we should wait for another thread?
Alice @ 92
Alice,
Thank you for this comment. I experience the same thing in my area when I try to get people to register to vote, and never could quite put it into words, so I really appreciate what you’ve written.
TexBetsy @ 101
would love to discuss this, will look for you at late nite.
Well, it’s awfully disappointing to see how few questions were really answered. Even when Mark addressed his comments to some specific input, his responses seem generally unresponsive.
He’s not unintelligent, so the results here allow for the interpretation that he lacks sufficient respect for questioners to deal with them as equals. I’ve never met Mark, but this sadly seems suggestive.
Well, John Philbin of FEMA has resigned.
Via Think Progress.
Marion in Savannah @ 96
and I liked the way you put it, too.
selise @ 105
Same here.
Pachacutec @ 106 -
pach - and i spent several hours this morning angsting that my question was too provocative. after reading your questions, no more worries - thanks!
TarHeelDem @98, I certainly meant no disrespect for Pres. Carter, and I voted for him and would have again. But what was perceived as his indecision on what to about the Iran hostage situation and his “let’s put on a sweater” TV talk helped lead to 12 years of St. Ronnie and Bush I. So his 50% led nowhere in the long run, except having to clean up after St. Ronnie et al.
selise - kitty gone wild
newtonusr @ 112
more, more, we want more! and pictures too!
selise @ 103
Or perhaps an author who is more willing to address the tough questions. (Although I will admit it did seem like a bunch of us were piling on!)
aye @ 94
Good observation. I’ve long suspected that many of the political “gurus” that make up our punditry are just great self-promoters. Often, their “success” is often a byproduct of the times, and the fact that they don’t try to do anything groundbreaking or revolutionary. The promote the status quo.
I tried to bring this up somewhat in a question above. Karl Rove didn’t invent any new style of politics. He just came of age when things that were set in motion years before him were coming to fruition. It took them 30 years of changing laws and Conglomerating the media to control the message in America in which Rove could operate and seem successful.
Penn is not rocking any of the powerful’s boats. He’s worked for years for the tobacco industry and is a union-buster, among many other similar things. With this track record, do you think he’ll have any trouble finding deep-pocketed clients, thus making a lot of money and appearing successful, and as if he really knows what he’s talking about?
Now he’s latched to the Clinton bandwagon? Please. Once again, not ruffling any feathers there in the main power structures of our society. Hardly a visionary and brave move on his part.
It’s much harder to start a revolution, and fight against “the machine.”
A good place to check out any one is here at Sourcewatch.
newtonusr, did you clear your calendar for Saturday’s SoCal meet-up?
Pachacutec @ 106
He did not answer my question, but I understand that he was here to discuss his book which, while the research is probably extensively used in politics, was not actually about politics, and from his answers I get that’s why he didn’t want to get into it. That’s okay, and I appreciate that he came here…I’m sure it ain’t easy. Problem is, not taking the opportunity to answer those “Megatrend” questions..is all the more reason why I want Gore/Dodd or Dodd or Edwards or some combination thereof. JMHO
Marion in Savannah @ 114 -
i’m on “company manners” in this thread. :)
Loo Hoo. @ 107
Good, now since cadaver man is his ultimate boss, he needs to go to…I know…dream on.
selise @ 113
No pics, yet. But DO NOT INSTALL YET, PLEASE.
2 clients so far have wiped their hard disks, instead of first reading the instructions. And it’s an easy mistake to make.
Loo Hoo. @ 116
Hi Loo Hoo. I will know for certain by Monday afternoon, and will let NorCal pups know I’m coming, for possible car-pool.
newtonusr @ 120
please tell me they had current backups?
hmmm a cool chill is in the air…. and a sudden departure…….was it something we said or didnt say?? just sayin…..
Yippee! Are other NorCal pups coming? I’ve missed the threads lately…
LS @ 117
Forgive me, but did he not realize that FDL was populated by people who are rabidly interested in politics and assume/realize that politics is only slightly less important than breathing? Did he think he was going to discuss shopping trends here? Really…
Uh…oh…judiciary committee sends out emails with identities of 150 whistleblowers…yikeola:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._1027.html
selise @ 118
ditto!
newtonusr @ 120
One did, about 3 weeks old (bad kitty), and the other - well, let’s say she is thinking about backup now.
Ouch.
Marion in Savannah @ 125
I wanted to ask him if, according to his microtrending expertise, I could revert to being 15 and eating cheetos…but I decided to be polite and lurk for the rest of the thread. Hmmmm…I wonder what microtrend he thinks he’s in? I should have asked that…dagnabit.
Loo Hoo. @ 124
If they want to ride with me, sure.
Nothing firm at all.
newtonusr @ 128
Ah, a learning experience :)
All I can say is I’m a human being not a trend.
tw3k @ 131
And an expensive one at that.
“Let’s see - what does reformat mean?”
They had a lot of warning.
Mark met his match and then some.
newtonusr @ 128
ouch. hurts just thinking about it.
’scuse me while i go grab an external hd and get my own backup current.
not planning to do any system installs, but still… better not to ignore a useful reminder.
newtonusr @ 133
bummer it was costly, gotta love all those 000000 on disk tho.
These candidates have to do what my hero Dodd did, take an effing Stand, and let the chips fall where they may. Americans deserve truth…obviously, people such as FEMA heads, believe we deserve lies.
Take a Stand for the Constitution and start defending this country from the enemies within…dagnabit!!! Repubs, Dems, Libertarians, Independents all agree to support the Constitution. People understand that. All of this second-guessing and confusion is just that…confusion. Tell me loud and clear what you’re about, and I’ll listen. Lie to me, and you’re toast.
It just takes me too long to formulate a question. I think my point above about the marketing issue as compared to the reality of what we get when we elect the candidates of the marketers was a good one. The article on Mitt Romney in the New Yorker is telling on this point. link
What I find interesting is that somebody can write a book on just numbers. During the last election, teachers in the middle school and the high school actually went through the issues. Kerry won on all the important points, but when it became time to vote for the candidate Bush won overwhelmingly. Here in GA you vote like your parents. The repubs are going to use immigration as a racist issue and unfortunately when you use racism, numbers don’t matter.
A reminder on book salon threads — please stay on the topic of the book.
Millineryman @ 132
I’m mulling this one over.
Whichever candidate can Keep the Truth Simple Stupid across the board will, at this point in time, win the election. America is sick of lies and manipulation. They will follow their intuition, if they are allowed to, barring “unforeseen” circumstances.
Ian is upstairs
Jane Hamsher @ 140
Did we misbehave badly? I guess we thought that since he’s working for Hillary’s campaign he might be open to answering some questions that related. Sorry.
Sorry to intrude into the party so late, but Ian has a new thread upstairs. You know what they say, time flies when you’re having fun!
Jane Hamsher @ 140
a suggestion -
previous thread to continue any OT discussion
next thread for discussion w/ ian.
Selise, Good Comment. I signed on late for the Book Salon and now I’m not sure whether or not I should stay or go.
Mark: are union members part of the microtrend that will sustain progressive or Democratic politics?
Sheep follow. If there’s a single bellwether, then sheep plod along comfortably. If there are multiple bellwethers, each representing a discrete “microtrend,” then sheep get confused and disoriented. BFD!
I’m Looking for candidates who set trends, not for those who follow them. I’m looking for candidates who associate with idealists, not for candidates who associate with “consultants.”
Mark Penn @ 23
Does her version of progressivism involve the anti-flag-burning bill? anti-unionism? continued free trade NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.? and other Republican ideas?
“her” plans or her copy of John Edwards’ plan?
“her campaign has been a big campaign about some big goals”?
Really? I thought it was about saying as little as she could, so nobody could accuse her of being too far right, left or anything specific.
Loo Hoo. @ 107
Of course, that was over the phony press conference fiasco…but I’m sure nobody “had his back”…unlike Scooter and Karl Rove.
“When a young Justice Department lawyer named (John) Pat Philbin crossed David Addington in a policy dispute, Addington made it his mission to block Philbin’s promotion to a top Justice job. Addington let it be known that Philbin was a “marked man,” says a colleague who spoke anonymously to avoid clashing with Addington. (Addington and Philbin declined to comment.)”