Matt Stoller is reporting that the environmental groups are being quite responsible in not demagoguing the science of the California fires.
I’m sure we can expect that same kind of responsible decorum from those who manage to drag their knuckles off the floor and place them oh so gently on the keyboard.
Or not.
Commentator Mary Mostert, on the conservative Web site RenewAmerica.US/ tries to blame the Sierra Club and forest-preservation policies for California’s wildfires. She writes: “It has been known for many years by those actually involved in the forests that the Sierra Club policies which became public policy in the 1990s under Bill Clinton, would cause exactly the kinds of fires we are now experiencing …. I identified the real culprit in the growing forest-fire problem in an article in 2002 entitled, Our Burning Forests — the Legacy of Radical Environmentalism.” Right, extra trees caused California’s wildfires, not the Southwest drought.
Some anti-environmentalists take a scorched-earth approach toward climate change. Until the planet resembles a lunar landscape they’ll continue denying that greenhouse gases have anything to do with bizarre weather patterns. By then we’ll all be burning in a man-made hell on earth, instead of just those who deserve the roasting.
And then there are those good citizens at Blackwater, who using the opportunity to help them shore up their somewhat faltering public relations image.
Rick Jacobs of the Courage Campaign:
In the midst of the fires out here, Blackwater has the temerity to suggest that had it been in place in East San Diego County, it could have helped put out the fire. They fail to mention that they’d have had untold quantities of munitions on site which would have made a horror into a massive bomb.
Instead of asking the public to help them with their image, how about improving their image by announcing they’re ending the attempt to conquer the East County?
Ah disaster capitalism. The rosy fingered dawn in the midst of any tragedy.
(photo by Bubba Hotep)
Related posts:
- Too Little, Too Late from Powell, Ashcroft and Ridge
- FDL Book Salon Discusses “The Test Of Our Times” With Gov. Tom Ridge
- Sonic Cannons Deployed at Issa and Davis Town Hall Meetings in San Diego
- Ridge Watch: Duct Tape and Peppermints, Meaningless Nouns…
- Early Morning Swim: Rachel Takes Tom Ridge to the Woodshed
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Jane!
“Where there’s smoke, there’s work!”-Firesign Theater, The Giant Rat of Sumatra
Zed?
Jane:
Did you see my comment at the tail end of the last thread?
It’s Naomi Klein’s Shock Therapy!
Biodun @ 5
Yupper.
Talk about creative thinking! I wonder how many of the people playing ‘pin the blame on the libruls’ actually live in any one of the fire areas.
Actually, I seem to recall that the conservation groups want fewer trees, with more small fires that can be controlled more easily: patches that are different ages and kinds of growth, instead of large areas that are all the same. Controlled burns vs Smoky-the-Bear-prevent-or-fight-all-fires. They’d also prefer fewer homes in canyons that the fires use like chimneys. (Of course, that would mean fewer million-dollar-view houses.)
I have a niece and nephew (and their significant others) in San Diego. So far, they’re fine, but it is such a worry. My heart goes out to all of those affected (and I am disgusted at the attempt to blame environmentalists by the knuckle draggers). Blech.
ot fyi – schip debate is in progress on the house floor (c-span1).
MR. Bill @ 2
Dave? Dave? Dave’s not here.
May I take your hat and goat?
Wow – I have not thought about FST in a very long time…
Janet Reno 911
P J Evans @ 7
IIRC, the Clinton admin took some serious heat from the fundies and rethugs over doing controlled burns during some of the fires in national park areas in the ’90s. As well as clearing out of brush and undergrowth.
Hey, maybe that’s something Little Boots can do post presidency! He seems to like to clear out brush. Let him earn his pension at least since he hasn’t earned his salary.
punaise @ 11
Punaise – you missed this morning’s Pun challenge.
Blackwater sure wants to go to new (and also maybe old) places with that new corporate logo…
Someone at DKos is reporting that there is a rumor that all planes/helicopters that fight the fires are grounded due to Bush’s visit. Anyone here in CA that can confirm or deny?
Toby Wollin @ 10
Nick Danger, Third Eye!
Throwing on my Courage/Calitics hat on for a second here. A local award winning journalist in SD just put up a piece on Calitics. She interviewed a Blackwater spokesman who said:
EPU’d
Rosa Brooks today in the LA Times:
Straitjacket Bush
dakine01 @ 12
In 2000, Candidate Bush blamed Clinton Administration policies for that year’s disasterous wild fires. Looks like Preznit Bush has forgotten to fix things in the last seven years. You’d think an experienced brush rancher would get right on these things.
P J Evans @ 18
“The problem with Bush is that he is the president — and he gives instructions to the CIA and military, without having to go through his dental fillings. “
Yep – he doesn’t have to get messages from aliens through his dental fillings – he has his own live-in alien…Dick “Wake me up when the meeting’s over” Cheney.
solai @ 15
I don’t know, but that’s one of the reasons I didn’t want him anywhere the fuck around here, precisely b/c of that. But I repeat that I do not know whether this is true.
Julia Rosen @ 17
I don’t care if Blackwater promises to strew rose petals everywhere. I DO NOT WANT THEM IN MY STATE. FULL STOP. GET OUT.
Gah! I am not shocked by DiFi’s silence on this matter, but I am deeply deeply disappointed at Boxer’s silence.
Dick “Wake me up when the meeting’s over” Cheney.
Toby! My goodness, you are on a roll lately. You do have someone following you around and writing all of the really good ones down, don’t you?
Guys,
What is happening in CA shouldn’t suprise anyone. Most of the state is heavily overgrown, and the drought that is happening there is not helping anything. When I was in CA, we went through the same thing in the 80’s, the Santa Anna winds are killers.
Not sure how Blackwater came into the picture, but if they have the resources to help, let em. I don’t get it are they the new bad guys cause of a single incident in Iraq?
Interactive Google So Cal wildfires map
Kurt @ 24
Troll alert!
Demi @ 23
Heh – nope – but we’ll put Christy(as resident Attorney) in charge of licensing rights….
peanutbutter @ 21
Oh, come on. The Preznit’s going to hug people, say that he “understands”, and grin for the camera. Everyone wants all that. Why else would he do that at every opportunity?
selise @ 9
Thanks, I tuned in just as a Michigan rep. was saying that while So. California burns, Nancy plays games.
JPL @ 29
And Nancy made Pete Stark apologize???????
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you!!!
“I identified the real culprit in the growing forest-fire problem in an article in 2002 entitled, Our Burning Forests — the Legacy of Radical Environmentalism.” Right, extra trees caused California’s wildfires, not the Southwest drought.”
Those must be the same trees that Reagan blamed for more air pollution.
Kurt @ 24
Try “Santa Ana” winds.
Here’s a big fat lie from today’s gaggle:
Number one, these aren’t forests. Number two, if you “clear out the brush” then you have massive mudslides. As a matter of fact, we are going to have to reseed the hillsides after these fires to protect against mudslides, should we be blessed with rain this year. The roots of the vegetation keep the soil together so it doesn’t slide down into the ocean.
Liars.
But what’s new? Yesterday there was this:
Health benefits from Global Warming: not as many people will die from the cold. Ooooooh-kay then.
Biodun @ 25
These google maps are an extremely useful way to distribute this info. I think by far the best, that I’d love to see matched in LA and OC is SanDiego’s (by radio station KPBS):
San Diego County Fires – KPBS Online
Orange County has one, but it’s not updated nearly frequently enough (certainly not by comparison to KPBS’s):
Santiago fire area (OC)
KPBS also has a twitter update stream which is just fabulous, and I have not found anything like this for either LA or OC:
kpbsnews
Didn’t I hear some Forest Service people on the tube the other day admitting that years of no-burn forest management was a large part of the problem throughout the Southwest. And I believe that no-burn policy preceded Clinton (if the Right can’t blame something on Clinton they figure they don’t score points with the “base”). But was no-burn a Sierra Club/environmental lobby policy? Someone explain, please.
Blackwater would have put out the fires? Since when can you extinguish a fire by shooting it with automatic weapons?
You can also watch video feed of Chimpy’s visit to the So Cal fire regions here.
Toby Wollin @ 10
Rancho Malario, if you lived here you’d be home now.
Toby Wollin @ 30
omg. if you think that one is bad, you haven’t been listening to c-span enough. i should start keeping a list.
James, Los Angeles @ 33
Who will probably be balanced off by the elderly and very young who will die from over heating….
raven @ 38
Yep, 1/32nd mile to the Antelope Highway…
When I was in Cali in 1984 they were doing preventive burns — in the parks. You can’t really do it in suburban populated areas. It’s also my understanding that there was beetle infestation, and Gov or someone had asked for federal help and it was denied. Having most of their equipment either not in state or not funded hurt them. Having 800 of their National Guard in Iraq hurt them.
Toby Wollin @ 13
that’s probably a good thing – for all parties.
Biodun @ 37
For those strong enough to watch the “Firefighter in Chief” has he told anyone they’re “doin’ a heckuva job” yet?
Toby Wollin @ 41
It’s no a butte, it’s a mound.
I claim this land in the name of Espain!
Domini domini domini, you’re all catholics now
I play this for my wife and she KNOWS I’m nuts!
“The preznit came to visit the fires and all we got was hosed.”
How did the party of Reagan stray so far? Ironically, Putin is now the voice of reason in the world. Link
Wasn’t it just 20 years ago, our leader(s) were the ones calling for diplomacy and restraint? Boy how the GOP has melt down.
selise @ 39
Selise – I swear, we need a workshop here at the Lake entited, “How to Actually USE the Resources That Are Provided For You.”
I have yet to figure out how to use C-Span at home – I don’t know if our Roadrunner is not fast enough (or my brain is not fast enough), but I have never been able to go there and actually view anything.
peanutbutter @ 26
Let’s not jump to conclusions, and even if you are correct, there is no need to feed by quoting.
Joddy @ 35
I don’t know what all is going on here. I DO know that backfires and preventive fires are done all the time. You only have to look through previous fires in so Cal to see that some of them were from such management gone out of control *ahem*.
I do know that in some very specific areas, there have been protests at doing preventive fires because of local (very local) endangered species that could be wiped out. That’s really two gov’t agencies batting heads there.
There’s a few NIMBY types who don’t want the smoke right next to them.
But no, in general there is NOT a policy against burning out brush and such. I think some of the issues have been with sufficient funding and equipment, plus it is quite true that we are exceptionally dry this year (less than an inch of rain this year) PLUS the winds were exceptionally strong (hurricane force down the cyns for the first time I think). That particular combo has ignited more *multiple* fires at once than ever before. Singly, none of these fires would pose a problem. Together — well, we can’t do mutual aid so easily between counties which is normally what happens.
Also, can’t blame this on “all those new developments” (this is not to say that there isn’t an over population problem in this area of the country; we clearly have way too many people and too little WATER for that). You need to remember that many homes that burned down in OC had survived many similar fires before. One house that burned down was 100 years old.
It’s a huge, complex issue, and I guarantee you that any simplistic explanation attaching to it will just be wrong.
IrishJim @ 47
The GOP sold themselves to the Bush family and the rest is history.
raven @ 45
When I was in college (ahem…a long time ago), I worked at the radio station and we used to play the tapes for “Fourth Tower of Inverness” as a show every week.
It took all of whatever moral fiber I had at the time NOT to walk off with those when I graduated. Is that stuff out on cd? I’ll have to look.
That stuff was the best.
Okay, there’ve been wildfires every year for a while now in So Cal, but arson doesn’t usually play a part. Will somebody please, please tell me what is wrong with this formula…
Blackwater
PLUS Training Facility East of San Diego
PLUS Public Outrage
PLUS Conveniently Placed Lit Match
EQUALS Fire Sale
Yeah and having Arnold veto 4 out 5 bills intended to meet the recommendations of his Blue Ribbon Fire Committee from the wake of the ‘03 fires did not help matters.
raven @ 45
“The Pyramid is opening!”
“Which one?”
“The one with the ever-widening hole in it..”
I’d bet the Marines at Pendleton have all those safety measures. They have problems with fires starting around their ranges.
We’ve had fires caused by hot converters on vehicles and by windblown embers. Does he have a canned answer for those too?
Toby Wollin @ 52
Oh yea. http://www.firesigntheatre.com/
MR. Bill @ 55
OK…now I have my gift list through my 100th birthday I think:
http://laughstore.stores.yahoo…..tsket.html
OT but TRex is still down for the count and Naomi Klein is doing Late Nite tonight (at 7:30 PT). I’m going to be out on the town so if you all could stop by and take care of her, I would very much appreciate it.
Toby Wollin @ 48
I get it with Roadrunner – so that’s prolly not your problem.
Jane Hamsher @ 59
We will behave nicely, we promise, Jane.
peanutbutter @ 50
Yes, thank you.
Forest management is incredibly complex. Fires are supposed to occur but when you mix in science, politics, and good old human nature (the NIMBYism you refer to), tragedy WILL result.
But it sure would make it easier to blame it all on al Queda.
Toby Wollin @ 48
i thought that’s what the bottom of the threads (after the new thread is up) were for? *g*
… for streaming c-span, you can even do audio w/out video to save bandwidth.
are you home now? if not, get my attention (especially when some of the tech geeks are around) when you are, and we’ll trouble shoot.
i’ve had a lot of help from other ‘pups… we are all smarter when we work together. *g*
Toby Wollin @ 61
and Suzanne will keep us from trashing the place…
Hey selise, you get the pics?
And any sleep?
I’d be curious to know if there’s any difference in how ChimpCo reacts to this wildfire vs. when Gray Davis was gov.
Biodun @ 37
Uh, no thanks.. :-P
selise @ 63
Nope – still being flogged at my desk…
Toby Wollin @ 61
We do? :)
Meanwhile, al-Maliki borrows a page from BushCo:
Right on, Bro!
raven @ 69
Well, I and my alternative personality do.
mc @ 62
By not blaming al Qada, Bush would have to accept some responsibility. That simply cannot happen.
Matt Stoller does us all a disservice if he’s really so patronizing as to a) police environmental groups, b) offer them advice or remark upon their restraint.
Enviromental policy gurus have been playing in the Western-rural political arena for a couple generations, minimum.
It’s incomprehensible that Stoller should be ‘congratulating’ enviros for “refusing to demagogue excessively on climate change as the cause of these fires.”
Excessively?? Don’t know how one demagogues “excessively”—but that aside, it requires zero restraint and zero demagoguery to point out the basic ecological facts.
These ecosystems are fire-adapted. Some plant species in Southern California actually exude petrochemical compounds. So–Suppress the natural fire regime, and eventually, inevitably, you get conflagration.
Seee?? NO demagoguery required.
Note that w/o prescribed burns, the fires were likely to occur whether global warming was a factor or not.
Lack of rainfall and increased temps may’ve compounded the problem, increasing the scale of the fire, but the effects of El Nina (secondary driver) and global warming (tertiary driver) can’t be cited when the main issue—fire suppression in a fire-adapted ecosystem defined by a strong fire regime—is clearly the obvious, proximate cause.
Note also that the suburban land use patterns (sprawl) has an “urban heat island” effect that increases temps, exacerbating both local risk of wildfires and global warming.
Stating the ecological facts can’t be defined as “demagoguing.” And if political junkies had not pretended that environmental issues should take a back seat, politically, to their own pet causes, Stoller’s patronizing and unhelpful commentary wouldn’t be an issue.
The guys he mentions have been negotiating the politics of forests, settlements and wildfires for multiple decades. No demagoguery needed.
I’m certainly no expert on these matters. But it seems to me that the more heat you have, (global warming) and the more densely populated the area is, the more dangerous the potential for fire. I fail to understand that this is a difficult concept.
MR. Bill @ 65
1) yes… they are amazing, beautiful and you really should, imo, show them off. was trying to think about how to ask you if i could help you get them posted to a webpage. (hint-hint).
2) better, thanks. 3 days in a row with 6 hours! next person who tells me that sleep deprivation is not torture is going to provoke me into yelling.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 74
You did not go to the Roberts University of Alternative Thinking?
Hmmmm….that was, then, one awfully convenient fire. Who benefits? I don’t remember the Latin for it, but it’s an attorney’s term. I mean, hell, if you could stop a recall election with one match, and you were a blackwater kind a guy (shoot em and they don’t cause problems), what would you do? Just a little too good to be true, methinks.
Toby Wollin @ 68
well, if you want, holler next time you are at fdl and at home – or email me at speakeasy dot net.
selise @ 75
I’ll take any help I can get.
mc @ 44
Speaking of heckuva job, Brownie, check out this link from BoingBoing…
Brownie and CA fires…
Badwater @ 72
Blaming Al Queda will ruin their whole fighting em over there so we don’t have to fight them here propaganda though. I guess if Al Queda is here now, we better re-deploy all of our troops in Iraq back home post haste.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 74
Well Kiddo if you had read the repug platform, you’d realize that they don’t use their brain for thinking.
peanutbutter @ 67
Chimpy did some hugging. Is there more to his job than that? It’s difficult to remember after seven years of him.
selise @ 78
You got it.
“Fourth Tower of Inverness”
That’s not Firesign is it?
raven @ 85
I thought it was….
And Borges has this great poem about how those who stay up all night suffer the torment of holding the world together while the dreamers float away.
And deserve our thanks.
IrishJim @ 81
That’s a great point that the MSM, especially Fox, will never explore.
MR. Bill @ 79
woo hoo!!
that was easy… i’ll stop thinking about how to convince you and email you right away. i KNOW ‘pups here are going to want to see what you’ve created.
snoopy dance!
Badwater @ 83
Was he wearing his codpiece?
raven @ 85
Well, whadya know…
http://www.zbs.org/catalog/
ZBS Foundation. 1972
I hope OldCoastie is okay:
Santiago fire threatens new areas
Official calls Trabuco and Live Oak canyons ‘a box of matches ready to go’ as firefighters try to save homes there and keep the flames from moving into Riverside County.
Toby Wollin @ 86
Damn, I am really glad it’s not!
ZBS
nomolos @ 89
No, just his Tony Lama’s
MR. Bill @ 87
Victor?
I work with the Sierra Club (on their magazine) and they sent out a release yesterday in response to the fires:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 23, 2007
Contact: Kristina Johnson
(415) 977-5619
Statement of Sierra Club Executive Director Carl Pope on Southern California Wildfires
The Sierra Club deeply concerned about the families who have been put in harm’s way by the recent fires in Southern California, and about the firefighters courageously working to protect homes and lives.
In the wake of this tragedy, there have been some people willing to place blame on environmental groups. There is no need to sensationalize this tragedy for political gain. Americans deserve better. The Sierra Club has long supported responsible fuel reduction around communities and fully supports any wildfire policy that makes community protection its top priority.
This week’s fires, which are taking place largely in brush and chaparral, underscore the need to focus our fire prevention efforts in the areas around communities, rather than deep in the backcountry forest.
Not a single fuels reduction project has been appealed in these Southern California forests in a decade. In fact, the vast majority of Forest Service fuel reduction projects nationwide–97 percent, according to a 2003 GAO study–move forward without litigation.
With dangerous conditions caused by global warming only increasing, we can unfortunately expect to see more and more of these types of catastrophic wildfires.
Experts agree that focusing on the area immediately around homes should be the first priority of any wildfire policy, and the situation so many are facing in California today reinforces this need. We can all agree that removing brush and small trees immediately around homes and communities will help save homes and lives, and we must dedicate the resources needed to do this most important work first. Forest Service experts have shown that this can be accomplished.
Now the Congress and the Bush Administration need the will to protect communities, not the timber industry.
###
raven @ 95
Heh.
Jorge Luis, rather.
nomolos @ 89
No, he was just glad to be there.
cynic @ 77
Cui bono.
And now BW is saying, well if we already had our facility here, we could have “helped” with the current situation.
egregious @ 99
Oh, are they going to put in a professional firefighting facility too?
Last time I looked, toting a gun was not a skills requirement for fighting fires.
nomolos @ 89
Leary-ly: strap on, strut in, and draw pout.
peanutbutter @ 50
Thanks, peanutbutter, for some sensible words.
There are some interesting parliamentary machinations a happening in our House right now all about SCHIP
Toby Wollin @ 100
I get it that we don’t like the mercenary aspect of BW but I think you are mistaken to think these guys can’t do anything but shoot. (ducking again)
egregious @ 99
That seems to not be such a great argument for BW. If the National Guard were home, they could have helped. If more Marines were at Camp Pendleton, they could have helped. No need for a BW facility. Just bring the troops home.
egregious @ 99
I don’t want BW. I want my National Guard.
PFFFFFFFFT!!!!
JPL @ 82
Well… you’ve got me there. I haven’t read the Republican platform. ;0)
nomolos @ 103
We’re holding tight to the rethuglicans here!
Heeeeeere thuggy thuggy thuggy! Heeeeeeeerrre thuggy thuggy!
peanutbutter @ 106
Remember who did the shooting at Kent State.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 107
See how nicely that self preservation instinct kicked in there? ;-)
The rosy middle-fingered dawn…
Think any Republic will say “If the snowflake babies had been born they could have helped fight these terrible fires.”?
Badwater @ 112
But they were aborted!
raven @ 104
Well, yeah! Based on their actions in N’Awlins, they can disarm law-abiding citizens and block folks from returning to their undamaged residences, too.
Cui bono, dude?
raven @ 104
Raven – I’ll do my research. If they provide professional firefighting academy training, I will be the first to put it here and give them a thumbs up.
I just believe that firefighting requires a whole separate set of skills and personality attributes than does guarding diplomats in Iraq or some of the other activities I think Blackwater engages in.
But I will take a bit of time and look it up.
dakine01 @ 114
So, if you know I shouldn’t have said that how come I didn’t?
StarCraft VO @ 53
The sad thing about our country is that we really have to consider the unacceptable. I was talking about this possibility yesterday with my hubby. They are responsible for the deaths of over a million Iraqis. Why not torch the area around the town working against the Blackwater installation? Just because I am paranoid that doesn’t mean etc, etc.
raven @ 109
Sure. And they got used down south during the school desegregation, and they got deployed here in the LA riots.
But as military, they are answerable to UCMJ and so on. Plus they are a part of the government structure. BW? Wild card, wild thugs, NOT what we want or need at all.
peanutbutter @ 119
And I spent 6 months in a NG unit from Rhode Island in Vietnam.
Toby Wollin @ 116
I disagree. Even if it turns out they can put out the fires with spit and sweat, I don’t want them here. Full stop. No private armies. FULLER STOP. All you have to do is read through the history books on the role of private armies in Europe from about 1200s to 1800s in keeping the serfs down & quiet.
raven @ 120
That is something I’d like to see changed. They should not be deployed outside of the country. Too easily abused from their intended purpose.
peanutbutter @ 122
Ok I am totally wrong. . .again.
From CNN, Warmer temperatures tied to wildfires, scientists say
AP – President Bush dismissed comparisons between the federal response to Hurricane Katrina and the California wildfires Thursday, saying that getting help to people who are hurting is the most important thing.
peanutbutter @ 121
I don’t argue with you about the use of private armies. Raven was just making the point that I was jumping to the conclusion that Blackwater is a bunch of militaristic thugs rather than having any sort of evidence at my disposal.
I went to the sight.
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/courses.asp
Courses:
Open Enrollment: Pistols, handguns, concelaed carry, carbines, shotguns.
Advanced Highway safety (dangerous conditions driving)
Law Enforcement courses(SWAT)
Military Sniper
Military Driver (dangerous/terrorism conditions driving)
Military close quarters (guard training)
Military K9 Handler training
Specialty: executive protection, high risk security
Specific secutiry officer training for NC and VA
Mariner’s three weapon qualification course
Bushmaster Weapons Courses
Heckler and Koch Weapons Courses
See…no professional firefighting at all.
raven @ 117
Sometimes it is difficult to resist temptations.
Mr. Prez. Do you “think” there is any relationship between global warming and hotter temperatures?
dakine01 @ 124
Once again the liberal media tries to mislead us. Thanks to Fox, we know it was al Qada. Liberal CNN should stop trying to sneak that global warming nonsense into the discussion.
egregious @ 99
Just what we need. Outsourcing fire protection to thugs looking for work.
The view here is that the declared presidential candidates need to take their cue from Mr. Gore.
Would you care to comment on global warming, Mr. Prez?
AP – President Bush dismissed comparisons between the federal response to Hurricane Katrina and the California wildfires Thursday, saying that getting help to people who are hurting is the most important thing.
Blackwater is the only one who stands to gain from the horrific fires that have devastated California and those living there. I find it hard to believe they had nothing to do with the arson especially since the areas burned badly included the one they were interested in buying. Or is it some other area? /JMO.
Gotta run; be back later.
Fixed your typo. :-)
By toby
Is this what’s called a photo opp?
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/07…..YATxkGw_IE
raven @ 123
OK, sorry. I have no idea of what your point is, then, and if I completely missed it, I apologized. I don’t care what Blackwater can do, nothing will alter my position that they should not even exist.
Outside of that, there’s plenty of room for discussion ;-)
Raven @ 93 —
ZBS has been around since back in the day of KRAB radio in Seattle (1970s?). IIRC the ZBS stands for zero bullsh*t. Meatball Fulton was in charge years ago and they have done some excellent radio productions. “Moon Over Morocco” is my favorite but “Fourth Tower of Inverness” is good too. They’re all good! Enjoy!
Speaking of Disaster Capitalism:
Well, maybe if we reinstated the Eisenhower-era marginal tax rates on the hyper-rich, we’d be able to afford ten times the government we have now. But the rich must never be allowed to suffer a feather’s weight of inconvenience!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 137
or something more?
difi and shrub look like such good friends. blegh.
National Guard is Citizen Soldiers with families. Their motivation is to serve the country. National Guard appeals to young people who want to earn money for college. They are people who would lay down their lives for others. Blackwater appeals to mercinaries who kill people for money.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 137
DIFI has gone from metaphorically walking arm in arm with Bush, to literally walking arm in arm with him. Wow.
hackworth @ 142
NG are local soldiers. They want to help out in the country not outside of it. The ones that I know, anyway. None of them dreamed they’d wind up months even years in Iraq.
And gosh, recruitment’s waaaaaaay down. Wonder why.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 132
“Ya see, one was about water. The other is about fire. See, fire and water. Heh, heh. Two totally different things. One’s in the south, the other’s out west. Again, totally different.”
mc @ 145
“One was about poor people, the other was aabout my base.”
mc @ 145
omg! is that you w?
Joddy @ 102
Clearly a confluence of factors contributed to the scale and intensity of the wilfires.
However, “backfires” and “preventive” fires mean nothing, as they are not synonymous with prescribed burns of a fire-adapted ecosystem defined by a fire regime.
A prescribed burn or controlled burn–carries out the naturally occurring fire regime, which will inevitably happen, so as to maintain native vegetation and ecosystems AND to prevent catastrophic wildfires that are driven primarily by fire suppression.
So, YES, the Forest Service, as the original poster pointed out, has moved away from prescribed/controlled burns and towards the Bush (mal)Admin’s ideological adherence to timber profits.
This fire is the result. (again, not the sole factor.)
Second, urbanized landscapes and suburbanizing land use patterns DO, in fact, raise ambient temperatures and lower the water table. It is a plain fact that recent residential development DID contribute (significantly) to the fire risk, AND placed homeowners and families directly in the path of (& in the midst of) wildfires that were going to happen whether homes were built there or not.
And those fires will continue to happen.
omg! is that you w?
Sounds sorta like Lao Tzu.
On Valium.
Dear sensible and intelligent moderator
I screwed up the above piece.
Should have the “mc” quote tag around the “omg! is that you W?”
mc @ 145
See, here’s the thing…It was a big fire and it burned. In other words, it was hot and you shouldn’t touch it.
Swopa upstairs guys!
hackworth @ 142
Bush was in the National Guard. Seems like he doesn’t fit that description at all.
LA Times:
Thank you so much, George. They’re going to have a lot to say about you: not much of it will be complimentary.
The Hill is reporting…
Levin, who is working with Appropriations Committee member Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.), said the duo is talking with the panel’s other Democrats about including language in the supplemental that would target a complete withdrawal from Iraq in nine months.
Employing that approach could put the onus on Republican opponents to secure 60 votes on the Senate floor to strip the withdrawal language from the bill, Levin said. Some centrist Republicans have been open to the idea of a timetable for withdrawal, but have called for the goal to be 15 months.
The ideas are under serious consideration within the Democratic Conference, senators said Wednesday. Democrats are still finalizing strategy and, according to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), “Everything is on the table. The only thing that is not on the table is signing a blank check.”
http://thehill.com/leading-the…..10-25.html
P J Evans @ 154
Remember – never, ever take responsibility for your own actions.
no surprise those compassionate conservatives find that this is Bill Clinton’s fault … again. (by way of the Sierra Club)
Badwater @ 129
Scientists?! I thought the wildfires were a plague sent by the AlMighty to smite the heathens who speaketh ill against Blackwater apostles. /s
Clarification @ 148—
to revise “means nothing”– meant to say that the comment re ‘backfires’ is not on point. A “backfire” is a fire-fighting technique.
Controlled or prescribed burns are methods of restoring ecosystems to their naturally occurring fire regime. The two are have very different purposes, and are used in entirely different situations.
Ecosystem ‘management’ consistent with a given fire regime generally prevents catastrophic wildfires at this scale. Together with common-sense land use (i.e., sane land use), much of the cost in homes lost could be avoided. (to a degree, California’s a special case; it’s especially fire-prone, and these are extreme circumstances). It’s why we don’t build in floodplains anymore.
So a forester offering a ‘preventive fire’ is not engaging in the type of prescribed burns the commenter referred to—and won’t be effective at all in the face of a conflagration like the one we’re now witnessing. Any forester offering the former to prevent the latter is selling you a bill of goods.
We. Don’t. Need. Blackwater. To. Save. California. A private mercenary army, with no state (and apparently no federal) oversight or control is not conducive to democracy.
I submit that what California does need is its billion dollars worth of equipment returned from Iraq, replenished, and with spares and maintenance crews. It needs its citizen soldiers returned from Mr. Bush’s imperial wars so that they can use their skills – notably police, fire & rescue and healthcare skills – working for their home communities. And it needs competent and effective coordination with national and sister state fire and emergency services associations.
Mr. Bush did Californians a disservice by traveling there for a photo-op to express “the nation’s” concern, while his several hundred strong security detail disrupts fire and emergency service operations.
He would have shown more effective leadership had he offered condolences from afar, while doing his job by lighting a fire under his FEMA and other national bureaucrats to make sure that California – and the Gulf States – get the aid they need to endure Mother Nature, minimize casualties and loss, and start recovering from her wrath.
Toby Wollin @ 116
Well this is not definitive research but I do have an anecdote to bolster your theory Toby:
I was working with a group of friends during a July 4th fireworks show. We were busy setting up the tubes and such in an area which was cordoned off. But some yahoos insisted on walking over and through anyway with lit cigarettes! Only the police were there during set up and they were more interested in hauling drunks away and pretty much showed no interest in helping us maintain our boundary. The firefighters showed when the show was to begin, and they immediately ushered everyone back away from where our fireworks were set up. SAFETY was their first priority. My friends and I were so relieved when they showed up.
Shrub loves misdirection. So let’s keep an eye out for what’s happening in DC while everyone’s looking at SoCal and Iran. What bureaucrats or lobbyists are coming or going? What new regulations or “interpretations” are being slipped past? What deals are being made while we look elsewhere?
New Thread…
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-its-cage/
sombrerofallout @ 148
Well. I was after description, not necessarily technical words. But I will stand corrected. However…
OK, as I understand this description, we do indeed have prescribed burns in this area. It’s entirely possible that these have been reduced in number which would be due to factors such as funding (for the fire depts, including needed equipment etc) — also within the penny pinching Bush (mal)admin’s practices, to borrow your phrase below.
You totally lost me here. WHAT FORESTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
I can tell you that there are NO TREES… NO TIMBER…along here in these wildfires. There is NO FORESTRY OR LOGGING GOING ON HERE IN BRUSH AND SCRUB LAND. I drive through all these regions that are on fire regularly; I in fact drove past the Agua Dulce fire Sunday morning before we understood the true scope of this conflagration. I live two miles from the Santiago fire. I drive down to San Diego regularly and see both the 5 and 15. So I submit that I have a pretty good idea of what there is here.
The stresses of the population here do indeed contribute to the lowered water availability here, that’s quite true, and among the complexity of factors here. But this is in regarding the population here in southern California as a whole, NOT in with respect to the outlying develepments that have burned, some of which have been in place for over 100 years.
(I hear too much screaming about “recent developments” being “so careless” as to contribute to this problem — when in fact they are often much better built and placed than developments in the 70’s for example — I want to quash this now, because it muddies the understanding of what is going on here. The sheer population mass, regardless of where you place them in soCal is the contributor to the issue here.)
Not necessarily. The hotter winds, reduced water availabiity, etc, have contributed toward much larger, faster, and multiplied fires which are reaching into areas not before burned. Again people are assuming that new developments are burning down, or even that previously burned developments are burning down again; but most are not realizing that particularly in OC the burnt areas include many very old developments that have so far escaped fires.
Unfortunately very true.
Badwater @ 153
The Air Guard
peanutbutter @ 138
Toby Wollin @ 116
This conversation went from the Guard and Marines being able to “help” to BW not being trained to fight fires. The National Guard and Marines are not trained to fight fires any more than BW is. Who do you think BW people are? Largely veterans of the Army and Marines.
pb @ 164
Remember, we have some really strange forests around here (brush, rather than trees). Check the boundaries for Cleveland National Forest: a lot of the burned area is inside. I don’t know who handles controlled burns on other public lands, but they’d probably be running under similar rules.
a question for bubba, did you ever get that thing on the end of your…..
Was the budget for the National Park Service slashed like the Army Corp of Engineers?
Joddy @ 35
No-burn was the Forest Service’s policy for decades – the whole Smokey the Bear thing.
Can someone tell this nitwit Bonne Erbe that the southern California fires are not “forest fires”? The main fuel is chapparal and grass, both highly combustible, especially in the midst of a drought?
I did a search on controlled or prescribed burns in California. There were nearly 800 controlled burns in three years from ‘03”05. There would have been more but dry conditions would not allow them. These controlled burns escape at a much higher rate in California than in the rest of the US again due to the dry conditions.
Scientists disagree on the value of them in the brush conditions in Southern California. Here’s a good article on the debate:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/…..2fire.html
Also, I believe the ‘no burn’ policy was more about suppressing forest fires and the debate of letting them burn out by themselves instead of trying to fight them. The Parks Service changed their policy some years ago. Here’s another article that sheds light on those issue:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/fire233.shtml
shrub speaking to victims:
“Today your life may look dismal, but tomorrow life will be better.”
OK. Thanks. Facile schmuck.
peanutbutter @ 164
Such as management policies that veer from working with the local ecosystem in order to “get out the cut” and otherwise deliver dollars to timber interests, AND/OR developer interests.
peanutbutter @ 164
I didn’t mention any forests–the poster you’d referred to had mentioned the Forest Service.
The principle is the same whether you’re talking about the BLM, USFS, the Park Service–or County land managers.
In fact, fire-adapted ecosystems are MORE likely to have fewer trees–for obvious reasons. They burn. Tallgrass (wet) prairies in Wisconsin, Prairie Savannas in Iowa, and Shortgrass Prairies in Nebraska are MORE fire-prone than ecosystems ’strong’/’friendly’ enough to support trees.
California’s Coastal Sagebrush and Chaparral ecosystems are EVEN MORE fire-prone–and yes, I’m aware these systems lack trees. Thanks, though. Forests are obviously less at risk–and less at issue–than the SoCal ecosystems now burning.
Why?
These ecosystems require regular burning to exist. That’s what fire-adapted means. Some plants require burning in order to for their seeds to germinate:
Trees got nothin’ to do with it; my comments apply in spades for the ecosystems we’re dealing with here.
peanutbutter @ 164
The stresses of the population here do indeed contribute to the lowered water availability here, that’s quite true, and among the complexity of factors here. But this is in regarding the population here in southern California as a whole, NOT in with respect to the outlying develepments that have burned, some of which have been in place for over 100 years.
(I hear too much screaming about “recent developments” being “so careless” as to contribute to this problem — when in fact they are often much better built and placed than developments in the 70’s for example — I want to quash this now, because it muddies the understanding of what is going on here…)
Good luck with that. The County land manager from San Diego-area just announced seconds ago on the NewsHour (PBS) that zoning, residential location, and land use patterns have if not everything, then a lot to do with it. Even “better-built,” more recent developments aren’t terribly ecologically-sound (usually) and settle for a half-measure. Though this has been changing, it hasn’t gone far enough. Figuratively, that is, b/c location does make an obvious difference, as newer residential patterns have literally ‘gone too far’. “We’re built-out,” in the words of another CA interviewee.
Further, site-specific impacts of even relatively ‘green,’ dispersed, recent developments raise local temps and affect water regimes (varies by ecosystem). Cumulatively, these are significant–and can compromise critical water regimes, tipping the balance toward wildfires.
peanutbutter @ 164
Not necessarily. The hotter winds …have multiplied fires which are reaching into areas not before burned. Again people are assuming that new developments are burning down …most are not realizing that particularly in OC the burnt areas include many very old developments that have so far escaped fires.
I have no doubt this varies greatly. And “old,” medium-aged housing, and newer developments are and will be affected.
BUT “areas not before burned”? Extremely unlikely. For example:
Imagine that.
But then, California ecologists have known this for decades.
http://www.fireecology.net/pages/55
“…But it sure would make it easier to blame it all on al Queda.”
If Bush could blame it on Al Qaeda, he could immediately begin bombing them in their various hide-outs along the CA coast.
It would be years before the people would be allowed to return to their homes because George was “keeping them safe” from terrists.
One question: Isn’t CA coastal real estate awfully expensive to turn into a Blackwater killer college?
James, Los Angeles @ 33
——–
The Republicans have their own kind of Chinatown:
“It’s tough being good with that sum bitch Bush as president.” Slap!
Reagan. Slap!
Nixon. Slap!
sombrerofallout @ 73
Geez, this sounds almost like . . . SCIENCE! *G*
Great post.
cynic @ 77
Cui Bonno . . . ‘for whom the benefit’
as quoted in past by Al The Spook. Whom I miss . . .
Toby Wollin @ 86
http://drakhan.com/4tower.html
sombrerofallout @ 175
Good Scientific Spanky, thanks for your post, that was magnificent.
I still wanna know why all the MSM’s with BOOTS ON THE GROUND AT THE SCENES, all 15 or so FIRES, REPORTING LIVE, and they reported winds grounded fixed wing planes on day one . . . and up until what, late Wednesday?
And others who LIVE THERE on site in their places, continue to castigate those reports in this forum, and comments in general do so to, and they all decry a lack of equipment as to being the devil that wreacked this fuckery.
And I salute SombreroFallout person for the science. Able bodied and willing to report. Nice work, nice science.
Harumph.
And again, best to all down there, this is and will continue to be, hell for all involved.
My money (as little as it is) went to a member’s list of dobro players, and we’ve got more than a few down there need our help.
There were 14-15 ugly fires, all with gusting Santa Anna’s which overwhelmed ANY local resources on hand . . after that, it’s scramble and struggle and as our Aussie Persiflage said:
“Hold yer ground and prepare in advance.”
After that, it’s bhudda’s fated right hand that determines who survives and who doesn’t.
The real story’s of this issue lie in mama nature, and not in man’s hands. Don’t blame man. Other than for BEING there . . .
But for the incompetence, let’s wait and see how THAT reportage turns out . . at least until the rainy season passes, which if even average, is gonna cause MUCH more damage to come.
Hydro seeding and erosion prevention at this level is not possible by mankind.
Nor were the fires, or the winds.
And it ain’t over yet. Let’s save some humanity for the suffering.
Those of you down there who are safe, it’s a bit early to be accusing who’s to blame for those who are suffering.
Harumph.
larue @ 178, 180 –
Thanks–flattered here.
Biologists’ understanding of these ecological systems have long been established. Urban planners have likewise documented and established the impact of suburban land use patterns on watersheds, vegetative cover, and the cost to taxpayers for extending municipal (& county) services out to the hinterlands. (the next FDL post on teh fire deals with underfunded firefighting agencies at the county level—were they built closer to the urban core, this would at least be less of a problem, though it’s an issue there too)
Planetizen headlines a story this way:
Growth Pushes People Into Fireplace
… referring to a Christian Science Monitor article that gets right to the heart of the story:
California’s age of megafires
CSM seems to give Schwarzenegger too much credit for improvements to the emergency response system, but they got the core story right.
peanutbutter @ 22
Hey Blackwater’s from NC, my home state…how do ya think I feel? Those bastards are fucking up the landscape in a really beautiful part of the state….schmucks!
didja hear about the PR memo blackwater sent out about their interest in cali? Try to spin the situation to make them look better, and didn’t say a damn thing about HELPING fight the fires, or help the people affected by the fires…