Newsweek tell us that Bush and his Merry Bunch of Wingnuts are going apeshit about Dodd’s hold on the FISA bill:
As Democrats squabble, the administration and top Republicans are moving to exploit the issue. They accuse Democrats of sacrificing national security for short-term political gain. “Al Qaeda is not going to give us a break just because we’re having an election,” said Rep. Pete Hoekstra, the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, who demanded last week that Dodd donate to charity any campaign money he raised as a result of his filibuster threat.
“Democrats in disarray” — yes, it’s always good for the Republicans isn’t it. Not quite clear on how getting a bunch of rich telecom executives out from underneath their lawsuits is going to make us all safe from Islamofacism, but that is in fact the hammer they will use to drive this home.
MoveOn claimed credit for the presidential candidates’ opposition to the bill. “This is a great example of progressive voters demanding boldness and principle from Democratic candidates and Democrats responding by being bold,” said spokesman Adam Green. But the maneuvering by the contenders—and the role played by MoveOn—also raised concerns among senior Democrats on Capitol Hill that presidential politics might impede efforts to reach a compromise on such a sensitive and important national-security measure. “We need to get things done on this bill,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid told reporters Tuesday.
Oh yes, Senator Reid, you do. And while we’re at it, let’s discuss what the plan was — before Chris Dodd made his move.
The current FISA bill was due to sunset in February. The Democrats would make some unconvincing noise about concern for civil liberties, rule of law, yadda yadda yadda, but the only part of this bill that deals with national security — the updating of certain technology issues that allow for eavesdropping on foreign-to-foreign calls that are routed through the US — is something that everyone, even Russ Feingold, agrees needs to happen. Nobody is opposing that. A bill like that could pass tomorrow.
But George Bush won’t sign that bill. He’s made it clear he will only sign a bill that gives retroactive telecom immunity, and one can imagine that these telecom fuckers are going to be singing like a flock of canaries about those in the administration who induced them to commit these crimes if they can’t skate on their charges post haste. So they Democrats will argue up until the last minute, and then much like what happened in August, the whole “war on terror” meme will receive a serious right-wing flogging and the Democrats will cave. Or at least enough of them to get 60 votes, which should be no sweat, what with 49 Republicans + Slummy Joe + 6 Democrats on the Intelligence Committee who already gave it a Pasadena.
This isn’t some crystal ball I’m staring into, this is what we’ve been told. By Senate offices themselves. We were told we were just going to have to “live” with this eventuality. And it was all going to go quite smoothly, according to script, until Chris Dodd threw a monkey wrench into things.
Now everyone who has been soaking up all that telecom money, who needed that “war on terra” excuse for their vote, is in a bit of a bind. Is it a coincidence we haven’t heard anything convincing from Hillary Clinton, who took in $87,130 in telecom contributions in the 2006 cycle — more than anyone else currently in the Senate? That makes Jay Rockefeller’s contributions look like abject chicken feed.
Mike McCurry and Jamie Gorelick, who both served in the previous Clinton administration, have been raking in money as telecom lobbyists, and no doubt they’ll have some s’plainin to do if Hillary joins Dodd in his filibuster (Gorelick has been providing “strategic advice” to Verizon about obtaining immunity). But if as Hillary Clinton says she accepts lobbyist money and yet it doesn’t influence her vote, wouldn’t now be a nice time to prove that’s true? By making an unquivocal statement and bring attention to the matter, she could create a groundswell of public support that puts pressure on other Senate Democrats to respect the rule of law.
Then again, maybe that’s the problem.
You can sign the petition to Harry Reid asking him to honor Dodd’s hold here.
Related posts:
- Hey, Harry Reid, Stop Protecting Democrats Who Want to Filibuster the Public Option
- Is Bill Clinton Raising Money for Mike Ross? UPDATED: Yes
- McCain Rediscovers His Passion for Screwing Us with Bad Telecom Policy
- President Clinton to Skip Arkansas Free Clinic, Blames Olbermann for Politicizing Event
- Liz Cheney Rejects DOMA, Applauds Hillary Clinton





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Zed!
dos.
Jane! Go Dodd! Fuck the TelCos!
I told ‘em downstairs.
Here
Mike McCurry is also the Asshat who went on HuffPo with a gibberish post a while back about how meaningless Net Neutrality is and the Telecoms would never do anything such as actually censor anyone.
He can piss up a rope.
$87,000 for HRC?
Jeeze, Jay Rockefeller – bet you feel like a piker now, huh?
Toby Wollin @ 7
lmao!
Egad, Jane, where do you find the time and energy to DO it all??
{{{{{JANE}}}}}
There is a certain deja entendu in Reid’s comment. It reminds me of this other quote of his that I like to trot out in discussions like this.
Reid said this on September 25, 2006, and the bill? It was the infamous Military Commissions Act.
I just signed the petition. Jane, thank you so much to you and the rest of the liberal blogosphere for all the heavy lifting that you are doing.
Has anyone figured out Sheldon Whitehouse’s vote? I look at his contributions and the big corp. money came from law firms and financial groups..didn’t see any major telecom $$. His vote is a real puzzle.
They Bushies want telecom immunity because they know any cases based on the actions of the telecoms will show that they were listening in on everyone, without warrants and in clear violation of the Fourth Amendment and FISA, before 9-11 and after, and knew d*mned well what they were doing. The immunity is to protect them, not the companies.
Jello Jay must be feeling like he sold cheap. HRC sure outbid him. Let’s hope this whole thing catches fire even more, maybe it will force her hand.
this is what I am hoping is the water shed moment that has hilary loose her support, has the other candidates take the lead, and opens the door for gore to step in
I think the only chance the republicans have is if hilary is our candidate, she is already corporate bought and she is no longer going to champion middle class rights above corporate rights
Steve-AR @ 12
i called again this morning. still no answer on his previous two votes.
Steve-AR @ 12
Naive question…have you called his office?
Running back and forth with docs on the heels of David’s cancer diagnosis. WHICH meant I listened to Air America this afternoon. There was some chit-chat about changing leadership in Congress and the Senate in particular. And I believe I heard them discussing the possibility of Dodd in Reid’s position. Frankly, that sounds like a little bit o’heaven to me. Am I delusional?
Holy sh*t Jane! Your writing is spectacular!
Waiting for an HRC reply,
Waiting, waiting, waiting….
Kinda puts her in the hot seat, eh?
I take no glee in dissing HRC. There was a time not so very long ago I would have walked over hot coals for Clinton. It’s not easy admitting you have been a fool. And it looks as though I have been a fool. Prove me wrong Senator. Please.
selise @ 16
It is indeed strange, I’d love to know why. Otherwise he seems fine on these issues.
Elliott @ 8
How much telecom stock does he hold?
marymccurnin @ 22
good question
How much money has Hillary collected from the health care industry?
wrt whitehouse – here’s the comment i wrote after monday’s phone call.
but, itsn’t jane’s point that if clinton would come out against immunity, it would be much harder for other dems in the senate to be in favor of it?
Proof that Hillary’s faux populism is front for whatever the next-gen DLC will be under Clinton Part Deux here it is. She and her effing consultants are so far in the pockets of the telecom lobbyists it’s amazing the can see the sunrise every morning to know when to begin selling their bullshit in the next news cycle.
HRC will not decry the “horrible” telecom industry without either “permission” or a 19-point fully triangulated plan pre-approved, focus-grouped and selectively marketed to make it seem like “she gets it”, then she’ll sadly vote for the telecom industry unless it’s “safe” to vote against them if it looks like the republicans will prevail.
She makes me sick.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
Non illegitimi carborundum, OKK. Besides, HRC’s tactical skills are superb–from that point of view, her campaign has been close to perfect, IMHO. The problem is her triangulation and apparent sellout to the corporate types. No sign of real leadership–it could have been her asking for the hold on FISA (as most firepups have long since realized).
perris @ 15
Hillary the corporate hack is the common wisdom but it is not supported by her Senate voting record. Her Progressive Punch scores are better than 90% voting against corporate interests and 91% for labor interests. Her record of voting against corporate subsidies is 100%, Russ Feingold’s is 66%. I don’t get it. Maybe the Progressive Punch scores are no good..but Howie Klein uses them.
((((JANE))))))
You go girl!!! Our #1 patriot!!
Are you the best, or what!
behindthefall @ 9
There is more than one woman in America who is qualified to be President. I read their blogs…
Tonight is Hillary’s million dollar birthday bash. Sure wish TMZ-style coverage would tell who the big donors in attendance are. I’ve read Gorelick has the inside track for AG in a Clinton administration.
Haven’t we had enough of royalty/dynasty rule around here?
The Edwards campaign is lookin’ better and better.
My view on Senator Clinton is that she is a neocon on Middle East policies. She and Lieberman get much money from the same interests.
Demi @ 17
No..but others have with the same result ?????? I though I would try the digging for data approach..same result???????
Steve-AR @ 28
Steve, a good point, but did she get those numbers by voting on the side of light when she could “safely” do so, i.e. when her vote made no difference? She is getting dissed on this big time because she’s the perceived “Leader” who refuses to well, Lead on this (and other) issues.
If president clinton wasnt above the law why should the telecoms be above the law?
i suppose it’s unfair, but much of the reason i don’t trust senator clinton is because i seem to remember how bill clinton ran as a bit of an economic populist and then governed as a pro-corporate neolib.
i keep looking for signs that senator clinton doesn’t want to do the same thing, and i’m not seeing it.
if she would come out strong against any (retroactive or prospective) immunity, it would be the kind of sign i’ve been looking for. can she throw off her corporate backers to do what is right for the country?
The Cushing Spot price for crude oil closed at $92.81. This was driven by the weekly EIA report yesterday that crude oil stocks declined by 5.3 million bbls last week. It should be noted that this still leaves stocks on the high side of their average. Anyway this sparked a speculative furor. It doesn’t take much these days. Oh, and no, the economy can’t function effectively if crude stays at these levels.
PeterK @ 27
The length of this presidential campaign will be shown to be a detriment to HRC. And, IIRC, she started earlier than anyone. As time goes on, her corporatism will come in full view. Her Republican-lite-ness will be revealed. I, too, wonder about contributions from all the biggies — health care, pharma, insurance, tobacco, energy. I’d be willing to bet the telco contributions will pale in comparison to any one of the aforementioned.
Like sands through the hourglass, so is the ‘08 presidental campaign.
Don’t forget to sign the petition to Harry Reid asking him to honor Dodd’s hold
I will feel sooooo much safer when Fred Thompson is elected:
Prairie Sunshine @ 31
What? Today’s her birthday??
Hugh @ 37
on that happy note, i’ll add that estimates of lost wealth due to the declines (peak to trough) in home prices are 2-8 trillion.
kdh22 @ 38
In love and politics, nothing is certain. So she could indeed fail. But remember, she’s talking mainly to people far less aware of what’s going on than firepups are, and is already positioning herself for the general election. This she does very well, quit a few conservatives have made positive noises about her (and genuinely, I think) without her totally turning off the average dem. That’s part of what I mean by her tactical skills…
Steve-AR @ 28
She’s been shielded in her voting, especially since she declared her desire to become president. In all fairness, most of the candidates have been given cover by their respective parties when it comes to voting in their respective chambers.
Breaking News:
Al Qaeda vows to step up attacks in America unless the telecoms get immunity from Congress.
-GSD
PeterK @ 43
So true, Peterr, on all of your points.
I’m just trying to be hopeful :)
I don’t understand why they don’t pass a FISA bill w/o telcom immunity and call Bush’s bluff. Make him veto it.
Thanks for making me feel welcome the other day, I appreciate it. Let’s see if I can still hang around after my confession that I really and truly do not like Hillary and never have.
It is not that I will not support her: I will. I simply do not like her. The things that she believes in (well, I am not really very sure what these things are and that is the problem.)
To me, living in the forgotten land of Michigan where our best export seems to be the jobs that my country has given away so cheaply and without a fight: I simply do not have a lot of respect for those who would do more of the same.
Whether you call these people corportists or internationalists or exploiters of the poor: their intent is precisely the same; they enhance their wealth on the backs of these least able to complain about it or do anything to confront them. Whether they are Republicans or Democrats seems to matter only in the degree and speed with which this happens.
I dream a world where all people are valued for being people and where everyone who wants to work has the right to a good-paying job with decent benefits and wages sufficient to raise a family. How hard is that? What is wrong with that? Why is that so hard?
GSD @ 45
We can’t be seen as giving in to terrorists!!!
These people seem to hate what this country has been — or at least what we grew up believing it was.
Prairie Sunshine @ 31
Gorelick was Deputy AG during the Clinton Administration. She was on the 9/11 Commission that in retrospect looks increasingly lackluster. She was a big promoter of prison privatization and then she started shilling for the telecoms.
cleter @ 47
Hell, don’t pass a damn thing and let the current mishegas expire so that we’re back to the old FISA law.
All he can do is whine.
For some reason (and believe me, I am NOT a Hillary supporter), I feel compelled to mention that I was touched by Valerie Plame thanking HRC the other day for her help in learning how to deal with the rethug slime machine. That seems a really good-hearted gesture.
Edwards/Obama is okay
Obama/Edwards is okay.
Edwards/Dodd is okay.
Obama/Dodd is okay.
Edwards/Kucinich is okay (I really prefer this one).
Obama/Kucinich is okay.
Hillary? Not okay.
cleter @ 47
Because they are bought and paid for. (That’s not actually what I was thinking but in order to be polite, I rephrased it.)
Steve-AR @ 33
As you’ve said ??? Some people are better on the phones than other, from my experience.
Like, What the F were you f’ing thinking sometimes doesn’t get the expected results.
Not sayin’ you. Just my appraisal of what I’ve seen here, sometimes…not All the time. Just, Sayin’.
DWD @ 48
neoliberals?
Demi @ 56
707!!
Thanks, but one small correction: I’m PeterK, Peterr is somebody else.
Hillary thinks most Democrats have no where to go but to her.
selise @ 42
Americans Turn Negative on Economy, Expect Recession, Poll Says
I dont think even the 1 in 5 give a crap about the terrorist are going to throw a beer party over some lame Congress action/debate.
PeterK @ 53
i think it was joe wilson and not valerie?
PeterK @ 59
So sorry PeterK. Confused you with Rev. Dr. Peterr.
selise,
I really liked your comment above. With intelligent postings like yours, I hardly need to say anything. Nice job.
And, yes, neoliberals (We took the compassion out!) would work.
selise @ 63
I heard her say it. Of course he may have said it some other time as well.
Jo Fish @ 34
Progressive Punch has a category of votes called “Chips are Down” votes..votes that made a difference or could have made a difference..Hillary is at 88% about the middle of the Dems..Obama 78%, Biden 75%, Dodd 74%. What does it mean, I am not sure but I try to find data to support opinion rather opinion to support opinion.
link
dakine01 @ 6
McCurry is full of shit. Just ask Pearl Jam.
Senator Clinton views us as being trapped. Into supporting her. Do you like the feeling of being trapped?
Selise, this one:
Yep.
I don’t have cable but I saw Plame on with Chris Matthews. Matthews actually behaved himself and Plame gave clear, short, and convincing answers. She was also on CNN with Wolf Blitzer. Blitzer dredged up most of the WH talking points dissing her. She handled them well and with grace. By the end, Blitzer despite himself appeared wowed.
Breaking News:
Armed Blackwater guards put out large fire in San Diego by using high powered rifles and defensive driving tactics.
Updates to follow.
-GSD
Hi gang,
Say what you will about Code Pink, but I find the images (blood on your hands) from the Condi confrontation to be stunning. Watch for them during the awards thingy for news photography.
They speak many words.
We are supposed to be a nation of laws and not lobbyists. If the retroactive immunity gets passed, what to stop a company from oh, dumping massive amounts of toxic waste and paying a couple of thousand dollars to get retroactive immunity for their actions? Or having Blackwater pull the same stunt after an “unfortunate incident” with a bunch of protesters?
GSD @ 72
Heh. I knew my research was good for something.
Looking at Plame on “Hardball”. Plame knew at the time that Bush was telling lies about the reasons for why he wanted to got into Iraq. But Hillary and many other Dems didn’t?
Hugh @ 71
I didn’t see Matthews but I thought her interview with Wolf was excellent. There are lots of folks who still believe the WH talking points and it was nice to see her respond to those.
Hugh @ 71
The replay is on right now…
Balrog @ 73
Here is the link: http://www.nytimes.com/slidesh…..index.html
Demi @ 56
What the fuck were you thinking, you fascist pig; that would be me. I do better at sending money..everyone has a niche.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 76
Valerie refused to tell them?
Wow, Ya’ll are dissing HRC, on her Birthday? Fer shame…! ;-)
DWD @ 65
here’s my overly simlistic current world view:
i sorta think that the goals of the neolibs and the neocons are pretty much the same, they just have different tools in their tool boxes.
people see through the neolibs’ nafta/wto/imf and start resisting (see the so-called anti-globalization movement)? then, it’s time for the neocons to start bombing until the neolibs look good by comparison.
good cop / bad cop.
there is a big difference between the two, but they play on the same team and it’s not our team.
Hugh @ 71
She definitely has a head on her shoulders. John Dean nominated her for DNI (IIRC when he was on FDL) the other day.
PeterK @ 79
Thanks Peter! Chilling stuff.
Democratic Senators could take back the national security issue anytime they wanted to.
GSD @ 72
Blackwater is making a habit out of taking credit for avoiding disasters if only they had been there. Erik Prince on Charlie Rose a while back claimed he could have stopped the genocide in Rwanda if only Blackwater had been there.
I’m waiting for him to exploit his fundie tendencies and claim that he could have protected Christ if only he had been there. It’s all kind of goofy, not to mention creepy.
PeterK @ 66
ah, i thought you were referring to her visit here.
for what it’s worth. I’ll repost. Chris Dodd wants us to call Patrick Leahy, Whitehouse et al. I could be wrong, but number one of Dodd’s options sounds easiest. Maybe?
Does anyone still read Newsweak. Another piece of msm garbage.
selise @ 88
I heard her thank HRC on TV, IIRC, tho it might have been on FDL, not sure (am I speaking to your point?)
DWD @ 70
but shouldn’t i judge her on her own record and not because i don’t like the way her husband governed? i think maybe i should… but i just can’t.
Perhaps a person with the courage of Valarie Plame should be the first woman to be elected the leader of this country. I’d vote for this lady to be president in a NY minute.
Does this list seem optimistic?
CTuttle @ 82
Oops, Tomorrow is her B’day… (sorry!)
Hugh @ 71
I didn’t see her on Blitzer, but I have to giggle; it actually looked to me like Chris got a haircut for the occasion of this interview. I was a little (to say the least) surprised at the way he actually seemed to give her book an extra sales nudge. He does do the best at knowing this case, but I think he’s got a little crush again. And she’s such a looker, you can’t really blame him.
Wrong Peter…
Hugh @ 87
and a habit out of creating disasters for having been there…katrina, Iraq come to mind
Balrog @ 73
me too.
love, love, love code pink. and that was a brilliant action, imo.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 93
Really. She’s a conservative. She said Iran has “malevolant” intentions. And that giving faulty nuke blueprints to Iran was a good idea. I’m skeptical. sympathetic. But skeptical.
Balrog @ 73
Hi Balrog!
Yes, I liked that blood confrontation too. Even the WaPo gave it good coverage today.
How’s the Babyrog?
AZ Matt @ 40
ah, those wacky Iraqi kids!
Anyone catch the WaPo today? They had a trifecta. Broder, Novak and Will all on the same day. The dunce, the traitor and the twit.
We are going to bomb Iran soon. Webb on “Hardball” is in effect saying.
Just saw Valerie Plame Wilson on Hardball. What a powerful lesson in what a real public servant can be. And the great loss suffered by all of us when BushCo turned on her.
Seeing her juxtaposed with Hillary [BushCo Lite?] makes me all the more determined to elect a progressive Constitutional Democrat in ‘08.
The segue from the interview with Matthews that showed Bush cackling over World War III/Iran has to be about the creepiest video I can imagine.
Somebody [MoveOn? darkblack?] should string Pete Stark’s original statement with Bush huntin’ for WMD’s and giggling over WW III and who’s gonna stop me and Stark’s forced apology and end with the question, Who the fuck is running the asylum that used to be American government?
perris @ 98
Maybe they could turn it into an ad campaign: Disaster is our business.
mui @ 100
Compared to Clinton, I’ll take Plame. In a heartbeat.
It’s the cover-up, stupid.
With regard to that upcoming “last minute” timing for the next Congressionally-endorsed round of Constitution dismantling:
Steny Hoyer laid out the House schedule for the rest of the year today:
1. The House will take Thanksgiving week off. [The Senate will take the last two weeks of November off - starting November 16th.]
2. The House will be in session the first Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of December. They hope to then leave town for the remainder of the month, but they will leave the second week’s Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday open for ‘contingencies’ (meaning getting the next Continuing Resolution passed, to ensure that the violence in Iraq can continue unabated through the holiday season and beyond).
3. The House will then evidently be out of session for the last two weeks of December (as will the Senate, presumably).
4. The House will reconvene in 2008 on January 15, for the first time.
5. Hoyer plans to bring the Peru Free Trade Agreement to the House floor the week of November 5th.
6. Not a word was said about scheduling a vote to enforce the outstanding, because violated and defied, Congressional subpoenas, via action on the pending (for three months) Contempt of Congress Judiciary Committee report to the full House.
7. The House FISA bill has not yet been scheduled for a reappearance on the floor – but it may possibly reappear next week though it’s not yet on the announced agenda.
8. Hoyer stated that he would be bringing no new initiatives to the House floor after November 16th: everything will be wrap-up of previous action, such as Conference Report votes on all the appropriations bills still outstanding and another Continuing Resolution, etc. Thus FISA in the House will reappear before 11/16 or else not until after mid-January, if he holds to that claim.
Here’s the Senate Intelligence Committee’s new version of FISA [even quickly scanning its different sections helps provide a grasp of the broad and sweeping scope of the immunity provisions which this bill contains and in fact focuses on - detailed, comprehensive provisions that were undoubtedly written by other than those holding office or working for those who hold office in our federal legislature]:
http://intelligence.senate.gov/071019/fisa.pdf
Oklahoma kiddo @ 76
here’s what bugs me.
we were also told a bunch of lies by the bush 41 administration about the reason to attack iraq the first time. but, all joe wilson does is praise bush 41 and that action.
bush 43 tells a bunch of lies to justify an attack and all of a sudden it’s wrong to lie us into war? what changed?
selise @ 99
I get a vicarious thrill to tell you the truth. I love outspoken people.
Marcus Aurelius @ 54
Rahm Emanuel was Obama’s mentor in Illinois. Do I like Obama-not so much. Too conservative. He hangs out with people who promote homophobia.
Anybody else wondering if Reid is suffering from early-stage dementia? He was a boxer, after all.
Of course, he was a Mormon before that, so never mind.
mui @ 100
She thinks that spooks can really do something, know something, whereas the record is pretty definitively to the contrary. So I would eliminate her as a leader on the basis of her extreme naivite.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 104
If the radicals start another war of aggression the question has to be asked “What is the response of the people?” Marching on Washington and the corporate headquarters of the MSM with torches and pitchforks or merely more intensive blogging?
mui @ 89
what does Stark say?
selise @ 99
I thought the picture with Condi was truly chilling – it was if she were in a completely different dimension.
oddmommy @ 101
He’s a good boy. I like him.
selise @ 110
Yeah he praises Bush 41. Reading his book, I remember he wrote that he sent copious documents faxed to DC about Hussein’s Kuwait intentions. No Answer from Bush. Hmmm. What does that all mean. Is that a competent 41? Is it policy not to respon to the embassy, give them direction when a war is about to start.
But oh well, father knows best I guess.
[Edit} I still think Joe Wilson is kinda cute.
eCAHNomics @ 114
Ditto.
Veritas78 @ 113
I’m very concerned with Barbara.
selise @ 63
Correct, that was Joe Wilson.
mui @ 100
FWIW, she’s a dem. Clearly not super liberal, but as far as Iran’s intentions, maybe they really are malevolent–it’s not so easy to be sure, and besides the country does not speak with a single voice. In addition, she has some first-hand knowledge re WMDs in Iran, that is what she was working on in the CIA. On Blitzer (I think it was) she urged people to be skeptical of calls to attack Iran, reminding them of what was said before the war with Iraq.
punaise @ 102
Why can’t they do something responsible like looking for trophy wives?
Please understand. I am not a blanket liberal. On matters of foreign adventures, deficit spending and violent crime to name three, I am a conservative. And I am a radical conservationist when it comes to the health of our planet.
/de-lurk
“…And it was all going to go quite smoothly, according to script, until Chris Dodd threw a monkey wrench into things…”
Perhaps someone has already done this and I just didn’t see it, but: I’m
finding myself having a hard time predicting what the next few probable
moves are in this business. Sometimes I feel like I can guess what might
come next after one thing or another happens, but really not so much in this
case.
So I’m hoping that someone with better skills and vision can try to outline
what some of the possible next events might be… If Dodd et al are
successful in their course of trying-to-do-the-right-thing, what will the counter-move be, and then what? If we just see lots more fail instead, like
it seems has been happening, what comes next?
Perhaps I’m just not reading carefully and I need to be pointed at the right resource. Or perhaps I am just being very clueless right now and need to wake up a bit… I just know that when I try to guess what might happen next, and then what might happen next after that over the
whole telecom immunity thing I’m not coming up with much. If there’s anyone
out there who feels like diagramming some next likely moves (or pointing me in a good direction) I’d be
grateful.
mui @ 100
joe wilson has convinced me that i don’t agree with his politics at all. but that doesn’t stop me from being grateful for his work to reveal the lies of this administration and to have sympathy for what he and especially valerie have been through.
Balrog @ 118
:)
:)
:)
Valerie Plame Wilson is a courageous person and was an honorable public servant but she was a part of an “intelligence” agency that is/was incompetent at best. They overestimated the strength of the Soviet Union, were compromised by one of their own assets, susceptible to political pressures and everyone knows about their public take on WMD.
SteveAR
What???
You put your money where your mouth is?
(mmmmm….we girls like those boys, yep.)
And I am extremely conservative when it comes to government corruption, lying by public officials and hatred of ol’ boyism.
PeterK @ 123
Understood. But please, I can’t believe she thought giving false blueprints (that could be corrected by the right person) to Iran was a good idea. That is horrible judgment in my view. And “malevolant”. Is that a good description of any country that is complicated as Iran?
Balrog @ 121
I personally like that a few of the Reps from CA have come out and blasted DiFi over the Southwick vote. Sounds like some of them might be willing to support a primary challenge to DiFi in 2012 if she doesn’t retire.
Bluetoe @ 129
Here, here!
Bluetoe @ 129
Do you know what CIA stand for? ;-)
eCAHNomics @ 114
I don’t think that’s quite right. What I heard her say (and let me know if you heard something else, I certainly haven’t followed all her appearances nor read her book) was that the pols need to be given hard, unvarnished intelligence, not cherry-picked or influenced by what they want to hear. That’s right on, IMO. The problems come more with what is done with the intelligence than with those who gather it, I believe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
OK, think you’ve got it backwards. Those are liberal values. Conservatives could care less about lying, corruption and thrive on cronyism. They always have and always will. It’s the only way they can survive.
peanutbutter @ 122
I think Joe & Valerie want positions in the next administration and are assuming HRC is the likely next Preznit. Ouch.
selise @ 127
Ah selise, it’s understood we’re sympathetic. N’est ce pas? And I think Wilson is cute as hell. I just think he’s a little too conservative for my tastes, that is if I could steal him frm Val, which is probably next to impossible.
BTW. I posted Dodd’s list above. Do you think there’s a chance with the intelligence commtte?
pow wow @ 109 –
thank you pow wow! that is very helpful
1) the senate judiciary committee has scheduled a fisa hearing for next wednesday:
2) do you mean to imply that the senate intelligence bill might have been written by, gasp!, the telcos?
Bluetoe @ 103
Well at least they didn’t add Kraphammer to that list. Three is way more than I can stomach in one day. Four would have made me very sick.
Bluetoe @ 137
I don’t have anything backwards related to this. I am speaking from the perspective of what should be done about these types. Perhaps I wasn’t clear on that.
mui @ 132
Please don’t forget, the ability to design a working nuclear device has been out in the public domain for over twenty years.
It was in the early 80s IIRC, that a competent college physics student (Junior class), not at MIT or a big tech university, designed a workable nuclear device purely on his own research.
Having the ability to procure the material and equipment however is not as easily done.
PeterK @ 136
My bold. That’s exactly what I mean. She seems to think that the CIA possess hard, unvarnished intelligence. I think that’s ludicrous. All that Cheney et al did was bias the intelligence more than usual.
The structural problem with the spook business is that it is secret. There is no accountability. Thus CIA agents are free to be lazy or wrong or stupid, or any other bad thing, and pay no consequences. Now, like most employees, most CIA employees are reasonably dilligent workers. But they have no upside for being right (and have an outright downside if being right means going against their boss), and no downside for being wrong. So what kind of product do you expect we get?
In fact, it’s worse than that. There’s a real moral hazard in the spook business, because every failure is used as an excuse for higher budgets. I have nothing but contempt for the CIA, NSA and all the other alphabets of secrecy.
I admire the Wilson’s for standing up to W, but I do not admire her in her professional capacity.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 141
Too bad they don’t have a “WaPo Select” like the NYT used to, so only those foolish enough to pay could read them, and the rest of us would be spared the horror of linking to one of their articles by mistake (thanks TRex!).
Which of the declared and perhaps undeclared Demo candidates for president has a perfect liberal/progressive record?
And to help understand what is at stake here, beneath the covering rhetoric and the “state secrets,” here’s some key background detail and Congressional verification about this spying being conducted without any meaningful oversight by the Executive Branch and its corporate partners on the communications of Americans in America:
The PAA and the RESTORE Act (and now the Senate Intelligence Committee FISA bill) are about “Link Analysis” and the “largest database ever assembled in the world” – as indirectly confirmed by the House Judiciary Committee’s report on RESTORE, which cited the following two news articles as describing activity that the RESTORE Act would permit:
Http://www.usatoday.com/news/w…..-nsa_x.htm
Http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09…..nted=print
From the House Judiciary Committee report on RESTORE, released October 12, 2007:
Http://www.rules.house.gov/110…..iciary.pdf
Again: This is not about the ‘foreign to foreign on a U.S. wire’ problem that has been used as justification for these revisions/eviscerations of FISA – that issue is separately addressed and resolved in RESTORE (under Section 105A). This is a brand new world of spying being authorized by Congress against innocent Americans (under Section 105B) without any meaningful Judicial Branch check. New corporate and government spying authority which is being accompanied by a simultaneous effort, by Robber Baron Rockefeller & Friends (to hold immune from lawsuits the cooperating corporations), which would block off Judicial Branch review to prevent the Supreme Court from having an opportunity to rule that these spying authorities openly violate the Fourth Amendment.
This is collusion between the Executive and Legislative Branches of government to end-run the Constitution, and to try to avoid any check from the Judicial Branch which would stop and reverse this deliberate invasion of our privacy and knowing violation of our Constitution. If Members of Congress could be impeached, on this issue the American people would easily convict those complicit in this collusion, and would throw them out of office with the contempt they have so thoroughly earned.
[selise @ 140, #1) - Thank You; #2) - Why, yes I do…]
Chris Cilliza has an interesting column about Edwards.
Check it out
Prairie Sunshine @ 105
“World War III and who’s gonna stop me?” Did I miss something?! Where was that?!
No wonder I feel as though it is the Cuban Missile Crisis all over again — only worse!
dakine01 @ 143
mmm. yeah. But I think this was a genuine Russian design of some sort. Not that I know anything about different devices, but I assume different designs are feats of engineering. That is, if she was in on the same operation James Risen refers to, and to me that seems likely.
marymccurnin @ 112
Lieberman was the Senator Obama chose to be his mentor.
“But the maneuvering by the contenders—and the role played by MoveOn—also raised concerns among senior Democrats on Capitol Hill that presidential politics might impede efforts to reach a compromise on such a sensitive and important national-security measure. ‘We need to get things done on this bill,’ Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid told reporters Tuesday.”
No, Harry, you don’t “need” to get jack-fucking-shit done on this bill; you need to resist the urge to continue to be hypnotized by the Administration and its enablers.
And you need to stop making arguments like this: “I was *going* to grease the skids for capitulation in the dark. Now that it’s light, I can’t acknowledge pressure works. So I have to grease the skids for capitulation, and *NOW* it’s *YOUR* fault!” because it makes you and your party sound pusillanimous.
Three cheers for passive-aggressive “leadership”…
Only hitch is, someone else has to lead them.
TeddySanFran @ 151
Ah yea Gads. So he said at that dinner too I think where he was booed by CT Dems. I totally felt betrayed by Obama at that moment.
How many here or elsewhere have withstood the pressure that Plame has? I will never come close to it. Thank God.
Richmond @ 138
ding
OT: President’s visit snarls traffic for RB returnees
Hugh @ 71
Yes.
IMVHO, she passed up numerous opportunities to thank Jane, Christy, Marcy, and many others, but, she really handled herself well. ICYMI, Dean’s comment in her chat here, that she’s got what it takes to assume a top intelligence role in the next Administration, was on target imo.
mui @ 139
*g* i though joe was cuter before the sestak thread where i discovered i didn’t like his politics. strangely i can only be objective about the external stuff when i don’t know a person. a little bit of knowledge and i can’t see through my own biases.
i have no idea what our chances are with the judiciary committee. mostly because i don’t have a clue what jane/matt/glenn have up their sleeves. looks like a very difficult road ahead – we need to hold all the dems (including difi) and specter. whitehouse’s votes for immunity in the intelligence committee have me worried – why the heck did he do that? but, if senator clinton comes down strongly against immunity? then i think anything is possible.
but i really suck at seeing the political levers and strategy. jane, on the other hand, is, i think, brilliant on that.
mui @ 134
Just chiming in: FWIW, I’ll take incompetent intelligence work WITH civil rights vs. imcompetent intelligence work WITHOUT civil rights. I mean, if I can still vote on that…
On “Hardball”. Matthews and the rest are saying that the Democrats have “annointed” Hillary.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 160
I have only one word: shitballs.
I wish the big talking heads would let the voters decide and tell the THs who WE want instead of vice versa. I’m sick of being told what to think.
eCAHNomics @ 144
Cheney et al did more than just bias it a bit. Her husband is a good example, his intelligence was fine. How good the rest of the CIA work is I don’t know, and I don’t see how you can judge the quality of her CIA work since it’s secret. But more generally, there are two problems:
(1) keeping up the quality of the intelligence (as you say) and
(2) insulating it from political pressure.
dakine01 @ 143
you must be referring to a uranium device (not plutonium)? i thought the flawed plans were for a plutonium device (which is supposed to be a much harder design).
where’s prof foland?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 141
ah, but Krautie shall arise from his crypt to horrify us TOMORROW…..
Hate to admit it, but I’ve come to know what their “sked” is. Though there are always a few pleasant surprises, like the occasional half page column from Henry Kissinger.
WHY isn’t he dead yet, again??
I hope I’m wrong, Jane, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Hillary Clinton to climb down from the place you’ve put her with this very public pressure. If she ignores you, she retains that telecom love and money, and she shows the general election voters that she won’t be intimidated by a bunch of hippies in pajamas. If she joins the filibuster, she leaves an opening for Rudy to talk about how she does what said hippies tell her to do, and she still doesn’t get any love from us because she’s so late to the party.
Having said that, keep it up.
oddmommy @ 164
god only knows
selise @ 163
I suppose we could always google
If I was the next Democratic president, I’d consider giving positions to the Wilsons. John Dean too. After I gave him a pardon.
Is it just me, or does a five figure bribe from a huge corporation feel like chump change?
Susan in Iowa @ 165
Susan, think about what you’re saying. It’s called “triangulation”.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 168
It will have to be Hillary. The Wilsons are supporting her.
do-si-do @ 161
Ain’t that the truth.
I’m very concerned that the Telco’s are calling in favors all over Silicon valley. Cisco systems is one of the Telco’s biggest suppliers. Where is Jobs/Apple? Where is Gates/MS? Where is Google? Software and hardware manufacturer’s are going to follow the big dogs.
If anyone knows of ways to wake up Cisco, Apple, MS, Google and the other “big dogs,” we need them to step up big time.
Susan in Iowa @ 171
I’ve heard that.
selise @ 158
Achem. He has said that he likes Chuck Hagel really early on. I thought that was a definte and clear signal.
Yes, what is Whitehouse’s issue. For that matter what are the issues of any of the dems marked “maybe” on that list?
Regardless of who the Wilsons support, I would urge President Dodd (for example) to consider Plame and her husband for positions in a Dodd administration.
FYI, new post
I don’t care for Joe’s politics nor Valerie’s as best I can determine. They’re republican and believe in US hegemony in the world.
Further, I don’t trust anyone who worked for the CIA. Why? Because it’s been common knowledge since Even before Philip Agee that the CIA was into some really nasty stuff, ASIDE from intel gathering. And there was this spanking back in the last century by the Church Commission and they said we’ll behave we won’t do black ops. But that was a lie of course. And anyone who works for the CIA knew it better than the average citizen sucker.
So ValGal worked for the same group which ran extraordinary rendition, torture and all sorts of nasty black ops, trained OBL recently deposed Aristide and so forth. How do you work for such a creepy organization,l knowing what they do and say nothing? You do it because you accept that disgusting behavior as part of the intel game.
Anyone who works for them is a compromised person. Same for Larry Johnson. They may have honor but they have no judgment or ethics as far as I’m concerned.
And supplying fake nuke plans is not the way to stop nuke proliferation. The way to do it is to lobby the present nuke powers to disarm and disavow first use… as the USA refuses to do.
Val, I hate to say is more a part of the problem than the solution. She didn’t deserve to be treated as she was, because she was doing her job and minding her business. But I really wish that she would work on the US anti proliferation.
So now she and Joe are dems because the learned how the repukes are. Hey I coulda told them that 25 years ago, or more. I’ll bet Larry Johnson is also a fallen repuke.
Can you trust these type of people? Why?
PeterK @ 162
I for one am just skeptical. 1) the use of the word malevolance to describe Iran’s intentions strikes me as lacking at least verbally in circumspection. (2) the nuke blueprints given to Iran. (3) If (2) is true, how can one say (1) while knowing that the CIA has possibly contributed to the “malevolance.”
pow wow @ 147 –
i hope jane sees your analysis.
Since I have never worked in the Federal government, much less the CIA, perhaps I just flat don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to the Wilson’s.
mui @ 153
Correction: I mean HoJoe got booed.
The CIA clearly causes more problems than it solves.
It’s part of the MIC, part of the whole paranoia noise machine that there’s a big bad world out there and we need to protect ourselves from.
But the CIA installs unpopular leaders and so it creates unrest around the world and then says we need to worry about some american puppet being toppled and so we have to spy and infiltrate and do some false flags here and there to gather public support.
The CIA inflitrates the press, they are planting stories, lies, doing assassinations. READ PHILP AGEE.
Anyone who works for the CIA is damaged goods. They buy into the mission statement and the operational statement.
We don’t need secrecy, we need demilitarization… and respect of human rights and democracy.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 181
You may actually be smarter than the average fed. Think about it. I think Wilson is a smart man, but there were some gaping holes in his book that I wondered about, LIKE he does not address GeorgeI lack of response to the embassy’s intelligence. Seems like GeorgieI just kinda left the American embassy to their own resources without any input whatsoever. That is the impression I got from his book.
eCAHNomics @ 144
I agree that “hard, unvarnished intelligence” is a misnomer. Unvarnished intelligence means raw intelligence, which is mostly soft and squishy rather than hard. Where the CIA earns its pay, really, is in evaluating information sources with a balanced, informed professionalism. Cheney and the neocons didn’t want that. They were alchemists at taking soft and squishy raw intelligence, and make it look hard and unvarnished.
We just can’t do without competent, professional evaluators to sift and winnow the raw intelligence into coherent form. The real problem is how to keep that evaluation process untainted by bias, and that’s next to impossible, because knowledge is power.
I can’t think of any way to fix the CIA (or the NSA, or whatever they’re calling the Big Tent Intelligence thing now.) We could make the CIA independent, and staff it with civil servants, but that won’t prevent insiders– or outsiders– from stacking the deck. The Supreme Court is supposed to be independent, too, right?
And before anyone gets too enthusiastic about an independent CIA, please do study the ISI, the Pakistani equivalent of the CIA. Whoever heads the ISI is as powerful, arguably, as Musharraf is. Maybe more so. And he probably knows where Bin Laden is, or how to find out. And he won’t share that info with Dick Cheney unless he wants to.
Bob in HI
SanderO @ 183
Bravo.
America is not the best country… we don’t have the best and everyone is not dying to come here, but many can’t support themselves because of the repressive nature of unfettered free market capitalism which thrives on a huge peasant class, which struggles to survive and will work for nothing.
Capitalists, with the CIA and the US military are taking the world’s markets and resources and the people are no different that the soil they till or the seeds they plant… completely expendable.
SanderO @ 183
i tried to hint at some of this in my question (during the book salon visit) about what reforms we should consider… but my question wasn’t one she addressed. :(
Boo Radley @ 173
What do you want them to do?
SanderO @ 187
Quite frankly spook types always struck me as scumbags. Like you ever been abroad and seen some guy who turns out to be American, who’s got some sort of special clearance, and they sit that person next to you . . . And then you ask your self at that point, why do some of the freakiest Americans work abroad for the gov.? Is this how we want to be represented.
My bold. Ha ha ha. When has the CIA EVER exhibited balanced informed professionalism? On the action front, they’re always overthrowing some govt or another in secret, or conducting proxy wars. On the analalytical front, anyone can outperform them using open source information. The problem they have is all around turning points. So they never catch game-changing events like the fall of communism. It’s a common analytical mistake. (Believe me, after 30 years on Wall St. I know this error when I see it.) It’s baked in the cake in a bureaucracy, because no one will go out on a limb to forecast such an event, no matter how definitive the tea leaves are.
eCAHNomics @ 191
Charlie don’t blog…
As usual Jane you are right on the money. You and Christy and your FDL team are making a great contribution to American democracy.
OK I admit I’m a bit left of center. The deal is that the system we have could work with some honest people who were not using our government as a cash cow and a way to control money, markets and people. WE are the government, but we are now afraid of and abused by the government. It has been taken over and turned against our interests.
It is filled through and through with ideologues of every weird stripe who don’t understand democracy, human rights and the basic goals our the constitution and the bill of rights.
We need a serious house cleaning and we need to get all the people in government to study the constitution for a few months before they take office and no multiple choice tests either.
And I confess I knew Jamie Gorelick when she was a teenager. Our families were close. Who would have known she would be such a corporate shill.
No moral compass. None whatsoever.
Hill as pres and Jamie as AG?
Lovely
My letter to Hillary:
Senator Clinton,
Recently our government and certain telecom companies conspired to share private customer information, a violation of the telecom companies’ agreements with their customers, federal law and the fourth amendment of the US Constitution.
Other candidates for President have spoken out against plans to offer the telecom companies – the co-conspirators – immunity for their illegal actions. Please add your important voice to those who demand adherence to the rule a law, the foundation of our country.
Thank you for your time and service to our nation.
Smapdi
selise @ 140
Open Society Institute is George Soros’ foundation isn’t it?
I would expect OSI to be testifying about the importance of the rule of law.
Boo Radley @ 173
Cisco’s CEO supports McCain, and did fundraising for Bush 04. On those facts I’d think Cisco is unlikely to get involved.
P J Evans @ 13
I’m surprised your observation didn’t get more attention. I believe it is correct. Actually the telco’s cooperation with the government may antedate Bush. That would account for Dems favoring retroactive immunity also.
i just read the post but not the comments, but i bet everyone thought the same thing – everyone who received telecom money should donate it to charity.
This isn’t just about the telcos, more importantly the amnesty applies to Bush & collaborators.
Seriously EPU’d, but I don’t want to drop this into Kirk’s thread.
Can we get any of the Dems to use ’soft on crime’ against the ‘Publicans on this?
It’s a really good fit for what immunity would do, and it hits them with a meme they themselves used to great (not necessarily good) effect.
Jane, once again, you are awesome!
Just an aside, that has to be the most complimentary pic of Senator Clinton I’ve ever seen.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
A perpetual question for every politician is whether they can take the money and vote against that special interest.
Put another way, the question is whether they can find a way to vote for the national interest or for the People, rather than narrow special interests.
DWD @ 48
Sounds good to me. Hillary has said she was virtually a co-president with Bill. I wonder if she also takes credit for NAFTA.
nwithers @ 74
We need a government, not an auction house.
eCAHNomics @ 114
I doubt she’s naive about Iran and non-proliferation. But, she might be one of those geeky types who are so focused on their specialty that they miss other things.
I suspect Iran is a diverse country in many ways and there are some elements who wish to blow Israel off the planet and those are the people VPW was focused on.
That doesn’t mean the country is either the devil or neutral or an angel. We have our share of all those traits too.
I like the Wilson’s for their service, their commitment and their intelligence and grace under fire. It doesn’t mean I wouldn’t scrutinize them thoroughly in a political situation. Trust, but tie your camel.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 133
Hey, ya can’t be a rabble-rouser without some rabble.
Are any of the CA reps, aside from Lee, noteworthy candidates for that Senate seat?
mui @ 184
This criticism of Wilson is similar to the criticism of Edwards (for his performance in the debate with Darth). These are people who are intelligent and are used to playing by the rules with other intelligent people who also have some morality and character. They just didn’t expect to be stabbed in the back and lied to. They weren’t used to trying to work with Bushies.
So, don’t criticize either of them so much. Hey, there’s a lot of other Americans who have learned the hard way about Bush via the Iraq war and all these national disasters (NOLA Katrina, Milwaukee bridge, SD fires, etc.).
Live and learn….and fight back.
Balrog @ 85
The one woman who rapidly approached Condi with bloodied hands is lucky the Secret Service didn’t pump a few clips into her in automoatic mode.
This was an ABYSMAL attempt of protest, and completely out of place.
The place is in the streets . . . what Code Pink did today is different somehow, from what they’ve done in the past in various chambers.
It just seems all wrong. And pretty kabuki and stupid.
They could spend time organizing folks for STREET protests.
And demand WE all show up.
And do us all better. IMHO.
Hat’s off to Code Pink though, early on they were there when no one else was . . .
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
Hoss, those are VERY progressive issues, and stances. And dear to THIS Larue’s heart.
Liberal, and progressive, as I see them.
Opposed by conservatives, and radical right wingers.
Ok, even the CENTRISTS are radical right and opposed to most of the proressive issues you and I support . . .
N that’s why I prefer liberal and progressive, to describe myself.
For the masses, for the planet. And peace where possible, if not, we gotta fight for it like NorskeFlameThrower keeps sayin . . .
She’ll say anything to get the nomination. Americans cannot trust Hillary Clinton.
perris @ 15
Are you kidding? Rupert Murdock isn’t throwing her fund raisers for nothing. Do you think Willie passed media consolidation for free? DLC Dems, stupid women, and corporate Republicans are supporting Hillary, just like they did/do Lieberman. She is actively courting moderate Republicans and their females and doing a heck of a job Brownie! Hillary has been “picked” by the corporate crowd and their fully owned subsidiary, Congress. We don’t have free and democratic elections and anybody who thinks we do is a fool. The fix is in, and Hillary is your next CEO whether anyone votes for her or not.
MarkH @ 210
You’re right. I should be more balanced in my criticism. But that’s the devil’s advocate in me gone wild.
Again, Firedoglake needs to take a good hard look at “consulting” companies like The Glover Park Group. They are lobbyists and image makers for the likes of Verizon and AT&T, and they are part of Hillary’s top campaign staff (WOLFSON). Without looking at these apparent connections and built in contradictions all those who believe in progressive government are being manipulated and blinded by “the message” these Washington admen/lobbyists are shaping and feeding the flock of sheep better known as Americans – Republican and Democrat alike.
jogger @ 216
Nice.