Let’s hope we see some backbone today.

…and if he’s so ignorant as to not know what waterboarding entails, is he qualified to be attorney general?

Good morning Christy!

Hi Christy, Saw somewhere on the tubes this am that Specter wrote him a letter also

I think he needs to try it. I don’t mean this as a threat. I saw a TV reporter try it so that he could understand it better.

Damn this need for a job that gets in the way of my watching hearings!

CHS, OT for a moment, finally got to watch the Dodd video where he answered questions. Massive thanks to Jane and the FDL team for making that possible. It was so wonderful to see a leader answering questions, not dodging, and speaking in complete, *coherent* sentences. I hope FDL can do more of that thing. I’m just sorry I couldn’t participate live.

Now, to go burn up some cell phone minutes.

Rice and the Repugs are going to stay on sanctions on Iran and try to keep the other stuff out of the headlines.

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

Leinie, It was fantastic! I don’t know how expensive that was to do, but if it wasn’t too bad, I hope FDL can use the format more often.

In the last 2 weeks I’ve had my questions really answered by John Dean and Chris Dodd. It certainly makes me feel that my voice is heard.

You mean Feinstein even signed it? Did somebody kidnap her and replace her with an impostor?

Leinie at 6 — The technology is really amazing, isn’t it? Jane deserves serious kudos for arranging that one. :)

Morning, Christy…

Morning, all…

dmg @ 8

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

And why don’t the dems use this strategy against the president’s vetoes? Don’t pass this bill, and the next one will be worse.

GeorgeSimian @ 7

Rice and the Repugs are going to stay on sanctions on Iran and try to keep the other stuff out of the headlines.

Ignore the million people burned out of San Diego. Iran might be scary in 10 years! Run!

Our nation is losing its grip. Losing its grip on privacy, liberty, justice, fairness and democracy. We need to work harder than believed possible. Good morning! From a country school, somewhere in southwestern Oklahoma.

TJ @ 13

dmg @ 8

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

And why don’t the dems use this strategy against the president’s vetoes? Don’t pass this bill, and the next one will be worse.

you’ll have to ask them. because i’ve been down with exactly that tactic from the start of this congress.
i think we have to acknowledge that to some indeterminate degree, the dems are complicit in the bush administration’s looting of the country.

MN USA — Marty has some great commentary on that, with the theory being that Mukasey didn’t want to back himself into a legal corner from plausible deniability, since the OJC has issued opinion after opinion that it doesn’t constitute torture on quite shaky legal grounds. (Marty’s whole piece is excellent and worth a full read, btw, as always.) Which makes calling him on this all the more important — either he is an independent, committed to the rule of law kind of guy…or he should not be the next AG.

Good Morning Christy!

“If Mukasey now does not publicly agree that waterboarding is unlawful, could (principled) Dems who signed a letter such as this really vote for him?”

That really is a good question and I am going to ask them.

Question about the SJC – did we ever get confirmation on how Sheldon Whitehouse voted on retroactive immunity?

He’s one my adopted Senators (cuz if Craig were yours, you’d throw him back too) and I’m SERIOUSLY disappointed if that is the case.

Want to have my facts straight before I call him.

I’ll call. But what can we really expect from Feinstein at this point? After what she pulled on Southwick?

I believe that Mukasey is nothing more than a right wing neocon political hack.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 17

either he is an independent, committed to the rule of law kind of guy…or he should not be the next AG.

and this time it would nice to find this out before confirming him for the job.

fingers crossed. it isn’t over unless we capitulate.

Biodun @ 20

I’ll call. But what can we really expect from Feinstein at this point? After what she pulled on Southwick?

We can expect betrayal and support for pResident 25%, of course.

leinie at 19 — Nope, no clarification on that yet…

The Democratic leadership team continues to ignore the people.

Justice? What’s that?

TJ @ 5

I think he needs to try it. I don’t mean this as a threat. I saw a TV reporter try it so that he could understand it better.

Even though unpleasant, it’s a little different undergoing something when you are certain that you’re not going to be killed than when you don’t know. One of the sustaining things for soldiers in boot camp is that they are pretty sure the drill instructors will be in trouble if the actually let trainees die.

I thought Spector had signed onto the letter demanding an explaination of waterboarding.

Plus: Isn’t Mukasey Schumer’s guy? (Pace: looseheadprop)

I still don’t see what’s the rush for a new AG.. we can do without an AG until we can get a real president into the WH

As some have noted earlier:

The US announced sweeping sanctions against Iranian institutions and banks today after it accused Tehran of supporting terrorism and trying to acquire nuclear weapons.

The US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, insisted today it had “no quarrel” with the Iranian people, but she made it clear that Washington blames Tehran for supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan, Shia militants in Iraq, and Hamas and Hizbullah.

Where are we going with this? Shouldn’t my party be doing something?

Bush World:

If you are the one administering the waterboarding, it is not torture. It is only torture if you are receiving the treatment.

I expect Mukasey will follow a similar rationale.

Mukasey is Lieberman’s guy.

O/T — LIVE RIGHT NOW:

streaming LIVE windows
video of waxman taking rice
down on iraq, blackwater and
rampant embassy construction
contract corruption, appearing
in an open window. . .

mukasey must admit that water-
boarding torture. period. full
stop. the geneva conventions apply
to all these detainees — full stop.

great stuff, as ever, chs!

Condi’s being sworn in by Henry

Whitehouse up on CSPAN3

Librarian @ 10

You mean Feinstein even signed it? Did somebody kidnap her and replace her with an impostor?

It’s called PR. I think it’s pretty disgusting that things have gotten to the point that our elected officials can play this Jekyl & Hyde routine with us with relative immunity. Nobody currently in Congress needs her feet held to the fire more than Feinstein, yet she thinks she redeems herself by signing a letter like this, or some other nebulous gesture. Anything with no teeth, she’s for. The minute something has anything in it like consequences for wrongdoing, she won’t do it. She was willing to let her questions be used against Carol Lam, but later claimed she was on Lam’s side. With friends like Feinstein, you don’t need enemies.

I thought Feinstein told someone she would not vote for Southwick? Wonder what happened?

Not all neocons are Republican.

saber rattling….. it’s a great diversion. From what I can see, the Iranians didn’t even do anthing specific to escalate the situation this time. This is just more smoke from a fire of our own creation… from when we designated them (yesterday) something bad or other. This is really quite Orwellian.

CSPAN3 Realplayer live feed

Christy Hardin Smith @ 11

Leinie at 6 — The technology is really amazing, isn’t it? Jane deserves serious kudos for arranging that one. :)

Jane also deserves kudos for that three way debate between herself, Scarecrow, & Digby the other day. That was really a good idea! Congrats!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 38

Not all neocons are Republican.

I’d describe it differently.. there’s neocons and there’s cowards for, to paraphrase Yeats “lack all conviction while the worst” prevail. The cowards are in our party. The DiFi’s of the world just lack the conviction to lead. The neocon’s want to rule.

I think there is a very real possibility that the United States will attack Iran. Sooner or later.

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

They already fixed this through the back end, the interim AG is a filthy offensive wingnut, I forget the asshole’s name. If you don’t confirm this jerk, well, we really have an animal to run the show if you confirm no one.

Meanwhile, before her date with Henry’s committee this morning, Condi took some sweet time out to announce new sanctions against Iran.

According to Naomi Klein’s new book “The Shock Doctrine”, waterboarding is comparatively benign. OK it’s not, but they do much worse stuff. It began with that guy in Canada doing research for the CIA. Sensory deprivation for extended periods then loud lights and music. Can be permanently disorienting. You go crazy and you don’t come back.

Talking about degrees of torture marks our nation as deranged with little hope of change from the people who joined the president in his walk down this slippery slope.

TJ @ 9

Leinie, It was fantastic! I don’t know how expensive that was to do, but if it wasn’t too bad, I hope FDL can use the format more often.

In the last 2 weeks I’ve had my questions really answered by John Dean and Chris Dodd. It certainly makes me feel that my voice is heard.

I missed this, but this was a live video cast? Were/are there any transcripts available?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 31

As some have noted earlier:

The US announced sweeping sanctions against Iranian institutions and banks today after it accused Tehran of supporting terrorism and trying to acquire nuclear weapons.

The US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, insisted today it had “no quarrel” with the Iranian people, but she made it clear that Washington blames Tehran for supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan, Shia militants in Iraq, and Hamas and Hizbullah.

Where are we going with this? Shouldn’t my party be doing something?

No quarrel with Iranian people, even though Iran is a democracy, and they are the ones that will suffer. And all this hostile talk about Iran solidifies support for the Mullahs. Bush never understood, “speak softly and carry a big stick”.

paradox @ 44

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

They already fixed this through the back end, the interim AG is a filthy offensive wingnut, I forget the asshole’s name. If you don’t confirm this jerk, well, we really have an animal to run the show if you confirm no one.

sometimes we can’t stop bad things from happening.

but we can always say “not in my name”.

if the DOJ is going to continue to condone torture, at least we can ask it not be done with democratic approval.

OMG – Condi is ducking the very forst question

Henry: Did Malaki intervene in a corruption investigation of his cousin?

Condi: The answer may get into confidential sources.

As the Senate debates these weighty topics and w. and Co. pound the drums of war in DC, our supposed ‘A team’ tours ethanol plants and hog lots in the Tall Corn state.

Is this a great system or what?

I’m sure we’re all going to switch to Condi now that she’s up. Remember, she’s one of the best liars in Washington. She can skirt an issue that most would consider unskirtable.

Remember this line: “The map that we put on the table was of Afganistan, not Iraq.” (or something like that)

Waterboarding is torture and we do it. And we most probably do other things which they like to called “enhanced interrogation” which is double speak for torture.

Torture and EI is not to gain information. It is to send a message and a threat to others that they will be abused. You are not allowed to sit silent in a prison cell. You will be made to suffer. THAT IS THE MESSAGE.

These are techniques of state terror which are meant to fight fire with fire, to make martyrdom off the table. It’s dirty war and we are willing to play dirty. They are also thrilled that this is out there. It’s MEANT to be out there. If this wasn’t leaked it would not be working.

War is hell, And our warriors don’t care how they win. Many are sadists with no ethics, and the means always justify the ends.

The real question is: what exactly is the threat of terrorism to American society? Are we talking some nasty random attacks? Or a toppling of our society? Can we get rid of bank robbery? or drunk driving? or murder? How much of these is tolerable and how do we diminish this antisocial behavior?

We skeer people to behave well. right?

From Merriam-Webster: def. for neocon.

1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism
2 : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means

For those who don’t know (probably not many in this crowd):

The waterboarding technique, characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a “professional interrogation technique,”[13] is described as follows by journalist Julia Layton:

“Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person’s arms and legs so he can’t move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person’s face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person’s mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person’s mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.”[14]

CIA officers who subject themselves to the technique last an average of 14 seconds before caving in.[15

Good Morning all !

Why is Waxman cooking Rice this early in the day ?!! *g*

((((hug))))

Because we could all use one right now.

(((((hug)))))

The more this kabuki goes on, the more I support actions such as MoveOn and CodePink and anyone who sticks it to the power structure.

We need more direct action. Frankly calling staffers is rather mild in that respect.

We need a real demonstrable show of outrage.

DIRECT ACTION

GeorgeSimian @ 52:

Remember, she’s one of the best liars in Washington. She can skirt an issue that most would consider unskirtable.

Completely in accord. She lies through her teeth while bobbing that head of hers up and down.

Petrocelli @ 56

Good Morning all !

Why is Waxman cooking Rice this early in the day ?!! *g*

Good on Henry!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 21

I believe that Mukasey is nothing more than a right wing neocon political hack.

I believe that what you say may be true, but that he’s the best you can possibly expect from this administration. What this really tells you is what a sad predicament we’re really in.

Sander at 58 — So, what action are you taking today? Not snark, I’m serious…advocating and doing are two entirely separate things, in my experience, and if someone has some good, concrete, real world action steps they are taking, I would love to hear what folks are doing.

Petrocelli @ 56

Good Morning all !

Why is Waxman cooking Rice this early in the day ?!! *g*

Speaking of early in the day, I thot you were a night owl Petro.

((((Phoenix Woman!)))

you’re right!
thank you

Helen @ 50

OMG – Condi is ducking the very forst question

Henry: Did Malaki intervene in a corruption investigation of his cousin?

Condi: The answer may get into confidential sources.

As always, big thanks Helen :)

Oklahoma kiddo @ 54

From Merriam-Webster: def. for neocon.

1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism
2 : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means

truly? in merriam-webster?
i wonder if norman podhoretz gave his approval.

Phoenix Woman @ 60

Petrocelli @ 56

Good Morning all !

Why is Waxman cooking Rice this early in the day ?!! *g*

Good on Henry!

A long time ago, I thought Rice was a smart woman … now I think she’s emulating one …

egregious @ 63

Petrocelli @ 56

Good Morning all !

Why is Waxman cooking Rice this early in the day ?!! *g*

Speaking of early in the day, I thot you were a night owl Petro.

((( egregious )))

I came for the Rice hearing. It’s fun watching TV with firepups !

Biodun @ 59

GeorgeSimian @ 52:

Remember, she’s one of the best liars in Washington. She can skirt an issue that most would consider unskirtable.

Completely in accord. She lies through her teeth while bobbing that head of hers up and down.

actually, i don’t think she’s that good a liar. she’s just like the rest of the bushies: willing to lie, no matter how obvious, and without any sense of shame.
this is part and parcel of the definition of sociopath, btw.

I think the people are intimidated and paralyzed in able to act. Blogging and commenting is letting off some steam, informing people, forming communities. But we need MORE. We really do.

Our government has really failed us, and really screwed up lots of the world. We need to seriously change that… not just nibble at the corners. Just look at what wehave done. Even the good stuff spoils the world, pollutes and plunders resources in the name of consumerism and comfort. We are but another aggressive military empire. We are not a democracy, but a corporatocracy.

Look, our government is now for, by and of corporations. That is the reality. They even have been granted “personhood”.

We are living in a fantasy, or night mare.

CHS @ 62:

I believe SanderO wants to take to the streets. But as looseheadprop told him yesterday, nobody is stopping him from doing that.

dmg @ 69:

You’ve embedded your comment within mine, thereby attributing to me comments that are not mine.

[Mod: (sigh). Did you refresh yet?]

can we also get SJCommittee to ask of Mukasey what we all got from Elliot Ricahrdson in Watergate as a condition of confirmation, a promise to appoint a special/independent prosecutor to investigate and clean house at WH and Justice. I mean the Abu Gonzalez and other former (maybe present) AG and US Attorneys are under investigation, not to mention fat Karl and his kiddy kommandos from the Wh Jesus club.

Elliott @ 64

((((Phoenix Woman!)))

you’re right!
thank you

A ((( Great Big Bear Hug ))) to all of you from Canada !

Shays: I cannot think of anything my democratic colleagues have to done to help us win in Iraq. This committee has only look for bad things. Tell me what would we gain if we did a frontal assault on the prime minister.

Condi: Nothing – we think corruption is wrong. But to make unsubstantiated allegation will be deeply damaging.

Spew alert (don’t say I didn’t warn you).

Is the good doctor wearing this dress for her date with Waxman today?

http://sparklepony.blogspot.co…..ances.html

Shays is licking condi’s boots for want of anything better to do.

OT…. OK kiddo. How is “Hugh’s” daughter?

Christy, You and Jane are ameican hereos. Truly you are.

What I am advocating is a massive demonstration or national strike.. even for an hour. To demonstrate how large the dissatisfaction is. I am not advocating any destruction or harm. But if this is large enough and throughout the nation and coordinated it cannot be ignored by the media.

France does it, Italy does it. We need to let the people be heard NOW.

Corruption,

Condi,

Justice Rahdi made the alllegation that Maliki stymied his corruption investigation in Iraq!!

Not an American!!!!
Shays a vlassic loser!!! Pickled!!!

Shays BSing about the Turk/Armenian resolution.

Of course no one is stopping me from passing out leaflets.

I am talking about huge coordinated demonstrations of 10’s of millions of americans.

Shays is kooky

WTF is Shays talking about?

SanderO @ 81

Of course no one is stopping me from passing out leaflets.

I am talking about huge coordinated demonstrations of 10’s of millions of americans.

Nobody is stopping you from trying to organize that, either.

One might wonder at this point, given the record, if it matters who George W. Bush appoints to what?

nomolos @ 77

Shays is licking condi’s boots for want of anything better to do.

OT…. OK kiddo. How is “Hugh’s” daughter?

LOL

mc @ 76

Spew alert (don’t say I didn’t warn you).

Is the good doctor wearing this dress for her date with Waxman today?

http://sparklepony.blogspot.co…..ances.html

ReDress of Grievances 707!

Petrocelli @ 68

It’s fun watching TV with firepups !

at first i was just watching bush (i can’t do that without moral support), then christy got me to watch a couple of congressional hearings… from that i’ve turned into a c-span junkie – and it’s all christy’s fault! (i mean that in a good way).

but still, i find it much easier to watch with company. *g*

ok. back to the phone. i want to see how much of rice i can tolerate, and i’m not letting myself watch until i get through christy’s calling list.

Welch – if Malaki is protecting corrupt officials do the American people have the right to know.

Condi: Yes, but we owe it to everyone to do thorough investigations and not respond to uncorroberated allegations.

She is kicking the can down the road.

Shays: so when will you tell us?

Condi: Corruption sucks – we want to root it out.

Condi fillerbusting – Welch and Waxman shutting her up

Sander — I linked this up yesterday, but there is a mass demonstration scheduled for this coming Saturday that fits what you are asking for…no idea if any of the scheduled locations are near you, but it is worth a peek. And that’s just one potential action step offline…

Biodun I respect LHP greatly as well, but I don’t need her permission to demonstrate.

I’ve watched with great sadness as the LHPs and CHSs try to use the system to make it responsive. It’s not working. We are losing ground even if we are playing by the rules. These gals may be uncomfortable standing shoulder to shoulder with others in a march or a demo, but when you see millions of people who are demanding something you have to take notice.

Didn’t you see the silent revolutions in eastern Europe? The so called people power at work? That’s what this country needs. If we keep playing by the rules we will lose more and more and we see our guys are wolves in sheep’s clothing. It’s not working is it?

Mods @ 72:

I just did. Thanks. I’ll keep calm today. A little pissed about yesterday and what’s going on in this country in general: In Congress and in this dishonest administration.

Things sure have improved since Rumsfeld was replaced by Gates.

Condi, lies via the space between your teeth!!!

Condi will not answer the the question!!!

Biodun @ 72

dmg @ 69:

You’ve embedded your comment within mine, thereby attributing to me comments that are not mine.

[Mod: (sigh). Did you refresh yet?]

yes, i messed up.
i am sorry about that.

Since I don’t know about it… and I consider myself well informed I doubt 10s of millions will participate.

I am not in a position to organize such a demonstration. It needs to be coordinated by an existing progressive organization and use other coalition of groups and unions.

JF comments like that are disingenuous. I’ve walked in dozens of demonstrations and will continue to. I am not a political organizer. But I am political.

How odd. In connection with Iran I find myself supporting the Russian, Putin, as our best hope for preventing our lunatic President from going off the deep end.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 38

Not all neocons are Republican.

Exactly. As Naomi Klein points out in her book, many of those characterized as “neoliberal” are philosophical cousins of the neocons.

Dan Burton: I am so sorry that we are being mean to you.

Dan Burton asking about Israel “because it’s almost the same area.”

Holy Sh*t

SanderO @ 91:

I agree with you, but I’ll be brief: European political and civil societies (especially in France and Italy) are completely organized differently from those in the US. Those differences depend on a lot of things: history, political systems, legal institutions, and so on.

I was part of the 1960s (though I was a high-school teenager) and I spent a lot of time in the streets demonstrating and in be-ins in Central Park. I know what you’re talking about.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 62

Sander at 58 — So, what action are you taking today? Not snark, I’m serious…advocating and doing are two entirely separate things, in my experience, and if someone has some good, concrete, real world action steps they are taking, I would love to hear what folks are doing.

if any of you happen to live in
new york, chicago, san fran,
or about a dozen other cities. . .

go out on october 27, 2007 — and
let yourself be heard, seen, and counted!

p e a c e

Helen @ 100

Dan Burton asking about Israel “because it’s almost the same area.”

Holy Sh*t

Well, it is “over there.”

Christy Hardin Smith @ 62

Sander at 58 — So, what action are you taking today? Not snark, I’m serious…advocating and doing are two entirely separate things, in my experience, and if someone has some good, concrete, real world action steps they are taking, I would love to hear what folks are doing.

Glad you asked, CHS. It’d be encouraging to hear what everyone commenting @ FDL is doing. Today, before I leave for work in an hour I’m faxing plus calling from your list above & Scarecrow’s on the previous thread.

And as you mentioned upthread, here’s something we can all do this Saturday. I’ll be there for the march in downtown L.A. w/friends & family:

http://www.oct27.org/

Helen @ 75

Shays: I cannot think of anything my democratic colleagues have to done to help us win in Iraq.

Did Shays actually say that? That is such a fucking outrageous statement, if I were Waxman I would have lost it and demanded a retraction. That is practically calling them traitors. And of course, he’ll get away with it. Unlike Pete Stark.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 90

Sander — I linked this up yesterday, but there is a mass demonstration scheduled for this coming Saturday that fits what you are asking for…no idea if any of the scheduled locations are near you, but it is worth a peek. And that’s just one potential action step offline…

DING!

[great minds. . .]

It’s hard to watch Rice. She’s really scary to look at and listen to. All she does is do talking points. Isn’t she supposed to know something? I could give her testimony…nothing any jerk couldn’t spin off without prep.

SanderO @ 91

If we keep playing by the rules we will lose more and more and we see our guys are wolves in sheep’s clothing. It’s not working is it?

Actually, I think our guys are more like what Winston Churchill said of Clemenet Attlee:
“Clement Attlee is a sheep in sheep’s clothing.”

Burton giving Condi the floor to justify contractors.

Librarian @ 105

Helen @ 75

Shays: I cannot think of anything my democratic colleagues have to done to help us win in Iraq.

Did Shays actually say that? That is such a fucking outrageous statement, if I were Waxman I would have lost it and demanded a retraction. That is practically calling them traitors. And of course, he’ll get away with it. Unlike Pete Stark.

Yup – almost a direct quote.

new whiny tactic by goopers.
on cspan 1.

did they ever ever suspend a vote for katrina or anything else.

Hillary Clinton had it right years ago when the Senator talked about “the vast right wing conspiracy”. But for today, I think I’d tweak it just a hair. ‘Vast neocon conspiracy.’

This waterboarding thing irks me to no end. These guys do well in adding a little lightheartedness to the topic though… made me chuckle a bit.

http://tshirtinsurgency.com/node/12

dmg @ 69

Biodun @ 59

GeorgeSimian @ 52:
Completely in accord. She lies through her teeth while bobbing that head of hers up and down.

actually, i don’t think she’s that good a liar. she’s just like the rest of the bushies: willing to lie, no matter how obvious, and without any sense of shame.
this is part and parcel of the definition of sociopath, btw.

I never understood how she could have successfully defended a PhD dissertation using the obscurantist, smokescreen laying, run-out-the clock methods she employs in testimony. She hasn’t been quite so bad today.

SanderO @ 96

I am not a political organizer. But I am political.

then certainly you understand that different people are called to different things?

… and from what reading i have done about people powered movements – alternative methods of communication are the nerves centers connecting people. imo, asking jane and christy to hit the streets would be counter productive.

SanderO @ 70

I think the people are intimidated and paralyzed in able to act. Blogging and commenting is letting off some steam, informing people, forming communities. But we need MORE. We really do.

in my case, i have done more… but at the moment, i can’t do all that i want to, and contributing to congressional oversight while trying to better educate seems like a worthwhile thing to me.

i think we all do what we can… and trying to figure out what more makes sense for us to do.

p.s. have you seen this pics from monday in dc? kirk and i have done actions with some of these wonderful people.

Shays is a slime bucket. These people are beneath contempt.

For those who, like me, had not seen what an actual waterboard looks like, David Corn has some photos of one used by the Khmer Rouge during their time “justifying means with ends”:

This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like

This waterboard is located in what was once a school that the Khmer Rouge converted into a prison. It is now a museum.

Thanks to James Fallows for the link.

Wonder how historians will treat the subject of when Democracy began to crumble?

SanderO @ 96

Since I don’t know about it… and I consider myself well informed I doubt 10s of millions will participate.

I am not in a position to organize such a demonstration. It needs to be coordinated by an existing progressive organization and use other coalition of groups and unions.

JF comments like that are disingenuous. I’ve walked in dozens of demonstrations and will continue to. I am not a political organizer. But I am political.

SandrO, David Crosby has it correct. Americans are more concerned with affordable gas $ than they are about the fabricated reasons for invading Iraq. Biden cannot see coffins coming back, Bush protects a corrupt government in Iraq, Maliki suppresses corruption investigations by Justice Rahdi and Americans pay with blood and money to secure Exxon Mobile future product resource, and cash flow. This is the “1933 Business Plan” realized. 58,000, without luck, good men, dead men now gone. Vietnam, my friends my brothers, my cousins. They will never reinstate the draft, it will undermine the oil whores entire plan to keep America addicted to oil for the next 100 years. Corporate interests have raped America and the world enough, since the end of WWII. How about a war on “ENERGY?” Cannot upset the cash flow!!!!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 118

Wonder how historians will treat the subject of when Democracy began to crumble?

I keep thinking about the way Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
begins by describing the Empire at it’s height of power in influence under Augustus and then begins describing the fall. I always think about such a work on the U.S. beginning with the U.S. in about 2000.

Selise, I am not asking jane and redd to hit the streets. But seeing them there would be inspirational.

I am asking the netroots to use their organizational skills to get the people out from behind their PCs and onto the streets.

I’m not asking to completely abandon the polite tack, but I am asking for a more people in the face en mass. I think this is a more effective means to make a statement.

Why do workers strike?

Jane has a new thread up.

Please Sign A Petition To Harry Reid On Telecom Immunity

October coming to an end- less than fifteen months of president Poopy Pants left.

Cummings calling her out on incompetence of State dept. She looks really pissed!!! Giving Cummings teh evil eye!!

Fresh thread from Jane — please take a look…

Oklahoma kiddo @ 112

Hillary Clinton had it right years ago when the Senator talked about “the vast right wing conspiracy”. But for today, I think I’d tweak it just a hair. ‘Vast neocon conspiracy.’

Take it easy, OKk, you’ll be labeled a conspiratist.

I still think the real question to him on water boarding is: Why is this a difficult question. What do you need to know to determine if something is torture. What are the criteria for determining if something is torture and who establishes the application of the criteria. Water boarding is a great symbol but it is only one of many forms of torture we use but call something else.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 97

How odd. In connection with Iran I find myself supporting the Russian, Putin, as our best hope for preventing our lunatic President from going off the deep end.

Yes Putin is more listened to than, the ‘Anmerican People.

James Joyce @ 119

SanderO @ 96

Since I don’t know about it… and I consider myself well informed I doubt 10s of millions will participate.

I am not in a position to organize such a demonstration. It needs to be coordinated by an existing progressive organization and use other coalition of groups and unions.

JF comments like that are disingenuous. I’ve walked in dozens of demonstrations and will continue to. I am not a political organizer. But I am political.

SandrO, David Crosby has it correct. Americans are more concerned with affordable gas $ than they are about the fabricated reasons for invading Iraq. Biden cannot see coffins coming back, Bush protects a corrupt government in Iraq, Maliki suppresses corruption investigations by Justice Rahdi and Americans pay with blood and money to secure Exxon Mobile future product resource, and cash flow. This is the “1933 Business Plan” realized. 58,000, without luck, good men, dead men now gone. Vietnam, my friends my brothers, my cousins. They will never reinstate the draft, it will undermine the oil whores entire plan to keep America addicted to oil for the next 100 years. Corporate interests have raped America and the world enough, since the end of WWII. How about a war on “ENERGY?” Cannot upset the cash flow!!!!

I don’t think it’s fair to promote a materialistic culture and then chide people for being self- centered.

That’s like giving your kids candy and blaming them for their cavities.

I support all actions.

I think that better than send small contributions to congress critters, we need to buy media and talk to the people.

Don’t feed the corrupt practice of more money in politics.

pma @ 114

dmg @ 69

actually, i don’t think she’s that good a liar. she’s just like the rest of the bushies: willing to lie, no matter how obvious, and without any sense of shame.
this is part and parcel of the definition of sociopath, btw.

I never understood how she could have successfully defended a PhD dissertation using the obscurantist, smokescreen laying, run-out-the clock methods she employs in testimony. She hasn’t been quite so bad today.

Let me help you out with that. I have seen the same kind of shenanigans played with dissertation defenses that you have seen elsewhere: scheduling and posting them with short notice, contrary to the rules, during summer vacations and holiday sessions when no one is around, packing committees with members that are beholden to a powerful major advisor who will therefore go along with a dog and pony show, etc.

Please don’t let the fact that she holds a Ph.D. impress you in any way. I have one myself and can categorically say that some of the most inept people I know have one. Some of the most brilliant do as well. Like in all things, the title itself is meaningless.

SanderO @ 121

Selise, I am not asking jane and redd to hit the streets. But seeing them there would be inspirational.

I am asking the netroots to use their organizational skills to get the people out from behind their PCs and onto the streets.

I’m not asking to completely abandon the polite tack, but I am asking for a more people in the face en mass. I think this is a more effective means to make a statement.

Why do workers strike?

i’m not arguing against direct action. i’m just saying that not everyone has to do everything for it all to get done. maybe the most important thing is that people are engaged – in whatever ways suit their talent and inclination.

and i guess i think that politcal movements are most effective when there are people working in the system, on the fringes of the system, and in the street. there’s a bunch of stuff to get done, and it’s not all street action.

jeeze, i don’t believe i’m arguing in support of non-street action… usually i’m defending the importance of street action. *g*

It would be useful, as mentioned in a previous reply, to offer water boarding to the AG designate or anyone who waffles or states water boarding is not torture. The apparatus I’ve seen is a tank about 4×2x.1/2ft. deep. The victim is strapped to a board; arms restrained along side the body, with the neck and head protruding over the end of the board. In the better models, the board is hinged, allowing fewer personnel and reduced effort on the part of the “interrogator”.

Poor guy doesn’t know what’s torture and what isn’t til he asks Bush

Tonster @ 131:

Agreed about PhDs. All you need to do is stack your dissertation committee with friends and llies.

FDL Film Salon with Stephen Grey is beginning for everyone.

Further to my 135:

I guess there’s the matter of prelims (exams) before the dissertation: But programs, departments, and universities handle that differently.

Petrocelli @ 129

James Joyce @ 119

SandrO, David Crosby has it correct. Americans are more concerned with affordable gas $ than they are about the fabricated reasons for invading Iraq. Biden cannot see coffins coming back, Bush protects a corrupt government in Iraq, Maliki suppresses corruption investigations by Justice Rahdi and Americans pay with blood and money to secure Exxon Mobile future product resource, and cash flow. This is the “1933 Business Plan” realized. 58,000, without luck, good men, dead men now gone. Vietnam, my friends my brothers, my cousins. They will never reinstate the draft, it will undermine the oil whores entire plan to keep America addicted to oil for the next 100 years. Corporate interests have raped America and the world enough, since the end of WWII. How about a war on “ENERGY?” Cannot upset the cash flow!!!!

I don’t think it’s fair to promote a materialistic culture and then chide people for being self- centered.

That’s like giving your kids candy and blaming them for their cavities.

Or instilling a nicotine addiction in a population, to make billions of dollars, then when peole start dying from the “addiction,” of their marketed addictive product which they spent “billions of dollars to challenge common sense, cigagrettes cause cancer” the purveyors of death and dispair, get away with it. We have enough problems here at home. Instead corporate goes and fucks up the lives of millions of Iraqis. Just like Iraqi friend said, “…is this liberation or subjecgation?????”

Christy Hardin Smith @ 136

FDL Film Salon with Stephen Grey is beginning for everyone.

Too many things going on at the Lake today. Not complaining. I like it!

Tonster @ 131

pma @ 114

I never understood how she could have successfully defended a PhD dissertation using the obscurantist, smokescreen laying, run-out-the clock methods she employs in testimony. She hasn’t been quite so bad today.

Let me help you out with that. I have seen the same kind of shenanigans played with dissertation defenses that you have seen elsewhere: scheduling and posting them with short notice, contrary to the rules, during summer vacations and holiday sessions when no one is around, packing committees with members that are beholden to a powerful major advisor who will therefore go along with a dog and pony show, etc.

Please don’t let the fact that she holds a Ph.D. impress you in any way. I have one myself and can categorically say that some of the most inept people I know have one. Some of the most brilliant do as well. Like in all things, the title itself is meaningless.

Tonster,

Thanks. I supposed that was the case, but assumed at some point she must have been subjected to training on the proper methods of advancing an argument. I just always wondered if she was making herself a little sick.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 62

Sander at 58 — So, what action are you taking today? Not snark, I’m serious…advocating and doing are two entirely separate things, in my experience, and if someone has some good, concrete, real world action steps they are taking, I would love to hear what folks are doing.

Ambiguity marks representative democracy. We believe the 2006 elections indicated a general desire to withdraw from Iraq. That was my intention when I voted, but subsequent events prove that even the elected are unsure. Demonstrations don’t do it. Worldwide demonstrations of millions of people didn’t keep Iraq from starting.

We need a way to harness the internet to promote mass action. Millions join facebook, but facebook does not provide a way to contact every subscriber or engage subscribers in a discussion of a proposed action.

That’s the problem with my idea of a no buying day. It’s a powerful idea if I say so myself. Imagine a day when Best Buy racks up zero sales as do supermarkets etc. No one risks anything as in a demonstration or general strike. A mass undertaking would, if successful, show us how much in the majority we are, but it has to be massive. I don’t know if it’s off topic, but we should talk about how to make something big but non-threatening happen.

Potentially the most intriguing: If Mukasey now does not publicly agree that waterboarding is unlawful, could (principled) Dems who signed a letter such as this really vote for him? (emphasis mine)

yes, because they know voters who care about such issues are so co-dependent they will vote (D) no matter what.

I want to inform/remind everyone that when you sign up with Working Assets (http://www.workingassets.com/index.cfm), you get what they call “Freedom Minutes”, wherein they DO NOT CHARGE for calls made to legislative offices and officials. I’m not a phone plan sales person here, I am just wanting to share that with you. I have been on that plan since right before the 06 elections, and I NEVER get charged for my calls to congress critters, plus the bill is always really low! It’s a great deal, they DO what they SAY, and a portion of each payment you make on other long distance calls goes toward progressive causes and not for profit groups. It’s just a huge plus all the way around.
FYI ONLY!
I work for Citizens For Legitimate Government, NOT Working Assets, just to be clear. Check it out!
siri@legitgov.org
http://www.legitgov.org

Thinking about it a bit further, how about if we agree on something, massive but non-threatening, pick a day and all of us and every member of every liberal blog or movement send notices to everyone in our address books. That might cover the country quickly. That may not be the right idea, but we need something like that. I’m sure if we put our heads together we’ll come up with something.

Don’t know if this is the right thread to post this, but emptywheel is following the House Oversight/Condi show over @ TNH plus commentary:

The Next Hurrah- Waxman Hosts Condi

Have to drive over to work now. Read you all later.

Shorter Condi: “It’s a war zone, shit happens.”

Done, I also sent the FDL web link with the info out to a bunch of friends to sign as well.

SanderO @ 78

Christy, You and Jane are ameican hereos. Truly you are.

What I am advocating is a massive demonstration or national strike.. even for an hour. To demonstrate how large the dissatisfaction is. I am not advocating any destruction or harm. But if this is large enough and throughout the nation and coordinated it cannot be ignored by the media.

France does it, Italy does it. We need to let the people be heard NOW.

you’re my guy ,sanderO. My notes on condi’s hearing: Reps who took her down with hard facts and a good grilling: Tierney, Cummings, Lyndh (sp), Duncan (A true fiscal conservation repub — loved his outrage at money wasted), Sarbanes, DAvis, Hodes **, Maloney *, and others. Does your heart good to see them pissed. Hoping it’s not all show. Don’t really think so in these cases. Loved the quote from Wm F. Buckley of all people that continuing the war was “a misapplication of pride”. Condi is convinced that if her diction is good enough and her hair well starched she’ll sound smart, credible despite lack of reall info. And beware the use of words like “difficult” and complex” — euphemisms for “I’m too incompetent to do this job, feel sorry for me”. Note also constant references to “management” versus the importance of what inspector generalsl do. Corporate mentality rules.

Sander is right about the street. Thing is it’ll take ALL of us being there, national strike, peaceful march. I agree with the repub who said code pink’s bloody hand trick works against us. Dimishes credibility. Dignity bearing truth breeds credibility among the masses. Go on, tell me i’m wrong, but i’m know i’m not. I’m just some boneheaded mainer out here in the middle of nowhere surrounded by support our troops labelled pickup trucks. March on DC. Millions of people. Gandhi knew it all. And it would still work. It’ll happen. xo

Christy Hardin Smith @ 90

Sander — I linked this up yesterday, but there is a mass demonstration scheduled for this coming Saturday that fits what you are asking for…no idea if any of the scheduled locations are near you, but it is worth a peek. And that’s just one potential action step offline…

sander, lemmie know you heard me. I’m in boston this weekend for the march. i don’t care if there are 5 people there. i’m there, it’s a start. i’ll let you know how it goes. howard zinn is peaking. also M. benjamin i think among others. i gotta get physically connected with this somehow or the despair will be too much.

Blub @ 39

saber rattling….. it’s a great diversion. From what I can see, the Iranians didn’t even do anthing specific to escalate the situation this time. This is just more smoke from a fire of our own creation… from when we designated them (yesterday) something bad or other. This is really quite Orwellian.

A lot of the saber-rattling is directed at Russia. Russia has supplied the Bushehr light-water nuclear reactor to Iran and has its own inspectors going on. In fact, contrary to this vast “rush” to build the reactor it’s actually several years behind being operational. The Russians, and recently Al-Baradei, have stated that we have to separate what is really going on in that plant from what is being said to provoke one another.

Yet Bush has threatened Russia that their cooperation with Iran “Might start WWIII”. A World War is one in which significant powers draw support of other states against one another.

I see this threat by Bush as suggesting that the US might attack, not Iran (which would have about as many allies as Kim Jong-Il if it developed an actual nuclear weapon and tested it), but RUSSIA.

That of course would be Armageddon…THAT is what is being threatened by Bush to Putin!

http://www.thestate.com/372/story/202984.html

pma @ 114

I never understood how she could have successfully defended a PhD dissertation using the obscurantist, smokescreen laying, run-out-the clock methods she employs in testimony. She hasn’t been quite so bad today.

I’m not sure that she had to defend it very thouroughly, and if she did then the Committee didn’t pick up some egregious errors…as other Sovietologists, Czech historians (it was on USSR-Czech relations), and just plain historians, have pointed out. But sometimes dissertation committees do actually approve people who have just this approach.

Apparently her book co-authored with the notorious Phil Zelikow is just as filled with mistakes and predictions that turned out to be 180 degrees in error. But, ironically, that wasn’t unusual at the time…the CIA and others in the Administration and outside got much of what they thought was happening in the USSR very wrong.

Biodun @ 135

Tonster @ 131:

Agreed about PhDs. All you need to do is stack your dissertation committee with friends and llies.

Another contrarian method is to stack it with opponents…who then argue with one another for the allocated time.

I spoke to Feinstein’s office. The staffer on the phone told me that while DiFi has not issued a statement about how she will vote, she has serious concerns about Mukasey’s nomination because of the statements he made at his hearing about waterboarding. He also said that DiFi has serious doubts about giving the telecoms immunity but voted yes to move the legislation out of the Intelligence Committee, where it had bipartisan support, and into the Judiciary Committee where it would get more debate(ok,don’t blame me, thats what he said). He said that she believes the FISA legislation that was passed by the intelligence(an oxymoron?) committee has serious flaws that she wants to fix. He said that DiFi is open to suggestions.

dmg @ 8

mukasey will be confirmed, and in a walk. the explanation dems will offer is: if we didn’t put him in, the white house’s next candidate would be much much worse.

What would be worse than acknowledging that we torture with water-boarding and we’re okay with that?

Like funding for the war, like SCHIP, like everything, keep sending it back (even if you have to adjust it slightly to ‘clarify’ parts.

“no time-lines, no funding, no excuses” — John Edwards on Iraq war funding bills

Pelosi Chamberlain Demos will fold & “support the Pretzeldent”– They don’t give a flying f*ck about human rights, the troops (who’ll be subject to the same torture in retaliation) or esp. the voters of the Demo base.