A little Schoolhouse Rock, and the Preamble to the US Constitution. Enjoy.
Through a recent op-ed in the Daytona Beach News-Journal (H/T to reader WB for the link), I was reminded of the stark contrast between legislators and justices of a bygone era and those today. To wit:
“We are currently in the throes of another national seizure of paranoia, resembling the hysteria which surrounded the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Palmer Raids, and the McCarthy era,” the judge wrote. “Those who register dissent or who petition their governments for redress are subjected to scrutiny by grand juries, by the FBI, or even by the military. Their associates are interrogated. Their homes are bugged and their telephones are wiretapped. They are befriended by secret government informers. Their patriotism and loyalty are questioned. . . . More than our privacy is implicated. Also at stake is the reach of the Government’s power to intimidate its critics.”
The words could have been lifted out of a court opinion written yesterday. But that’s assuming the federal bench hadn’t been stacked with judges who, like the Supreme Court’s latest two arrivals, play lapdogs to executive power. The words above were actually written by Justice William O. Douglas in a once-landmark 1972 case involving secret domestic wiretapping. The spying had been ordered by the unsurprising Richard Nixon. The court ruled 8-0 that Fourth Amendment freedoms against unreasonable searches and seizures “cannot properly be guaranteed if domestic surveillances may be conducted solely within the discretion of the executive branch.” Half the court’s judges were Nixon appointees, including Chief Justice Warren Burger and Justice Lewis Powell, the author of the decision and a member of the court for only six months. Nixon, still riding 62 percent approval at the time, couldn’t muster a single vote out of his court.
Just before Nixon nominated him, Powell had written a newspaper article defending secret wiretapping and suggesting that the difference between wiretapping of foreign and domestic sources was “largely meaningless.” But those were days when you couldn’t quite predict Supreme Court outcomes by the rank partisanship of its members, when constitutional principle could still trump the ideological abuses of a presidency looking for a blank check. Times have indeed changed. Lewis had meant it, when questioned during his confirmation hearings about that wiretapping article, that he was keeping an open mind — unlike John Roberts, the current chief justice, who gave senators a lesson in the importance of precedent during his hearings only to spend his first two years on the court playing IED to a slew of precedents….
The author goes on to discuss the servility of Congress toward the unilateral executive demands on retroactive immunity and unlimited extralegal action, all issues we have discussed ad nauseum in the last few weeks. It is enough to make a person committed to the rule of law and the Constitution weep — or scream. But instead, I am going to take the old saying to heart, don’t get mad — get even.
“We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union…” What they do not want us to remember is that we hold the power: to vote them out, to assemble, to speak up, to demand change…and to demand better for ourselves and our posterity. We, the people. And so, we must.
Step one: Make calls, send faxes, what have you — but be certain that your Senators know that you expect a “no” vote on cloture for Southwick. Debate is ongoing on the floor of the Senate right now (C-Span2 has coverage). Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska has been trying to cut a deal with some of the Gang of Fourteen, and that there has been a sort of hands’ off posture from Dem leadership, according to Roll Call. (And, yes, I have already been on the phone — again — with Sens. Byrd and Rockefeller’s staffers.) It is time for excellence — and not capitulation.
Step two: Call all the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, every Senator and especially those Senators who are running for President — and tell them NO retroactive immunity in the FISA bill. Period. (You can find direct dial numbers for every Senator here.)
Step three: That’s what we are going to decide today. A letter to the editor in your local paper on standing up for the Constitution and against retroactive immunity for telecoms who broke the FISA laws? As much participation as possible in the planned demonstrations on October 27th against the occupation in Iraq? Appointments with elected representatives and/or staffers in local offices to discuss the issues of the day? A new action to grab some attention on an issue that deserves it? I open the floor to some ideas, because I know there is a good one out there waiting to be voiced.
President Bush’s consistent race to the dregs, his sneering disregard for the rule of law and for the majority of Americans as he caters to the tiny fraction of adoring sycophants and weasels — it is enough to wear anyone down with despair and disgust. I hear a lot of frustration and anger, both in the comments and in my e-mail these days — and believe me, I not only hear it, but I live it some days right along with you.
The one thing we cannot do is to stop fighting for what is right, what is just…for a more perfect union. The Founders of this nation of ours knew that tyrants and greedy SOBs were always going to exist, but they counted on us — the American public — to stand with one voice and say “enough!” when the tipping point had occurred and the wrongs became so excessive that they demanded being pulled back from the brink. We are at that point and beyond. We must decide: will we have the courage of our convictions, or slink off with our tails between our legs and foist this battle onto future generations?
I stand for liberty. And I intend to keep on fighting for a more perfect union. What say you?
Senate Judiciary Committee Contact Information:
You can reach them toll free as well thanks to these numbers that katymine found:
1 (800) 828 – 0498
1 (800) 614 – 2803
1 (866) 340 – 9281
1 (866) 338 – 1015
1 (877) 851 – 6437
Also, the Senate Judiciary Committee membership and contact information is as follows:
Arlen Specter – Pennsylvania – (202) 224-4254 Fax (202) 228-1229
Joe Biden — Deleware — (202) 224-5042 Fax: 202-224-0139
Orrin G. Hatch – Utah – (202) 224-5251 Fax (202) 224-6331
Patrick J. Leahy (Chairman) – Vermont – (202) 224-4242 Fax (202) 224-3479
Charles E. Grassley – Iowa – (202) 224-3744 Fax (515) 288-5097
Edward M. Kennedy – Massachusetts – (202) 224-4543 Fax (202) 224-2417
Jon Kyl – Arizona – (202) 224-4521 Fax (202) 224-2207
Herbert Kohl – Wisconsin – (202) 224-5653 Fax (202) 224-9787
Jeff Sessions – Alabama – (202) 224-4124 Fax (202) 224-3149
Dianne Feinstein – California – (202) 224-3841 Fax (202) 228-3954
Lindsey Graham – South Carolina – (202) 224-5972 Fax (864) 250-4322
Russell D. Feingold – Wisconsin – (202) 224-5323 Fax (202) 224-2725
John Cornyn – Texas – (202) 224-2934 Fax (972) 239-2110
Charles E. Schumer – New York – (202) 224-6542 Fax (202) 228-3027
Sam Brownback – Kansas – (202) 224-6521 Fax (202) 228-1265
Richard J. Durbin – Illinois – (202) 224-2152 Fax (202) 228-0400
Tom Coburn – Oklahoma – (202) 224-5754 Fax (202) 224-6008
Benjamin Cardin — (202) 224-4524 Fax (202) 224-1651
Sheldon Whitehouse — (202) 224-2921 FAX (202) 228-6362



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2
CHS!!!
Good morning Christy!
Morning everyone. Watching the Southwick debate has been infuriating this morning…
Does anyone have any information on Sen. Whitehouse’s “Yes” vote in committee and where he stands on the filibuster?
Morning Christy – inspiring rallying cry. I will take to the phones today, as I have in the past, and as I will in the future. Somehow we have to have our voices heard, problem being, even when heard, we are ignored.
CHS thanks for your leadership and commitment will make the calls.
Middle east hearing
Rep Pence pledging his allegiance to Israel. He is worried by what he heard on the radio driving to work today. He is worried that he heard that the Bush administration is committed to “the creation of a Palestinian state” and that this would be the focus of the Middle east conference coming up.
He sayed to Condi that our commitment should be to Israel and Israel only. Pence “I pledge allegiance to Israel”
Condi answers Pence by saying that it is in Israel’s best interest in the long run for a stable and strong Israel to be solidly established is for a strong and stable Palestine to come to be.
and just in case steps one through three don’t work, how about at least allowing the possibility that a real opposition party is needed, one that is not almost completely corrupted top to bottom as the (D) party proves itself to be, day in, day out?
without allowing that possibility the (D)’s are free to ignore the urgent requests of the netroots, (again) because they know the Axiom of the Least Worst is as strong as ever. (almost)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 4
I can’t watch the debate where I am. What’s going on. Is Ben Nelson being a contemptible SOB again?
Condi corruption in Iraq “endemic” We are “Pressing the Iraqi government in regard to corruption”
Jeez Louise how in the hell can we solve Iraqi corruption issue when US contractors lead the way.
Kathleen @ 10
Blame the victim…it’s not just a stupid idea, it’s Bush administration policy.
Middle east hearing
Lantos asking for two people to be taken out of hearing. Wondered where Code Pink was during this hearing. I have never ever seen them at a hearing having to do with the middle east
The ‘bygone era’ is….well….bygone. Anyone who thinks we will be going back to the standards of that bygone era is….well….naive.
Middle east hearing
Medea Benjamen of Code Pink holding up the peace sign as she is escorted out of hearing.
Morning, Christy!
Morning, all!
Cloture vote has begun on Southwick in the Senate.
Well done, Christy.
Do you expect a vote today on Southwick?
Rep Engel beating on the war drums against Syria.
brings up the “Syrian Accountability act”
Here is Justin Raimando’s take on what Israel’s bombing of Syria was about.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11756
Engel beating hard on Syria
I suggest a public service announcement with young adults or teens reading from the Bill of Rights and with an illustrative vclip in the background taking it back to the framers, showing exactly why each one of those rights was added to the Constitution.
I would also suggest that people look into English constitutional history, going back to Magna Carta and beyond, because England is where we got so many of our constitutional concepts. The story of how Parliament developed, and reined in royal power, is eerily reminiscent of what’s going on here today- especially the 17th century revolutions. The revolution settlement of 1689 was a precursor to our constitution written a century later.
Glenn Greenwald today:
Maybe he meant to say “in the Democratic primary system, and if that doesn’t work you have to vote Least Worst anyway?”
maybe it can be read to include implied support for valid opposition party options?
Elliott @ 19
Excellent! A series could be built upon this idea. Good counter’balance’ to media complicity.
Christy:
Cloture vote still going on. Do you sense how this might end up?
Kathleen @ 7
It’s scary when Rice is the sane one in the discussion.
60 votes are needed…
Bless you Christy, done , done and done.
Have to rest my eyes, but want to mention for all Tweety watchers that he is on “On Point” today.
http://www.onpointradio.org/sh…..b_main.asp
see you later.
epu’d from last thread
think progress has the report on Iraq revoking immunity from prosecution for private security firms(mercenaries)
Biodun at 23 — I’ve been on and off the phones this morning with staffers in a couple of the leadership offices, and no one is sure. Nelson has been doing some behind-the-scenes dealing with Lott — just like Feinstein did — and no one I’ve spoken with seems to have a whip count at this point that they are sharing with me, which makes me supremely nervous about this vote.
Please, if you haven’t called, do so now. The vote is ongoing on cloture.
Cloture: several “ayes” so far…
Librarian @ 20
Make this a part of the Elliot Series on the development of ‘Democracy in Our Country and its Challenges’. Thereby defining each generation’s role in its preservation and practice.
I don’t think the recent approach is effective.
I think progressive have to make massive media buys and put the facts out there.
Make more ruckus like the MoveOn ad. That got a lotta bang for the buck.
We need less calling, begging, whining and more media noteworthy events.
Middle east hearing
Whoa Rep Delahunt actually brings up Syria’s torture record to an administration whose torture record is horrendous.
Delahunt says to Condi “you are obviously aware of our treaty obligations” in regard to torture.
How absurd this congress asking about Syria’s torture “policies”
If we can’t get 40 votes, we’re in trouble. Are the pres candidates there?
David W. Bartoo @ 30
I like that about the each generation’s responsibility for upholding and preserving that damned piece of paper.
Sander — And we’d finance this how, exactly? because right now, it’s all we can do to cover server costs and other expenses…
The Democratic leadership [I love the smell of an oxymoron in the morning] displays as much tactical acumen as a tangled stack of coat-hangers. Jayzus, it makes me weary.
SanderO @ 31
What do you think about Elliot’s idea of educational advertisements? This would perhaps be a better use of scarce resources.
Rep Barrett says that Iran “scares him to death”
Do any of these Reps ever read anything that Iaea’s El Baredei has said about Iran? Do they read what Scott Ritter, Flynt Leverett, Joseph Cirincione say about Iran.
Or do they swallow everything the I-lobby says about Iran? Sure seems to be so.
Webb: nay
christy -
when i’ve been calling on fisa, i’ve been asking for not just no retroactive immunity but for no immunity at all (retroactive or prospective) and no basket warrants.
that, i think, should be the minimum for any bill i can support.
Byrd: aye [Mod: Burr?]
Tester: nay
Sanders: nay
Mikulsky: nay
Landrieu: nay
Dorgan: aye (surprise here)
Kathleen @ 12
Code Pink was escorted out before Condi entered the room.
Biodun @ 41
Byrd, aye???? That doesn’t seem right.
too bad kennedy is still out recovering. he might have been another “no” vote.
Snowe: aye
Feinstein: aye!
Obama: nay
Whitehouse: nay
KinMO @ 43
were they removed pre-emptively or for cause?
Biodun @ 41
Byrd was supposedly one of the ones Ben Nelson was leaning on. Seems like it worked. :-(
Biodun @ 46
Looks like the predictions were right again. Fuckery from Feinstein.
Graham: aye
Shelby: aye
Hagel: aye
Biden: nay
Biodun @ 46
Obama: nay
And, Mrs. Clinton?????
1,636 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I don’t know if anyone is watchin’ the most pathetic excuse for a Secretary of State in US history on C-Span3 but, good God, where do the Democrats come up with some a these folks??!! Who the fuck is this “Representative Elliot from New York” and why does his mother let ‘im outta the house without his scarf and mittens? And will someone PLEEZE put a muzzle on Lantos…that guy is the nastiest excuse for a Democrat we’ve seen since Strom Thurman was a Dixiecrat!
The assault on reason is goin’ up a notch, they’re tryin’ ta send Condi out in safe public forums ta beat the Iranian war drums, the fascists are censurin’ Democrats for tellin’ the truth about the Chimpenfuehrer, the two leadin’ Democratic candidates for President have their tongues tangled up in their tonsils and their heads up their asses on FISA and the telecoms, and the Democratic leader of the Senate is shepardin’ an antebellum southern slave master through confirmation to the federal bench!!! All this is happenin’ today right in front of us on national TV….my head would explode except I lost my mind the day Nancy One Note forced Pete Stark ta grovel on the floor of the House of Representatives.
Our country has lost it’s mind…I’ve said this before this week but I think I know what the Germans felt like in 1933-34…they had ta believe the unbelievable because the truth was too horrible to bear.
KEEP THE FAITH, GOD CAN’T LET THIS GO ON MUCH LONGER!!
Harkin: nay
Clinton: nay
Kerry: nay
I think that was Burr of NC and not Byrd of WV, just FYI. Just reviewed the tivo
Middle east hearing
Rep Watson asks Condi “what are your expectations for the Iraqi government to step up to the plate”
Condi ” we agree this can not be won by military means alone.” We have been disappointed by the lack of progress by the Naional reconciliation committee”. Condi goes onto say that there are significant local improvements and that money is now getting to the provinces.
We sure know that this “Iraq needs to step up the plate” line is repeated all of the time when congress and the Bush administration want to distract from how they have screwed up in Iraq
Lieberman: aye (Joe, Joe, Joe)
Rockefeller: nay
Biodun @ 53
Obama: nay
Clinton: nay
Point, counterpoint.
selise @ 47
They were wearing pink. *snark*
Biodun @ 56
Juck Loe Fieberman.
CHS @ 54:
Thanks for clarifying that!
Awww, Christy!
I have to call Feinstein, AGAIN?!
OK, but I don’t have to like her, right?
Kathleen @ 55
Baseball analogy in October…that’s clever…NOT!
KinMO @ 43
May have been that some members were. But that was Medea Benjamen being escorted out long after the hearing was underway. I am watching it and that was Medea holding up the peace sign as she was being escorted out. There may have been members earlier also. All I know is what I saw with my eyes.
EvilDrPuma @ 59
Seconded.
Warner: aye
Backus: nay
62-35
Yeas 62
Biodun @ 67
The Dems fail us again.
Full Senate will now vote on confirmation…it’s began
Elliot;
No doubt there are people who frequent this place who could put such ads together, with professional polish. Display them initially on My Space, for that is the generation most likely to ‘get it’. Most older folks, are going to be hard-pressed to easily change certain mindsets, but if their children and grandchildren lead the way they might make such an ‘investment’. I think your idea is splendid and would succeed.
Tross @ 61
I know this might be geting ahead of things, but can we start planning now to primary her in 2012? I say to plan now, because CA will take an awful lost of money(obviously), and the earlier we plan, the better off we’ll be.
Kathleen @ 63
Maybe they threw out the more vocal of the group.
I can’t take much more. I’m on the verge of tears. Not just because of Southwick, more because we’re so powerless.
solai @ 73
keep your chin up.
They haven’t seen the American public get pissed, yet.
Biodun @ 67
Is the vote up on the web yet? Or will that come in a few hours? Is Southwick being voted on seperately? So 10 Dems Liebertoad voted for Southwick on part 1? Ugh!!!
Bustednuckles @ 74
That could only be so if they’ve been ignoring their own approvals.
Can anyone explain why Snowe is so beloved in Maine?
Al @ 77
It beats Sleet.
Will Southwick really be confirmed? We’ll find out in a few minutes…
1,365 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
The Federal bench is now a complete joke…and the joke is on us. “Rule of law??!!!”…we’re fucked here folks and if this isn’t enough ta get some serious direct action in the streets all over the country, then, shit, this ain’t a place for any a my children or grandchildren.
I’m goin’ ta bed and don’t anybody wake me up until this surreal kabuki dance is over.
KEEP THE FAITH, I’LL SEE YA IN THE CAMP!!
Biodun @ 79
Now Feinstein will vote nay, just to fulfill prophecy.
He passed
Feinstein: aye again!
EvilDrPuma @ 81
DiFi voted FOR Southwick
Kathleen @ 38
everyone’s hero Ms. Plame said on Olbermann last night that Iran has “malevolent intentions.” Does she work for the I-Lobby too?
Still waiting for tally. But looks like he’s confirmed.
“threat from Iran” the theme this morning at the middle east hearing.
Rep Russ Carnahan asking the hard question about Iran. Carnahan says that “he is deeply concerned about the “inflammatory rhetoric” coming out of the Bush administration about Iran. WWIII, etc.
Just what are these International sanctions that people are talking about against Iran based on. Iran has every right to enrich uranium up to a certain level. Experts say that there is no indication that Iran is enriching up to any level close to what would be needed to make nuclear weapons.
Condi Rice did repeat that they have asked Iran to “suspend” their enrichment of uranium. She repeated “suspend”
She goes onto lie about efforts that she claims have been made towards Iran to talk. She said that the US has made many efforts to talk with Iran but that Iran has refused.
That is in direct conflict with what Flynt Leverett has reported. He has said that Iran has made many efforts to negotiate with numerous US administrations and as been endlessly turned away.
REp. Bilikens repeated a completely false statement as if it was true. He said that “Iran has a nuclear weapons program” This is completely unproven horseshit that keeps being repeated.
When will they discuss how Iran has been asking, begging for a MIDDLE EAST FREE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ZONE. There is letter after letter at the IAEA’s website where Iran and other middle east nations have brought this issue up.
Snowe: aye
Cantwell: nay
Klobuchar: nay
Feingold: nay
NorskeFlamethrower @ 80
If you take a snooze who will give ‘em hell as well as you? I don’t think we’d like them camps. Imagine it might cost ‘em a bit to drag you there. Going gently in that dark night doesn’t set the least bit well with me,
Norske. I think we should have some real fun first.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 71
Luckily, Feinstein’s got one foot near the grave and the other on a banana peel (that’s how my dad says someone’s old).
Let’s hope she doesn’t run in 2012. If she does, I’m all for a Primary challenger.
Feinstein is absolutely awful! Harvey Milk is looking down in disgust!
Whitehouse: nay
dakine01 @ 82
Vote is still going on…
dakine01 @ 84
Fucker.
At least Can’t well had her head out for once.
oddmommy @ 85
Plame does not support a pre-emptive attack on Iran.
Watch this video. She clearly thinks the Bush administration policies towards Iran are dangerous
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21417310/
Biodun @ 91
I based the statement on the first list of “ayes” that was read. When it included folks like Byrd and other Ds, it was all over. No R is going to vote against this guy.
oddmommy @ 85
I saw some of that interview. Did she say we should bomb Iran? I’d have to guess not. I think she knows starting a war with Iran would not be a good thing. For many reasons.
Nomination confirmed…F*ck!
Biodun @ 97
Well, thank God the Dems are in charge now. Bastards.
Someone please throw a blanket over me…
It’s probably a little pathetic how much that Youtube inspires me. But I still love it. I recently found that the schoolhouse rock “America” series actually IS required viewing for many students in middle school.
I have always felt it should be. Thanks Christy, now off the the phones!
38 nays on confirmation, 35 nays on cloture.
Who are the rats? If they didn’t want him confirmed, they could have stopped him on cloture.
My head is exploding!
We already live in a police state. The people in Congress are rich, and most of them are laughing at us “little people.” They simply don’t care. As has been said here before, money is the answer. I told a phone banker from the DNC that I would give no money to the Dems, because they no longer represent my views. It might be, that we all need to write letters to our congress critters explaining that they work for us, and not for King George…..and to follow it up with massively refusing to give the Dems any money.
When asked why he was defecting from the Soviet Union (a number of years ago), Arkedy Shevchenko answered “Because the gang in power in Russia do not represent Russia. They are little better than common criminals.” The Congress and the Supreme court have become enablers. The Dem leadership is the worst of the enablers. Pelosi needs to go (Sheehan needs to be given a chance), DiFi needs to go (I’m sure Moveon could come up with someone whose connections to Bechtel were nonexistant, Reid needs to go. If those three go, and we get people in there who can take the stick away from the king, then we might have a chance.
The thing that scares me, is that the King’s remark about “those who don’t want WWIII had better not let Iran continue with Nuclear weapons. He wasn’t talking to the rest of the world. He was talking to Russia. Russia gave him their answer as covered on NBC the other night. They have started to test fly their sleek new supersonic bombers and play “chicken” with the British. Carefully, of course, but it is a very serious warning. The Kings government stresses loyalty to the king. Loyalty is a dangerous thing. It keeps out perspective when a situation has come to the point where someone has to take a maniac’s hand off the World War III button. Our king is behaving like Hitler…..and you know what happened to the Nazi’s. Maybe all monies should be sent to Moveon.org, I don’t know. But it is no longer a question of losing the republic. We have lost it. It is a question of taking it back, before the crazies in Washington start WWIII, which is the direction in which they are heading.
If Plame has something to say about Iran, I’m listening. This was her area of professional responsibility.
59-38…in favor
It is a good time to remind everyone that the numbers in the Senate are evenly divided — and that includes Lieberman as the fulcrum. (ugh)
No excuse for not having better leadership — but this isn’t a situation where we have a Democratic cake walk either. We can certainly do much better than we are doing at the moment — but it will take a larger margin than zero to make that happen on any given day. And, the fact is, the GOP caucus is far more unified than the Dem one. We’ve got a lot of work to do…
egregious @ 103
She can’t say very much about Iran. She’s said as much a couple of days ago. And also last night on Countdown.
BobbyG — that one skates far too close to the line…let’s not become the asshats, shall we?
I’m absolutely not surprised at DiFi. It’s exactly what I expected her to do.
Can we read these people out of the party, if they can’t vote the way the majority of people want?
Can we pressure them in any way at all that they can understand?
Can we at least get through to them that they’re failing the people who voted them into office?
and is there any reason we should be surprised? It’s the street, people. Why isn’t the entire nation clogging the streets of DC? Sorry to be a bore, but does anyone actually think anything else is going to make a difference. ?? Just consider what we’ve learned in retrospect over the last forty years — it’s ALWAYS worse than we thought it was, the corruption, the power grabs, the waste of human life and treasure. When is everyone going to get it. ?? It’s always worse than you think it is. They’re always more clever than you think they’ll be, the ones who disdain We the People. Our option? It’s the street, stupid.
affectionately, mouse
Is this vote the nomination of Southwick to the Fifth Circuit?
Remember that the Democrats already blocked one of Bush’s recommendations, and that guy was worse than Southwick.
It’s not like Bush is going to nominate anyone which I would favor anyway. Democrats can keep blocking nomination processes and get mired with that term of slowing down government processes (not really that bad of an idea, but has its negatives), or they can block once or twice, but they are going to have to agree to someone Bush suggests eventually..
I guess, senate democrats figured Southwick was the best they could get, or another nomination wasn’t going to be any better.
oddmommy @ 85
I also so a clip of an interview where she said giving false nuke blue prints to Iran was a good idea. I think James Risen (source?) wrote that the false nuke plans contained a few mistakes that could be caught and turned into a real plan. Perhaps a lot of CIA officers drink a kind of koolaid, even if it’s not entirely neocon Koolaid. Oh brother, sorta reminds me of AlHaig seething at the malevolence of the (former?) Soviet Union *still* to this day.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 106
All true…but still, there is a need to vent the frustration.
P J Evans @ 109
Reid is up in ‘10. I read his approval numbers have been dropping. What are the Democrats like out in Nevada?
Well, what you say above is true in theory… To vote them out requires unrigged elections and unrigged voting machines. Freedom to assemble? Only if you have a permit or stay within your “Free Speech Zone”. To speak up? Yeah, if you don’t mind being labeled a traitor and getting your name on a watch list and/or the no-fly list (I rather suspect it is impossible to be on a watch list and NOT be on the no-fly list).
CHS @ 106:
I’m not discouraged. But then there are days like this one.
This is going to be a long fight, and I predict that we will lose most of the major battles along the way. What we don’t lose by fighting is the dream and the example, which will not go away, and will be there for future Americans (hopefully not too far in the future) to pick up and use. The Progressive movement is all this country has left that is just, decent, and conservative to its origins. We have to keep speaking out, and be prepared to pay the price of that speech.
Biodun @ 104
So, then we need to list the Dems in that lot, and they need to be “targeted,” and it’s going to take some doing to put up and fund people to run against them. But I’ll bet it can be done if enough of us try.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 108
My Bad. Withdrawn. Take it down. Irascible pre-caffeine gut reaction. But, it was clearly not literal.
cynic;
Your assessment is most sober. It reflects clear-headed thinking and a genuine grasp of reality. Other people will take somewhat longer to recognize these truths. It is a timely question as to whether they will understand soon enough. We can hope.
Can’t linger, but I am sorry that the day has such a bummer in it. Feinstein and Lieberman: with friends like these, eh? Considering them lost causes, who were the two or three votes closest to being swayed to our side?
I missed a vote on cloture from someone. I’m registering no vote from the following: Boxer, Dodd, Cornyn and Kennedy. Am assuming Kennedy is still out from his surgery? Whose vote did I miss among the other three? Anyone know?
Plame said, I believe, that there is no doubt that Iran is trying to develop a nuke.
What I would like to know is why are there no “Plames” trying to stop the nuke proliferation of the good old USofA? Jeez we got 10,000 of them or more.
What’s wrong with this picture?
I think Today’s Meredith Vierira’s interview of Valerie Plame Wilson was the best, the most neutral the most serious interview that I have heard.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21417310/
Both Katie Couric and Fresh Air’s Terri Gross attempted to belittle Valerie Plame Wilsons service to this country. They just did not seem to get just how serious and important Valerie’s work was.
Meredith Vieira really gets it!
Byrd voted “aye” for confirmation.
Did he vote “aye” or “nay” for cloture?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 106
I am not discouraged. Compared to where we were just a few years ago? Progress is slow. It takes time to build, less to destroy. And of course the Reptilicans have the destructive advantage.
Kathleen @ 124:
Agreed. But when Plame was at the Lake I goofed and said Lauer, not Meredith. I did watch it. But my brain had some cobwebs that day…
“The threat is real, said Plame, who had been working for the CIA on nuclear proliferation issues before her career ended after she was “outed.” Vieira asked her, “Given what you know, are we headed toward war in Iran?”
“There’s no doubt Iran has intent and it’s malevolent,” Plame said of that country’s nuclear aspirations, a topic of intense scrutiny by the Bush White House and debate around the world.
Vieira then asked if the administration is capable of twisting intelligence again to rush into war in Iran.
“I do,” said Plame.”
The I-lobby is one of the critical components of that twisting of intelligence.
Not true at all. NO ONE needs to be confirmed into ANY judicial seat until after Bush leaves. The GOP demonstrated that this is fully possible during the entire Clinton Administration. No one is dying right now because the seat that Southwick would sit in is empty (but many may well die as a result of Southwick being confirmed, the overly eager hanging judge that he is) and the country would muddle through without ANYONE in that seat until the next President comes along.
This, of course, requires a Democrap Party that is actually in opposition to Bush and the GOP, which is NOT the case right now. There are a LOT of Dems that need to be unseated ASAP.
I don’t think we should give any money to the political process. It is only enabling these slackers to look for the fattest donors.
We need to get money out of politics and enforce term limits.
Heard a bit of Larry Sabato’s ideas for a new constitution. We need to consider a constitution of , for and by the people as this one is basically useless now and has been corrupted and perverted to serve the rich.
SanderO @ 122
Link please. I have never heard Plame say anything like that. I believe what you just stated is hogwash. Link please?
SanderO @ 122
Well if they are, according to James Risen (source?) it’s because the CIA handed them blue prints that contained only a few mistakes.
Kathleen @ 129
Motive is one thing–means is another. The question of whether Iran would like to go nuclear pales next to the question of whether Iran has the resources and the technological capacity to go nuclear. I realize that BushCo thinks motive is reason enough to go in shooting–they used Saddam’s alleged motive as an excuse–but BushCo’s opinions should not be confused in any way with reasoned response.
I’m with cynic…
And I am a cynic. If you open your eyes and see what is there… you see it’s all kabuki. We don’t have a democracy. Prove me wrong.
David W. Bartoo @ 120
The thing I don’t understand (unless she is a totally bought and paid for woman) is that Condi is an expert in the old Soviet Union, and it’s the same gang running Russia right now. Does King George listen to anyone, because right now, she, of all people, should be opposing the king behind closed doors if that’s what it takes, but opposing him. He’s endangering everyone. Of course, maybe my analysis of Rice is way off base, and she’s not smart, or she’s too power hungry to see what’s going on, but Gawd, if there was ever a danger of a mushroom cloud, it is now. One final note, then I’ll shut up. I’m depressing myself. The nature of all of the U.S. ICBMs is ballistic, that is, once it’s away, you can’t change its course. The nature of all of our missile defenses are based on ballistics. And they might work (of course, they don’t take wind drift into account), but several months ago, Russia tested a missile that flies at nearly twice the speed of sound and can make course corrections. Which means that a defending pilot would have to get awfully lucky to shoot down one of those monsters, and our conventional defenses are useless. They should move the clock up to 2 seconds to midnight.
Kathleen @ 131:
She definitely said that. (I watched her say that.) I’ll dig up a link for sure.
I heard Val say that on TV the other night. Was it Olbermann? I’m pretty sure that is what I heard her say… that they were definitely after nukes.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 121
Someone, do tell.
SanderO @ 137
I heard her say that on KO last night.
This is a reeeeally good idea…….
THE Bush Administration is considering air strikes, including cruise missiles, against the Kurdish rebel group PKK in northern Iraq.
The move would be an attempt to stave off a Turkish invasion of that country to fight the rebels.
President George Bush spoke with Turkish President Abdullah Gul by phone yesterday in an effort to ease the crisis.
(snip)
Kathleen,
What I want to know is why Plame is working to prevent OTHER nations from getting nukes when we have 10,000 of them, we have used them, we are using DU and we have threatened to use them on the battlefield and in pre emptive strikes.
Which nation is a nuclear threat?
You tell me.
SanderO @ 137
See my 136. Countdown transcript not up yet.
SanderO @ 136
I remain skeptical. Not only that I wonder as EvilDrPuma said, motive, means and also just studying nuke plans is all mixed up.
I question the motivation of ANYONE who would work for the CIA.
Seriously…. where’s that at?
It’s born of a paranoid view of the world, ain’t it?
EvilDrPuma @ 113
a thought occurs to me. is it possible all these blogs, as useful as they are, are just that — a way of venting the fury that should be demonstrating itself in the streets of DC? i don’t give a dime to MoveON anymore. They’ve got their own power center derrieres to cover now. If they organized a huge demonstration in DC that would be one thing. But they don’t. They’re playing by the rules now too. Who will lead us all into the streets? Who has the courage to be our Our Gandhi? Our Martin? Plenty of Tom Paine’s, but he was a writer. Plenty of thoughts out there, good ones, but no actor to unite us all. Instead we “vent” and are momentarily sated. Is this dangerous? Is it deliberate? Are we all fools? Is blogging just an anodyne to keep utter despair at bay while the whole thing implodes off the MSM screen? Anybody got a clue here? Where is OUR leadership? I’ve read somewhere there isn’t any; that we must do it ourselves. Who will start the ball rolling? What are we really willing to risk? What would we do if someone came in our home and robbed us blind in our presence? Because that’s what’s happening. Would we just sit at our screens and complain? “What then must we do?”
Further to my 42:
Watch the video of Plame and Olbermann here.
Or let’s put it another way…
You’ve decided to work for the CIA or they recruit you… what do they look for in a CIA person? What is the “company” all about?
You tell me.
I’ve been waiting for Larry Johnson to answer that one for 2 years. He dodges it.
Let’s face it Plame is pretty conservative. I got that sense in the live blogging. I still remain sympathetic to her.
EvilDrPuma @ 133
The only salient question, IMHO, is whether an Iran armed with a small handful of nukes (essentially untestable, BTW) would be willing to risk utter incineration by brandishing them with offensive intent. Having such an arsenal would certainly serve as an effective deterrent to attack and/or invasion by Bu’ush types and regional hostiles, OTOH.
When I ponder and rank-order the things I should be rationally concerned with, Iran with nukes, while something I would not care to see, doesn’t make the short list.
SanderO @ 129
The one we have worked pretty well, until we let the GOoPers start running candidates who were ‘friendly’ ranther than competent.
I’d like to add an anti-nepotism amendment, though.
Something along the lines of (no legalspeak here), if your parent, brother or sister, aunt or uncle, son or daughter, niece or nephew, or first cousin, was elected president or vice-president, then you’re barred.
SanderO @ 143
Sometime last year, I flipped on the tv and saw Al Haig ranting and raving about the Soviet Union er . . . Russia. No it wasn’t a flashback to the 80s.
mui @ 148
That’s because you recognize that neither her politics nor anything else justifies what BushCo has done to her. And that’s more than we could expect from the Thugs.
EvilDrPuma @ 133:
Iran by itself does not have the means. But Russia has been helping them. That’s why BushCo has been pressuring Putin to stop helping them. But so far Putin hasn’t bulged.
SanderO @ 146
Read Valeries book.
WOW kittyKitty, how right you are… all this whining and phone calling, and nickle and dimes to Blue candidates is a total waste of time.
The people need to get into the streets and make a very clear and unequivocal statement that they won’t take this shit. Let them shoot us as they did in Kent State.
We have no leaders, and we are cowards. Even the brilliant and well intentioned bloggers.
We are well past the “play nice” rules.
We need direct action. We need to TAKE … I said it TAKE our government back.
Tom Paine.. where are you?
Kittykitty at 144- I hear you. I agree completely; it’s time. Because soon it’ll be too late.
From the Countdown video:
Plame: “There is no doubt that Iran has malevolent intent. There’s no doubt that it is seeking nuclear weapons. There’s no question about that.”
Biodun, that word, it doesn’t mean what you think it means. I think you meant ‘budged’. Although I suspect Putin does bulge.
kittykitty @ 145
The streets solve nothing. Money is everything. money on several levels. And while I’m at it, we don’t need a new Constitution. We have a perfectly good one, we the people are just letting the gang in power in both parties subvert it. That is a matter for the voting booth and the ad campaigns.
If this is going to be a fight, so be it, but we have to learn to play hard ball. Liberals (myself included) aren’t very good at political hardball. We have to learn, and learn quickly. The blogs are, perhaps, the only honest voice out here. No one said this wasn’t going to be a nasty fight, but the streets is the wrong place to fight it. When it gets to that point, if it ever does, I’m leaving the country, because it can only end badly, no matter which side prevails.
P J Evans @ 158
gollum on steroids?
You read her book… give me the short answer.
Both Wilson and Plame were republicans.
I don’t like the republican “meme”… so they are late to the “party”… I’m not terribly impressed. She and Joe were treated like poo, and didn’t deserve that. But pukes don’t care, they eat their own. So they left the GOP.
I would like to see the CIA taken down and the FBI too.
P J Evans @ 158
707! Yep. Thanks for the correx.
SanderO @ 122
Sander O can you please provide a link to where Valerie Plame Wilson has said “I believe, that there is no doubt that Iran is trying to develop a nuke” Where, when? I think your statement rings hollow and is more of the inflammatory rhetoric.
Numerous middle east nations have been pushing a Nuclear weapons free zone (NWFZ) in the middle east for years.
http://72.14.205.104/custom?q=…..-10_en.pdf Iran asking for a nuclear free middle east zone&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=google-coop-np
26.
Mr. OTHMAN (Syrian Arab Republic) commended the efforts undertaken by the Director
General during his visits to the Middle East. Unfortunately, as reported in document GC(49)/18, he
Page 6
GC(49)/OR.10
30 September 2005, Page 4
had made no progress in securing implementation of resolution GC(48)/RES/16 since Israel had still
not acceded to the NPT or placed all its nuclear facilities under Agency safeguards. It continued to link
the Israeli nuclear issue and the question of regional security with progress in the peace process,
although the only reason that the peace negotiations referred to in the preceding year’s General
Conference resolution had been at a standstill for several years was Israel’s continued refusal to
resume the talks from the point at which they had been halted.
At that same conference
“69.
Ms. HUSSAIN (Malaysia), supporting the position taken by the Arab Member States, said that
her country was in favour of the early establishment of a zone free of weapons of mass destruction in
Page 12
GC(49)/OR.10
30 September 2005, Page 10
the Middle East, in accordance with Security Council resolutions 487 (1981) and 687 (1991) and the
relevant General Assembly resolutions adopted by consensus.
70.
Pending the establishment of such a zone, Malaysia called on Israel, the only country in the
region not to have joined the NPT or declared its intention to do so, to renounce possession of its
nuclear weapons and accede to the NPT without delay. Malaysia also urged Israel promptly to place
all its nuclear facilities under comprehensive Agency safeguards and to conduct its nuclear-related
activities in conformity with the non-proliferation regime.
71.
In its capacity as Chairman of NAM and Chairman of the Organization of the Islamic
Conference, Malaysia re-emphasized the need for an NWFZ in the Middle East. She recalled the
declaration made by the NAM Heads of Government or State at the NAM Summit in Kuala Lumpur in
February 2003, reiterating their support for the establishment of a zone free from weapons of mass
destruction, expressing their concern about the acquisition of nuclear capability by Israel, which posed
a serious and continuing threat to the security of neighbouring and other States, and condemning Israel
for continuing to develop and stockpile nuclear arsenals. They believed that stability could not be
achieved in a region where massive imbalances in military capabilities were maintained, particularly
through the possession of nuclear weapons which allowed one party to threaten its neighbours and the
region.
72.
Malaysia called on all the parties concerned to take urgent and practical steps towards the
creation of an NWFZ in the Middle East”
Bustednuckles @ 153
Do you have a spoiler for us?
Biodun @ 157
The second sentence comprises a blinding glimpse of the obvious. The first is uselessly imprecise for any rational risk response consideration.
Kathleen @ 128
The reason I mentioned Plame’s “malevolent” quote is because you keep saying that no one ever listens to all that GOOD stuff about Iran — because everyone is such tools of the “I-Lobby.” That’s all.
[I must be out of my f******g mind to be doing this again]
How about we have a world wide destruction of all nukes?
How’se that for a position for ms Plame to lose sleep over?
cynic- so we should just wait out the term? That’s your suggestion? Because Bush is going to start WWIII. Personally, I refuse to let that happen. Not on my watch. I want to be able to look my children in the eye, much like Ms. Plame said, and tell them that I was on the front lines when it mattered. Waiting for “elections” is giving up – especially in light of the subversion of our electoral system. Voting isn’t the answer any more; they’ve taken that away from us through unchecked corruption. I’m tired of waiting. Tired of enabling. The longer “we the people” stay silent, the longer we are enablers. Plain and simple.
SanderO @ 137
Proof where is it..this is more “inflammatory rhetori” or what folks in my neck of the woods call hogwash or a lie.
you seen Antwerp, you’ve seen ‘em all: Putin on the Ritz in Bulge ‘em.
oddmommy @ 165
;>) Sigh.
BobbyG @ 165
Link
Kathleen @ 167:
Please, please see my 156! And please do some research before making all these statements!
Kathleen:
Link in 145!
In homage to the Billionaires for Bush, I would like to propose a shredder convention at the National Archives.
Anyone else have a shredder that they want to take to DC for a little busman’s holiday?
A parade that makes its own confetti; just think of the possibilities!
SanderO:
I believe the answer to this question is crystal clear: the nuclear threat is the country that remains the ONLY country to EVER use nukes…and use them in a first strike at that. Take that historical fact and add to it the statements of Bush/Cheney (and advisors) that try to claim that nukes should be seen as no different than any other munition and should be perfectly fine for use in hardened “bunker busting”.
As for cynic:
Putin stated some time ago (shortly after Bush killed the ABM Treaty) that they would develop and field ICBMs that could defeat our ABM system. The system mentioned was maneuverable ICBM warheads (which are hypersonic) and now, what you mention, supersonic defensive maneuver capable cruise missiles.
It is actually rather easy for a state to defeat and ABM system so long as they have a rather large arsenal. For a country with a tiny nuke arsenal, it depends on the number of ABMs available and the number launched. Even without terminal maneuverability, it can be a trick to nail incoming warheads if there is a large number of decoys mixed with a few real deals. You have to be able to take out ALL the decoys plus the real deals…or be able to tell the decoys from the real deals which is a subject of much research and development (with mixed success).
I do not agree with Plame on Iran seeking nukes. I have no doubt that there is a US-created impetus for Iran to see having nukes as advantageous and even a Good Thing(tm) but the difference between seeing how having a few could be of enormous advantage and actually working to get them are totally different things. So far, in direct contravention to what Plame sadly stated, the IAEA has repeatedly stated that there is NO evidence that Iran is actively seeking nuke weapons. That is the only thing that matters, NOT desire or recognition that having them could be a positive under current circumstances.
I also have no doubt that there are members of the Iranian government that would very much like to get nukes, just as there are many that seek NOT to. You know, kinda like the fact that there are fledgling war criminals in the US government and military that actively wants to US nukes again. I’ve looked at the sites that are the target sites…and at least one of them is IN Tehran. You CANNOT take the site out without a lot of murder of civilians, and that is with a conventional strike. Using a nuke to do it? Same thing as hitting Hiroshima and Nagasaki only much worse because it would be the second crime against humanity the USA has committed. To say nothing of the wonders it would do for obtaining “regime change” in Iran into anything resembling something Bush/Cheney would LIKE. Of course, even without using nukes, the same applies.
Kathleen,
Have you seen the citations above? WAKE UP.. PLAME SAID IT.
I think joining the CIA is not such a great thing to tell your kids…
Different stokes.
Gandhi would join the CIA, nor MLK, nor Mandela…
Look at the great CIA people. Philip Agee saw the light.
Biodun @ 174
146
Ah punaise, the only problem is my sudden need for brain bleach!
Countdown video listening now
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/
Crikey, Kathleen it’s one theme all the time. Here’s another:rabid commie haters like Al Haig and NOT influence in the least by Israel > Neocons.)
punaise…punaise…punaise… Tu es vraiment charmant…
oddmommy @ 165
May I join you in banging my head on the keyboard?
SanderO @ 176
Dude, you are off the chart.
Kathleen @ 180
She did say it and I sincerely apologize to Sander O.
So Plames statement contradicts what Iaea El Baradei is saying, what Flynt Leverett is saying and what Scott Ritter is saying.
This is the very first time I have heard her say this in the last four days.
I apologize again to Sander O
browncoat @ 168
No, that’s not what I said. We SHOULD NOT wait out the term. We need to start with a constant pressure called money. And we need to do it now. There is nothing quite so scary to a politician who sees people on their own side beginning to mobilize against them. The Dem leadership might be rich, but they are not using their own money to run for office. The streets will give the king the excuse he needs to start filling the camps. He’s put all the wheels in place. I was in Berkley in the 60s, the cops started most of the trouble. It was the cops who broke the windows and then teargassed a whole bunch of demonstrators. It was really interesting to watch. I was also in Nam, and you don’t get much done with your own gun…..and a gun isn’t very useful to the political process. As someone has said quite often…here and elsewhere….when you have a bully with a stick, you don’t cower, you take it away from him and beat him to a bloody pulp.
It can be done without riots. It can be done with money. Remember, there are a lot of “Republicans” who are just as upset as we are about what’s going on.
Having been in a couple of “street efforts” myself, I don’t think much of them. Whereas I don’t think Nixon or Johnson would have taken the approach of “well, just shoot everyone,” King George will. And that’s exactly what we can’t afford. This guy has gotta be stopped, but it has to be done with a very sharp political knife. Not with guns and rocks.
Bushbot will do what he wants. As he always does and then putting the jack back in the box will take 1000 times more work.
He will strike at Iran, just looking for an acceptable pretense.
Mark my words. He (and his people) has a pattern of behavior.
Kathleen @ 184:
Well-done. I mean that. No snark.
mui @ 180
Silly mui. EVERYBODY knows that anyone who holds power in this country is a tool of the International Zionist Conspiracy.
Biodun @ 181:
je fais comme je peux…
I was all set to work in a Haig / Hague reference, but that’s next door in the Netherlands.
Off the charts?
I’m off the go along whiny charts.
No Prob Kathleen. Plame has been put on a pedestal and we need to see she is also part of the problem.
If you’re a hammer every problem is a nail. Go girl stop nuke proliferation… it’s out there.
The USA is the nuke problem in the world today.
WE ARE THE PROBLEM.
My issue with Plame’s statement:
pg194 State of War. James Risen
And it get’s worse/better.
SanderO @ 154
Who exactly is prevetning you from marching? Like today?
browncoat @ 168
thanks, browncoat. Don’t know how many of you were in the streets in the 60s or 70s, but there is a power in that expression that no amount of money (and let’s face it, none of us have enough to compete, and won’t) can buy. Jefferson said revolution every twenty years if needed. And he wasn’t talking about elections. Those guys weren’t stupid. They knew our weaknesses. It scares me as much as anyone to step forward. But if there’s one thing history teaches us, it’s that sooner or later someone will have to die, go to jail, or get hit on the head to defend an ideal for it to take hold in the minds of the people. Which of us will that be? Me? You? Remember what it took for the nation to wake up to racism. Fire hoses on innocent young demonstrators who asked for nothing more than to be treated with dignity. Franklin told us it’s our republic — “IF you can keep it”. Can we? Taking it back means TAKING IT BACK, not waiting for someone to tell you you have can have your rights back. NATIONAL STRIKE on election day is a good first move. Vote if you like, but nix on shopping, going to work, school, etc. shut it all down except for the voting booths. Read about it in Harpers last month. It’s a start.
xx
This could get interesting….
BAGHDAD (AFP) – The Iraqi government announced on Wednesday that it has decided to formally revoke the immunity from prosecution granted to private security companies operating in the war-ravaged country.
link
yo SanderO — given your comments above, may I humbly venture to wonder if you might sympathize with my bewilderment at the gushing lovefest of hero-worship poured forth here at Book Salon the other day? The lady was a victim of the brutal thuggery of this regime — yes, absolutely. But since when does victim equal hero???
Busednuckles @ 183:
He’s not the only one…*g*
oddmommy @ 188
Don’t forget Those Chinese *scream*
Praedor Atrebates : You’re right. It was hypersonic. I misspoke.
I called both Obama and Clinton HQ. Clinton’s people answered and kicked me immediately into voicemail (”Dear valued customer,…”) while Obama’s people took down my info & comment – or clicked convincingly in the background – and gave me a little info on his position. Obama seems to be making better use of his money. Or maybe Hillary just can’t be bothered with peasants (unless they’re phantom peasants in Chinatown).
Peterr is upstairs but is taking no comments. I was ready to grab the zed…*g*
Book Salon announcement.
cynic- I agree with you. Guns and rocks are counterproductive and well, silly. However, I don’t think we can win with money. They have a lot more than we do, and they own a lot of the media. It’s like the doors song: “they got the guns but we’ve got the numbers.” So how do we use that? It can be peacefully. Line a huge group of people outside of congress, so the senators have to see them every time there’s a session. Silence can be much more powerful than words – a silent crowd, all holding a candle, would make a huge statement. Or, just shut down the beltway. Repeatedly. With many masses of people. Non-violent, effective, revolutionary.
1. Part of the problem is, that we expect our Congress critters to be as smart as we are. Most of them aren’t. You don’t need brains to run for office, just a burning desire to win.
2. I don’t think that much of Plame. I don’t think that much of Wilson either. I do, however, think a lot of some of the people who work for the CIA, because they are smart. Not that they are listened to, but they genuinely have the interest of the country at heart, and when they get killed, all I can say is, well, at least they went into it with their eyes open, and we’re conducting our policy and our strategy at a level that is below the radar so-to-speak.
There are a lot of people out there who wish us ill (many quite rightly, given our foreign policy for the last 100 years), but the King doesn’t know who they are, and doesn’t listen to the CIA. That is one of the things that scares me. We have a fool leading the nation, and it can only end badly.
I think if we have another day like today this week, we might all be off the charts…
kittykitty- you nailed it again, thank you. :)
You’re a credit to your generation Christy. Thanks for all you do.
Tintin: Des Belges! Des Belges!
O.K lets go with what Valerie said on Countdown about Iran ” no doubt that there is malevolent intent on behalf of Iran, that they are seeking nuclear weapons there is no question about that”, even though this statement is in direct contradiction to what Iaea’s El Baradei has said about Iran. Let’s to with what Valerie said.
Then why not talk about how many other nations in the middle east fell threatened by Israel and have endlessly brought up (at the Iaea conferences)” creating a NFWZ in the middle east. Why not bring these persistent efforts up. Why not talk about the threat that these nations feel with the massive amount of Israel’s stockpiles of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons that go unclaimed and uninspected.
Why not discuss the threat that these nations feel from Israel.
Israeli nuclear capabilities and threat
http://72.14.205.104/custom?q=…..7-6_en.pdf Israel threat to the middle east&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=google-coop-np
EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM ON ISRAELI NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES AND
THREAT SUBMITTED BY THE MEMBER STATES IN THE
LEAGUE OF ARAB STATES
1. An item on Israeli nuclear capabilities and threat has been on the agenda of the General
Conference of the International Atomic Energy Agency for a number of years, and the Conference has
repeatedly adopted resolutions calling upon Israel to place its nuclear installations under Agency
safeguards.
In 1992 the Conference endorsed the President’s statement that “… in view of the peace process
already under way in the Middle East, the aim of which was to conclude a comprehensive and just
peace in the region, and which included in particular discussions on the establishment of a
nuclear-weapon-free zone in the Middle East, it would be desirable not to consider the present agenda
item at the thirty-sixth regular session.”
2. The policies of the present Israeli Government have obstructed the peace process in the Middle
East and all initiatives to free the region of the Middle East of weapons of mass destruction, and in
particular of nuclear weapons, have failed.
3. In May 1995, the Review and Extension Conference of the Parties to the Treaty on the
Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons adopted a resolution on the Middle East expressing the concern
of the States Party to the Treaty at the dangerous situation in the Middle East resulting from the
presence in the region of nuclear activities not subject to IAEA safeguards, which put regional and
international peace and security at risk.
OddMom
yea that was my reaction.
Too afraid of the CIA.
Too willing to harp on that her career was ruined. Her career or the safety of a nation?
Let’s be real here. She was used as political football as was Joe W.
But I have yet to see some real push back on the REAL ISSUES.
I gotta go.
Give it a rest. Now give it a rest.
ok , last word for me today. work to do.
Re the Iran thing: wanna see how it could all unfold? Need something to convince your friends, family, how dangerous this can all be? check out the BBC film made in the 80s (netflix has it) called “Threads”. But you better have some lunesta on hand afterwords.
again: if you haven’t gone to http://www.libertynewstv.com
and watched Pax Americana 2031, check that too. Send it to anyone who doesn’t get it yet. Scifi, true, but we all know Mr. Orwell nailed it way before anyone else.
xx
cynic @ 203
This question of how smart or intelligent people who are ‘players’really are is very important.
Some who, of late, have been lionized are evidently worthy of that scrutiny. I assumed that John Dean had reason to view Valerie quite highly, for example. But the statements I have seen attributed to her today have not impressed me. SanderO is closer to the real truth, regarding nuclear weaponry, than Valerie. Most of the ‘players’ exhibit a too- easy acceptance of the status quo and not enough world and life-conscious vision.
thank you, David @ 70
oddmommy @ 166
I have never ever said “that no one ever listens to all that Good Stuff about Iran, because everone is such tools of the I-lobby”. I have never said anything like this.
Here is what I said about the I-lobby today back at 133 “the I-lobby is one of the critical components of that twisting of intelligence” that Valerie Plame referred to.
Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. That is wrong and you know it.
mui @ 181
That is horsecrap. Today there is a hearing about the middle east. Too bad you are unable to discuss this issue honestly and go on attack mode.
punaise @ 169
That’s as bad as any I’ve met lately!Respectfully, I request defenestration of you. Or something. A couple of buck to the Pun Fund, maybe.
Over at Making Light, a commenter is trying to get support for an ad in the NYT on torture and Shrub. It’s in the thread This is who we are. (If it isn’t funded by a formal group, maybe it wouldn’t become a target?)
Kathleen @ 214
nope, you said way upthread that congress critters don’t listen to certain people you named — who I can only assume, from the context of your statement, speak sympathetically of Iran — because they only listen to I-Lobby. That is the gist of what you said. I didn’t purport to be quoting you.
I don’t doubt that Iran would build the bomb if they had the ability to build the bomb.
A nuclear power plant is the first step. That’s the hard part.
Iran is still a theocracy, and it’s not necessarily a bastion of progressive ideals, so I don’t trust them with a bomb at all. There is a large amount of the population in Iran which is secular or having secular views, but the core of the top is hardline Islam, and their leader Ahmadinejad is as stupid and insane as Bush.
He thinks in order to have U.S. and other countries take him seriously, he needs a nuclear bomb. And I don’t believe for a second that Ahmadinejad wants nuclear power plants just for energy.
Kathleen @ 208
And that’s the crux of the biscuit. When we agree to start the debate with an assumption that isn’t necessarily true, we’ve already lost the debate. Iran has clearly stated that they believe nuclear weapons to be against their religious beliefs.
Now, unlike our pseudo-theocratic leaders, I think the leaders of Iran take their religion much more seriously.
Now I wouldn’t base an opinion simply on their say-so, but when you combine that with what IAEA’s El Baradei has said, I think the case is getting stronger.
And then of course you have to consider that even if they DID have a nuclear weapon, they wouldn’t be much of a threat to us.
So to me the two important points are:
1) Iran probably doesn’t really have an interest in developing a nuclear weapon.
2) And even if they did, they are no match for the US of A.
I stand by this statement
Fresh thread, and let’s try a little less invective directed at each other, and more discussion on what we ought to be doing to change things. What do you say?
Kathleen @ 220
This was not the subject of the thread. We keep losing sight of that. Kathleen, please stop pushing this. Some day soon someone is going to say something that can’t be taken back or apologized for and damage will be done to all. Enough !
oddmommy @ 188
And if I listen to what Odd mommy has to say the I-lobby has no influence what so ever on US foreign policy in the middle east.
Cancer Cures @ 218
What nation established the precedent that possessing nuclear weaponry encourages others to take a nation ’seriously’? What other measure have we allowed? To say that the Iranian leadership is as crazy as our own is not comforting in either direction. Which nation is currently more dangerous?
SufiLizard @ 219
is that a Zappa biscuit?
218
We built nuclear bombs in the 1940s, without nuclear power plants. It’s a lot of work, but it’s do-able. That seems to be the route that Iran is going down: lots of centrifuges. It’s not even all that secret: I know someone who was reading stuff in the open shelves at his local college, twenty years ago.
Personally I’m more worried about an unstable state like Pakistan having nuclear weapons (which we know beyond a shadow of doubt).
If terrorists were to obtain and use a nuclear weapon any time in the near future, I would say it would most likely come from Pakistan, followed by some of the former Soviet states like Khasakstan or Uzbekistan.
Kathleen @ 223
Kathleen, perhaps it’s time for you to consider why your comments seem to frequently elicit such strong negative responses.
Cuz quite honestly, it ain’t about Israel, or Palestine, or Iran.
Biodun @ 187
I have no problem with apologizing and have several times here at FDL.
SufiLizard @ 227
What moral leverage has our nation to encourage a change from this scenario?
P J Evans @ 225
*i think*
- nuclear power plants (or small nuclear reactors) are used to make plutonium (not a naturally available element)
- centrifuges are for purifying uranium.
- plutonium bombs are hard to make.
- uranium bombs are much easier.
two kinds of nukes, with different methods for obtaining the required material.
where’s prof foland when we need him? *g*
Twain @ 222
I will not be personally attacking anyone, I don’t know about you.
I was just writing what was being said at the hearing, and then making personal comments. People go ot all of the time ALL OF THE TIME.. This was a critically important hearing and I know the FDL team is unable to cover all issues.
RBG @ 228
That was mean and unnecessary.
Kathleen @ 215
Wow. you impugn my honour.
Kathleen @ 233
It was neither. It was my personal opinion based on an extensive reading of your comments here at FDL and the reactions those comments frequently engender.
Perhaps you should consider my words instead of being immediately dismissive.
No proof of nuclear weapons program in Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,130
4406,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2171099,0
0.html
UN nuclear boss warns warmongers over Iran
Peter Walker, Mark Tran and agencies
Monday September 17, 2007
Guardian Unlimited
Mohamed ElBaradei
Mohamed ElBaradei says there should be no talk of the use of force.
The head of the UN’s nuclear agency today warned against any increase in “hype” about war with Iran, saying countries should heed the lessons of the build-up to the Iraq conflict.
The strongly worded comments by Mohamed ElBaradei, who runs the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), followed a warning by the French foreign minister that the world should brace itself for a possible war with Iran.
Israeli nuclear capabilities and threat
http://72.14.205.104/custom?q=…..7-6_en.pdf israel threat to peace in the middle east&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=google-coop-np
Nanny nanny nanny.
Actually, RBG put that in very neutral terms. Please notice how easily riled you can become. Kathleen, I have no axe to grind with you. Please, will you take some time to reflect in neutrality on what others might have to say?
Kathleen — fwiw, I do believe you are motivated by a sincere passion for justice when you talk about the ME.
There are others who comment here on the subject of Israel of whom that can’t be said.
That is why I find broad and sweeping statements about the “I-Lobby” and its influence so disturbing. There are many powerful interests controlling what goes on this country, and what it does in the ME, whose influence is much greater.
Just for disclosure, in case you are not aware,
RBG is the site manager here at FDL and has access to every comment ever put up.
When he says he has read your comments extensively, he is very serious.
I know, he blows me away with what he comes up with.
mui @ 233
I’m here to defend it, mui! Whom should I slay? (speaking METAPHORICALLY, of course)
Bustednuckles @ 239
cool! The actual Man Behind The Curtain!
Bustednuckles @ 240
If any one knows of a good 12 step program for that addiction, I’m open to hearing about it.
Kathleen @ 236
It’s only a matter of time before Israel loses their nuclear monopoly in the middle east. That is inevitable.
Among the factors that will hasten the day are the bullying of Israel’s neighbors by the U.S. and Israel. If having nukes is the only way to get respect, then by god more people will have nukes.
Notice the deference that the Bush Administration shows toward Pakistan, whose Intelligence Service literally set up and armed the Taliban and which protects Bin Laden to this day. Why the deference to this exporter of terrorism? The answer seems obvious.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 221
From this northern observer, I believe that the only way to change things in the U.S.A. is for the “rule of law” middle class to take the streets of Washington in a peacefull manner. And once this administration is out, corporate law has to be rewritten as a whole. Then the media has to be reigned in. It’s your money theyre using against you…
oddmommy @ 241
Well hmmm. I’ve always been a Big Fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
RBG @ 243
I’ve got a terrible youtube addiction. I need help for that.
RBG @ 235
I have and will. I endlessly reflect do you?. And while I consider what you have said maybe you should consider what I have said. That people go OFF TOPIC all of the time and that the “only” let me repeat the “only” time “some” people go ballistic is when the I/P issue comes up, even when it is completely appropriate. Many of those same people rip the Bush administration, congress and many other issues to shreds. Criticizing US policies and our Congress’s seeming inability to stand up to some of these unfair and criminal policies. Maybe you should consider that this knee jerk responses to criticism of the unbridled support that the majority of congress gives to Israel no matter what they do (even if it ultimately hurts Israel and US) should be discussed (especially during a hearing)
Maybe you should consider that I may have a point about the middle east hearing today and that there was a reason for writing down what was being said at the hearing.
Maybe you should consider that during that hearing about the middle east not one question was asked about the ongoing expansion of illegal Israeli settlements. Maybe?
I will be linking some more info about the issue.
It would significantly lower the temperature and improve the discourse if commenters refrained from using the word “you.”
Kathleen @ 248
Many people here share the positions you present, and yet you frequently elicit negative responses while others don’t.
I wonder why that is?
Popcorn anyone?
oddmommy @ 239
I thank you for that Odd Mommy. And I will watch for “broad and sweeping” statements, even though many make “broad and sweeping” statements in reference to other issues.
I am truly sincere in my desire for peace for the Palestinian and Israeli people. But I also sincerely know that it will not happen until we all understand the issue to a greater depth.
Please no when I say I lobby I mean (James Woolsey, Ledeen, Christian fundamentalist, Cheney, Kristol) What would you consider the appropriate term for this group when they are pushing for legislation or policies which only include Israel’s perspective?
Pro-Palestine Pro Israel Pro Peace
Bustednuckles @ 251
Now it’s turnin into a love fest!
Quebecois @ 245
Hundreds of thousands of middle class Americans were out on the streets across the nation at the anti invasion marches in 2002 and early 2003. They continued to come out even after
the invasion by the millions (accumulatively). But guess what the MSM would show some footage
of a pot smoking goth ( don’t get me wrong I am not down on pot smokers or goth) over and over again on the evening news. They would not interview the teachers, the Vets, the soccer moms and grandparents at those marches.
raven @ 253
Hey it can be done.
Kathleen @ 252
Finding the right term has been a bit of a problem. Mearsheimer and Walt call exactly that group “The Israel Lobby” and go into a bit of detail about who and what what they mean — but like so many collective terms there seem to be boundary cases. Others use the term “right-wing zionists” or “likudniks”, etc.
Kathleen @ 255
More power to ya kiddo!
Kathleen at 254.
February 02, we had three weekends of demonstration against the announced Irak debacle. On the last of these walks, on a bitterly humid and cold day, 250,000 Montrealers showed up. The Montreal Media was reporting this quite favorably. Two countries, two visions.
I still maintain that the only action that could change your situation goes through the peaceful marches. The media talking heads will not report, or report it as if all these protesters are unamerican… There are still seven out of ten americans who want out of Irak. Get these folks involved, march, do something else than phone calls to most Senators, they don’t care about middle class America.
I should go back to lurking now, who the bleep am I to tell you folks what you should be doing??? Because the conservatives in this country are doing the same thing , politicize everything… Lurking and marching…
If you have not seen this conference on the I/P issue at Cooper Union. Did not get any mainstream media coverage.
Really Worth it
http://www.scribemedia.org/200…..ael-lobby/
Here is the press conference about the conference
http://www.scribemedia.org/200…..onference/
Quebecois @ 258
Another march coming up
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/
Protest against the march
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P…..e_Iraq_War
We create the dangerous world we live in and then decry it. We spread weapons around the world to keep our defense industry happy. We sell our most advanced jets and so forth. Pure insanity.
We also make threats of pre emption and so any country which feels they are in our sights is going to prepare to defend themselves. It’s madness, but paranoia will make people act quite irrationally.
The way to stop nuke proliferation is for USA to set and example and begin disarming. Absent that, there is absolutely no reason for any other nation not to have nukes. I hate them by it’s not our world to make the rules.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
RBG because it is generally only OK and I who bring this issue up.
Just because RBG is the site manager at FDL does not mean he is flawless or omnipotent.
Kathleen @ 261
hey! i do too.
selise @ 264
Yes you started to.
This is a great debate
http://democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml
Another great debate
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..hread&
tid=25
Kathleen @ 264
yeah, like years ago.
SanderO @ 261
Agreed.
More on non-proliferation
http://carnegieendowment.org/n…..;proj=znpp
http://www.iht.com/articles/20…..dpfaff.php
Joseph Cirincione on Non-proliferation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9_5BgpviP8
selise @ 267
And you do it very well.
Joseph Cirincione “there are about 26,ooo nuclear weapons in the world”
US has 10,ooo
Russia has 15,ooo
96% of nuclear weapons in the world.
Kathleen @ 269
Carnegie Endowment for Peace. this website on non proliferation is one of the best also at the International Atomic Energy Agency website
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/npp/
Statement on Iran
http://www.carnegieendowment.o…..;proj=znpp
this is one of the best schoolhouse rock videos..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQBWGo7pef8
watch it until the end!
Kathleen @ 248
I walked away from this comment for a while, hoping I could ignore the inference that somehow it was my fault that many people, including those who actually share your views, have a negative response to so many of your comments.
Please know, I have already spent far too much time searching for answers.
Being passionate about an issue is commendable. Repeatedly beating people over the head with your point of view is counterproductive.
If you cannot see the difference, then do not blame others for their reaction to your comments — because that is how they are perceived by far more than myself, whether you intend them to be or not.
And FWIW, “Billy did it too” never carried much weight when I tried it many years ago.
Kathleen @ 38
RBG I was listening to the hearing and relaying what was being said and yes made some comments about the I-lobby hat Odd Mommy objected to. At that point the comments began to spiral out of control and your snide comments to me added to that spiral. So please take responsibility for your part if you are able but you are obviously not.
I said that I have reflected and will reflect upon what you had to say. I asked you to do the same but you are obviously unable. Yes most of the time the same people object to when the I/P conflict is brought up. Yes I know my stance annoys some, but lets be clear I have been contacted by quite a few people off line from FDL about my stance. There are also plenty of people who have come right out and agreed directly on the blog.
You might just open up a little to the suggestion that you jumped on the Odd mommy comment.(but I say again you are clearly unable to do so) Up to that point there was no spiral.
The hearing on the middle east is posted at C-Span. Folks listen for yourself. One of the most critical issues in the Israeli Palestinian conflict was never brought up at all. The continued expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the confiscation of Palestinian lands via the building of the wall.
http://www.c-span.org/
RECENT PROGRAMS >>
Sec. Rice Testifies before the House Foreign Affairs Committee Hearing on the Mideast (10/24/2007)
Biodun @ 106
Sander O pointed out that Valerie Plame/Wilson said on Olberman last night when asked about Iran Valerie said “no doubt that there is malevolent intent on behalf of Iran, that they are seeking nuclear weapons there is no question about that”
Now Olbermann did not ask where is the “hard” or “verifiable evidence”? This comment by Plame/Wilson is a direct contradiction to what Iaea’s El Baradei has said about Iran.
Who do folks believe? Where is the evidence to back up what Valerie Plame Wilson claimed on Countdown about Iran?
kathleen @ 275
Let’s just say I speak for the entire backstage crew when I say I jumped on nothing. This thread was already headed downhill when I stepped in.
This is not the first time this concern has been raised with you. We have been exceedingly patient, and have spent a great deal of time trying to find a way to help you understand the effect many of your comments have on the threads.
When you choose to participate in the conversation, your comments have value. While we all go off topic at times, repeatedly trying to divert the conversation to whatever you would rather talk about becomes tiresome and rude.
It’s not about the politics. It’s not the issues that you raise that are the problem, It is the manner in which you present them.
Sadly, it seems you are unable to understand that simple fact.
RBG @ 278
You continue to contradict yourself, you said not to use Billy did it yet continue to use others “backstage” to pile on. If you read the thread you will read that I was relaying what was being said at the hearing. You jumped onto a comment that Odd Mommy made. Go back and read it.
I was not trying to switch the blog or comments just relaying what was being said at a very important hearing. Christy had mentioned the other day that the bloggers are and were unable to cover all of the hearings when I became frustrated that FDL did not find it important enough to blog about the Jena 6 hearing. She mentioned that it was fine to relay what was being said at a hearing. The middle east hearing is critical (whether you find it so or not).
Why is it that folks can criticize so many issues here at FDL the Bush administration, Fisa, Congress, etc etc and do it at times in very angry and brutal statements, and then I refer to the I-lobby having influence and Odd Mommy or you go ballistic? Come on if you are unable to look at this that is clearly your problem.
RBG clearly you and I are not going to agree on this. I hesitated to bring up that I have been contacted by people from this site off the blog about this issue but when you continue to pile on about “your backstage friends” it gets ridiculous. Speak for yourself and be willing to look at your comments that escalated this .. or not.
wigwam @ 256
I would still like to know what term that one can use to refer to the collusion of individuals who lobby for Israel over the welfare of the US and in many ways lobby against lasting peace in the middle east.
kathleen @ 280
As the Site Administrator for FDL, please understand that I speak for each and everyone of the moderators who spend countless hours helping the threads be such a great place to exchange ideas and build a progressive community.
I purposelessly stepped in late in this thread so we could have this conversation without derailing the other threads. I have not “escalated” anything. I have chosen to address concerns that were raised by other commenters and have been raised before.
Learn from what I have said or not. It’s your decision.
Well RBB you are clearly unable to read back through this blog and see that you did indeed escalate the spiral. If you are unable to truly reflect that is the problem of you and your “backstage crew”.
Again I will tell you that FDL folks have contacted me off line and shared that they feel that Firedoglake is often not able to deal with this issue as honestly as they try to deal with other issues. (though I do believe they try at times)
People have also shared that they are intimidated to speak their minds due to the responses to this issue.
The point that I have heard from folks off the blog is that the bloggers here can rip on oh so many topics but that the I/p issue is the “sacred cow” here and at many other so called “progressive blogs”. Now whether you or your “backstage crew” want to admit this that is your problem.
RBG you have not opened up one second to the possibility that you may have something to look at here. Go back and read the blog…or not. Back to the issues
kathleen @ 283
I have invested far too much time trying to address a situation that I did not create. Apparently it has been to no avail.
Perhaps there are other site that are better suited for your participation. On behalf of all the moderators at FDL, I certainly hope so.
RBG That was so out of line it is hard to believe
I suggest that you go back and read the blog and find that you did inflame the issue. There have been many comments that were of an affirmative nature and some that were not to comments about the hearing. And then you jumped in at 182 and 228 and started personally attacking,,,way out of line and incredibly inappropriate.
What a power move RBG I will be sure to share that with many and on national radio shows too
kathleen @ 286
It is time for me to move on to other matters and time for you to find another blog that will welcome your participation.
Kathleen @ 7
Idiot. Doesn’t he know we “support” Israel, but we don’t owe ANY allegiance to it. We are their ally. Maybe he doesn’t know the difference between ‘allied’ and ‘allegiance’.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 71
I’ve argued for taking the House ’cause it’s cheaper. But, in this instance you might be absolutely right. I mean, how hard could it be to find a great Blue Dem in California who has all the experience and personal qualities to get elected?
These are great for sending to congress.
http://backbonecampaign.org/page.cfm?id=67
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I just wrote to one of my senators regarding the FISA bill:
Dear Senator Findspine,
Please do.
Sincerely,
bob
long beach, ca
HI macbob. Welcome!
That’s very nice of you, newtonusr. Been lurking since fdl’s infancy but thought I’d finally throw in. I like to think my comment at Findspine’s site had something to do with its doors slamming shut. “We can’t hear you…Lalalalalalala…;-)