Alright!!!!

Oh yeah the race is on

Yeah…Hillary….

Yes, who…..? It’s such a mytsery. I mean, it would be different if there were a high-profile front-runner in public life for decades who was avoiding taking a stand on this….but who?

Hilliary is mia…….
she must like this spying/ wiretapping thing

I will keep holding my party’s feet to the fire.

Dodd stood first, (and we know FDL’s Jane Hamsher put her own two cents in with Dodd)

*Snagglepuss voice*

a mystery evennn…

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

Any more from Hillary yet? Or does she just want to use the powers Boosh has accumulated?

On Npr Michelle Norris just reported that Hillary is out in front of Obama 30 points. Michelle Norris asks Why? Why?

Can Somebody tell me what the difference is between “retroactive immunity” and a Constitutionally prohibited ex post facto law? I’ve been confused about this for a long time and though that surely somebody would mention it somewhere along the line.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 10

Any more from Hillary yet? Or does she just want to use the powers Boosh has accumulated?

Figure out how to triangulate this and you will know where Hillary will be.

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

He’s not voting on it. I’m sure he’s against it.

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

kathleen @ 11

On Npr Michelle Norris just reported that Hillary is out in front of Obama 30 points. Michelle Norris asks Why? Why?

That is BS…all the polls have Edwards leading.

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

I’ve asked the same thing. He’s been very quiet lately. I wonder why. He was my first choice before, but i’m back on the fence now.

Where is Gravel on this?
I have not heard from that corner?
*snerk*
/snark

Now we have to challenge some big names to withdraw their nominations of Hillary for her failure to stand up for the nation’s right to privacy. Now make her squirm.

But apparently at some point soon she will read the bill…then maybe do a little studying…then check to see if this limits the powers that she might want to have…see how the donations are flowing in from the telcos…stick a finger in the air…and see if she can wait til it blows over.

You know, show leadership and stuff.

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No – I don’t.

raven @ 15

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No, because he can help chide Hillary. It’s not hard at all for him to support the position of Dodd. It would show some leadership.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 17

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

I’ve asked the same thing. He’s been very quiet lately. I wonder why. He was my first choice before, but i’m back on the fence now.

I’m with you. Dodd’s looking better and better.

In the meantime, saying an extra prayer for Elizabeth Edwards today, and hoping that her health is not the reason for the sudden silence…

-S

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 22

raven @ 15

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No, because he can help chide Hillary. It’s not hard at all for him to support the position of Dodd. It would show some leadership.

OK, but since he doesn’t have to vote or actually do anything it wouldn’t be leadership in my pea-brained opinion.

It sounds like Tweety was just smelling that Aqua Velva again.

Whatever happened to that cute Peter Daou, the blogger who went to work for Hillary? Can’t he explain to her that this is important to American constitutional founding principles and the blogosphere?

Or don’t they let him sit at the big boy table?

It don’t come very easy….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3AycS7OS1w

Woohoo! Obey is not going to report out a single dime for Shrub’s supplemental appropriation for Iraq…!

raven @ 24

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 22

No, because he can help chide Hillary. It’s not hard at all for him to support the position of Dodd. It would show some leadership.

OK, but since he doesn’t have to vote or actually do anything it wouldn’t be leadership in my pea-brained opinion.

Yes, I know. The thing is, its giving him more chances to show how he’s different from Hillary. Make a strong statement. It’s a no lose on his part.

Once again HRC shows her true colors. Next year I’m afraid our choices will be Rebuplican or Rebuplican-lite.

This is very discouraging.

wigwam @ 19

Now we have to challenge some big names to withdraw their nominations of Hillary for her failure to stand up for the nation’s right to privacy. Now make her squirm.

Kind of a problem when her big names want the bill…

Wow. Biden was denied access to military base in his own state…(Hardball)

Agreed that Edwards should weigh in; a clear statement on amnesty is important.

Hillary presidency would be better than Shrub (I’m no Nader on that score, but I can’t say I am excited about it). It was Clinton at the wheel when the wheels truly started spinning off the bus. Bill’s popularity translated into squat for the party and liberal values more broadly. I suspect we’d have more of the same with Hillary.

I really fail to understand why the Dem Congress isn’t making absolute hay out of the fact that Bush is seeking to get amnesty for wrongdoing that he won’t admit to and won’t allow telcos to testify about. Making effing hay.

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

LS @ 32

Wow. Biden was denied access to military base in his own state…(Hardball)

Dover AFB is where the bodies come in.

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

Some said no, not without a warrant.

I’m almost feeling sorry for HRC. This person was once my great hope.

dakine01 @ 35

LS @ 32

Wow. Biden was denied access to military base in his own state…(Hardball)

Dover AFB is where the bodies come in.

I got it a little wrong based on what Tweety reported. I read Biden’s transcript at Huff, and he said he was allowed on the base, but not to the mortuary or to be with family members when the flag-draped coffins returned…something like that.

Good on Bill Richardson.

Somewhat off-thread, but Ms. Valerie Plame will be speaking on the Vanderbilt University campus at 7 PM on Wednesday, November 28. And for a satirical take on the flag lapel business, and Hillary Clinton’s response in particular, have a look at a Nashville Scene column.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I’m almost feeling sorry for HRC. This person was once my great hope.

Don’t get soft on me!

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THEY REPRESENT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

The telcos already have the good faith defense available to them. Greenwald has written extensively about this…saying that the courts have already said they should have known it was illegal.

Regardless, the point is, that they absolutely SHOULD be asking for warrants. They have a positive duty under the law and contracts with their customers to ask for warrants before giving up private individual info.

Telcos wouldn’t need to take FBI to court, it would be the other way around.

…and holding telcos responsible is the only way we are going to be able to hold BushCo accountable. You don’t really see much in the way of info coming in response to Congressional subpoenas do you?

LS @ 36

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

Some said no, not without a warrant.

all options regarding telecom officials are on the table.

Kevin @ 34. Little things like the 4th amendment and warrants.

As for your scenario, if that was what happened then it should be made public. Personally I don’t buy that there was a national security reason for the spying. I’m thinking it was purely political dirty tricks. These Bush/Cheney creeps are the Nixon youth all grown up.

Enough of this secrecy by OUR government. As we lose more and more of our right to privacy.

Hillary. You have lost sight of your base. And for that, I am saddened. Nothing like an FDR Demo scorned.

raven @ 40

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I’m almost feeling sorry for HRC. This person was once my great hope.

Don’t get soft on me!

Won’t happen. ;0)

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

But if the the telecoms are granted amnesty, a future Democratic Justice department will have nothing to hold over them to pry out the illegal actions of the BushCheneyAbu Justice department. If they are granted immunity for their crimes, they’ve no incentive to flip on those who made them break the law.

jim o’connor @ 43

Kevin @ 34. Little things like the 4th amendment and warrants.

As for your scenario, if that was what happened then it should be made public. Personally I don’t buy that there was a national security reason for the spying. I’m thinking it was purely political dirty tricks. These Bush/Cheney creeps are the Nixon youth all grown up.

Enough of this secrecy by OUR government. As we lose more and more of our right to privacy.

Yes, and it happened 6 months prior to 9/11…when the Admin. was planning to attack Iraq, and put AQ on the back burner (if you believe the official story).

Oklahoma kiddo @ 45

raven @ 40

Don’t get soft on me!

Won’t happen. ;0)

so why is she out in front by 30 points according to NPR?

raven @ 40

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I’m almost feeling sorry for HRC. This person was once my great hope.

Don’t get soft on me!

Very sad how it’s gone
In spite of everything once hopeful I too
Now think that this individual
Cannot possibly satisfy the progressive wing
Ever

For example there seems to be a cynical
Overestimation of trying to get ‘off the hook’
Saying things like
The president convinced me with his WMD
Estimations so we gave him authority
Really! we were all saying this is ludicrous.

kathleen @ 48

Oklahoma kiddo @ 45

Won’t happen. ;0)

so why is she out in front by 30 points according to NPR?

He was responding to my plea not to go soft. Geeze.

AlabamaYankee @ 12

Can Somebody tell me what the difference is between “retroactive immunity” and a Constitutionally prohibited ex post facto law? I’ve been confused about this for a long time and though that surely somebody would mention it somewhere along the line.

An ex post facto law makes something illegal that was legal when it was done. This may be a mirror image (making something that was illegal legal), but it’s not the same thing.

Ex post facto laws are unconstitutional because they provide the state with the power to simply declare something someone has already done illegal and punish said person for what was, when committed, not a crime.

There are three categories of ex post facto laws: those “which punish[ ] as a crime an act previously committed, which was innocent when done; which make[ ] more burdensome the punishment for a crime, after its commission; or which deprive[ ] one charged with crime of any defense available according to law at the time when the act was committed.”

kathleen @ 48

Oklahoma kiddo @ 45

Won’t happen. ;0)

so why is she out in front by 30 points according to NPR?

I am pondering that.

LS @ 36

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

Some said no, not without a warrant.

It’s the little warrant thingy. All they needed was a warrant. Easier to get than a bottle of aspirin. No warrant = banana republic with Dick Cheney on the dollar bills.

kathleen @ 48

Oklahoma kiddo @ 45

Won’t happen. ;0)

so why is she out in front by 30 points according to NPR?

That is a national polling. In Iowa she is in a tie. Caucuses are not primaries.

You are! You missed his name for some reason……. but, Sen. Russ Feingold from Wisconsin “Is NOT Missing”…

jayt @ 21

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No – I don’t.

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

Bob @ 55

You are! You missed his name for some reason……. but, Sen. Russ Feingold from Wisconsin “Is NOT Missing”…

I think the reference was to “candidates”…:}

Colleen a daily lurker @ 54

kathleen @ 48

so why is she out in front by 30 points according to NPR?

That is a national polling. In Iowa she is in a tie. Caucuses are not primaries.

Tweety just said 31% in the National Polls.

1,636 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen CTuttle and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

“Woohoo. Obey is not gunna report out a single dime for Shrubs supplemental appropriation for Iraq…”

That’s what I’m talkin’ about!!! I been tellin’ you firepups for some time that Dave Obey is BAAAAD…now THAT’s leadership, usin’ the power you have to tell the profiteers and the con artists in BOTH parties ta “turn out the lights the party’s over!!”

Mrs. Clinton and Nancy One Note are ya listenin’ here…the train has left the station and yer not on it!! Obey has jest focused the debate and made the Democratic Party stand for sumpthin’ in spite of its leadership.

I wanna see Nancy One Note try and intimidate Dave Obey…I DON”T THINK SO!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION, OBEY’S DRAGGIN ‘EM INTA THE RING KICKIN’ AND SCREAMIN’!!

aye @ 56

jayt @ 21

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No – I don’t.

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

As a supporter and a contributor I have already e-mailed the campaign and asked that he make a statement. Hope he will.

aye @ 56

jayt @ 21

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No – I don’t.

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

I’ve gotten a couple of fundraising e-mails from Edwards (actually Joe Trippi) the last couple of days, but nothing hitting this issue – if he had, my liklihood of donating would have been higher. Take note if you’re reading, Joe.

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

We need to knock off Senator Clinton in the primaries. For example, Edwards is the projected winner in the Oklahoma Democratic primary. Even though HRC has raised more money here.

Ish @ 61

aye @ 56

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

I’ve gotten a couple of fundraising e-mails from Edwards (actually Joe Trippi) the last couple of days, but nothing hitting this issue – if he had, my liklihood of donating would have been higher. Take note if you’re reading, Joe.

Edwards’ timing always seems off and out of touch. He should be more of a team player and work with us on issues like this.

The sad thing is that I have the feeling he would agree with us on FISA, but he just isn’t paying attention. Which actually speaks volumes about his character and judgment.

abject funk @ 9

Where is Edwards on this? Where is the pressure on Edwards on this?

Last I looked Edwards is not in the Senate….

Actually, technically, it would be an ex post facto law. It just isn’t the kind that was envisioned.

There’s no way the telecoms’ lawyers would have allowed them to break the law without some kind of assurance that they were protected – there’s a piece of paper somewhere, bet on it, and Shrub and Darth don’t want it to show up in any courtroom. They were listening in on a lot of people, citizens – it’s that ’six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon’ bit: they were listening in on people connected to people they thought might be connected to terrorists.

solai- which district are you in? edit- who is your Rep?

Hi all.

Aravosis is now at war with Obama . . . Barak took on the wrong guy and made some really bad decisions.

Feeling great about Dodd today.

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

IANAL, but the Hatch Act only applies to feds. You would have to look into your state’s laws.

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

Doesn’t looseheadprop work in NY?

The outlook is that a match-up between Clinton and say for example Giuliani will be a nail biter. I don’t want to see that. I want Dodd, Edwards or Gore. Anyone of these three, it is felt, will assure a non-nail biter. And a solid Democratic victory.

aye @ 64

Ish @ 61

I’ve gotten a couple of fundraising e-mails from Edwards (actually Joe Trippi) the last couple of days, but nothing hitting this issue – if he had, my liklihood of donating would have been higher. Take note if you’re reading, Joe.

Edwards’ timing always seems off and out of touch. He should be more of a team player and work with us on issues like this.

The sad thing is that I have the feeling he would agree with us on FISA, but he just isn’t paying attention. Which actually speaks volumes about his character and judgment.

If he had one hair in his ass in the last election the dems would have won. He’s milquetoast.

Whenever Edwards makes a statement about a current issue that the Senate is considering, the chatterati — and some supporters of sitting Senators — say, “Well, that’s easy for Edwards to say, he gave up his Senate seat.” Any statement he made now on FISA telecom immunity or a filibuster would be greeted with the same chorus. He’s already made plain he plans to return America to constitutional principles when he’s elected.

I’m happy to continue to press sitting Senators to take a stand to join Chris Dodd’s hold and filibuster. Richardson’s statement is nice, but it’s sitting Senators who can really make this happen.

Sometimes I think it gets overlooked that Bush isn’t running for office. The GOP’s attacks on Hillary are provoking a circle-the-wagons response in Dems, just like the impeachment drive did for Bill. They want her because they think they can beat her.

Do you hear the Debatin’ Dems ganging up on any GOP candidate? They should pick the easiest to defeat (I think that’s Romney) and do the same, to elevate him in the polls.

Updated DFA poll….Hillary is not leading:

http://democracyforamerica.com/

aye @ 64

Ish @ 61

I’ve gotten a couple of fundraising e-mails from Edwards (actually Joe Trippi) the last couple of days, but nothing hitting this issue – if he had, my liklihood of donating would have been higher. Take note if you’re reading, Joe.

Edwards’ timing always seems off and out of touch. He should be more of a team player and work with us on issues like this.

The sad thing is that I have the feeling he would agree with us on FISA, but he just isn’t paying attention. Which actually speaks volumes about his character and judgment.

Yeah…right:

“Congress is considering new wiretapping laws that go well beyond the authority the president needs to keep our country safe by allowing wiretapping of Americans’ phone calls and emails without court supervision. Once again, George Bush is intimidating his critics with political threats.

“It’s time for Congress to show some backbone and stand up for the principles that have always made America strong. To defeat terrorism, we must preserve our moral authority to lead the world. If we are to succeed in spreading democracy abroad, we must defend the fundamental principles of democracy at home.”

It’s considered progressive to get your facts right before you start smearing folks.

Try it you’ll be a better person for it.

raven @ 72

aye @ 64

Edwards’ timing always seems off and out of touch. He should be more of a team player and work with us on issues like this.

The sad thing is that I have the feeling he would agree with us on FISA, but he just isn’t paying attention. Which actually speaks volumes about his character and judgment.

If he had one hair in his ass in the last election the dems would have won. He’s milquetoast.

Sorry “on his ass”.

Let’s start fresh. Let’s get rid of the GOP and the Clintons.

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

You might ask Christy or Marcy or Glenn directly, by email.

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

Solai,
There was a thread on this yesterday. Let me go find it for you

aye @ 56

jayt @ 21

Since he isn’t in office whatever he says is pretty meaningless, don’t you think?

No – I don’t.

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

Apparently the ‘leading’ Democratic contenders
believe that they have a ‘lock’ on their supporter’s affections and loyalty. This time, they may be definitely and defiantly surprised. Edwards has had my support. It is evident that this time people are watching how things develop and tolerating little in the way of excuse. A question to all. How many of you or those you may know have been queried in these ‘National polls’?

I know few who will vote for Clinton, happily or easily, and the unease is increasing rapidly.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 78

Let’s start fresh. Let’s get rid of the GOP and the Clintons.

Let’s!

RevDeb @ 68

Hi all.

Aravosis is now at war with Obama . . . Barak took on the wrong guy and made some really bad decisions.

Feeling great about Dodd today.

Aravosis is using the Obama ex-gay gospel show as a distraction from Bush’s staff commitment yesterday to veto ENDA in any form. He’d argued that Bush hadn’t definitely promised to veto ENDA and therefore the bill still meant something to gays and lesbians even tho transgenders were thrown from the bus.

A.Citizen @ 82

Oklahoma kiddo @ 78

Let’s start fresh. Let’s get rid of the GOP and the Clintons.

Let’s!

Let’s shall.

A.Citizen @ 82

Oklahoma kiddo @ 78

Let’s start fresh. Let’s get rid of the GOP and the Clintons.

Let’s!

I would vote for that reality.

LS @ 84

A.Citizen @ 82

Let’s!

Let’s shall.

Throw DiFi and a few others under that bus & I’m in.

TeddySanFran @ 73

Whenever Edwards makes a statement about a current issue that the Senate is considering, the chatterati — and some supporters of sitting Senators — say, “Well, that’s easy for Edwards to say, he gave up his Senate seat.” Any statement he made now on FISA telecom immunity or a filibuster would be greeted with the same chorus. He’s already made plain he plans to return America to constitutional principles when he’s elected.

I’m happy to continue to press sitting Senators to take a stand to join Chris Dodd’s hold and filibuster. Richardson’s statement is nice, but it’s sitting Senators who can really make this happen.

So the chatterati will complain. Big freaking deal. Edwards should still encourage his supporters to take action on FISA. His supporters will listen, and put pressure on their own representatives. Edwards can make a significant positive difference in the FISA debate.

If the reason Edwards isn’t acting is because he’s worried that the chatterati will criticize him, then he doesn’t deserve to be president.

I actually think the explanation is more mundane. Edwards isn’t focused on the FISA issue and he isn’t thinking creatively about how his supporters can make a difference on this issue, because he doesn’t see how it can help him.

It is short-sighted and deplorable that Edwards is thinking this way, but I don’t think it is necessarily out of fear of the chatterati, who will criticize him no matter what he does anyway.

solai @ 62

Sorry this is from Monday, not yesterday.

edit: Oops sorry. This is a thread about the topic itself, not the possible Hatch Act violation. However, it is an “issue” and not a specific partisan act so may be acceptable.

TeddySanFran @ 83

RevDeb @ 68

Hi all.

Aravosis is now at war with Obama . . . Barak took on the wrong guy and made some really bad decisions.

Feeling great about Dodd today.

Aravosis is using the Obama ex-gay gospel show as a distraction from Bush’s staff commitment yesterday to veto ENDA in any form. He’d argued that Bush hadn’t definitely promised to veto ENDA and therefore the bill still meant something to gays and lesbians even tho transgenders were thrown from the bus.

Teddy- not sure I get what you are saying- but is it that Av is using this as misdirection, in a way- a kinda CYA maneuver? Not doubting, just want make sure I understand what you are saying.

OT, but not really, since it’s all interrelated:

A TALE OF INTRIGUE AND POLITICAL INCEST IN THE HIGHEST ORDERS AND PLACES. Mooncat gives em hell.

Is that pronounced chatter-rot-eye
or chatter-rat-eye?

I don’t quite get the indignation at the companies involved. Sure they should be held accountable. But isn’t 99.9999% of one’s outrage more appropriately directed at the admin’n. Why isn’t anyone standing up and saying, “I urge my Democratic primary opponents, and every Senator, to stand up and state loudly and clearly — without any equivocation — that he or she will not ignore any longer the fact that the Bush administration in violating the law and spying on our own people.”

Edwards may very well know that the chatterati’s criticism of him will be used as a disctraction from the fight. Why do you think his supporters aren’t being reached by appeals from other organizations?

Sitting Senators are the target of this effort. Sitting Senators are the ones who can make a difference. Sitting Senators should be standing up with Chris Dodd.

David W. Bartoo @ 90

Is that pronounced chatter-rot-eye
or chatter-rat-eye?

rat

Help! I’m stuck in the moderator place.

nevah mind.

I’d rather hear how we’re going to dump Judas Jay Rockefeller than speculate about Edwards’ motives.

With holds on and filibusters promised, what more do we need? Pressure on Hillary? C’mon, she’ll put her finger in the wind and filibuster. Edwards isn’t going to impact her established practice of weaselling till the last minute.

Valley Girl @ 89

TeddySanFran @ 83

Aravosis is using the Obama ex-gay gospel show as a distraction from Bush’s staff commitment yesterday to veto ENDA in any form. He’d argued that Bush hadn’t definitely promised to veto ENDA and therefore the bill still meant something to gays and lesbians even tho transgenders were thrown from the bus.

Teddy- not sure I get what you are saying- but is it that Av is using this as misdirection, in a way- a kinda CYA maneuver? Not doubting, just want make sure I understand what you are saying.

I’m sure he’s sincere, but it’s also a convenient smokescreen. Much of his reasoning for throwing transgenders under the ENDA bus relied on his statement that Bush hadn’t promised a veto. Now that the veto’s on the table, there’s something new to get overwrought about at ABlog. This new ex-gay gospel scandal of Obama’s is an equally valid campaign, though.

He may have covered the veto news already; I don’t wander over to ABlog very often anymore.

David W. Bartoo @ 81

aye @ 56

Edwards could send a mass email to all his supporters and get them all to call their representives to protest telecom immunity.

Edwards can reach huge numbers of supporters with a single email.

It would make a huge difference on the FISA issue.

Why hasn’t Edwards done this?

Apparently the ‘leading’ Democratic contenders
believe that they have a ‘lock’ on their supporter’s affections and loyalty. This time, they may be definitely and defiantly surprised. Edwards has had my support. It is evident that this time people are watching how things develop and tolerating little in the way of excuse. A question to all. How many of you or those you may know have been queried in these ‘National polls’?

I know few who will vote for Clinton, happily or easily, and the unease is increasing rapidly.

I have been polled by phone and Hillay was on my top 2 list at all
Edwards and Dodd. I attend the caucuses in Iowa.

aye @ 87

TeddySanFran @ 73

Whenever Edwards makes a statement about a current issue that the Senate is considering, the chatterati — and some supporters of sitting Senators — say, “Well, that’s easy for Edwards to say, he gave up his Senate seat.” Any statement he made now on FISA telecom immunity or a filibuster would be greeted with the same chorus. He’s already made plain he plans to return America to constitutional principles when he’s elected.

I’m happy to continue to press sitting Senators to take a stand to join Chris Dodd’s hold and filibuster. Richardson’s statement is nice, but it’s sitting Senators who can really make this happen.

So the chatterati will complain. Big freaking deal. Edwards should still encourage his supporters to take action on FISA. His supporters will listen, and put pressure on their own representatives. Edwards can make a significant positive difference in the FISA debate.

If the reason Edwards isn’t acting is because he’s worried that the chatterati will criticize him, then he doesn’t deserve to be president.

I actually think the explanation is more mundane. Edwards isn’t focused on the FISA issue and he isn’t thinking creatively about how his supporters can make a difference on this issue, because he doesn’t see how it can help him.

It is short-sighted and deplorable that Edwards is thinking this way, but I don’t think it is necessarily out of fear of the chatterati, who will criticize him no matter what he does anyway.

Uh….This is what Edwards has said on this issue:

“Congress is considering new wiretapping laws that go well beyond the authority the president needs to keep our country safe by allowing wiretapping of Americans’ phone calls and emails without court supervision. Once again, George Bush is intimidating his critics with political threats.

“It’s time for Congress to show some backbone and stand up for the principles that have always made America strong. To defeat terrorism, we must preserve our moral authority to lead the world. If we are to succeed in spreading democracy abroad, we must defend the fundamental principles of democracy at home.”

I guess ’some say’ works for the ‘progressive’ folks here. No need really to check with what the Edwards campaign’s position nor what he has put on the record.

Nope, just make it up as you go along.

I hear Drudge needs ‘bloggers’ for his operation. You might consider filling out an app.

Lindy @ 95

Help! I’m stuck in the moderator place.

Hard refresh, Lindy. You are free.

Teddy- thanks for the further info. Helpful. (re: Av AmBlog)

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

Ball’s in the court. Maybe a time for a ‘County Workers for Humanity’ or some such to form and issue a statement supporting the driver’s license measure? Just don’t use county time and resources like the phantom leafleters appear to be doing.

Jane’s got Jay Rocky upstairs

TeddySanFran @ 92

Edwards may very well know that the chatterati’s criticism of him will be used as a disctraction from the fight. Why do you think his supporters aren’t being reached by appeals from other organizations?

Sitting Senators are the target of this effort. Sitting Senators are the ones who can make a difference. Sitting Senators should be standing up with Chris Dodd.

Edwards, a non-Senator, should send an email similar to the one sent by Richardson, also a non-Senator.

Seriously, it is total bullshit for anyone to argue that Edwards, as a citizen running for president, shouldn’t encourage his supporters to reach out to their own Senators to speak out on a cause that he believes in.

The chatterati might make this complaint, but such whining will only draw more attention to this important issue.

Honestly, I cannot countenance chatterati-based decision making in my candidates and I hope that isn’t what Edwards is doing. It would be foolish to lose one’s base supporters out of fear of the chatterati, which is exactly what is happening to Edwards if your hypothesis about his motivations is correct.

You know where Kucinich stands on this issue… you just never see it or read it anywhere. Why is every blog afraid to even mention his name? I thought only MSM pronounced who the leading candidates were?

Hmmm…?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 63

We need to knock off Senator Clinton in the primaries. For example, Edwards is the projected winner in the Oklahoma Democratic primary. Even though HRC has raised more money here.

I wouldn’t quite use that language but totally concur (and OK Kiddo, I’m surprised you ever considered HRC your great hope).

As a NY resident, I’m finding that suddenly Clinton is responding to my correspondence on this and other matters far more quickly than in the past, which means that her staff is cranking out form letters filled with infuriating, platitudinous dreck on an ever more timely basis.

The letter her staff sent me last week on Iran and the Lieberman-Kyl amendment was filled with out-and-out lies, half-truths, and decontextualized conjecture, to the point where, if I get some free time, I intend to annotate the atrocities and post.

For example, her letter referred to Ahmadinejad as “the leading spokesperson for Iran’s nuclear weapons program,” which is a baldfaced, inflammatory lie, unless denying the existence of something constitutes serving as a spokesperson for it. By that logic, Joe Wilson was a “spokesman” for Iraq’s yellowcake acquisition program.

“Congress is considering new wiretapping laws that go well beyond the authority the president needs to keep our country safe by allowing wiretapping of Americans’ phone calls and emails without court supervision. Once again, George Bush is intimidating his critics with political threats.

“It’s time for Congress to show some backbone and stand up for the principles that have always made America strong. To defeat terrorism, we must preserve our moral authority to lead the world. If we are to succeed in spreading democracy abroad, we must defend the fundamental principles of democracy at home.”

There isn’t anything in this statement about retroactive immunity for telecoms, which is the main issue on the table at this point.

And I’m not just asking Edwards to make a statement, I’m asking him to at least send an email getting his supporters involved in this cause. Same goes for the other candidates, but I’m singling out Edwards because I expect more of him on progressive issues.

“Woohoo! Obey is not going to report out a single dime for Shrub’s supplemental appropriation for Iraq…!”

-Big Whoop!
He’ll talk tough…then cave.
Pelosi has a cesure motion waiting for him.

“ahem”
“censure motion”

solai @ 62
,i>

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

Hi. I am a lawyer – but there doesn’t come around here, very often – issues regarding FISA, renditions, Jose Padilla, extra-judicial wiretaps, NSA letters – and so on. I work in Central Indiana.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I don’t know any more about this than you do – but for what it’s worth – I’d be forwarding this to the State’s Attorney General – ASAP.

TeddySanFran @ 98

Valley Girl @ 89

Teddy- not sure I get what you are saying- but is it that Av is using this as misdirection, in a way- a kinda CYA maneuver? Not doubting, just want make sure I understand what you are saying.

I’m sure he’s sincere, but it’s also a convenient smokescreen. Much of his reasoning for throwing transgenders under the ENDA bus relied on his statement that Bush hadn’t promised a veto. Now that the veto’s on the table, there’s something new to get overwrought about at ABlog. This new ex-gay gospel scandal of Obama’s is an equally valid campaign, though.

He may have covered the veto news already; I don’t wander over to ABlog very often anymore.

He covered it and ate crow.

This seems more like a JA crusade of yore. And Obama has played right into it by trying to dust himself off and move on. JA is like a leach when it comes to this kind of thing. Stoopid Obama.

jc inOR @ 103

solai @ 62

This is OT but I can’t wait any longer. Some background: I work for county govt. in NYS. The county is overwhelmingly repub. All elected officials are repub (sheriff, co.clerk etc) most of the legislature is repub and all the appointed officials are repub.
Anyway, today what appears on my desk is a petition to stop Governor Spitzer from allowing undocumented workers from getting a drivers license. NEVER before (and I’ve worked there forever) has there been such political action taken at work. The petition said to return it to the County Clerk’s office (DMV). I was stunned. Is this legal? I looked up the Hatch Act but couldn’t see where this was a violation. Any lawyers out there know?

Ball’s in the court. Maybe a time for a ‘County Workers for Humanity’ or some such to form and issue a statement supporting the driver’s license measure? Just don’t use county time and resources like the phantom leafleters appear to be doing.

They weren’t phantom. Came straight from the county clerk’s office. And it was a petition.

hedge @ 92

I don’t quite get the indignation at the companies involved. Sure they should be held accountable. But isn’t 99.9999% of one’s outrage more appropriately directed at the admin’n. Why isn’t anyone standing up and saying, “I urge my Democratic primary opponents, and every Senator, to stand up and state loudly and clearly — without any equivocation — that he or she will not ignore any longer the fact that the Bush administration in violating the law and spying on our own people.”

hedge,

The problem with the Verizon and ATT begging for retroactive immunity is two or three fold.

A) Qwest received the same requests (as did some of the smaller TelCos) and refused to comply because the lawyers could tell it was breaking the law. Sounds simple doesn’t it?

B) IIRC, at least one judge in civil cases on this has called BS on both ATT and the Gov’t lawyers backing them that they can’t play that game.

C) The initial requests for this info went out six months prior to 9/11 so all the NatSec arguments are bogus on the face of it.

Edwards was out in front of this when the current FISA bill was ramrodded through Congress. He asked for those in Congress to stand up to Bush and show some backbone. Seems to me they are taking his advice and Edwards is the one who was displaying early leadership on the FISA legislation.

Without wishing DiFi any ill – if she died, Ghu forbid, between now and the end of her term, I think I’d send a bouquet with a ribbon saying ‘Bon Voyage’.

IrishJim @ 115

Edwards was out in front of this when the current FISA bill was ramrodded through Congress. He asked for those in Congress to stand up to Bush and show some backbone. Seems to me they are taking his advice and Edwards is the one who was displaying early leadership on the FISA legislation.

Where is he now? What good is early leadership if there is no follow through?

Comments:
Chatter-rat-EE

Forward the petition to SPITZER, if you want action.

The outlook is that a match-up between Clinton and say for example Giuliani will be a nail biter.

That would be a yawn instead. A MussoliniGiuliani candidacy would spark a third-party revolt that would roll out a red carpet from the Dem candidate to the White House.

Admiral Komack @ 109

“Woohoo! Obey is not going to report out a single dime for Shrub’s supplemental appropriation for Iraq…!”

-Big Whoop!
He’ll talk tough…then cave.
Pelosi has a cesure motion waiting for him.

David Obey is on the table-

solai @ 113

jc inOR @ 103

Ball’s in the court. Maybe a time for a ‘County Workers for Humanity’ or some such to form and issue a statement supporting the driver’s license measure? Just don’t use county time and resources like the phantom leafleters appear to be doing.

They weren’t phantom. Came straight from the county clerk’s office. And it was a petition.

Send it to Andy Cuomo’s office. See what he thinks about it.

dakine01 @ 114

hedge @ 92

I don’t quite get the indignation at the companies involved. Sure they should be held accountable. But isn’t 99.9999% of one’s outrage more appropriately directed at the admin’n. Why isn’t anyone standing up and saying, “I urge my Democratic primary opponents, and every Senator, to stand up and state loudly and clearly — without any equivocation — that he or she will not ignore any longer the fact that the Bush administration in violating the law and spying on our own people.”

hedge,

The problem with the Verizon and ATT begging for retroactive immunity is two or three fold.

A) Qwest received the same requests (as did some of the smaller TelCos) and refused to comply because the lawyers could tell it was breaking the law. Sounds simple doesn’t it?

B) IIRC, at least one judge in civil cases on this has called BS on both ATT and the Gov’t lawyers backing them that they can’t play that game.

C) The initial requests for this info went out six months prior to 9/11 so all the NatSec arguments are bogus on the face of it.

I agree with you completely that they ought to be subject to the laws as they were. However, everyone is now focussed on the Telecoms. Hey, look over there, it’s the evil telecoms. Don’t let them get away!! I just think they are the accomplice after the fact, not the guy holding the smoking gun. Anyone doing anything about that guy?

Sorry, this solai @ 113

jc inOR @ 103

Ball’s in the court. Maybe a time for a ‘County Workers for Humanity’ or some such to form and issue a statement supporting the driver’s license measure? Just don’t use county time and resources like the phantom leafleters appear to be doing.

They weren’t phantom. Came straight from the county clerk’s office. And it was a petition.

Cheehhh, Solai. I wonder if the Clerk was authorized by the commissioners to do this. I guess they could take such a position, but would have to do so publicly. If an individual or private group is lobbying under the color of authority, I think that is grounds for sanctions. Either way, a statement by a few county workers, and preferably by one or more of their unions or committees thereof, should help draw the lines on this. Best of wishes, and I’ll be sure to follow this. Has it made the press? Once you get some more facts, maybe is should, along with some saner voices speaking to support the law enforcement people such as Spitzer favoring this. Stuff happening on this in Oregon, though I’ve got homework on this to do, too.

aye @ 87

TeddySanFran @ 73

Whenever Edwards makes a statement about a current issue that the Senate is considering, the chatterati — and some supporters of sitting Senators — say, “Well, that’s easy for Edwards to say, he gave up his Senate seat.” Any statement he made now on FISA telecom immunity or a filibuster would be greeted with the same chorus. He’s already made plain he plans to return America to constitutional principles when he’s elected.

I’m happy to continue to press sitting Senators to take a stand to join Chris Dodd’s hold and filibuster. Richardson’s statement is nice, but it’s sitting Senators who can really make this happen.

So the chatterati will complain. Big freaking deal. Edwards should still encourage his supporters to take action on FISA. His supporters will listen, and put pressure on their own representatives. Edwards can make a significant positive difference in the FISA debate.

If the reason Edwards isn’t acting is because he’s worried that the chatterati will criticize him, then he doesn’t deserve to be president.

I actually think the explanation is more mundane. Edwards isn’t focused on the FISA issue and he isn’t thinking creatively about how his supporters can make a difference on this issue, because he doesn’t see how it can help him.

It is short-sighted and deplorable that Edwards is thinking this way, but I don’t think it is necessarily out of fear of the chatterati, who will criticize him no matter what he does anyway.

Why don’t we wait and find out the real reason before skewering the man on what we or someone else THINKS might be the reason.

none of this will matter a year from now.

H. Clinton could nominate Joe Lieberman, as VP, or even Darth Cheney itself, and the Axiom of Automatic Support for the Least Worst demands that ‘progressives’ must go to the polls and pull the lever for the anointed (D) ticket.

(D) captured netroots will be in full sheepdog mode, trying to nip the flock back into the corral. Late October 2008 will be full of the frightened shrieks of the (D) party leadership, in a close race, cajoling the betrayed Left wing to just trust them, one more time.

firedogpups please check out this diary which does a great job attacking another case of a Democrat adopting right wing talking points that Jane has correctly condemned.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/24/151427/58
here is the web site address

Kevin c. @ 34

I hate to buck the crowd here, but why exactly are we so gung-ho to hold the telecoms responsible for the illegal behavior of the Bush administration? If the freaking FBI comes in and says “we need this information by Tuesday and it’s a matter of national security” can you really blame the telecoms for not trying to take them to court? For crying out loud, THE FBI WORKS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, how far do you think you’d get?

If this was illegal, and it certainly was, then we need to impeach Bush and Cheney and put Gonzo behind bars, not punish Verizon. This is scapegoating.

IMHO.

i’m with you kevin. i still say they may not have the votes to impeach now, but they CAN start hearings. and those hearings will be an almost inadvertent heads up for the nation. During the clinton impeach fiasco people were riveted to the tube and learned something about the constitution, even though the context was totally missing. Imagine what could be done with this context! Now just when so many follks are starting to get it. I keep saying to everyone i know: i’m not voting for anyone who doesn’t support impeachment now, and i keep hearing from my dem reps lame excuses why they’re lame. When they break the law, a refresher course is needed for the nation that let them get away with it. No more dippy dems. At least i won’t feel like a cheap date again when the election’s over.

I like Richardson. He stands on principals and has nice hair too. He should be President.

wigwam @ 19

Now we have to challenge some big names to withdraw their nominations of Hillary for her failure to stand up for the nation’s right to privacy. Now make her squirm.

Good idea. How would “we” go about doing that? Is it up to a candidate (or candidateS) to call for it?

LS @ 75

Updated DFA poll….Hillary is not leading:

http://democracyforamerica.com/

Internet poll of DFA members???? C’mon. Let’s be realistic! I think there is a lot of self-deception going on here about Hillary’s support. If you are going to change the polls down the round itb requires defeating her in the primaries in the early states and altering that momentum. Once she starts winning primaries she will be even harder to stop.

To defeat her may mean sacrificing one or more progressive candidates and consolidating quite early around one…and then convincing those “progressive” candiadtes that they need to withdraw BEFORE the primaries. That way progressives wouldn’t be sub-dividing their votes and efforts.

So here’s the tough question. Who do you tell to drop out before Iowa and New Hampshire? Dodd? Edwards? Feingold? Richardson?

And what if one of those candidates would run better against Hillary and Obama in a LATER primary?

After reading all the comments here about Hillary, Hillary, Hillary I wonder if anybody read the post. I realise Janes’ snarky comment about who’s missing was about the junior senator from New York, but the point of the news article was Governor Richardson’s unequivocal support for no retro-active immunity.
The news article is about someone running for President who is not obsequious to the corporate high-dollar early donors.

Kudos to Governor Richardson for speaking out for the Constitution.

pinkofreeptard @ 127

I like Richardson. He stands on principals and has nice hair too. He should be President.

I don’t know about his hair being nice, but he’s not encumbered by all the Senatorial politics that envelope the front-runners.

He’s good. He’s not a Senator. He should be President.