Introductory clip of Extraordinary Rendition, to be broadcast on PBS Frontline on November 6 at 9 pm ET.
On November 6th, Frontline will air a chilling documentary on the CIA practice of extraordinary rendition. One of the men behind the film — journalist Stephen Grey — will be here at FDL for a special Film Salon on Thursday, October 25th, at 11:00 am ET/8:00 am PT. Stephen is the author of Ghost Plane, and has concentrated his most recent investigative work on security issues and Iraq for publications like Atlantic Monthly and the Guardian, among many other projects. From the Frontline press release:
“They pushed me down onto the floor of the van. There was blood everywhere, on my hands, my knees,” Egyptian cleric Abu Omar tells FRONTLINE/World reporter Stephen Grey about being snatched off the street by the CIA.
“As we drove along, I started to choke.… It felt like I was dying. Then I disappeared from history.”
“Somebody came, removed the hood, removed the cuffs and left me in the shackles,” Bisher al-Rawi, a longtime British resident, says of his arrival at an infamous secret CIA “black site” in Afghanistan.
“And that was the ‘Dark Prison.’… It was a very, very cold place. … You had some sort of odd voices, not music, playing on speakers. … You had people coming to check you were alive—not OK, but alive. … [For] the duration of the dark prison I had shackles on. I just took it as it came.”
I hope that everyone will be able to join us for what promises to be a harrowing and extraordinary discussion on a subject that desperately needs much more sunlight.
As you will see from the video, there are a lot of questions that need answers. Including whether this conduct done in the name of the United States under such a sanitized term as “extraordinary rendition” makes us more safe…or much less safe over the long run. This is a subject about which there has been a substantial amount of concern, and while it is a very difficult one in terms of discussion and anger, I think it will be incredibly beneficial to delve into this topic and hopefully to stimulate more discussion in the public sphere.
And while I’m at it, I’d still like to hear some answers to Marty’s questions…because what I’ve heard thus far from both the Bush Administration and Judge Mukasey, the current AG nominee, has been less than satisfactory.



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ZED!
Stop Renditions NOW!
dang, read it first (applauds Christy)
What a pleasant surprise in the evening!
Hello Christy!
Hi, Christy!
Sometimes a zed is inappropriate.
Evening everyone. Thought this would be of interest to a number of readers here.
Bush personally ordered the torture:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._1022.html
EPU’d…they are referring to the firestorm as “Super Katrina”…
They are beginning to believe Global Warming.
Gore’s time is now.
Wow!
great get Christy!
Christy – and how is the Peanut doing? Tummy better?
This is the CIA… and why we need to pull the plug on THIS CIA and start from scratch.
Everyone turns in their resignation and a new charter and new hires.
We can’t have people doing these things in OUR name.
How do people inside the CIA work for an organization doing these things and not quit in protest?
I don’t get that? These renditions were not so secret. Many of us outside knew about them.
There’s some explaining to do and we need some accountability moments.
Michael Sheuer… Please take the stand…
LS @ 9
Katina-1200 dead, 80,000 homes destroyed
Thousands of square miles destroyed
California to date-2 dead, 1500 homes destroyed.
Hundreds of sqaure miles destroyed.
Super Katrina-Not yet.
Toby at 11 — She’s feeling much, much better, thanks. It was a 24-hour bug, it seems. With some sleep and much time on momma’s lap watching cartoons, she’s feeling a whole lot better.
LS @ 9
Oh LS – it pains me to admit I’m losing all hope the Honorable Al Gore will honor us with a ReElection opportunity after all. What say you?
“Then I disappeared from history”
bone chilling that Americans are disappearing people.
Elliott @ 16
I am surprised they are letting people go at all.
Elliott at 10 — Yes, it is. This documentary has been a while in the making, and the interviews in it are truly harrowing to watch, as will the discussion of how these techniques are not exactly universally applauded for success at gaining any truly useful information. So in all likelihood, this is being done for little to no useful information…and it is being done in all our names. Definitely needs more discussion, don’t you think?
I would like to know why the people in the CIA like Larry Johnson and Valerie Plame, for example, who are ethical people said nothing about these renditions?
Why is that?
it is common knowledge that the CIA has black ops, assassinations and so forth. This is not information gathering either. And the renditions were for torture and intimidation.
Frankly I am tired of not hearing about their great successes because they must be secret.
There is something terrible wrong with both the CIA and the FBI… not all of the people there, but too many of them.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 14
Yep – Mommy’s lap – as good as chicken soup.
marymccurnin @ 13
Yeah, I was going to say. This doesn’t seem at all comparable to Katrina.
Also, Katrina was hit and done in three days boom boom boom, as I recall. And everything everywhere was hit at once, no place to retreat. This is much slower motion, time for people to get out and such. And the retreats can get stepped — pull back, and possibly pull back again if the fires advance.
Dollar amount might go higher, that’s possible.
LS @ 8
Except Junya don’t believe it’s torture. “Waterboarding, heck ah used to do that to Jebby.”
LS @ 8
General claims Bush gave ‘marching orders’ on aggressive interrogation at Guantanamo
What a Royal Jerk
Oh the irony — King Edward I establishes habeus corpus and King George 43 abjures it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 18
absolutely
and most especially now, I saw Mukasey balk at calling waterboarding torture.
Nature is taking her revenge on humans over developing.
Sad but that’s what nature does.
Rendition is so unlawful, it’s hard to comprehend… and how many people participate in these renditions and they always cover their faces… cowards that they are.
We get to see the results of inbreeding first hand.
Torture is not used primarily for information.
It is used to strike fear in others who would think of fighting against the USA. We don’t play by the Maquis of Queensbury rules no more, gloves are off.
It scares USA citizens too because they show that they can do it to anyone, anywhere and there is nothing you can do. There is no record, no lawyers… nothing.
Getting hit with a bullet is much easier to deal with then being tortured for years. They let people know they are doing this… so it is not completely secret.
Torture is used to terrorize people… all the people.
I think these people in the CIA.. and the US government should be arrested overseas and thrown into jail and left for a while as charges are drawn up… and then put on trial for crimes against humanity.
The whole lot of them. If only there were courts offshore who had the balls to do it.
Didn’t someone post a link this morning to the ACLU where two of their attorneys have written a book on something similar?
Yeah, ‘Administration of Torture‘
The war crimes are escalating as a result of (frustration?) or (desperation?).
NYT
There may be a change in ops going on which would explain the reduction in US KIAs. Reduce the dangerous patrols and just kill Iraqi civilians with combat air.
marymccurnin @ 13
I agree with you. Katrina had other elements that this disaster lacks for sure, like the blatant racism and disregard for the poor. They really don’t know how many have perished, in fact, in this disaster. I don’t believe they ever even came close to the death toll of Katrina. But….a disaster is a disaster personally to all who suffer, no matter what their reality….it is always a tragedy….so sad and so, so terrifying. They are talking 68,000 destroyed homes in this one too. Just to be very clear, I am not the one comparing it to Katrina per se, I am pointing out what the media is saying, and perhaps some would love to “diminish” the true impact of Katrina to assuage their guilt. Pain is pain.
Bush and his administration has tortured us too. Repeatedly.
Valerie on KO.
ccmask @ 32
and our Constitution, too
Valerie story, anyway…
Elliott @ 34
Yeah, Elliott. How are you?
ccmask @ 36
can’t complain, and you?
what’s growing… ;)
OKK if you are out there, we are waiting to hear from you.
Not much. Valerie looks great on KO.
(((OKK))))
ccmask @ 35
Live! *g*
I don’t see any reason why other nations should not have nukes if the USA and Russia, France, UK, Pakistan and Israel have them.
All nations need to be disarmed. And perhaps if the armed nations were willing to get rid of theirs… do as I do… not as I say… we might hope for a nuclear bomb free world.
Isn’t that what we want?
Oh year… I forgot MAD
To those who had concern for my daughter in San Diego, may I say thanks. I know who each of you are. My little Girl is fine. She spent last night at a couple of friends house and helped them move stuff out of their house since before dawn today. Pictures, pets and other special things. Her friend’s place is about two miles from a fire. She and her pals and their kids are in La Jolla tonight. I told her about your thoughts about her and her safety and she says to tell each of you she loves you. And that she reads FDL and your comments.
You guys are swell… kiddo
Yay OKK!
so glad to hear abt daughter, okk!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Woohoo!!! Great news OKK. Hugs all around.
(((((Ok kiddo)))))
Praying for your family.
So grateful that your daughter is safe.
Way to go Kiddo!
Right on Kiddo.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
I haven’t been around OKK and didn’t know of this. Glad they are safe.
Excellent news, OKK!
Toby Wollin @ 46
Thank the Mother and the Father spirits OKK.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Oh I’m so glad she checked in! Folks have been instructed not to use their cell phones (and/or dropped them in their haste) so I was hoping it was only a delay in reaching you and not real trouble.
good news OKK!
Christy,
This is such an important topic. I just CANNOT BELIEVE it hasn’t been covered in the MSM more. I can’t believe American Journalism would turn its collective back on this outrage.
PS to all firepups. I read Ghost Plane back when Lew Koch was covering the Padilla trial for FDL. It is a great piece of investigative reporting. Too bad this kind of reporting is so rare these days. our country is suffering from our own power, arrogance, and lack of oversight and accountability.
Seems to me that orders to do renditions are about as unlawful as one can issue? Who are the creeps who do this so easily?
Can we expect some accountability from those who carried this out.. or do they get retro active immunity?
Keith teasing with a Limpbaugh worst person after the current ad break….and also has George Carlin coming up on after Marie Osmand dance collapse.
Michael Hayden Director of the CIA will be on Charlie Rose again tonight.
I posted this earlier today on last night’s show.
Michael Hayden also opined that the rate of renditions was higher under Clinton. Shorter version: Nothing has changed at the CIA. They have just gotten cagier about it.
Why is there no comment from FDL people about this outrage?
Are you waiting for Fitz to bring charges?
Never gonna happen.
“The president wants to travel to California to witness firsthand what the people there are going through with these wildfires,” White House press secretary Dana Perino said. “He wants to ensure that the state and local governments are getting what they need from the federal government and he wants to make sure to deliver a message in person to the victims that he has them in his thoughts and prayers.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21435512/
The prezinet thumbing thru the Katrina playbook, hmmmm, chapter 1: offer thoughts & prayers, since 50% of the National Guard Equipment is in Iraq. Chapter 2: have FEMA send 280,000 bottles of water for 500,000 evacuees. Chaper 3: Put 12,000
evacueesrefugees in football stadium and thousands more in parking lot. Have 96 toilets available. Chapter 4: Flyover on Air Force One, memo to self, don’t forget to bring guitar.http://www.flickr.com/photos/asmythie/39536942/
Heck, I think he should save himself a trip and use the airforce one photo-op from Katrina.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..-515h.html
Chapter 5: Send Mama Barbara to comfort them “This is working very well for them….And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this–this (she chuckles slightly) is working very well for them.”
That it was done in the last administration means that THEY too are culpable of crimes against humanity.
Okay, done getting food chopped up for the crockpot in the morning. Good to come back and see all is well with OKK’s family. Now if we can only hear from rw and blub, I’ll feel even better…
Here’s a link to the CIA terror logo KO just showed on his show.
RockPaperScizzors @ 59
He must get off on it or something. Psycho.
Here’s Lederman’s take on Mukasey and torture…
“Mukasey can’t say that waterboarding is unlawful because OLC has already opined — several times over, apparently — that it’s not, and CIA operatives have acted in reliance upon that advice. Mukasey understandably is reluctant to publicly accuse those for whom he is about to work of being war criminals.
Just a reminder: How did OLC conclude that waterboarding was lawful?
Well, it’s not a violation of Common Article 3’s prohibition on cruel treatment because, under the MCA and the President’s recent otherworldly executive order, CA3 is misconstrued to be coterminous with the McCain Amendment.
And it doesn’t violate the McCain Amendent’s ban on cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment because, well, it doesn’t shock Dick Cheney’s conscience (see more here).
And why isn’t it just plain ol’ torture, as the U.S. has formally insisted for over a century? Because, even in its new-and-improved 2004 torture memo, OLC simply conjured up a statutory limitation out of whole cloth (that ’severe physical suffering’ requires ‘a condition of some extended duration or persistence’), precisely to be able to say that waterboarding isn’t torture.”
May Addington, Yoo, Bybee, et al… be rendered to The Hague…
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
An all day wait on the whereabouts and health of loved one, like OKK and his family went through today, and as many of us went through on 9-11, is agonizing.
Imagine not knowing for months — even years — where your loved ones were, what conditions they were living in, their health. Are they alive, could they be rescued…
BushCo = war criminals. I hope we also have a discussion on justice for the perps
For the 10,000th time, when are they gonna call Addington and Fielding in to testify??????
This whole torture kabuki is disgusting.
Where is the outrage? I don’t get it.
ccmask @ 62
look at it here
Ghost Plane is an incredible and very readable book. I’ve heard that Torture Taxi is as well, but haven’t read it.
It is only one small sliver of the extraordinary rendition picture, though. Be prepared to look at the whole picture and not just have pre-selected heroes and villains.
One thing that comes out if you look at this process is that the very first “extraordinary” renditions happened under Clinton. Grey’s book, as well as the Looming Towers, discuss one such extraordinary rendition – four men taken to Egypt illegally by the US to face torture and death for two of them, with all four giving confessions after torture.
In Jane Mayer’s “Outsourcing Torture” she details some of the background as well. http://www.newyorker.com/archi…..14fa_fact6 She also discusses the catch-22 Clinton handed off to the CIA and Scheuer is pretty open about discussing how the CIA came to be in the extraordinary rendition business and that he consulted with Mary Jo White to get them there.
In addition, while IMO the embassy bombings would have happened even without those renditions, it is still to the point that Zawahiri used those renditions and torture and executions as a partial justificiation and sent a notice out before the bombings that he would answer the Americans in kind for what they did.
Egypt was also the “torture to order” destination that helped provide Cheney’s crew with “evidence” (tortured to order) of Iraqi involvement in al-Qaeda training camps. Good to have a “go to” spot like that. And the FBI was very familiar with how Egpyt handled things. From the Mayer article:
There are some stories in Looming Tower as well, of Egyptian intelligence efforts to get Zawahiri by drugging two young boys, sodomizing them and taking pictures and using those pictures for blackmail to make the boys try to assassinate Zawahiri for them.
Keep those kinds of facts in mind when you read about the Higazy case. The court decision that came out recently is discussed here:
http://matthewyglesias.theatla…..higazy.php
but here’s what happened. Everyone is evacuated from a hotel on 9/11, including Higazy. Later, a hotel employee puts a communications device that an airlines pilot left in his room (one that lets you communicate with planes from the ground) in with Higazy’s stuff. When Higazy comes to get his stuff, the FBI is waiting for him and manages to get not one, not two, but three false confessions from Higazy.
We ONLY know about any of this (as opposed to having Higazy join Padilla on the list of hand offs to torture) bc the airline pilot showed up looking for his transmitter and the “classification” approach later perfected by DOJ hadn’t gone so far yet as to have the existence of the transmitter and its location stamped secret yet.
So Higazy is finally released and then USA for Manhatten, Comey, issues effusive praise of THE GUYS WHO GOT THE THREE FALSE CONFESSIONS. Yeah, whatever. After trying to go around the block lots of times on preventing any investigation into what happened at all. So the Higazy opinion comes out and is put online and includes all the info that has been in other public documents – pleadings, reports on the case, etc. Then the opinion disappears. Then it reappears with all the activities of the DOJ interrogator to use threats of Egyptian involvement redacted.
Ok – away from the rendition that “didn’t happen” (because Higazy was very lucky) to one that did – Arar. Keep in mind that the then Deputy Attorney General, Larry Thompson, who was acting AG bc Ashcroft was travelling, signed off on the paperwork to send Arar to Syria. This isn’t some fly by night rogue CIA operation, but rather #2 in the DOJ, acting in capacity as the Top Justice Official in the country – sending a man to certain torture.
The Arar lawsuit was filed when Clement told the Sup Ct. that “we don’t torture” and top Justice officials were specifically named (although you wouldn’t have guessed it for the press it received here). One of the later actions of then Dep AG (in his capacity as Acting AG bc of recusals) Comey was to sign off on the invocation of state secrets in the Arar case.
Another piece of the rendition puzzle that hangs out there – completely unaddressed – is what happened with the extraordinary rendition of KSM’s minor children? No one asks. KSM is pretty undisputably one of the bad guys – but what happened to his children?
Also keep in mind through all of this that we might still know next to nothing about any of those who ended up at GITMO, bc despite the rulings of the Sup Ct in Rashul, the Dep of Justice was preventing the release of the names of detainees – classified, secret info. So lawyers couldn’t know if someone was there or not. Until this man came forward:
http://www.harpers.org/archive…..c-90001490
Matthew Diaz. Lt. Cmmdr Matthew Diaz. While Jack Goldsmith was helping to smooth the waters for his boss, Haynes, to ok abuse at GITMO for everyone – even, as they soon knew, all the “mistakes” caught up in their illegal, human trafficking nets – and later penning pieces on how necessary GITMO is – Lt. Cmmdr Matthew Diaz actually made the names of the GITMO detainees available to lawyers who could represent them and paid the price. No sinecure in the Ivy League – no book deal before he came forward with information. Just a court martial and loss of license to practice military law.
Keep those kinds of balances in mind as you look at the rendition view. If you come with pre-selected heroes and villains, the facts won’t always oblige themselves.
The retro immunity for the telcoms is the precedent.
They will fess up… kinda sorta maybe… but the CIA and it’s agents are all going to be granted retro immunity. Let’s move on. I can here it now.
The vichy dem cowards creeps will all join in on this because they don’t want to be seen as vindictive and they will be shamed into salvaging the country and not waste time on old stuff.
They are gonna get a way with the torture. Wanna bet?
Mary at 69 — Did you see the article that NYTimes Magazine did on Diaz on Sunday? I’ll see if I can pull up the link for you if not — some bits in there I hadn’t seen before.
SanderO @ 70
I’m thinking the term “vichy Dems” is appropriate.
And let’s see the record number of pardons this President signs as he leaves office.
Found the Diaz link easier than I thought I would — here it is.
CTuttle @ 64
Lederman is spot on as far as he goes. He has said in the past he thinks that an OLC opinion may make people gold, but it can’t if, as Mukasey also opined, torture is unconstitutional. The Exec can’t opine itself out of liability for Consitutitonal violations.
But the bigger point not included in what you quoted (although Lederman may discuss it elsewhere) is that once the specific activities are confessed in public to be illegal and torture – - what happens on the classification front?
The only public Executive Order on classification says that illegal activity can’t be classified. A “classified” Exec Order may say something different, but any decent lawyer should easily find that the carve out for illegal acitivity isn’t an exercise in Executive discretion but is rather required by any interpretation of the Constitution that makes the President subject to law.
And so the classification fails, there is no valid state secrets reason for failing to provide information on the illegal activities, and all the worms crawl out.
A phone call…
Ring. Riiiiiiing.
“Hello, Senator Rockefeller’s office.”
“Hi there, my name’s Brendan Skwire, and I need some help from the Senator.
“It seems I’ve broken a few laws, and I’m looking at a felony conviction.
The judge has pretty much rejected my arguments of innocence, so I was wondering how much it will cost me to get Senator Rockefeller to write an ex post facto bill giving me immunity from my crimes. I don’t have as much money as AT&T, but since Senator Rockefeller’s selling indulgences, I was wondering how much it’ll cost me. Can you give me some idea?”
“Sir, if you’d just look at Senator Rockefeller’s website, he explai–”
“Oh yeah, I’ve been to his website. And I’ve also been reading about how the Senator didn’t get any donations to speak of from AT&T until 2006-2007, when it spiked by nearly $20,000, so I’ve been wondering how much will it cost me to buy Senator Rockefeller?”
“Sir, I’ll pass your message along.”
“Thanks. Hey, why’s he doing this anyway? He’s independently wealthy, and doesn’t need the $25,000 or whatever.”
“Sir–”
“And what gives him the right to sell of my Fourth Amendment rights? Those rights aren’t his to sell, and they’re worth a hell of a lot more than a measley $25,000. You might even say they’re priceless.”
“I’ll pass your message along.” -Click-
Hmmm… Real or…
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…../15451/504
Christy @ 71 – yes, the Horton Harper’s blog link I used (bc it added some analysis I liked) cites back to the article.
Diaz article
Eli is upstairs with more media wankery.
This is a link to the Higazy case that was put up earlier today.
http://www.psychsound.com/2007…..r_how.html
Thanks Hugh. Have you talked to a book agent yet? Get going.
SanderO — As I understand it, there are some limits on the discourse permissible on this blog: no advocacy of violence, for example, as I understand it. So, while you may be looking for suggestions along those lines, they won’t appear here.
That said, there are people here whom one ought to take very, very seriously, if I read behind the lines correctly. You may just have to listen as though you were in tall grass and waiting to hear the tiger cough.
“Drown it in a bathtub”?
Super Katrina is a stunning indictment of Libertarian/Gooper ideology.
And MSM just necklaced the GOP with this?
That’s an a opportunity (and a win) for our side.
re Katrina / SD
I’ve been calling the catastrophe California’s Katrina, and I’m glad MSM are doing the same.
Hell, I hope they picked it up from me – but the comparison is obvious, so I’m sure even MSM figured it out without my help.
NOLA flooded because LA was deliberately starved of the resources needed to prevent disaster: the Corps chose cheaper (and less effective) construction methods; our national anti-tax loonies (paid shills for the GOP/megacorps/Club For “Growth”) created the political environment in which the most basic public expenditures for our common good are “too expensive” or “socialism”; the megacorps divert public resources for private gain (bye, wetlands and barrier swamps – hello oil and gas canals).
The national lunacy the megacorp shills at Club For Growth have pushed upon our nation is the same delusion Big Rail and Big Corporate Property pushed on CA in the late 70’s:
slashing public resources, sacrificing public good to corporate coffers (by slashing corporate axes), deliberate sacrifice of public health and safety for private profit…
Sound like the public policy that left NOLA defenseless before a Cat 3 surge?
Sure does to me.
So I’m delighted to see the meme “Super Katrina” spread.
The point is the conditions that create the casualties – not the body count or the race of the victims.
Racism is alive and well in CA also – no denying it.
Focusing on the melanin in the victims’ skin or the number of headstones looks at the surface, but misses the mechanism.
Super Katrina is a stunning indictment of Libertarian/Gooper ideology.
And MSM just necklaced the GOP with this?
That’s an a opportunity (and a win) for our side.
or… from an earlier thread:
57 – Hayden didn’t go through the difference between “renditions” and “extraordinary renditions” I bet.
Renditions aren’t great, but are somewhat de rigueur. In those cases, Country A (aw, let’s just use USA) has a valid criminal complaint against someone (X). X is in a foreign country that wouldn’t mind the US having X but, for some reason, the foreign country is not in a position to follow through on the USAs formal request for extradition or perhaps there is every likelihood that a formal extradition proceeding will give X the opportunity to disappear.
So in that kind of situation, if the US goes in or works with others to go in and kidnap X and TAKE X TO THE UNITED STATES FOR AN ACTUAL TRIAL WITH LAWYERS, EVIDENCE AND DUE PROCESS AND CONTACT WITH HIS FAMILY AND REPRESENTATIVES AND DID I MENTION EVIDENCE? that is a “rendition.” Not pretty, subject to some possiblities of bad things going wrong, but an option used for a long time that has a fair trial (or what used to pass as such before the dejustificiation of DOJ and the seeding of courts with Loyal Bushies).
Extraordinary Rendition is the US doing the kidnapping, but once they have custody NOT taking the person for trial in the US, but rather for torture somewhere. Like maybe Diego Garcia
Meanwhile, when, instead of a bipolar London chef you have someone like Monzer Kassar taken into custody in Spain (remember Spain, where we first swore no rendition planes landed, then went back and swore the rendition planes that landed only landed when the rendees had already been delivered for torture, not on the way there, and where the courts seemed to not quite believe us even then) you have to wonder to what extent his lawyers now have valid grounds to asset to Spain that they will be violating the Torture Conventions if they send him to the US, a known state solicitor and sponsor of torture.
It’s pretty laughable to hear all the attorneys who were fine with the torture and kidnap and human trafficking lament over the ill effects a Monica Goodling brought to DOJ.
Mary @ 82
i’ve come to the conclusion that selective political prosecutions are beyond the pale – may affect someone they actually know.
kidnaping and torture? not so much.
it’s not the crime that counts, it’s the target.
SanderO @ 70
This was already granted to them right before the Nov. 2006 elections with the Warner/McCain/Graham “Its Ok to Torture Bill”.
And Junya signed it into law.
Mad Dogs @ 84
oct. 17, 2006
Yes, I noticed this program @ the pbs website and plan to watch.
Also, tonight on Frontline @ 10:00 p.m. program on Iran. Looks very good, if anyone is interested. (I saw a short clip but can’t remember where!)
83 – I think that is part of it Selise. I also think that they all “bought in” for so long and helped promote the line that we only had bad guys at GITMO and being churned through the rendition factory (all the debate was on how we were ‘treating the terrorists’ with no one even mentioning the NON-terrorists) that they have two big problems now.
First, if they do anything now it highlights all the time they did nothing and makes them look that much more ineffective and spineless and devoid of morality. I’ve talked to people who aren’t political who really believe things like: “we’re trying to give lawyers to those people at GITMO and they just won’t talk to them – what are we supposed to do?” Those are the people who, if you sit them down and explain things to them, are flabbergasted to the point of disbelief that neither Democrats nor Republicans are doing anything about it – as one person challenged me on a horse forum “if that’s true, why don’t we hear the candidates for President saying anything about it and why isn’t anyone doing anything to help those people?” Well, the more it comes out that no one helped them, the less anyone looks good.
Second, by not doing anything, not for days, or weeks, or months – but for years – they have set up a situation where the shipments to places like GITMO and elsewhere were unquestionably shipments of protected persons that are war crimes. That’s even without all that was done to the on the way there, before they go there in beatings at Bagram, the drugging for flights, the stripping, beatings, months and months of solitary, etc. at GITMO. All with no words from the Clintons, Obamas, Dodds (or the Sherrod Browns for that matter – who were happy to use “evil terrorists” as a meme to help get them elected without any care or concern or apology for what they did). So now to do anything on the up and up, you are looking at all kinds of people in the military and intelligence and DOJ being involved in war crimes – - and no will among Democrats for the perceived unpopular activity of trying them for those crimes.
So it’s easiest to just pretend it isn’t happening, dutifully say “torture is bad” but never follow through on consequences. Bc imposing consequences on anyone give Rush Limbaugh another wet noodle to beat them with. So they abandon their duty to the Constituiton and country instead. It’s easier.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
Thanks, Christy! As usual, you’re right on!
Bob in HI
Final note – this DOJ will go down as the one that was able to successfully cover up el-Masri’s torture, with his case now denied cert by US Sup Ct.
They’ve gone full circle. Solicit the torture. Advise the torture. Cover up the torture. Reveal the torture. Prevent the torture victim from being able to pursue the DOJ officials who sent him in for torture.
Yeah for the rule of law.
Mary @ 87
A trait we share with monkeys.
If there are 2 choices, easy and hard, 99.9999999 percent of the time, humans will chose easy.
It’s a wonder we’ve managed to make it this far, but heck, dinosaurs existed for hundreds of millions of years.
The odds as quoted in Lost Wages for us making it another thousand or so years are probably highly unfavorable, so in the end, the monkeys may collect the winnings.
Mary @ 87
and the longer it is ignored, the harder it is to turn back from.
we knew there was torture by the winter of 2002 (obviously not all the details, but i remember reading reports from organizations like physicians for human rights). i remember getting in a big “discussion” with a co-worker (a scientist, supposedly trained in critical thinking) who ultimately refused to believe anything bad like torture was happening (regardless of all the reports) because he wasn’t reading about it on msnbc.
i think the op-ed from npr perfectly captures the mindset of willful ignorance. it’s even given a name to make it seem like a good thing, “constructive hypocrisy.”
this is one reason i wish al gore would run for president – he’s been consistently speaking out against our policy of torture for at least a couple of years.
sorry for the rant… but this continues to both break my heart and make me furious.
Elliott @ 16
Negroponte…El Salvador…Bush mafia…
It’s not new, just noticed more now.
Remember, the Republicans don’t recant on their ideas, they just revise their performance.
The absolutely most fucked-up thing about all this is that it’s happening now. In our name. This is beyond dispute. I don’t know about any of you but I’m running into a wall here. I feel the powers that be are so big, so omnipotent that we’ve been rendered helpless. Can you or I stop a military attack on Iran? Can we? Can we stop the gutting of our constitutional rights about fairness and the rule of law? The obvious answer is no. We can’t. We haven’t. We won’t. When it all comes down, this isn’t about government, it’s about us. You. Me. We have not met the challenge. We have let it slip away. We’ve already lost many of our freedoms. This is our reality. Shit. Double shit.
Meanwhile, the film “Rendition” is well worth seeing.