Elliot Spitzer wants to give driver’s licenses to undocumented immigrants, which of course makes him the devil.
From the NYT:
Critics of Mr. Spitzer’s plan are trying to paint it as a threat to national security. But as the governor outlined in a speech on Friday, there are important ways in which the opposite is true. His plan would give faces and addresses to many of the one million people who are not here legally, who live in the shadows. It would also make it vastly more difficult for someone to get more than one license. Richard Clarke, an adviser under the last four presidents, mostly on national security issues, has said that making driver’s licenses available to immigrants regardless of their legal status would promote security because “it is far preferable for the state to know who is living in it and driving on its roads.”
The frustrations of the plan’s critics are understandable, but their quarrel is with Washington, which continues to avoid addressing the immigration problem head-on. Mr. Spitzer’s proposal for making driver’s licenses more broadly available is a calm injection of reason into a subject that has seen too little of it.
This debate is ridiculous. No matter where you stand on immigration, from a practical standpoint denying drivers licenses to undocumented immigrants only makes sense if your desire is to make their lives as miserable as possible:
Under Spitzer’s plan, starting in December DMV offices will begin carefully screening valid foreign passports using a new electronic verification system and, once verified (which can take up to four or six weeks), will then issue licenses to those who, along with the rest of those with valid immigration status, have passed the Driver’s Test and can provide proof of insurance. According to a report by the AAA, it’s clear the increase in driver regulation will reduce accidents; according to Spitzer, it will also save New York drivers around $120 million in insurance fees. It’s simple economics: once you increase supply (in this case of car insurance), the price of said insurance will go down. That’s good news for all New York drivers, particularly middle class ones increasingly affected by income inequality and skyrocketing insurance rates.
The Republican Party is certainly not loath to play the jingoism/bigot card, no matter what the social price tag is. It’s no coincidence that all the GOP candidates won’t get near debates that address the concerns of black voters, or that Rudy Giuliani (and his history with Abner Louima and others) is beloved by conservatives despite his pro-choice background.
I heard John McCain groveling (once again) before Wolf Blitzer yesterday, changing his tune on immigration and saying that his previous position had hurt him with the base. It was pathetic. Racism against undocumented workers is the mating call of the Lone Caucasian Wingnut, no matter what the cost is. McCain looked shameless as he crawled for breadcrumbs from the bigots. Spitzer’s willingness to take that on (and earn their subsequent wrath) is laudatory.




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zed?
That was easy.
Only us two?
I just got back from ordering Valerie’s book at Amazon and even read the post before commenting.
OT
Just downstairs, FDL has made Journalistic history. Many thanks to you all.
Hello, Jane…
Biodun @ 6
Hi, Biodun.
Giving driver’s licenses to undocumented immigrants also helps with the percentage of insured drivers and helps create a culture in which immigration papers are the only way that these folks are not law-abiding. Helps them feel more like they belong and gets them started on the road to participating more fully in society. Not to mention getting more people to read the rules of the road handbooks.
Astral Technician @ 5
We were there. I was just lurking, not wanting to clog up the toobz. ;~)
Hi Jane.
The downstairs thread was and still is amazing. Thanks so much for arranging her visit.
I’m here, I just decided to keep my mouth shut during the last thread!
raven @ 11
are your lips bloody?
As a resident of Arizona, this is a huge issue. We have a high incident of hit & run accidents and our uninsured driver coverage here is very expensive.
This solution is so reasonable but the wingnuts just get their panties in a wad because in their next breath….then undocumented persons then would be getting welfare & medicaid. BUT then they would NOT be undocumented workers, there could be a handle on how many truly ARE in the country.
Again logic and wingnut thinking never are within the same world view.
Jane- Thanks for the GREAT PLAME BOOK SALON! And also a round of applause for the Moderators who very likely kept many scores of trolls from spoiling the session.
An idea, maybe you could invite Laura Rozen, who wrote the afterword to “Fair Game” to talk about her section…and perhaps have Marcy on as well. Lot’s of stuff not discussed due to legal restrictions by Ms. Plame might be answerable in such a context.
Jane and Sidney,
Thank you for having Ms. Wilson at the FDL book salon today, and all your other work, well at least the parts of your work that I get to read here and at Salon.
I trust you to get the story straight, represent it fairly, recognize the forest through the trees and share your views with us, your reading public. Thank you. Thank you.
TexBetsy @ 10
Hi Jane.
The downstairs thread was and still is amazing. Thanks so much for arranging her visit.
What she said.
Thank you.
Have to rest my eyes, but just heard this on the radio and you will enjoy:
Retirican village, the all Republican retirement community
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..d=15512580
Thanks again for the salon, Jane, great.
Breaking my ‘vow of silence’ to say thank you FDL! I learn so much here.
raven @ 11
I spoke up. Couldn’t let misconceptions about book publishing slide by…
zennurse @ 17
How are those lamps Zen?
Hi Jane…I was here too, but kept quiet. (And tried to concentrate on work while clicking Refresh every so often…) Congrats again.
Has there been a voter poll done on this (D/L) issue in NY? Or for that matter anywhere? Where do the Democratic presidential candidates stand on this?
And Jane:
Have I said this before? Luv ya…
Biodun @ 19
yea, I didn’t have anything to add of value. When they started on Powell I almost jumped in but it would have been OT.
Iwonder if this would be as controversial if Lou Dobbs were not stirring up his own frothy brew of nativism every single night on CNN?
Ahgoo @ 18
Thanks for de-lurking. Welcome.
raven @ 11
Valerie is one impressive lady. Towards the end of the conversation I did try to find out whether or not she will be in the Atlanta area.
JPL @ 27
Larry King is in the Apple, right?
Here is what’s so amazing, these people are driving anyway. That’s how you get to the grocery store. If there is any place in the immigration debate that makes sense, it’s having them qualify for drivers license. I had to take a written test and driving test. That meant I had to study the manual to know the rules of driving. One you have a license and you purchase or rent a car, you must have auto insurance.
Please, let immigrants (of any status) apply for a driver’s license. And, while you’re at it, give some thought to people who are ninety and still driving.
This is the kind of issue that sends Republics into a petulant frenzy. Too bad that they’re so frequently successful in making these the issues elections turn on.
Wow. See how well Dodd’s doing in the Kos straw poll?
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../132221/88
Very impressive.
That’s what you get when you stand on your feet.
Leadership polls over on Kos
Reid
Pelosi
Jane, you said
I believe this is the goal of many on that side of the issue. The belief being, that if they are miserable, they’ll go “home.”
raven @ 24
I wonder if Mr. Powell had done something, say in the manner of Ellitot Richardson and spoken out on the Bush fabrications, if lives might have been saved?
I checked the link to S & S’s plame book schedule. It doesn’t look like she will be anywhere near the middle of the country, except for Santa Fe this year. It is all east and west coast. Betsy, when she comes to Austin, I’ll be there!
Isn’t it a requirement to have a D/L to procure automobile insurance?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
Not necessarily. Some drivers do not own cars.
Biodun@23 me 2, this is a wonderful place!
You people are all so learned, one can acquire quite an education here.
Raven, I’m not sure where King is but hopefully while Valerie is doing her book tour she’ll include Atlanta. If she does come to Atlanta, I plan on wearing a FDL pup name tag or something. (kidding!)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
I don’t know, but we have tons of uninsured motorist citations given out here in Texas. It’s quite a problem.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
It sure as hell wouldn’t have cost anymore!
OT–
I saw Sen Harry Reid on CSPAN an hour ago talking about the new Senate FISA bill, but couldn’t figure out if he was scheduling action on it, or just talking about what a lovely bill it was. He didn’t say anything about holds or filibusters, but I missed the beginning of his comments. Then they immediately went into a quorum call (because they were obviously lacking one.)
Anyone else know what’s going on with that?
Bob in HI
JPL @ 39
Too bad Oxford Book s is gone.
TexBetsy @ 37
Aren’t they still responsible for having some kind of coverage, either their own or the car’s owner, if they drive?
QuakerGirl @ 44
I believe insurance is the responsibility of the car’s owner, but I am not certain.
NY state: nothing here about having to be insured.
There are a lot of people much younger than that who need their licenses removed, though, and most of them are born citizens. They are not, however, safe drivers. (Some of them are impaired by dementia or other conditions, and their families know it and won’t take away the keys. Some of them are simply drivers who enjoy the risks they’re taking, and think that proves they’re ‘good drivers’.)
TexBetsy @ 37
That seems to beg the question: if one doesn’t drive, why get a D/L? One can get a state issued non-D/L picture ID card.
What Jane said:
And let’s note:
The Repugs have no African-Americans in the US Congress at the moment. None.
Republicans don’t have any common sense whatsoever. Even the most obvious no-brainer proposals must be trashed. Terror of losing power & being held accountable for anything trumps anything no matter how logical or beneficial to all of us. It’s all about the them not the all of us.
Biodun @ 49
hmm… I wonder why that is
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
The Snarky one is getting a license in early November, but I am not adding her to my insurance —- her brother is adding her to his. She’ll be able to drive his truck regularly but not my car.
So tell me – where do undocumented people buy insurance (answer: NOT POSSIBLE!).
So tell me again why the rest of us should be for this and be financially liable for any accidents with an illegal immigrant regardless of who is at fault?
Fox News created a very hostile environment for Ron Paul in the debates last night. Rigged the audience, rigged the questions, and Hannity even refused to believe his own after-debate poll results.
Ron Paul won anyway — 35% of votes.
AUDIO SPIN ROOM FOX DEBATES: RON PAUL INTERVIEW
WIN’S WITH 35%,,,FOX Hannity IN SHOCK!
http://www.apfn.net/pogo38/L018I071021-186G.MP3
TexBetsy @ 52
Won’t she have to provide D/L proof to be added to an existing auto-insurance plan?
If you give illegal immigrants drivers’ licenses, then only drivers’ licenses will have illegal immigrants….or something…
TexBetsy @ 45
California is pretty strict. Nevada, until recently (one year ago), was even dismissive in fatalities. Now the state has manslaughter laws more in line with California. If it is up to each state, would’t that mean undocumented immigrants would be able to get a drivers license in some states and not in others?
littlebear @ 53
Please…. they are undocumented persons….. NO human is illegal…..
QuakerGirl @ 56
That is already the case.
Tom @ 56
So who pays if you have an accident with one – and how do you enforce driving while intoxicated laws for undocumented aliens?
katymine @ 58
You can be illegally in a country… But it wasn’t your point to add anything constructive to the dialog, was it?
katymine @ 58
Thank.You.
Not sure if this is correct. Must show proof of ins. to register car, not necessary to get a driver’s license.(my bold)
It would seem proper, at least to me, that if undocummented immigrants are allowed access to D/L’s then they should also be granted access to auto insurance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
Or versa visa!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
I don’t recall having to provide proof of citizenship or a green card in order to get insurance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
And please explain to me how you “underwrite” and assess the risk of an “undocumented” person?
having mostly missed the V. Plame thread in real time, my evening reading will consist of perusing it from start to finish.
The term “illegal” is dehumanizing. It is a way to marginalizing a group of people. It makes it easier for them to be hated and targeted. It is part of the hate the brown people….
Insurance laws vary by state and administered by each state Department of Insurance.
Spitzer is getting hell for this. It’s too bad.
I think he’s not the first or the last to think of this idea. Destefano of New Haven for one. Probably other mayors as well.
littlebear @ 67
How about you take their money and then don’t pay off when they file. BTW, anybody ever got Mexican Insurance when driving there? Talk about a racket.
littlebear @ 66
How do you do so for a 16 year old?
Just curious how this would work.. IIRC, one needs birth certificates and SS cards as proof of identity when asking for state issued ID or DL.. How would a uninvited guest in the US get around such obstacles?
Also… would an uninvited guest be willing to state their address, making it much easier for ICE and others looking for them?
In Oklahoma you are required to present a birth certificate and SS card to take the written D/L test.
punaise @ 67
Please do. I assure you, you’ll find it entertaining. And not everyone was well-behaved. Ils sont faitent un peu de connerie…
litlebear @ 60
Your insurance covers it. That’s why your insurance costs so much.
As for DUIs, the same way as they enforce it with citizens. Except afterward they likely might deport them. And they won’t be able to enter Canada after, either (arrest record).
insurance underwriting is done by performing a risk assessment in your local area. What are the odds of me getting into an accident with an insured motorists in Arizona and specifically in Phoenix where around 500,000 undocumented persons may be living.
Then they take the average dollar amount of historical accidents then rate the premium for my risk. Also we need to add the number of legal Mexican nationals driving here hitting our outlet malls who may or might not be insured.
Here’s a possible problem related to insurance. How are you going to ensure an undocumented person with a D/L involved in an automoble accident, won’t skip out?
There’s a good article in today’s Post about what a local anti-immigrant campaign looks like:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..725_3.html
Biodun @ 75
I agree.
ES @ 73
Well, they might have an ID from their home country which would work – I know Mexico issues something like that, even through their consulates. Also, baptismal certificates are frequently accepted – I used one when I registered to vote, not having a DL or a passport at the time.
Jane, The Republicans think that they have the winning formula for 2008. They always think that racism is a winning formula don’t they. Years ago my aunt died in an accident caused by a migrant worker who was driving without a license in Florida. It never made sense to me that immigrants were discouraged from getting their license when states knew that they would drive. What Spitzer is doing is protecting the citizens of NY.
TexBetsy @ 37
However, it is usually required to have insurance to register the car and get tags.
raven @ 71
Don’t some american insurance companies have some kind of racket? I think I saw this on PBS, Frontline, Moyers, I forget. Some companies have this rule where they only pay a certain percentage of claims per year(?) and then the people that fall in the unlucky percentage column don’t get any payoff no matter how valid their claims are, and get investigated, and investigated etc. etc. anything to delay any payment.
littlebear @ 67
Wow — what a red herring!
You underwrite coverage for an undocumented immigrant the same way you underwrite coverage for anyone else: look at where the live, what they drive, how they use their car(s), etc. C’mon. Don’t be silly.
katymine @ 69
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, it I am breaking a law about entering and residing in a country, its “illegal” any way you dice it.
And to say, “insurance varies by states” is a cop-out – insurance companies don’t write coverage for “undocumented” people.
OT but on the general theme of justice:
Mistrial in Muslim Charity Case
Another story to feed the suspicion that these cases are rigged.
katymine @ 77
uuuuummmmmmmm…
close, but no cigar – they do underwrite you as an individual too. But your also right – people without insurance do affect the way an area is rated too – increasing the cost – but that isn’t really an argument for giving illegal aliens driving licenses, is it?
In fact, it gets back to the point that everyone else will have to pay…
I do think the Federal government needs to step in and standardize procedures for the issuance of a D/L. For example the last time I applied for a D/L in Sacramento, California, I was told my birth certificate was not an acceptable form of ID. In Oklahoma I was told I must present a birth certificate to take the written D/L exam.
P J Evans @ 76
No – undocumented people just change their identify – its really easy cuz they are, you know, undocumented…
P J Evans @ 81
And, ummmmm…. how many undocumented people actually are going to provide documentation – after all, it is their “undocumented” status that caused the issue in the first place, right?
The argument a drivers license is a path to legalizing all undocumented immigrants reminds me of the same straw dog argument that if you paid black workers the same as white workers for the same job, they may marry your daughter. The next question was, “Do you want them to marry your daughter too”? Try that leap in logic and your head spins.
burnspbesq @ 85
Where they park their car, how old they are . . . Umm what city they live in.
Risk assessment…
Area where you live (plus/-) number of miles you drive a year (plus/-) type of car that you drive (plus/-) your age/sex (plus/-) your driving history [not necessarily in that order]
Then they plug it into some premium formula for your risk level == insurance rate
burnspbesq @ 85
You obviously don’t handle your own insurance – you get rated as an individual too. Of course, even if “undocumented” people are offered insurance – it will be at the highest rates possible, so not likely it will be purchased anyhow.
Are we prepared to say that a person who drives should have two things? A D/L and insurance?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
I don’t know how it works..last week my niece and her daughter were rear-ended..major damage to car..minor injuries. Undocumented, no license, no insurance..Haven’t heard how that will turn out.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 95
yes.
katymine @ 94
….and how do you find the “driving history” of an undocumented person?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
OKK to the heart of the matter.
Yes.
Biodun:
Ooh. That wasn’t French.
littlebear @ 88
We are already paying. How does the Spitzer proposal change that?
And yes, I do handle my own insurance.
Jane, I was able to follow the Plame thread (most of it anyway). Congrats, that was sooo impressive!! Bravo to FDL–and of course the Libby trial is what alerted me to this blog in the first place, like many others.
I’m just curious. Was the troll patrol extra busy for her thread?
RBG @ 102
You think you are paying now – just wait till these bills roll in…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 89
Just since ‘02, I have held IL, NY, CO, FL, and TX Drivers Licenses. I have a copy of my birth certificate and think I’ve had to show it but I’ve also had to show SSN, the old DL I was giving up among the “valid” forms of ID.
littlebear @ 99
Well, clearly, issuing driving licenses to them would be a step in that direction.
dakine01 @ 105
Oh – well then giving licenses to people without documentation should be fine, right? Sounds like the rest of us are carrying enough documentation and insurance for EVERYONE!
TeddySanFran @ 106
Not really – if you can’t verify who they are in the first place, what good is the license in terms of identifying – it is easy enough to just become “undocumented” again, isn’t it?
OT – any word from Loo Hoo and/or Old Coastie. The evacutions appear increasingly numerous in and around San Diego.
The first issue of issuing a drivers license is that driver MUST have passed a written & driving test. Now I know that when I have seen my teens get their licenses that is no guarantee of driving skills but it is a start.
At least the state will know that driver X knows the driving laws of that state and could master specified driving skills.
littlebear @ 108
littlebear – In California, to buy and register a car, I have to show proof of insurance. The DMV has our thumbprints on file. Need more documentation?
Sick..
On the October 22 edition of his nationally syndicated radio program, host Glenn Beck stated, “I think there is a handful of people who hate America. Unfortunately for them, a lot of them are losing their homes in a forest fire today.” Beck continued: “There are a few people that hate America. But I don’t think the Democrats are those. I think there are those posing as Democrats that are like that.” Beck’s comment came as forest fires ravaged parts of Southern California, leaving one person dead, four firefighters wounded, and forcing about 1,500 people from their homes, according to The New York Times.
MM
I am very unclear on the arguments against Spitzer’s proposal being presented on this thread, littlebear. Are you opposed because issuing licenses to undocumenteds will make insurance more expensive for the rest of us, or are you opposed because our insurance is already too expensive because of the undocumenteds?
Seems to me you can only advance one of those arguments per thread.
littlebear @ 95
Well, I’ve never been involved in an accident with an undocumented person, insured or otherwise. I HAVE been hit but by a US citizen/mouth breather type with no insurance and DL. Which is why I paid higher rates in places like AL and TX for the same coverage or less than when I lived places like CO, upstate NY, IL or CT
littlebear @ 108
You did read the original post right? You know where the starting premise was that the person in question had a current valid passport?
littlebear @ 104
It really doesn’t matter to my insurance rates if the uninsured driver who hits my car has a driver’s license or not. My insurance still pays….and it has done so twice in the last 5 years for accidents caused by people who are native born Americans with valid driver’s licenses.
Do you have specific information about how offering driver’s licenses to undocumented immigrants will affect my insurance rates? If so, I’d love to see it. If not, this sure seems like a strawman to me.
John Dean is on Randi Rhodes right now
dakine01 @ 115
I think that would be a no, dakine01.
let’s start a new insurance company: ActurialBlue
RBG @ 116
So when your insurance paid, who actually paid the premiums for the claim?
Is this really so hard to wrap your mind around or do you think there are just buckets of money out there waiting for you to hit the jackpot.
solai @ 63
Here in Ohio you can’t renew your Driver’s License without showing proof of insurance.
newtonusr @ 118
Sure I read the original post – just pointing out that it isn’t that simple and that there are a variety of ways to look at illegal immigration — you can’t actually manufacturer consensus — but I see you are doing your best.
punaise @ 119
Better yet – single payer auto coverage – just a small tax at the pump and get the “middle men” out of it all together.
When a young adult gets insurance it is very high. I can attest to this I paid for both my daughters. Talk about insurance poor. I don’t know which was worse, car insurance or their braces. They were in a high risk group and they had no personal track record. As my Mom got older, her insurance went up, up, up. I don’t think “high risk category” is targeting non-citizens with no verifiable track record. Not to defend insurance companies (still in dispute with one) but there must be some criteria to determine risk.
littlebear @ 120
When I was involved with an uninsured/unlicensed driver, it was MY premiums that paid for my coverage and claim for that was part of my policy to have that level of coverage.
As well as the premiums of others who carried the same level of coverage as I did.
raven @ 11
can you “talk” freely now?
OT-I now have a new awareness of blogads (or lack thereof). More than any other product, books should be advertised at this site. Thanks to all the courageous who brought this subject to light.
To me…. having every person who intends to drive on our roads should have a drivers license which means that person pass a written & drivers skills test AND the state will know who is driving on their roads.
I would feel so much safer knowing that the drivers are certified to be on the road AND their cars have passed inspection for safety.
littlebear – read the fourth graf again:
What is your complaint?
newtonusr @ 111
Well I am sure that adds a lot to the New York Driver’s License Debate
newtonusr @ 100
amen to that.
katymine @ 128
So how do you “certify” someone when you cannot even document who they are (remember – undocumented immigrants)?
solai @ 127
I hope those who thought the blogads discussion was inappropriate have hit the donate button today.
katymine @ 117
Lahoma and I listening now, thanks to your tip.
littlebear @ 132
Do you understand the difference between undocumented and, um, covert?
newtonusr @ 129
Read the post:
No matter where you stand on immigration, from a practical standpoint denying drivers licenses to undocumented immigrants only makes sense…
littlebear @ 130
More than your ill-informed and support-free comments have…
If you’ve got actual data to support your assertions, let’s take a look.
TeddySanFran @ 135
Yes – has something about being able to leak their identify when they work for the CIA, doesn’t it?
Valerie Plame was a covert agent, but if she was undocumented, then the neocons would have left her alone, right?
boadicea @ 137
Not like you had any data either – but that’s FAUX news tactics, right? Demand the world from the other guy and distract from the fact you have nothing yourself.
hahaha i’m done
Most politicians don’t care about D/L’s, insurance, or documentation. What they’re concerned about is the politics of the issue.
littlebear @ 136
If you’re going to quote the post, do it completely.
Your argument has no steam left, and now you’ve misrepresented the front page, flagrantly.
Adios.
It’s time for decent politicians to put the scaremongering wing-nuts in their place. They now have far too large of a voice on the national stage. They are treated far too politely.
Enough is enough.
TeddySanFran @ 140
I must commend you on your getting this far!
littlebear @ 136
Okay, you do understand that the word “undocumented” means “Not having the needed documents for permission to live or work in a foreign country,” it doesn’t mean they can’t prove who they are, right?
littlebear @ 136
Why is this so? Why does it make sense to keep people underground? Why does it NOT make sense to attempt to bring some percentage of them above ground and into the light? Please explain your logic here for as it is right now, there is no logic involved other than punishment.
A driver’s license is proof of driving eligibility. The problem is that it has also become a proof of identity.
One might say: It’s okay for you to mow my lawn, change my sheets at the Holiday Inn and take care of my kids, all for very poor pay and with no benefits. But people like you are not about to have D/L. You can just damn well walk to work, take a cab, or hitch-hike for all I care.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 141
It’s the phony issue of the day, IMO. The Republicans they can only win with racist arguments because tax cuts for the rich only goes so far.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 148
But such people DO drive, use our roads without certification of knowing the laws, operate autos while neither licensed nor insured. Denying people a license doesn’t stop them from driving. It just makes them “illegal” in another new and creative way.
OT
Another woman whose life has been irreversibly altered by the warmongering thugs in the Bush administration:
“The first evening we arrived, exhausted, dragging suitcases behind us, morale a little bit bruised, the Kurdish family sent over their representative – a 9 year old boy missing two front teeth, holding a lopsided cake, “We’re Abu Mohammed’s house- across from you- mama says if you need anything, just ask- this is our number. Abu Dalia’s family live upstairs, this is their number. We’re all Iraqi too… Welcome to the building.”
I cried that night because for the first time in a long time, so far away from home, I felt the unity that had been stolen from us in 2003.”
http://riverbendblog.blogspot……3835220137
People can obtain an International Drivers License, and use THAT to drive for a limited period of time (1 month…which I believe is the same as allowed for an out-of-state license)…so I’m unsure why not issuing a NY or CA Drivers License would somehow prevent an otherwise undocumented worker from driving. I don’t know if they can obtain insurance without documentation, though. But I would bet if someone has the International DL and a credit card they can get a rental car and get the insurance.
If someone can be certified in the State to drive, the roads would be that much safer. If they can’t establish their driving record they can be insured as a “novice” (a beginning driver) at THOSE rates.
shiny new thread upstairs…
Cranking it up on Iran…based on?
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..22/1415247
Cheney: Iran Faces “Serious Consequences”
In a major speech in Washington, Vice President Dick Cheney issued a new series of warnings to Iran on Sunday over its alleged nuclear program and its involvement in Iraq.
* Dick Cheney: “The Iranian regime needs to know that if it stays on its present course, the international community is prepared to impose serious consequences. The United States joins other nations in sending a clear message: We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon.”
Vice President Cheney also accused Iran of having a direct role in the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq. Cheney’s comments came just days after President Bush warned that World War III could begin if Iran obtains the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. Former U.S. Middle East Envoy Dennis Ross say Cheney and Bush’s comments mark a significant escalation of rhetoric against Iran.
Sen. Clinton on Iran: “All Options Must Remain On The Table”
On the campaign trail, Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton continues to promote a hawkish stance on Iran. In a new article in Foreign Affairs, Clinton writes “If Iran does not comply with its own commitments and the will of the international community, all options must remain on the table.”
Report: UK Special Forces Crossed Into Iran As Part of “Secret War”
Meanwhile the Sunday Times of London reports British special forces have crossed into Iran several times in recent months as part of a secret war along the Iran-Iraq border. The paper reported the British troops have targeted members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard”s Al-Quds special forces.
Jane Hamsher @ 31
These people obviously don’t live in a boarder state like I to in Arizona. Hit and run accidents are incredibly common because there are so many illegals who can’t get licenses but they drive anyway. It doesn’t matter how good a person they are. When faced with arrest deportation and possible disappearing because they aren’t supposed to be driving. . they run like hell. They also have no insurance even if they don’t run because they can’t get it.
katymine @ 13
It seems to me that it behooves us to protect ourselves by giving some kind of standard identification to anyone coming into the country. Who we let in and how many is a separate issue, but I would think that it should be much easier to protect the borders (with the few border patrol we’re using) if the mass of immigrants feel comfortable coming through standard checkpoints. We would be able to spot others coming across the border in odd locations much easier — they would stand out like a sore thumb. We could also spread our border patrol a bit thinner to cover more border area.
For national security we need to let people come through ‘normally’ and with identification, so the dangerous potential enemy who would seek to sneak in illegally, and maybe with weapons, would be easier to catch.
JF @ 33
Of course, there are some who are going to be so far from home that they simply wouldn’t want to ever go back. But, for some who live in northern Mexico, it would be great if they had a visitor/worker status which would let them come here to work (if they like) and return home whenever they want. Giving them some flexibility would possibly keep down the number moving here permanently.
One thing the wingnuts forget to do is consider the consequences of their policy ideas. They are so fanatical and ideological they forget they might get their goal achieved by considering various plans, not just a knee-jerk.
They come in without weapons, on tourist or student visas. That’s legal entry.
P J Evans @ 159
Those aren’t the ones we’re supposed to be worried about at the illegal border entry points. The really dangerous ones might be carrying a backpack nuke or even marijuana.
The potentially dangerous ones who come without weapons are indeed still potentially dangerous, but potentially dangerous is different than Clearly Dangerous.
We’ve tried this out in California a half-dozen times, always ending up in a loss and inflaming the Minutemen wing of the wingnut brigade every time. State Sen. Gil Cedillo is nobly carrying on this cause.
I know that when someone without a license or insurance hit my car a couple years back, I had no recourse whatsoever.
As someone who lives and works in the Capitol Region of New York, I can tell you the Republican ‘outrage’ over the driver’s license deal has almost nothing to do with national security and everything to do with the Republicans trying to throw roadblocks in front of everything Spitzer is trying to accomplish. A number of county DMV clerks are refusing to issue DL’s under the new guidelines – and they’re almost entirely Republican.
The top Republican left in New York State politics is State Senate Majority leader Joe Bruno – and he’s a real piece of work. When Sptizer’s people did a really ham-handed look into what Bruno was doing when he was borrowing a state helicopter for ‘official’ business, Bruno went ballistic. He’s been hiring big name GOP gun slingers on the state’s dime to attack Sptizer, holding Senate hearings, and every other kind of obstruction you can imagine.
According to The Albany Project blog, Joe Bruno will be on Lou Dobbs tonight, and you can guess what he’ll be talking about.
The Albany Project has more on the whole feud, like this piece.
There’s more at the link.
Wow, i just got an email from Amazon – my pre-ordered book “Fair Game” has been shipped!
Having lived in California, licenses are only a small part of the problem. Typically, illegals (at least in California) have no car insurance due to the high cost of insurance and are often very transient making it difficult to find them in the event they are involved in an accident. I consider myself welcoming to immigrants, but granting licenses without enforcing the responsibilitues that go along with driving makes no sense and only creates bigger problems. This is one (and pretty much the only one) area where I agree with the opposition. This is one issue where, perhaps, you had to have been there to understand it.
That this kind of racist nativism is so strong even in a Blue State like NY is truly sobering.